National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon, and welcome to this Plenary meeting of the Senedd. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Laura Anne Jones.

We recognise the importance of linking communities to key hospitals and healthcare facilities. There are a number of bus services to the Grange Hospital, and Transport for Wales will look to link hospitals and other key public services as part of the bus network planning process for bus reform.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, when the Welsh Labour Government decided to close the A&E department at Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny, we were promised that it would still be easily accessible for residents in Abergavenny. Unfortunately, that’s not what happened, because there is no direct bus route now from Abergavenny—quite a significant part of Monmouthshire and the catchment area for the Grange—to the Grange Hospital. And it takes quite a long time, including some walking, for patients or for visitors to go and see their loved ones, or to receive treatment, forcing some people to drive in a not-okay state because that’s the only way that they can get to the hospital. Would you be able to look into that for me, Minister, and assure my residents that they will, if they need to, be able to get to hospital by bus from significant parts of Monmouthshire?

Well, I’m very grateful to Laura Jones for the question, and I am aware of a petition that is live, calling for a direct bus service between Abergavenny and the Grange. I’ve therefore asked my officials to take a look at the feasibility of such a route, of course, in the context of the availability of budgets, but also to work with Transport for Wales in regard to the mapping exercise that’s taking place as part of the regional transport plans.

Minister, the promises that were made by Welsh Ministers when the Grange was being established, of course, were that there would be these public transport links in place to enable people across the region to access services and to visit relatives who are in-patients in the Grange. That has not been delivered—it has not been delivered for my constituents in Blaenau Gwent. And if the Welsh Government takes decisions that lead to the centralisation of services and taking services further away from people, I believe that Welsh Ministers have an absolute responsibility to ensure that people are able to access those services.

Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that a Fflecsi service, based in the Heads of the Valleys, would be a service that could be provided by the Welsh Government to enable people living in Blaenau Gwent to access services in the Grange and to access relatives who they may wish to visit whilst they are in-patients in the Grange?

That could well be a solution, and that’s why we’ve asked Transport for Wales for review opportunities to improve direct bus links to key hospital sites, like the Grange, as part of regional bus planning. I think it’s important to be measured as well in terms of the support that has been made available for public transport to and from the Grange. There was the pilot scheme, of course, that took patients and their visitors from Pontypool and Newbridge and Blackwood, in partnership with Stagecoach. Now, that pilot scheme did not continue, unfortunately, because Stagecoach did not consider it to be commercially viable, and because passenger patronage was relatively low. Now, in terms of the possible solutions for Blaenau Gwent, it’s not just a Fflecsi service that could be a possible solution; there are other areas of activity that we’re looking to roll out across Wales, which could be applicable to Blaenau Gwent, including Fflecsi and community transport, as well as door-to-door services that patients may be eligible for.

With pleasure. The £70 million investment in upgrading the Ebbw Vale line has doubled service frequency and introduced direct services to Newport. Forty thousand extra journeys were made in the first half of this year, and I look forward to more people using this service on a daily basis.

I’m grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary. Now, I’m the proud owner, of course, of a Transport for Wales concessionary card, and I’ve been making great use of this card. Now, were I to run to Ebbw Vale and catch the train that’s leaving in about 10 seconds from now, then I wouldn’t be able to use this on the train to Newport, but if I waited half an hour and caught the 14:05 train, then I would be able to use the concessionary card. If I waited another half an hour, I wouldn’t be able to use the concessionary card, but I would be able to use the concessionary card half an hour after that. Now, that, I would suggest, Cabinet Secretary, is not the best way to run a railway, and I would suggest that it's not the best way to run a concessionary card scheme either. It is time, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that the concessionary card is available on all services down the Ebbw valley line, to ensure that my constituents, and others, are able to use their concessionary card on all the services on this new railway, which we're all looking forward to using.

Well, I'd very much enjoy seeing the Member run to Ebbw Vale to catch the service—I'm sure it's within his abilities. Look, I'd like to thank the Member for raising this issue, and I've spoken with him in private about it. I have already raised it with Transport for Wales, who are addressing not just anomalies with the concessionary fare scheme, but also fare discrepancies across the network, which have been inherited by Transport for Wales. As the Member rightly knows, these are not of Transport for Wales's making. Transport for Wales is there to solve the problem, and I hope that they'll be able to do that.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Can I just extend that wish from the MS for Blaenau Gwent, and say that a review does need to be done into the pricing and costing of tickets, particularly for the issue that was raised by the MS for Blaenau Gwent, but also what I'm just about to say now? Whereas we all, of course, welcome the opening of the new line between Ebbw Vale and Newport—. The project obviously came to fruition because of funding from Welsh Government and the UK Government—[Interruption.] It's a point that's not often made enough. Will you join me in welcoming the fact that a day-return ticket from Ebbw Vale to Newport costs £8.70? However, a day-return ticket from Abergavenny to Newport costs £13.20. These two journeys are almost exactly the same length, made with exactly the same train operator, yet the residents of one town are paying £5.50 more a day to travel than the residents of the other. Can you explain why that is, please? Thanks.

Llywydd, I believe that a technical briefing is necessary for Members on this complicated matter, because the whole fare discrepancy issue was inherited by Transport for Wales from Arriva Trains Wales—so too the issues with the concessionary fare scheme, as well. So, just in brief, to explain to Members with regard to the core Valleys lines, Arriva Trains Wales introduced the third-off measure as a commercial decision. That was a commercial decision—it was not applicable to the subsidy that was provided. It was then subsequently rolled into the Transport for Wales contract, because withdrawing that sort of measure is very, very difficult, as Members, I'm sure, can imagine. I face calls from across Wales to introduce similar schemes everywhere. I think it's absolutely vital, first and foremost, that we look at the discrepancy in fares, which Transport for Wales has been doing since it took over responsibility for the network, and that we also look to a longer term view of how concessionary bus passes can be used in regard to the one network, one ticket, one timetable objective of the Welsh Government. I don't want to rush into this; I think it's absolutely vital that we have a sustainable solution—and this is something that my predecessor worked hard on—to ensure that we have one network, one timetable, one ticket that is applicable for the whole of Wales.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, as you're well aware, the Senedd rarely votes unanimously on one given topic. However, when it comes to fair funding from high speed 2, it's something that we've all agreed on, that Wales is owed consequentials from HS2 to the tune of roughly £4 billion. However, it has recently been confirmed by the new Secretary of State for Wales, and backed up by this Welsh Government, that £350 million is the figure Labour believes it's currently owed, which was explained by the Cabinet Secretary for finance last week as being calculated through, and I quote, 'money already spent' on the project by the UK Government. But the money Wales receives must not be limited to £350 million; we must continue to receive the funding as it is spent, to meet our country's long-term needs. As far as we can see from recent news stories, the First Minister failed to get a commitment from Sir Keir last weekend that Wales would get its fair share of funding. So, what exactly, Cabinet Secretary, is indeed the current benefit of two Labour Governments working together, as we were indeed promised, and how will you be utilising your role to push this much-needed money for Wales? Thank you.

Well, there are a number of examples that I could point to in regard to Labour Governments working together for the benefit of the people that we serve. As the Cabinet Secretary for north Wales, I'd point possibly first and foremost to the announcement that there will be 50 per cent more train services across north Wales in 2026 as a result of decisions that were made jointly by Ministers here and at Westminster. That’s a huge increase—the biggest that I can recall in north Wales.

I think, with regard to HS2, our position has not changed—it has not changed. The current finance Minister and the finance Minister before him both have outlined why the £350 million is a figure attributed to HS2 consequentials. But focusing purely on £350 million actually risks losing the bigger prize, which is a pipeline of enhancements that could amount to much more. And I am absolutely focused on developing a mutually agreed pipeline of enhancements through the Wales board to ensure that we get improvements right across Wales in rail infrastructure. We’ll be meeting, I’m pleased to say, next month, as a Wales rail board. Ministers from UK Government, and I, will be agreeing on that pipeline of enhancements, and then, once we get legislation through at Westminster, we will see the creation of Great British Railways. And through Great British Railways, and the Wales unit that will be right at the heart of that organisation, we will have control over the funding of enhancements to the Wales network. And I think that is going to be a step change from where we are today.

Thank you for the response, Cabinet Secretary, and I do look forward to those updates as time progresses.

Last week, we heard the exciting news that a Welsh company had made a breakthrough with a new innovative solution to address electric vehicle charging outside terraced housing. For anyone who may have missed the headline, Swansea-based Charge Gully have developed technology that allows electric vehicle owners to safely run charging cables from their homes to their vehicles without obstructing pedestrians, with the cables now able to be placed underground within the pavement itself. This will make a huge difference, particularly to those not able to charge their EV directly outside due to limited space, as approximately 27 per cent of houses in Wales are terraced and residents often face this problem. Charge Gully are offering a safe, secure and cheaper way of charging EVs, with an average of £1,000 extra per year spent by those not being able to charge their EV at home. With this exciting new technology set to be rolled out in trials across Wales, Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government going to be doing to capitalise on these sorts of innovative breakthroughs all across Wales? Thank you.

Well, can I thank Natasha Asghar for that question? I’m incredibly interested in new and emerging technologies, especially regarding electric vehicles. I was most impressed recently to read not just of the example from Swansea, but also of the efforts by Toyota, who have a major manufacturing plant in Wales, and their aspirations to produce vehicles with dry solid-state batteries from 2028. That could be a huge, huge benefit not just in environmental terms, but also in terms of range and charging time. I believe that it could lead to ranges of up to 800 or 900 miles from a single charge, which would be astonishing and remove all range anxiety for motorists. But I’m also incredibly interested in the potential of the innovation that the Member has pointed to to address some of the shortfalls in electric vehicle charging at present. And we’re keen to work with any innovators, with research institutions, particularly with the market, because I believe it’s the market that has the innovation and the creativity to solve the sort of problems that the Member has highlighted.

Thank you so much for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I think it’s fair to say that west Wales is often deprioritised when it comes to transport projects, particularly, and perhaps due to the rurality of the area and its less densely populated geographical make-up. However, this is by no means an excuse for poor transport networks. And if you want transport, or public transport, to be a truly viable alternative to cars, this must be reflected in network investments right across Wales. Cabinet Secretary, in west Wales, there is currently a severe shortage of existing train carriages, and single railway tracks are still being used on certain main railway lines. For example, there is a two-carriage train running between Cardiff Central and Milford Haven, which takes about three hours, and anyone travelling at peak times regularly has to stand for at least a significant part of the journey. Yet, your recent statement on rail mentioned west Wales not once, despite mentioning poor links between north Wales and London, even though west Wales, amongst many other transport shortfalls, is struggling with the exact same problem. Even the new Labour MP has been criticising the links between Pembrokeshire and London as, in taking this exact route, he was forced off the train at Port Talbot and into his car, which he said, and I quote, ‘He shouldn’t have to rely on’. So, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions are you having with the UK Government and rail operators about increasing carriages and connectivity between west Wales, Cardiff and further afield to ensure that residents aren’t cut off and tourists disincentivised from coming to Wales? Thank you.

Well, can I assure the Member, first of all, that west Wales is very much in our consideration when it comes to prioritising certain public transport innovations, including, crucially, bus franchising? South-west Wales will go first in the franchising of bus services, and I think that demonstrates our commitment to the region.

In regard to rolling stock, it's an interesting fact that, when we took over the contract in 2018 from Arriva Trains Wales, we inherited 270 train carriages, and by the end of next year, through an £800 million investment, we'll have 484 carriages. We'll go from having one of the oldest fleets to having one of the newest fleets anywhere in Great Britain, and that will be of benefit to every single part of Wales.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch yn fawr. Cabinet Secretary, we've recently heard from your counterpart in Westminster, the Secretary of State for Transport, Louise Haigh. She said that the HS2 railway line is very likely to run to London Euston and that it would make absolutely no sense to have the high-speed route terminate further out from central London. In March 2023, this stretch of line was estimated to cost around £5 billion. What makes absolutely no sense, Cabinet Secretary, is that this spend in London will result in extra funding for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but not for Wales. I know you agree, Cabinet Secretary, that this is unfair funding for Wales surrounding HS2. We've heard that, we've spoken about that, and Natasha was just talking about the consensus in this place around that. Will you be liaising with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to call on the Treasury to make sure that sense prevails and that we will get the consequential for that bit?

