National Assembly for Wales

Apologies have been received today from Adam Price and we have Llyr Gruffydd with us today as a substitute. Diolch, Llyr. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Please can Members ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent mode. Senedd Cymru operates through the media of both the Welsh and English languages. Interpretation is available during today's meeting.

Item 2, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. Item 2.1, the Special Procedures Licensing Committees (Wales) Regulations 2024, draft report. These regulations are part of a suite of regulations, some of which we considered at our meeting last week, which fully enact Part 4 of, and Schedule 3 to, the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 in respect of special procedures, which are acupuncture, body piercing, electrolysis and tattooing. These regulations make provision about the procedures available to local authorities' licensing committees or their sub-committees for the purpose of the exercise of certain functions relating to special procedures licences under Part 4 of the 2017 Act. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point and one merits point. A Welsh Government response has been requested. Over to you, Kate.

Thank you. The technical reporting point seeks further explanation from the Welsh Government in relation to when a licensing committee may exercise the power to postpone or adjourn a hearing, and the merits point is noting the length of time taken to implement the licensing scheme under the 2017 Act, which has taken more than seven years. Members will recall that the same reporting point was raised on the regulations that you considered last week, and we're waiting for the Welsh Government's response.

Thank you. Have Members got anything they want to raise? No. 

On to item 2.2, the Charges for Residues Surveillance (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2024. These regulations amend the 2006 regulations of the same name to update the charges payable to the veterinary medicines directorate in relation to the surveillance for residues of veterinary medicines and certain other substances in food animals and animal products. They also amend the 2006 regulations by substituting the Secretary of State with competent authorities in Wales, so that the competent authorities performing official controls are able to recover the charge incurred in carrying out the inspections and controls in relation to this surveillance. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point and one merits reporting point. A Welsh Government response has been requested. Kate, would you like to run through the reporting points?

The technical reporting point is seeking further explanation from the Welsh Government in relation to one of the charges listed in the regulations. There's a possible typographic error that has the effect of making the figure for this charge significantly lower in Wales than in the equivalent Scottish and English legislation, and the purpose of these regulations is alignment across Great Britain. The merits point is just noting the breach of the 21-day rule and the reasons that have been given for this in the letter to the Llywydd, and we're waiting for the Welsh Government's response to the technical reporting point.

Thanks, Kate. Do Members have any points you want to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes. Thank you.

Item 2.3, the Firefighters’ Pension Schemes (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024. These regulations ensure that firefighters' pensions are revalued by the correct rate in respect of 2021 and 2022, and make correcting amendments to various regulations concerning firefighters' pensions. The letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government states that some of the corrections seek to address some of the points that were raised by the committee in our reports on previous regulations. It also indicates an amendment previously proposed in relation to a reporting point will now not be made. Our Senedd lawyers have identified two merits reporting points and a Welsh Government response has been requested. Kate, would you like to run us through the reporting points?

The first merits point asks the Welsh Government why the explanatory memorandum explains the need for the retrospective effect of regulation 3 but not regulation 4. It would be helpful if reasoning was provided for both the provisions that have retrospective effect. The second merits point is just noting that letter from the Cabinet Secretary, and so we're waiting for the Welsh Government's response to the first merits point only.

Thanks, Kate. On to Members—do we have anything to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes.

Item 2.4, the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 (Designation of Providers) Regulations 2024. These regulations make provision about the Welsh Ministers’ power to designate a provider of tertiary education as an institution under the 2022 Act. They set out the procedures to be followed by a provider when applying for designation as an institution, along with the decision-making process and the procedure for withdrawing a designation. Senedd lawyers have identified two technical reporting points and one merits reporting point. A Welsh Government response has been requested. Kate, would you like to run us through the reporting points?

The two technical reporting points identify potentially defective drafting in relation to some of the definitions in regulation 2. The merits point also relates to a definition in regulation 2 and suggests that the provision would have been more accessible if the referenced external document was hyperlinked in a footnote. We're waiting for the Welsh Government's response. 

Thank you, Kate. Do Members have anything they want to add? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes. 

