Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol

Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

26/09/2024

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies
Carolyn Thomas
Delyth Jewell Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Heledd Fychan
Laura Anne Jones

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Adele Thomas Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru
Welsh National Opera
Ashok Ahir Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
National Library of Wales
Christopher Barron Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru
Welsh National Opera
Dafydd Rhys Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru
Arts Council of Wales
Rhodri Llwyd Morgan Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
National Library of Wales

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Haidee James Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Lleu Williams Clerc
Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Sara Moran Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Tanwen Summers Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9:30.

The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.

The meeting began at 9:30.

1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da. Hoffwn i groesawu'r Aelodau i’r cyfarfod hwn o’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Hoffwn nodi ymddiheuriadau, gan fod Lee Waters yn mynychu cyfarfod y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg heddiw. A oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan? Na.

Good morning. I’d like to welcome Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. I would like to note apologies, because Lee Waters is attending a Children, Young People, and Education Committee meeting today. Do any Members have any declarations of interest to make? No.

2. Papur(au) i'w nodi
2. Paper(s) to note

Felly, fe wnawn ni symud yn syth ymlaen at bapurau i’w nodi. Byddwch chi yn sylwi bod nifer fawr iawn o bapurau i’w nodi, achos dyma’r papurau sydd wedi dod i mewn dros egwyl yr haf. Ydy'r Aelodau’n fodlon inni nodi’r papurau? A oes unrhyw beth mae unrhyw un eisiau ei ddweud ar y record amdanyn nhw? Laura.

So, we will move straight on to papers to note. You will notice that we have several papers to note, because these are the papers that have come in over the summer recess. Are the Members content for us to note the papers? Is there anything that anyone wants to say on the record about them? Laura.

Thanks, Chair. I’d just like to note, on pack page 30, for your reference, the letter to Eluned Morgan on the international strategy on Cardiff Wales airport. It says here that there’s going to be a response letter by no later than 17 September 2024. I’m just wondering if we’ve had that, and, if not, why not?

We have not had a response. It has been chased, I think more than once, and, with Members’ permission, we will chase that again, because we are not clear why we have not had a response yet.

Because, as you can see, the figures in here, there are some important—. Well, it’s talking about millions, isn’t it, at the end of the day? And we need to have that information.

Yes, I agree, so if Members—. I get the sense that you’re happy, so we will chase that again.

Os caf i, os gwelwch yn dda. Yn amlwg, mae yna gyfoeth o wybodaeth yma. Mae lot i fynd drwyddo fo. Dwi'n meddwl y byddwn i'n hoffi diolch i bawb sydd wedi ysgrifennu atom ni gyda gwybodaeth ychwanegol, ond hefyd mae yna bethau pryderus dros ben inni fel pwyllgor o fewn y cynnwys hwn. Os caf nodi, er enghraifft, y llythyr, y cyfathrebiad ar dudalen 10 o’n pecynnau ni, gan y Musicians' Union, hefyd y diweddariad rydyn ni wedi ei dderbyn gan bwy oedd y Prif Weinidog ar y pryd, Vaughan Gething, yn dilyn y sesiwn graffu, os ydyn ni'n edrych ar dudalen pecyn 28 yn benodol, yn sôn am ddyfodol y rôl o ran cynrychiolydd Llywodraeth Cymru ar Ewrop, sy’n berthnasol iawn o ran ein gwaith ni. Felly, dwi ddim yn mynd i fynd drwy bob un o’r rhain, ond dwi yn meddwl bod angen inni edrych yn fanwl a chael trafodaeth ehangach, oherwydd yr holl ystod o bethau problematig a phryderus iawn sydd yn codi fan hyn, yn enwedig pethau fel cyllid Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru ac ati. Mae yna lot sydd yn mynd i fwydo i mewn i'n gwaith craffu ni.

Yes, if I may. Clearly, there is a wealth of information here. There is a great deal to go through. I would like to thank everyone who has written to us with the additional information, but there are also some concerning issues for us as a committee within all of this content. If I may note the letter, on page 10 of our pack, from the Musicians' Union, also the update that we’ve received from the First Minister at the time, Vaughan Gething, following the scrutiny session that we had, if we look at pack page 28, specifically mentioning the future of the role in terms of the Welsh Government representative on Europe, which is very relevant to our work. So, I'm not going to go through all of these, but I do think that we need to look in detail at the content and have that wider discussion, because of the range of issues that are raised and the problematic issues that are raised, some very concerning issues that are raised, particularly with regard to funding for the Arts Council of Wales and so on. There is a great deal that's going to feed into our scrutiny work.

Ac i dawelu meddyliau unrhyw un sydd yn gwylio hyn, byddwn ni fel pwyllgor yn trafod cynnwys yr eitemau hyn yn drylwyr, a byddwn ni yn mynd yn breifat, fel y bydd pobl sydd yn gwylio efallai, yn ymwybodol, rydym ni heddiw yn mynd i ddilyn lan gyda eitemau cyhoeddus pan fyddwn ni'n cymryd tystiolaeth ar y sefyllfa ariannol enbyd sydd yn y celfyddydau a chwaraeon, felly byddwn ni'n mynd yn gyhoeddus gyda’r sesiwn gyntaf am 10:40. Felly, byddwn ni'n mynd yn breifat mewn munud, ond byddwn ni nôl yn fyw am 10:40. Ond diolch, Heledd, am nodi hynny i gyd. A oes gan unrhyw un arall unrhyw beth i ddatgan ar y record ar rhain? Na, ond, unwaith eto, i bobl sy'n gwylio gael gwybod, byddwn ni yn trafod y rhain yn fwy trylwyr yn y sesiwn breifat.

And to quiet anyone’s mind for people listening to this, we as a committee will be discussing the content of these items very thoroughly, and we will go private, so, as people who are watching might know, today, we’re going to follow things up with public items where we will take evidence on the financial situation that we have in sports and arts at the moment, so we will go public with the first session at 10:40. So, we’ll go private in a second, but we will be back live at 10:40. But thank you, Heledd, for noting all of that. Does anyone else have anything to declare on the record? No. But, once again, for people watching to know, we will be discussing these more thoroughly in the private session. 

3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 4, 6, 7 ac 11 y cyfarfod hwn a’r holl gyfarfod sydd wedi’i drefnu ar 2 Hydref 2024
3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 6, 7, and 11 of this meeting and for the whole of the meeting scheduled for 2 October 2024

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 4, 6, 7 ac 11 o’r cyfarfod hwn, a’r holl gyfarfod sydd wedi'i drefnu ar 2 Hydref, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) ac (ix).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from items 4, 6, 7 and 11 of this meeting, and for the whole of the meeting scheduled for 2 October, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Felly, rwy'n cynnig, o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42, fod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 4, 6, 7 ac 11 o’r cyfarfod hwn, a’r cyfan o'r cyfarfod a drefnwyd ar gyfer 2 Hydref. Ydy'r Aelodau’n fodlon derbyn y cynnig hwnnw? Iawn, ocê, mi wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni yn breifat, ond, eto, i unrhyw un sy'n gwylio, byddwn ni'n fyw eto am 10:40.

So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that this committee resolves to exclude the public from items 4, 6, 7 and 11 of this meeting and all of the meeting arranged for 2 October. Are Members content to accept that motion? Right, okay, we will wait to hear that we are in private, but, once again, for anyone listening, we will go live again at 10:40.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:34.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 09:34.

10:40

Ailymgynullodd y pwyllgor yn gyhoeddus am 10:40.

The committee reconvened in public at 10:40.

5. Effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru (1)
5. Impact of funding reductions for culture and sport: Evidence session with the National Library of Wales (1)

Bore da, a chroeso nôl i’n gwylwyr ni. Dŷn ni’n symud yn syth nawr at eitem 5. Dŷn ni’n cynnal ein sesiwn dystiolaeth gyntaf ar ein hymchwiliad i effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon, a byddwn ni nawr yn clywed gan Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru. Gwnaf i ofyn i’n tystion ni i gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record, a gwnaf i fynd at Ashok yn gyntaf.

Good morning, and welcome back to our viewers. We're moving straight now to item 5 on our agenda. We are holding our first evidence session as part of our inquiry into the impact of funding reductions on culture and sport, and we'll now be hearing from the National Library of Wales. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Ashok first.

Ashok Ahir, llywydd y llyfrgell genedlaethol.

Ashok Ahir, I'm the president of the national library.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A Rhodri.

Thank you very much. And Rhodri.

Rhodri Llwyd Morgan, prif weithredwr Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru.

I'm Rhodri Llwyd Morgan, the chief executive of the National Library of Wales.

Mae croeso mawr i’r ddau ohonoch chi. Diolch am fod yma gyda ni. Gwnawn ni fynd yn syth at gwestiynau, os yw hwnna’n iawn. Roedd y prif weithredwr a llyfrgellydd blaenorol wedi sôn wrthym ni yn eithaf plaen fod y gostyngiadau yn nifer staff y llyfrgell wedi codi pryderon sylweddol ynglŷn â diogelwch hirdymor a chadwraeth treftadaeth ddogfennol Cymru. Ydych chi’n rhannu’r pryderon hynny, os gwelwch yn dda?

A warm welcome to both of you. Thank you for joining us. We'll go straight to questions, if that's okay. The previous chief executive and librarian had told us in plain terms that the staffing reductions at the library had led to serious concerns about the long-term security and preservation of Wales's documentary heritage. Do you share those concerns, please?

Gwnaf i ddechrau drwy egluro ychydig o’r camau sydd wedi digwydd yn dilyn cadarnhau y toriad cyllid. Felly, roedd y cadarnhad wedi dod ym mis Rhagfyr ac mi wnaeth y llyfrgell ymateb yn syth drwy edrych ar sut oedd medru addasu i’r toriad o ran blaenoriaethu cynnal gwasanaethau rheng flaen y llyfrgell, y gwasanaethau i’r cyhoedd, ond hefyd diogelu, lle oedd modd, y llwyth gwaith ychwanegol fyddai rhywun wedi derbyn oedd yn bryder naturiol, fyddai’n cwympo ar y staff, a hefyd drwy gychwyn cynllun ymadawiadau gwirfoddol. Felly, mae yna 24 o staff yn gadael o ganlyniad i’r toriad drwy’r llwybr gwirfoddol. Mae 18 o’r staff hynny wedi gadael erbyn hyn ac mae yna ryw chwech yn weddill yn gadael dros yr wythnosau nesaf, ac mae hynny yn cyfrif fel 10 y cant o’r gweithlu. Does dim cuddio’r ffaith nad yw hynny yn creu pryder, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn â’r gallu sydd gan y sefydliad i barhau i wneud popeth yn yr un ffordd. Dyw hynny ddim yn bosib, a dwi’n cofio dweud hynny yn y cyfarfodydd staff gawson ni ar ôl wythnos lle oeddwn i yn y swydd fel prif weithredwr ar ddechrau mis Ebrill. Felly, rŷn ni’n mynd drwy’r cyfnod yna, yn dal i fod, o addasu ac ystyried sut ŷn ni’n medru gwneud gwaith weithiau’n wahanol, ond hefyd wynebu y ffaith y gall rhai pethau arafu ac efallai y bydd llai o bethau yn gallu digwydd yn dilyn y toriad.

Rŷn ni’n ceisio gwneud sawl peth eithaf sylweddol yw’r gwirionedd, hefyd, yn ystod y cyfnod yma rhwng Ebrill a diwedd y flwyddyn galendr, lle ŷn ni’n mynd i’r afael â delio ag addasiadau yn dilyn ymadawiadau. Rŷn ni’n gweithio gyda’r bwrdd, gyda’r staff, ar lunio cynllun strategol newydd ar gyfer y llyfrgell. Rŷn ni wedi datblygu rhaglen newid ac adnewyddu sydd yn rhannol yn ceisio cwrdd â’r anghenion yn dilyn y lleihad yn nifer y staff, ond hefyd sydd yn ceisio bod yn edrych ymlaen, edrych ymlaen yn bositif ac yn edrych ar ffyrdd o fod yn darparu a gweithio mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Cynllunio olyniaeth: mae hynny’n hynod o bwysig mewn sefydliad sydd â systemau a phrosesau a staff arbenigol a gwybodus dros ben. Felly, mae’r rhaglen newid yna’n digwydd. Rŷn ni hefyd yn ymgynghori ar newidiadau i’r cynllun pensiwn, oherwydd mae hynny hefyd yn rhan bwysig iawn o sefyllfa darlun cyllidol y llyfrgell.

Felly, dyna bedwar project i chi, heb allu sôn am eiliad am y pethau hwyl, difyr a gwych iawn ŷn ni’n eu gwneud allan yn y cymunedau ac yn denu ymwelwyr i’r llyfrgell yn Aberystwyth. Ond dyna bedwar project, pedair her sylweddol iawn ŷn ni’n mynd i’r afael â nhw nawr.