I think the Member raises an important point about the viability of HS2 and the common sense or lack of that's been applied to it. The history of HS2, actually, goes back to when consideration was being made about increasing the number of airport take-offs. The number of flights that were going between Manchester and Heathrow, in particular, was of concern, not least because of the environmental impact. So, when they were looking at introducing additional runways, HS2 was offered up as a solution to that. So, it was originally going to run to Manchester Airport to avoid the need for Manchester-to-London trips by plane. It then bloated. It became an ever grander and an ever bigger project, and ultimately, under the previous Government, it collapsed under its own weight.

What I think the new transport Secretary of State is doing is applying common sense. Equally, though, we need common sense to be applied when it comes to the consequential and it being reclassified as an England-only project. That's why we have been very clear in our discussions with UK Government counterparts that we believe a consequential is applicable. But I would say again that we must be more ambitious than just getting £350 million. We need to make sure that, over the long term, we have the investment in our rail network that brings it up to the standard that we deserve in Wales and that we should expect, the sort of standard that we see in other parts of the UK and other parts of Europe.

I'm not sure you agree that we should be getting that bit as well. I agree with you on that, but £350 million is very different from £5 billion or £4 billion, and imagining what that could do to help the legacy of underinvestment in our own railway network. With your new partnership with Great British Railways and what you announced recently, and the historic legacy of underfunding our railway system, do you agree with me that the railway should be devolved fully to Wales, so that we've got control? But what mechanisms could be put in place to make sure that that historic underinvestment isn't a liability that we would have to take on? How are you working with your friends in power in London to make sure that, if you agree that we should be devolving rail, it should be fit for purpose today, rather than something that is inherently not working?

I think Peredur makes a really important point about ensuring that when you take ownership of something it is in good condition. I've compared the rail network in Wales to a classic car. By and large, it's almost always less expensive to purchase a fully restored classic car than one that needs restoration, especially a prized car. Similarly, a rail network is far better to adopt once it's been fully restored. What we are proposing with Great British Railways and the Wales business unit that will be at its heart is an ability to have control over enhancements without necessarily having the ownership at the outset. Because the ownership at the outset, in my view, would not be an asset, it would be a liability. We need to see devolution of rail infrastructure as part of a process, and the process begins with getting that pipeline of enhancements, that investment that is required, and over time building up the network to a twenty-first century standard, and at that point transfer ownership.

You talk about a twenty-first century standard; are we going to have to wait until the twenty-second century for it happen? It would be worth knowing what sort of timescales you’re looking at there and what sort of conversations you’re having on that.

The fundamentals of a public transport system, in my mind, are that it needs to be reliable, it needs to be frequent, it needs to be timely, and it needs to have reasonable fares. Less than 4 per cent of our railway is electrified, you cannot get from Aberystwyth to Cardiff on the train without going into England, and we’ve estimated that we’ve lost 10 per cent to 15 per cent of bus services. There are many more examples of how transport networks are failing across Wales. Meanwhile, the cost of bus and rail services is continuing to go up.

Going back to the original question and whether or not we should be getting that Barnett consequential from the £5 billion estimated spend on that London bit, would you advocate for spending any consequential that comes from HS2 or any rail network on the rail network in Wales?

This is another really interesting question, because it goes to the heart of devolution and the decisions that are made in Wales for Wales. You point to the very fact that, when we get a consequential for whatever portfolio, that money isn’t necessarily then spent on that purpose. It would be for the Welsh Government collectively to decide how a HS2 consequential would be invested in Wales. I could not stand here today and guarantee that all £350 million of that consequential would go into public transport or into rail in particular.

What I think is vitally important, therefore, is that we keep our eyes on the bigger prize, which is that enhancement pipeline of rail investment that will be agreed with Westminster counterparts. I’m hopeful that, as a result of having an ambitious pipeline of investment, we will deliver greater improvements than we have seen in the past 20 years in terms of rail infrastructure in Wales.

But just on the point of why people travel by public transport, you’re absolutely right, reliability is the No. 1 factor. That is why we have seen a huge increase in the number of passengers using Transport for Wales services, because it follows incredible improvements in terms of reliability and punctuality. Ultimately, that has led to a very significant increase in levels of customer satisfaction. I think that should be welcomed on all sides of the Chamber.

We continue to invest heavily in the TrawsCymru bus network in recognition of the key role these services play in providing strategic public transport links across Wales. Transport for Wales are undertaking a strategic review that will examine the effectiveness of existing services and opportunities for further improvements.

Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. You’ll be aware that the changes to the T3, for example, have been in force now for around about a year. And in the year since the T3 changed its timetable, there is no doubt that the quality of life of a number of people, from Llanuwchllyn to Corwen, has declined significantly. Truth be told, I have to give a lift very often to people when I see them in Bala, back home from a doctor’s appointment or from work or from a shopping trip, because they can't catch the bus or have to wait hours until the next bus—not to mention Sundays, when there is no bus service at all. In Llanuwchllyn, there are older people being left at the side of the road and having to walk almost a mile to their homes, which is unreasonable for those with mobility issues or older people, as I'm sure you would agree. There are young people who can’t attend sports clubs after school because the bus doesn't enable them to do that, or they are dependent on private lifts, which means that the use of private vehicles, with the fuel associated with it, is increasing, and it's damaging to the environment. So, it's clear—

A question, please, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

I'll come to my question—thank you, Llywydd. It's clear, therefore, that these changes have failed and we need an assessment. So, will the Cabinet Secretary come to Llandderfel and Llanuwchllyn to see these changes in action, and ensure that the bus service is restored on the old route?

Can I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for raising this vitally important question for so many communities, not just in his constituency, but beyond? I'll declare an interest in this question in that the T3 service also runs through my constituency of Clwyd South, so I'm well aware of the dissatisfaction with the timetable changes that were made and the reliability issues that too many passengers have had to face. I'd very much enjoy a visit to the Member's constituency with him to look at what has happened since the T3 route was altered, and I can assure him that I've asked Transport for Wales to look again at the route, as part of that wider strategic review that they're doing of the whole network. It will involve further consultation in the coming months, and that will be before any timetable changes, route changes, are agreed. And I'll ensure that all Members with an interest in the T3 service are engaged by TfW to ascertain their views.

Cabinet Secretary, the T1 bus is an electric bus that runs from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. It starts its journey from the showground, where it charges its batteries, then it makes its way into Carmarthen for its first pick-up, to pick up patrons. But what used to be a park-and-ride service no longer exists at Carmarthen showground, allowing patrons to park in the showground and get bus access into the town centre. The bus continues to travel that route, yet it's not allowing passengers to travel between the showground and Lammas Street. This is a bit of a weird anomaly, especially when we're advocating for more and more people to use the bus services. Could I ask that you speak with TrawsCymru to see why this is happening? Can we not get patrons onto the bus from the showground, so that they can travel into Carmarthen town, to Lammas Street, or onwards to Aberystwyth, if they so wish?

I'm very grateful to Sam Kurtz for raising this issue. I can assure him that I will ask officials and Transport for Wales to examine this particular problem.

The Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 places duties on local authorities to assess the suitability of travel for learners. For 2024-25, we've allocated over £6 million to local authorities from our Safe Routes in Communities grant for schemes that are specifically aimed at improving conditions for walking, wheeling and cycling to school.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware, with the learner travel Measure, that there had been hope to review and improve the offer. It has led to the fact that many local authorities now are actually changing the eligibility for free home-to-school transport. If you look at Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, for instance, the council has decided to align the eligible distance with Welsh Government guidance—from 2 miles to 3 miles. There's going to be a protest in Pontypridd, organised by parents from across Rhondda Cynon Taf, this coming Saturday, because they're concerned that secondary school pupils who live just under the 3-mile threshold now face walks of over an hour, or have to pay for two public buses, to get to school. Many of these routes are unlit and unsafe, especially as we head into winter when the days are darker and colder. Things have not changed, despite this issue being raised countless times. More young people in my region are finding it increasingly difficult to get to school, or are missing out altogether because there are no buses or they can't afford the price of a ticket. Will the Cabinet Secretary finally take the necessary steps to address this issue and ensure that every pupil has a safe, accessible and affordable route to get to school?

Can I thank Heledd Fychan for her question? I'm minded to propose a debate in Government time on this important subject. It's being raised on numerous occasions in the Chamber, and I think it merits further debate, if Members would agree. Diolch. I think it's important to point to the fact that the transport provision is paid for by councils through the revenue support grant. I think the decisions of local authorities recently demonstrate just how stretched their funds are, they really do, especially when areas of service such as social care are so, so pressing. So, local authorities have my sympathy for the difficult decisions that they're having to make.

Now, reducing the mileage threshold wouldn't necessarily solve many of the problems that Members have raised over this issue, because there are structural challenges that learner transport faces, including the lack of operators that are available, the lack of infrastructure in and around schools as well to cope with an increase in buses that would be required. And of course, it would require a significant sum of money to overcome.

We are taking forward the recommendations of the review. That will improve consistency across Wales, and I'm also looking at convening local authorities, schools, school heads and operators to learn about the good practice that is taking place in Wales. There are examples of schools and local authorities and operators overcoming the challenge of providing provision. Estyn recently highlighted an excellent example, I thought it was, in Swansea. And that example shows what can happen when a secondary school works with a local authority and the local bus operator to negotiate affordable fares for their learners. So, that sort of good practice needs to be not just shared, but rolled out across Wales. So, as I say, I'm looking at convening a summit of local authorities, school heads and operators to do just that. And if Members are in agreement, I think, based on the response I've heard today, I'd be more than happy to bring forward a debate in Government time.

I'm frequently contacted by parents whose children are being left in a vulnerable position by local authorities' strict interpretation of the Welsh Government's Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, which restricts free home-to-school transport to learners of compulsory school age who live 3 miles or further from their nearest suitable school. The measurement they use is often arbitrary. Alternative public transport is often unreliable, leaving children abandoned at bus stops, and practical safe walking routes are usually unavailable.

The most recent example of this, which I've written to you about, applies to pupils from Sychdyn in Flintshire who attend the Alun School in Mold. This is despite the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure stating that, where learners are not entitled to free transport, local authorities have the power to provide transport on a discretionary basis, and defining that a route is only an available route if it is safe for a child without a disability or learning difficulty to walk the route alone, or with an escort if the age of the child would call for the provision of an escort. In addition, therefore, to the actions that you've proposed, which I welcome, how will you monitor and evaluate implementation to ensure, basically, that local authorities have got it, and are doing what they can to assist communities like this?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for providing that example of an inconsistent approach in Wales? And that's why we are taking forward the recommendations of the review—to address those inconsistencies. In terms of monitoring, this is something that Transport for Wales are keen to ensure that they conduct alongside Welsh Government.

We recognise the challenge right across Wales that many learners face right now. As I say, there are structural problems that need to be overcome in order to address those challenges everywhere. But I would point to the forthcoming bus Bill as part of the solution. Being able to control networks, being able to control routes and timetables, will make a significant difference to the provision of transport for learners. It won't solve every problem in its own right, but it will be part of the package of solutions that we wish to drive forward.

Cabinet Secretary, in areas of Newport East such as Ringland, Llanwern, Liswerry and Glan Llyn, pupils walk to the two local high schools, Llanwern and Lliswerry High, alongside and sometimes crossing the very busy southern distributor road, which sees high volumes of traffic travelling at high speed. One option for dealing with those issues is to provide safe active travel routes, and I just wonder what discussions you and your officials have with authorities, including Newport City Council, to make sure that, when there are those issues, safe active travel routes are provided. 

