National Assembly for Wales

We recognise the importance of linking communities to key hospitals and healthcare facilities. There are a number of bus services to the Grange Hospital, and Transport for Wales will look to link hospitals and other key public services as part of the bus network planning process for bus reform.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, when the Welsh Labour Government decided to close the A&E department at Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny, we were promised that it would still be easily accessible for residents in Abergavenny. Unfortunately, that’s not what happened, because there is no direct bus route now from Abergavenny—quite a significant part of Monmouthshire and the catchment area for the Grange—to the Grange Hospital. And it takes quite a long time, including some walking, for patients or for visitors to go and see their loved ones, or to receive treatment, forcing some people to drive in a not-okay state because that’s the only way that they can get to the hospital. Would you be able to look into that for me, Minister, and assure my residents that they will, if they need to, be able to get to hospital by bus from significant parts of Monmouthshire?

Well, I’m very grateful to Laura Jones for the question, and I am aware of a petition that is live, calling for a direct bus service between Abergavenny and the Grange. I’ve therefore asked my officials to take a look at the feasibility of such a route, of course, in the context of the availability of budgets, but also to work with Transport for Wales in regard to the mapping exercise that’s taking place as part of the regional transport plans.

Minister, the promises that were made by Welsh Ministers when the Grange was being established, of course, were that there would be these public transport links in place to enable people across the region to access services and to visit relatives who are in-patients in the Grange. That has not be delivered—it has not been delivered for my constituents in Blaenau Gwent. And if the Welsh Government takes decisions that lead to the centralisation of services and taking services further away from people, I believe that Welsh Ministers have an absolute responsibility to ensure that people are able to access those services.

Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that a flexi service, based in the Heads of the Valleys, would be a service that could be provided by the Welsh Government to enable people living in Blaenau Gwent to access services in the Grange and to access relatives who they may wish to visit whilst they are in-patients in the Grange?

That could well be a solution, and that’s why we’ve asked Transport for Wales for review opportunities to improve direct bus links to key hospital sites, like the Grange, as part of regional bus planning. I think it’s important to be measured as well in terms of the support that has been made available for public transport to and from the Grange. There was the pilot scheme, of course, that took patients and their visitors from Pontypool and Newbridge and Blackwood, in partnership with Stagecoach. Now, that pilot scheme did not continue, unfortunately, because Stagecoach did not consider it to be commercially viable, and because passenger patronage was relatively low. Now, in terms of the possible solutions for Blaenau Gwent, it’s not just a flexi service that could be a possible solution; there are other areas of activity that we’re looking to roll out across Wales, which could be applicable to Blaenau Gwent, including flexi and community transport, as well as door-to-door services that patients may be eligible for.

With pleasure. The £70 million investment in upgrading the Ebbw Vale line has doubled service frequency and introduced direct services to Newport. Forty thousand extra journeys were made in the first half of this year, and I look forward to more people using this service on a daily basis.

I’m grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary. Now, I’m the proud owner, of course, of a Transport for Wales concessionary card, and I’ve been making great use of this card. Now, were I to run to Ebbw Vale and catch the train that’s leaving in about 10 seconds from now, then I wouldn’t be able to use this on the train to Newport, but if I waited half an hour and caught the 14:05 train, then I would be able to use the concessionary card. If I waited another half an hour, I wouldn’t be able to use the concessionary card, but I would be able to use the concessionary card half an hour after that. Now, that, I would suggest, Cabinet Secretary, is not the best way to run a railway, and I would suggest that it's not the best way to run a concessionary card scheme either. It is time, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that the concessionary card is available on all services down the Ebbw valley line, to ensure that my constituents, and others, are able to use their concessionary card on all the services on this new railway, which we're all looking forward to using.

Well, I'd very much enjoy seeing the Member run to Ebbw Vale to catch the service—I'm sure it's within his abilities. Look, I'd like to thank the Member for raising this issue, and I've spoken with him in private about it. I have already raised it with Transport for Wales, who are addressing not just anomalies with the concessionary fare scheme, but also fare discrepancies across the network, which have been inherited by Transport for Wales. As the Member rightly knows, these are not of Transport for Wales's making. Transport for Wales is there to solve the problem, and I hope that they'll be able to do that.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Can I just extend that wish from the MS for Blaenau Gwent, and say that a review does need to be done into the pricing and costing of tickets, particularly for the issue that was raised by the MS for Blaenau Gwent, but also what I'm just about to say now? Whereas we all, of course, welcome the opening of the new line between Ebbw Vale and Newport—. The project obviously came to fruition because of funding from Welsh Government and the UK Government—[Interruption.] It's a point that's not often made enough. Will you join me in welcoming the fact that a day-return ticket from Ebbw Vale to Newport costs £8.70? However, a day-return ticket from Abergavenny to Newport costs £13.20. These two journeys are almost exactly the same length, made with exactly the same train operator, yet the residents of one town are paying £5.50 more a day to travel than the residents of the other. Can you explain why that is, please? Thanks.

Llywydd, I believe that a technical briefing is necessary for Members on this complicated matter, because the whole fare discrepancy issue was inherited by Transport for Wales from Arriva Trains Wales—so too the issues with the concessionary fare scheme, as well. So, just in brief, to explain to Members with regard to the core Valleys lines, Arriva Trains Wales introduced the third-off measure as a commercial decision. That was a commercial decision—it was not applicable to the subsidy that was provided. It was then subsequently rolled into the Transport for Wales contract, because withdrawing that sort of measure is very, very difficult, as Members, I'm sure, can imagine. I face calls from across Wales to introduce similar schemes everywhere. I think it's absolutely vital, first and foremost, that we look at the discrepancy in fares, which Transport for Wales has been doing since it took over responsibility for the network, and that we also look to a longer term view of how concessionary bus passes can be used in regard to the one network, one ticket, one timetable objective of the Welsh Government. I don't want to rush into this; I think it's absolutely vital that we have a sustainable solution—and this is something that my predecessor worked hard on—to ensure that we have one network, one timetable, one ticket that is applicable for the whole of Wales.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, as you're well aware, the Senedd rarely votes unanimously on one given topic. However, when it comes to fair funding from high speed 2, it's something that we've all agreed on, that Wales is owed consequentials from HS2 to the tune of roughly £4 billion. However, it has recently been confirmed by the new Secretary of State for Wales, and backed up by this Welsh Government, that £350 million is the figure Labour believes it's currently owed, which was explained by the Cabinet Secretary for finance last week as being calculated through, and I quote, 'money already spent' on the project by the UK Government. But the money Wales receives must not be limited to £350 million; we must continue to receive the funding as it is spent, to meet our country's long-term needs. As far as we can see from recent news stories, the First Minister failed to get a commitment from Sir Keir last weekend that Wales would get its fair share of funding. So, what exactly, Cabinet Secretary, is indeed the current benefit of two Labour Governments working together, as we were indeed promised, and how will you be utilising your role to push this much-needed money for Wales? Thank you.

Well, there are a number of examples that I could point to in regard to Labour Governments working together for the benefit of the people that we serve. As the Cabinet Secretary for north Wales, I'd point possibly first and foremost to the announcement that there will be 50 per cent more train services across north Wales in 2026 as a result of decisions that were made jointly by Ministers here and at Westminster. That’s a huge increase—the biggest that I can recall in north Wales.

I think, with regard to HS2, our position has not changed—it has not changed. The current finance Minister and the finance Minister before him both have outlined why the £350 million is a figure attributed to HS2 consequentials. But focusing purely on £350 million actually risks losing the bigger prize, which is a pipeline of enhancements that could amount to much more. And I am absolutely focused on developing a mutually agreed pipeline of enhancements through the Wales board to ensure that we get improvements right across Wales in rail infrastructure. We’ll be meeting, I’m pleased to say, next month, as a Wales rail board. Ministers from UK Government, and I, will be agreeing on that pipeline of enhancements, and then, once we get legislation through at Westminster, we will see the creation of Great British Railways. And through Great British Railways, and the Wales unit that will be right at the heart of that organisation, we will have control over the funding of enhancements to the Wales network. And I think that is going to be a step change from where we are today.

Thank you for the response, Cabinet Secretary, and I do look forward to those updates as time progresses.

Last week, we heard the exciting news that a Welsh company had made a breakthrough with a new innovative solution to address electric vehicle charging outside terraced housing. For anyone who may have missed the headline, Swansea-based Charge Gully have developed technology that allows electric vehicle owners to safely run charging cables from their homes to their vehicles without obstructing pedestrians, with the cables now able to be placed underground within the pavement itself. This will make a huge difference, particularly to those not able to charge their EV directly outside due to limited space, as approximately 27 per cent of houses in Wales are terraced and residents often face this problem. Charge Gully are offering a safe, secure and cheaper way of charging EVs, with an average of £1,000 extra per year spent by those not being able to charge their EV at home. With this exciting new technology set to be rolled out in trials across Wales, Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government going to be doing to capitalise on these sorts of innovative breakthroughs all across Wales? Thank you.

Well, can I thank Natasha Asghar for that question? I’m incredibly interested in new and emerging technologies, especially regarding electric vehicles. I was most impressed recently to read not just of the example from Swansea, but also of the efforts by Toyota, who have a major manufacturing plant in Wales, and their aspirations to produce vehicles with dry solid-state batteries from 2028. That could be a huge, huge benefit not just in environmental terms, but also in terms of range and charging time. I believe that it could lead to ranges of up to 800 or 900 miles from a single charge, which would be astonishing and remove all range anxiety for motorists. But I’m also incredibly interested in the potential of the innovation that the Member has pointed to to address some of the shortfalls in electric vehicle charging at present. And we’re keen to work with any innovators, with research institutions, particularly with the market, because I believe it’s the market that has the innovation and the creativity to solve the sort of problems that the Member has highlighted.

Thank you so much for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I think it’s fair to say that west Wales is often deprioritised when it comes to transport projects, particularly, and perhaps due to the rurality of the area and its less densely populated geographical make-up. However, this is by no means an excuse for poor transport networks. And if you want transport, or public transport, to be a truly viable alternative to cars, this must be reflected in network investments right across Wales. Cabinet Secretary, in west Wales, there is currently a severe shortage of existing train carriages, and single railway tracks are still being used on certain main railway lines. For example, there is a two-carriage train running between Cardiff Central and Milford Haven, which takes about three hours, and anyone travelling at peak times regularly has to stand for at least a significant part of the journey. Yet, your recent statement on rail mentioned west Wales not once, despite mentioning poor links between north Wales and London, even though west Wales, amongst many other transport shortfalls, is struggling with the exact same problem. Even the new Labour MP has been criticising the links between Pembrokeshire and London as, in taking this exact route, he was forced off the train at Port Talbot and into his car, which he said, and I quote, ‘He shouldn’t have to rely on’. So, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions are you having with the UK Government and rail operators about increasing carriages and connectivity between west Wales, Cardiff and further afield to ensure that residents aren’t cut off and tourists disincentivised from coming to Wales? Thank you.

Well, can I assure the Member, first of all, that west Wales is very much in our consideration when it comes to prioritising certain public transport innovations, including, crucially, bus franchising? South-west Wales will go first in the franchising of bus services, and I think that demonstrates our commitment to the region.

In regard to rolling stock, it's an interesting fact that, when we took over the contract in 2018 from Arriva Trains Wales, we inherited 270 train carriages, and by the end of next year, through an £800 million investment, we'll have 484 carriages. We'll go from having one of the oldest fleets to having one of the newest fleets anywhere in Great Britain, and that will be of benefit to every single part of Wales.

Diolch yn fawr. Cabinet Secretary, we've recently heard from your counterpart in Westminster, the Secretary of State for Transport, Louise Haigh. She said that the HS2 railway line is very likely to run to London Euston and that it would make absolutely no sense to have the high-speed route terminate further out from central London. In March 2023, this stretch of line was estimated to cost around £5 billion. What makes absolutely no sense, Cabinet Secretary, is that this spend in London will result in extra funding for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but not for Wales. I know you agree, Cabinet Secretary, that this is unfair funding for Wales surrounding HS2. We've heard that, we've spoken about that, and Natasha was just talking about the consensus in this place around that. Will you be liaising with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to call on the Treasury to make sure that sense prevails and that we will get the consequential for that bit?

I think the Member raises an important point about the viability of HS2 and the common sense or lack of that's been applied to it. The history of HS2, actually, goes back to when consideration was being made about increasing the number of airport take-offs. The number of flights that were going between Manchester and Heathrow, in particular, was of concern, not least because of the environmental impact. So, when they were looking at introducing additional runways, HS2 was offered up as a solution to that. So, it was originally going to run to Manchester Airport to avoid the need for Manchester-to-London trips by plane. It then bloated. It became an ever grander and an ever bigger project, and ultimately, under the previous Government, it collapsed under its own weight.

What I think the new transport Secretary of State is doing is applying common sense. Equally, though, we need common sense to be applied when it comes to the consequential and it being reclassified as an England-only project. That's why we have been very clear in our discussions with UK Government counterparts that we believe a consequential is applicable. But I would say again that we must be more ambitious than just getting £350 million. We need to make sure that, over the long term, we have the investment in our rail network that brings it up to the standard that we deserve in Wales and that we should expect, the sort of standard that we see in other parts of the UK and other parts of Europe.

I'm not sure you agree that we should be getting that bit as well. I agree with you on that, but £350 million is very different from £5 billion or £4 billion, and imagining what that could do to help the legacy of underinvestment in our own railway network. With your new partnership with Great British Railways and what you announced recently, and the historic legacy of underfunding our railway system, do you agree with me that the railway should be devolved fully to Wales, so that we've got control? But what mechanisms could be put in place to make sure that that historic underinvestment isn't a liability that we would have to take on? How are you working with your friends in power in London to make sure that, if you agree that we should be devolving rail, it should be fit for purpose today, rather than something that is inherently not working?

I think Peredur makes a really important point about ensuring that when you take ownership of something it is in good condition. I've compared the rail network in Wales to a classic car. By and large, it's almost always less expensive to purchase a fully restored classic car than one that needs restoration, especially a prized car. Similarly, a rail network is far better to adopt once it's been fully restored. What we are proposing with Great British Railways and the Wales business unit that will be at its heart is an ability to have control over enhancements without necessarily having the ownership at the outset. Because the ownership at the outset, in my view, would not be an asset, it would be a liability. We need to see devolution of rail infrastructure as part of a process, and the process begins with getting that pipeline of enhancements, that investment that is required, and over time building up the network to a twenty-first century standard, and at that point transfer ownership.

You talk about a twenty-first century standard; are we going to have to wait until the twenty-second century for it happen? It would be worth knowing what sort of timescales you’re looking at there and what sort of conversations you’re having on that.

The fundamentals of a public transport system, in my mind, are that it needs to be reliable, it needs to be frequent, it needs to be timely, and it needs to have reasonable fares. Less than 4 per cent of our railway is electrified, you cannot get from Aberystwyth to Cardiff on the train without going into England, and we’ve estimated that we’ve lost 10 per cent to 15 per cent of bus services. There are many more examples of how transport networks are failing across Wales. Meanwhile, the cost of bus and rail services is continuing to go up.

Going back to the original question and whether or not we should be getting that Barnett consequential from the £5 billion estimated spend on that London bit, would you advocate for spending any consequential that comes from HS2 or any rail network on the rail network in Wales?

This is another really interesting question, because it goes to the heart of devolution and the decisions that are made in Wales for Wales. You point to the very fact that, when we get a consequential for whatever portfolio, that money isn’t necessarily then spent on that purpose. It would be for the Welsh Government collectively to decide how a HS2 consequential would be invested in Wales. I could not stand here today and guarantee that all £350 million of that consequential would go into public transport or into rail in particular.

What I think is vitally important, therefore, is that we keep our eyes on the bigger prize, which is that enhancement pipeline of rail investment that will be agreed with Westminster counterparts. I’m hopeful that, as a result of having an ambitious pipeline of investment, we will deliver greater improvements than we have seen in the past 20 years in terms of rail infrastructure in Wales.

But just on the point of why people travel by public transport, you’re absolutely right, reliability is the No. 1 factor. That is why we have seen a huge increase in the number of passengers using Transport for Wales services, because it follows incredible improvements in terms of reliability and punctuality. Ultimately, that has led to a very significant increase in levels of customer satisfaction. I think that should be welcomed on all sides of the Chamber.

We continue to invest heavily in the TrawsCymru bus network in recognition of the key role these services play in providing strategic public transport links across Wales. Transport for Wales are undertaking a strategic review that will examine the effectiveness of existing services and opportunities for further improvements.

Can I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for raising this vitally important question for so many communities, not just in his constituency, but beyond? I'll declare an interest in this question in that the T3 service also runs through my constituency of Clwyd South, so I'm well aware of the dissatisfaction with the timetable changes that were made and the reliability issues that too many passengers have had to face. I'd very much enjoy a visit to the Member's constituency with him to look at what has happened since the T3 route was altered, and I can assure him that I've asked Transport for Wales to look again at the route, as part of that wider strategic review that they're doing of the whole network. It will involve further consultation in the coming months, and that will be before any timetable changes, route changes, are agreed. And I'll ensure that all Members with an interest in the T3 service are engaged by TfW to ascertain their views.

Cabinet Secretary, the T1 bus is an electric bus that runs from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. It starts its journey from the showground, where it charges its batteries, then it makes its way into Carmarthen for its first pick-up, to pick up patrons. But what used to be a park-and-ride service no longer exists at Carmarthen showground, allowing patrons to park in the showground and get bus access into the town centre. The bus continues to travel that route, yet it's not allowing passengers to travel between the showground and Lammas Street. This is a bit of a weird anomaly, especially when we're advocating for more and more people to use the bus services. Could I ask that you speak with TrawsCymru to see why this is happening? Can we not get patrons onto the bus from the showground, so that they can travel into Carmarthen town, to Lammas Street, or onwards to Aberystwyth, if they so wish?

I'm very grateful to Sam Kurtz for raising this issue. I can assure him that I will ask officials and Transport for Wales to examine this particular problem.

The Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 places duties on local authorities to assess the suitability of travel for learners. For 2024-25, we've allocated over £6 million to local authorities from our Safe Routes in Communities grant for schemes that are specifically aimed at improving conditions for walking, wheeling and cycling to school.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware, with the learner travel Measure, that there had been hope to review and improve the offer. It has led to the fact that many local authorities now are actually changing the eligibility for free home-to-school transport. If you look at Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, for instance, the council has decided to align the eligible distance with Welsh Government guidance—from 2 miles to 3 miles. There's going to be a protest in Pontypridd, organised by parents from across Rhondda Cynon Taf, this coming Saturday, because they're concerned that secondary school pupils who live just under the 3-mile threshold now face walks of over an hour, or have to pay for two public buses, to get to school. Many of these routes are unlit and unsafe, especially as we head into winter when the days are darker and colder. Things have not changed, despite this issue being raised countless times. More young people in my region are finding it increasingly difficult to get to school, or are missing out all together because there are no buses or they can't afford the price of a ticket. Will the Cabinet Secretary finally take the necessary steps to address this issue and ensure that every pupil has a safe, accessible and affordable route to get to school?

Can I thank Heledd Fychan for her question? I'm minded to propose a debate in Government time on this important subject. It's being raised on numerous occasions in the Chamber, and I think it merits further debate, if Members would agree. Diolch. I think it's important to point to the fact that the transport provision is paid for by councils through the revenue support grant. I think the decisions of local authorities recently demonstrate just how stretched their funds are, they really do, especially when areas of service such as social care are so, so pressing. So, local authorities have my sympathy for the difficult decisions that they're having to make.

Now, reducing the mileage threshold wouldn't necessarily solve many of the problems that Members have raised over this issue, because there are structural challenges that learner transport faces, including the lack of operators that are available, the lack of infrastructure in and around schools as well to cope with an increase in buses that would be required. And of course, it would require a significant sum of money to overcome.

We are taking forward the recommendations of the review. That will improve consistency across Wales, and I'm also looking at convening local authorities, schools, school heads and operators to learn about the good practice that is taking place in Wales. There are examples of schools and local authorities and operators overcoming the challenge of providing provision. Estyn recently highlighted an excellent example, I thought it was, in Swansea. And that example shows what can happen when a secondary school works with a local authority and the local bus operator to negotiate affordable fares for their learners. So, that sort of good practice needs to be not just shared, but rolled out across Wales. So, as I say, I'm looking at convening a summit of local authorities, school heads and operators to do just that. And if Members are in agreement, I think, based on the response I've heard today, I'd be more than happy to bring forward a debate in Government time.

I'm frequently contacted by parents whose children are being left in a vulnerable position by local authorities' strict interpretation of the Welsh Government's Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, which restricts free home-to-school transport to learners of compulsory school age who live 3 miles or further from their nearest suitable school. The measurement they use is often arbitrary. Alternative public transport is often unreliable, leaving children abandoned at bus stops, and practical safe walking routes are usually unavailable.