I'll begin by explaining some of the steps and things that have happened following the confirmation of these funding cuts. So, that confirmation came in December, and the library responded immediately by looking into how we could adapt to the cuts in terms of prioritising maintaining our front-line services, the services for the public, but also safeguarding, where possible, the additional workload that one would accept was a natural concern, the workload that would fall on the staff, and also by starting a voluntary redundancy scheme. So, 24 members of staff are leaving us as a result of these cuts through that voluntary route. Eighteen of those staff have left us already and around six of them still remain and will be leaving over the next few weeks, and that amounts to 10 per cent of our workforce. There's no hiding from the fact that that does create concern, of course, in terms of the ability of the institution to continue to do everything in the same way. That isn't possible, and I remember saying that in the staff meetings that we held after a week of being in the job as the chief executive at the start of April. So, we're going through that period, we're still doing that, of adapting and considering how we can do our work, sometimes differently, but also facing the fact that some things might have to slow down and perhaps there will be fewer things happening following these cuts.

We are trying to do several significant things as well, that's the truth, during this period between April and the end of the calendar year, where we are addressing dealing with the adaptations that we need to make following the departures. We are working with the board and with the staff to design a new strategic plan for the library. We have developed a change and renewal programme that will partly attempt to address the needs that have arisen following the reduction in the number of staff, but that is also trying to look forward, to look ahead in a positive way and to look at ways of providing services and working in a different way. Succession planning: that is incredibly important in an institution that has specialist systems and processes and staff, who are also very knowledgeable. So, that change programme is happening. We're also consulting on changes to the pension scheme, because that also is a very important part of the financial picture, the financial situation of the library.

So, those are four projects for you, without mentioning the fun, interesting and very excellent things that we're doing out there in the communities and attracting visitors to the library in Aberystwyth. But those are four projects, four very significant challenges that we're addressing at the moment.

Diolch am hwnna. Oeddech chi eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth, Ashok?

Thank you for that. Did you want to add anything there, Ashok?

Na, mae Rhodri wedi bod yn llawn gyda’i ateb e.

No, Rhodri gave a very comprehensive response.

Yn hapus. Grêt, gwnawn ni symud at Heledd.

You're happy. Great, we'll go to Heledd.

Diolch. Os caf i felly ofyn, yn amlwg, dwi'n siŵr ei bod hi'n heriol dros ben efo cynllunio olyniaeth, efo chithau wedi gorfod colli 16 o staff, yn weddol o gyflym hefyd. Sut ydych chi'n ymdopi efo'r her honno? Oes yna unrhyw risg rydych chi wedi'i adnabod o ran y casgliadau neu'r adeilad? Gaf i ofyn hefyd sut mae morâl staff a sut ydych chi'n cadw trac ar hynny? Ydych chi'n gwneud arolwg blynyddol, er enghraifft, a sut ydych chi'n gweithredu ar hynny? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae'n gyfnod o ansefydlogrwydd mawr i'r sefydliad, felly dim ond eisiau deall sut ydych chi'n gallu tracio hynny ac yn amlwg, mae yna rôl amlwg i'r bwrdd.

Thank you. If I may ask, obviously, I'm sure it's very challenging with the succession planning, when you've had to lose 16 staff and relatively quickly too. How are you dealing with that challenge? Is there any risk that you've identified in terms of the collections or in terms of the building? Could I also ask how staff morale is looking, and how do you keep track of that? Do you conduct an annual survey, for example, and how do you act on that? Because, obviously, it's a period of great instability for the institution, so I just want to understand how you can track that, and obviously, there's a clear role for the board too.

10:45

Oes. Gyda 24 o bobl yn gadael, mae bylchau amlwg yn mynd i ddigwydd o safbwynt gwybodaeth ac arbenigedd, ac rŷn ni wedi ceisio amddiffyn y gwasanaethau rheng flaen tra hefyd yn sicrhau bod lles y staff a'r llwyth gwaith yn cael y sylw dyledus. Felly, buaswn i'n dweud ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae chwech o swyddi o'r 24 ar yr ochr gorfforaethol—cyllid, llywodraethiant, ac yn y blaen; tair o'r swyddi ar yr ochr ymgysylltu ac addysg; a 15 o'r swyddi ar yr ochr datblygu cysylltiadau, archifau, isadeiledd, digidol, digido, ac yn y blaen. Felly, yn anffodus, mae pob rhan o brif weithgareddau'r llyfrgell yn cael eu heffeithio. Rŷn ni wedi gwneud ymarferiad gofalus iawn yn asesu effaith yr ymadawiadau ac adnabod, wedyn, lle oedd yn rhaid gwneud trefniadau dros dro. Mae hynny wedi gallu gweithio mewn llawer o achosion, ac mae hynny hefyd wedi cael rhywfaint o gefnogaeth ariannol o gyfeiriad Llywodraeth Cymru—rŷn ni wedi derbyn £341,000 er mwyn gallu cyflwyno mesurau lliniaru dros dro. Mae morâl yn gwestiwn da iawn; gwnaf i ddod nôl at forâl.

O ran pwyso a mesur, wedyn, y risg, i roi un esiampl syml i chi: cadwraeth. Tîm profiadol, tîm allweddol sydd yn ein galluogi ni i wneud gwaith ar y casgliadau sydd yno—yn ddigidol ac yn ffisegol—ac rŷn ni wedi derbyn bod dau o'r tîm yna wedi gadael gyda'r ymadawiadau. Nawr, flwyddyn yn ôl, buon ni'n gwneud gwaith pwysig iawn, prysur iawn ar y ddeiseb heddwch—deiseb heddwch menywod Cymru, dwi'n siŵr eich bod chi'n gyfarwydd â'r stori wych iawn—ac roedd y tîm cadwraeth yn chwarae rhan allweddol; roedd pob tîm ar draws y llyfrgell yn chwarae rhan allweddol. Flwyddyn yn ôl, derbyn y gist yn ôl o'r Smithsonian yn America, gwaith glanhau a chadwraeth allweddol yn digwydd ar gynnwys y gist, wedyn y digido, wedyn y tîm gwirfoddol yn dechrau ar y gwaith trawsgrifio, a nawr rŷn ni'n gwneud gwaith ar greu gwefan ac mae honno wedi mynd yn fyw. Ac mae digwyddiadau ymgysylltu yn rhan o'r rhaglen fydd yn cyffwrdd â phob tref, pob stryd yn y wlad, sydd yn ffantastig. Ond nawr mae'n capasiti cadwraeth ni dipyn yn llai. Fyddwn ni ddim yn gallu gwneud ac ymateb i broject mor fawr, mor ddiddorol â hynny ar amrantiad, felly. Bydd yn rhaid inni weithio projectau newydd fel hynny i mewn i'n llifoedd gwaith ni mewn ffordd dipyn bach yn fwy gofalus os ydy'r sefyllfa'n aros yn debyg i fel y mae nawr.

O ran risgiau eraill, fyddwn i'n tynnu sylw hefyd at y ffaith bod y llifoedd gwaith digidol yn cael eu heffeithio. Mae'r capasati'n llai, felly mae'r momentwm yn mynd i fod tipyn bach yn llai o hyn ymlaen, a lle mae hynny'n peri rhywfaint o risg yw nid lefel difrifoldeb y risg, ond pa mor gyflym rŷn ni'n gallu mynd i'r afael â materion. Felly, esiampl fanna, rwy'n meddwl yn benodol am sefyllfa'r Llyfrgell Brydeinig a'r ymosodiad seibr gawson nhw bron i flwyddyn yn ôl. Mae presenoldeb ar-lein y Llyfrgell Brydeinig wedi diflannu, fwy neu lai, yn gyfan gwbl ers hynny, ac mewn, efallai, mis, pythefnos i fis, maen nhw'n gobeithio ailgyflwyno eu presenoldeb yn raddol. Dŷn ni ddim wedi cael ymosodiad, ond mae'n gwytnwch ni yn debyg i broffil y Llyfrgell Brydeinig yn yr ystyr bod llawer o fuddsoddiad wedi bod dros y blynyddoedd, presenoldeb digidol eang, cymhleth wedi digwydd dros gyfnod o flynyddoedd, lle mae'n rhaid i chi uwchraddio systemau a symud gwefannau, symud y casgliadau o hen systemau i systemau newydd sydd yn fwy gwydn, a dyna'r gwaith sydd yn mynd i fod yn arafach yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni nawr.

Yes. With 24 people leaving us, there are clear gaps in terms of knowledge and expertise that will develop, and we have sought to protect those front-line services whilst also ensuring that staff welfare and workload receive the attention that they deserve. So, I would say that we have reached a situation where six posts out of the 24 are on the corporate side—finance, governance, and so on; three of the posts are on the engagement and education side; and 15 of the posts are on the developing connections side, archives, infrastructure, digital, digitisation, and so on. So, unfortunately, every part of the library's main activities is impacted. We've undertaken a very careful exercise to assess the impact of those redundancies and identified then where we would have to make temporary arrangements. That's worked in several cases, and that's had some element of financial support from the Welsh Government—we've received £341,000 to be able to introduce those temporary mitigation measures. Morale is a very good question; I will come back to morale.

In terms of evaluating, then, the risk, to give you one simple example: conservation. We have a very experienced team, a key team that enables us to do work on the collections that we have—digital and physical—and we have accepted that two out of that team have left with those redundancies. Now, a year ago, we undertook very important, very busy work on the peace petition—the Welsh women's peace petition, it's a very wonderful story that I'm sure you will have heard of—and the conservation team played a vitally important part; every team across the library played a key part. A year ago, we received the chest back from the Smithsonian in the USA, and we undertook cleaning and conservation work on the contents of the chest, then we digitised it, and then the volunteer team started the work of transcribing, and now we're working on creating a website and that's gone live. We're holding engagement events as part of that programme, which will touch every town, every street in Wales, which is fantastic. But now our conservation capacity is significantly smaller. We won't be able to respond to such a large project and such an interesting project as quickly, therefore. We will have to work new projects like that into our work streams in a more careful way if the situation remains as it is currently. 

In terms of other risks, I would draw attention to the fact that the digital work streams are being impacted. So, the capacity is reduced, so the momentum is going to be slightly slower from now on, and where that causes some element of risk is not the level of seriousness of the risk, but how quickly we can respond to the issues that arise. So, as an example then, I'm thinking specifically about the British Library and the cyber attack that they faced almost a year ago. The online presence of the British Library has disappeared almost entirely since then, and in a month or so, a fortnight to a month's time, they hope to reintroduce their online presence gradually. We haven't been subject to such an attack, but our resilience is similar to the profile of the British Library in the sense that there's been a great deal of investment over the years, we have a very wide-ranging, complex online presence that's developed over a period of years, where you have to upgrade systems and move websites, move the collections from older systems to newer systems that are more resilient, and that's the work that is going to be undertaken more slowly in the current situation now.

10:50

Morâl. 

Morale.

Mae'n ddrwg gen i. Ie, hynod o bwysig, hynod o bwysig. Felly, o fewn wythnos i gychwyn yn y rôl, roeddwn i'n cynnal cyfarfodydd staff, ac rydyn ni nawr yn cynnal cyfarfodydd staff bob tymor, a'r rheini yn rhan bwysig o gyfathrebu mewnol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n agos iawn gyda'r cyngor partneriaeth, felly cynrychiolwyr yr undebau llafur. Rŷn ni'n cyfarfod yn aml ac yn trafod, wrth gwrs, beth yw morâl y staff. Rŷn ni wedi gwneud arolwg staff hefyd ym mis Mai. Mae'r canlyniadau hynny yn cael eu hystyried yn ofalus iawn gan y tîm gweithredol. Rŷn ni'n edrych ar farn onest iawn y staff, sydd yn dweud, 'Drwyddi draw, rŷn ni'n falch iawn o fod yn gweithio yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol. Rŷn ni eisiau aros yma, rŷn ni eisiau parhau i weithio yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol. Rŷn ni'n poeni ychydig am beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd, ni'n poeni am lwyth gwaith.' Felly, rŷn ni'n monitro hynny yn ofalus iawn.

I'm sorry. Yes, that's incredibly important, incredibly important. So, within a week of starting in my role, I was holding staff meetings, and we now conduct staff meetings every term, and they are an important part of our internal communication. We work very closely with the partnership council, so representatives from the trade unions. We meet very frequently and we discuss, of course, staff morale. We did a staff survey in May. The results of that are being considered very carefully by the operational team. And we're looking at the very honest opinion of our staff, who are telling us, 'Overall, we're very pleased to work in the national library. We want to stay here, we want to continue to work in the national library. We are a little bit worried about what's going to happen, we're worried about workload.' So, we are monitoring that very carefully. 

Ydy hynny'n rhywbeth rydych chi'n bwriadu bod yn gwneud yn flynyddol, felly, er mwyn monitro effaith? 

Is that something that you intend to undertake annually, therefore, in order to monitor the impact? 

Ydy. 

Yes. 