Can I thank John Griffiths for his question? He makes an essential point, that safety is of paramount importance in considering active travel provision. I'm personally not aware of complaints in regard to Lliswerry or Llanwern high schools and the access to them. However, I will ask my officials to engage with the local authority and the schools to understand the scale of the problem and the possible remedies. If I could, I'd like to point to just one example of intervention that is proving to be very, very successful. I'm very proud of this particular scheme. It's delivered by Living Streets. It's the walk to school programme and it will run for the next two years, with funding available from Welsh Government, and it will cover 170 primary schools and 42 secondary schools. I will seek to find out if the two high schools that the Member has identified today are part of that programme. 

Of course, something like a quarter of all school funding goes on the cost of school transport, and one of the recommendations of the review of the learner travel Measure was to look at how more journeys could be made by active travel, and that requires provision of safe routes. And, of course, that has to be part of a network and that needs to be a long-term commitment. It's taken time to build up expertise within Transport for Wales to create a centre of excellence to help local authorities build routes that the local community needs. But there's a danger, if Welsh Government funding for active travel is cut, that all of that progress will be unravelled. Will the Minister commit to making sure there are modal shift targets within the regional transport plans, and that funding for the RTPs are aligned with the modal shift targets that we have in the Wales transport strategy?  

I think Lee Waters makes an important point about maintaining the momentum that we've built over time in regard to modal shift, and corporate joint committees have a statutory requirement to develop regional transport plans that set out policies to implement the Wales transport strategy. And as our guidance makes very, very clear, this includes pursuing modal shift and decarbonisation and, with it, there are targets. Also, my officials and Transport for Wales are supporting corporate joint committees with this work. I think it's vitally important that regional transport plans provide the basis to give local leaders a greater say over how transport funding is spent in their region, but also I would agree that it's vital that we continue to use Transport for Wales and the expertise contained within Transport for Wales to support CJCs and local authorities in delivering their plans against the Wales transport strategy. 

I have recently met with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and he has assured me that improving access to NHS dental services remains a priority, particularly for new patients, of which more than 73,000 have been seen in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board since April 2022.

Thank you for that. You'll be aware, of course, of the closures that we've seen in terms of access to NHS dental services across north Wales of late, and Dant-y-coed in Coedpoeth is the most recent of a long list, sadly. We have a situation now where a family of four potentially will have to pay £400, £500 a year just for check-ups and even more if they need any kind of treatment following that. We know that contracts are an issue. The dentists are telling us that there are issues with the contract between the Government and the sector, but also sufficiency of supply of dentists. You will have heard Plaid Cymru's calls for a dentistry school. I'm wondering whether you support the establishment of that proposition in principle, if not without acknowledging some of the practical challenges. And if you do, then what case are you making within Government to try and realise that ambition? 

Can I thank Llyr for his question? First of all, in regard to the Dant-y-coed practice, I should declare an interest because it is in my constituency. I understand that they were operating under the old model not the reformed model, which avoids recycling healthy patients, and I can assure people in the county borough of Wrexham that there are 11 practices that provide NHS provision. There are opportunities sometimes when contracts are handed back, and we've seen that with Betsi Cadwaladr being awarded £1.5 million of funding to support five practices, one of which is a brand-new practice in Flintshire. And the health board is also currently out to tender for the award of a further £4.5 million across the health board. Contract returns do provide, therefore, an opportunity on occasion. For example, in north Wales, the new academy has in part been able to be developed because contracts have been returned. 

And to the second point that the Member makes, I think the prospect of having a dental school is certainly worth consideration. On principle, I would support the creation of a dental school in north Wales, but we do need the universities and the health boards to work together to develop proposals. That, I believe, is what the health Minister is pushing them to do. And then, if funding is available, we'd be able to move quickly.

Can I join Llyr Gruffydd in identifying the need for a dental school in north Wales? Because you will know, Cabinet Secretary, the difficulties around recruitment are particularly acute in north Wales. In addition to the opportunities around the dental school, it's been welcome to hear the Labour Government in Westminster calling for more collaboration with health services between England and Wales, and particularly that will impact constituents that I represent across Flintshire and Wrexham, some of whom you may represent as well, Cabinet Secretary. So, I'm interested in understanding your thoughts on how that collaboration, you think, could work for those residents in north Wales, and particularly around dental services, and whether you think, in your role as Cabinet Secretary representing north Wales, there are particular opportunities for residents in north Wales, considering the transport links that take place throughout the region.

Sam Rowlands makes a really important point about the porous border: many patients in Wales are provided service in England, just across the border. So, any collaboration that can take place that would lead to better outcomes for patients, regardless of where they seek their provision, should be welcomed. Now, I'm not an expert in the new contract, but my understanding, my basic understanding, about the reform contract is that it frees up capacity by avoiding the recycling of healthy patients for regular check-ups, and instead it prioritises need over the recycling process that used to take place under the old contract. If that could be applied in England, I think we'd see more capacity released, which, in those cases of people who do seek their service in England, would be very much welcomed.

And I think, in terms of the point made about transport, we're working through the likes of Growth Track 360 to identify how we can improve public transport networks across the Mersey-Dee area.

Well, 'Llwybr Newydd', our transport strategy, sets out our vision and priorities for all parts of Wales, including Brecon and Radnorshire, and our national transport delivery plan and the regional transport plans being developed by corporate joint committees will set out how it will be delivered.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Many people who live in my part of the world do feel that there is plenty of investment that goes in to the south Wales Valleys, but, actually, no investment into my constituency. We've got a major transport link that links my constituency to Adam Price's constituency between Trecastle and Llandovery—that road does not have any bus service on it whatsoever. That is an actual major tourist link back and forth between west Wales and mid Wales, and I think it would be beneficial to put that transport link in place to actually open up different parts of the country, so people don't have to get in their cars and actually can get on a bus to travel around the country. I've asked previous Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers about this and nothing seems to be happening. So, now you're in post, and you seem a pragmatic gentleman, will you actually step up to the plate and deliver these transport links between my constituency and Adam Price's constituency, because many people are asking for it, and I've got all faith in you, Ken, that you can deliver it?

I can't possibly not help the Member after his very kind and generous comments. The bus system is broken at the moment, and that's why we're bringing forward the bus Bill. Operators, they pick off those routes that are commercially attractive and they leave huge gaps elsewhere, including the gap that the Member has rightly identified today. Therefore, I will invite Transport for Wales to work with my officials to look at whether a service could be introduced, perhaps a TrawsCymru service, whether it would be applicable. Of course we're operating in very, very financially straitened times, but I will ask for work to be done and I'll report back to the Member.

Well, I look forward to it.

Well, we undertake proactive consultations with key stakeholders before major roadworks, and this is supported by various forms of communications to inform and update the public, particularly on the more disruptive long-term projects. This allows the travelling public to plan their journeys on the strategic road network well in advance.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. We have corresponded, and I know we've spoken, on the issues of the upcoming closure of the A470 at Talerddig for repair works on the retaining wall on the trunk road. Now, the works themselves are very much needed and long overdue, however the concern for me, the community and affected businesses is the complete road closure for up to seven weeks. I appreciate that your officials have liaised with local community leaders in recent weeks, but this plan has only just been made public ahead of the closure at the end of the month. The official diversion is a 70-mile route, which will cause significant disruption, and, of course, further disruption and chaos on smaller roads as well.

So, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary, what options have been considered to keep one lane open during working hours? Can further consideration be given to cutting into the woodland opposite the collapsed wall for a temporary road to be in place? I understand Natural Resources Wales had some issues with this, but I have corresponded with them myself. Can works be carried out 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to complete the work more quickly? And what update can you give on how emergency services and school transport could be supported in this time as well? I look forward to your answer being pragmatic, Cabinet Secretary.

Well, can I thank the Member for highlighting this particular challenge and say to his constituents that I fully appreciate the frustration that the work is causing or will cause? It relates to a retaining wall. I'm afraid the work has to be done as an emergency, and I know that the Member would agree and I know that all community leaders would agree. I did interrogate thoroughly the options, I can assure the Member, and also the length of the diversion. I'll provide a full briefing in writing, if I may, and I'll share that with all Members with an interest in this particular route. Unfortunately, we were not able to proceed with the single-lane option for safety reasons, and I understand that the option of cutting into the forest and creating a temporary road was also examined, but ruled out for various reasons. I know that officials are liaising with Powys County Council and other stakeholders to reduce disruption and provide replacement services for public and school transport, but I will provide a detailed response to the Member in writing.

Of course. With over £1 billion of investment to upgrade the core Valleys lines, Transport for Wales have transformed the Treherbert line, replacing Victorian-era signalling, installing overhead-line electrification and upgrading stations. Brand-new electric trains will run on the transformed core Valleys lines later this year, making metro-style services a reality.

Thank you. I know that the transformation up until now has been bittersweet for residents. Catching rail replacement buses for months, road closures, and hearing work up and down the line through the nights has been challenging, but the Rhondda railcard, station modifications, and the infrastructure for the electrification, ready for new stock, has more than made up for this. I'd like to place on record my thanks to all the construction workers, Transport for Wales, the Welsh Government and to residents for their patience. I can't wait to see a greener, quicker and more reliable service on the Treherbert line; it's the service that residents deserve. I know residents are eager to know, as I am, when we can expect to see the new stock on the line and whether you have any updates regarding the transport hub in Porth, please.

Well, can I thank Buffy for her supplementary question and for the way that she's championed over many years the need to improve public transport in her constituency? Can I also thank residents, who have shown incredible patience over quite a significant period of time when the disruption has taken place? But the prize will be worth it, and I'm pleased to be able to inform Buffy today that the prize will come in time for Christmas, because brand-new electric trains will be coming into service in December on the Treherbert line; they'll be on every service on the line early next year. These new electric trains, they really do offer an enormous upgrade for passengers compared to the legacy fleet that we are replacing. There's more capacity, they're more comfortable, there are far better facilities as well—completely different to what the travelling public have experienced on that particular line. The new trains are planned to begin service on the Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil lines from this November. Now, I can also assure the Member that Transport for Wales are working very closely with Rhondda Cynon Taf to open Porth interchange as soon as possible, and I'll ask them to provide you with an update on the timescale and the latest position.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much for your question. Public transport is essential for many people the length and breadth of Wales, and it's crucial that the services are accessible to all. I'm pleased to be able to work alongside the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to ensure that it's a reality across Wales, including on Anglesey.

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response? It's a shame that the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales hadn't realised that question number 1 in the next session involved him, but I'm sure that—

If I may interrupt the Member, these are questions for the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, that's the question that you put on the agenda, so—

That's completely right, yes, with regard to her relationship with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. And in encouraging people to use public transport, we have to ensure that people can use public transport. At Llanfairpwll rail station, in my constituency, the only way to reach the platform to catch a train to Holyhead is to go over a bridge. There is a very long, dark path that's inappropriate for wheelchairs and prams and so on, but if you do have a wheelchair or a pram, you can't, practically, get to the platform on the other side. The simple solution is to construct a lift, and I know that there is a broad-ranging programme across Wales of installing lifts. So, will the Cabinet Secretary commit to work with the Minister for transport to bring that investment to Llanfairpwll, so that people can access services, in the name of social justice and fairness, as well as the practical reasons with regard to transport and climate change and so on?

Thank you very much, Rhun ap Iorwerth. It's a very important issue, I think.

It is clear that we have to ensure that all people can access a public transport, and the Welsh Government is committed to developing accessible, high-quality, responsive services, particularly, for example, not to just meet the needs of disabled people, but everyone, in terms of access and safety as well, particularly with the description you've made of how to access the local station.

This is something where there is responsibility that is shared between Transport for Wales and Network Rail, in terms of the programme across Wales, particularly for accessible lifts in stations and access to stations. There is £2 million allocated to Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn to invest in their local transport priorities, but, certainly, this is something that the disability equality forum has raised with us. They've had, also, through our disability rights taskforce, a working group on travel, and I will take this back to see what can be done to assist in progressing this important access point for local people.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm grateful to Rhun ap Iorwerth for raising this issue, which is particularly impacting his constituents on Ynys Môn, but there are, of course, broader issues around public transport for people with disabilities, because we know that disabled people often are the ones who use public transport and rely on public transport more than others. Indeed, a recent report from the charity Sense said that 72 per cent of people with complex disabilities use some form of public transport on a day-to-day basis. I was really pleased that, earlier this year, the UK Government announced an extensive support for disabled bus users, with almost £5 million being made available to install and improve audible and visual announcements on buses throughout Great Britain. So, Cabinet Secretary, I'd be interested to know how you are ensuring that bus companies in Wales are making the most of that £5 million that's been made available, to ensure that people with disabilities have the ability to access those buses in the best and safest way possible.

