National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to this meeting of the Petitions Committee. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. Agenda item 1 is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. 

He has been asked to substitute on another committee and is unable to join us today. Are there any declarations of interest?

Just to note, given the items we're to discuss today, I am an honorary associate of the British Veterinary Association.

Thank you.

And with regard to P-06-1461 about universal actions in the sustainable farming scheme, I declare that I am a farmer.

Thank you. I would just like to say, in relation to item 3.1, the petition regarding veterinary practices, that my sister-in-law works for a veterinary practice that has just been taken over by a corporate. And just regarding item 2.2, which is regarding Members' expenses, that involves us all, doesn't it, really. 

We move on to new petitions. Petition P-06-1461, 'Scrap the "Universal Actions" and payment reductions in the proposed Sustainable Farming Scheme'.

'The proposed "compulsory" 10 per cent planting of trees & 10 per cent reverting productive land to habitat, will lead to an obvious 20 per cent + reduction in food produced in wales, jobs losses & businesses overall turnover in an already struggling industry, this will have a huge knock on effect to rural businesses & communities & families overall living standards. Every universal action increases labour/paperwork & costs to an already strained occupation, yet this is not reflected by increased payments. Unworkable!'

That was submitted by Jethro Small, and there are 15,970 signatures. Could I ask Rhys if he would like to comment on this?

Of course, but I think it was on the royal college. Did we agree that I was covering the royal college item?

Sorry. This is one that Luke was going to do. I'm sorry, I've caught you out. I apologise, Rhys—

No, not at all, I was happy to do it, Chair—

—I dropped you in it, while you were drinking a glass of water. I have agreed to cover this on behalf of Luke.

Both the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee and the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee will be having a debate on this on the same day, on the sustainable farming scheme payments. So, there'll be a joint debate. It will be held on Wednesday 23 October, and is expected to cover the issues raised by the petitioner. I understand that 90 minutes have been allocated, which is a good time for all the views to be heard. The points raised by the petitioner are well known and have been aired. I've heard them spoken many a time as well, so I'm sure that they will be also referred to. So, I believe that this will be covered in that debate. Are there any other thoughts?

If I could, Chair, I think it's only fair that the petitioner has, perhaps, a few views from the group. There are many issues that, as you said, have been very well rehearsed about, perhaps, some of unworkability of some of the original views that were expressed in the draft sustainable farming scheme. Many of those have been explored, the pros and cons have been discussed many times, but there is genuine concern from the farming community. It has been well documented in the petition, some of the real fears that farmers have across the piste. 

I know that the Government want a system that will work, and we all want something that will deliver environmental benefits, but also sustain our farming industry into the future. It's absolutely fundamental, then, that the Government, the farming unions and the environmentalists come to a solution that can genuinely deliver all of those things. I don't think we were in that place before. I'm positive that the Cabinet Secretary responsible now is listening, and we look forward to hearing, perhaps through the debate you mentioned, some of the progress that has been made to get over some of the hurdles that were presenting to stop people accepting what was put forward initially.

I think they are very real concerns that haven't gone away, but there's a lot of expectation there will be some positive outcomes in the future with the farming unions working closely with the Government and whatever groups are helping to shape this. I look forward to the debate, and I, no doubt, will have to take part, or will want to take part.

Thank you. It does say here there's a ministerial round-table with a stakeholders group. I think there are 21 members on that, and there are sub-groups as well. There was a little bit of misunderstanding as well, sometimes, as things were repeated, so hopefully all that will come out in that debate and discussion going forward. But as you said, if we can find that pragmatic approach—. Hopefully, with everybody feeding in now through the ministerial round-table, that will be achieved. Are we okay, then? We're agreed that we've got the debate coming forward, and then we are quite happy to close this current petition, yes? Okay, great. Thank you very much. 

That moves us on to agenda item 2.2, P-06-1473, 'Reduce Members of the Senedd’s expenses bill'. It reads: 

'With the current financial situation faced by every family in Wales, I propose that as being a Member of the Senedd is their job, expenses claimed by Members of the Senedd should exclude expenses that every other household in Wales faces, so no more paying utility bills, council tax, rent or home improvements. Travelling expenses should only be to the value of the equivalent cost on public transport and any hotel stays should be paid at Travelodge rates.'