Mae yna arolwg staff blynyddol. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gwneud un yn fuan. Ydy e'n mynd mas cyn y Nadolig eto? 

We do an annual staff survey. I think that we're about to do one soon. Is it going out before Christmas again? 

Bydd. Bydd e'n mynd mas yn fuan.

Yes. It'll be going out soon. 

So, wrth gwrs, llynedd, roedden ni'n tracio sut oedd y teimlad cyn inni fod angen gwneud y penderfyniadau am doriadau. Wrth gwrs, fel bwrdd, byddwn ni'n edrych ar ymatebion y staff yn yr arolwg presennol. Ond hefyd, fel dywedodd Rhodri, dwi'n cwrdd, fel cadeirydd, gyda'r cyngor partneriaeth ar ôl pob un cyfarfod bwrdd, wyneb yn wyneb, ac mae hwnna'n gyfle i mi adrodd yn ôl i'r bwrdd am deimladau nid jest yr aelodaeth, ond yn bendant yr undebau. Hefyd, mae'r haf wedi bod yn brysur iawn i'r llyfrgell. So, ni wedi cael y cyfle i gwrdd â staff sydd wedi bod yn gwneud lot o waith wyneb yn wyneb gyda'r cyhoedd mewn lot o ddigwyddiadau ac arddangosfeydd. Wrth gwrs mae yna bryderon gan y staff, ond hefyd, dwi'n teimlo bod yna deimlad ymhlith lot ohonyn nhw am y cyfleoedd sydd gennym ni, os ydyn ni'n gallu cyrraedd y math o incwm rydym ni ei angen a'r math o gefnogaeth rydym ni ei hangen gan y Llywodraeth. 

So, of course, last year, we were tracking what the feeling was before we had to make those decisions about cuts. Of course, as a board, we will be looking at the staff responses in the current survey. But, of course, as Rhodri said, as president, I meet with the partnership council after every board meeting, face to face, and that is an opportunity for me to report back to the board about the feelings of not just the membership, but certainly the unions. Also, the summer has been very busy for the library. So, we've had the opportunity to meet staff who have been doing quite a lot of face-to-face work with the public in a lot of events and exhibitions and so on. Of course staff have concerns, but I also feel that there's a feeling amongst many of them about the opportunities we'll have, if we can reach the sort of income that we need and the sort of the support that we need from the Government. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Os caf i jest fynd ymhellach, yn amlwg un o'r pethau mawr rydyn ni wedi bod yn edrych arno fo ydy'r risg i'r casgliadau a risg i adeiladau hefyd. Mae gennych chi hen adeilad heriol sydd angen arian cyfalaf. Beth ydy'r effaith ar y funud? Ac a gaf i hefyd gyfuno cwestiwn, oherwydd dwi'n ymwybodol bod yna lu o gwestiynau i'w cyrraedd, jest o ran beth fyddai'r effaith, pe byddech chi'n cael toriad o'r un fath yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, ar y llyfrgell, o ran yr adeilad, casgliadau, staff, ag a gawsoch chi yn y flwyddyn ariannol yma, neu hyd yn oed pe byddech chi'n derbyn yr un un gyllideb, sef aros yn yr unfan?

Thank you. If I may go a little further, clearly, one of the major issues that we've been looking at is the risk to the collections and the risk to the buildings as well. You have a very challenging, older building that requires capital funding. So, what's the impact at the moment? May I also combine another question, because I know there are a whole host of questions to be asked today? What would the impact be, if you were to face a similar cut in the next financial year, in terms of the library, in terms of the building, the collections, the staff, that you faced in this financial year, or even if you received the same budget, a flat budget?

O ran diogelwch casgliadau, felly, wythnos yn union ar ôl i fi ddechrau, daeth storm Kathleen, ac roedd effaith y storm yn amlwg. Gwnaeth hi daro tipyn o'r plwm o'r to ac roedd hynny wedi rhyddhau tipyn o'r llechi. Felly, rŷn ni wedi gweithio yn agos iawn gyda swyddogion y Llywodraeth i amlygu'r difrod a ddigwyddodd, gan gofio nad oes unrhyw waith sylweddol wedi'i wneud i atgyweirio'r to yn y mannau hynny, stac llyfrau 1 a 2, ers adeiladu'r rhannau hynny o'r adeilad 90 mlynedd yn ôl. Felly, roedden ni'n falch o gael y cyhoeddiad ym mis Gorffennaf fod £1.9 miliwn ar gael i ni fedru mynd i'r afael ag atgyweirio'r to. Daeth rhagor o law i mewn echnos, oherwydd y glaw difrifol gawson ni ar draws de Cymru a'r canolbarth hefyd. Aeth staff i mewn am 3 o'r gloch y bore a gwneud beth roedden nhw'n gallu i ddelio â hynny. Ond wedi dweud hynny, mae'r cwmni sgaffaldau wedi cyrraedd, mae'r gwaith wedi mynd allan i dendr ar gyfer atgyweirio'r to, mae cwmni wedi cael ei benodi. Rŷn ni'n mynd i fynd i'r afael â'r project yna yn gyflym iawn, iawn, iawn. A bydd hynny'n golygu bod y to yn ddiogel erbyn haf y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae hynny'n rhoi diogelwch a, dwi'n credu, lefel o hyder y byddai rhywun eisiau, fel aelodau'r cyhoedd, a chi, fod y casgliadau ffisegol a'r adeiladau yn ddiogel am genedlaethau i ddod—mae hynna'n saff. Beth sydd yn gwestiwn hefyd yw nid yn unig yr ystâd gorfforol, ond yr ystâd ddigidol. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth mae eisiau inni fuddsoddi ynddo fe hefyd, felly fe wnawn ni ddatblygu'r sgwrs a'r drafodaeth. Dwi'n teimlo'n hyderus iawn ein bod ni'n cael gwrandawiad da a bod y swyddogion, ac yn y blaen, yn deall y sefyllfa, felly rŷn ni'n mynd i fedru datblygu'r ddealltwriaeth yna o'r anghenion.

In terms of the security of our collections, exactly a week after I started, storm Kathleen rolled in and the effects of that storm were very obvious. It struck quite a bit of the lead off the roof and that loosened some of the slates. So, we have worked very closely with Government officials to try and highlight the damage that happened then, remembering, of course, that no significant work has been undertaken on the roof in those areas, above book stacks 1 and 2, since that part of the building was built 90 years ago. So, we were pleased to see the announcement in July that £1.9 million was available for us to be able to address fixing the roof. More rain did come in two nights ago, because of the very heavy rain that we had across south Wales and mid Wales too. Staff went in at 3 o'clock in the morning and they did what they could to deal with that. But having said that, the scaffolding company has arrived, the work has gone out to tender to fix the roof, a company has been appointed. We are going to address that project very, very, very rapidly. And that will mean that the roof will safe by next summer. That does give us some security and, I think, a level of confidence that one would want, as a member of the public, and that you would want, that the physical collections and the buildings are safe for generations to come—those are safe. What is also a question is not only the physical estate, but the digital estate. That is something that we need to invest in too, so we will have more discussions and develop the discussion in that regard. I feel very confident that we are listened to and that the officials, and so on, understand what the situation is, so we're going to be able to develop that understanding of the needs.

10:55

A fyddai modd darparu mwy o wybodaeth i ni fel pwyllgor o ran ochr y casgliadau digidol, dwi'n meddwl, yn arbennig o ran yr hyn roeddech chi'n dweud am yr ymosodiadau sydd wedi bod? Yn amlwg, mi wnaeth Comisiynydd y Gymraeg ddioddef ymosodiad, wedyn dydy o ddim y tu hwnt i bosibilrwydd. A jest o ran yr ochr gyllidol, beth fyddai setliad fyddai'n gweithio i chi, a beth fyddai'r heriau pe byddai'n aros yn yr unfan, neu'n ostyngiad pellach?

Could you provide additional information to us a committee just in terms of the digital collection side, particularly in terms of what you were saying about the attacks that have been. Clearly, the Welsh Language Commissioner suffered a cyber attack too, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility here too. And just in terms of the financial side, what would be a settlement that would work for you? What would be the challenges that would arise if it were to remain unchanged or if there were to be a further decline?

Wel, mae aros yn yr unfan yn mynd i achosi cryn dipyn o waith eto, wrth gwrs, i ystyried beth fyddai'r goblygiadau i hynny. Dwi wedi disgrifio'n barod, mewn ffordd, ein bod ni'n gallu addasu ac ymdopi i ryw raddau, ond mae'n effeithio ar bob rhan o'r llyfrgell o ran prif weithgareddau. Fydden ni ddim yn medru cynnal yr un strwythur staffio, i siarad yn blaen, pe bai lefel y cyllido'n rhewi neu'n aros yn yr unfan y flwyddyn nesaf, ac yn sicr ddim pe bai toriad pellach i ddigwydd. Pe bai cynnydd, wrth gwrs, fyddai hynna'n sefyllfa well y bydden ni'n ei chroesawu, a fydden ni'n gallu adeiladu i gefnogi'r cynllun strategol newydd, a mynd allan a gwneud y gwaith ychwanegol hynny o ran ymgysylltu â chymunedau ym mhob rhan o Gymru rŷn ni'n torri bol eisiau ei wneud.

Well, staying in the same place, at the same level, would create quite a bit more work as well, to consider what the consequences of that would be. I have already described, in a way, that we can adapt and we can cope with that to a certain extent, but it affects every part of the library in terms of its core activities. We would not be able to maintain the same staffing structure, to speak plainly here, if the funding level was to be frozen, or was to stay where it is next year, and certainly not if there were to be further cuts. If there was an increase, of course, that would be a better situation that we would welcome, and we would be able to build up to support the new strategic plan and to go out and do the additional work in terms of engaging with communities in all parts of Wales that we are so desperate to do.

A dyna'r perygl, rili. Ar y foment, rŷn ni'n trio ailstrwythuro'n fewnol, ond hefyd o ran rhaglenni. Ac mae lot o raglenni sydd ddim yn rhan o'r gwaith craidd, ac, fel dywedodd Rhodri, mae'n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio hefyd ar y gwaith craidd yn bendant i gadw'r casgliadau'n saff. Ond beth rŷn ni ddim eisiau yw colli'r momentwm rŷn ni wedi'i greu dros ddwy, tair blynedd o ymestyn y llyfrgell mas o Aberystwyth. Mae'r gwaith cymunedol a'r gwaith digidol yn hollbwysig, a phe bai yna ostyngiad, er enghraifft, a thoriad, byddai angen inni edrych ar hwnna. Ac rŷn ni wedi trio cadw hwn yn eithaf diogel, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl y byddwn ni'n gallu cario ymlaen pe bai yna doriad o fath y llynedd yn dod eto.

And that's the danger, really. At the moment, we are trying to restructure internally, but also in terms of the programmes that we provide. And many of the programmes aren't part of our core work. We also have to focus on our core tasks to safeguard the collections. But what we don't want is to lose the momentum that we've built up over the past two, three years in terms of the library's outreach from Aberystwyth. The community work and the digital work that we do are vital in that regard, and if there were to be a decline or a cut, then we would need to look at that work. And we've been trying to safeguard that aspect, but I don't think we could continue with it if we were to face a cut at the same level as last year.

Mae hwnna'n dda inni glywed—wel, ddim yn dda inni glywed, ond mae e'n bwysig i ni glywed. Mae Carolyn eisiau gofyn cwestiwn, cyn inni fynd at Alun.

That's good to hear—well, not good to hear, but it's important for us to hear. Carolyn wants to ask a question, before we go to Alun.

I was pleased to go on a tour, during the recess, of the national library—thank you very much to the staff that showed me around; it was really interesting. I heard that there's a decarbonisation programme going on, and that, hopefully, will help with funding the bills of energy and everything. You've had Welsh Government grant funding for that. How is that going?

Wel, gyda'r cynlluniau datgarboneiddio, i roi'r darlun llawn i chi, wrth gwrs, y risg ydy y gallai'r rheini arafu os ydy'r esgid yn gwasgu yn y ffordd mae wedi gwneud. Ond, wedi dweud hynny, rŷn ni'n uchelgeisiol iawn, ac rŷn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am gefnogaeth Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae yna arian wedi dod drwy'r cytundeb cydweithio yn ogystal, sydd yn helpu datblygu momentwm. Felly, mae yna 150 o baneli solar yn mynd ar do'r drydedd storfa. Mae yna 50—mae hyn yn digwydd nawr, yr wythnos hon—o dyllau yn digwydd yn y cae bach ochr draw i'r meysydd parcio—tyllau turio ar gyfer cyflwyno pympiau gwres daear. Mae hynny'n cydgysylltu â'r gwaith wnaethon ni ar arwynebedd y maes parcio, oherwydd mae'r ceblau yn dod i mewn o'r cae bach i gysylltu gyda'r system wresogi. Rŷn ni'n edrych ar, dwi'n hyderus i ddweud, gyrraedd sero net cyn 2030. Mae hynny'n dipyn o gamp mewn adeilad wedi'i rhestri, ond mae'r tîm ystadau jest yn rhagorol, ac mae'r bwrdd wedi buddsoddi hefyd yn fawr iawn yn hyn.