Thank you very much, Sam Rowlands. That's also critically important in terms of access for all, but particularly access for disabled people. This, of course, includes access to buses and supportive bus infrastructure. Of course, that includes ramps, raised-kerb bus stops, tactile paths. They really do foster real access for disabled people. But also, I think what's important is that the accessible information regulations were introduced this month, and these new rules actually do make the provision of audible and visible information a requirement on local services across Great Britain, and will help people to travel with confidence. So, it is mandatory for the majority of local bus and coach services to incorporate that information provision, improving that journey experience for all passengers, but including, particularly, as raised today, disabled passengers. And of course, we do have grants and financial support through the infrastructure upgrade work to routes on the TrawsCymru network and those various Welsh Government grants as well. This is all, I would say, part of ensuring that our active travel programmes take into account the needs of disabled people.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for that question. The Secretary of State for the Department for Work and Pensions has written to me, setting out the range of actions the UK Government are taking to increase take-up of pension credit. We're working with DWP and other key stakeholders in a co-ordinated push to increase take-up in Wales.

Well, that's useful to know, that there is a range of options. Age Cymru are saying that, this year, nearly nine in 10 pensioners in Wales living in poverty will not get a winter fuel payment, and some of them are not aware they're eligible for pension credit, so they of course will doubly lose out, and that research is borne out by the conversations I've been having with constituents. Many of them absolutely don't know what they get and whether it includes pension credit.

So, I was very interested to see that the DWP wrote a letter to a sample of nearly 2,500 pensioner households they thought might be eligible for pensioner credit. It prompted nearly three in 10 to apply for that pension credit. So, I was hoping that this is in the range of options that the UK Government is considering. And can you tell us what steps the Welsh Government is taking, working with the UK Government, to proactively contact these people who are eligible for pension credit and therefore the winter fuel allowance, so that they are applying before the cut-off date of 21 December?

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. It's critically important that we get this information out now, as you say, of the cut-off date of 21 December. When I wrote to the Secretary of State at the Department for Work and Pensions, originally, to say we wanted to engage with them and what were they doing, she replied to say that they were writing directly to 120,000 households across the UK. I then drilled that down: 'Well, what does that mean for Wales?' It includes 6,600 in Wales getting that direct letter. That is using existing data, and of course data sharing is at the heart of tackling this, for those who are entitled to pension credit. Those letters are coming out imminently, and we'll be informed of progress.

I've asked for an inter-ministerial group on work and pensions, which I will be chairing, because it's about inter-governmental agreement between ourselves and the inter-ministerial group. Also, just to say that clearly we're doing a great deal in terms of our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, Citizens Advice, the single advice fund, actually to take up the benefits. We've got pension credit, we've got access information, the pension credit posters in GP surgeries, vaccination centres, pharmacies, and places where people go on a regular basis, and we're doing everything that we can for all family members to also ask the question. I was very interested that, in a recent surgery, someone came to see me about something else, and I just said, 'Have you applied for pension credit?' She said, 'Oh, yes, and my neighbour, and I'm telling everyone else,' so there is word on the street, as well, which is good, because this shows a recognition that this should be an entitlement.

Cabinet Secretary, the perverse decision by the UK Government to axe the winter fuel payment to tackle a fictitious financial black hole will force many older pensioners further into poverty. The only silver lining to Labour's cruel policy will be persuading tens of thousands of pensioners to claim the benefits to which they're entitled. The net effect of this will end up costing the UK Treasury billions rather than saving money. Sadly, this will do little for those just above the benefits threshold who will still face a choice between heating and eating. What actions will your Government take to mitigate the worst impact of UK Labour's raid on pensioners?

Thank you, Altaf Hussain. I've already outlined quite a few ways in which we are working closely with the UK Government to ensure that people who are eligible do take up the pension credit in order not only to enable them to be eligible for the winter fuel payment, but actually to open the door to other benefits as well. I was pleased to meet with the new Older People's Commissioner for Wales on Monday with the Minister for Children and Social Care. We spent quite a bit of time discussing this, because you’ll recall that the predecessor older people’s commissioner really did take this pension credit campaign—. Quite apart from access to the winter fuel supplement and payment, it really is something where we have too many people—pensioners—who aren’t taking up the benefit themselves.

And I think it is interesting that people are responding to the changes in the winter fuel payment eligibility criteria, as I’ve mentioned—just my anecdotal mention. We’ve got a stakeholder group meeting fortnightly with the Department for Work and Pensions. The older people’s commissioner has got a strong connection with older people, getting that message over. Age Cymru is on that group and the Welsh Local Government Association. And there has been 152 per cent increase in pension credit claims in the eight weeks from July to September, compared with the previous eight weeks. So, I think it’s really important information that those pension credit claims are actually increasing and that will, of course, be a gateway. Because also, it’s a gateway to help with council tax bills, paying rent, free NHS dental treatment and free tv licences for the over-75s, so we need to ensure—. And through our Welsh benefits charter, which is trying to help ensure that there’s one access to benefits, we are working to take this forward, and, of course, learning also the good outcomes from the Neath Port Talbot Policy in Practice case study.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, data shows that, in England and Wales, there are almost 3,000 domestic abuse and sexual violence crimes recorded against women and girls daily, making up nearly 20 per cent of all crimes recorded. Worryingly, violence against women and girls has risen by 37 per cent over recent years, and now at least one in every 12 women will be a survivor of domestic violence or sexual abuse, which is a truly horrific statistic. And, sadly, the actual number is likely to be even higher. However, despite this rise in violence against women and girls, it is believed that less than 24 per cent of domestic abuse cases are actually reported to the police. Cabinet Secretary, as outlined by the national policing statement 2024, there is clearly an urgent and critical need to address this and the need for immediate and co-ordinated action across all sectors to help protect women and girls. With this in mind, what is the Welsh Government doing to increase public awareness and to challenge norms and attitudes that perpetuate violence against women and girls? And what is the Welsh Government doing to enforce a coherent and robust whole-system approach that involves collaboration between statutory agencies, charities and the private sector? Thank you.

Well, I thank Joel James very much for that question. I was only reflecting last night that the amount and the extent and the prevalence of domestic violence is just utterly terrible—it's shocking. And, of course, it is a societal problem, which requires societal response. And it is, as you say, about raising awareness, challenging attitudes, changing behaviours of those who behave abusively. Just to reassure you, we have got our Welsh Government violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, and what's important about that is that it's got a national partnership board, it's ministerially led—I co-chair it with police and crime commissioner Emma Wools, on behalf of policing in Wales. Because this is where it's important that the criminal justice partners have that power and influence and responsibilities, and link across directly with the Welsh Government in terms of our commitments to funding and policy for social justice. So, we have got that high-level action plan, with a range of ways in which we're not only seeking to improve women's safety, but we've got work streams working on every aspect of domestic violence and abuse. And can I also just acknowledge the work of the Equality and Social Justice Committee on their inquiry into a public health approach to preventing gender-based violence, which, of course, again, is really important in terms of those recommendations—that we look at ways in which we can tackle these issues.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The recent announcement by the UK Labour Government to release prisoners after serving only 40 per cent of their sentence is a policy that poses serious risks, particularly for abuse survivors, who are already facing a lack of communication within the criminal justice system. Moreover, I believe that this policy sets a dangerous precedent that skews public opinion towards the belief that the UK is soft on criminals, which will, in no doubt, reduce the likelihood of people reporting crime, and, ultimately, lead to increased crime. Welsh Women's Aid have expressed their deep concern about this policy on the grounds that the early release of prisoners, at a time when His Majesty's Inspectorate of Probation is already stretched, leads to the risk that many survivors may not be told when their former abuser is considered for release. Alarmingly, most probation delivery units were classified as 'inadequate' in 2023-24, the lowest possible rating, and only three services were 'sufficient' in assessing the risk of serious harm. Welsh Women's Aid is further urging the Government to carefully reconsider this policy and to prioritise the safety and well-being of survivors. Early release of prisoners could have a devastating consequence for survivors of violence against women and girls. I think it's clear for all to see that this policy risks the safety and well-being of survivors and increases the fear amongst them that their former abusers will be back on the streets. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what pressure have you put upon the new Labour UK Government to reverse its policy? Thank you.

Thank you for that question. Of course, justice is currently a reserved matter, and many of the services that are central to operating our adult and youth justice, in terms of the secure estate, probation services, in terms of the impact of decisions that are made at a criminal justice level, actually, are devolved to us. So, we seek not just to take responsibility, but to work very closely with HMPPS, His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service. So, I have been reassured by meetings that I've held with the Minister, Lord Timpson, and also, most recently, last week, with the Minister Alex Davies-Jones, who's responsible for not only victims, but violence against women and domestic abuse. So, I was very reassured, in terms of the early release scheme, that Alex Davies-Jones met with third sector providers in Wales. Before the September first early release cohort, she met with Welsh Women's Aid and other organisations, and, in fact, I also met with the criminal justice partners, to be reassured that there was going to be every responsibility taken in terms of release, and that there was a victim contact scheme as well. So, it is something where we need to work together, and I have been reassured that, in Wales, people have been protected, particularly in terms of the situation of risk in terms of early release and domestic abusers.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The UK Labour Government has announced that legal advocates for female survivors of violence and sexual abuse are going to be in every police force in England and Wales in order to advise survivors from the moment of report to trial. However, as the Cabinet Secretary will be aware, according to their manifesto, Labour plan to fund these legal advocates through the redirecting of police and crime commissioner grants for victims services, meaning that funding will be taken from one area that supports survivors of violence against women and girls and placed into another, and offering no overall improvement to the support survivors receive. Survivors of domestic and sexual abuse face countless challenges at all levels of the civil and criminal justice system, most notably where there is a lack of trust when reporting incidents to authorities, and the delay that survivors often face when waiting for what can be a very traumatic trial, further eroding any trust that they may have in the system. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what conversations has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government on implementing the recommendations from the harm panel report to address the deep-rooted systemic concerns with how the courts identify and respond to domestic abuse? Thank you.

Well, thank you for that question. I’ve already met with Alex Davies-Jones, MP, who’s the Minister for victims and tackling domestic violence and violence against women. She’s in the Home Office, and, of course, we also have Jess Phillips in the Ministry of Justice. And, as social justice Cabinet Secretary, I’m working closely with both of those Ministers in the UK Government to address these issues.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Inequality remains a significant challenge that hinders not only individual potential, but the collective well-being of our country. The most recent report into the well-being of Wales, published at the end of last month, highlighted some very concerning inequalities that continue to exist and to deepen within our society. In it, the chief statistician reports on the evidence that shows that people who experience deprivation are likely to face poorer outcomes. On mental well-being, the gap between the most and least deprived areas has widened, and, perhaps most shockingly, the report states the gap in avoidable mortality between the most and least deprived areas is now at its highest level since 2003 for males, and since the series of the well-being reports began for females. This next year will see us mark 10 years since the passing of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Do you agree with the findings of this report that, in my opinion, demonstrate that the Welsh Government are failing to meet their seven well-being goals, and that the Act has not ensured sufficient action on tackling inequality? And how will this urgent work be prioritised in the forthcoming budget?

Thank you, Sioned Williams, for that really important question, because it is something that I think we can all be proud of in this Senedd, in our Welsh Parliament, that we did bring forward the well-being of future generations Act. And, of course, it is now, six years on from the implementation of that Act, that we are implementing, and responsible for implementing. And, of course, you have to look at that well-being report and see how much needs to be done in terms of ensuring that the well-being of future generations agenda is actually driving continuous improvement across the Government, and how public bodies work, and how they are delivering on those goals and actions. So, I think what is important is that, with our well-being of future generations commissioner, we are now looking at not just future trends in terms of the work that is being undertaken, but, actually, how we are delivering on the UN sustainable development goals, for example. And the future generations commissioner has championed successes and lessons learned from the well-being of future generations Act, and is taking this forward in terms of recognition across the world of what we are seeking to do. But it’s here in Wales that we need to demonstrate that difference.