The most recent example of this, which I've written to you about, applies to pupils from Sychdyn in Flintshire who attend the Alun School in Mold. This is despite the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure stating that, where learners are not entitled to free transport, local authorities have the power to provide transport on a discretionary basis, and defining that a route is only an available route if it is safe for a child without a disability or learning difficulty to walk the route alone, or with an escort if the age of the child would call for the provision of an escort. In addition, therefore, to the actions that you've proposed, which I welcome, how will you monitor and evaluate implementation to ensure, basically, that local authorities have got it, and are doing what they can to assist communities like this?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for providing that example of an inconsistent approach in Wales? And that's why we are taking forward the recommendations of the review—to address those inconsistencies. In terms of monitoring, this is something that Transport for Wales are keen to ensure that they conduct alongside Welsh Government.

We recognise the challenge right across Wales that many learners face right now. As I say, there are structural problems that need to be overcome in order to address those challenges everywhere. But I would point to the forthcoming bus Bill as part of the solution. Being able to control networks, being able to control routes and timetables, will make a significant difference to the provision of transport for learners. It won't solve every problem in its own right, but it will be part of the package of solutions that we wish to drive forward.

Cabinet Secretary, in areas of Newport East such as Ringland, Llanwern, Liswerry and Glan Llyn, pupils walk to the two local high schools, Llanwern and Lliswerry High, alongside and sometimes crossing the very busy southern distributor road, which sees high volumes of traffic travelling at high speed. One option for dealing with those issues is to provide safe active travel routes, and I just wonder what discussions you and your officials have with authorities, including Newport City Council, to make sure that, when there are those issues, safe active travel routes are provided. 

Can I thank John Griffiths for his question? He makes an essential point, that safety is of paramount importance in considering active travel provision. I'm personally not aware of complaints in regard to Lliswerry or Llanwern high schools and the access to them. However, I will ask my officials to engage with the local authority and the schools to understand the scale of the problem and the possible remedies. If I could, I'd like to point to just one example of intervention that is proving to be very, very successful. I'm very proud of this particular scheme. It's delivered by Living Streets. It's the walk to school programme and it will run for the next two years, with funding available from Welsh Government, and it will cover 170 primary schools and 42 secondary schools. I will seek to find out if the two high schools that the Member has identified today are part of that programme. 

Of course, something like a quarter of all school funding goes on the cost of school transport, and one of the recommendations of the review of the learner travel Measure was to look at how more journeys could be made by active travel, and that requires provision of safe routes. And, of course, that has to be part of a network and that needs to be a long-term commitment. It's taken time to build up expertise within Transport for Wales to create a centre of excellence to help local authorities build routes that the local community needs. But there's a danger, if Welsh Government funding for active travel is cut, that all of that progress will be unravelled. Will the Minister commit to making sure there are modal shift targets within the regional transport plans, and that funding for the RTPs are aligned with the modal shift targets that we have in the Wales transport strategy?  

I think Lee Waters makes an important point about maintaining the momentum that we've built over time in regard to modal shift, and corporate joint committees have a statutory requirement to develop regional transport plans that set out policies to implement the Wales transport strategy. And as our guidance makes very, very clear, this includes pursuing modal shift and decarbonisation and, with it, there are targets. Also, my officials and Transport for Wales are supporting corporate joint committees with this work. I think it's vitally important that regional transport plans provide the basis to give local leaders a greater say over how transport funding is spent in their region, but also I would agree that it's vital that we continue to use Transport for Wales and the expertise contained within Transport for Wales to support CJCs and local authorities in delivering their plans against the Wales transport strategy. 

I have recently met with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and he has assured me that improving access to NHS dental services remains a priority, particularly for new patients, of which more than 73,000 have been seen in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board since April 2022.

Thank you for that. You'll be aware, of course, of the closures that we've seen in terms of access to NHS dental services across north Wales of late, and Dant-y-coed in Coedpoeth is the most recent of a long list, sadly. We have a situation now where a family of four potentially will have to pay £400, £500 a year just for check-ups and even more if they need any kind of treatment following that. We know that contracts are an issue. The dentists are telling us that there are issues with the contract between the Government and the sector, but also sufficiency of supply of dentists. You will have heard Plaid Cymru's calls for a dentistry school. I'm wondering whether you support the establishment of that proposition in principle, if not without acknowledging some of the practical challenges. And if you do, then what case are you making within Government to try and realise that ambition? 

Can I thank Llyr for his question? First of all, in regard to the Dant-y-coed practice, I should declare an interest because it is in my constituency. I understand that they were operating under the old model not the reformed model, which avoids recycling healthy patients, and I can assure people in the county borough of Wrexham that there are 11 practices that provide NHS provision. There are opportunities sometimes when contracts are handed back, and we've seen that with Betsi Cadwaladr being awarded £1.5 million of funding to support five practices, one of which is a brand-new practice in Flintshire. And the health board is also currently out to tender for the award of a further £4.5 million across the health board. Contract returns do provide, therefore, an opportunity on occasion. For example, in north Wales, the new academy has in part been able to be developed because contracts have been returned. 

And to the second point that the Member makes, I think the prospect of having a dental school is certainly worth consideration. On principle, I would support the creation of a dental school in north Wales, but we do need the universities and the health boards to work together to develop proposals. That, I believe, is what the health Minister is pushing them to do. And then, if funding is available, we'd be able to move quickly.

Can I join Llyr Gruffydd in identifying the need for a dental school in north Wales? Because you will know, Cabinet Secretary, the difficulties around recruitment are particularly acute in north Wales. In addition to the opportunities around the dental school, it's been welcome to hear the Labour Government in Westminster calling for more collaboration with health services between England and Wales, and particularly that will impact constituents that I represent across Flintshire and Wrexham, some of whom you may represent as well, Cabinet Secretary. So, I'm interested in understanding your thoughts on how that collaboration, you think, could work for those residents in north Wales, and particularly around dental services, and whether you think, in your role as Cabinet Secretary representing north Wales, there are particular opportunities for residents in north Wales, considering the transport links that take place throughout the region.

Sam Rowlands makes a really important point about the porous border: many patients in Wales are provided service in England, just across the border. So, any collaboration that can take place that would lead to better outcomes for patients, regardless of where they seek their provision, should be welcomed. Now, I'm not an expert in the new contract, but my understanding, my basic understanding, about the reform contract is that it frees up capacity by avoiding the recycling of healthy patients for regular check-ups, and instead it prioritises need over the recycling process that used to take place under the old contract. If that could be applied in England, I think we'd see more capacity released, which, in those cases of people who do seek their service in England, would be very much welcomed.

And I think, in terms of the point made about transport, we're working through the likes of Growth Track 360 to identify how we can improve public transport networks across the Mersey-Dee area.

Well, 'Llwybr Newydd', our transport strategy, sets out our vision and priorities for all parts of Wales, including Brecon and Radnorshire, and our national transport delivery plan and the regional transport plans being developed by corporate joint committees will set out how it will be delivered.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Many people who live in my part of the world do feel that there is plenty of investment that goes in to the south Wales Valleys, but, actually, no investment into my constituency. We've got a major transport link that links my constituency to Adam Price's constituency between Trecastle and Llandovery—that road does not have any bus service on it whatsoever. That is an actual major tourist link back and forth between west Wales and mid Wales, and I think it would be beneficial to put that transport link in place to actually open up different parts of the country, so people don't have to get in their cars and actually can get on a bus to travel around the country. I've asked previous Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers about this and nothing seems to be happening. So, now you're in post, and you seem a pragmatic gentleman, will you actually step up to the plate and deliver these transport links between my constituency and Adam Price's constituency, because many people are asking for it, and I've got all faith in you, Ken, that you can deliver it?

I can't possibly not help the Member after his very kind and generous comments. The bus system is broken at the moment, and that's why we're bringing forward the bus Bill. Operators, they pick off those routes that are commercially attractive and they leave huge gaps elsewhere, including the gap that the Member has rightly identified today. Therefore, I will invite Transport for Wales to work with my officials to look at whether a service could be introduced, perhaps a TrawsCymru service, whether it would be applicable. Of course we're operating in very, very financially straitened times, but I will ask for work to be done and I'll report back to the Member.

Well, I look forward to it.

Well, we undertake proactive consultations with key stakeholders before major roadworks, and this is supported by various forms of communications to inform and update the public, particularly on the more disruptive long-term projects. This allows the travelling public to plan their journeys on the strategic road network well in advance.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. We have corresponded, and I know we've spoken, on the issues of the upcoming closure of the A470 at Talerddig for repair works on the retaining wall on the trunk road. Now, the works themselves are very much needed and long overdue, however the concern for me, the community and affected businesses is the complete road closure for up to seven weeks. I appreciate that your officials have liaised with local community leaders in recent weeks, but this plan has only just been made public ahead of the closure at the end of the month. The official diversion is a 70-mile route, which will cause significant disruption, and, of course, further disruption and chaos on smaller roads as well.

So, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary, what options have been considered to keep one lane open during working hours? Can further consideration be given to cutting into the woodland opposite the collapsed wall for a temporary road to be in place? I understand Natural Resources Wales had some issues with this, but I have corresponded with them myself. Can works be carried out 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to complete the work more quickly? And what update can you give on how emergency services and school transport could be supported in this time as well? I look forward to your answer being pragmatic, Cabinet Secretary.

Well, can I thank the Member for highlighting this particular challenge and say to his constituents that I fully appreciate the frustration that the work is causing or will cause? It relates to a retaining wall. I'm afraid the work has to be done as an emergency, and I know that the Member would agree and I know that all community leaders would agree. I did interrogate thoroughly the options, I can assure the Member, and also the length of the diversion. I'll provide a full briefing in writing, if I may, and I'll share that with all Members with an interest in this particular route. Unfortunately, we were not able to proceed with the single-lane option for safety reasons, and I understand that the option of cutting into the forest and creating a temporary road was also examined, but ruled out for various reasons. I know that officials are liaising with Powys County Council and other stakeholders to reduce disruption and provide replacement services for public and school transport, but I will provide a detailed response to the Member in writing.

Of course. With over £1 billion of investment to upgrade the core Valleys lines, Transport for Wales have transformed the Treherbert line, replacing Victorian-era signalling, installing overhead-line electrification and upgrading stations. Brand-new electric trains will run on the transformed core Valleys lines later this year, making metro-style services a reality.

Thank you. I know that the transformation up until now has been bittersweet for residents. Catching rail replacement buses for months, road closures, and hearing work up and down the line through the nights has been challenging, but the Rhondda railcard, station modifications, and the infrastructure for the electrification, ready for new stock, has more than made up for this. I'd like to place on record my thanks to all the construction workers, Transport for Wales, the Welsh Government and to residents for their patience. I can't wait to see a greener, quicker and more reliable service on the Treherbert line; it's the service that residents deserve. I know residents are eager to know, as I am, when we can expect to see the new stock on the line and whether you have any updates regarding the transport hub in Porth, please.

Well, can I thank Buffy for her supplementary question and for the way that she's championed over many years the need to improve public transport in her constituency? Can I also thank residents, who have shown incredible patience over quite a significant period of time when the disruption has taken place? But the prize will be worth it, and I'm pleased to be able to inform Buffy today that the prize will come in time for Christmas, because brand-new electric trains will be coming into service in December on the Treherbert line; they'll be on every service on the line early next year. These new electric trains, they really do offer an enormous upgrade for passengers compared to the legacy fleet that we are replacing. There's more capacity, they're more comfortable, there are far better facilities as well—completely different to what the travelling public have experienced on that particular line. The new trains are planned to begin service on the Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil lines from this November. Now, I can also assure the Member that Transport for Wales are working very closely with Rhondda Cynon Taf to open Porth interchange as soon as possible, and I'll ask them to provide you with an update on the timescale and the latest position.

It is clear that we have to ensure that all people can access a public transport, and the Welsh Government is committed to developing accessible, high-quality, responsive services, particularly, for example, not to just meet the needs of disabled people, but everyone, in terms of access and safety as well, particularly with the description you've made of how to access the local station.

This is something where there is responsibility that is shared between Transport for Wales and Network Rail, in terms of the programme across Wales, particularly for accessible lifts in stations and access to stations. There is £2 million allocated to Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn to invest in their local transport priorities, but, certainly, this is something that the disability equality forum has raised with us. They've had, also, through our disability rights taskforce, a working group on travel, and I will take this back to see what can be done to assist in progressing this important access point for local people.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm grateful to Rhun ap Iorwerth for raising this issue, which is particularly impacting his constituents on Ynys Môn, but there are, of course, broader issues around public transport for people with disabilities, because we know that disabled people often are the ones who use public transport and rely on public transport more than others. Indeed, a recent report from the charity Sense said that 72 per cent of people with complex disabilities use some form of public transport on a day-to-day basis. I was really pleased that, earlier this year, the UK Government announced an extensive support for disabled bus users, with almost £5 million being made available to install and improve audible and visual announcements on buses throughout Great Britain. So, Cabinet Secretary, I'd be interested to know how you are ensuring that bus companies in Wales are making the most of that £5 million that's been made available, to ensure that people with disabilities have the ability to access those buses in the best and safest way possible.

Thank you very much, Sam Rowlands. That's also critically important in terms of access for all, but particularly access for disabled people. This, of course, includes access to buses and supportive bus infrastructure. Of course, that includes ramps, raised-kerb bus stops, tactile paths. They really do foster real access for disabled people. But also, I think what's important is that the accessible information regulations were introduced this month, and these new rules actually do make the provision of audible and visible information a requirement on local services across Great Britain, and will help people to travel with confidence. So, it is mandatory for the majority of local bus and coach services to incorporate that information provision, improving that journey experience for all passengers, but including, particularly, as raised today, disabled passengers. And of course, we do have grants and financial support through the infrastructure upgrade work to routes on the TrawsCymru network and those various Welsh Government grants as well. This is all, I would say, part of ensuring that our active travel programmes take into account the needs of disabled people.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for that question. The Secretary of State for the Department for Work and Pensions has written to me, setting out the range of actions the UK Government are taking to increase take-up of pension credit. We're working with DWP and other key stakeholders in a co-ordinated push to increase take-up in Wales.

Well, that's useful to know, that there is a range of options. Age Cymru are saying that, this year, nearly nine in 10 pensioners in Wales living in poverty will not get a winter fuel payment, and some of them are not aware they're eligible for pension credit, so they of course will doubly lose out, and that research is borne out by the conversations I've been having with constituents. Many of them absolutely don't know what they get and whether it includes pension credit.

So, I was very interested to see that the DWP wrote a letter to a sample of nearly 2,500 pensioner households they thought might be eligible for pensioner credit. It prompted nearly three in 10 to apply for that pension credit. So, I was hoping that this is in the range of options that the UK Government is considering. And can you tell us what steps the Welsh Government is taking, working with the UK Government, to proactively contact these people who are eligible for pension credit and therefore the winter fuel allowance, so that they are applying before the cut-off date of 21 December?

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. It's critically important that we get this information out now, as you say, of the cut-off date of 21 December. When I wrote to the Secretary of State at the Department for Work and Pensions, originally, to say we wanted to engage with them and what were they doing, she replied to say that they were writing directly to 120,000 households across the UK. I then drilled that down: 'Well, what does that mean for Wales?' It includes 6,600 in Wales getting that direct letter. That is using existing data, and of course data sharing is at the heart of tackling this, for those who are entitled to pension credit. Those letters are coming out imminently, and we'll be informed of progress.

I've asked for an inter-ministerial group on work and pensions, which I will be chairing, because it's about inter-governmental agreement between ourselves and the inter-ministerial group. Also, just to say that clearly we're doing a great deal in terms of our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, Citizens Advice, the single advice fund, actually to take up the benefits. We've got pension credit, we've got access information, the pension credit posters in GP surgeries, vaccination centres, pharmacies, and places where people go on a regular basis, and we're doing everything that we can for all family members to also ask the question. I was very interested that, in a recent surgery, someone came to see me about something else, and I just said, 'Have you applied for pension credit?' She said, 'Oh, yes, and my neighbour, and I'm telling everyone else,' so there is word on the street, as well, which is good, because this shows a recognition that this should be an entitlement.

Cabinet Secretary, the perverse decision by the UK Government to axe the winter fuel payment to tackle a fictitious financial black hole will force many older pensioners further into poverty. The only silver lining to Labour's cruel policy will be persuading tens of thousands of pensioners to claim the benefits to which they're entitled. The net effect of this will end up costing the UK Treasury billions rather than saving money. Sadly, this will do little for those just above the benefits threshold who will still face a choice between heating and eating. What actions will your Government take to mitigate the worst impact of UK Labour's raid on pensioners?

Thank you, Altaf Hussain. I've already outlined quite a few ways in which we are working closely with the UK Government to ensure that people who are eligible do take up the pension credit in order not only to enable them to be eligible for the winter fuel payment, but actually to open the door to other benefits as well. I was pleased to meet with the new Older People's Commissioner for Wales on Monday with the Minister for Children and Social Care. We spent quite a bit of time discussing this, because you’ll recall that the predecessor older people’s commissioner really did take this pension credit campaign—. Quite apart from access to the winter fuel supplement and payment, it really is something where we have too many people—pensioners—who aren’t taking up the benefit themselves.

And I think it is interesting that people are responding to the changes in the winter fuel payment eligibility criteria, as I’ve mentioned—just my anecdotal mention. We’ve got a stakeholder group meeting fortnightly with the Department for Work and Pensions. The older people’s commissioner has got a strong connection with older people, getting that message over. Age Cymru is on that group and the Welsh Local Government Association. And there has been 152 per cent increase in pension credit claims in the eight weeks from July to September, compared with the previous eight weeks. So, I think it’s really important information that those pension credit claims are actually increasing and that will, of course, be a gateway. Because also, it’s a gateway to help with council tax bills, paying rent, free NHS dental treatment and free TV licences for the over-75s, so we need to ensure—. And through our Welsh benefits charter, which is trying to help ensure that there’s one access to benefits, we are working to take this forward, and, of course, learning also the good outcomes from the Neath Port Talbot Policy in Practice case study.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, data shows that, in England and Wales, there are almost 3,000 domestic abuse and sexual violence crimes recorded against women and girls daily, making up nearly 20 per cent of all crimes recorded. Worryingly, violence against women and girls has risen by 37 per cent over recent years, and now at least one in every 12 women will be a survivor of domestic violence or sexual abuse, which is a truly horrific statistic. And, sadly, the actual number is likely to be even higher. However, despite this rise in violence against women and girls, it is believed that less than 24 per cent of domestic abuse cases are actually reported to the police. Cabinet Secretary, as outlined by the national policing statement 2024, there is clearly an urgent and critical need to address this and the need for immediate and co-ordinated action across all sectors to help protect women and girls. With this in mind, what is the Welsh Government doing to increase public awareness and to challenge norms and attitudes that perpetuate violence against women and girls? And what is the Welsh Government doing to enforce a coherent and robust whole-system approach that involves collaboration between statutory agencies, charities and the private sector? Thank you.

Well, I thank Joel James very much for that question. I was only reflecting last night that the amount and the extent and the prevalence of domestic violence is just utterly terrible—it's shocking. And, of course, it is a societal problem, which requires societal response. And it is, as you say, about raising awareness, challenging attitudes, changing behaviours of those who behave abusively. Just to reassure you, we have got our Welsh Government violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, and what's important about that is that it's got a national partnership board, it's ministerially led—I co-chair it with police and crime commissioner Emma Wools, on behalf of policing in Wales. Because this is where it's important that the criminal justice partners have that power and influence and responsibilities, and link across directly with the Welsh Government in terms of our commitments to funding and policy for social justice. So, we have got that high-level action plan, with a range of ways in which we're not only seeking to improve women's safety, but we've got work streams working on every aspect of domestic violence and abuse. And can I also just acknowledge the work of the Equality and Social Justice Committee on their inquiry into a public health approach to preventing gender-based violence, which, of course, again, is really important in terms of those recommendations—that we look at ways in which we can tackle these issues.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The recent announcement by the UK Labour Government to release prisoners after serving only 40 per cent of their sentence is a policy that poses serious risks, particularly for abuse survivors, who are already facing a lack of communication within the criminal justice system. Moreover, I believe that this policy sets a dangerous precedent that skews public opinion towards the belief that the UK is soft on criminals, which will, in no doubt, reduce the likelihood of people reporting crime, and, ultimately, lead to increased crime. Welsh Women's Aid have expressed their deep concern about this policy on the grounds that the early release of prisoners, at a time when His Majesty's Inspectorate of Probation is already stretched, leads to the risk that many survivors may not be told when their former abuser is considered for release. Alarmingly, most probation delivery units were classified as 'inadequate' in 2023-24, the lowest possible rating, and only three services were 'sufficient' in assessing the risk of serious harm. Welsh Women's Aid is further urging the Government to carefully reconsider this policy and to prioritise the safety and well-being of survivors. Early release of prisoners could have a devastating consequence for survivors of violence against women and girls. I think it's clear for all to see that this policy risks the safety and well-being of survivors and increases the fear amongst them that their former abusers will be back on the streets. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what pressure have you put upon the new Labour UK Government to reverse its policy? Thank you.