Well, with the decarbonisation plans, to give you the full picture, the risk is that those could slow down if we face further financial pressures in the way that we have already. But, having said that, we are being very ambitious, and we are very grateful for the Welsh Government support that we have received. Funding has been allocated through the co-operation agreement too, which helps to develop that momentum. So, there are 150 solar panels being erected on the roof of the third storage facility. There are 50—this is happening now, this week—pits being dug out in the small field opposite the car park for the introduction of ground-source heat pumps. That links up with the work that we did on the car park surface, because the cables that will come in from the field adjacent to the site will link up with the heating system. And I'm confident to say that we are hoping to achieve net zero before 2030. Now, that's quite a feat in a listed building, but the estates team are excellent, and the board has also invested a great deal in this.

11:00

Mae hwnna wedi bod yn fuddsoddiad dros gyfnod o 10 mlynedd, bron, ac rŷn ni'n lwcus bod gennym ni bennaeth da sydd â ffocws gwirioneddol ar gyrraedd hynny cyn 2030. Weithiau mae'n dweud 2028, ond dwi ddim yn credu 2028, ond weithiau mae'n dweud hynny. Ond gyda'r math o adeilad sydd yna, rŷch chi'n gallu gweld pa fath o esiampl mae'r llyfrgell wedi bod i bobl arall, gobeithio, achos rŷch chi angen buddsoddi, ond gobeithio y bydd hwn yn ein diogelu ni ychydig bach o ran unrhyw dwf mewn costau ynni yn y dyfodol, ac yn bendant dros y degawd nesaf. 

That has been investment over a period of almost 10 years, and we're lucky that we have a good chief executive who has that proper focus for achieving it before 2030. Sometimes he says 2028—I don't believe that, but that's what he says sometimes. But given the kind of building that we have, you can see what kind of example the library has been to other people, hopefully, because you need to invest in it. But hopefully this will safeguard us a bit from any growth in energy costs in future and definitely over the next decade.

Ond mae yna gost gynyddol. Mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn ofalus i beidio â gorgodi'r disgwyliadau, oherwydd rŷn ni yn y broses o waredu nwy yn llwyr a symud i drydan yn gyfan gwbl, a dulliau adnewyddol o gynhyrchu trydan yn ogystal. Ond mae costau trydan wedi mynd lan 30 y cant, felly, er bod ein defnydd ni o drydan wedi lleihau o ran unedau, mae'r gost—cyfanswm y gost—yn dal yn uwch. Felly, rŷn ni'n defnyddio popeth o fewn ein gallu ni. Mae'r system gyfan yn gweithio, gyda'r pennaeth ystadau, lle rŷn ni wedi cynhyrchu gwres. Mae cynhyrchu gwres yn golygu rhoi pŵer i mewn i'r peiriannau sydd yn oeri'r casgliadau, lle mae hynny'n bwysig. Felly, mae'r holl beth yn gweithredu fel system lawer iawn mwy effeithlon, a llawer iawn yn fwy effeithlon na fyddech chi'n dychmygu.

Rŷn ni'n cael sgyrsiau adeiladol iawn gydag Amgueddfa Cymru, yn rhannu'r arfer dda rŷn ni wedi'i datblygu, ac rŷn ni'n gobeithio y byddwn ni'n gallu cefnogi cyrff eraill yn yr un sector a sectorau eraill yn ogystal.

But there are additional costs. We must be careful not to raise expectations too high, because we are in the process of eradicating our gas supplies entirely and moving to using only electricity, and from renewable sources of electricity generation. But electricity costs have gone up 30 per cent, so although our use of electricity has declined in terms of the units that we've been using, the total cost is still higher. So, we are doing everything within our ability. The entire system is working, with the head of estates, for example, where we have generated heat. Heat generation means that we have to put energy into the machines that ventilate the collections, where that's important. So, the system is now far more efficient, and far more efficient than you might expect.

We have very constructive conversations with Amgueddfa Cymru to share the good practice that we've developed, and hopefully we'll be able to support other bodies in the same sector and other sectors as well.

Gwych. Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynna. Diolch am ofyn hynna, Carolyn. Fe wnawn ni symud at Alun.

That's great. Thank you very much for that. Thanks for asking that, Carolyn. We will move to Alun.

Diolch. Dwi'n falch iawn clywed hynny. Liciwn i fynd nôl at y pwynt roedd Ashok yn ei wneud amboutu'r rhaglenni gwahanol yna y mae'r llyfrgell yn rhedeg, yn ymestyn mas o Benglais. Dwi wedi bod yn mwynhau'r rhaglen S4C, Cyfrinachau'r Llyfrgell, ac roeddwn i'n falch, y noswaith o'r blaen, i ddysgu mwy am y Wenynen Gwent, wrth gwrs. Dwi'n hoff iawn o'r ffordd y mae'r llyfrgell wedi, dros y blynyddoedd, ymestyn mas i bobl Cymru ac wedi trio sicrhau bod yna gyfraniad cyfoethog i fywyd y genedl, fel disgrifiad ehangach. Ac un o'r pethau liciwn i ofyn amdano yw sut mae problemau cyllidebol—. Pa fath o impact mae diffyg cyllido, os ydych chi'n licio, yn cael ar allu'r llyfrgell i ymestyn mas o Aberystwyth?

Thank you. I'm very pleased to hear that. I'd like to go back to that point that Ashok made there about the various programmes that the library runs, reaching out from Penglais into other communities. I have been enjoying the S4C programme, Cyfrinachau’r Llyfrgell, and I was pleased to learn more about Gwenynen Gwent, of course, on the programme the other night. I'm very pleased to see the way that the library has, over the years, reached out to the people of Wales and has tried to ensure that there is a rich contribution to the life of the nation, as a broader description. And one of the things that I would like to ask about is how financial problems—. What sort of impact does a lack of funding, if you like, have on the ability of the library to reach out of Aberystwyth?

Wel, fe wnaeth y bwrdd gymryd penderfyniad, yn dilyn adolygiad teilwredig ar y llyfrgell gan Lywodraeth Cymru, mewn ymateb i frawddeg ddadlennol oedd yn yr adolygiad, yn dweud, 'Wel, dyma gyfrinach orau Cymru'. Dyna, mewn ffordd, oedd y sbardun i ni weithio gydag S4C i gomisiynu'r gyfres ac i weithio, bron fel cydgynhyrchiad, ar gyfres Cyfrinachau'r Llyfrgell. Mae'n hyfryd, mae'n wych, ac mae'n dangos y potensial, onid ydy, o sut mae straeon yn berthnasol i ddiddordebau, i unigolion, i gymunedau ym mhob rhan o Gymru.

Mae'n effeithio arnom ni yn y ffordd rŷn ni'n gallu datblygu casgliadau. Felly, tro diwethaf roeddem ni o flaen y pwyllgor, roedd e, efallai, yn haws i fi ddisgrifio'r gwaith ymgysylltu, ond, y tu cefn i'r gwaith ymgysylltu, mae'n rhaid i'r casgliadau gael eu datblygu fel bod y cynnwys yno i chi fedru ei droi yn stori sydd yn berthnasol i unigolion a chymunedau. A beth sydd yn effeithio arnom ni o ganlyniad i'r toriad yw capasiti yn y tîm archifau a'r tîm casgliadau digidol. Er enghraifft, rŷn ni'n cael cynnig cannoedd o gasgliadau, wrth gwrs, y flwyddyn, ac mae'n rhaid bod yn eithaf dethol. Mae yna bolisi a fframwaith ar gyfer hynny. Eleni, rŷn ni wedi cael cynnig 200 o gasgliadau a dŷn ni ddim ond wedi gallu derbyn 100 ohonyn nhw. Rŷn ni hefyd yn gorfod blaenoriaethu yn ofalus y gwaith a'r amser, yn enwedig os oes cyllid allanol yn dod efo'r casgliad—maen nhw'n mynd i fyny yn y ciw, y rhestr o flaenoriaethau. Felly, i roi un esiampl i chi, fe dderbyniasom gasgliad Aelod Seneddol Cwm Cynon, Ann Clwyd, ac fe ddaeth cyfraniad ariannol gan y teulu a hefyd o ffynonellau eraill a oedd yn ein galluogi ni i gyflogi ymchwilydd/archifydd i gatalogio a disgrifio y casgliad hynny mewn manylder. Mae'r wybodaeth yna nawr yn fyw ac ar gael i bobl—ymchwilwyr, pobl sy'n ymddiddori yn holl hanesion difyr gwaith a gyrfa Ann Clwyd. Fe gawsom ni ddigwyddiad llwyddiannus iawn yn yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol; roedd y Prif Weinidog—wel, y diwrnod cyn iddi ddod yn Brif Weinidog—yn disgrifio ei phrofiad hi ac yn siarad am yr archif yn yr un cyswllt. A dyna'r math o waith rŷm ni'n gallu ei wneud, ond mae e'n digwydd pan fyddwn ni'n blaenoriaethu a hefyd pan fydd y cyllid ar gael.

Rŷm ni newydd dderbyn casgliad mudiad Chwarae Teg. Nawr, does dim capasiti gyda ni i wneud yr un lefel o fanylder o waith. Ond mae gyda chi'n fanna ddwy enghraifft—straeon pwerus iawn ynglŷn â menywod, cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, ymgyrchu, ac rŷm ni wedi gallu gwneud y gwaith gydag un ond dŷn ni ddim eto mewn sefyllfa i wneud y gwaith gyda'r llall.

Well, the board took a decision, following the tailored review of the library by the Welsh Government, in response to a very revealing sentence in the report, which said that this is the best kept secret in Wales. That was the driver for us to work with S4C to commission the series and to work almost as a co-production on the Cyfrinachau’r Llyfrgell series. It's an excellent programme and it demonstrates the potential, doesn't it, of how stories are relevant to people's interests, to communities and to individuals in all parts of Wales.

It impacts on us in the way that we can develop collections. So, the last time we appeared before the committee, it was perhaps easier for me to describe the engagement work that we do, but, behind that engagement work, the collections have to be developed so that the content is there for you to be able to turn it into a story that is relevant to individuals and communities. And what impacts us as a result of the cuts that we faced is the capacity in the archives team and the digital collections team. For example, we are offered hundreds of collections every year, of course, and we have to be quite selective. There is a policy and there is a framework for that process. This year, we've been offered 200 collections and we've been able to accept only 100 of them. We also have to prioritise very carefully the work and the time that we allocate, particularly if there is external funding that comes with a particular collection—they will jump the queue and go further up the list of priorities. To give you an example, we received the collection of the former Member of Parliament for Cwm Cynon, Ann Clwyd, and there was a financial contribution made by the family and also from other sources, which enabled us to employ a researcher/archivist to catalogue and to describe that collection in detail. That information is now live and available to people—researchers, people who have an interest in all of the interesting stories in terms of the work and career of Ann Clwyd. We had a very successful event at the National Eisteddfod; the First Minister—well, it was actually the day before she became the First Minister—described her experiences and spoke about the archive in that context. And that's the kind of work that we can do, but it happens when we prioritise and when the funding is available. 

We've just accepted a collection of the Chwarae Teg organisation. Now, we don't have the capacity to undertake that same level of detailed work on that. But there you have two examples of very powerful stories about women, social justice, campaigning. We've been able to do the work on one collection, but we are not yet in a position to do that same level of work on the other. 

11:05

Ac mae cyfraniad Chwarae Teg yn un pwysig i'w gofnodi hefyd. 

And Chwarae Teg's contribution is an important one to put on record.  

Ond hefyd, ar yr ochr arall, y ddadl—dwi ddim yn meindio dweud yn gyhoeddus—rwyf fi a Rhodri yn ei chael, os ŷm ni'n ymestyn mas ac rŷm ni'n trio dangos bod y llyfrgell yn llyfrgell i bawb sy'n rhan o Gymru, yw bod yn rhaid i ni weithio bach yn fwy caled i gasglu rhywbeth sydd ddim yn gasgliad Ann Clwyd neu Chwarae Teg, achos dyna'r math o gasgliadau sydd wastad wedi dod i'r llyfrgell. Ond os ydym eisiau mynd i mewn ac adeiladu'r capasiti o'r hanes, o'r dogfennau, o'r dystiolaeth, lluniau teulu mewn cymunedau sydd ddim wedi bod mewn cysylltiad gyda'r llyfrgell dros y 30, 40, 50 mlynedd diwethaf, mae'n rhaid i ni fynd mas weithiau i weithio gyda nhw, ac wedyn cael y capasiti nôl yn Aberystwyth i fynd trwyddyn nhw a'u catalogio nhw, ac wedyn eu gwneud nhw ar gael i bawb. Mae hwnna'n waith anodd iawn ac mae'n gostus iawn, ac ar y foment does gennym ni ddim y capasiti. Ond dwi eisiau i ni ei wneud e, a gwneud mwy ohono fe, ond mae weithiau'n anoddach na derbyn peil gan Aelod Seneddol. 