Diolch. The well-being of Wales report clearly demonstrates for me that tackling poverty is the key to improving inequalities. Trussell’s latest report, published last week, shows that the number of people facing hunger and hardship—that is, the number of people who are likely to need to turn to a foodbank now and who are at high risk of needing foodbanks in the future—is at record levels in Wales: 420,000 people and children most at risk, and 23,000 more people across Wales are projected to face hunger and hardship by 2026-27 if nothing changes. The report also shows that work is not providing a reliable route out of hardship, with the experience of going without the essentials equally common for households receiving universal credit who are in work and out of work. The report analyses a range of policy options available to both the UK and Welsh Governments, and finds one of the most effective would be to remove the two-child limit and benefit cap. This would reduce the number of people at risk of hunger and hardship in Wales by 25,000. It also recommends emulating the Scottish child payment. Trussell say that the discretionary assistance fund, although valuable in a crisis, isn't sufficient to stop families going without food. Do you agree with Trussell that the UK Government must act on the evidence on its options for change? And how will the Welsh Government act to end the rising need for foodbanks in our communities?

Thank you very much for your very important question. 

Of course, tackling poverty is a key priority of this Government, and it's across Government—all Ministers integrating activity to tackle poverty and how we support vulnerable households to mitigate the impact of poverty. On Monday, I spoke at a child poverty conference. One of the important speakers who I was able to hear was the speaker who spoke about the local food partnerships. Katie Palmer runs Food Sense Wales, which we are funding across the whole of Wales to try and not just fund foodbanks, but, actually, to tackle—. In every constituency and every county there is a food co-ordinator looking at how we tackle food poverty, but also linking it to all of the schemes that have been developed through the curriculum with schools, with community growing, and working with farmers as well to tackle food poverty.

But, of course, what people need—and all these reports are clear—is money in their pockets. I am very glad that I've been doing work, following our co-operation agreement, and, indeed, this year's budget, looking at those child payments made in Scotland. We haven't got the powers, but we are looking at the experience of that. But also, I'm very clear that our Welsh benefits charter is a route to getting our children and families the funding and support they need. Also, in fact, the other speaker on Monday who was important was Councillor Anthony Hunt, talking about the ways in which they are now channelling, through the Welsh benefits charter, one route to accessing free school meals, the school essentials grant, the council tax reduction scheme and the education maintenance allowance. What we need to do is ensure there's one route in to getting the money that people and families need in order to tackle enduring poverty, which, of course, we want to address. We haven't got all the powers, but we want to address it. 

You don't have all the powers, and I take it that you won't be urging the Chancellor to scrap that two-child cap in the forthcoming budget, which is disappointing, considering all this evidence in all these reports.

According to a new report by Citizens Advice Cymru, the demand for crisis support has reached unprecedented levels. Comparing the first eight months of 2022 and the first eight months of 2024, they've seen a 17 per cent rise in the number of people coming to them in crisis situations. An adviser quoted in the report said they used to see maybe 20 foodbank cases a week, and now they are seeing at least 20 a day. 

These recent reports from Trussell and Citizens Advice bring to light the stark and troubling reality of inequality and poverty. What's really concerning is that a significant portion of those struggling are in employment, showing simply having a job doesn't provide protection from hardship without adequate social security support. This directly challenges the assumptions made by the First Minister and the Prime Minister last week. Employment isn't always the key to reducing poverty.

Cabinet Secretary, in the absence of action from the UK Labour Government to reverse Tory welfare policies, which deepen and entrench poverty, will the Welsh Government, in line with the calls made by Citizens Advice Cymru, be protecting funding for the discretionary assistance fund in the forthcoming budget? And will it boost the allocation for the financial year in order to meet the rising need for crisis support?

Thank you for that question. I was very glad that we were discussing these questions yesterday in response to the children's commissioner's report, and answering the questions that were put to me about how we were tackling child poverty. I think one of the important things in terms of the evidence is it is about social security policies that can and do lift children and their families out of poverty. Obviously, that is not within our gift as a Welsh Government, although we’re doing what we can in terms of our access to benefits. I remember meeting with the Bevan Foundation in the early days of my having this portfolio and they were saying, ‘If we could get families to take up the Healthy Start vouchers’. In fact, Lynne Neagle, when she had the role, managed to get health visitors trained and we massively increased access to Healthy Start vouchers—not Welsh Government but UK Government funding. I am pleased that I am, within the next two or three hours, meeting Liz Kendall and Bridget Phillipson. They are co-chairing the child poverty taskforce for the UK Government, and I will be able to then discuss these issues. But I can assure you that I’m doing everything I can to protect the discretionary assistance fund, to look at the impact of it this year in terms of the spend and to protect it for next year as well.

Thank you very much. In Wales, 29 per cent of children were living in relative income poverty, after housing costs, in the financial years ending 2021 to 2023. Ending child poverty must be a shared priority. We will take a leadership role in co-ordinating action to work towards eradicating child poverty and its impacts here in Wales.

Thank you for that.

I know you're aware of the appalling statistic that was uncovered by the Child Poverty Action Group recently that 10,000 children, as we’ve heard, have fallen into poverty since Labour took power in Westminster just a few short months ago. That, of course, is because of the two-child benefit cap. Human Rights Watch have called it cruel. I don’t wish to make you squirm, Cabinet Secretary, but you just told us that tackling poverty is a key priority of your Government. Will you call, therefore, on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to scrap the two-child benefit cap in the budget? Because it is responsible for plunging over 100 children a day into poverty.

This is a question that obviously is very current and topical at the moment. Indeed, I know the First Minister has answered this question as well. You will be aware that the UK Government has got a child poverty taskforce, and I’ve just mentioned the fact that I’m meeting with the two Cabinet Secretaries who themselves are co-chairing that taskforce. Clearly, these are issues that we are discussing with the UK Government, but I think the point for us here, and it goes back to the questions from Sioned Williams, is what we are doing with our partners to deliver the child poverty strategy here in Wales. 

I’m very encouraged by the fact that, at our child poverty conference on Monday, not only did we talk about the impact of the single advice fund, which is reaching—. For example, in north Wales, over 19,000 people have access to single advice fund services, and £5 million of extra welfare benefit income. It is getting money in people’s pockets, as you know, that we need to take forward. But also we have made some funding available to organisations to help them tackle child poverty. You’ll be interested to hear that, in north Wales, we’ve got the Actif North Wales place-based approach pilot. It’s a community development approach. This is about communities in Wales, local authorities, third sector—they are all coming to us with these projects and saying, ‘Can you fund them? We think this is going to help tackle child poverty.’ So, we have that responsibility here in Wales to help them take those projects forward.

As mentioned during the children’s commissioner debate yesterday, it was regretful that the Welsh Government in 2016 abolished the target for eradicating child poverty by 2020. The Welsh Government has deliberately avoided including measurable targets in the child poverty strategy. Just because the targets have been abolished, it does not mean that Members will not scrutinise the Government on its failure to grapple with child poverty, which is running close to 30 per cent in Wales currently.

There is a dereliction of duty by the standards of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Wales is behind Scotland and Northern Ireland, and significantly behind many other European countries when it comes to child poverty, and this is not acceptable when we know that we can do better. Like so many other strategies and action plans under successive Welsh Labour Governments, there is consistently a disappointing failure in delivery. After 25 years of a Labour Government in Wales, child poverty levels have not decreased at the rate they should, and therefore new thinking is required. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree to publish a statement on levels of child poverty in Wales that commits to reintroducing measurable targets and sets out a clear plan for delivery? Thank you.

I do find it very hard to keep my cool when we have faced 14 years of austerity and we face a £22 billion black hole, which the new UK Government is now having to deal with. I do find it hard to—[Interruption.]

Cabinet Secretary, two seconds. I would like to hear the response from the Cabinet Secretary, and there are voices from all sides of the Chamber that are not letting me do so. Please allow me to hear the response. 

I just wanted to briefly and quietly say: did we have foodbanks before the coalition Government took over? [Interruption.] We had nothing—nothing compared with the food poverty that our children and young people are facing today. So, yes, we have a long way to go in terms of working with our UK Government. And isn't it good, don't you agree that it's a good sign, that I am meeting the Secretaries of State for work and pensions and education this afternoon? I would never have got near one of your former Ministers to have such a discussion about tackling child poverty.

Diolch, John Griffiths. Since the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' was launched two years ago, we have laid significant structural foundations for improving outcomes for ethnic minority people in Wales, including an external accountability group, which holds us to account. 

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. In Newport, we're lucky to have Age Alive, a charity that serves as a network for older black and minority ethnic people in the Newport area. This year, they celebrate their tenth anniversary. They organise activities for their members, allowing them to make friendships and connections, and also highlight issues that are faced by their membership with regard to the ongoing prejudice and discrimination that sadly is still with us today. Their chair, Roy Grant, has actually written a book about the history of immigration and community cohesion in Newport, particularly with regard to the Windrush generation and the challenges and experience that they faced. This group, then, Cabinet Secretary, is doing an awful lot of very good work, and I wonder—I'm sure it will—whether Welsh Government will recognise that and look at how it supports groups like Age Alive with the very good work that they do in the community and their plans to do even more. 

Thank you very much for drawing this to our attention today. This is just one example of many across Wales of ways in which organisations and community groups like Age Alive in Newport are actually working so effectively to champion diversity, tackle prejudice and discrimination and promote social inclusion for black, Asian and minority ethnic people over 50 in the area. I'd like to hear more about their work. I'd also like to have a look at that book as well. But can I also just draw attention to the fact that, earlier on today, I visited a minority ethnic community health fair here in Cardiff, and very similar projects have been developed in Cardiff as well. And I think, across Wales, it is useful to see how the third sector, particularly, I have to say, initiatives like Age Alive in Newport, are doing such tremendous work that is at the forefront of how we deliver our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'.

Thank you for that question, John. Firstly, I want to say that the Welsh Conservatives are firmly against racism and all forms of hate and bigotry. This has no place in society, and there should be zero tolerance for antisemitism, Islamophobia and all hate crimes.

The escalating crisis in the middle east has led to the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent people. The situation is catastrophic and, sadly, also affects many people in Wales who have friends and relatives in the region affected. Furthermore, this has escalated extreme hate and appalling racism directed towards Jewish and Muslim people in their Welsh communities, simply because of their faith. The Welsh Government attempted many times over the last 25 years to end discrimination, but ordinary Jewish and Muslim people continue to feel anxious, concerned for their safety, and, unfortunately, believe that this is just a part of normal life.

My question is: what is the Welsh Government doing to tackle prejudice and foster good relations between the Jewish and Muslim communities in Wales? How is the Welsh Government supporting Jewish and Muslim faith leaders and grass-roots charities?

Thank you very much for the important question.

It’s so important, and we also recognise that that’s a very important question, because we are in Wales hate crime week this week. In fact, I spoke at the Wales hate crime support network yesterday and I spoke at that event about the fact that, arguably, 2024’s been a year like no other in recent memory. We saw the riots in England and Northern Ireland having an impact on people in Wales, people from different ethnic minorities, backgrounds—Muslims, in particular, are feeling fearful they will become targets, from the summer events, but also the heart-wrenching conflict, as you say, across the middle east has also left Welsh community members from different groups feeling very fearful, and, in fact, there has been an uplift, unfortunately, of hate crime based on one’s faith and religion.

So, it’s really important, as I said yesterday, that Wales has no place for hate, and I think this is where we can come together to express that. We do know there are reports of hate crime targeted towards Jewish and Muslim communities in Wales. The key point yesterday we were making at the Wales Hate Support Centre is that people encourage people to report any hate incidents and they can contact the police or the Wales Hate Support Centre, run by Victim Support, but I’m grateful for that question.