Thank you for that question. Of course, justice is currently a reserved matter, and many of the services that are central to operating our adult and youth justice, in terms of the secure estate, probation services, in terms of the impact of decisions that are made at a criminal justice level, actually, are devolved to us. So, we seek not just to take responsibility, but to work very closely with HMPPS, His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service. So, I have been reassured by meetings that I've held with the Minister, Lord Timpson, and also, most recently, last week, with the Minister Alex Davies-Jones, who's responsible for not only victims, but violence against women and domestic abuse. So, I was very reassured, in terms of the early release scheme, that Alex Davies-Jones met with third sector providers in Wales. Before the September first early release cohort, she met with Welsh Women's Aid and other organisations, and, in fact, I also met with the criminal justice partners, to be reassured that there was going to be every responsibility taken in terms of release, and that there was a victim contact scheme as well. So, it is something where we need to work together, and I have been reassured that, in Wales, people have been protected, particularly in terms of the situation of risk in terms of early release and domestic abusers.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The UK Labour Government has announced that legal advocates for female survivors of violence and sexual abuse are going to be in every police force in England and Wales in order to advise survivors from the moment of report to trial. However, as the Cabinet Secretary will be aware, according to their manifesto, Labour plan to fund these legal advocates through the redirecting of police and crime commissioner grants for victims services, meaning that funding will be taken from one area that supports survivors of violence against women and girls and placed into another, and offering no overall improvement to the support survivors receive. Survivors of domestic and sexual abuse face countless challenges at all levels of the civil and criminal justice system, most notably where there is a lack of trust when reporting incidents to authorities, and the delay that survivors often face when waiting for what can be a very traumatic trial, further eroding any trust that they may have in the system. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what conversations has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government on implementing the recommendations from the harm panel report to address the deep-rooted systemic concerns with how the courts identify and respond to domestic abuse? Thank you.

Well, thank you for that question. I’ve already met with Alex Davies-Jones, MP, who’s the Minister for victims and tackling domestic violence and violence against women. She’s in the Home Office, and, of course, we also have Jess Phillips in the Ministry of Justice. And, as social justice Cabinet Secretary, I’m working closely with both of those Ministers in the UK Government to address these issues.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Inequality remains a significant challenge that hinders not only individual potential, but the collective well-being of our country. The most recent report into the well-being of Wales, published at the end of last month, highlighted some very concerning inequalities that continue to exist and to deepen within our society. In it, the chief statistician reports on the evidence that shows that people who experience deprivation are likely to face poorer outcomes. On mental well-being, the gap between the most and least deprived areas has widened, and, perhaps most shockingly, the report states the gap in avoidable mortality between the most and least deprived areas is now at its highest level since 2003 for males, and since the series of the well-being reports began for females. This next year will see us mark 10 years since the passing of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Do you agree with the findings of this report that, in my opinion, demonstrate that the Welsh Government are failing to meet their seven well-being goals, and that the Act has not ensured sufficient action on tackling inequality? And how will this urgent work be prioritised in the forthcoming budget?

Thank you, Sioned Williams, for that really important question, because it is something that I think we can all be proud of in this Senedd, in our Welsh Parliament, that we did bring forward the well-being of future generations Act. And, of course, it is now, six years on from the implementation of that Act, that we are implementing, and responsible for implementing. And, of course, you have to look at that well-being report and see how much needs to be done in terms of ensuring that the well-being of future generations agenda is actually driving continuous improvement across the Government, and how public bodies work, and how they are delivering on those goals and actions. So, I think what is important is that, with our well-being of future generations commissioner, we are now looking at not just future trends in terms of the work that is being undertaken, but, actually, how we are delivering on the UN sustainable development goals, for example. And the future generations commissioner has championed successes and lessons learned from the well-being of future generations Act, and is taking this forward in terms of recognition across the world of what we are seeking to do. But it’s here in Wales that we need to demonstrate that difference.

Diolch. The well-being of Wales report clearly demonstrates for me that tackling poverty is the key to improving inequalities. Trussell’s latest report, published last week, shows that the number of people facing hunger and hardship—that is, the number of people who are likely to need to turn to a foodbank now and who are at high risk of needing foodbanks in the future—is at record levels in Wales: 420,000 people and children most at risk, and 23,000 more people across Wales are projected to face hunger and hardship by 2026-27 if nothing changes. The report also shows that work is not providing a reliable route out of hardship, with the experience of going without the essentials equally common for households receiving universal credit who are in work and out of work. The report analyses a range of policy options available to both the UK and Welsh Governments, and finds one of the most effective would be to remove the two-child limit and benefit cap. This would reduce the number of people at risk of hunger and hardship in Wales by 25,000. It also recommends emulating the Scottish child payment. Trussell say that the discretionary assistance fund, although valuable in a crisis, isn't sufficient to stop families going without food. Do you agree with Trussell that the UK Government must act on the evidence on its options for change? And how will the Welsh Government act to end the rising need for foodbanks in our communities?

Of course, tackling poverty is a key priority of this Government, and it's across Government—all Ministers integrating activity to tackle poverty and how we support vulnerable households to mitigate the impact of poverty. On Monday, I spoke at a child poverty conference. One of the important speakers who I was able to hear was the speaker who spoke about the local food partnerships. Katie Palmer runs Food Sense Wales, which we are funding across the whole of Wales to try and not just fund foodbanks, but, actually, to tackle—. In every constituency and every county there is a food co-ordinator looking at how we tackle food poverty, but also linking it to all of the schemes that have been developed through the curriculum with schools, with community growing, and working with farmers as well to tackle food poverty.

But, of course, what people need—and all these reports are clear—is money in their pockets. I am very glad that I've been doing work, following our co-operation agreement, and, indeed, this year's budget, looking at those child payments made in Scotland. We haven't got the powers, but we are looking at the experience of that. But also, I'm very clear that our Welsh benefits charter is a route to getting our children and families the funding and support they need. Also, in fact, the other speaker on Monday who was important was Councillor Anthony Hunt, talking about the ways in which they are now channelling, through the Welsh benefits charter, one route to accessing free school meals, the school essentials grant, the council tax reduction scheme and the education maintenance allowance. What we need to do is ensure there's one route in to getting the money that people and families need in order to tackle enduring poverty, which, of course, we want to address. We haven't got all the powers, but we want to address it. 

You don't have all the powers, and I take it that you won't be urging the Chancellor to scrap that two-child cap in the forthcoming budget, which is disappointing, considering all this evidence in all these reports.

According to a new report by Citizens Advice Cymru, the demand for crisis support has reached unprecedented levels. Comparing the first eight months of 2022 and the first eight months of 2024, they've seen a 17 per cent rise in the number of people coming to them in crisis situations. An adviser quoted in the report said they used to see maybe 20 foodbank cases a week, and now they are seeing at least 20 a day. 

These recent reports from Trussell and Citizens Advice bring to light the stark and troubling reality of inequality and poverty. What's really concerning is that a significant portion of those struggling are in employment, showing simply having a job doesn't provide protection from hardship without adequate social security support. This directly challenges the assumptions made by the First Minister and the Prime Minister last week. Employment isn't always the key to reducing poverty.

Cabinet Secretary, in the absence of action from the UK Labour Government to reverse Tory welfare policies, which deepen and entrench poverty, will the Welsh Government, in line with the calls made by Citizens Advice Cymru, be protecting funding for the discretionary assistance fund in the forthcoming budget? And will it boost the allocation for the financial year in order to meet the rising need for crisis support?

Thank you for that question. I was very glad that we were discussing these questions yesterday in response to the children's commissioner's report, and answering the questions that were put to me about how we were tackling child poverty. I think one of the important things in terms of the evidence is it is about social security policies that can and do lift children and their families out of poverty. Obviously, that is not within our gift as a Welsh Government, although we’re doing what we can in terms of our access to benefits. I remember meeting with the Bevan Foundation in the early days of my having this portfolio and they were saying, ‘If we could get families to take up the Healthy Start vouchers’. In fact, Lynne Neagle, when she had the role, managed to get health visitors trained and we massively increased access to Healthy Start vouchers—not Welsh Government but UK Government funding. I am pleased that I am, within the next two or three hours, meeting Liz Kendall and Bridget Phillipson. They are co-chairing the child poverty taskforce for the UK Government, and I will be able to then discuss these issues. But I can assure you that I’m doing everything I can to protect the discretionary assistance fund, to look at the impact of it this year in terms of the spend and to protect it for next year as well.

I know you're aware of the appalling statistic that was uncovered by the Child Poverty Action Group recently that 10,000 children, as we’ve heard, have fallen into poverty since Labour took power in Westminster just a few short months ago. That, of course, is because of the two-child benefit cap. Human Rights Watch have called it cruel. I don’t wish to make you squirm, Cabinet Secretary, but you just told us that tackling poverty is a key priority of your Government. Will you call, therefore, on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to scrap the two-child benefit cap in the budget? Because it is responsible for plunging over 100 children a day into poverty.

This is a question that obviously is very current and topical at the moment. Indeed, I know the First Minister has answered this question as well. You will be aware that the UK Government has got a child poverty taskforce, and I’ve just mentioned the fact that I’m meeting with the two Cabinet Secretaries who themselves are co-chairing that taskforce. Clearly, these are issues that we are discussing with the UK Government, but I think the point for us here, and it goes back to the questions from Sioned Williams, is what we are doing with our partners to deliver the child poverty strategy here in Wales. 

I’m very encouraged by the fact that, at our child poverty conference on Monday, not only did we talk about the impact of the single advice fund, which is reaching—. For example, in north Wales, over 19,000 people have access to single advice fund services, and £5 million of extra welfare benefit income. It is getting money in people’s pockets, as you know, that we need to take forward. But also we have made some funding available to organisations to help them tackle child poverty. You’ll be interested to hear that, in north Wales, we’ve got the Actif North Wales place-based approach pilot. It’s a community development approach. This is about communities in Wales, local authorities, third sector—they are all coming to us with these projects and saying, ‘Can you fund them? We think this is going to help tackle child poverty.’ So, we have that responsibility here in Wales to help them take those projects forward.

As mentioned during the children’s commissioner debate yesterday, it was regretful that the Welsh Government in 2016 abolished the target for eradicating child poverty by 2020. The Welsh Government has deliberately avoided including measurable targets in the child poverty strategy. Just because the targets have been abolished, it does not mean that Members will not scrutinise the Government on its failure to grapple with child poverty, which is running close to 30 per cent in Wales currently.

There is a dereliction of duty by the standards of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Wales is behind Scotland and Northern Ireland, and significantly behind many other European countries when it comes to child poverty, and this is not acceptable when we know that we can do better. Like so many other strategies and action plans under successive Welsh Labour Governments, there is consistently a disappointing failure in delivery. After 25 years of a Labour Government in Wales, child poverty levels have not decreased at the rate they should, and therefore new thinking is required. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree to publish a statement on levels of child poverty in Wales that commits to reintroducing measurable targets and sets out a clear plan for delivery? Thank you.

I do find it very hard to keep my cool when we have faced 14 years of austerity and we face a £22 billion black hole, which the new UK Government is now having to deal with. I do find it hard to—[Interruption.]

Cabinet Secretary, two seconds. I would like to hear the response from the Cabinet Secretary, and there are voices from all sides of the Chamber that are not letting me do so. Please allow me to hear the response. 

I just wanted to briefly and quietly say: did we have foodbanks before the coalition Government took over? [Interruption.] We had nothing—nothing compared with the food poverty that our children and young people are facing today. So, yes, we have a long way to go in terms of working with our UK Government. And isn't it good, don't you agree that it's a good sign, that I am meeting the Secretaries of State for work and pensions and education this afternoon? I would never have got near one of your former Ministers to have such a discussion about tackling child poverty.

Diolch, John Griffiths. Since the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' was launched two years ago, we have laid significant structural foundations for improving outcomes for ethnic minority people in Wales, including an external accountability group, which holds us to account. 

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. In Newport, we're lucky to have Age Alive, a charity that serves as a network for older black and minority ethnic people in the Newport area. This year, they celebrate their tenth anniversary. They organise activities for their members, allowing them to make friendships and connections, and also highlight issues that are faced by their membership with regard to the ongoing prejudice and discrimination that sadly is still with us today. Their chair, Roy Grant, has actually written a book about the history of immigration and community cohesion in Newport, particularly with regard to the Windrush generation and the challenges and experience that they faced. This group, then, Cabinet Secretary, is doing an awful lot of very good work, and I wonder—I'm sure it will—whether Welsh Government will recognise that and look at how it supports groups like Age Alive with the very good work that they do in the community and their plans to do even more. 

Thank you very much for drawing this to our attention today. This is just one example of many across Wales of ways in which organisations and community groups like Age Alive in Newport are actually working so effectively to champion diversity, tackle prejudice and discrimination and promote social inclusion for black, Asian and minority ethnic people over 50 in the area. I'd like to hear more about their work. I'd also like to have a look at that book as well. But can I also just draw attention to the fact that, earlier on today, I visited a minority ethnic community health fair here in Cardiff, and very similar projects have been developed in Cardiff as well. And I think, across Wales, it is useful to see how the third sector, particularly, I have to say, initiatives like Age Alive in Newport, are doing such tremendous work that is at the forefront of how we deliver our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'.

Thank you for that question, John. Firstly, I want to say that the Welsh Conservatives are firmly against racism and all forms of hate and bigotry. This has no place in society, and there should be zero tolerance for antisemitism, Islamophobia and all hate crimes.

The escalating crisis in the middle east has led to the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent people. The situation is catastrophic and, sadly, also affects many people in Wales who have friends and relatives in the region affected. Furthermore, this has escalated extreme hate and appalling racism directed towards Jewish and Muslim people in their Welsh communities, simply because of their faith. The Welsh Government attempted many times over the last 25 years to end discrimination, but ordinary Jewish and Muslim people continue to feel anxious, concerned for their safety, and, unfortunately, believe that this is just a part of normal life.

My question is: what is the Welsh Government doing to tackle prejudice and foster good relations between the Jewish and Muslim communities in Wales? How is the Welsh Government supporting Jewish and Muslim faith leaders and grass-roots charities?

It’s so important, and we also recognise that that’s a very important question, because we are in Wales hate crime week this week. In fact, I spoke at the Wales hate crime support network yesterday and I spoke at that event about the fact that, arguably, 2024’s been a year like no other in recent memory. We saw the riots in England and Northern Ireland having an impact on people in Wales, people from different ethnic minorities, backgrounds—Muslims, in particular, are feeling fearful they will become targets, from the summer events, but also the heart-wrenching conflict, as you say, across the middle east has also left Welsh community members from different groups feeling very fearful, and, in fact, there has been an uplift, unfortunately, of hate crime based on one’s faith and religion.

So, it’s really important, as I said yesterday, that Wales has no place for hate, and I think this is where we can come together to express that. We do know there are reports of hate crime targeted towards Jewish and Muslim communities in Wales. The key point yesterday we were making at the Wales Hate Support Centre is that people encourage people to report any hate incidents and they can contact the police or the Wales Hate Support Centre, run by Victim Support, but I’m grateful for that question.

It is important that we share that and that you shared that with us today. Just to reassure you and Members that, with the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 requiring us to issue guidance to support all political parties in considering the actions that they can take to improve diversity of candidates at the next election, we are already meeting with LGBT+, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller, black, Asian and ethnic minority communities to work with them to draft the guidance. That includes Pride, it includes Stonewall Cymru, Disability Wales and all of those who are representing black, minority ethnic groups as well. There is an opportunity, and I hope everyone across this Chamber will engage in that consultation. In fact, I look forward, with the First Minister, to attending the women's caucus, chaired by Joyce Watson, and attended by women across the Chamber, next week to discuss this.

Thank you, Darren Millar. We're working to ensure people in Conwy and Denbighshire, and throughout Wales, claim every £1 to which they're entitled. Our 'Claim what's yours' Advicelink Cymru helpline is helping pensioners to find out and access financial support, including pension credit.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, but I'm afraid that that answer does not satisfy the people in Conwy and Denbighshire that I represent. Some 30,000 people across those two local authority areas are expected to lose out on winter fuel payments this year, and, frankly, they are bitterly disappointed in the response of the Welsh Government to this crisis, and it is a crisis for many of them, who will struggle to pay their bills. They feel let down. They feel let down by you, Cabinet Secretary, personally, and by the UK Government. You haven't been calling sufficiently well on the UK Government to reverse the impact of these cuts, you don't seem to be able to find money within your own budgets to create a Welsh Government fuel payment to replace the impact of the payments that are being lost, yet you seem to have plenty of money for all sorts of other things that we don't need to spend money on. Back in August, you actually said yourself that pensioners risk being pushed into fuel poverty by the cut, and we know that that is the case. Why aren't you making any progress in addressing this issue and when can we expect you to be rattling the cage at the doors of the Treasury to make sure that pensioners in Wales don't face these terrible and cruel cuts this winter?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I don't intend to go over all of the actions that we've already taken. I've answered this question more than once, but I'm going to add a couple more points and ways in which we are trying to help people. The one key thing, I think, is the unique partnership we've got with the Fuel Bank Foundation, since June 2022. Your Government, the UK Government, never entertained a partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation, I have to say. They did in Scotland, they did in Wales, not in England. That heat fund helps off-grid households in crisis with the bulk purchase of fuel, and it is important for people to know about the Fuel Bank Foundation. It's grown a network of more than 126 referral partners based in Wales, 13 partners who provide UK services, such as Macmillan and Scope. It gives fuel vouchers, heated throws and helps households receive help to purchase off-grid fuel. That is a Welsh-based initiative with the Fuel Bank Foundation, and, in fact, they came to the child poverty conference on Monday to talk about that work.

But also, I've met with all the energy suppliers in Wales this month. I've encouraged them to help their customers with their energy bills, and they're all signed up to helping their energy customers. And let's remember it is actually about how we invest £30 million in the Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty. I think that's the way in which we are—as well as all the other responses I've given this afternoon in terms of take-up of the pension credit to enable them to access the winter fuel payment—helping pensioners in your constituency and in Wales, I have to say, with your local authority working very closely with us, Darren Millar, and local authorities are on board.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur Owen Griffiths. We are committed to connecting communities across Wales by transforming our railways, delivering a better bus network, fixing our roads and empowering local communities. This will allow us to build an accessible, sustainable and efficient transport service for everyone, in all parts of Wales.

One thing that I think we can all agree on is that the public transport network is not where we'd like it to be in Wales. For anyone with a car, this is an inconvenience, if they would prefer to travel by bus or rail. If you are without a car, because you can't afford it or are unable to drive for health reasons, our patchy public transport network becomes an equality issue. For example, Age Cymru surveyed pensioners in Wales and found that 17 per cent of responders found it difficult or very difficult to get about. One person said that the bus service is infrequent and that it would be very difficult to access medical appointments, services and shops without a car. Another added, 'We'd like to use public transport, but access is limited, due to the cuts.' Minister, are these issues on your radar, with your responsibility for equality and human rights? And do you agree that our patchy public transport is a barrier to achieving equality, is a barrier to opening up opportunities in the job market or leisure, and a barrier to combating isolation amongst vulnerable groups?

Of course, it's the national transport delivery plan that sets out the range of actions we're taking to improve the accessibility, reliability, safety and frequency of public transport. It is crucial that we have an integrated public transport service in Wales. And it is important to also recognise that, in south-east Wales, we've awarded £54 million in funding to local authorities to invest in their local transport priorities.

I just want to make one point—I'm testing the patience of the Dirprwy Lywydd. Don't forget that we're maintaining in Wales—. The Welsh Government is maintaining our concessionary travel scheme, which is crucial for older and disabled people, enabling people to travel for free on most bus services in Wales and get discounted or free travel on many rail services.

Diolch, Buffy Williams. The child poverty strategy for Wales sets out our long-term ambitions to tackle child poverty and to mitigate the worst impacts of poverty here in Wales. Our strategy includes the actions we are taking across Government and with partners, maximising the impact of the levers available to us.

Thank you. Child poverty in Wales is alarmingly high. Increasing energy bills and mortgage rates will only make this worse. Research from the Trussell Trust indicates that, in 2023-24, over 187,000 crisis food parcels were distributed, with one in 10 parcels going to babies and children under four years old. There is a clear link between poverty and instances of abuse and neglect. The NSPCC report an increase in the numbers of children being taken into care due to families being unable to provide food and clothing. To effectively tackle child poverty, we must simultaneously support families and prevent further crisis. Cabinet Secretary, what action is the Government taking to enhance poverty awareness within child protection practices? How will the Government address the urgent need for emergency food assistance in Wales this winter? And how can we proactively identify and support parents facing crises and poverty, not only at crisis point but into the future, through training, education and employment?

Thank you for that question. I'll just focus on emergency food assistance—this has come up this afternoon already—and confirm that, since 2019, we've allocated more than £22 million to support community food organisations. I know that you support them actively in your constituency, as do many across this Chamber, and that is about tackling food poverty. It is about, also, providing access and signposts to other services and allocating £1 million revenue and £1 million capital to support community food organisations that tackle food poverty. But, as I have said already, those cross-sector food partnerships in each local authority are crucial to get expertise and support from Public Health Wales, local health boards, public sector bodies, third sector, businesses, academics, local farmers, all together, multi-agency. And I mentioned Katie Palmer and Food Sense Wales, talking about the positive impacts of that. So, again, all of the work on Flying Start, input into Families First, the family information service, these are things where we have responsibilities and we are doing our best to deliver, in terms of tackling child poverty.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I wish for you to rule on a point of order issue. The Cabinet Secretary made a very robust statement here, that there were no foodbanks before the coalition, meaning the Conservative-Labour coalition—

Conservative-Lib Dems.