The submitter is Martyn Evans and he has collected 368 signatures. Could I invite Peter to discuss this petition?

Thank you, Chair, and I thank Mr Evans for putting forward his petition. Obviously, he raises some points of concern to him and I'm sure they might be shared by many other people, but sometimes the wider public don't always, perhaps, understand the nature of the role and what it takes to do the job.

I think we need to be very clear that Members of the Senedd do not preside over what allowances they get or what can be claimed for and what can't be claimed for. That is all in the gift of the Independent Remuneration Board of the Senedd. It is a board that is totally independent from us as Senedd Members and it determines all of the expenses and things that we, as Senedd Members, can claim for. That is all laid out in a document called the 'Determination', which is very clear and has to be followed to the 't', and it's not in our discretion to alter that.

I would suggest that the petitioner, if he has concerns, writes to the remuneration panel to air those concerns, but there is little more that we can do in this regard. And in that position, I believe that we need to close the petition, but forward the petitioner's concerns to the independent remuneration panel, because, as I said, they are the responsible body that oversees this.

Any more views? Do we agree with that?

Agree, Chair.

Okay. So, we will close the petition and forward the petition to the independent remuneration board, going forward. Thank you, Peter.

We move now to agenda item 3, which is updates to previous petitions, which leads us to 3.1, which is P-06-1291, 'Hold an enquiry into the corporate takeover of the veterinary profession in Wales'. The submitter, Dr Linda Joyce-Jones, is here in the gallery today—welcome—along with Jayne Dendle. Rhys, could I ask you to comment on this?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. This is the seventh time we've considered this petition including, on one occasion, we held an evidence session with regard to this. It's clear that there are some serious gaps in provision across Wales, which particularly hits rural Wales. As we're aware from our last consideration of this matter, the Competition and Markets Authority have an ongoing inquiry in this matter. It's fair to say that the petitioner has some concerns with regard to that inquiry, but it's due to run for another 12 months, I believe. We've also received a submission from two academics who specialise in competition law. They state, in their submission to us, that they believe that the changes in veterinary services could have a profound effect on rural areas. We've also had a submission from Cats Matter, also asking for further investigation. We've also had a political briefing, which has just been submitted before this meeting, from Unite with regard to ongoing trade union disputes at a veterinary firm in south Wales.

The petitioner is quite clear that she doesn't want us to close the petition and I'm in agreement with her. I think it's certainly worth us waiting to see what the Competition and Markets Authority says when their inquiry is completed. There is some suggestion that we can refer this matter to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. I understand that they're unable to take on the work now, straight away, but they might have some space later on in this Senedd term, so worth bearing that in mind. So, my suggestion, Cadeirydd, is that we keep this petition open, we keep a watching brief with regard to what the Competitions and Markets Authority says, and also remain in communication, as I know the clerking team is, with our fellow committee. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. I'd just like to pull a little bit out of the information from Unite. So they've done a lot of work on this and supported the workforce of Valley Vets, who are in dispute with VetPartners, saying it's 

'the tip of the iceberg in the veterinary sector',

in which support staff are now

'experiencing poverty pay, falling real terms wages for clinical staff',

although there are 25 per cent increases in charges. It says that

'Staff struggle to make ends meet.'

'Clients struggle to afford veterinary fees leading to financial difficulties, patients not being presented for treatment and hence suffering and unnecessary euthanasia.'

It's shocking all round. Also, there's a concern, it says here, 

'Since 1999 non-veterinary ownership of veterinary practices has been permitted',

which has started all of this. 

'This has led to a feeding frenzy of corporate acquisitions of UK practices by 6 large companies which now own 60% of the veterinary sector. Some of these are themselves owned by private equity'—

so that's the other thing that's coming into it—'including Vet Partners'. And it says here, 

'BC Partners acquired Vet Partners (VP) in 2018 for £720 million and attempted to sell it last year for £3 billion'.

So, it's that money side behind it. It sounds like there are similar issues in America, and, in France, they've taken legal steps against corporate ownership of clinics.