But also, on the other side, the argument—I don't mind saying on record—that Rhodri and I have is that if we reach out and we're trying to show that the library is the library for everyone in Wales, then we have to work harder to collect things that aren't Ann Clwyd's collection or Chwarae Teg's collection, because those are the sorts of collections that have always come to the library. If we want to go in and build the capacity of the history, the documents, the evidence, the family pictures in communities that haven't been in contact with the library over the last 30, 40, 50 years, then we have to go out sometimes and reach out to them, and then get the capacity back in Aberystwyth to go through them and to catalogue them, and then make them available to everyone. That is very difficult work and it's very expensive. At the moment, we don't have the capacity to do that, but I would like for us to do that and to do more of it, but sometimes it's more difficult than just receiving a pile of documents from a Member of Parliament.   

Ie. Edrychwch, mae hon yn sgwrs licien i ei chael am weddill y bore, ond dwi'n ymwybodol o'r amser. So, mae gyda ni greisis cyllidebol, ariannol. Rydym ni'n deall hynny ac yn gwybod hynny, ac mi rydych chi mewn sawl ffordd wedi disgrifio hynny ac impact hynny ar sut dŷch chi'n gweithio ac ar y casgliad ei hun. So, licien i ddeall tipyn bach mwy am y ffordd dŷch chi wedi ymateb. Dŷch chi wedi disgrifio hynny'n barod, i ryw raddau, ond sut dŷch chi wedi cydweithio â chyrff gwahanol i greu arian, codi arian a chreu adnoddau? Sut, er enghraifft, yn dilyn y sgwrs rŷn ni newydd ei chael, ydych chi'n gweithio gydag archifau sirol, er enghraifft, i sicrhau bod rhyw archif yn mynd i'r lle priodol, penodol, yn lle bod pob dim yn mynd i Aberystwyth? Licien i ddeall pa fath o greadur, os liciwch chi, ydy'r llyfrgell pan fo'n dod i gydweithio â chyrff gwahanol yng Nghymru a tu fas.   

Yes. This is a conversation that I'd like to have for the rest of the day, but I'm aware of time. We have a financial crisis at the moment. We understand that, and you in several ways have described the impact that that has in terms of how you work and on the collection itself. So, I'd like to understand a little bit more about the way that you have responded; you have described that this morning already, to an extent. But how have you collaborated with different bodies to generate funds, to raise funds and to create resources? How, for example, following the conversation that we've just had, are you working with county archives to ensure that an archive goes to the right place, rather than everything going to Aberystwyth? So, I'd like to understand what kind of creature the library is when it comes to collaborating with other bodies in Wales and beyond. 

Fe wnaf i ddechrau gyda'r sector—llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus, llyfrgelloedd ymchwil, a hefyd archifau sirol a rhanbarthol—a'r berthynas agos iawn, ac mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn buddsoddi, yn ariannu gwaith yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol i gynorthwyo llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus—cyflwyno un system llyfrgelloedd newydd ar gyfer y llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus fel bod defnyddwyr/darllenwyr llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus, gyda chymorth y llyfrgell genedlaethol, yn medru cael y wybodaeth a chatalog, ac yn y blaen, o ddeunyddiau electronig ac eraill yn ddirwystr mewn system hollol gyson ar draws Cymru. Mae hynna'n grêt. Ac rŷm ni'n mynd i gario ymlaen gyda'r gwaith yna, ond mae'r capasiti sydd gyda ni ar gyfer y prosiect arbennig yna wedi cael ei effeithio gan y toriad arbennig sydd wedi digwydd. 

Yn yr un modd, rŷm ni'n cario ymlaen gydag archifau. Rŷm ni'n gweithio'n agos iawn gydag archifau. Rŷm ni wedi lleoli corneli clip yr archif ddarlledu mewn sawl archifdy lleol. Roeddwn i i fyny yng Nghaernarfon yn ystod yr haf, yn agor cornel clip Caernarfon. Mae'r gwaith hwnnw yn talu ar ei ganfed, oherwydd mae'n swyddog ymgysylltu ni, sydd yn gweithio ar draws y gogledd, yn gweithio gydag archifau Conwy, yn gweithio gydag archifau Gwynedd ac eraill, ac yn estyn allan i'r gymuned, yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth gyda, er enghraifft, elusennau sydd yn cynorthwyo pobl ifanc digartref, banciau bwyd ac yn y blaen, ar draws y gogledd. Mae hynny'n waith mewn partneriaeth sydd yn dod, ac wedi dod, yn rhywbeth greddfol; mae'n ail natur inni nawr fel llyfrgell, yn y ffordd ŷn ni'n gweithredu.

Dwi wedi sôn ychydig bach am y sector treftadaeth; rŷn ni'n gwneud lot gydag Amgueddfa Cymru, y comisiwn a Cadw, yn naturiol, fel byddech chi'n ei ddisgwyl. Tu allan i Gymru, wedyn, mae yna sgôp enfawr, dwi'n credu, i ddatblygu, yn enwedig yr ochr wirfoddoli a'r potensial ar gyfer denu rhoddion, yn ogystal. Buodd rhai swyddogion allan yng Ngŵyl Cymru Gogledd America—

I'll start with the sector—public libraries, research libraries, and also county and regional archives. We have a very close relationship, and the Welsh Government funds and invests in work in the national library to support public libraries—introducing one new library system for those public libraries so that users and readers in the public libraries have the support of the national library, and can access information and the catalogue of electronic and other materials without any barriers in a completely consistent system across Wales. That is great. We're going to continue that work. However, the capacity that we have for that particular project has been affected by the particular cuts that have happened. 

In the same way, we're carrying on with the archives. We are working very closely with archives. We've located the broadcast archive's clip corners in several archives locally. I was up in Caernarfon during the summer, opening a clip corner in Caernarfon. That work has paid dividends, because our outreach officer, who works across north Wales, works with the Conwy archives, the archives in Gwynedd, and others, and reaches out to those communities and works in partnership with, for example, charities that support homeless young people, foodbanks and so on, all across north Wales. That is work that's done in partnership that has become, and is becoming, something instinctive; it's second nature to us now as a library in terms of the way that we act.

I've spoken a bit about the heritage sector; we do a lot with Amgueddfa Cymru, the comission and Cadw, as you would expect. Beyond Wales, then, there is enormous scope, I think, for us to develop, especially the volunteering side and the potential for attracting donations too. Some officials were out in the North American Festival of Wales—

11:10

Gwelais i, ie, gyda'r ddeiseb.

Yes, I saw that, with the petition. 

Ie. Ac mae'r ddeiseb, wrth gwrs, yn llwyfan wych ar gyfer siarad gyda'r gynulleidfa, y diaspora, y bobl o dras Cymreig—

Yes. That petition, of course, is a great stage for speaking with audiences, the diaspora—

Gaf i dy stopio di fanno, Rhodri? Gwelais i, dwi'n credu, ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol, y gwaith dŷch chi wedi bod yn ei wneud yng Ngogledd America, ac mae hynny yn wych o beth—a dwi'n gobeithio eich bod chi'n cadw mewn cysylltiad â swyddfa Llywodraeth Cymru tra'ch bod chi'n ei wneud. Mae yna lot fawr o ddiaspora Cymreig fanno a fuasai â diddordeb yn hynny. Oes yna ffordd i chi feithrin perthynas gyda'r bobl yna, defnyddio swyddfa Llywodraeth Cymru, er enghraifft, i sicrhau efallai grantiau, efallai cyllideb o'r diaspora sydd gyda ni, wrth sôn am Ogledd America yn yr enghraifft benodol yma?

May I stop you there, Rhodri? Because I saw, I think, on social media, the work that you've been doing in North America, and I think that's fantastic, it's excellent—and I hope that you will keep in touch with the Welsh Government office in North America when you do that. But there is a huge Welsh diaspora there that would have had interest in that work. Is there a way for you to foster those relationships with those people, using the Welsh Government office, for example, to ensure, perhaps, that grants are received and perhaps funding from the diaspora that we have, speaking specifically about North America in that example?

Oes, yn sicr. Daeth y tîm yn ôl o NAFOW, o'r ŵyl yng Ngogledd America gyda 200 o unigolion wedi cofrestru diddordeb i gadw mewn cysylltiad, i ddod, efallai, yn wirfoddolwyr fyddai'n gallu cyfrannu at prosiectau real, megis trawsgrifio rhannau o'r ddeiseb heddwch, a thrawsgrifio pethau eraill inni yn ogystal, ond wedyn datblygu'r berthynas yna i fod, wedyn, yn gefnogwyr, yn noddwyr, yn rhoddwyr, oherwydd ŷn ni'n gwybod taw dyna ydy'r diwylliant elusennol, philanthropic yn America—ŷn ni'n deall hynna. Rŷn ni'n dysgu ac rŷn ni'n mynd i ddatblygu'r cysylltiadau. Mae yna brosiect gallaf sôn amdano fe—efallai gwnaf gadw'r powdr dipyn bach yn sychach, os wyt ti, Ashok, eisiau dod mewn.

Yes, certainly. The team came back from NAFOW, from that festival in North America, with 200 individuals who'd registered their interest to keep in contact, to perhaps become volunteers that would be able to contribute to real projects, for example, transcribing parts of the peace petition and transcribing other things for us too, but then developing that relationship to then become supporters, donors, sponsors, because we know that that's the charitable and philanthropic culture in America—we understand that. We are learning and we're going to develop those connections. There's a project that I can talk about—maybe I'll keep the powder a bit drier, if you want to come in on that, Ashok.

Mae hwn wedi bod yn rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei ystyried ers cwpl o flynyddoedd, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna gap enfawr yn y farchnad o ran diaspora. Ond mae'n rhaid inni fod yn siŵr bod ein hadnoddau ni nôl yn Aberystwyth neu ble bynnag yn rhoi mynediad at archif bendant—nid jest elfen o'r sensws, ond bod llwyth o archif arall ar gael. Achos y peth am y farchnad hanes teuluol yn America yw bod rhai gwledydd—Iwerddon, hyd yn oed yr Alban—lot bellach lawr y ffordd o ran beth sydd ar gael. So, rŷn ni wedi bod yn siarad gydag Iwerddon yn ddiweddar; mae Rhodri wedi cael cyfarfod gyda llyfrgell Iwerddon yn ddiweddar am eu gwaith nhw i gysylltu â'r diaspora a defnyddio'r archif i roi mynediad i bobl ffeindio mas mwy am hanes. Ond eto, ar y foment, does gennym ni ddim capasiti. Hefyd, mae'n her, o ran digidol, i fod yn siŵr bod ein casgliadau ni mewn ffordd syml i bobl ymchwilio a mynd trwy a trio ffeindio yr elfen yna.

This is something that we've been considering for some years now, and I think there is a huge gap in the market in terms of the diaspora. But we have to be sure that our resources are there back in Aberystwyth or wherever else, in terms of access to the archive, not just in terms of the census but also a whole host of other archives. We need to ensure that those resources are available. Because the thing about the family history market in North America is that there are some nations, such as Scotland and Ireland, who are far further along the path in that regard. We've had conversations with Ireland recently; Rhodri had a conversation with the National Library of Ireland recently, about the work they've been doing to engage with the diaspora and use the archive to provide people with access to find out more about their own personal history. But at the moment, we don't have the capacity to do that. It's also a challenge in terms of the digital aspect, to ensure that our collection is searchable so that people can find those stories.

Does gyda chi ddim y capasiti, ond—

You don't have the capacity, but—

—sori—chi ydy'r gronfa wybodaeth hanesyddol bwysicaf yn y wlad, i ryw raddau, ac felly mae gyda chi'r gallu i gyfrannu rhywbeth. Ac roeddech chi'n sôn am y diaspora yn yr achos yma, ond mae yna gyfraniad mwy cyfoethog y mae'n bosibl ei wneud, a buaswn i'n meddwl bod yna dipyn bach o alw ar gyfer hynnny. So, dŷn ni ddim jest yn sôn am gapasiti ond yn sôn am fuddsoddiad, ac mi fuaswn i'n disgwyl i Lywodraeth Cymru allu eich cefnogi chi i wneud hynny.

—sorry—but you're the most important source of historical information in the country, to a certain extent, and so you do have the ability to contribute something. You mention the diaspora there in this case, but there is a richer contribution that would be possible to make, and I would think that there's a little bit of demand for that. So, we're not just talking about capacity but we're talking about investment, and I would expect that the Government would be able to support you to do that.

11:15

Diolch am hynna. Dwi’n meddwl bod Heledd eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn hefyd.  

Thank you for that. I think Heledd wants to come in on that.   