Yes, the Lib Dems. The point being that foodbanks were introduced in 2000 under a Labour Government. It's there in black and white. Google it. During the financial crash, they accelerated more. So, how has the introduction of foodbanks—

A point of order, please, not pointing to the Cabinet Secretary.

—under a Labour Government been twisted here today?

Right. It's not for me to rule on the answers given by a Cabinet Secretary, but you have raised this point, and it is on the record. I am sure that the Cabinet Secretary will review the contribution that she has made to ensure that any corrective action, if necessary, would be applied.

I would like her to withdraw the comment.

I have just ruled. Thank you.

I'm grateful to the Llywydd for that response. We are living in fractious times, but one thing that has united Members on all sides of this Chamber is support for the people of Ukraine. We are now looking at potentially three years since the invasion of Ukraine. We have an all-party group here that has pioneered working to support the people of Ukraine. Myself and the Member for Pontypridd, Mick Antoniw, will again be in Ukraine over half term, delivering medical aid and support for people there. 

As we approach this third anniversary, it's important that we again look at how we can provide support for people who are literally in the front line of Putin's invasion. As we remember the Holodomor genocide in the coming month, it will be important again to bring these matters to this Chamber, so that this Chamber can speak on behalf of the people of Wales.

But also, I hope that the Commission will help, support and facilitate the people of Wales in expressing their view that they want to continue to support the people of Ukraine. And I hope that the Commission will use all of its endeavours to ensure that the voice of the people of Wales is heard loud and clear: that we want an end to this invasion and we want the people of Ukraine to be able to live in peace and freedom. 

I wholeheartedly, as the Llywydd of this Senedd, endorse all of the comments that you have made, and have only praise for you and Mick Antoniw and any and everyone who has gone the extra mile to support the people of Ukraine as they face these atrocities that they are facing. Sometimes it is not such a big deal to fly a flag in support of a people or a cause, but I do consider the fact that we continue to fly the flag of Ukraine proudly on our Senedd estate—. Not once, I believe, have I been requested to remove that flag. I consider that that is solidarity, almost more than anything, that we can show as a Parliament to the Parliament of Ukraine and to the people of Ukraine.

Thank you for those comments. Following on from the points that have been made, of course, the next four vehicles, going this half term, will take the total up to 30 that have been delivered on behalf of the cross-party group. There's a famous photograph that's circulating of a Ukrainian solder—one of the ones killed very early on. He'd written on the boarding behind him 'Yma o hyd', and I think that actually represents the attitude of many of the people in Ukraine—that they're still there and still fighting for their independence.

What I'd ask in respect of the Commission is, really, two things. We have 8,000 Ukrainians in Wales since the invasion, 4,000 or so of whom are children, and the support they've had has been tremendous from Wales. But there are two things, I think, that are really important: one is the commemoration of the Holodomor, the famine that resulted in some 4 million plus people being starved, artificially starved by Stalin in the 1930s, which resonates today with events in Ukraine, and whether the Commission can actually give support to that. And the second one is, of course, that I think the time is right now, due to the particular links between Wales and Ukraine, which are quite unique—the establishment of Donetsk, Yuzovka, after John Hughes; the links with Gareth Jones; and also the industrial links—so that now would be appropriate, I think, to look forward, perhaps to next Easter, to a formal parliamentary delegation from this Senedd to Ukraine. I know that the Ukrainian Members of Parliament I've met would very much welcome that, and establishing more formal links between our two Parliaments. 

Thank you, Mick, for the questions and the issues that you've raised, and also for your work in supporting your beloved home country, if I can call it that, or the country of your forefathers. You have been a very strong advocate for the cause of Ukraine here in this Senedd and in Wales. And I still remember, as you speak of the 8,000 refugees from Ukraine who continue to live in Wales, one of those refugees coming to sing at our St David's Day event here. She was a soprano. She had been based at the Llangrannog Urdd camp when she first became a refugee here, and she sang in Welsh in our Senedd on St David's Day 2023, I think. She now lives in north Wales, has relocated to north Wales, and is still singing, from what I see on Facebook, in communities in north Wales. So, it's important for us to remember that these 8,000 people and more continue to live a long way from their home, and they will want to return—many of them, I'm sure—in as near a future as possible.

You asked two issues in particular: one on the recognition and support for the holding of a Holodomor memorial here in the Senedd. I'm more than happy for the Commission to work with the cross-party group on facilitating that. On the parliamentary delegation to the Parliament of Ukraine from our Senedd, I heard quite a bit of support across the Chamber for that. I would ask the cross-party group, or however you want to facilitate that, perhaps to think about how that parliamentary delegation would work. We're still in the context of Foreign Office advice to all of us as UK citizens not to travel to Ukraine, so there are issues for us to think about as a Senedd, a Parliament, as a Commission, in terms of facilitating that. But let's see what's possible, and let's talk across parties on how and if that can happen for next Easter.

Thank you, Llywydd. Back in May this year, I was sat in my Senedd office in Cardiff, diligently doing my work of scrutinising the Welsh Government, as we all do, when I found that I couldn't get hold of any Senedd Commission support staff whatsoever. I subsequently found out through an FOI that 95 per cent of the Commission workforce had taken a privilege day, which just so happened to fall straight after a bank holiday weekend. I appreciate that the Senedd was in recess, and that staff are entitled to take privilege days of their choosing, but I think it seriously inhibits the ability of Members to carry out their roles when, without notice to us, almost all of the Commission staff take the same day off. With this in mind, do you believe it is appropriate that so many staff members took their privilege day off all at once? And do you agree with me that having this number of staff off in one go seriously hinders the work of Senedd Members? Thank you.

I don't think it seriously hindered the work of Senedd Members. I'm sorry if it seriously hindered your work that you were unable to get hold of a Senedd Commission member of staff at that time on this estate. I would guess that there are members of our staff on this estate at all times, 24 hours a day. I can't quite answer the detail of your question, of course, because I don't know what kind of support you were looking for on that day in question.

This is the first time in 25 years that I've heard this particular issue raised. I doubt it's the first time that this has been the reality that most members of staff have taken a bank holiday or a privilege day at the same time. I suspect it's a pattern that's developed in the public sector over a very long time. I'm not aware that it's been an issue in the past. Please write to me if you believe that this is an issue that I should take up with our trade union partners and those representing our staff in the way we develop our services in the future. And please let me know as well on that particular date what kind of service you were looking for from Senedd Commission staff that was not available to you.

The estimated costs of enlarging the Senedd Siambr to accommodate extra Members are included in the Senedd's draft budget for 2025-26 as part of the capital costs associated with Senedd reform. I gave evidence two weeks ago to the Finance Committee, an hour’s evidence session, and there's lots of detail in there around the question that you've just asked.

The capital costs include physical adaptations to both the Senedd Siambr and Tŷ Hywel, which we are currently estimating at £3.874 million. The capital costs relate to the necessary adaptions to the Siambr to accommodate the enlarged Senedd of 96 Members and completion of Tŷ Hywel adaptations for new Member offices. Both projects will be subject to a competitive tender process to ensure value for money, but disclosing more detailed estimated costs in advance of procurement will of course preclude the Senedd's ability to obtain best value bids.

Diolch, Commissioner. The costs more generally of Senedd expansion seem to be spiralling as new challenges present themselves to Senedd Commissioners. What steps is the Commission taking to ensure that overall costs are kept to an absolute minimum?

I think you might be referring to the resource impact assessment that accompanied the Senedd Bill that my friend Mick Antoniw took through, now the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024. The resource impact assessment was lower than the current estimated costs, but only by £400,000. Now, in a project that takes place over two years, that is not a big difference between estimate and reality. The difference was that the capital costs have gone up, mainly because Members in this Chamber were consulted and wanted a specific type of Chamber. You could have expanded this Chamber with benches at the back and squashed everybody in, but that's not what Members wanted. Members wanted a specifically designed Chamber. So, the capital costs have gone up, but the staffing costs have gone down from 59 full-time equivalent staff to 47 full-time equivalent staff, which then accounts for that saving on the capital costs and the reason why the £400,000 figure is there.

We've also got a mechanism called the medium-term resource framework, which came in in 2022 and on a three-year rolling basis analyses costs, 71 per cent of which are staffing costs, and ensures that we are doing exactly as you suggest and making sure that those savings are found on an annual basis.

I heard you say there was a feeling that Members shouldn't be squashed up on benches at the back, which you said in your evidence to the Finance Committee is one of the capital pressures that are putting the budget up. Given the unease at the significant rise in the Senedd budget, would the Commission look again at providing a minimum viable option for the Senedd Chamber that didn't give everybody a desk? It would be suboptimal, I appreciate, but given the financial pressures, I think it would be appropriate to reconsider that. 

I think it would be helpful if the Member fed into the Member reference group that exists on this, of which Carolyn Thomas, I think, is a member as well. I think it's perfectly reasonable to make the point, but I think it would also need majority support across the Chamber, and I don't think that that majority support is there for it. 

Having said that, if there is a will in this Chamber to look at it, I'm sure it can be looked at. But one thing I would remind you again is that in my response to Laura Anne Jones I said that the capital costs had gone up, but the staffing costs had gone down. So, there is a balance in there that shows that that £400,000 increase on the RIA is not within the realms of what might be unlikely in such circumstances—it is a likely figure.

Therefore, I would want to keep in dialogue with you. I know I've sent you a copy of the evidence session, and I really appreciate the constructive dialogue that we've had—I genuinely appreciate that. I'll be presenting the Senedd budget in this Chamber on 20 November, I believe. I'm sure that we can have further discussions between now and then, and I'll be happy to do so.

Thank you for that answer. This has come from the fact that we went as a committee to Ireland and we saw the history there of their wonderful buildings and how they link to the past.

I brought my mum on a visit to the Bay and I asked her where would she like to visit, and she said, 'Tiger Bay'—we're here. I just think that Tiger Bay, here in Cardiff, has such a rich history and cultural heritage. It's home to Wales's oldest multicultural community, with sailors and workers from 50 different countries settling here from the mid-nineteenth century onwards. At one stage, Cardiff was the world's busiest dock for exports, dispatching 11 million tonnes of coal from the Valleys. And it just feels so new here. 

So, I was just wondering, because the home of the Senedd has such an impressive history to tell, if we could maybe improve signage to show the history of the past here, which is huge, isn't it, the multicultural history. I listened to a podcast about the Casablanca Club, which sounded fantastic. I just feel that that's the bit that's missing sometimes in the Bay. Thank you.

I think Tiger Bay is much changed. I remember tweeting once that I'd quite like to change the address of this place from 'Senedd Cymru, Cardiff Bay, Cardiff' to 'Senedd Cymru, Tiger Bay, Cardiff'. I still haven't quite managed to do that, but Tiger Bay is how many people fondly remember this area and the communities that live here. There's a long discussion as to how Tiger Bay became Cardiff Bay and how different the community that we inhabit as a Senedd is to the communities where people around us live.

It's quite a complex, interesting, varied history. We tell part of that story here. We probably, as your mother encountered, don't tell enough of that story here. If your mother would like to be an adviser to us on how we can improve the telling of that story and what maybe we should develop further in terms of how we are able to properly reflect where this Senedd, as a building, has arisen from, not just in its political history throughout Wales, but also in the heart of this community that we now inhabit, we can look to take on new ideas, and work with communities locally here as well, as to how they want to reflect their history and their current situation in our Senedd building. So, thank you for the challenge, and we'll give that some more thought. And thank your mother too.

A serious incident was declared by Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board on 10 October. Following a detailed structural survey, the health board are developing the strategy to replace the oldest section of the roof at pace. Immediate action to ensure staff and patient safety has been implemented.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The shocking revelations that the roof of the Princess of Wales Hospital was in such a state of disrepair that the roof could collapse are extremely worrying for my constituents. This is the major hospital for Bridgend and the surrounding area, and, whilst the impact on patients and staff is not fully understood at this stage, it will be extremely disruptive to patient care. Thankfully, the rotting joints were discovered before any catastrophic failure occurred, but if the roof had not leaked in the recent storms, it could have been a different story. What additional support is the Welsh Government providing to support the local health board to mitigate the impact the repairs will have on patients in my region? Will the Welsh Government look to set up an inquiry to look into the reasons as to why this issue was not picked up sooner through routine structural surveys and to avoid this heightening situation at other hospitals?

As the Member will know, health boards are responsible for the safe operation and management of their estate, and this includes identifying key risks in terms of patient and staff safety and building conditions. The health board are now looking at all the options available to them to ensure they can continue to provide care in a safe environment for those patients and staff currently accommodated in ward areas, and, of course, those who will need care in the future. The options that they are considering will need to include the use of the whole health board estate, to make sure that they have the capacity to meet all of their patients’ needs.

The Member asked me specifically in relation to discussions with the Welsh Government, and I hope it’s of some reassurance to him to know that my officials are continuing to engage with the health boards generally in terms of backlog maintenance, which, due to the age of the estate, continues to present a challenge.

Residents in my regional constituency of South Wales Central, if they live in the western Vale, basically look to the Princess of Wales Hospital for the bulk of their referrals. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary: when did the Government become aware of this? Because it was my understanding that, with the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete surveys that were undertaken of all public buildings some two years ago, one would have thought that this type of catastrophic failure in the beams of the hospital could have been identified, or some warning sign given, because, undoubtedly, this is going to have a massive impact on services in the Princess of Wales area.

Could you answer when the Welsh Government were alerted to this, and whether the Welsh Government have made resources available for the utilisation of other parts of the Cwm Taf estate to be made available to patients and clinicians? Because I’m pretty sure this is outside the normal means of the health board to be able to fund such alternative arrangements in a timely manner.

The survey results were made known to the health board shortly before the declaration of the incident was made on 10 October, and my officials are in discussion, through the capital team of the Welsh Government. They’re fully linked in with colleagues at the health board to make sure that any further capital requests are being discussed on an ongoing basis.

Thank you for the question, Altaf, and it is an excellent question. Of course, this incident also exemplifies the deteriorating condition of the NHS estate more broadly. On the Welsh Government’s watch, the high-risk maintenance backlog alone has reached £0.25 billion, up from £32 million in 2016. It’s a damning indictment of the Welsh Government’s neglect of the very foundations of our health system. Alarmingly, the UK Labour Government’s spending plans imply a further squeeze in resources, at a time when the NHS is literally crumbling before our eyes—

Mabon, can I ask you to focus on the topical question on the Princess of Wales, please?

Well, my question is around the broader issue of the safety of the hospital estate and the NHS estate, which ties into the question raised by Altaf. Therefore, thinking about the Princess of Wales Hospital as well, will the Cabinet Secretary write to Rachel Reeves to demand that the upcoming autumn statement includes a real-terms increase in Wales’s capital budget over the coming financial year, so that he and the Government can get to grips with issues in this hospital, and the estate more broadly?

I will specifically answer the question in relation to the Princess of Wales Hospital, since that is the nature of the question that Members have placed on the floor of the Chamber. What we have seen is the impact of a decade and more of austerity in Westminster, and given the way we are funded, that has had a consequence on the fabric of the NHS estate in all parts of the UK, in relation to the upkeep of the estate—[Interruption.] Dirprwy Lywydd, I can’t quite hear what the leader of the opposition is asking me from the frontbench. 

The leader of the opposition should not be making any comments from a sedentary position; I’m sure he’s allowing you to continue your answer.  

I’m grateful to you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The damage to the roof of the Princess of Wales Hospital is, unfortunately, the latest example of that. Our capital budget this year is worth up to around 8 per cent less in real terms than expected at the time of the spending review in 2021. I would say, though, that health boards are provided with a discretionary capital allocation each year to support key risks, and dedicated capital funding of £24 million for infrastructure works has also been made in addition, available over the last two years, to support particular risks across the NHS estate. But Members here will appreciate that, in all parts of the UK, the NHS has been under incredible pressure from capital investment. 

Two colleagues now have asked you when the Welsh Government first became aware, and in the second answer I heard it was only six days ago, on 10 October, that there was a problem at the Princess of Wales hospital. I've spoken this morning with staff that work and have worked at Princess of Wales Hospital and here are some of the stories that they've been telling me: last year, there was a leak in one of the bays, patients had to be moved, shuffled along, so they were closer together; PCs couldn't be turned on one day because of a leak coming through the roof; patients were routinely being moved; and concerns were even raised about the respiratory ward in Princess of Wales Hospital, where, as you can imagine, a leak would have a severe impact on the well-being of the patients in that ward. It that is true, that the Welsh Government was only aware of this only six days ago, it suggests a heck of a lot of neglect, I think, on the part of this Welsh Labour Government in terms of looking after the estate of the Princess of Wales Hospital. So, can you clarify for the record that you had no concerns about the estate of the Princess of Wales Hospital prior to 10 October? 

As I made clear in my answer to the previous question, the responsibility for the condition of the estate that they manage is that of the health board. We make available capital funding to the health boards in order to be able to address key concerns as they arise. I also confirmed that the statement was made by the health board on 10 October in relation to the particular incident affecting the roof of the Princess of Wales hospital, and Welsh Government officials were made aware of the particular situation in the days before that. 

Of course, this is deeply concerning news, and I think it's important that we recognise the stress that this has put on staff and thank them for their professionalism in dealing with the situation. We are, now, in a situation where major traumas can't be dealt with in the emergency department, and many people in Bridgend and the surrounding communities have raised this as an issue with me, either on the doorstep or through getting in direct contact with my office. The main question I'm getting is, 'How long are we going to have to wait for this to be remedied?' So, I wanted to seek an update on the likely timescales of the remedial works today. I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary might not have that detail to hand at the moment, but the main reason for asking for that timeline is so that we, as Members, then, can communicate with our constituents on how long this is roughly going to take and how long they will need to wait for the emergency department to be brought back up to where it should be. 

I thank Luke Fletcher for that, and I absolutely endorse the points that he made about thanking the staff for working in these very difficult circumstances not of their making. That is obviously going to be incredibly challenging. And thank you as well to the health board staff, more broadly, making the arrangements that are so crucial to respond to this new challenge. I don't have, I'm afraid, the timescale yet, because that work is still being worked through, but I'll be happy to update Members, as and when that's available. 

Diolch, Peter. The Welsh Government works closely with local authorities to understand the pressures they face. Ministers meet regularly with leaders individually and through relevant groups. I will be meeting leaders individually over the coming months, with the finance sub-group on 22 October, and the partnership council on 25 November. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and we have already discussed the pressures that local authorities are facing this year. However, I think the WLGA statement yesterday that came out showed the gravity of the situation even more so, where the local government family is facing an astonishing £540 million-worth of pressures. That is an unprecedented amount. We already have heard from two local authorities concerned that they are facing bankruptcy, and there could be more to follow. I know that there are many on the brink, facing similar situations, and we cannot continue to ignore the situation. It is very real, it is very much growing.

I note that, in a quote from the UK Government yesterday, they said that they are committed to working with you to achieve the best possible funding for local councils in Wales. However, if what we also have heard—the national insurance increases on employers—is coming forward, let’s recognise that there are about 140,000 people employed in local government alone. You can see how the additional pressure will put additional burdens on top of the £540 million as it is.

We know that the public service workforce in Wales is currently between 329,000 and, if you take in private contractors who’d be working with local authorities, it’s more like 480,000. We know, at the lower figure, that even a 1 per cent increase on national insurance for employers would increase the bill for local authorities to a region of £100 million. If it went to 2 per cent, you’re talking of £200 million. That is an additional burden. At the end of the day, councils, we know, provide vital public services for the people of Wales, and financial pressures will force councils to pass on costs down to working families who cannot afford that anymore.

So, to help mitigate this and future pressures, are you considering any funding mechanisms to fend off more council bankruptcies, or potential bankruptcies, things like floors in funding settlements? I’m conscious there must be things you must be thinking of now, ahead of the budget, recognising this huge hole that is opening up and the potential for more pressure to come following the budget on the thirtieth.

Diolch, Peter. Thank you very much for your question. First of all, I’d like to put on record again my thanks to the workforce, who do a tremendous amount within local authorities, who work day in, day out, to provide services that we all value. I acknowledge the challenge that councils are facing. I can assure you that I’m certainly not ignoring the situation.

I welcome the early opportunity for engagement on budget planning with the WLGA and councils. The WLGA will be providing a paper for the finance sub-group at that meeting on 22 October, which I mentioned, outlining the financial and service challenges facing Welsh councils. This is a key part of developing the Welsh Government budget, and I’m pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language will also join that discussion.

Today, I’ve been out, as I have been, speaking to local authority leaders and to chief executives—I've met with Powys today—and heard directly from them. That’s something that I think is really important, to listen and to hear about the challenges that they face directly.

Councils are balancing key services such as social care and education with other areas like the economy and culture, and they’re facing an increasing demand from that range of services. We know they’ll be planning on a range of budget scenarios, and these will be being updated as they and we get greater clarity from the UK Government. We are, obviously, in those discussions with local authorities, the WLGA as well, and I think working together is really important and to have those conversations and to make sure we’re doing all we can to support local authorities in Wales.

In 2018, Northamptonshire County Council issued a section 114 notice. Since then, Slough, Croydon, Thurrock, Woking, Birmingham city and Nottingham city have issued notices. In recent months, many other local authorities have reported that they may soon be forced to do the same. As can be seen, size is no protection, with Birmingham, the largest council in Europe, being on this list. Both Labour and Conservative councils are on the list. We have not had a bankruptcy of a council in Wales because of better settlements and also good political management and good departmental management, but that can’t continue forever. Does the Minister agree we need a council settlement for next year that ensures no Welsh council goes bankrupt?