Thank you very much, Adam Price. The Welsh Government has taken many steps to support diversity and increase participation in politics. Increasing diversity is everyone’s responsibility, and we will continue to work with partners to deliver a more diverse democracy.

Over the weekend at the Plaid Cymru conference, it was a pleasure for me to be able to honour Stuart Neale, who was the first openly LGBT+ person to stand for election in the name of Plaid Cymru, in 1972. It took 29 years, then, for us to elect the first LGBT+ person on a national level—namely me—and then, 23 years after that, I’m still the only one ever to be elected as an openly gay man in Plaid Cymru, which shows how important this work is.

Now, as the Government is looking at guidance on the election of a diverse range of people to this place and, under the new powers under the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, to encourage and support underrepresented groups, will the Cabinet Secretary be willing to meet Plaid Pride, which represents the LGBT+ community in my party, but also the other groups, in terms of disability, BME, the women’s group, and equivalent groups in other parties, to ensure that we can have the greatest possible diversity represented in our democracy? 

Thank you very much, Adam Price, and thank you for marking the contribution of Stuart Neale.

It is important that we share that and that you shared that with us today. Just to reassure you and Members that, with the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 requiring us to issue guidance to support all political parties in considering the actions that they can take to improve diversity of candidates at the next election, we are already meeting with LGBT+, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller, black, Asian and ethnic minority communities to work with them to draft the guidance. That includes Pride, it includes Stonewall Cymru, Disability Wales and all of those who are representing black, minority ethnic groups as well. There is an opportunity, and I hope everyone across this Chamber will engage in that consultation. In fact, I look forward, with the First Minister, to attending the women's caucus, chaired by Joyce Watson, and attended by women across the Chamber, next week to discuss this.

Thank you, Darren Millar. We're working to ensure people in Conwy and Denbighshire, and throughout Wales, claim every pound to which they're entitled. Our 'Claim what's yours' Advicelink Cymru helpline is helping pensioners to find out about and access financial support, including pension credit.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, but I'm afraid that that answer does not satisfy the people in Conwy and Denbighshire that I represent. Some 30,000 people across those two local authority areas are expected to lose out on winter fuel payments this year, and, frankly, they are bitterly disappointed in the response of the Welsh Government to this crisis, and it is a crisis for many of them, who will struggle to pay their bills. They feel let down. They feel let down by you, Cabinet Secretary, personally, and by the UK Government. You haven't been calling sufficiently well on the UK Government to reverse the impact of these cuts, you don't seem to be able to find money within your own budgets to create a Welsh Government fuel payment to replace the impact of the payments that are being lost, yet you seem to have plenty of money for all sorts of other things that we don't need to spend money on. Back in August, you actually said yourself that pensioners risk being pushed into fuel poverty by the cut, and we know that that is the case. Why aren't you making any progress in addressing this issue and when can we expect you to be rattling the cage at the doors of the Treasury to make sure that pensioners in Wales don't face these terrible and cruel cuts this winter?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I don't intend to go over all of the actions that we've already taken. I've answered this question more than once, but I'm going to add a couple more points and ways in which we are trying to help people. The one key thing, I think, is the unique partnership we've got with the Fuel Bank Foundation, since June 2022. Your Government, the UK Government, never entertained a partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation, I have to say. They did in Scotland, they did in Wales, not in England. That heat fund helps off-grid households in crisis with the bulk purchase of fuel, and it is important for people to know about the Fuel Bank Foundation. It's grown a network of more than 126 referral partners based in Wales, 13 partners who provide UK services, such as Macmillan and Scope. It gives fuel vouchers, heated throws and helps households receive help to purchase off-grid fuel. That is a Welsh-based initiative with the Fuel Bank Foundation, and, in fact, they came to the child poverty conference on Monday to talk about that work.

But also, I've met with all the energy suppliers in Wales this month. I've encouraged them to help their customers with their energy bills, and they're all signed up to helping their energy customers. And let's remember it is actually about how we invest £30 million in the Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty. I think that's the way in which we are—as well as all the other responses I've given this afternoon in terms of take-up of the pension credit to enable them to access the winter fuel payment—helping pensioners in your constituency and in Wales, I have to say, with your local authority working very closely with us, Darren Millar, and local authorities are on board.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur Owen Griffiths. We are committed to connecting communities across Wales by transforming our railways, delivering a better bus network, fixing our roads and empowering local communities. This will allow us to build an accessible, sustainable and efficient transport service for everyone, in all parts of Wales.

Thank you for that response.

One thing that I think we can all agree on is that the public transport network is not where we'd like it to be in Wales. For anyone with a car, this is an inconvenience, if they would prefer to travel by bus or rail. If you are without a car, because you can't afford it or are unable to drive for health reasons, our patchy public transport network becomes an equality issue. For example, Age Cymru surveyed pensioners in Wales and found that 17 per cent of responders found it difficult or very difficult to get about. One person said that the bus service is infrequent and that it would be very difficult to access medical appointments, services and shops without a car. Another added, 'We'd like to use public transport, but access is limited, due to the cuts.' Minister, are these issues on your radar, with your responsibility for equality and human rights? And do you agree that our patchy public transport is a barrier to achieving equality, is a barrier to opening up opportunities in the job market or leisure, and a barrier to combating isolation amongst vulnerable groups?

Thank you very much for your question.

Of course, it's the national transport delivery plan that sets out the range of actions we're taking to improve the accessibility, reliability, safety and frequency of public transport. It is crucial that we have an integrated public transport service in Wales. And it is important to also recognise that, in south-east Wales, we've awarded £54 million in funding to local authorities to invest in their local transport priorities.

I just want to make one point—I'm testing the patience of the Dirprwy Lywydd. Don't forget that we're maintaining in Wales—. The Welsh Government is maintaining our concessionary travel scheme, which is crucial for older and disabled people, enabling people to travel for free on most bus services in Wales and get discounted or free travel on many rail services.

And finally, question 8, Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Buffy Williams. The child poverty strategy for Wales sets out our long-term ambitions to tackle child poverty and to mitigate the worst impacts of poverty here in Wales. Our strategy includes the actions we are taking across Government and with partners, maximising the impact of the levers available to us.

Thank you. Child poverty in Wales is alarmingly high. Increasing energy bills and mortgage rates will only make this worse. Research from the Trussell Trust indicates that, in 2023-24, over 187,000 crisis food parcels were distributed, with one in 10 parcels going to babies and children under four years old. There is a clear link between poverty and instances of abuse and neglect. The NSPCC report an increase in the numbers of children being taken into care due to families being unable to provide food and clothing. To effectively tackle child poverty, we must simultaneously support families and prevent further crisis. Cabinet Secretary, what action is the Government taking to enhance poverty awareness within child protection practices? How will the Government address the urgent need for emergency food assistance in Wales this winter? And how can we proactively identify and support parents facing crises and poverty, not only at crisis point but into the future, through training, education and employment?

Thank you for that question. I'll just focus on emergency food assistance—this has come up this afternoon already—and confirm that, since 2019, we've allocated more than £22 million to support community food organisations. I know that you support them actively in your constituency, as do many across this Chamber, and that is about tackling food poverty. It is about, also, providing access and signposts to other services and allocating £1 million revenue and £1 million capital to support community food organisations that tackle food poverty. But, as I have said already, those cross-sector food partnerships in each local authority are crucial to get expertise and support from Public Health Wales, local health boards, public sector bodies, third sector, businesses, academics, local farmers, all together, multi-agency. And I mentioned Katie Palmer and Food Sense Wales, talking about the positive impacts of that. So, again, all of the work on Flying Start, input into Families First, the family information service, these are things where we have responsibilities and we are doing our best to deliver, in terms of tackling child poverty.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. I have received a request from Janet Finch-Saunders to raise a point of order. Janet.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I wish for you to rule on a point of order issue. The Cabinet Secretary made a very robust statement here, that there were no foodbanks before the coalition, meaning the Conservative-Labour coalition—

Conservative-Lib Dems.

Yes, the Lib Dems. The point being that foodbanks were introduced in 2000 under a Labour Government. It's there in black and white. Google it. During the financial crash, they accelerated more. So, how has the introduction of foodbanks—

A point of order, please, not pointing to the Cabinet Secretary.

—under a Labour Government been twisted here today?

Right. It's not for me to rule on the answers given by a Cabinet Secretary, but you have raised this point, and it is on the record. I am sure that the Cabinet Secretary will review the contribution that she has made to ensure that any corrective action, if necessary, would be applied.

I would like her to withdraw the comment.

I have just ruled. Thank you.

We will move on now to item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. The first question is to be answered by the Llywydd and asked by Alun Davies.

During the past two and a half years, Members have frequently used their platform in this Siambr to highlight the invasion’s impact on the people of Ukraine. The Commission’s services have supported Members in demonstrating their support for Ukraine. The Ukrainian flag has flown on the Senedd estate since 24 February 2022 as a mark of Wales’s continued solidarity with Ukraine and its people. We’ve also supported many Member-sponsored events to highlight the continued impact of the crisis in Ukraine.

I'm grateful to the Llywydd for that response. We are living in fractious times, but one thing that has united Members on all sides of this Chamber is support for the people of Ukraine. We are now looking at potentially three years since the invasion of Ukraine. We have an all-party group here that has pioneered working to support the people of Ukraine. Myself and the Member for Pontypridd, Mick Antoniw, will again be in Ukraine over half term, delivering medical aid and support for people there. 

As we approach this third anniversary, it's important that we again look at how we can provide support for people who are literally in the front line of Putin's invasion. As we remember the Holodomor genocide in the coming month, it will be important again to bring these matters to this Chamber, so that this Chamber can speak on behalf of the people of Wales.

But also, I hope that the Commission will help, support and facilitate the people of Wales in expressing their view that they want to continue to support the people of Ukraine. And I hope that the Commission will use all of its endeavours to ensure that the voice of the people of Wales is heard loud and clear: that we want an end to this invasion and we want the people of Ukraine to be able to live in peace and freedom. 

I wholeheartedly, as the Llywydd of this Senedd, endorse all of the comments that you have made, and have only praise for you and Mick Antoniw and anyone and everyone who has gone the extra mile to support the people of Ukraine as they face these atrocities that they are facing. Sometimes it is not such a big deal to fly a flag in support of a people or a cause, but I do consider the fact that we continue to fly the flag of Ukraine proudly on our Senedd estate—. Not once, I believe, have I been requested to remove that flag. I consider that that is solidarity, almost more than anything, that we can show as a Parliament to the Parliament of Ukraine and to the people of Ukraine.

Thank you for those comments. Following on from the points that have been made, of course, the next four vehicles, going this half term, will take the total up to 30 that have been delivered on behalf of the cross-party group. There's a famous photograph that's circulating of a Ukrainian solder—one of the ones killed very early on. He'd written on the boarding behind him 'Yma o hyd', and I think that actually represents the attitude of many of the people in Ukraine—that they're still there and still fighting for their independence.

What I'd ask in respect of the Commission is, really, two things. We have 8,000 Ukrainians in Wales since the invasion, 4,000 or so of whom are children, and the support they've had has been tremendous from Wales. But there are two things, I think, that are really important: one is the commemoration of the Holodomor, the famine that resulted in some 4 million plus people being starved, artificially starved by Stalin in the 1930s, which resonates today with events in Ukraine, and whether the Commission can actually give support to that. And the second one is, of course, that I think the time is right now, due to the particular links between Wales and Ukraine, which are quite unique—the establishment of Donetsk, Yuzovka, after John Hughes; the links with Gareth Jones; and also the industrial links—so that now would be appropriate, I think, to look forward, perhaps to next Easter, to a formal parliamentary delegation from this Senedd to Ukraine. I know that the Ukrainian Members of Parliament I've met would very much welcome that, and establishing more formal links between our two Parliaments.