Jest o ran yr elfen cynhyrchu incwm, yn amlwg rydych chi wedi sôn lot fawr ynglŷn â chapasiti. Faint o her ydy o i fod yn tyfu incwm oherwydd y toriadau? Beth ydy’r cyfyngiadau oherwydd hynny? A hefyd, roeddech chi’n sôn am beth rydych chi'n methu â gwneud o ran y gwaith ymgysylltu. Yn amlwg, mae lot o grantiau allanol rŵan yn ddibynnol ar y gwaith ymgysylltu, a thystiolaeth o fod yn gwneud y gwaith hwnnw. Roeddech chi’n nodi colli tri o aelodau staff, dwi’n meddwl, o’r adran addysg ac ymgysylltu, sydd yn dîm bach iawn beth bynnag. Sut ydych chi, felly, yn gallu cael y balans ar y funud rhwng codi incwm a'r heriau rydych chi’n eu hwynebu? Ac fel roedd Alun yn ei ddweud, pa mor agored ydy Llywodraeth Cymru i ddeall effaith y toriadau arnoch chi’n gallu cynhyrchu incwm hefyd?

Just in terms of the income generation side, you spoke quite a bit about capacity there, but how much of a challenge is it to grow the income because of these cuts? What are the limitations that have come because of that? Also, you mentioned what you can’t do in terms of that engagement work. Obviously, there are a lot of external grants now that are dependent on engagement work, and evidence of doing that work. You mentioned losing three members of staff, I think, from the education and engagement department, which is a very small team anyway. So, how can you get the balance at the moment in terms of raising income and the challenges that you’re facing? As Alun said, how open or prepared is the Government to understand the effects of these cuts on you being able to generate income too?

Mae sawl prosiect wedi bod yn digwydd, diolch i fuddsoddiad dros ddwy flynedd, i greu a chryfhau tîm ymgysylltu, addysg a chodi arian y llyfrgell. Y perygl, o’m rhan i, yw colli momentwm, yn fwy na diflannu. Mae’r momentwm wedi’i adeiladu i’r fath raddau ein bod ni wedi cael yr haf prysuraf yn y llyfrgell ers 2011. Rŷn ni wedi cael lefelau ymwelwyr 25 y cant yn uwch am yr un cyfnod, o gymharu â 2019. Mae llwyddiant hynny yn seiliedig ar nid yn unig blockbuster fel y Canaletto yn dod fel canolbwynt i arddangosfa—roedd y rhan fwyaf ohono fe o’n casgliad ni—ond mae hefyd yn deillio o ymgysylltu y tu allan i Aberystwyth mewn cymunedau. Mae e hefyd yn deillio o’r ffaith bod cyfleusterau mwy croesawgar ar gyfer teuluoedd, ystafell i blant tair i saith oed. Mae’r holl beth yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd, gyda phrosiectau sydd yn denu grwpiau sydd wedi cael eu tangynrychioli yn ein gwaith ni yn y gorffennol, ond rŷn ni’n gwneud ymdrech i fynd y filltir ychwanegol.

Colli momentwm yw’r risg wedyn, yn hytrach na gweld diflannu o ran y pwyslais. Byddai hynny yn drueni ofnadwy, oherwydd mae’r cyfraniad mae’r gwaith yna yn ei wneud o ran llesiant y grwpiau sydd yn ymgysylltu gyda ni, boed yn ysgolion o Flaenau Gwent, neu o unrhyw ran o’r wlad—. Mae nhw’n teimlo bod y gwaith yn berthnasol iddyn nhw, ei fod e’n berthnasol i’r cwricwlwm, ei fod e’n berthnasol o ran uchelgais a chyflogadwyedd y disgyblion. Ac mae hynna wedi bod yn neges bwerus i ni hefyd. Roeddwn i’n trafod hyn gyda phrif weithredwr S4C bore ddoe, o ran sut roedd—

Several projects have been undertaken, thanks to an investment over two years, to create and strengthen the engagement, education and fundraising team. The risk, from my point of view, is the loss of momentum, rather than that work disappearing entirely, because the momentum has built to such a degree that we’ve had the busiest summer in the library since 2011, and we’ve reached visitor levels 25 per cent higher than we had in the same period as compared to 2019. And the success of that is based not just in terms of a blockbuster such as the Canaletto arriving as the centrepiece of an exhibition that was based primarily on our collection, but it also emanates from engagement outside Aberystwyth in communities. It also emanates from the fact that we have more welcoming facilities for families, a room for children between three and seven years of age. All of that works together with projects that attract groups that have been underrepresented in our work in the past, but we’ve made that effort to go that extra mile to reach them.

So, it’s a loss of momentum that’s the risk, rather than seeing a disappearing of that emphasis. And that would be a great shame, wouldn’t it, because the contribution that that work does in terms of the well-being of those groups that engage with us, be they schools from Blaenau Gwent, or from any other part of Wales—. They feel that the work is relevant to them, that it’s relevant to the curriculum, that it’s relevant in terms of ambition and employability of those pupils. And that’s been a very powerful message for us too. I was discussing this with the chief executive of S4C yesterday, on how—

Yn benodol, sori, os caf i, o ran yr incwm, felly—. Rydych chi’n sôn ynglŷn â cholli momentwm. Oes yna risg ar y funud eich bod chi ddim chwaith yn gallu cynhyrchu’r incwm a’r potensial yna fel eich bod chi ddim mor ddibynnol ar grantiau gan y Llywodraeth?

Specifically, if I may, in terms of the income—. You’re talking about losing momentum. Is there a risk at the moment that you won’t be able to generate the income and that potential so that you’re not so dependent on grants from the Government?

Os gallaf ofyn am ateb eithaf byr, achos mae'n rhaid i ni symud ymlaen. 

If I could have a succinct answer, because we need to move on. 

Yn fyr iawn, rŷn ni wedi setio lan tîm bach codi arian, wrth gwrs, ond, ar y foment, mae hwnna’n fuddsoddiad. Does dim byd wedi dod nôl atyn nhw; mae’n cymryd pum mlynedd, lan at ddegawd, i’r math yna o fuddsoddiad ddod nôl. Wrth gwrs, os bydd toriadau’n dod, bydd rhaid i ni edrych ar bob un adran.

Very quickly, it’s important that we raise funds, of course. At the moment, that’s an investment. It takes five years, up to 10 years, for that investment to pay dividends. So, of course, if we have a cut, then that will impact every department.

Mae yna geisiadau grant rhif y gwlith wedi mynd mewn drwy’r tîm bach ers eu sefydlu nhw flwyddyn, 18 mis yn ôl. Felly, mae hynny’n dangos allbwn, ond efallai dŷn ni ddim yn siŵr o’r canlyniad eto. Hefyd, beth rŷn ni wedi gweld yw llwyddiant denu’r ymwelwyr i Aberystwyth. Mae e’n talu ar ei ganfed o safbwynt incwm i mewn i’r caffi a’r siop, ac felly mae canlyniadau o hynny. Dyw e ddim yn cyfrannu yn sylweddol at y gwaelodlin, na. Y gwaith rhoddion, dwi’n credu, mewn cyfnod o flynyddoedd, fydd yn gwneud cyfraniad sylweddol iawn.

There are many grant applications that have gone in through the small team that we have since that was set up 18 months or a year ago. So, that does show output, but maybe we’re not sure what the results of that are yet. Also, what we have seen is success in attracting visitors to Aberystwyth. It is paying dividends from the point of view of income into the café and the shop, and, therefore, there are results from that. It doesn’t contribute very significantly to the bottom line. The donation work, I think, over a period of years, is what will make a very significant contribution.

Diolch am hynna. Mae gan Laura—. O, mae'n flin gen i, Ashok, achos amser, ydych chi'n meindio os ŷn ni'n symud ymlaen?

Thank you for that. Laura has—. Oh, I'm sorry, Ashok, because of time, do you mind if we move on?

Na, dwi ddim yn meindio. 

No, I don't mind. 

Mae gan Laura gwestiwn atodol. 

Laura has a question. 

Yes, it’s actually a question—. I can hear myself echoing, sorry. It was actually a question I was going to ask later, but I think I just want to ask it now. What’s the impact of the additional moneys that you’ve received from the Welsh Government this September? What impact has that had on the library and your forward work now?

11:20

Mae'r cyllid hwnnw yn rhywbeth rŷn ni'n ei groesawu. Mae e'n mynd i ddau gyfeiriad, a £725,00 oedd y cyfanswm. Mae £0.5 miliwn yn mynd tuag at gynorthwyo gyda dyled yn y cynllun pensiwn. Mae hynny'n golygu, o leihau y ddyled honno, fod y strwythur staffio yn well o ran ein gallu i fedru fforddio cynnal y strwythur staffio i'r dyfodol, yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw o leiaf. A hefyd £225,000 i mewn i brosiectau isadeiledd technoleg gwybodaeth a digido ein hystad ni o ran y gallu i storio yn ddiogel a'n gwneud ein hunain yn fwy gwydn.

That funding is something that we welcome. It's going to go in two directions, and we received £725,000 in total. Half a million is going towards supporting the debt in the pension scheme. That means, in decreasing that debt level, that the staffing structure is better in terms of our ability to afford to sustain and maintain the staffing structure for the future, during that time at least. And also £225,000 that will go into IT infrastructure projects and digitising our estate in terms of the ability to have safe storage and to make ourselves more resilient.

Hapus? Ocê. Gwnawn ni symud at Carolyn.

Happy? Okay. We will move to Carolyn.

On my visit, what struck me is that it's not just a library of books; it's a library of things—so many maps, but the paintings as well. I saw the Canaletto exhibition. I was able to see a painting of Castell Dinas Brân in 1770, and Parys mountain. I was able to pretend to be a weatherperson and listen to different programmes going back over the years. There is so much there that I didn't know about, and it was amazing. I wanted to say that when the schoolchildren were here, because there is absolutely something for everybody.

My question to you, though, is just about Welsh Government interventions again. Have you had to amend your remit in the light of reduced funding from the Welsh Government? I actually saw an area as well where—. I know you've got to expand as well, because you've got more coming in. There was an area, as well—an open space area, like a cloisters—where you're hoping to expand, as well, the infrastructure, but I wasn't sure where that funding was coming from. 

Diolch yn fawr. Ydy, mae'r gwaith a sut rŷn ni'n medru cysylltu rhwng y gwahanol gasgliadau—. Mae'r archif ddarlledu yn enghraifft hyfryd, oherwydd mae gyda ni ganrif o ddeunydd ffilm a fideo a sain a phob math o recordiadau wedi dod drwy ITV, drwy'r BBC, S4C ac yn y blaen, a sut mae'r rheini yn cyfoethogi prosiectau ar lawr gwlad mewn cymunedau. Roeddwn i efallai wedi disgrifio o'r blaen sut roedd plant Ysgol Gynradd Sgeti wedi cael defnydd o archif straeon o 1969 o brotestiadau yn erbyn apartheid, pan oedd tîm rygbi De Affrica wedi ymweld, a sut oedd rhannu eraill o'r archif—celf Paul Peter Piech, yn ogystal â llythyron bygwth wnaeth Peter Hain dderbyn gan bobl yn yr ardal—wedi bywiogi y stori i blant yr ysgol yna i greu, wedyn, adnodd digidol sydd nawr ar gael ar gyfer pob ysgol. Felly, mae adeiladu haenau o stori yn rhywbeth rŷn ni'n gallu gwneud yn wych, dwi'n meddwl, yn y llyfrgell. Mae yna brosiect ar fin digwydd—rŷn ni wedi cael caniatâd cynllunio nawr—ar gyfer yr atriwm. Felly, hwn ydy'r infill lle mae gofod tu mewn i'r adeilad lle gallwn ni adeiladu storfa newydd, ac mae hynny yn mynd i roi i ni gapasiti storio ar gyfer, gobeithio, 10 mlynedd i'r dyfodol. Diolch.

Thank you very much. The work and how we can create links between the different collections—. The broadcast archive is a lovely example, because we have a century of film and video and sound material, and all kinds of recordings that have come to us from ITV, BBC, S4C and so on, and how those enrich projects on the ground in communities. I described previously how the children of Sketty Primary School were able to use an archive of stories from 1969 about protests against apartheid, when the South Africa rugby team were visiting here, and how other parts of the archive—Paul Peter Piech's art, as well as the threatening letters that Peter Hain received from people in the area—had enlivened the story for the children at that particular school, to be able to then create a digital resource that is now available for every school. So, building levels of a story is something that we can do in a great way, I think, in the library. There is a project about to happen—we've had planning permission granted now—for the atrium. So, this is the infill where there is a space within the building where we can build a new storage area, and that is going to give us increased storage capacity for, hopefully, 10 years into the future. Thank you.

Previously, it was mentioned that there has not been much engagement with the Welsh Government. I know that Jane Hutt, the Minister, was visiting the week after me. Has engagement increased now with the Welsh Government? And also what changes would you like to see with the Welsh Government's budget process? Would that be helpful? Just generally about that.