Diolch, Mike. As I said, I fully acknowledge the challenge that councils have been facing over a number of years. Despite the level of support Welsh Government has been able to give over those years, we’ve been through a really long period of public sector austerity, with increasing demands in major services, plus that pandemic and an extraordinary inflationary period. So, there have been huge challenges here but also, as you mentioned, huge challenges in England as well, and that's something that I've been hearing in my discussions with Welsh local authority leaders over the last few months. 

You're right, Mike—there has been no issuing of section 114 notices or no notices of bankruptcy in Wales. We're working hard and we're not taking that for granted, and we've heard of and you've listed some of the local authorities in England that have had to take those significant steps. Issuing a 114 notice is a significant step that no council, I know, in Wales would wish to take. Its immediate effect would be freeze new spending until the council agreed a new financial plan to balance its books. If necessary, I do have powers of intervention but, of course, that would not be a step I would take lightly.

In Wales, we are jointly developing with local authorities—which is really important—a protocol to apply in case of significant financial challenge. Once finalised, this protocol will be agreed through the finance sub-group. The protocol will set out a range of potential options for support. This will not include additional access to additional funding, but rather non-financial and technical steps, including, where appropriate, capitalisation directions. So, for example, a direction could permit the use of capital receipts or borrowing for revenue purposes, and this is consistent with the support available in England.

We've heard from a number of councils that they're going to have to make further cuts to a number of their services that they don't have a legal duty to provide. For example, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council are planning to withdraw funding from some school transport, and Caerphilly County Borough Council is consulting on the same, not to mention huge cuts in libraries. Cuts like this will have a disproportionate effect on those already most vulnerable in Wales, who have already been facing a historic cost-of-living crisis.

What support is the Welsh Government offering to support the most vulnerable who will be losing services from local government budget cuts, and what discussions has this Government been having with UK Government to ensure that there are consequentials that provide fair funding for our struggling councils in the upcoming budget? How hopeful are you that disaster can be averted? 

Diolch, Peredur. I'll just say that our financial position remains extremely challenging, and we know that we face difficult decisions as we prepare for the 2025-26 budget in the Senedd. We'll have a firm settlement to 2025-26 and a better idea about the likely trajectory of public service funding in future years after the UK Government statement on 30 October. 

As in previous draft budgets, we will protect front-line public services as far as possible, and continue to target support towards those with greatest need. We'll not be able to do all the things that we want to do, so it's vital that we invest in those areas that can have the greatest impact, particularly if there's no additional funding. And I think it's important to note that our relationship with local government is that partnership approach, and that we'll work with local government through this difficult time, as we have done over the last few years as well.  

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to highlight an initiative being promoted by the High Sheriff of West Glamorgan, Melanie James, of providing critical bleed control kits. The principal aim is to equip public locations with readily accessible bleed control kits that are both highly effective and simple to use. This measure will undoubtedly save lives, providing immediate life-saving assistance before the emergency services can arrive.

While people often associate bleed control kits with knife crime, there are numerous other instances where these kits have been used to control catastrophic bleeding due to accidents, including road traffic collisions, and dog bites. The scheme has adopted the Daniel Baird Foundation kit, which has been provided across England and British territories. Martyn's law is progressing as the Government published its draft legislation outlining requirements for venues and other organisations to ensure public safety, including the provision of bleed control kits. 

Cody's law, currently at the petition stage, also calls for all public venues to have bleed-control kits. The kit includes military-grade equipment, such as Foxseal Celox gauze, Code Red tourniquets, large trauma dressings, emergency shears, gloves, foil, blankets, face shields and a marker pen. The kit has a five-year expiry date and elements can be replaced if required at any time. A training video is widely available and promoted on social media. The aim is to install these kits within current defibrillator boxes in public spaces, such as schools, shops and sports venues. The initiative is supported by the Wales ambulance service, South Wales Police, Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and others. The support of Heartbeat Trust UK brings invaluable expertise and resources, reinforcing the project's capacity to make a substantial impact. The provision of these critical bleed-control kits, and the associated training, will empower citizens, increase community resilience and help them contribute to a safer environment for everybody in west Glamorgan.

I move.

I feel, given the oratory we've just heard, it's worth me responding on behalf of the Business Committee to say that the intention of this committee, of course, is to consider the future operation of the Senedd in the seventh Senedd, after the next set of elections. It will be a rather different Senedd, with many more Members, and that provides us with an opportunity to look at how the business of this Senedd works, how we can broaden its appeal, and how, of course, we can improve, most importantly, its scrutiny processes and help to bring down those barriers that have prevented this Senedd from being more diverse than it has been in the past. Those are its principal aims. That doesn't preclude, of course, the committee from looking beyond, within the time frame that has clearly been set today, or is proposed to be set today, by May 2025, so that we can get things done in good and timely fashion ready for the Senedd elections that will follow in 2026. But, of course, it's incumbent upon all of us, as individual Members, to reach beyond the walls of this Senedd, as I know the overwhelming majority of us do, to communicate with the public, to engage with them, to ask them how they want this Senedd to operate in the future.

We all know that we had a debate on the size and shape of the Senedd, but now that that debate is over, and the dust is beginning to settle, it does give us the opportunity to make the most of this opportunity that is presented to us all, and it's incumbent on every one of us in this Chamber to make sure that this is the best Parliament it can possibly be, and the best representative of the public, all of the people of Wales, that it can possibly be in the future. I know that I'm committed to that, I know that all Members of this Chamber, hopefully, are committed to that, and I certainly know that the Business Committee, the Senedd Commission—and it was, of course, from the joint work of both of those committees, that this new Future Senedd Committee emerged—are certainly committed to it. And I know that the Members who will be participating in this committee, once it is established, will certainly ensure that the views of all Members of this Chamber are heard, in addition to the members of the public that we serve.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's not often that I take inspiration from Westminster, but this legislative proposal echoes similar proposals brought forward by the Labour MP, Matt Western, in 2021, and the Conservative MP, Paul Holmes, in 2023. Both had similar experiences to many of us in this Senedd of supporting residents in their fight against either the opening of or the extension of a quarry in close proximity to residential homes, schools and community facilities. Both also came to realise how inadequate and outdated planning legislation was when deciding on such developments. Communities are left having to fight against large multinationals with plentiful resources at their disposal to quash any local opposition. What's abundantly clear is that it isn't a fair fight.

Using the example of one quarry in my region, Craig-yr-Hesg in Glyncoch on the outskirts of Pontypridd, I hope to persuade all of you today of the need to legislate, so that there is, in future, a presumption against approving quarry development in close proximity to settlements. Further, that there must be a mandatory buffer zone of 1,000m for all new and existing quarries.

Craig-yr-Hesg quarry has operated since 1885, and provides blue pennant sandstone, one of the highest quality skid-resistant surfacing aggregates in the UK, and is used on motorways and airport runways. The extraction and working of minerals or depositing mineral waste at the site was due to end on 31 December 2022, followed by a restoration and aftercare programme. This was a promise made to the local community when that planning application was made. However, that proved to be a broken promise. The company in charge of the quarry subsequently put forward two planning applications to extend both the area quarried as well as the life of the quarry.

Over 400 objections were received from local residents, Pontypridd Town Council and many elected representatives, including myself. Indeed, so compelling were the arguments put forward that the local planning authority, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, rejected both applications on the basis of the impact of blasting on people's health and well-being. The community breathed a sigh of relief, but this proved to be short lived, as a planning appeal was submitted to Planning and Environment Decisions Wales, which resulted in the Welsh Government's then Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, granting permission. To say the community was devastated is an understatement—

Would you take an intervention?

I'd be happy to. 

Just on that point, I think you've made the point that the Minister did what she did, but she did so because she had to minimise the risk of a judicial review, and that judicial review on the current planning grounds would have led to that decision being overturned and the Government having to pay costs. I'm not suggesting you're making any aspersions on the Minister, but she had very little choice in the decision she took.

But that's the point of the debate, if you will, that the planning process is inadequate to deal with the situation, and that's what the legislation is proposing to rectify.

The main objections from residents can therefore be summarised as follows: health concerns related to dust pollution from the quarry and pollution from the vehicles linked to the quarry; concerns over the impact of blasting on homes and infrastructure, including the highway and flood defence wall on Berw Road—photos of cracks appearing in walls of homes following blasting were submitted as evidence; loss of biodiversity and green spaces in the area the quarry would extend to; and the proximity of the quarry to homes, a school and community facilities, within 150m and within 100m of the crusher.

Although the inspector in the Craig-yr-Hesg appeal accepted that the quarry caused stress and anxiety to local residents, they did not accept that blasting at the quarry had caused any damage, as the photos were not supported by a structural survey. Similarly, though residents submitted photos of large dust clouds above the quarry and cited examples of ill health that they believed were linked to the quarry, they didn't have expert reports to support their opinion. Neither was the loss of biodiversity considered a strong enough argument. Simply put, everything was assumed to be hearsay because residents didn't have at their disposal the hundreds of thousands of pounds they would need to conduct in-depth monitoring and analysis to either prove or disprove their fears, as well as a team of first-rate lawyers and barristers to fight the case.

Simply put, they didn't stand a chance under the current system, which places economic benefit above everything else. This is especially true for communities like Glyncoch, who are in essence then costed out of being able to oppose any development, no matter what impact it may have on them. More and more evidence is now coming to light about the impact of invisible particulates and noxious gases on public health, with the World Health Organization in recent years changing its guidance quite dramatically on this matter. The Environmental Working Group, a US-based group specialising in research and advocacy, has stated that

'none of the air quality standards for silica are adequate to protect people living or working near sand mining sites. The danger of airborne silica is especially acute for children'.

In fact, the group has concerns for any residents living within 1,500m of any excavation site, because of the way the dust particles will disperse, following evidence gathered in open sand mines in Wisconsin and Minnesota, which found that silica levels were at least 10 times higher than the recommended limit of 3 µg per cubic metre. Is it any wonder that the residents are scared?

This legislation would take the onus away from residents to prove or disprove the impact of the quarry, and mean that all factors, including impact on health, were investigated as part of the planning process. I look forward to hearing from other contributors to the debate, and will keep my remaining remarks to close the debate.

Thank you to Heledd Fychan for bringing this debate forward. I spent most of Monday afternoon at the Tŷ Penallta council offices for a three-hour meeting of the Bryn Group—. I think it's called the Bryn compost liaison group. The company is called Bryn Group. They have a quarry very close to residents' houses, and part of the discussion is to liaise with them to try and manage their blasting processes. What we've also managed to do through the committee is to get the council to place dust monitoring on residents' houses in Penybryn and Gelligaer, and we've seen through that that the level of silica and level of particulate is at a very safe level, so we've got reassurance in our community. But nonetheless, residents complain about blasting. They complain that it causes their windows to shake, and others have complained about cracks in the wall.

Therefore, I've looked carefully at this Member's legislative proposal and spoken with residents about it. I am concerned about the third item, which is to effectively make quarry developments developments of national significance. What that would do is take away from the community the decision-making process. It would mean that it would be for the Minister to decide these things, rather than the local authorities themselves. So, I have reservations about that. Given the general thrust of the argument that Heledd Fychan put, perhaps it's important to say that I've been convinced by an argument put in this Chamber and therefore I will support the motion, but I do have reservations about certain parts of what the legislative proposal is, particularly that third part. 

Finally, I wanted to say that there is a way around this immediately. I've looked up the—. I've got so many documents in front of me, I can't find it, but I looked up the 'Minerals Technical Advice Note (Wales) 1: Aggregates' 2004 regulation. It hasn't been updated since 2004, it still talks about Welsh Assembly Government and Assembly Members. I think it would be well worth the Minister having a look at that and considering what issues in there could be addressed to address the concerns that I've raised today and that Heledd has raised as well, because there is certainly opportunity to do that. I think legislation, though, may go too far if it is not very carefully designed, and I've mentioned those reservations. A revisit and a review would be important. 

And finally, my last point—this is my last point—is that if you applied it today, it wouldn't be retrospective, so it wouldn't affect previous planning decisions, it wouldn't affect the quarry in Gelligaer, it wouldn't affect the quarry that you were referring to, so there is that problem as well. And perhaps I can suggest to you that we might request together a meeting with the Minister to talk about communities affected by quarrying. I'd be more than happy to do that, and perhaps I could invite Delyth Jewell as well, as a regional Member, to discuss these issues and see if we can have a response from the Minister on it. 

I rise to speak in favour of this motion, particularly on the buffer zones and for greater consideration of the well-being of future generations Act. Members here will know, I'm sure, because I've raised this before, that there are concerns about extending a limestone quarry in Denbigh, which is right on the edge of town. There will be environmental impacts. We know that native trees, broadleaf trees over 100 years old, will be felled. They're home to scarce wildlife—pied flycatchers, redstarts, several species of bats—and you can't replace those trees or recreate that environment overnight. So, there's loss of valuable wildlife.

In terms of economic impacts, it will, yes, allow improved mining yield for Breedon Ltd, the company who are seeking the extension, but there are concerns at the nearby industrial estate about the impact of dust and vibrations from blasting at the quarry on high-end precision operations that are actually being carried out at the industrial site. Social and well-being is something else, of course. We know it's going to have an impact in Denbigh particularly—the rerouting of public footpaths, wider impacts on access to popular walking spots, impacts of increased noise levels, an effect on air quality—all blighting nearby homes, potentially.

I'd also like to draw Members' attention to the fact that, of course, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee has recently been doing an inquiry on restoring opencast sites, and we've had the earth being promised around restoration at some of these sites, but time and time again, those promises are reneged upon by certain parties. Lessons need to be learned, I would argue, and the voices of local residents need to be considered. I mentioned the well-being of future generations Act, the environmental, the economic, the social—these are the impacts that people are grappling with when faced with these proposals for quarrying and extending quarries. So, let's support the motion, let's learn the lessons from Craig-yr-Hesg, from opencast and elsewhere, and let's not subject other communities like Denbigh to similar risks and impacts in the future. 

There is much in this motion to commend it. As referenced by the proposer, it is taken, in large part, from the Westminster private Member's Planning (Quarries) Bill proposed by Conservative MP Paul Holmes, which had a First Reading in the House of Commons in March last year. It's a Bill, quote, 

'to introduce a presumption in planning decision-making against approving quarry development in close proximity to settlements; to require the risks of proposed quarrying sites to the environment and to public health to be assessed as part of the planning process; to provide that the decision on a planning application for quarry development may only be made by the Secretary of State; and for connected purposes.'

Therefore, there's great similarity. But in a devolved context, of course, the Secretary of State has been replaced with the relevant Welsh Government Minister, with consideration given to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We should not, therefore, in my view. vote against this motion.

However, there is concern that the motion before us today also proposes that the Senedd sets a mandatory buffer zone of 1,000m for all new and existing quarries. To apply this to all existing quarries arbitrarily—and without impact assessments—risks impacting negatively on jobs, local economies, and the sustainable supply of key materials. Further, setting a mandatory buffer zone of 1,000m for all new quarries irrespective of local circumstance and demand for the materials arbitrarily and without impact assessments could mean, for example, that materials key to energy transition and energy security located at 990m away from a settlement could not be accessed.

It is therefore prudent to instead focus action on introducing a presumption in planning processes against approving quarry development in close proximity to settlements, as proposed in both the UK Planning (Quarries) Bill considered in 2023 and in the first part of the motion we’re debating today. I would therefore have to reluctantly abstain in a vote on the motion as currently drafted, whilst supporting the general principle.

I speak in support of this proposal and to highlight the effects being felt by my constituents near two quarry sites: Gelligaer, which has been mentioned, and Ffos-y-fran.

In Gelligaer, the Bryn Group have recently put in an application to expand their quarry. I’ve been contacted by a number of residents who live near the quarry and who suffer daily with noise pollution, with dust, vibrations in their houses, and unpleasant smells. I’m aware that, over a number of years, concerns have also been raised about plastic littering the fields nearby, but the focus of this proposal, of course, is the need to introduce a mandatory buffer zone of 1,000m for all new and existing quarries.

I would argue that that is patently needed to avoid things like this happening again. In Gelligaer and in Penybryn, near this quarry, people living there don’t only suffer with noise; I’ve been sent photos by residents who have complained about structural damage to their properties. They’re worried this will lead to issues with their insurance and that any further extension of that quarry could lead to their homes being devalued.

There is a mental health effect from all this too. Residents have written to explain how their children, their loved ones and family pets have all been frightened by the blasts at the quarry, and residents with no access to social media aren’t able to find out when blasts will occur on different days, so they can’t prepare. This is no way to live. We surely need a buffer zone between quarries and residential properties, not to mention schools and community spaces. There are, of course, also issues around air quality and pollution. This proposal could start to address the risks of quarry sites to the environment and biodiversity, and, of course, to public health.

At Ffos-y-fran, an opencast site is located only 40m from some people’s homes. I’ve raised my concerns about that site and the way it’s been managed many times in the Senedd, and the climate change committee has recently conducted an inquiry into opencast sites. These two phenomena share many different characteristics. Had a buffer zone been in place already to prevent something like Ffos-y-fran happening, it would have saved the anguish of those residents who have also had to put up with noise pollution and dust and disruption.

I am very grateful to Heledd for bringing this idea forward. I really hope that it does pass and that more time can be given to looking at how some of these proposals can be taken forward. I would, as well, pay tribute to my predecessor Jocelyn Davies, who put forward an idea for a buffer zone 19 years ago in 2005. Time and again, the motions that we’ve put forward have been rebuffed by the Welsh Government, and I hope sincerely that that will change today.

As Chair of the Petitions Committee, I wanted to draw your attention to a petition that will be considered by the committee in a few weeks’ time. The petition has 1,585 signatures, 79 per cent of which come from South Wales Central, showing the concentration of strong feelings in that area. The petition reads:

‘1000 meter mandatory buffer zone for all new and existing quarries

'Ensure mandatory buffer zone for all new and existing quarries in Wales. We propose at least 1,000.00 meters buffer zone from all residential areas, schools, hospitals, and care facilities. Currently the law allows for quarries to be located as close as 200 meters away from residential areas and schools. This is affecting people's health and causing damage to property. The bigger buffer zone we can have the better.'

Clearly, this is an issue that has struck a chord with people in Pontypridd and the Cynon valley, and I look forward to meeting campaigners when they bring their petition to the Senedd in November.

Personally, as a north Walian, we are impacted by a lot of quarries, and I would like to see the aggregates levy fund for Wales reinstated. The impact of noise and vibration from quarries and lorries that are getting bigger is huge on neighbouring communities. Sometimes, you have two or three rattling through at a time, even more. It's non-stop. The fund made a big difference for investment in community assets such as play areas and community facilities, and would be very welcome at a time when other funding is in short supply. I recently wrote to the Cabinet Secretary for finance about this issue and was pleased to hear he is looking at this further, with conversations with UK Government about the possible devolution of the levy. I know I've written to the previous Cabinet Secretary as well on this issue.

From my membership on the climate change and infrastructure committee, I have seen how no single body is willing to take responsibility for compliance with remediation works on former quarries and coal tips. It's concerning that planning applications are being granted for new quarries, as it is thought that this is the only way for remediation to take place, putting us back to square one. Today's debate has provided an opportunity to hear more about the issues such as the impact on residents and all the ecology nearby, and I thank you for the opportunity for this debate today. Thank you.

I thank Heledd Fychan for bringing forward the legislative proposal today and all colleagues for the very sincere series of contributions that we've had this afternoon.

I'm also aware of the petition that has been submitted to the Petitions Committee on the same matter, and I have responded to a letter from the Petitions Committee, setting out the Welsh Government's position. Heledd Fychan particularly referred to the residents who've raised concerns relating to the activities at Craig yr Hesg quarry, although we did hear others mentioned during the course of the debate as well. Local planning authorities have powers to investigate potential breaches of planning control. Responsibility for enforcing planning control, including conditions attached to permission granted following a successful appeal, now lies with the council. So, the possibility of enforcement action also means that the case might again be presented to Welsh Ministers, and, at that time, it would be to determine an enforcement appeal. So, that possibility means that I can't comment on the particular planning merits of this site, because I don't want to prejudice those proceedings. So, I'm going to avoid mentioning particular sites during the response to the debate.

The sustainable supply of minerals and aggregates is essential to support economic development in Wales. It's the role of the planning system to then balance society's need for minerals against the protection of amenity. But I do appreciate that these decisions are often very controversial, but they're also very localised, which is why they are best dealt with locally through the appropriate policies in local development plans. So, I don't agree that new legislation would be appropriate or effective, as circumstances do vary on a case-by-case basis.

'Planning Policy Wales' and 'Minerals Technical Advice Note Wales 1: aggregates' are the principal source of national policy and provide comprehensive and robust guidance about controlling the impacts of quarrying. Planning policy is more nuanced than legislation could be, and it is capable of being more locally place based and sensitive, reflecting local circumstances. And, of course, it is kept under regular review.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

When I spoke, I mentioned MTAN and the fact that it hasn't been updated since 2004. Is there merit in us asking you to review and update it in the light of some of the issues that have been mentioned today?