Thank you, Mick, for the questions and the issues that you've raised, and also for your work in supporting your beloved home country, if I can call it that, or the country of your forefathers. You have been a very strong advocate for the cause of Ukraine here in this Senedd and in Wales. And I still remember, as you speak of the 8,000 refugees from Ukraine who continue to live in Wales, one of those refugees coming to sing at our St David's Day event here. She was a soprano. She had been based at the Llangrannog Urdd camp when she first became a refugee here, and she sang in Welsh in our Senedd on St David's Day 2023, I think. She now lives in north Wales, has relocated to north Wales, and is still singing, from what I see on Facebook, in communities in north Wales. So, it's important for us to remember that these 8,000 people and more continue to live a long way from their home, and they will want to return—many of them, I'm sure—in as near a future as possible.

You asked two issues in particular: one on the recognition and support for the holding of a Holodomor memorial here in the Senedd. I'm more than happy for the Commission to work with the cross-party group on facilitating that. On the parliamentary delegation to the Parliament of Ukraine from our Senedd, I heard quite a bit of support across the Chamber for that. I would ask the cross-party group, or however you want to facilitate that, perhaps to think about how that parliamentary delegation would work. We're still in the context of Foreign Office advice to all of us as UK citizens not to travel to Ukraine, so there are issues for us to think about as a Senedd, a Parliament, as a Commission, in terms of facilitating that. But let's see what's possible, and let's talk across parties on how and if that can happen for next Easter.

There are a range of working arrangements and patterns in place across the Commission. These include working on the Senedd sites, remote working, attendance at events and activities across Wales, evening and night working and weekend working. As an organisation committed to providing equality of opportunity and practices that support a work-life balance, our people policies are developed in consultation with trade unions and our workplace equality networks. We have a flexible working policy and we provide a range of flexible working arrangements, with examples including part-time hours, compressed hours, term-time working and job shares. This enables staff to balance their responsibilities outside of work whilst delivering a high-quality service to the Commission.

Thank you, Llywydd. Back in May this year, I was sat in my Senedd office in Cardiff, diligently doing my work of scrutinising the Welsh Government, as we all do, when I found that I couldn't get hold of any Senedd Commission support staff whatsoever. I subsequently found out through an FOI that 95 per cent of the Commission workforce had taken a privilege day, which just so happened to fall straight after a bank holiday weekend. I appreciate that the Senedd was in recess, and that staff are entitled to take privilege days of their choosing, but I think it seriously inhibits the ability of Members to carry out their roles when, without notice to us, almost all of the Commission staff take the same day off. With this in mind, do you believe it is appropriate that so many staff members took their privilege day off all at once? And do you agree with me that having this number of staff off in one go seriously hinders the work of Senedd Members? Thank you.

I don't think it seriously hindered the work of Senedd Members. I'm sorry if it seriously hindered your work that you were unable to get hold of a Senedd Commission member of staff at that time on this estate. I would guess that there are members of our staff on this estate at all times, 24 hours a day. I can't quite answer the detail of your question, of course, because I don't know what kind of support you were looking for on that day in question.

This is the first time in 25 years that I've heard this particular issue raised. I doubt it's the first time that this has been the reality that most members of staff have taken a bank holiday or a privilege day at the same time. I suspect it's a pattern that's developed in the public sector over a very long time. I'm not aware that it's been an issue in the past. Please write to me if you believe that this is an issue that I should take up with our trade union partners and those representing our staff in the way we develop our services in the future. And please let me know as well on that particular date what kind of service you were looking for from Senedd Commission staff that was not available to you.

Question 3 is being answered by Hefin David. Laura Anne Jones.

The estimated costs of enlarging the Senedd Siambr to accommodate extra Members are included in the Senedd's draft budget for 2025-26 as part of the capital costs associated with Senedd reform. I gave evidence two weeks ago to the Finance Committee, an hour’s evidence session, and there's a lot of detail in there around the question that you've just asked.

The capital costs include physical adaptations to both the Senedd Siambr and Tŷ Hywel, which we are currently estimating at £3.874 million. The capital costs relate to the necessary adaptions to the Siambr to accommodate the enlarged Senedd of 96 Members and completion of Tŷ Hywel adaptations for new Member offices. Both projects will be subject to a competitive tender process to ensure value for money, but disclosing more detailed estimated costs in advance of procurement will of course preclude the Senedd's ability to obtain best value bids.

Diolch, Commissioner. The costs more generally of Senedd expansion seem to be spiralling as new challenges present themselves to Senedd Commissioners. What steps is the Commission taking to ensure that overall costs are kept to an absolute minimum?

I think you might be referring to the resource impact assessment that accompanied the Senedd Bill that my friend Mick Antoniw took through, now the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024. The resource impact assessment was lower than the current estimated costs, but only by £400,000. Now, in a project that takes place over two years, that is not a big difference between estimate and reality. The difference was that the capital costs have gone up, mainly because Members in this Chamber were consulted and wanted a specific type of Chamber. You could have expanded this Chamber with benches at the back and squashed everybody in, but that's not what Members wanted. Members wanted a specifically designed Chamber. So, the capital costs have gone up, but the staffing costs have gone down from 59 full-time equivalent staff to 47 full-time equivalent staff, which then accounts for that saving on the capital costs and the reason why the £400,000 figure is there.

We've also got a mechanism called the medium-term resource framework, which came in in 2022 and on a three-year rolling basis analyses costs, 71 per cent of which are staffing costs, and ensures that we are doing exactly as you suggest and making sure that those savings are found on an annual basis.

I heard you say there was a feeling that Members shouldn't be squashed up on benches at the back, which you said in your evidence to the Finance Committee is one of the capital pressures that are putting the budget up. Given the unease at the significant rise in the Senedd budget, would the Commission look again at providing a minimum viable option for the Senedd Chamber that didn't give everybody a desk? It would be suboptimal, I appreciate, but given the financial pressures, I think it would be appropriate to reconsider that. 

I think it would be helpful if the Member fed into the Member reference group that exists on this, of which Carolyn Thomas, I think, is a member as well. I think it's perfectly reasonable to make the point, but I think it would also need majority support across the Chamber, and I don't think that that majority support is there for it. 

Having said that, if there is a will in this Chamber to look at it, I'm sure it can be looked at. But one thing I would remind you again is that in my response to Laura Anne Jones I said that the capital costs had gone up, but the staffing costs had gone down. So, there is a balance in there that shows that that £400,000 increase on the RIA is not within the realms of what might be unlikely in such circumstances—it is a likely figure.

Therefore, I would want to keep in dialogue with you. I know I've sent you a copy of the evidence session, and I really appreciate the constructive dialogue that we've had—I genuinely appreciate that. I'll be presenting the Senedd budget in this Chamber on 20 November, I believe. I'm sure that we can have further discussions between now and then, and I'll be happy to do so.

Questions 4 and 5 will be answered by the Llywydd. 

We provide a variety of services to promote Welsh history and culture to visitors to the Senedd estate. We've developed a visitor tour in both the Senedd and the Pierhead that provides information about the role and responsibilities of the Senedd, the history of Welsh devolution and the history of Cardiff Bay. We also offer daily tours in both Welsh and English to groups and individuals that focus on the history of Welsh devolution and the role and responsibility of the Senedd and its Members. We work with a variety of community groups and organisations across Wales to deliver a changing programme of exhibitions in the Senedd and the Pierhead that showcase the Senedd's responsibilities and the cultural heritage of Wales.

Thank you for that answer. This has come from the fact that we went as a committee to Ireland and we saw the history there of their wonderful buildings and how they link to the past.

I brought my mum on a visit to the Bay and I asked her where would she like to visit, and she said, 'Tiger Bay'—we're here. I just think that Tiger Bay, here in Cardiff, has such a rich history and cultural heritage. It's home to Wales's oldest multicultural community, with sailors and workers from 50 different countries settling here from the mid-nineteenth century onwards. At one stage, Cardiff was the world's busiest dock for exports, dispatching 11 million tonnes of coal from the Valleys. And it just feels so new here. 

So, I was just wondering, because the home of the Senedd has such an impressive history to tell, if we could maybe improve signage to show the history of the past here, which is huge, isn't it, the multicultural history. I listened to a podcast about the Casablanca Club, which sounded fantastic. I just feel that that's the bit that's missing sometimes in the Bay. Thank you.

I think Tiger Bay is much changed. I remember tweeting once that I'd quite like to change the address of this place from 'Senedd Cymru, Cardiff Bay, Cardiff' to 'Senedd Cymru, Tiger Bay, Cardiff'. I still haven't quite managed to do that, but Tiger Bay is how many people fondly remember this area and the communities that live here. There's a long discussion as to how Tiger Bay became Cardiff Bay and how different the community that we inhabit as a Senedd is to the communities where people around us live.

It's quite a complex, interesting, varied history. We tell part of that story here. We probably, as your mother encountered, don't tell enough of that story here. If your mother would like to be an adviser to us on how we can improve the telling of that story and what maybe we should develop further in terms of how we are able to properly reflect where this Senedd, as a building, has arisen from, not just in its political history throughout Wales, but also in the heart of this community that we now inhabit, we can look to take on new ideas, and work with communities locally here as well, as to how they want to reflect their history and their current situation in our Senedd building. So, thank you for the challenge, and we'll give that some more thought. And thank your mother too.

It’s the role of the Independent Remuneration Board of the Senedd to provide allowances to Members. The board determines which accommodation costs Members are able to claim from the allowance for residential accommodation expenditure. This provides for accommodation costs in Cardiff for Members whose main home is not within a reasonable commuting distance of the Senedd. The board is undertaking reviews to shape the new determination for the seventh Senedd, set in the context of proposed Senedd reform, and the consultation on residential accommodation expenditure will begin during this term. I encourage the Member, therefore, to take part in that consultation.

Thank you. I will certainly do that. As I understand it, around £250,000 of Commission funding is spent on rent, mainly to private landlords. Over the period of a Senedd, that would mean that as near as dammit to £1 million of Commission public funding will be paid to private landlords. And of course, we’ve seen rents increasing significantly over recent years, particularly in Cardiff Bay, with rents increasing quicker in Cardiff Bay than in any other part. This means, therefore, that there is a constant threat to those Members who do have to access such accommodation of being evicted without fault. So, has consideration been given to develop a more stable system of providing accommodation for Senedd Members? I accept what the Llywydd has just said, that there will be a consultation, and I will participate in that, but what further consideration has been given over the years to that end? Thank you.

At various times, there has been consideration given to providing some kind of public hall of residence for Members of the Senedd here, as opposed to the current system, where Members are responsible for sourcing their own flats—primarily from private landlords, as the Member mentions, and then claiming against those costs. I believe that the remuneration board would be open to hearing any new ideas that Members have on how accommodation might be provided for those Members whose main homes are not within a reasonable commuting distance. So, all I’ll say to Members, to each one of you, is, as you consider the pattern for work and for additional Members from 2026 onwards, ensure that the ideas that you have for accommodation to that end are shared with the remuneration board. The board, like all of us, will be very aware of being prudent in balancing the need to ensure responsible public expenditure with these other matters that you’re suggesting. And we’ll have to take the decisions in that regard, as well as what is convenient for individual Members.

I thank the Llywydd and Hefin David.

Item 4 today is the topical questions. There are two topical questions today, and the first is from Altaf Hussain.

A serious incident was declared by Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board on 10 October. Following a detailed structural survey, the health board are developing the strategy to replace the oldest section of the roof at pace. Immediate action to ensure staff and patient safety has been implemented.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The shocking revelations that the roof of the Princess of Wales Hospital was in such a state of disrepair that the roof could collapse are extremely worrying for my constituents. This is the major hospital for Bridgend and the surrounding area, and, whilst the impact on patients and staff is not fully understood at this stage, it will be extremely disruptive to patient care. Thankfully, the rotting joints were discovered before any catastrophic failure occurred, but if the roof had not leaked in the recent storms, it could have been a different story. What additional support is the Welsh Government providing to support the local health board to mitigate the impact the repairs will have on patients in my region? Will the Welsh Government look to set up an inquiry to look into the reasons as to why this issue was not picked up sooner through routine structural surveys and to avoid this heightening situation at other hospitals?