So, the CMA, the Competition and Markets Authority, is currently investigating the six corporations who own roughly 60 per cent of all veterinary processes, citing the uncompetitive environment leading to overcharging for customers and poorer service. So, it says here that the CMA have had an unprecedented 56,000 responses from pet owners and vets to the CMA's call for information, which is a lot to work through. The CMA previously published a timetable for the review, which I think is important to note. So, currently it's receiving information requests, publicising statements and receiving submissions from mainly third parties until January 2025; between November 2024 and January 2025, it will publicise working papers and disclose relevant parties; March 2025 will be the deadline for all parties' responses and submissions before the provisional decision; and then the final decision will be published in September-October 2025. So, as Rhys said, it sounds like there's a lot of work going on.

They have said that they've been looking at the work of the Petitions Committee, and I believe that the petitioner as well has been giving evidence, which is really good—to have that inclusivity. There's a little bit of concern that it might be a little bit one-sided, the information there, but to have 56,000 responses, I'm hoping that they're taking good note of all of those from people. It shows how big it is. And, as you said, going forward, we could keep a watching brief on this and then perhaps refer it back again to ETRA, when they might have room in their timetable. So, it sounds as if this year could be really busy, but possibly in line with this we could try again. How do other committee members feel about that? Peter, is that okay?

I'm happy to take your approach, Chair. And also, you know, I thank the petitioners for the work they have done in shining a light on some of the issues, and you've just reiterated some of them there. I am extremely concerned about how many pets might not be going forward for the treatments that they need, because people genuinely can't afford it, and that is so harrowing for somebody who wants to treat their pet but can't, and then has to perhaps consider early euthanasia. It's really worrying and the costs are just significant, especially if you haven't got PetPlan or something similar, you are facing thousands of pounds of bills or debts if you want to treat your pet as you would like. And there needs to be something—. Vets have to make a living—they have to make a living—and it is extremely difficult for them, especially rural vets who perhaps practice a lot on big animals where there's not a lot of profit, and sadly they have to make up their profits perhaps often through small-animal treatment. But that really does put pressure on a lot of people.

So, I don't know what the answer is, but a veterinary service needs to be accessible to everybody or in a way that they can genuinely afford. I don't know what the answers are, but I don't think it's something we can close, because this is a very real situation for many people.  

It sounds like it's a growing global situation that's impacting with this corporate takeover, and it seems to me that it needs to be regulated as well, so that you have fair treatment of staff, but out-of-hours access for everybody, and regulation regarding how much they charge people as well. I'm not sure if that's something—. It's not devolved to Wales, but it's something we can continue to highlight, I think, and raise as an issue. Okay, so are we okay with that summary of what we're going to do going forward? Thank you, we're quite clear on that. 

Item 3.2, P-06-1334, 'Make the Senedd More Representative of the Welsh Population'. That was submitted by Seren Cole, with 258 signatures to it. Peter, would you be able to cover this? 

No problem. This will be the third time that we will have talked to this, firstly in September 2023 and again in October 2023, and now, obviously, again. Very clearly, there is a desire to make the Senedd more representative of the Welsh population. I think everybody agrees on that and it doesn't always look like we demonstrate that when we see, perhaps, our make-up of candidates and how we're represented here. But that's a piece of work that very clearly needs to be continued within the political parties to do more, because it looks like the opportunity to do that through legislation has finished. As we know, the gender Bill is not being taken forward, and the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 received Royal Assent in September this year.

So, most of those legal avenues that are in the hands of the Senedd, for the time being, are closed, and that's why it is more important for those of us in political parties to go back to our parties and encourage that wider representation, which I'm sure all the parties are striving to. They are trying to do a lot on this. So, in that regard, I don't think there's much more that we can do, apart from those other channels we have within our political parties as individuals, and I don't feel there's more we can pursue. And I would suggest that we have to thank the petitioner and close this.   

Any other comments? Thank you, Peter. Yes, Vaughan. 

It's just worth noting that Welsh Ministers do intend to write guidance under Chapter 4 of some of the legislation we've already passed. It'll still then be a matter for political parties to take steps, but that will be publicly made available if the petitioner is interested. And I'm sure that the Minister, Jane Hutt, would be very happy if people took an interest in that, but, as Peter says, it's a matter for political parties to make choices about who they stand, where they stand them, and whether they're in winnable positions or not, depending on the fortunes of each of our respective parties. 