I will explore these issues that have been raised in the Chamber this afternoon with officials, and should evidence suggest that that policy or advice is no longer up to date then we'll certainly give consideration to reviewing that guidance. And again, that sort of thing wouldn't be so easily achieved through the legislative route. So, guidance does give us more flexibility to be responsive.

One of the key principles in our policy is to provide for the safeguarding and working of mineral resources to meet society's needs, both now and in the future, encouraging efficient and appropriate use of high-quality materials. The system already requires the consideration of impacts on the environment, biodiversity and public health and they should be assessed as part of the existing planning process for new quarries and for extensions to existing quarries.

The primary purpose of the buffer zones is to limit the impact of mineral working and to protect land uses that are most sensitive to the impact of mineral operations by establishing that separation distance between potentially conflicting land uses. The minimum distances of the buffer zones that are currently set out in MTAN1 of 200m for hard rock, and 100m for sand and gravel, were arrived at after thorough and careful consideration and consultation with a number of interested and informed stakeholders. Introducing a mandatory buffer zone of 1,000m could bring about some unintended consequences, which would prevent the use of land for other uses, prohibiting or adversely impacting on the provision of key infrastructure, such as house building, for example. And I do think that Mark Isherwood really captured those potential unintended consequences really well in his contribution—

Sorry. Would you take an intervention? With those buffer zones, have they taken into account the World Health Organization's updated guidance in terms of what is considered safe at the moment in terms of particles and so on? Guidance has changed significantly there. Also, the fact that we do have the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act, the clean air Bill—. Surely, we need to relook at the latest information. The World Health Organization—for them to change their guidance so dramatically, does that not mean that we should be revisiting the latest possible information here?

As I said in my response to Hefin David, if the evidence does suggest that we need to review these things, then we will. So, as I said, I will take seriously all of the contributions in the debate this afternoon and explore things further with officials.

But it's also worth recognising as well that what's being proposed today would only apply, I think, to new quarries, rather than existing quarries; it could apply, I think, to those quarries that are seeking to expand as well. But I think that that is part of the issue. What is being proposed today is very blunt and, as Mark Isherwood set out, there are some potential unintended consequences as well.

MTAN 1, though, does make it clear that the potential impact on health must always be considered in relation to proposals for aggregates extraction, and a health impact assessment should be carried out for any proposal for a new quarry or sand and gravel pit located within a kilometre of an existing community, and our policy does recognise that well-established liaison committees also help to give better local understanding of the impacts to be expected from aggregates extraction. 

I know that many quarries have established liaison committees that act as that forum for regular discussion and explanation, and they can be set up on the initiative of either the local planning authority or the operator. I think that we heard, again, from Hefin David of a good example of where those committees have provided some good work, which then gave residents a level of reassurance in terms of the testing that was undertaken. But I think that there's definitely room for more as well. Some of the contributions talked about the lack of communication—for example, when to expect loud noises and so on. So, I think there's definitely space to improve communication as well, so I'll explore that.

As I mentioned earlier, minerals are essential for our continued economic development, and quarries provide the essential raw materials to enable the building of homes, schools, infrastructure and green energy projects. They also play a really vital role in supporting the Welsh construction sector, which represents 6 per cent of the Welsh economy.

I can see the Deputy Presiding Officer looking sternly at me, so I'll—

I've given you the time for the interventions; you need to wind up now.

Thank you. I will conclude. So, our policy position is to actively reduce the proportion of primary aggregates used in relation to secondary, recycled or waste materials, and we continue to make progress in that area. Then, finally, to say that so many communities have grown up—and local economies have grown up—around quarries, as the work that was offered there.

Looking ahead, it's really important to recognise that any legislation of the type described today would only apply to those new sites, because the current ones exist under the consents and regulations that were provided at the time. I just want to finally conclude by saying that there will always be an element of tension and conflict where quarrying is concerned, but the system is trying to be responsive to that, and, as I say, these are local issues that I think are best dealt with locally.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to all who have contributed to this debate today. I have to say, I am very disappointed by that response. I think that there's a lack of acknowledgement or understanding that these are actually, yes, localised decisions, but a national issue. You can see the spread of contributions. They're everywhere that is impacted by a quarry. People in those communities feel voiceless, are powerless, and are costed out of being able to oppose, of being able to understand the impact and persuade planning authorities. So, I hope that you will listen to what has been said today, in terms of that something is fundamentally broken in that planning system. It can't be fixed by one local authority, and I welcome Hefin David's suggestion that, all of us who are interested in this, if we could perhaps come together, because there is something not working at present.

I'd like to pay tribute to, and record my admiration for, all the individuals and groups who are working hard in all of these communities to highlight their concerns and campaign for change; some from the Craig-yr-Hesg quarry campaign are here today. They are diligently scrutinising decisions, collating evidence that they hope will result in quarrying coming to an end at the site, but they are up against it; they don't have the resources. Many of the communities are extremely poor communities; they just simply can't raise the funds to fight this kind of case or to gather all the research to prove what they know is happening around them. And also, we do have the future generations Act in Wales, yet that's not reflected in the planning processes at the moment. And if you consider local voice, RCT council did oppose this, they agreed with the residents, but they still lost. So, that did not work. So, I would urge us to be able to come together, because communities like Glyncoch, like all of those referenced, are suffering. They're fed up of not being listened to.

And if I can end with Hadley, aged 6, from Glyncoch—we have residents' impact comments. She has said, 'I miss the mountain being green and open. The blasts are loud and scary, and there's always so much dust.' How is she going to be able to influence policies at the moment? She knows what's happening, but we can't prove it, because we don't have the resources. We need to change the planning system; communities need to have their voice. So, I urge Government to reconsider their current position, reflect the future generations Act, listen to all the contributions today. I accept there could be changes, amendments, to the legislation, but we need something to change, because our communities are powerless and voiceless. They need change, and it simply isn't working as it is.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Back in 2021, almost all members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee included the additional learning needs reforms and the Curriculum for Wales amongst our scrutiny priorities. The challenge we faced was that both of these reforms are being rolled out over a number of years. A traditional inquiry would not have told the full story. No matter when we timed it, it would have been both too early or too late, too detailed or not detailed enough. So, we embarked on a Senedd-long investigation, with an open call for evidence and regular scrutiny check-ins. These check-ins have allowed us to follow the story of the implementation of these critical reforms. 

Today, we are debating our interim report. The purpose of this report is to share our findings to date, to shape how these reforms are implemented during the final stretch of the sixth Senedd. However you look at it, this has a been a comprehensive inquiry, even at the interim stage. At the time of our report's publication, we had visited nine schools, received 57 consultation responses, spoken to the families of children with additional leaning needs, written to numerous education and health bodies, taken evidence from the president of the Education Tribunal for Wales, and held three ministerial scrutiny sessions.

What are the Welsh Government's stated aims for these reforms? On ALN, the Welsh Government aimed to create a single system for children with additional needs by giving a statutory individual development plan—an IDP—to every learner with ALN. It aimed to promote collaboration between the NHS and local government, and it aimed to reduce disagreement and help resolve disputes. The Curriculum for Wales, meanwhile, moves schools away from the heavily prescribed approach of the old national curriculum. It places more emphasis on the skills needed for adult life, and to teach what matters by giving schools flexibility to design a curriculum that is right for their learners. 

So, what have we found? To be blunt, the ALN reforms are not going as planned. The reforms have led to a 44 per cent reduction in the numbers of learners recorded as having special educational needs or ALN. This reduction appears to be driven by a decrease in the number of pupils identified as having low to moderate SEN or ALN. At no point during the passing of the ALN Bill did the Welsh Government anticipate that the reforms would almost halve the numbers of children identified as having additional needs. In fact, the Welsh Government repeatedly asserted that it would have no impact on the total numbers of children identified as having ALN or SEN.

Why is this happening? One argument is that SEN was previously over-reported. We find this hard to believe. With all the work and resourcing that comes with adding children to the SEN registers, why would schools make that decision if children didn't have SEN? We also heard that so-called 'universal provision'—the provision that is routinely available to any child in school—is so much more inclusive these days that some children with learning difficulties or disabilities don't need additional learning provision. We find this hard to believe too. Our parallel report into disabled access to childcare and education is enough of an explanation why, which we will be debating separately in the coming weeks.

The reason that we find most convincing is that schools and local authorities do not have the resources to give an IDP to every child who had SEN under the old system. This resourcing shortage is the result of years of systematic underfunding of SEN and ALN provision in schools, compounded by the extra demands placed on schools by the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 and code.

The next stated aim of the ALN reforms was to improve collaboration between schools and the NHS. And they have, to an extent. Schools are generally positive about the new designated education clinical lead officer role—the DECLO—that all health boards are required to have in place under the Act. But schools also report that they do not get enough support from DECLOs and health bodies, which are struggling to meet schools’ expectations. When we published our report, there were only four DECLOs in post across the seven health boards, with reports of DECLOs being shared across health boards. We found this remarkable, given the aims of the reforms and schools’ pleas for extra DECLO capacity.

The third aim was to reduce disagreement and help resolve disputes. Although the total number of appeals registered with the tribunal has dropped slightly, the number of claims of disability discrimination has actually risen. And worryingly, the president of the Education Tribunal for Wales has told us that some local authorities’ ALN policies do not comply with the law. This is hardly the right way to reduce disagreement.

We believe that the Cabinet Secretary recognises our concerns. We welcome her commitment to carry out a review of the ALN Act and code. Our report recommended that, as part of the review, the Cabinet Secretary explores what constitutes 'universal provision'. We asked her to work with partners to pin down to what extent routine teaching across mainstream schools should meet the learning needs of children with ALN. We also called for her to consider as part of the review how mainstream schools are funded, and whether funding constraints are, as we suspect, a driver for the reduction in children identified as having ALN.

We are pleased that the Cabinet Secretary accepted, or accepted in part, these recommendations, and we look forward to the outcomes of that valuable piece of work. We are less pleased with the response we received to our recommendation about increasing DECLO capacity. We called for each health board to appoint its own dedicated member of staff to fulfil the DECLO role. The Welsh Government accepted it, arguing that this is already happening. But if there are four DECLOs in post across seven heath boards, this isn't happening.

This inquiry has also considered the Curriculum for Wales. Our scrutiny has mainly focused on the ALN system, mainly because the benefits or otherwise of the new curriculum will take longer to become clear. But we are now at a stage where some themes are emerging.

Overall, schools are positive about the Curriculum for Wales. We heard some wonderful stories about how schools are adapting their curricula to best suit their learners and communities. Teachers value the freedom the new curriculum affords them.

But we also heard some concerns about the potential impact of the new curriculum on school standards. Some felt that the flexibility that schools now have will undermine consistency and outcomes for children. Others argued that schools' varied curricula will poorly prepare students for the new made-in-Wales GCSEs. The results of the 2022 PISA tests didn't provide reassurance to these concerns. The children sitting those tests were not taught under the new curriculum, but some, such as academic Luke Sibieta, argued that declines in school standards have followed every country that has adopted curricula like the Curriculum for Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, these are complex, technical issues, but they have enormous consequences for the lives of children and young people across Wales. So, I would appreciate your response to these questions in particular. Are you concerned about the 44 per cent reduction in children identified as having ALN or SEN? Do you really believe that fewer children have ALN now, or that whole-class teaching is that much more inclusive than it was just a few years ago? Can you clarify whether there are now seven full-time DECLOs in post across Wales—one for each health board—or was this recommendation actually rejected? If so, then why? On the Curriculum for Wales, can you reassure us today that schools teaching under the new curriculum will adequately prepare young people for their key stage 4 examinations, and that we will not see a decline in learners’ standards as a result of the flexibility afforded to schools? I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions today and the Cabinet Secretary’s response.

Can I thank the committee, which I've just joined, but I know that the majority of the report was done before I joined, by colleagues such as Laura Anne Jones and others? Can I start by saying how nice it is to be on the committee and to have caught the tail end of this? I know that Buffy and I visited a school in Port Talbot to find out more about some of the issues that they were facing, which was really, really insightful, so I'm grateful to Sandfields Primary School for hosting us that day as well. 

The report, as Buffy has already alluded to, focuses on two key elements of the educational reforms: the curriculum and ALN. If I start with the curriculum, I think Buffy's right to say that it is clear that we are very early on in this process with the curriculum, but there was a quote in the report that I just wanted to acknowledge, which said that there is 

'an underlying tension between the inherent flexibility and creativity of the Curriculum for Wales, and the need for both educational consistency...and the development of a standard set of qualifications'.

And I think that rings true in a whole host of ways. I know we've got a Welsh Conservatives' debate later on today about reading, which I would argue would apply to that quote as well, as well as a number of other issues. And look, we sit in a context, I think, in Wales more widely in education, where we have seen some quite poor PISA results. Let's not beat around the bush: these were the worst PISA results ever. We've been the worst at every subject every time that we've been assessed here in Wales. In 2009, Leighton Andrews famously said it was a wake-up call to a complacent system, and 15 years on those results are even worse. So, for all our learners, I worry sometimes that they are not getting the quality standard of education that many pupils and many parents would expect them to get when they enter Welsh schools, and I think the report hits on some of the reasons behind that. 

Moving on to ALN, I welcome some of the reforms that have been made, but what I don't welcome, as the Chair mentioned at the end of her remarks, is the reduction in the number of those recognised as needing additional learning support: a 23.5 per cent reduction in 2020-21 and 18.95 per cent in 2021-22. In 2016-17, there were 92,000 children recognised as having SEN with low to moderate learning difficulties or disabilities. In 2022-23, that's nearly halved. Now, I can't realistically believe that there are fewer young people today with additional learning needs than there were less than a decade ago, so it's clear that there are huge elements of the system that are not working and that causes frustration for parents, for pupils, for teachers and others who care about these young people who are not getting the support they need. 

IDPs are of course crucial to the development of any child with ALN and are legal documents, and that's a welcome change from the old individual education plans, but the IDPs take much longer to develop and, as a result, we see huge increases in staff workloads—we heard about that first-hand—to the point where some parents, some charities are even taking the responsibility to complete them. I think it's absolutely vital that that's something that we sort out, but also to ensure that we support the needs of those with ALN. We can't have a system where those carrying out IDPs are already struggling with that highly intensive workload. Some schools have appointed special educational needs co-ordinators; other schools aren't in the position to do that, and you find teachers having to do that in tandem with other work and other responsibilities. 

What we need is an efficient system—and the report calls for it—one where the criteria is much clearer,

where the criteria is much clearer, the right help is offered in the right areas, and those with ALN, whether they have that or not, at the moment under this new system, have the support that they require. But, however we look at this, going forward, it's clear that too many of our learners in Wales are being left behind. That is something that the Welsh Government need to urgently address. This could not have been the intention of a number of the reforms pursued by the Welsh Labour Government, and I think the report makes quite clear the reasons why there are some clear asks in there. Hopefully, we will hear from the Cabinet Secretary some clear actions as to the action she will take to sort out some of these long-standing issues in our education system. Diolch yn fawr.

I've actually informed the Chief Whip that I wish to stand down from the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm awaiting my name to be taken off. I wanted to say that at the outset, but I was part of this committee through part of this discussion that led to this report. I also want to declare an interest: I am the father of a very disabled daughter who benefits from the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. She has profound needs, and has an individual development plan, and I have nothing but praise for the way that she has been looked after in this system. This system has worked for her.

I also want to praise the Cabinet Secretary, because as a parent of that child, the Cabinet Secretary has listened to me in ways that previous Cabinet Secretaries have not. She has been clearly engaged with the mental health aspect of all of these things, and now she's committed to a review, and I think that is well worth the recognition and gratitude of this Chamber, the fact that she's done that, and it's really important that we feed then into that review.

I want to focus on three recommendations: recommendations 3, 4 and 5, and just explore the Welsh Government's response to some of those. Just before I do, there was a sentence that was going to go into the report that Welsh Government policy was failing all the children of Wales: that's categorically and manifestly not the case. Just to say about my child, because she is so very clearly diagnosable—she's non-verbal; she has all the communication difficulties typical of autism—she has that support. The difficulty we've got is with children who are in the grey area of diagnosis who sit just outside the statutory support that's available, and giving them the support is the challenge because their needs are very different and diverse, and often the support for those young people is more complex than for children like my daughter. 

So, to the recommendations. Recommendation 3:

'The Welsh Government should ensure that every health board appoints its own dedicated DECLO',

and the Welsh Government's response says,

'The recommendation is accepted as every Health Board has a designated DECLO'.

Well, as Buffy Williams said in her opening speech, there are four DECLOs and six health boards: it doesn't match up, and we need to know why the Government thinks that's satisfactory when we as a committee feel that it isn't satisfactory.

That leads me on to recommendation 4. I went to Ysgol Gyfun Cymunedol Llangatwg in Neath to visit the team there, and they gave us some really eye-opening stories. One of the problems—. They had a really good ALNCo team; it was almost like and ALNCo department, with an ALNCo leading, a deputy ALNCo, and a teaching assistant acting in those roles as well. It was almost like an ALNCo department, which was so far removed from my school, my old school, Heolddu Comprehensive School, where I'm a governor, where there's one ALNCo dealing with 71 IDPs, facing a massive, massive challenge there. Llangatwg had managed to move some of their COVID funding into that role, but you do question how sustainable those were.

One of the things they told us was the process is cumbersome to link up with health. So, yes, their DECLO was great, but their DECLO wasn't able to resolve their problems because they had to go through the local authority. So, if they wanted to connect a child with the health board, maybe a diagnosis, it had to go first to the local authority, then to the health board, then back from the health board to the local authority, and back to the school. And because of that process, sometimes the responses they got were

responses they got were not the responses they were looking for and, in fact, responses to a different question. So they had to go back through the process again. So, there's a reason why this system isn't working, and it's not just to do with funding—it's also to do with the way the system is structured, and I'd like the Cabinet Secretary to look at that, and consider how that particular issue can be addressed.

And, as I mentioned, the ALN—. Yes.

I'm possibly the only or one of the very few people remaining who sat on the Education & Lifelong Learning Committee from 2005 that produced the reports that eventually led to this legislation. I'm also the parent of what was then a child who had to battle the old system to get the statement, which this replaces. So, I've been there, and taken evidence in the past on this. But, throughout this, do you share the concern I articulated, that without—from the beginning, proactively—the training, engagement and monitoring and evaluation of those who have to implement this, we risk giving the people who got it wrong previously the power to get it even worse as this role, or get this even more wrong as it moves forward?

You've just struck a chord with me there. My daughter was turned down for a statement when she was in mainstream school, on the first occasion, and I find that utterly bizarre. It should not have happened. And I think part of it is that problem—the constant battle that parents feel they're having because of those blocks in the system. Eventually she did get a statement because she was so clearly disabled. But I shouldn’t have had to go through that. So, I think what you're recognising there is what the ALN Act was actually trying to fix. The problem is the comparison with a number of IDPs with school action and school action plus and statements is, as Buffy says, less than it was previously, so there's clearly an issue there that needs to be addressed.

Would you mind if I finished?

Hefin, I'll give you an extra minute and a half, because you took the intervention.

Thank you. With regard to recommendation 5, the Welsh Government should remint the ALNCo task and finish group to undertake further work examining pay, terms and conditions of teaching staff working wholly or partially as deputy or assistant ALNCos. Now, those were the ones I was thinking of in Llangatwg when I tried to get this recommendation into the report, and the Government has rejected it. But I take it from discussions, with both the Minister and the special advisor, that it is a technical rejection in that the task and finish group has already reported, so we're a bit behind time. But I think the recommendation still stands, and we need to get parity of esteem for deputy and assistant ALNCos and create those ALNCo departments. So, it's a good report, we've got a very good Cabinet Secretary, and I look forward to hearing her response.

I wholeheartedly welcome the report and its recommendations on supporting children with ALN in Wales. This ever increasing number of children deserve the very best education that they can have, and it's our moral and legislative duty to ensure that they receive it. I was pleased to have started this work on this report with fellow MSs when I sat on this committee, and may I therefore also start by thanking the committee clerk, our fantastic chairs in Jayne Bryant, but now Buffy Williams, and all the committee staff and MSs for all their hard work on this? And also to thank the chairs, past and present, for both picking up my concerns initially and for running with them.

I think we can all agree that, whilst we all recognised the problem initially when I suggested the review into equality of access into childcare and education, none of us realised just how many barriers there are for children and young people when trying to get the very best education possible, an education that most of us, I believe, took for granted, and just how long children are waiting to be identified and get the right help.

That report and this, regarding the ALN reforms, Bills and curriculm, are intrinsically linked, and we found the new ANL reforms have caused a few problems that I don't think any of us bargained for when voting through these much-needed reforms into ALN. Although they have been very beneficial for many, like yourself, for the Member of Caerphilly and his family. The major problem that the committee have recognised is the new reforms, perhaps, aren't clear enough and have, unfortunately, resulted in the legislation being interpreted 22 different ways by 22 different local authorities. The result of this being an inequality of provision and services right across the length and breadth of Wales, and I'm sure none of us want to see a postcode lottery when it comes to provision, care or identification of children and young people.