Mae yna ddau beth o ran ymateb. Dwi'n gwybod bod yr ymgysylltu rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru, a'r bwrdd yn ogystal—. Mae hynny'n rhan bwysig iawn. Felly, mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn bresennol yn ein cyfarfodydd bwrdd, ac wedi bod bob amser dwi wedi bod yn y cyfarfodydd hynny. Dwi'n teimlo bod yna lefel dda iawn o ymgysylltiad gyda'r swyddogion a gyda'r Gweinidogion ac Aelodau Senedd Cymru. Rŷn ni'n derbyn llawer o ymweliadau. Rŷn ni'n rhoi'r un sioe i bawb. Rŷn ni'n dod â Dr Maredudd ap Huw allan o'r cefndir, ac mae e'n rhannu cyfrinachau'r llyfrgell, ac mae sawl un o aelodau eraill y tîm yn hapus iawn i dderbyn ymweliadau—maen nhw'n edrych yn hapus iawn; efallai eu bod nhw'n cael llond bol ohonom ni weithiau yn galw ac yn tarfu ar eu gwaith, y tim cadwraeth yn enwedig. Mae pawb yn dod i mewn i'r ardal gadwraeth ac maen nhw'n dangos i ymwelwyr y gwaith atgyweirio memrwn, ailadeiladu llawysgrifau, sut maen nhw'n rhoi'r inc sy'n erydu'r testun ac yn torri'r casgliad—sut maen nhw'n rhoi bath i'r inc yma, sut mae hwnna'n golchi, yn glanhau ac yn diogelu'r llawysgrifau prin a bregus iawn yma. Mae e fel dewiniaeth; mae'n hollol anhygoel beth maen nhw'n ei wneud. Ac mae pawb yn gadael yna wedi'u syfrdanu pa mor wych ydy'r sgiliau sydd gennym ni yn y llyfrgell. Felly, mae'r lefel yna o ymgysylltu, dwi'n meddwl, yn dda.

Beth rydyn ni eisiau ei weld, efallai, i'r dyfodol yw parhau â'r lefel o ymgysylltu, ond efallai y newid yr hoffwn ni ei weld yw'r Llywodraeth yn medru bod tipyn bach yn fwy hyblyg gyda ni o ran y defnydd o'r grant cymorth. Ar hyn o bryd, dydyn ni ddim yn gallu cario drosodd mwy na 2 y cant o gyfanswm grant cymorth Llywodraeth Cymru. A gan fod cyllid yn dod i mewn yn ystod y flwyddyn, weithiau, pan fydd cyfleoedd yn codi, mae hwnna'n ei wneud e bach yn fwy anodd wedyn, achos mae'n rhaid ei wario fe i gyd cyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol. Pe bai hyblygrwydd i gario drosodd, byddai hynny o gymorth.

There are two things in response. I know that the engagement between the Welsh Government, and the board—. That's also an important part. So, Welsh Government officials are present in our board meetings, and have been every time that I have attended those meetings. I feel that there is a very good level of engagement with the officials and with the Ministers and with the Members of the Welsh Parliament. We receive many visits. We provide everyone with the same experience. We bring Dr Maredudd ap Huw out of the background, and he shares the secrets of the library, and several other members of the team are very happy to receive visitors as well—they look very happy, perhaps they're fed up of us constantly calling on them and disrupting their work, especially the conservation team. Everyone comes into the conservation area and they show the visitors the parchment repair work, the reconstruction of the manuscripts, how they treat the ink that erodes the text and ruins the collection—how they bathe the ink, and how they clean the manuscripts and safeguard them, these very vulnerable, fragile manuscripts. It's like some sort of witchcraft; it's incredible what they do. On leaving, everyone is amazed at the wonderful skills that we have in the library. So, that level of engagement, I think, is excellent.

What we are hoping to see for the future is to continue with that level of engagement, but perhaps the change that we would like to see is the Government being a little more flexible with us in terms of the use of the support grant. At the moment, we can't carry over more than 2 per cent of the total support grant that we receive from the Welsh Government. And as funding is received in year, sometimes, when opportunities arise, that makes it slightly more difficult then, because you have to spend it all before the end of the financial year. If there were to be flexibility to carry that over, that would be of support.

11:25

Pwynt arall o ran cysylltu â'r Llywodraeth: wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni nawr Gabinet newydd, ac rydyn ni'n hapus i weld ein sector ni yn eistedd gyda sgiliau, er enghraifft. Fel mae Rhodri newydd sôn, mae yna lot o sgiliau lle rydyn ni'n dechrau poeni ychydig bach ond hefyd yn ei weld e fel cyfle, efallai, i ddatblygu sgiliau newydd ymysg pobl ifanc, sy'n rili bwysig i Gymru. Rydyn ni eisiau cadw'r math yna o sgiliau. So, mae yna opsiynau i ddechrau meddwl am y tymor byr o ran sut ydyn ni'n gallu denu pobl ifanc i ddatblygu sgiliau sy'n mynd gyda'r sector, achos rydyn ni'n colli pobl sydd wedi bod yna ers chwarter canrif neu 30 mlynedd, weithiau. Ond eto, dydy hwn ddim yn rhywbeth rydyn ni wedi ei ystyried o'r blaen, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni ei ystyried e nawr. Ond eto, mae'r berthynas rhwng rhywun sy'n edrych ar ôl sgiliau a'n sector ni yn bwysig. So, byddwn ni'n gwahodd y Gweinidog newydd ar gyfer sgiliau a diwylliant yn fuan.

Another point in terms of engaging with the Government: of course, we now have a new Cabinet, and we're happy to see our sector sitting with skills, for example. As Rhodri just mentioned, there are a lot of skills where we're starting to get a bit worried, but we're also seeing it as an opportunity, perhaps, to develop new skills in young people, which is really important to Wales. We want to retain those kinds of skills. So, there are options to start thinking about the short term in terms of how we can attract young people to develop skills that go along with the sector, because we've been losing people who have been there for 30 years, or a quarter of a century. But again, this isn't something that we've considered before, but I think we need to consider that now. But again, a relationship between someone looking after skills and our sector is important. So, we will invite the new Minister for culture and skills to visit us soon.

Is there anything else that Welsh Government could do, besides funding, to help you?

Wel, mae'r Llywodraeth wedi bod mewn cysylltiad yn ddiweddar, yn gofyn y cwestiwn i ni ac i gyrff hyd braich eraill, pa fath o gysylltiadau sydd gyda ni y tu allan i'n teulu, os liciwch chi, ein sector ni, a hefyd pa gysylltiadau sydd gennym ni mewn adrannau eraill o'r Llywodraeth y tu allan i'r uned noddi diwylliant. A'r syniad ydy bod swyddogion y Llywodraeth yn barod i'n cynorthwyo ni i ddatblygu cysylltiadau lle mae eisiau. Dwi'n croesawu'r cyfle yna, oherwydd rŷn ni nawr yn yr un portffolio â sgiliau, sydd yn gwestiwn tyngedfennol a sylfaenol i ni fel corff ac fel sector, a hefyd gallu cydgysylltu ag elfennau o'r diwydiannau creadigol a hefyd polisi technoleg gwybodaeth ddigidol, y sgôp sydd yna i ddatblygu deallusrwydd artiffisial—peryglon hynny, risgiau hynny, ond y cyfleoedd hynny a sut ŷn ni'n gallu bod—. Achos arbenigwyr data, arbenigwyr gwybodaeth ŷn ni, wedi'r cyfan, arbenigwyr digidol, felly dwi'n credu y gallwn ni ddod â llawer i'r bwrdd, pan fydd Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau symud ymlaen o ran arloesedd.

Ac mae cyfiawnder cymdeithasol wedi bod gyda ni, am gyfnod byr, ym mhortffolio'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Efallai bod hynny wedi newid ychydig, ond mae eto yn allweddol i'r gwaith rŷn ni'n ei wneud i drio hybu amrywedd. Rydyn ni wedi sôn tipyn am ymgysylltu allanol a mynd allan i gymunedau, a dod â chymunedau atom ni, a dŷn ni ddim eisiau gweld colli'r momentwm hynny—rŷn ni eisiau hybu amrywedd.

Well, the Government has been in touch recently, asking us the question and asking the other arm's-length bodies the same question, in terms of what links and relationships we have outside our family, if you will, outside of our sector, and what links we have with other Government departments outside of the culture sponsorship department. And the idea is that Government officials are prepared to help us to forge those links where they are needed. I welcome that opportunity, because we are now part of the same portfolio as skills, which is a crucial question for us as a body and as a sector, and also the ability to co-ordinate with elements of the creative industries and also IT digital policy, the scope to develop artificial intelligence—the risks, the dangers of that, but also the opportunities that that provides and how we can be—. Because we are data experts, information experts, after all. We're digital experts. So, I think that we can bring a great deal to the table in that regard, when the Welsh Government wants to make progress in terms of innovation.

And also social justice has been with us, for a short period of time, as part of the Cabinet Secretary's portfolio. Perhaps that's changed a little now, but again that's a key part of the work that we're doing to try to promote diversity. We've spoken quite a bit about external engagement and going out to communities, and bringing communities to us, and we don't want to lose that momentum—we want to promote diversity.

11:30

Peth arall wrth gwrs yw addysg. Wrth gwrs mae yna adnoddau sydd gyda ni sydd yn cyd-fynd yn berffaith gyda'r Cwricwlwm i Gymru, gyda'r cymwysterau sydd yn newid o gwmpas 14 i 16, er enghraifft. Rŷn ni eisiau bod yn rhan o hwnna gydag adnoddau ar gyfer ysgolion, ond weithiau mae'n anodd i dimau bychain i arwain y ffordd o fewn bwystfil eithaf mawr fel y Llywodraeth, so, rŷn ni angen iddyn nhw, fel y mae Rhodri newydd ei ddweud, i'n gwerthu ni i adrannau eraill. A dwi'n meddwl y bydd hynny'n ein helpu ni, nid jest gydag incwm, ond gyda'n dylanwad a'n heffaith ni o ran ein gwaith ni.

Another thing of course is education. Of course we have resources that fit perfectly with the Curriculum for Wales and with the qualifications that are now changing relating to 14 to 16, for example. We want to be part of that with resources for schools, but sometimes it can be difficult for small teams to lead the way within large beasts like the Government, so, we need them, as Rhodri said, to sell us to other departments. And I think that will help us greatly, not just with income, but with our influence and our impact in terms of the work that we're doing.

Diolch am hwnna. Efallai byddwn ni'n gorfod rhedeg drosodd ychydig o funudau, efallai i chwarter i. A fyddai hynna'n iawn gyda chi os ydyn ni'n rhedeg yn hwyr? Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Laura.

Thank you for that. Maybe we'll have to run over time just by a few minutes, maybe to quarter to. Would that be okay with you, if that were to happen? Thank you for that. We'll move to Laura.

If I may, Chair, just following on from what you just said, I was just wondering: do you think that schools use your resources enough at the moment?

We certainly changed our focus in terms of schools engagement post COVID and reopening. Rhodri mentioned the broadcast archive. That broadcast archive has got a whole education space attached to it. So, we've got a lot more schools coming in, which is great. But also, the staff are able to work with schools digitally. So, often, there's a doubling up, isn't there, Rhodri? Often, there's a school group present and there's another school group that is part of the same educational session, but down the line. And I think that has really helped us to add numbers to our educational outreach, but we need to—. If I had my way, I would basically say that I would want local authorities right across Wales to make sure that, literally, once a term there was a school bus from both secondary level and primary level being sent to the national library and we would cater for that, and we would give them stuff that was relevant to their location, to their cynefin, and I think it would really help significantly with education, both pre-11 and post-11. But at the moment, we don't have the money to do that, we don't have the capacity to do that, but we'd love to do that.

Well, it seems to be a very good aim and all about that joined-up thinking we keep talking about, isn't it? In terms of the Welsh Government's draft culture priorities that were consulted on over the summer, to what extent do you think those have helped cultural bodies to mitigate the impact of reduced funding?

Wel, dŷn ni wedi ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad yn croesawu’n fras yr holl ddatganiadau sydd yn y blaenoriaethau diwylliant. Dwi'n teimlo bod yna un man lle roeddem ni'n awyddus fel sefydliad i weld efallai ailedrych ar y darn hynny ac efallai ehangu rhywfaint ar yr uchelgais, sef yr ochr ddigidol. Roeddem yn teimlo bod hynny'n rhywbeth a allai fod yn gryfach yn y datganiad blaenoriaethau diwylliant. Ond, drwyddi draw, rŷn ni'n croesawu ac yn gefnogol dros ben fel sefydliad i’r egwyddorion o ran gwneud diwylliant yn fater mwy democrataidd, democrateiddio diwylliant i holl bobl Cymru a holl gymunedau Cymru: hygyrchedd diwylliant i bawb, y lles sydd yn dod o brofiadau diwylliannol, y sylw hefyd i'n cyfrifoldebau ni i fod yn gwarchod ac yn datblygu mynediad i’r casgliadau, a’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen yn y sector. Felly, drwyddi draw rŷn ni'n gefnogol iawn i'r datganiad.