Item 3, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered. The Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas (Procedure and Interest Rate) (Wales) Regulations 2024: the committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 30 September and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government's response to the report, which has since been received. Kate, do you have anything to raise in relation to the Welsh Government's response?

Yes, thank you. The committee's report identified eight technical reporting points, all of which related to problems with the drafting. In response, the Welsh Government accepts these points but does not propose to make any corrections, with the exception of addressing one point by correction slip. So, Members may just wish to note that this is not an entirely satisfactory response. And if I could specifically draw your attention to three issues with the responses. Reporting point 4 identified a problem with the text in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2. The Welsh Government accepts the point raised, but says that confusion can be addressed in practice. So, the committee may just wish to remind the Welsh Government that it is the legislation that sets out the law and it's generally not appropriate for problems in legislation to be left to be resolved in practice. 

Reporting point 5 identified an issue with the definition of 'concurrent application', which has been defined for the purposes of regulation 8, but the term is also used in regulation 6. The Welsh Government, again, accepts this point but considers that it would be clear in context that the term is intended to have the same meaning in both regulations. The committee's legal advisers would disagree on that point. If a term is defined for the purposes of a single regulation, then it will suggest to the reader and to any court looking to interpret this legislation that, if the same term is used in a different regulation, then it's intended to have a different meaning.

And finally, reporting point 6 noted that the location of an amendment made by the regulations to other regulations was unclear. The Welsh Government accepts this point, but suggests that the effect would be sufficiently clear. Again, we would disagree with that. In our view, there's a clear risk of confusion here, not least because if the amendment applies as the Welsh Government says it does, there will be two paragraphs 4 in the amended regulation, which is bound to cause confusion. So, in light of these three particular issues, the committee may wish to just write to the Welsh Government to note these points and ask why the Welsh Government doesn't think amendments are needed, given that there's a clear risk of confusion here.

Thank you, Kate. Do Members have any comments or questions? No. Are we happy to—?

Sorry, Chair, I'd just like to ask a quick question, if that's okay. In relation to this one, out of everything I've read so far, there seem to be a lot of defective elements in this particular area. So, I just wanted to know, for my own personal knowledge, who exactly is responsible for writing this particular document, purely because we read a lot of things, a lot of Bills come out, a lot of areas of interest. However, I just wanted to know—obviously it's Welsh Government led—is it predominantly civil servants who are writing this, causing the defective issues that we're seeing again and again, particularly in the Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas (Procedure and Interest Rate) (Wales) Regulations 2024?

The regulations will have been drafted within the Welsh Government, but they will have been then approved by the Welsh Ministers. So, the Welsh Ministers are responsible for the document, because they lay it before the Senedd. But it will have gone through a process within the Welsh Government of being drafted and then prepared. So, when there are defective points, that's obviously not ideal.

Understood. Then, Chair, in that case, can we please write, as Kate just stated, and please ask for greater clarification and just ease when it comes to the reading and interpretation of the documents that they are putting together, because—it's difficult enough and there are so many issues now—if, let's say, a third party person who has got nothing to do with Welsh politics reads it, it's going to be very, very difficult for them to keep up? If we're struggling, they're going to have even more issues.

I think you're absolutely right there, Natasha. Kate, is there anything you want to add? I'll take that to be a 'no'. Okay. Are we happy to carry out the suggestions of Natasha and Kate? Yes.

Item 4, notification of correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. This is a standing item on our agenda, however there's nothing to consider under this item today.

Item 5, papers to note. Under general correspondence to note are papers 9 and 10. We have correspondence with the Secretary of State for Wales and UK Government Ministers for inter-governmental relations, inviting them to appear before committee to discuss inter-governmental relations to inform our scrutiny of how Governments within the UK work. We also have correspondence with the First Minister of Wales, inviting her to appear before the committee to discuss areas within the committee's remit that she has strategic responsibility for, including inter-governmental relations, Wales in Europe and the legislative programme. Are Members content to note these? Yes.

Item 6 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Do Members agree? We'll now move into private session.