But the Welsh Government must firstly recognise that this is the case. And secondly, ensure that we must do something about it, and seek to recitify this situation urgently. Another concern is that children, 

Another concern is that children, as has already been mentioned, having low-to-moderate forms of ALN are falling beneath the radar. They are not getting the support that they need, identifiable in the drastic drop in numbers being identified as ALN. I think that's what those figures that we were talking about earlier represent. I have a deep respect for the dedication and strength of parents with ALN, especially rare or severe forms, who are not getting the support that they need. I am in awe of those parents, trying to rise to the challenges they face, day in and day out, to ensure their children get the support that they need. But it was abundantly clear from the evidence that we gathered that support to them needs to be far better, far clearer, and more accessible, and schools need to be better equipped. Many felt very isolated and helpless that they didn't know how to get the support that their children needed, and it's quite heartbreaking. I'm thinking of even friends with children with ALN, who have been waiting for years to try and get their child identified, and that child has progressively got worse and progressively fallen behind in their class, which has led to bullying and all sorts of other extra problems that didn't need to happen.

The introduction of the ALN reform Bill was a much needed step in the right direction. It was designed to bring consistency and fairness, ensuring that children with ALN get that support that they require, no matter where they live. But this inconsistency is causing confusion and frustration for parents, carers and even the schools themselves, as nobody is sure what is actually the right thing to do. There are children sitting on waiting lists, as I've said, for extraordinarily long waiting times, waiting to be identified and assessed, and there are some falling under the radar, whilst others on the cusp of having more obvious difficulties are suffering as they wait and falling behind their peers. I have to agree with the Members for Caerphilly and north Wales on that.

These delays are unacceptable, and we need to take urgent action to address this backlog as a matter of urgency. If we are to deliver the best education for every child, we must ensure that funding reaches the schools to be then directed where it's needed most by those that know, within the school, how best it can be used. I fully support the recommendations in this report, and I believe they will help begin to tackle these issues. The Government need to take them seriously and act with haste, as children are suffering unnecessarily across Wales right now. We need to take a more standardised approach across local authorities, have quicker assessment processes, and a commitment to ensuring schools are adequately funded to provide the necessary support for children with ALN. Let's not forget that these children deserve the very best education, and it is our responsibility to ensure they get it. I urge the Government to act swiftly to implement the changes recognised in this report, and provide the necessary funding and guidance that is so clearly needed. It is time children with ALN get the support they need. The aim that no child should be left behind in Wales cannot be met unless this Welsh Government make a serious financial commitment to all children with all forms of ALN. Thank you.

I'd like to start by thanking the Chair for bringing forward this debate and all Members on the Children, Young People and Education Committee for all their hard work on this important topic. The Petitions Committee has been considering a number of petitions relating to additional learning needs provision. It is an important issue for people in all parts of Wales, reflected in the variety and the popularity of the petitions we have received.

On Monday, we considered updates on five petitions relating to ALN, including the latest response from Welsh Government on petition 1392 on reform of the 'Additional Learning Needs Code for Wales 2021'. That petition was debated in this Chamber back in May. We noted that, in the Cabinet Secretary for Education's latest correspondence with us, she has thanked the ALN Reform Wales group and Members for their support and commitment to collaborate with Welsh Government officials to ensure that all of the ambitions of ALN are realised. We note that some of the petitioners are involved with the ALN Reform Wales group and welcome that engagement in this important policy area. The committee has fed all of the petitioners' views and comments on ALN provision to the CYPE Committee for consideration in its comprehensive work on ALN reform and its wider inquiry into access to education and childcare for disabled people.

On Monday, the Petitions Committee agreed to close the five ALN petitions, but in doing so we did note the determination of the Cabinet Secretary to ensure that children receive the support they need, and the high priority that CYPE Committee has given, and continues to give, to scrutinising these issues. Both are essential if we are to ensure that no child misses out on their right to education. Diolch.  

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m grateful to the Children, Young People, and Education Committee for their diligent work in monitoring the implementation of our education reforms throughout this Senedd term. This report demonstrates the committee’s extensive engagement, critical scrutiny and challenge of our reforms in Wales, all of which I welcome. Can I also add my thanks to the Petitions Committee for the extensive work they have done on ALN reform as well?

This report arrived at a significant milestone as we enter the final year of transitioning to the ALN needs system. This year will be the last for the special educational needs SEN system, which we are replacing after years of careful planning and collaboration. Over the past three years, our dedicated partners have worked tirelessly to establish robust support systems for learners with ALN and to develop individual development plans. While we have seen outstanding examples of local authorities and schools supporting children and young people with ALN, it is clear to me that that support is not yet consistent across Wales. I want to ensure that every learner receives the support they need. The report by the committee includes eight recommendations, and seven of those are in relation to ALN. Therefore, I’ll focus on the ALN recommendations today.

As part of our work in considering the recommendations from the committee, we’ve also listened to the views of the education and health sectors, which have helped shaped our response. I’ve been very open in my evidence to the committee on where the challenges lie and the issues raised by the committee in this report align with Welsh Government’s own efforts to monitor the implementation of the ALN reforms, and we are already actively undertaking work to address those concerns and challenges.

In relation to reviewing the ALN Act and code, I have listened to the feedback and recognise that some parts of the legislation are complex and unclear. So, we are already examining the legislative framework in detail along with our delivery partners to clarify and make the framework more accessible, identify practical challenges, and next steps to ensure consistent delivery.

Alongside this, we’re working with local authorities, schools and other settings to ensure that roles, responsibilities and processes are consistently applied across Wales. We’re also actively working together with parents to review what information and signposting is available for parents, children and young people to improve clear and consistent communication. We’ve already strengthened monitoring and support for implementation so that we can understand delivery challenges and improve consistency. This includes termly meetings with local authorities, as well as developing new national datasets and data collection mechanisms in education, local authorities and health, and I have agreed a comprehensive work plan with officials to address the concerns that have been raised with me.

Now, improving multi-agency collaboration between health and education is a key priority. Long-standing challenges in accessing health services for all learners are being taken forward by Designated Education Clinical Lead Officers in health boards. I’m sympathetic to what the committee has said about the number of DECLOs. The health boards have met the requirement in the ALN Act by having a designated DECLO each, but I am looking to discuss with health boards how that is working in practice, where those health boards are sharing a DECLO in Wales. We also have an ALN multi-agency collaborative group which is working to improve collaboration between health, social care, and education services, providing clarity on NHS additional learning provision and developing key performance indicators to monitor statutory timelines and highlight effective practices. We are transitioning to the ALN system with over 20,000 children and young people now having statutory individual development plans, developed through person-centred planning, but we are continuously reviewing

but we are continuously reviewing ALN implementation to learn and to address challenges. Estyn's second thematic review of the ALN reforms will report this winter, and a comprehensive evaluation programme is under way.

ALN is a national education priority. Since 2020, we've invested over £107 million in revenue support to support ALN implementation, and more than £170 million in capital investment to improve facilities for learners with additional learning needs. The sustainable communities for learning programme will invest over £750 million in the next nine years to continue enhancing and expanding existing facilities and creating new specialist provisions.

As the committee has highlighted in the report, much of the funding for ALN is distributed via the rate support grant to local government, and my officials are currently conducting a review of local authority mainstream school funding formally across Wales. That review will identify the total funding that each local authority delegates to schools to meet the needs of pupils with ALN and the different distribution methods used.

I am particularly pleased that we've been able to take forward the recommendations of the independent Welsh pay review body relating to ALNCO pay, including providing an extra £5 million to invest in our ALNCO workforce. I know how hard ALNCOs work day in, day out.

To build on the work to date, and to address challenges, it is crucial that we continue to listen to families. We are actively working with parent groups and the third sector to improve and provide clear and consistent communication, and, as I said, to review what information and signposting is available to families. An inclusive education system is one where learners' needs are listened to, responded to, and all learners are supported to participate fully in education with a whole-school approach taken to meeting their needs.

Together, the reforms to Curriculum for Wales and the additional learning needs system are acting as a catalyst for change. I've seen this in action in my many visits to schools and have been inspired by the way school leaders and teachers are embracing our reforms. The Curriculum for Wales is designed to break down barriers for all learners, giving teachers more flexibility and a purposeful curriculum to best meet the individual needs of each child.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we are implementing a systemic and cultural change to reform the education system and to improve practice to accurately identify and support the needs of all learners and ensure that those with additional learning needs receive the support they deserve. I recognise that this is a significant reform programme for the sector, having previously outlined in my summer statement how this connects with our curriculum reform programme. I recognise that we have more to do, and I am determined that meeting the needs of learners with ALN remains at the heart of our education reforms. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response today and Members who have contributed. Tom referred to workload for staff, and that's something that we heard as a committee time and time again from schools. Cefin, the committee, I'm sure, would agree that children and young people should not suffer in any way through their education journey. Hefin always speaks passionately about ALN and his personal journey and reminded us about the grey areas of ALN. Children and young people who fall in that area deserve a voice, and I'm sure the committee would agree. Laura, we agree, children and young people deserve the best education they can possibly get with consistency and fairness. And Heledd spoke about lived experience, and the stories we heard, I agree it's difficult not to be upset and feel so passionately for parents and children who are struggling to get that all-important support they need. As Carolyn has said, there has been number of petitions for consideration. This is a sign that there are challenges with the implementation of the new ALN Act, it's a clear sign.

I know that these reforms, particularly the ALN reforms,

I know that these reforms, particularly the ALN reforms, feature heavily in concerns raised by constituents to Members across the Senedd. When we think about just how much the SEN and ALN landscape has changed, that shouldn’t surprise us. The number of learners identified as having SEN or ALN has fallen by 44 per cent in just four years. Education should be as inclusive as possible. And if this means that fewer children need additional provision, because whole-class teaching meets the needs of some learners with ALN, that can only be a positive thing. But if we are honest, we must recognise that we are not there yet, despite the hard work and professionalism of teaching staff across the country. We must recognise that the new system has resulted in a monumental shift in our national response to ALN. We must listen to the parents who are worried that their children are not receiving the support that they need as a result. And we must listen to the teachers in schools who tell us that they're stuck making impossible decsions between staffing and resource.

I would like to thank the many school staff across Wales who supported us with school visits, and the organisations that submitted written or oral evidence. I would also like to thank the parents and young people who fed into our work for sharing their experiences. And I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her predecessor for their constructive engagement with us over the course of this inquiry. I believe that they share our commitment to ensuring that both the ALN reforms and the Curriculum for Wales meet the needs of our learners now and in the years to come. We will be continuing our scrutiny work throughout this Senedd to make sure that they do just that. Diolch yn fawr

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar.

This debate today is a matter of huge importance, which cuts to the very soul of our Welsh countryside—the sale of our council-owned farms. These farms are not just pieces of land, they're the lifeblood of our rural communities. For generations, they have provided opportunities for our young farmers, opportunities to produce food and support the communities in rural areas. But now, these farms are being sold off at an alarming rate. And the consequences can be devastating, not just for farming, but the way of life in our rural countryside.

Council-owned farms offer more than just a livelihood. They provide young people with a chance, a chance to get on that farming ladder. They offer affordable tenancies to those who might be locked out of the agricultural sector. They're a stepping stone for young people with ambition, with drive to establish themselves in farming. Without them, we risk shutting the door on the next generation of Welsh farmers.

The figures tell us how important these farms are. As of March in 2023, there are a total of 972 council-owned farms across Wales, and that covers 21,000 hectares of land. That's a huge proportion of our farms across Wales. These farms and the families who work them are the backbone of rural communities. They work hard for what they've got. These farms support jobs, local businesses and our wider economy. They help preserve traditional farming practices. They produce food and they protect the natural beauty of our landscape, which has been farmed over generations. If we continue to sell them off, we're playing with fire. We are risking our food security at a time when it's more important to grow what we eat locally. And let's be very clear, Llywydd, when these farms are gone, they are gone for good. We cannot and must not allow this to happen.

This is why this motion we're debating today is so critical. We're calling on the Welsh Government to impose a moratorium on the sale of council-owned farms. We need to pause. We need to take a breath and fully assess the long-term impacts of these sales. It's about giving ourselves time to develop a proper, sustainable strategy for the future of farming in Wales on our council farm estate across Wales.

But Llywydd, we're already seeing worrying developments.

worrying developments. In Powys, the Liberal Democrats have already started selling off council-owned farms to the highest bidder in my colleague Russell George’s constituency. They say that they have set up a working group to look into the future of these farms, but let’s be honest: they won’t come clean about their real intentions.

There has been no transparency, no clear answers, just uncertainty and doubt. Our farming community and council farm tenants deserve better than this. They deserve to know what is coming, and they deserve to be part of the conversation about their futures.

But let’s not also forget that the Welsh Government also owns farms. They own one of the most famous farms across the whole of Wales—Gilestone Farm. I would implore the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that that farm produces agricultural products, that it produces food, and that it supports the next generation of farmers.

But let us not forget: many of these county farms are located in Welsh-speaking communities. Selling them off risks not only our agricultural future, but the survival of the Welsh language, as a living, everyday language in these areas. By protecting these farms, we are also protecting our language, our history and our cultural identity.

So, I urge this Welsh Government to act with urgency. We cannot sit back and watch as our council farms disappear one by one. It’s time for action. It’s time to secure a sustainable future for Welsh farming. It’s time to stand up for our rural communities, and it is time to safeguard our food security, protect our environment and preserve our Welsh way of life. Llywydd, I call on every Member of this Senedd to support this motion today, to ensure that the next generation of farmers across our country has a bright and prosperous future, and secures our county farm estate for years to come. Diolch.

Diolch, Lywydd. We'll be supporting the motion today because council-owned farms are, indeed, a vital part of the agricultural landscape for many of the reasons that have already been outlined. It’s regrettable that it took about 180 seconds for it to become a bit of a party political football, because I think that we all need to hold our hands up as political parties.

The biggest irony, maybe, is that much of this is being driven as a result of Conservative-led austerity, which has put—[Interruption.] No, no, no. That’s the irony of the situation, but I will desist from making that point. Look, they have been left with no other option, many of these councils—[Interruption.]  I support the motion. I support the motion.

The moratorium, of course, as you said, is a pause, isn’t it? It’s not an outright ban. It’s a pause. And it’s a pause, as far as I’m concerned, for us to be able to do something that I called for in this Chamber in 2016. I have still got the press release, actually. I won’t read it out. It's to call for a national summit to discuss the future of our council farms. We need that collaborative approach.

Of course, the Government are best placed to bring those stakeholders around the table. Local authorities, yes, but other partners as well: farming unions, the young farmers’ clubs, the Tenant Farmers Association, agricultural colleges also. Let’s bring them all together, so that we can start crafting a strategy to protect our council farms.

Let’s consider more creative use of the opportunities when they arise. I am particularly inspired by the work that the National Trust did with the young farmers’ clubs in Wales, to offer bursaries for people who wanted to have an opportunity to farm. They offered Llyndy Isaf in Snowdonia as a venue for that to happen.

So, I will reiterate my call for the Government to grasp that nettle, instead of—as the amendment does, somewhat—sort of shrug your shoulders and say, ‘Well, it’s a matter for councils.’ That isn’t good enough. We mustn’t just watch a valuable piece of the rural ecosystem being sold off to the highest bidder.  

Ultimately, yes, the responsibility rests with local authorities, but the Government can’t wash its hands of the problem. These farms are a national asset, and there’s a pressing need for leadership and strategic thinking from the Government to make sure that that happens.

The starting point, in my view, needs to be: let’s get everybody around the table, let’s allow that creative thinking to happen, and let’s have a national summit

and let's have a national summit to discuss the future of our council farms.

I'm very pleased to take part in this debate, and I think, with food security so high on the agenda in this uncertain world beset by conflict and turbulent and unpredictable weather, we need to follow the just-in-case mantra of Professor Tim Lang, who's speaking on securing sustainable and resilient food systems at the NFU conference in November. Like Welsh Government, local authorities need to plan for disruption to just-in-time supply lines, whether from mainland Europe, or anywhere else. That particularly applies to potential disruption to basic food supplies. If pineapples or avocados don't arrive from Africa or Latin America, it may disappoint those who have acquired a taste for such treats, but it won't disrupt the business of feeding our children in school, or, indeed, for delivering meals on wheels.

I'm surprised that six of the 22 local authorities have already disposed of their county farms, but I'm pleased to see that the predominantly urban county of Cardiff still has 15.5 hectares, which is roughly the equivalent of just over 38 acres. Some of you may think that, well, 38 acres, what can you do with that? It's so insignificant, it's not worth bothering with. Well, they're wrong. In the economy committee today, we learnt from Edward Morgan of Castell Howell than 10 tonnes of carrots grown on 1 acre of land in Ceredigion are improving the school meals of pupils in Bridgend. We need a lot more carrots and other veg grown in Wales, so that all school meals can be made mainly with fresh local ingredients, rather than relying on them arriving from mainland Europe or further afield. We've just got a lot more work to do to strengthen our foundational economy and become less reliant on imported basic food, and seeing the profits going abroad, rather than staying in Wales. 

We know we're not short on meat and sea fish, but we're not producing enough of it in our school meals. We are woefully short of fruit and veg, where we only grow a tiny proportion for the needs of the Welsh population, and in terms of our need to clean up the diets of our population, that is a strategic issue. I find slightly difficult to understand why the Welsh Government is planning to propose that we just leave this to local authorities, so I'm looking forward to hearing what Huw Irranca-Davies has to say on this. 

In my view, county farms play a strategic role in enabling new entrants into farming, and for being demonstration projects for other farmers who could be incentivised to diversity from monoculture products that make them so vulnerable to market prices, as well as not being to supply the needs of their local communities.

I just finally want to mention the case of Bremenda Isaf, a 100 acre lowland farm in the Tywi valley in Carmarthenshire, which is growing high-quality and affordable fruit and veg for the public plate in schools, care homes and cafes. What's not to like about that? And why is this something that the Government doesn't feel is something—? We need to strategically try and safeguard our county farms, because buying them back on the open market is going to be much more expensive.

I, of course, represent a constituency where the farming community sector is significant, and I proudly wear my Montgomery young farmers' club tie today. There are over 600 members of Montgomery young farmers, and what a fantastic organisation it is for young people, and run by young people. Our debate, of course, today is not about the YFC movement, it's about recognising the valuable contribution that council-owned farms play in supporting food production and enabling young entrants into farming. Some members of the YFC will be part of farming families, are farmers themselves; others will not be and not perhaps interested in a career in farming. And some will be part of a YFC movement and not part of a farming family, but they would really like a career in farming. Council farm estates provide a really valuable means of securing a foothold into the industry for many young farmers and new entrants to the sector, and if the council farm network were not in place, then this avenue for embarking 

then this avenue for embarking on a career in farming would be shut off to so many people, meaning there would be fewer farmers producing food and looking after the countryside, as others have talked about.

Now the story, of course, of local farm estates has been one of slow decline in holdings to let, as local authorities have sold off their key assets to meet short-term financial challenges. As Jenny Rathbone pointed out, there are six of Wales's 22 local authorities no longer having their own farm estate to let, according to the NFU briefing, which obviously Jenny has read as well. And I, like the NFU as well, believe that this represents a very sad state of affairs. In my own local authority area Powys County Council is fortunate, I think, to have a really strong farm estate. As a county councillor for nine years, the elected members were always absolutely adamant: do not sell our assets. Often, when council officers brought forward those proposals they were shut down by the elected members. That's not the case now with the current administration, as they're considering selling off the assets. Some have already been sold.

I know my own local authority area, Powys County Council, has a target set to receive £10 million in capital receipts each year. Where are these assets, of course? Farm estates. So farm estates are a really valuable asset, they should be seen as that, offering a potential ongoing revenue stream for local authorities and providing a really crucial first step into the industry for so many. That's why, because we as Welsh Conservatives have brought forward our motion today, I was particularly disappointed that point 2 of our motion was deleted today. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary can allude to why that was the case. Welsh Government should be supporting our motion and supporting the future of farming in Wales.

I was on an agricultural panel when I was a county councillor, and we used to interview new tenants for council farms and also look at any farms that may come up for disposal. Some of the farms we visited needed investment, and I was surprised that they were outside of the HRA, which was the housing revenue account, and did not have to be kept up to Welsh housing quality standards. Rent from the social housing was kept separate from the corporate pot and reused for improvements and investment into housing stock, but that did not happen with money from the council farms.

Some of the tenants we met spoke of how the farms needed updating and investment. When farm tenancies came up for renewal we were presented with a strategic report as why some may be sold and some kept. It depended on where they were, how big they were et cetera. The council needed capital funds to invest in new council housing, in care facilities—Flintshire still has its own care facilities—in maintenance of roads and other infrastructure. Sometimes it was to match-fund grants from Welsh Government and other sources. It became more and more important as austerity and cuts to funding kicked in.

So we were told, as I said earlier, that sometimes the farms were too small to be farmed profitably. They were too little. As you know, farms need to have grown to be more economically viable. We were told they were too small.

Will you take an intervention? I'm just really interested to know, at the time when you were a councillor, whether you had any discussion about the importance of ensuring that you were going to be able to secure the supply lines that you needed to feed your local population, and therefore county farms had a strategic role in that regard? 

At the time, going back a few years, that wasn't discussed as part of it. It was strategically whether we could keep them, and they could be farmed profitably, and useful to the farming community, or whether they'd be better and more profitable for the council to have that money. Whether they'd be valuable for redevelopment for housing, because we were short of social housing—that land.