Okay, thank you. Thank you, both. So, we're happy to close this petition and go forward. Okay, we'll just keep an eye on what political parties are doing and hope, going forward, we do have a more representative Senedd. Thank you.

Moving on to item 3.3, P-06-1374, 'Bring Wales in line with England by allowing landowners 60 days tent and campervan camping a year'. The submitter is Andrew Walton, with 430 signatures collected. Vaughan, could I bring you in on this?

Yes. Diolch, Cadeirydd. The response from the Minister and the response from the petitioner are actually quite constructive and helpful in moving matters forward. The Minister makes it clear that the Welsh Government is mindful of the desire of a range of people in the camping sector to have greater permitted development rights. There will be a consultation paper on this and other matters this autumn, and that could be in place for the start of the summer camping season next year. The petitioner welcomes that as a positive step forward, after a period of time where action hasn't moved on. They would ideally like that to be taking place sooner rather than later, and, in most sectors that want change, that's always the case, so there's no difference here. But it does seem that there is a pathway to the sorts of changes the petitioner is asking for.

It seems to me that it's sensible to encourage the petitioner, and others who will no doubt be looking at these proceedings, to take part in the consultation when it comes out this autumn. That will be publicly made available, with the usual press releases and contacts within affected sectors. It doesn't seem to me that there is value in maintaining the petition. It may be that the committee wants to take a watching brief, but I think that, actually, because there are going to be proposals ahead of something that takes place in the new year, my view would be that the petition can be closed, referred back to the petitioner, and the action that the Government is taking they're aware of. If there's a need to come back to this, then I'm sure we'd hear again from the sector in response to the consultation and any proposed actions the Government outlines.

Following the response from Government, the petitioner noted that any changes might not become law until summer 2025, which would be halfway through the season, but he'd be able to use the 28-day permitted rights for the first half of the year as well. So, that would be one way forward.

I'd better declare a late declaration—

A declaration of interest?

Do you have camping on your farm?

—because I am a caravanner.

A caravanner—did you know this?

No, I did not.

I am a member of caravan clubs, and whatever. But, with that in mind, I think this is an excellent idea, and I was pleased to hear what Vaughan was saying, that there may be some legislation that paves the way for this for next summer. Because there are so many wonderful places in Wales to visit, and yet sometimes it's really hard to find a place to stay. So, I think this would be a great addition to the tourism offer of Wales.

It's good that this committee has helped Peter with his holiday plans for next year. [Laughter.]

Exactly. I now know I don't have to go far—I can just plant it in my field. [Laughter.]

You should write your own blog, on the new places you visited this summer. [Laughter.]

So, could we write to the petitioner, just to say that there should be a consultation this autumn, for him to look out for that, really? And we'll close the petition because action is actually being taken by the Government, which is good. We'll just keep an eye that that is happening and following through.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Moving on to item 3.4, petition P-06-1433, 'Stop the ban on GB News in the Senedd'. This was submitted by Mark Griffiths, with 309 signatures. Could I invite Rhys—?

Thank you, Cadeirydd. We probably all remember why this has come about. This is the second time we've considered this. On the last occasion, the committee wrote to the Llywydd, to seek clarity on what the position was. The Llywydd has very helpfully come back with the Senedd policy, which is now publicly available, which it wasn't when the petitioners first submitted. The consideration is that tv channels that assist the professional work of Members and their support staff are those that are required by statute to provide comprehensive news and current affairs, which, basically, means BBC, S4C, Sky News, ITV, Channel 5. The Llywydd also mentioned in her letter that other tv channels and radio channels are available through the IT system. So, I think it's fairly helpful that the guidance is now there, it's publicly available, and the rationale is set out fairly clearly. It's my submission that we thank the petitioner and we close this petition. Diolch.

Thank you. Any other comment? Okay. And we agree with that action. Okay, so we'll agree to close the petition. And it was a really good, comprehensive response, wasn't it, from the Llywydd. So, thank you very much. Thank you, Rhys.

If we move on to item 3.5, P-06-1442, 'Extend Universal Free School Meals to secondary schools'. The submitter is Unite Community Cardiff and Area Branch, with 254 signatures online and 510 on paper, with a total of 764 signatures. Could I ask Peter—?