As the Member will know, health boards are responsible for the safe operation and management of their estate, and this includes identifying key risks in terms of patient and staff safety and building conditions. The health board are now looking at all the options available to them to ensure they can continue to provide care in a safe environment for those patients and staff currently accommodated in ward areas, and, of course, those who will need care in the future. The options that they are considering will need to include the use of the whole health board estate, to make sure that they have the capacity to meet all of their patients’ needs.

The Member asked me specifically in relation to discussions with the Welsh Government, and I hope it’s of some reassurance to him to know that my officials are continuing to engage with the health boards generally in terms of backlog maintenance, which, due to the age of the estate, continues to present a challenge.

Residents in my regional constituency of South Wales Central, if they live in the western Vale, basically look to the Princess of Wales Hospital for the bulk of their referrals. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary: when did the Government become aware of this? Because it was my understanding that, with the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete surveys that were undertaken of all public buildings some two years ago, one would have thought that this type of catastrophic failure in the beams of the hospital could have been identified, or some warning sign given, because, undoubtedly, this is going to have a massive impact on services in the Princess of Wales area.

Could you answer when the Welsh Government were alerted to this, and whether the Welsh Government have made resources available for the utilisation of other parts of the Cwm Taf estate to be made available to patients and clinicians? Because I’m pretty sure this is outside the normal means of the health board to be able to fund such alternative arrangements in a timely manner.

The survey results were made known to the health board shortly before the declaration of the incident was made on 10 October, and my officials are in discussion, through the capital team of the Welsh Government. They’re fully linked in with colleagues at the health board to make sure that any further capital requests are being discussed on an ongoing basis.

Thank you for the question, Altaf, and it is an excellent question. Of course, this incident also exemplifies the deteriorating condition of the NHS estate more broadly. On the Welsh Government’s watch, the high-risk maintenance backlog alone has reached £0.25 billion, up from £32 million in 2016. It’s a damning indictment of the Welsh Government’s neglect of the very foundations of our health system. Alarmingly, the UK Labour Government’s spending plans imply a further squeeze in resources, at a time when the NHS is literally crumbling before our eyes—

Mabon, can I ask you to focus on the topical question on the Princess of Wales, please?

Well, my question is around the broader issue of the safety of the hospital estate and the NHS estate, which ties into the question raised by Altaf. Therefore, thinking about the Princess of Wales Hospital as well, will the Cabinet Secretary write to Rachel Reeves to demand that the upcoming autumn statement includes a real-terms increase in Wales’s capital budget over the coming financial year, so that he and the Government can get to grips with issues in this hospital, and the estate more broadly?

I will specifically answer the question in relation to the Princess of Wales Hospital, since that is the nature of the question that Members have placed on the floor of the Chamber. What we have seen is the impact of a decade and more of austerity in Westminster, and given the way we are funded, that has had a consequence on the fabric of the NHS estate in all parts of the UK, in relation to the upkeep of the estate—[Interruption.] Dirprwy Lywydd, I can’t quite hear what the leader of the opposition is asking me from the frontbench. 

The leader of the opposition should not be making any comments from a sedentary position; I’m sure he’s allowing you to continue your answer.  

I’m grateful to you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The damage to the roof of the Princess of Wales Hospital is, unfortunately, the latest example of that. Our capital budget this year is worth up to around 8 per cent less in real terms than expected at the time of the spending review in 2021. I would say, though, that health boards are provided with a discretionary capital allocation each year to support key risks, and dedicated capital funding of £24 million for infrastructure works has also been made in addition, available over the last two years, to support particular risks across the NHS estate. But Members here will appreciate that, in all parts of the UK, the NHS has been under incredible pressure from capital investment. 

Two colleagues now have asked you when the Welsh Government first became aware, and in the second answer I heard it was only six days ago, on 10 October, that there was a problem at the Princess of Wales hospital. I've spoken this morning with staff that work and have worked at Princess of Wales Hospital and here are some of the stories that they've been telling me: last year, there was a leak in one of the bays, patients had to be moved, shuffled along, so they were closer together; PCs couldn't be turned on one day because of a leak coming through the roof; patients were routinely being moved; and concerns were even raised about the respiratory ward in Princess of Wales Hospital, where, as you can imagine, a leak would have a severe impact on the well-being of the patients in that ward. If that is true, that the Welsh Government was only aware of this only six days ago, it suggests a heck of a lot of neglect, I think, on the part of this Welsh Labour Government in terms of looking after the estate of the Princess of Wales Hospital. So, can you clarify for the record that you had no concerns about the estate of the Princess of Wales Hospital prior to 10 October? 

As I made clear in my answer to the previous question, the responsibility for the condition of the estate that they manage is that of the health board. We make available capital funding to the health boards in order to be able to address key concerns as they arise. I also confirmed that the statement was made by the health board on 10 October in relation to the particular incident affecting the roof of the Princess of Wales hospital, and Welsh Government officials were made aware of the particular situation in the days before that. 

Of course, this is deeply concerning news, and I think it's important that we recognise the stress that this has put on staff and thank them for their professionalism in dealing with the situation. We are, now, in a situation where major traumas can't be dealt with in the emergency department, and many people in Bridgend and the surrounding communities have raised this as an issue with me, either on the doorstep or through getting in direct contact with my office. The main question I'm getting is, 'How long are we going to have to wait for this to be remedied?' So, I wanted to seek an update on the likely timescales of the remedial works today. I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary might not have that detail to hand at the moment, but the main reason for asking for that timeline is so that we, as Members, then, can communicate with our constituents on how long this is roughly going to take and how long they will need to wait for the emergency department to be brought back up to where it should be. 

I thank Luke Fletcher for that, and I absolutely endorse the points that he made about thanking the staff for working in these very difficult circumstances not of their making. That is obviously going to be incredibly challenging. And thank you as well to the health board staff, more broadly, making the arrangements that are so crucial to respond to this new challenge. I don't have, I'm afraid, the timescale yet, because that work is still being worked through, but I'll be happy to update Members, as and when that's available. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The next topical question will be asked by Peter Fox. 

Diolch, Peter. The Welsh Government works closely with local authorities to understand the pressures they face. Ministers meet regularly with leaders individually and through relevant groups. I will be meeting leaders individually over the coming months, with the finance sub-group on 22 October, and the partnership council on 25 November. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and we have already discussed the pressures that local authorities are facing this year. However, I think the WLGA statement yesterday that came out showed the gravity of the situation even more so, where the local government family is facing an astonishing £540 million-worth of pressures. That is an unprecedented amount. We already have heard from two local authorities concerned that they are facing bankruptcy, and there could be more to follow. I know that there are many on the brink, facing similar situations, and we cannot continue to ignore the situation. It is very real, it is very much growing.

I note that, in a quote from the UK Government yesterday, they said that they are committed to working with you to achieve the best possible funding for local councils in Wales. However, if what we also have heard—the national insurance increases on employers—is coming forward, let’s recognise that there are about 140,000 people employed in local government alone. You can see how the additional pressure will put additional burdens on top of the £540 million as it is.

We know that the public service workforce in Wales is currently between 329,000 and, if you take in private contractors who’d be working with local authorities, it’s more like 480,000. We know, at the lower figure, that even a 1 per cent increase on national insurance for employers would increase the bill for local authorities to a region of £100 million. If it went to 2 per cent, you’re talking of £200 million. That is an additional burden. At the end of the day, councils, we know, provide vital public services for the people of Wales, and financial pressures will force councils to pass on costs down to working families who cannot afford that anymore.

So, to help mitigate this and future pressures, are you considering any funding mechanisms to fend off more council bankruptcies, or potential bankruptcies, things like floors in funding settlements? I’m conscious there must be things you must be thinking of now, ahead of the budget, recognising this huge hole that is opening up and the potential for more pressure to come following the budget on the thirtieth.

Diolch, Peter. Thank you very much for your question. First of all, I’d like to put on record again my thanks to the workforce, who do a tremendous amount within local authorities, who work day in, day out, to provide services that we all value. I acknowledge the challenge that councils are facing. I can assure you that I’m certainly not ignoring the situation.

I welcome the early opportunity for engagement on budget planning with the WLGA and councils. The WLGA will be providing a paper for the finance sub-group at that meeting on 22 October, which I mentioned, outlining the financial and service challenges facing Welsh councils. This is a key part of developing the Welsh Government budget, and I’m pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language will also join that discussion.

Today, I’ve been out, as I have been, speaking to local authority leaders and to chief executives—I've met with Powys today—and heard directly from them. That’s something that I think is really important, to listen and to hear about the challenges that they face directly.

Councils are balancing key services, such as social care and education, with other areas like the economy and culture, and they’re facing an increasing demand from that range of services. We know they’ll be planning on a range of budget scenarios, and these will be being updated as they and we get greater clarity from the UK Government. We are, obviously, in those discussions with local authorities, the WLGA as well, and I think working together is really important and to have those conversations and to make sure we’re doing all we can to support local authorities in Wales.

In 2018, Northamptonshire County Council issued a section 114 notice. Since then, Slough, Croydon, Thurrock, Woking, Birmingham city and Nottingham city have issued notices. In recent months, many other local authorities have reported that they may soon be forced to do the same. As can be seen, size is no protection, with Birmingham, the largest council in Europe, being on this list. Both Labour and Conservative councils are on the list. We have not had a bankruptcy of a council in Wales because of better settlements and also good political management and good departmental management, but that can’t continue forever. Does the Minister agree we need a council settlement for next year that ensures no Welsh council goes bankrupt?

Diolch, Mike. As I said, I fully acknowledge the challenge that councils have been facing over a number of years. Despite the level of support Welsh Government has been able to give over those years, we’ve been through a really long period of public sector austerity, with increasing demands in major services, plus that pandemic and an extraordinary inflationary period. So, there have been huge challenges here but also, as you mentioned, huge challenges in England as well, and that's something that I've been hearing in my discussions with Welsh local authority leaders over the last few months. 

You're right, Mike—there has been no issuing of section 114 notices or no notices of bankruptcy in Wales. We're working hard and we're not taking that for granted, and we've heard of and you've listed some of the local authorities in England that have had to take those significant steps. Issuing a 114 notice is a significant step that no council, I know, in Wales would wish to take. Its immediate effect would be to freeze new spending until the council agreed a new financial plan to balance its books. If necessary, I do have powers of intervention but, of course, that would not be a step I would take lightly.

In Wales, we are jointly developing with local authorities—which is really important—a protocol to apply in case of significant financial challenge. Once finalised, this protocol will be agreed through the finance sub-group. The protocol will set out a range of potential options for support. This will not include additional access to additional funding, but rather non-financial and technical steps, including, where appropriate, capitalisation directions. So, for example, a direction could permit the use of capital receipts or borrowing for revenue purposes, and this is consistent with the support available in England.

I thank Peter Fox for asking this question. 

We've heard from a number of councils that they're going to have to make further cuts to a number of their services that they don't have a legal duty to provide. For example, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council are planning to withdraw funding from some school transport, and Caerphilly County Borough Council is consulting on the same, not to mention huge cuts in libraries. Cuts like this will have a disproportionate effect on those already most vulnerable in Wales, who have already been facing a historic cost-of-living crisis.

What support is the Welsh Government offering to support the most vulnerable who will be losing services from local government budget cuts, and what discussions has this Government been having with UK Government to ensure that there are consequentials that provide fair funding for our struggling councils in the upcoming budget? How hopeful are you that disaster can be averted? 

Diolch, Peredur. I'll just say that our financial position remains extremely challenging, and we know that we face difficult decisions as we prepare for the 2025-26 budget in the Senedd. We'll have a firm settlement to 2025-26 and a better idea about the likely trajectory of public service funding in future years after the UK Government statement on 30 October. 

As in previous draft budgets, we will protect front-line public services as far as possible, and continue to target support towards those with greatest need. We'll not be able to do all the things that we want to do, so it's vital that we invest in those areas that can have the greatest impact, particularly if there's no additional funding. And I think it's important to note that our relationship with local government is that partnership approach, and that we'll work with local government through this difficult time, as we have done over the last few years as well.  

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government.