We would often say that the council could only sell its silver once. The Tenant Farmers Association echoed this, saying value from the local authority estate needs to be harvested rather than mined.

As well as financial gain from smallholding estates, there are wider benefits in relation to countryside and environmental

and environmental issues—food has been mentioned; access to the countryside, learning outside the classroom, planning policies, greenbelt management and assisting in the management of flood risk, which is another consideration. Without the retention of the land bank, these benefits will be lost, but we can't escape the reality that local authorities are under a huge amount of financial pressure after years of harsh budget cuts, and are being forced to make extremely tough calls over the next six months, so that is part of the consideration. Thank you.  

Of course, council-owned farms are vital for food production and education our future generations. I want to put on record my thanks to all farmers in Wales, but our tenanted farms and our council-owned farms, they've faced a lot of difficulties over the last few months, especially with the nitrate vulnerable zones issues and things like that. They help in terms of food security, as Jenny Rathbone and others have pointed out, and I can tell you, I feel quite confident to say that if the late Brynle Williams was here today he'd be thumping this desk by saying 'You cannot'. Look, we know that Gordon Brown sold off the family silver. It would be a travesty to allow the Welsh Labour Government to support local authorities in selling off the family Welsh gold. Diolch.  

Now, every year as part of our statutory duty under the Agriculture Act 1970, Welsh Ministers report on the Welsh Government's activities and the activities of local authorities in relation to smallholdings in Wales. This report provides statistical information on the area and the number of smallholdings held by local authority, and the latest published report, 2022-23, showed that Welsh local authorities hold 21,338 hectares of land for smallholding purposes, and that's divided into 972 smallholdings. And of those 972 holdings, there were 959 tenancies.  

Now, just to make clear, because some of the points being made here are passionate but slightly misunderstand where the legislation is, the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023 simply does not confer the powers on Welsh Ministers for control over local authorities to sell land—it doesn't exist. The sale of land and decisions about how they approach it is for local authorities, and I heard the objections to selling off any land. I also heard from our colleague here why sometimes, particularly over recent difficult years, local authorities have been in that predicament where they've had to make those local determinations on it, which is within their power to do, and they have to justify that to local stakeholders, to local farmers, but also to the wider taxpayers within their areas as well when justifying on different services. [Interruption.] Indeed, I will give way. 

I'm grateful to the Minister for taking the intervention. The numbers you just gave—900-odd holdings, 21,000 hectares is still a significant estate across the whole of Wales, in fairness. But as someone who comes from the Vale of Glamorgan, back in 1997 the then Vale of Glamorgan council sold its entire smallholding estate off—it was 2,500 acres at the time. If you go to county hall now and ask where that money's gone, no-one can point to a tangible benefit of where that money's gone—it just went into day-to-day running of the council. Yet, a significant crown jewel of the local authority was sold in one go and if the Member for the Vale of Glamorgan was here, she'd remember the council leader at the time, Councillor Stringer—she'd most probably break out in a cold sweat at his name, she would—but that's losing—. 

This is an intervention and this is a 30-minute debate. 

My point being is that you're losing the crown jewels of these local authorities, and the Government does have a role to play in safeguarding that, along with local authorities. 

We do not have a statutory basis to intervene in the sell-off of land, so the call for a moratorium is misplaced and doesn't understand actually where the legislation is. And can I just say to the gentleman and to his party as well, who often speak very, very strongly for local decision making, 

for local decision making, this is absolutely the illustration of where people who take those decisions and have to balance the local interest very carefully then also have to justify those decisions as well. The sale of land and decisions about how they approach that is for local authorities. Furthermore, the management of these farms as well—and I'll turn to that in a moment—is ultimately a matter for the local authorities in Wales.

It is, however, very important that we support all of our farmers in Wales, and that's why, indeed, there are things within our gift, and that includes the design of the SFS scheme, so that we can make it eligible to all farmers, including those farmers who farm local authority farms. And, in response to the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report in September of this year, I put on record once again my commitment to delivering a scheme that was accessible to all farmers and types of farming, and to help farmers for the economic and the environmental and the social opportunities as well. So, as we finalise the scheme details with stakeholders, we are indeed considering tenant farmers, and I said in my preamble, the extent to which tenant farmers are part of council-owned farms—how tenant farmers are represented against each element of scheme design, to ensure the tenants can access the SFS. And to further—[Interruption.] James, happy to give way.

A lot of these tenancies are not being renewed, and you say you want to make a scheme accessible for tenant farmers, but if tenant farmers don't know what their future is, because local authorities are going to sell them, why would anybody go into a scheme and commit their land or do capital investment when they don't know what's going to happen to them in the future?

Well, let me go a little bit further, James, to help you with some of the schemes that we are running and that are highly successful already. So, to further help new entrants into farming as part of the Farming Connect offer, Welsh Government included a requirement to develop a joint opportunities platform called 'Start to Farm', which was at the Royal Welsh, and I think some Members opposite will have attended it and spoken to farmers who've been through that, which follows on from the previous successful 'Venture' programme at this year's Royal Welsh. I spoke to some of those people who've been through this, hearing how, with the support of Farming Connect, they'd been able to establish joint ventures, and new entrants fulfilling long-held dreams of becoming farmers, with Welsh Government support, and providers, fifth-generation farmers, wanting to take a step back from the business but wanting to secure its future by bringing in those new entrants. So, we are very committed to providing the support to empower the next generation of farmers with the skills to run profitable businesses and adapt to future challenges. This supports the wider economy as well, from tourism, which relies on the natural environment, to the Welsh language, and allows our rural communities to thrive.

Now, in relation to the number of local authority-owned farms, it's important that we do respect local authority's ability to develop their own priorities, as has been pointed out by a Member speaking today, to develop their own priorities and how they manage their assets for which they are responsible on behalf of the communities they represent. And there are some excellent examples, Jenny, I've got to say, on your point of how this has done in Wales. Sarn Farm in Powys, the Food 1200 project, with Powys County Council being a key partner, gives opportunities for individuals to start their own agro-ecological fruit and veg enterprise, on county-owned land, with an initial five-year tenancy and the potential for a long-term lease. Or Bremenda Isaf farm in Carmarthenshire supplying Ysgol Bro Dinefwr with fresh local benefits. [Interruption.] Oh, crikey. Am I okay? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I really appreciate that, and it's good to hear reference to the farm of the new Plaid Cymru Member of Parliament for Caerfyrddin, but I just want to ask—

I'm ecumenical in my press.

I wanted to ask about my suggestion of a national summit. Clearly, if you're not happy in imposing, as you portray it, a certain direction to councils, surely there's a role for Government to bring all stakeholders together, to try and come up with a more creative way forward.

Well, let us think whether there is a will amongst local authorities, some of whom are significant landowners still, to see whether there's a will from them to come together, because we can do this on a voluntary basis. It doesn't require—. It certainly doesn't require me with my size-10 boots to tell local authorities to do it. If you and the local authorities throughout the land want to come together and talk about how they can better deal with this issue of council-owned farms, it can be done. It doesn't always require a Welsh Government Minister to step in there and look as if I hold the whip hand on this. It can be done.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's my pleasure to respond to this debate on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, knowing how important tenant farmers are and knowing how important council farmers are from my time as a councillor on Pembrokeshire County Council.

James Evans, in opening the debate, painted the current picture of why council farms are so very important. Young farmers, but not just young farmers, new entrants—they could be in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s—into agriculture: let's get skilled people into an industry that's incredibly rewarding, and council farms are an opportunity to do that, a chance to have affordable tenancies to get their foot on the tenancy and agricultural ladder. These farmers are very much the backbone of our local economy, and we need a sustainable strategy, James outlined, on these, and outlined that this is a moratorium, not an outright ban. As Llyr then mentioned in his point on this, this isn't an outright ban; this is Welsh Government giving direction to local authorities, which I think is wholly within the guise of the Welsh Government. They give many a direction on a number of other issues that Welsh Government can control.

Samuel Kurtz, are you willing to take an intervention from Mabon ap Gwynfor?

I will, as he's waving on the screen.

Yes, he's waving.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. Sam, we heard the Deputy First Minister say earlier that it's up to local authorities how they allocate their resources, suggesting that it's their choice to sell farms off, but in many instances we know that local authorities aren't funded properly, and therefore they don't have a choice but to sell the family silver. So, do you agree with me that local authorities should be funded properly in order to maintain these council farms so that they can be retained in public ownership?

Diolch, Mabon. There's always a choice to be made, and it's often the rural councils that are unfairly funded and rural constituencies, communities and councils are the ones that tend to have the most amount of council farms as well, so there's a potential disparity there that needs to be explored.

I think that Llyr in his contribution raised an important point around a summit, which he's called for before. I'm disappointed by the Deputy First Minister's response to that. I think there is a facilitating role within Government rather than a dereliction and abdication of duty here on whether we actually see a sustainble future for council farms. Llyr also mentioned the TFA, the YFC, the NFU, the FUW; it was as if the Scrabble board of acronyms had fallen across the Senedd floor here, with so many acronyms. But, there's important stakeholders at play here, all of whom are trying to advocate for the benefit of council farms within a holistic approach to Welsh agriculture, which is often ignored.

And Jenny Rathbone I must commend on her work around advocating for sustainble food systems. It's been a joy to have Jenny on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee as well, pushing this pressing point, and the just-in-time model that Jenny mentioned as well, and how council farms can feed into, quite literally, our food systems in rural Wales as well, and changing the way. I think Jenny was right to challenge the Welsh Government on their amendment to this debate.

Russell George, wearing his YFC Montgomeryshire tie—. I'm conscious of the time. I just wanted to plug the YFC once more, as former chair myself, but Russell very much recognised the contribution of council farms from his time on Powys County Council and expressed his distain at what's currently happening in the council area at the moment.

Carolyn Thomas, who's no longer in the Chamber but made a very valuable point, that, actually, these are homes as well as farms: these are part of the housing stock within council local authority areas, so it's as much an important point around food production as it is ensuring that there's good quality homes for people in rural areas where traditionally those houses and housing stock is far more difficult to come by.

Janet raised Brynle Williams, and after she sat down, Andrew said, 'Once met, never forgotten'; someone I never met myself, but I'm sure Brynle and his spirit lives on in this Chamber.

But, I close, Llywydd, knowing that I've tested your patience only by urging all Members to support the Welsh Conservatives this afternoon. Diolch.

The point is democracy and the ability to vote and express different opinions. Long live democracy.

and express different opinions. Long live democracy.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that reading in Wales is in a moment of crisis—20 per cent of young people leaving our schools functionally illiterate is something that should keep us all up at night, quite frankly, and the PISA rankings paint a dire picture of the wider state of education in Wales. Time and time again, we are the lowest ranked nation in the United Kingdom on every single subject, and it's been that way every single time that we've been assessed.

But in terms of reading, we need to ask ourselves 'why?'. Why are we the worst readers in the United Kingdom? I don't think our young people in Wales are any less capable of learning to read than are young people anywhere else in the United Kingdom, but it is the way that it is being taught in Welsh schools that is the problem. The system of cueing has been internationally panned as a method of teaching young people to read, and yet that is exactly the system that is being pursued in too many schools. Let me read what one Cardiff headteacher said about cueing—'using pictures and context cues can cancel out the benefits of teaching phonics.' Professor Rhona Stainthorp, one of the UK's leading experts on reading development, said that,

'Cueing is not based on any empirical evidence of how children learn to read, it’s just a wish list'

And that is exactly the system the Welsh Government is pursuing in too many of our schools right across our country.

Now, when this story broke a few weeks ago by ITV, how did the Welsh Government respond? It responded, in my view, by blaming teachers, by saying that they were teaching reading incorrectly in our schools, that they never said it in the first place. Well, it is all over references in the Welsh Government's curriculum and there are mentions on local authority websites and school websites. It is clear that this is widespread. Even Estyn have been praising schools for their use of cueing. I'll give you an example. Page 136, 140, 151, 152, 153 of the Welsh curriculum for Wales guidance have references to inferring meaning from text and images, i.e. cueing. It is all over the guidance issued to our teachers. So, it is not the fault of the teachers, as the Welsh Government likes to portray—it is the fault of the Welsh Government itself. It seems that the Welsh Government seems to think that the only thing that teachers can read is the tea leaves.

So, where are we? Well, how the Welsh Government responded would have been comedic if it wasn't so tragic, and what we've seen is an article come up today, actually, from ITV, which has the following quote, which is pretty damning, in my view: 'the official Government response has changed three times in three weeks.' I wrote to the Minister two weeks ago after our exchange in this Senedd Chamber over cueing and its use in our schools, because I felt there were some inaccuracies in what the Minister said in reply, and in response I was invited to a technical briefing by the Welsh Government. Now, I'm not being funny, I have not changed my position three times in three weeks. I know what I think. I follow the evidence. I think it is the Welsh Government that needs to go to a technical briefing to find out exactly what it thinks from one day to the next, because if the Welsh Government doesn't know what it thinks—the guidance it's giving to our teachers, to our young people, to our pupils—how on earth are those teachers expected to know that as well?

In that article, it continues to pan the Welsh Government approach, and again, the latest change in message, if you like, from the Minister now, apparently, is that cueing should be used to teach reading with phonics as the building blocks. That's not what was being said last week, and that is different again to what was being said the week before. Kathy Rastle, in that article, another UK reading expert, said,

'Some children do struggle to learn to read but the appropriate intervention is generally more rather than less phonics'

'There is certainly no evidence that these children should be engaged in discredited approaches based on the use of ‘cues’ for reading.'

So, if the Welsh Government doesn't know what it thinks from one day to the next, doesn't know how to teach our young people to read, I can assure her that the Welsh Conservatives do. We've got a clear plan. It's backed up by the evidence, backed by the experts, it puts pupils first. When it comes to education in Wales, we follow the evidence, while they follow the ideology, and that's why we've tabled this motion today, and that's why I hope everybody will support it.

that's why we've tabled this motion today, and that's why I hope everybody will support it.

So many debates this afternoon. Thank you. Peter Fox.

Diolch, Llywydd. There are not many more important debates to have than this one, about the future prospects of our children in Wales. It's such a vital topic, and getting this wrong has dire consequences and will cost future generations to come significantly. As we've heard, the Welsh Government's failure to manage our education system here in Wales is leaving a fifth of our children starting secondary school

starting secondary school as functionally illiterate. That is an embarrassing legacy of this Government and will have a devastating impact on our children's prospects. Studies have shown that people who are unable to read are more likely to suffer from mental health illness, go to prison and even die younger. Clearly, then, things need to change in Wales in this regard. 

When it comes to our education system here in Wales, we need to make sure that what and how our children are taught is driven by evidence, as we've heard from Tom Giffard—a point that was made by the education Secretary earlier this month, but it's a shame that this has not always been the case. It's incredibly concerning that the Welsh Government still permits the use of a method of teaching that was banned in England almost 20 years ago. It is clear that we need to implement a much better system here in Wales. We must see urgent action from the Welsh Government ensuring that the system of synthetic phonics is adopted. This method is evidence based and helps children to learn the relationships between letters and the sounds they make. This has been proven to help children both read and spell, both of which are vital for their studies in other subjects. Not only that, but we need to see the Government bring forward reading testing regimes as are in place in other parts of the United Kingdom. When it comes to our children and future generations, we need to ensure we get it right from the beginning, and that is clearly something that the Welsh Government has not been doing. I encourage all Members to support our motion today.

The Welsh Government has already made it clear that there is a need to improve literacy outcomes for learners, and it is for this reason that the Cabinet Secretary has made it clear that this is a top priority. We can't expect to see progress overnight. We need to give time for the steps that the Cabinet Secretary has already set out to embed themselves in our schools before we can see the progress we all know is necessary. It is my understanding that phonics will be central to this as the building blocks of learning to read by breaking down words into sounds. The teaching of phonics is already included in the statutory expectations that schools are required to comply with. I've been pleased to see the support that Welsh Government is putting in place to get schools where they need to be. Working closely with local authorities to review provision and bring together examples of effective best practice in the classroom. 

Once again, PISA results have been put at the very forefront of this motion. Nowhere does it refer to pupil well-being, confidence or happiness in the classroom; instead, it calls for testing regimes, something we know puts a great deal of stress on both the children, who have to take these tests, and teachers who are assessing them. I completely agree with the Welsh Government amendment on this point. Decisions about the teaching of reading must always be guided by the best interests of the learners. 

As I said last week, PISA is just one measure of education and it does not take into consideration the well-being of our pupils. I hope we all agree that the aim of the education system should be to help develop children into well-rounded citizens, ready for adulthood, not simply to be statistics on a page. And I look forward to hearing the Cabinet Secretary's response, detailing Welsh Government's progress on teaching literacy. Thank you.

Schools should be places where our children are nurtured and equipped with essential skills to set them up for life because, after all, they are indeed our country's future. Yet, sadly, as we all know, that isn't often the case here in Wales, with educational outcomes for our youngsters being abysmally poor. And the blame for this sorry and completely avoidable saga lies firmly at the door of this Labour Government, with successive Ministers failing to get to grips with the issue. Our teachers all across Wales do a tremendous job under immense pressure, and this is by no means a criticism of them, as they can only work with the tools that they are, indeed, given. It is deeply concerning and shocking, and I must reiterate what my colleague, Peter Fox, mentioned in his contribution, that 20 per cent of children in Wales are functionally illiterate at the time that they are entering secondary school. 

Areas in my region of south-east Wales historically have had high levels if illiteracy and innumeracy. A BBC probe in 2015 found that schoolchildren in the Valleys had the lowest reading and numeracy levels within Wales. And a damning report in 2013 found out that four out of 10 children in Merthyr are functionally illiterate. This is something that my predecessor raised on countless occasions right here within the Chamber and, indeed, campaigned for action. Fast forward many years, and it appears that very little progress has been made, as we are standing here today once again talking about the very same issue. For nearly 20 years, Wales has consistently ranked at the bottom of the PISA table in reading, maths and science, when compared to the four nations

when compared to the four nations in the UK. The effect of these findings will likely have a truly devastating impact on our future generations, and to be quite frank, they deserve a lot better than this. It was particularly troubling to hear of studies finding that people who are unable to read are more likely—as my colleague mentioned—to die younger, go to prison, suffer from mental health problems and experience undue hardships within their lifetime. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the explanation for lower education performance in Wales is more likely to reflect the Welsh Government's policy and approach.

One area where the Welsh Government is indeed letting Welsh pupils down is its insistence on recommending the Q method, despite it being proven to damage children's ability to learn to read. Following a review into the teaching of early reading, the Q method has been banned in England since 2005. Instead, the UK Government has mandated the teaching of systematic synthetic phonics. Since its abolition and the introduction of a phonics screening check, reading test scores in England have indeed risen. It is clear that Labour's new curriculum here in Wales isn't working, and Ministers must now advocate for schools and teachers to use the phonic method in a bid to improve outcomes for students as today's motion states. And reading, testing regimes must also be introduced, bringing Wales in line with other parts of the United Kingdom.

I can't imagine for one second that anyone here today wants our children to be on the back foot from the get go. We need to all work together collectively to eradicate illiteracy, and I hope that all Members across the Chamber will support our motion this afternoon. Thank you.

Thank you, Llywydd. Can I begin by stating that the motion as tabled is simply inaccurate? 'Functionally illiterate' is not a term recognised or collected as a data item by the Welsh Government, nor is it being used by Estyn for over a decade. The report being quoted out of context here is from over 12 years ago. Following that report, a huge amount of progress was made. Results in PISA and in our national assessments were improving until the pandemic. Indeed, ahead of the pandemic, Wales was the only country in the UK improving standards in literacy, numeracy and science in PISA tests. Since the pandemic, we are clearly not where we need to be.

Are you taking an intervention, Cabinet Secretary, from Janet Finch-Saunders?

Oh, go on, then. [Laughter.]

Janet Finch-Saunders, please.

Okay, so as the current Cabinet Secretary responsible, how do you think it looks in the media and on the TV whereby 11-year-olds are presenting now with the literacy capability of four-year-olds? Are you proud of that?

Thank you, Janet. I'm not sure if you didn't actually listen to what I just said about the misinformation your group is promoting about functional illiteracy, so maybe you want to go back and review the record on that.

Now, as I was saying, our PISA results have been disappointing, and they tell us that we must act now to improve standards of literacy in Wales. While Estyn reports have indicated—are you listening to this, Janet?—most schools plan effectively to develop pupils' literacy and that many 10 to 14-year-olds use basic reading skills well, it is clear to me that we must do more. Literacy is central to our priority of improving standards in education. We have begun to work with partners to clarify our guidance and support to ensure that our expectations are clear for schools and that the importance of phonics is more explicit.

On that point, let me be absolutely clear: we expect learners to learn to decode words using phonics. This is in line with the latest evidence. However, being able to simply decode words is not enough. Learners may be able to read text aloud, but if they cannot grasp the meaning, they won't become fluent readers. Llywydd, when I learned French, if my teachers had only focused on decoding, I'd be able to read out what was written, but without understanding the meaning; I wouldn't have any idea what I was reading. This is what we mean about taking a balanced approach; phonics is a vital building block, but we cannot forget the wider strategies that have to come alongside this, and that must be driven by the needs of learners. Estyn's statement last week on this was clear: our most effective schools use phonics as a key building block,