Yes, thank you, Chair, and can I thank the petitioners for the work they've done on this? First of all, we received this back in July this year. We wanted to go out and—. Well, we wanted to consider a similar campaign that was being driven by St Joseph's Catholic and Anglican High School in Wrexham, and we had feedback from there, so we were holding back for that information. But I think it's really great work that the young people have done in highlighting the pressures around this for many students, as a barrier to learning. So, a good deal of work has gone into this.

The Cabinet Secretary has made it very clear, in her response—Cabinet Secretary, her? Her, it is her, yes. In response, she stated that the money is not there to prioritise the universal roll-out of free school meals into the secondary sector. There's a lot of work gone on to make sure that was rolled out into the primary sector, and I know the Cabinet Secretary will be looking for lessons to be learned out of that primary roll-out, to see how they can do more for the secondary sector, as part of the child poverty strategy. So, again, I congratulate the students who have done so much work around this and for taking time to submit everything they have. Hopefully, they've had some answers to understand their current situation, and I feel there's little we can do, perhaps, other than to write to the Cabinet Secretary for Education to share the evidence before we formally close.

Okay. Thank you, Peter. Would anybody else like to come in? No. Thank you. The students are to be congratulated for their hungry learners campaign. I was at a meeting with one of the colleges, Coleg Cambria, and they're feeding their students toast, because they're coming in hungry. We should never be in this situation, should we? And it's an awful situation, but down to funding. I know that the universal free school meals roll-out was an expensive thing to do, but important, as well, for primary school children. Okay. So, thank you, Peter. Moving forward, we've agreed that we'll close the petition and write to the Cabinet Secretary for Education, going forward. Thank you.

If we move on to agenda item 3.6, P-06-1455, 'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure'. The submitter is Rebecca Totterdell, and there are 10,548 signatures. We received some further written evidence this morning that's been circulated to Members. Rhys, would you like to take this?

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Of course, the junior department has closed. We've heard a lot recently about the cuts in arts and culture; I'm sure we'll hear even more whilst the draft budget is scrutinised later on in this autumn. We had, I thought, a very interesting debate on this topic in Plenary, and we should pay tribute to a former member, Rhianon Passmore, who led on that and has been extremely vocal in her support of the arts and culture, and I'm sure people are very grateful for her support. So, we've discussed it in Plenary.

The petitioner is also to be congratulated, because she has gone on to set up an alternative provision, which is incredibly impressive, a young musicians' academy based in Penarth—maybe you can go, Vaughan, to take part. [Laughter.] But she's urging Welsh Government to look into matching the national music and dance scheme, which offers financial support to talented young musicians in England. So, she does require support. Now, this matter has been discussed a lot; it's been taken up by other committees. I think we should share the latest response from the petitioner to the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, but, from our point of view, from the Petitions Committee point of view, I think all we can do is to thank the petitioner—thank her for raising this issue, for her work in this field, and close the petition. Diolch.

Yes, I agree.

Is everybody in agreement with that?

I do.

Okay, thank you. We'll do that going forward. Thank you.

That then moves us on to several petitions on additional learning needs. So, the committee has five petitions under consideration that relate to additional learning needs, and they've been grouped together as a separate agenda item to a discussion. I'll just go through them briefly, the headings.

So, item 3.7, P-06-1392, 'Reform of the additional learning needs Code of Wales 2021'. Item 3.8 is petition P-06-1341, 'Accessible guidance for parents and schools to help develop plans to support children with additional learning needs'. Item 3.9 is petition P-06-1342, 'Fund more specialist school places and staff for children with additional learning needs in Wales'. Item 3.10 is petition P-06-1347, 'Review Additional Learning Needs policies & make compulsory to FULLY train all teachers and TAs in regulation techniques'. And item 3.11, P-06-1406, 'Financial penalties for Local Education Authorities who do not comply with timeframes for ALN'. So, I'm going to invite Members now to discuss the petitions and any actions you may wish the committee to take going forward.

So, item 3.7, which is 'Reform of the additional learning needs Code of Wales 2021', submitted by Victoria Lightbown with 15,160 signatures. Rhys, would you—?

Thank you very much, Cadeirydd. It's heartening to see the amount of work that is going into this very important area, which needs to be considered properly, and a significant amount of work including stakeholders. By the end of this Senedd term, the Children, Young People and Education Committee will have a further report on additional learning needs reform, so, again, I think this is the end of the journey with regard to the Petitions Committee and we encourage people to see what the children and young people's committee is doing, to follow their work, and to read their report. So, it's my submission, Chair, that we thank the petitioner and close the petition.

Okay. And have we got agreement on that particular item? So, we agree to close this, and it's being taken up by the CYPE committee.

The next one, item 3.8, 'Accessible guidance for parents and schools to help develop plans to support children with additional learning needs', was submitted by Zoe Beasley, with 347 signatures. Again, Rhys, I guess this is a similar response.

Very similar response. Again, I encourage the petitioner here to get involved with the work of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, perhaps respond to what the Welsh Government has said, but, again, thank her for raising this important matter, but, from the Petitions Committee point of view, I think the work naturally belongs with the Children, Young People and Education Committee. So, thank her and close the petition.

Yes. The Chair has spoken out quite strongly, hasn't she, about the importance of ALN provision as well, so I'm sure it will be in good hands as they discuss this going forward. 

Item 3.9, petition P-06-1342, 'Fund more specialist school places and staff for children with additional learning needs in Wales'. This was submitted by Stevie Pyne, with 1,429 signatures. Vaughan, could you comment on this?

Thank you, Chair. We've not had further comment back from the petitioner on this matter, but the subject is really tying up with much of the first two petitions, with the funding, but also the review of provision, as well as the work of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, which I'm a member of. In addition to the curriculum and well-being, which run through the priorities of the current education Secretary, attainment, attendance and ALN reform are her three other big priorities. So, I'm sure we'll see more on it. But I don't think there's more work for the Petitions Committee on this issue as it stands, and I suggest that this particular petition is closed.

I'm sure there will be debates on it as well in the Chamber.

I'm sure there will.

We'll move on to item 3.10, P-06-1347, 'Review Additional Learning Needs policies & make compulsory to FULLY train all teachers and TAs in regulation techniques'. That was submitted by Clare Mitchell, with 6,353 signatures. Peter.

Thank you. We thank the petitioner for this one as well. It closed in June 2023. We did seek views from the Government at that time, and they were shared with the petitioner. The petitioner calls for actions on ALN teaching in the teaching profession, including teachers in the medium of Welsh and teacher training, including training in regulation techniques. The committee shared the petition with the children and young people committee and agreed to return to it once their inquiry had completed. So, there's nothing more we can do until we hear back from that.

Thank you. Are we all in agreement with that as well? Okay. 

That moves us on to item 3.11, the last one of these, which is 'Financial penalties for Local Education Authorities who do not comply with timeframes for ALN'. This was submitted, again, by the first petitioner, Victoria Lightbown, who’s been doing a lot of work on this, with 327 signatures. Peter, do you want to take us through this last one?

Thank you. This petition closed in March of this year, and the Government did respond to the petitioner. The Minister for Education and Welsh Language's letter regarding this petition acknowledged that there is a lack of consistency in the application of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 and the code, but said financial penalties for authorities were not under consideration. The petition was highlighted, again, to the children and young people committee for their inquiry into access to childcare and education. The committee has now reported and the Welsh Government's response to the committee recommendations was received earlier this month. The report and response will be debated on 13 November. So, I think there's little more we can do now. I look forward to that debate, and thank the petitioner and close.

Thank you, Peter. Is everybody in agreement with those actions? Thank you very much for that. We do thank the petitioners. A lot of work has gone into this, collecting all those signatures. There are lots of signatures here. It shows how important it is, and I do believe that the committee is taking this—. It's very important to them, and we'll have that debate, like you said, on 13 November. Thank you very much.

That takes us on to papers to note, pack page 26. Item 3.12, petition P-06-1474, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres', along with item 3.13, in relation to petition P-06-1447, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing the visitor centre at Ynyslas National Nature Reserve'. These were debated last week, as well, weren't they? You're invited to note the papers in relation to those. And we've got a letter in the pack from NRW relating to the two petitions.

There will be another opportunity to discuss that next week when we can look back at the debate that we had—in the next meeting. 

Okay, that's good. I won't do it now, then. We'll wait until next week. 

That takes me to agenda item 4, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the remainder of today's business. Is everybody in agreement? Thank you. We can close the public meeting.