Well, we have responded to the consultation, welcoming broadly all of the statements that are in the priorities for culture. I feel as if there is one area where we were keen as an institution to re-examine that part and maybe expand it a little bit in terms of ambition, and that was the digital aspect. We felt that that was perhaps something that could be stronger in the priorities for culture statement. But, overall, we do welcome and are very supportive as an institution of the principles in terms of making culture a more democratic thing, democratising culture for all of the people of Wales and all of the communities in Wales too: the accessibility of culture to everyone, the well-being that comes from cultural experiences, the attention that was paid as well to our responsibilities to protect and to develop access to the collections, and the skills that are needed in the sector. So, overall, in general, we're very supportive of the statement.

Okay, thank you. We're going to now move on to the national contemporary art gallery, I think. So, what is the current status of the library's involvement in the national contemporary art gallery project, please?

Dŷn ni wedi bod yn bartneriaid pwysig gyda'r cyngor celfyddydau a hefyd Amgueddfa Cymru o'r cychwyn. Mae ein rôl ni yn ddeublyg, felly: dŷn ni wedi bod yn digido gweithiau celf—cyfanswm o ryw 7,000, dwi'n credu, o weithiau celf i fod ar gael ar gyfer mynd ar wefan yr oriel gelf newydd. Yn ogystal â darparu capasiti, rŷn ni wedi cael cyllid i allu cyflogi rhywun i fod yn gyfrifol am hwyluso benthyciadau, ac felly mae cefnogi’r model wedi gwasgaru hynny, gyda’r capasiti penodol hwnnw sydd yn hwyluso benthyciadau allan o gasgliadau’r llyfrgell yn rhan allweddol o'r prosiect o ran y llyfrgell.

We have been important partners with the arts council and Amgueddfa Cymru from the outset. Our role is twofold, therefore: we have been digitising artworks—a total of around 7,000, I believe, of artworks to be available for access on the new art gallery website. As well as providing capacity, we've had funding to be able to employ somebody to be responsible for facilitating loans, and so supporting the model has distributed that, with that specific capacity that facilitates loans from the library’s collections being a vital part of the project in terms of the library’s contribution.

11:35

Thank you. So, in terms of funding, where’s the money coming from? How much is coming from the national library? How much is coming directly from Welsh Government, please?

Mae'r adnoddau i gefnogi’r prosiect yn dod o Lywodraeth Cymru. 

The resources to support the project come from Welsh Government.

Dŷn ni ddim yn cyfrannu. Rŷn ni'n rhan o’r prosiect, ond dŷn ni ddim yn cyfrannu unrhyw beth at y prosiect heblaw am amser staff.

We don’t contribute. We’re part of the project, but we don’t contribute anything to the project apart from staff time.

Dwi'n meddwl roedd Heledd eisiau dod i mewn yn gyntaf ar hyn.

I believe that Heledd wanted to come in first on this.

Yn gofyn yr un cwestiwn, siŵr o fod.

Asking the same question, probably.

Faint ydy Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyfrannu?

How much is the Welsh Government contributing?

Wel, mae gwerth cyflog y swyddog sydd yn hwyluso'r benthyciadau, a rhai degau o filoedd ar gyfer costau y digido.

Well, the value of the salary of the official who facilitates the loans, and then some tens of thousands of pounds for the digitalisation costs.

A gaf i ofyn, felly, bellach, o ran—? Rydych yn sôn am amser staff; yn amlwg, mi fyddwch chi wedi cyfrifo faint o amser staff rydych chi'n ymroi at hynny. Mae’n rhaid bod hwnna'n fuddsoddiad hefyd gennych chi.

May I ask, therefore, further to that—? You talk about staff time; you will obviously have calculated the amount of staff time that you're giving to that. That must also be an investment from you.

Ydy. Mae yna un bach gyda ni sydd yn gofalu am arddangosfeydd, felly mae rhan o'u hamser nhw yn mynd i gefnogi trefniadau y benthyciadau fydd yn digwydd maes o law, ac mae rhan o'r capasiti sydd gyda ni ar gyfer digido unrhyw gyfrwng ac i reoli'r gwaith hwnnw, felly mae rhan o hynny yn gyfraniad mewn da.

Yes. We do have one small one that takes care of exhibitions, so part of their time goes to supporting the arrangements for the loans that will happen soon, and part of the capacity that we have for the digitalisation of any media and managing that work, so part of that is a contribution in kind.

Ond hefyd os ŷch chi'n meddwl am—. Ers i’r syniad godi ar gyfer yr oriel, wrth gwrs, mae ein ffocws ni gyda lot o'n celf ni wedi bod ar luniau cyfoes, so, er enghraifft, roedd gennym ni arddangosfa gyfoes yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. So, fel rhan o’r gwaith, rŷn ni wedi sifftio bach mwy i'r elfennau cyfoes, so mae'r staff hefyd yn ein helpu ni i fod mewn sefyllfa lle rŷn ni'n gallu cyfrannu yn ehangach i fod yn rhan o deulu’r oriel, er enghraifft.

But also if you think about—. Since the idea was mooted for the gallery, of course, our focus with a great deal of our art has been on contemporary art, so, for example, we had a contemporary art exhibition in the past year. So, as part of the work, we’ve shifted a little more to those contemporary art aspects, so our staff also help us to be in a position to make that wider contribution to be part of the gallery's family, for example.

A gaf i ofyn, felly: faint o bryder ydy o i chi, o ran cynaliadwyedd ariannol, i barhau â'r prosiect? Oherwydd yn amlwg, mi oedd yna bot o arian; rydych chi wedi cydnabod rôl hwnnw. Mae’r elfen fenthyciadau er mwyn gallu rhannu’r casgliadau yn ehangach yn elfen bwysig o hon. Ond eto, o beth rydyn ni'n ei ddeall, dydy'r arian ddim wedi’i warantu tu hwnt i hyd y prosiect. Felly, ydy o'n rhywbeth cynaliadwy ichi, gallu parhau heb arian ychwanegol, neu ydy o'n rhywbeth y byddech chi a phartneriaid yn awyddus i weld arian yn parhau i gael ei fuddsoddi, er mwyn gwireddu amcanion hirdymor?

Could I ask, therefore: how much of a concern is it for you, in terms of financial sustainability, in terms of continuing with this project? Because obviously, there was a pot of money; you’ve acknowledged the role that that plays. The loans element in order to be able to share those collections more broadly is an important element of this. But again, from what we understand, the money hasn’t been guaranteed beyond the length of the project. So, is it something sustainable for you to be able to continue without additional funding, or is it something that you and partners would be keen to see money continue to be invested in, in order to realise the long-term objectives?

Wel, mae hynny'n rhywbeth sydd yn destun trafod eithaf dwys ar y funud, i weld pa elfennau sydd yno all fod yn barhad gyda dim adnoddau ychwanegol ar gyfer parhad y prosiect, a pha lefel o  ariannu posib fyddai’n gallu darparu lefelau gwahanol o barhad i'r prosiect. O ran ein cyfraniad ni, rŷn ni'n awyddus i barhau i gefnogi prosiect sydd yn ehangu mynediad i gasgliadau i bobl Cymru. Felly, os ŷn ni'n medru gweithio o fewn lefel o adnodd sydd yn cynnig y parhad i ni, mi wnawn ni'n gorau i addasu.

Well, that is the topic of intense discussion at the moment, to see what elements are there that can be continued without any additional funding for the continuation of the project, and what level of potential funding would be able to provide different levels of continuation for the project. In terms of our contribution, we are eager to continue to support the project that widens access to collections for the people of Wales. So, if we can work within a level of resource that provides that opportunity for continuity, then we’ll do our best to adapt.

Ond mae’n hollbwysig i greu'r balans rhwng yr elfen ddigidol ac elfennau eraill. Wrth gwrs, mae yna sgyrsiau am adeiladau, ond o’n persbectif ni, achos nad ydyn ni yn y lle ble fydd yr oriel, o'n hochor ni, yn bendant, ein cyfraniad ni yw'r arddangosfeydd corfforol, ond hefyd o ran y digidol, a dyna lle ar y foment mae ein ffocws ni. Ond os oes unrhyw beth yn newid o ran y model, dyna ble byddem ni'n licio gweld mwy o incwm ar gyfer y llyfrgell yn bennaf, ochr yn ochr â’r elfen sy'n gallu ein cefnogi ni i roi arddangosfeydd bob chwech mis sydd yn waith cyfoes.

But it is important to strike that balance between the digital element and other elements. Of course, there are discussions being had about buildings, but from our perspective, because we’re not where the gallery will be located, our point of view, certainly, is our contribution is the physical exhibitions, but also in terms of the digital side, and that’s where our focus is at the moment. If anything changes in terms of the model, that’s where we’d like to see more income coming in for the library, side by side with the element that can support us to put on exhibitions every six months that are contemporary works.

Diolch am hynny. Mae gan Laura gwestiwn, ac wedyn Alun.

Thank you for that. Laura has a question, and then Alun.

Thank you for your answer. I do think the exact numbers are important. I think the financial contribution, even through staff, even just from you as a partner, is significant, especially as we’re looking long term. So, exact numbers would be helpful. If you don’t have them now, could we ask that you perhaps give them to the committee, and also the exact number of how much it’s costing the Welsh Government, please?

11:40

Dwi'n dilyn yr un trywydd: mae yna ddau gost, ontife? Mae yna gost meddal dŷch chi yn buddsoddi yn y project, a dŷch chi’n mynd i gyflogi’r staff yma anyway, so dyw e ddim yn gost caled dŷch chi wedi cyfrannu eich hun, mae’n gost meddal, onid ydy? Ac yn dilyn o beth oedd Laura wedi ei ddweud, mae’n swnio i fi—dwi’n gwerthfawrogi ac yn cydnabod y cyfraniad mae’r llyfrgell eisiau ei wneud, gyda llaw, dwi ddim yn cwestiynu hynny ond—mae’n swnio i fi fel bod y gefnogaeth dŷch chi wedi ei chael gan Lywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn eithaf pitw.

Following on from that question, there are two costs, aren't there? There are those soft costs that you invest in the project, and you're going to employ those staff anyway, so it isn't a hard cost, in a sense, it's a softer contribution from you. And following on from Laura's point, it sounds to me—I appreciate and acknowledge the contribution that the library wants to make, I don't question that, but—it sounds to me as though the support that you've received from the Welsh Government has been somewhat scant, if I may say so.

Wel, mae'r project wedi bod yn newydd i fi. O ran y llyfrgell, dwi’n credu bod gweithio ar y cyd i ehangu mynediad i gasgliadau—

Well, the project has been a new one for me. In terms of the library, I think that joint working to expand access to collections—

Ie, ie. Cyfraniad Llywodaeth Cymru dwi'n sôn amdano.

Yes, yes. But it's the contribution of the Welsh Government—that's what I'm talking about.

Cofia dyw'r arian o ran y cydlynu ddim yn mynd atom ni; mae’n mynd at gorff arall.

Remember that the money in terms of the co-ordination doesn't go to us; it goes to another body.

Ie, ie. Dwi'n sôn am gyfraniad Llywodraeth Cymru atoch chi, ac mae’n swnio i fi, o’r ymateb yn gynharach, fod yr arian basically wedi cyflogi aelod o staff.

Yes, yes. I'm talking about the Welsh Government's contribution to you, and it sounds to me, from the earlier response, that the library has basically employed a member of staff.

Mae'n fychan iawn.

It's very small.

Ydy.

It is.

Wel, dyw hynny ddim yn lot, nag yw e? Dyw e ddim yn lot o gyfraniad, nag yw e?

Well, that's not a lot, is it? It's not a lot of contribution.

Mae e'n gyfraniad sydd wedi golygu ein bod ni'n gallu chwarae rhan iawn yn y prosiect, ac os y model gwasgaredig—

It's a contribution that means that that we can play a part in the project, and in terms of that distributed model—

—yw'r ffordd ymlaen, os ŷn ni’n medru cynnal y capasiti yna ar gyfer parhau i gynorthwyo project—

—if that's being pursued, if we can sustain that capacity to contribute to the project—

—sydd yn mynd i fod yn bwysig i 10 oriel arall, hynny yw, byddwn ni'n teimlo ein bod ni wedi gallu chwarae'n rhan.

—that's going to be important for 10 other galleries, we feel that we can play our part in that regard.

Gaf i ofyn, felly, fyddech chi’n awyddus bod buddsoddiad y Llywodraeth yn parhau er mwyn i’r gwaith yma barhau, neu ydych chi’n hyderus y byddech chi’n gallu parhau i gyfrannu yn y modd ydych chi o fewn yr adnoddau sydd gennych chi?

Would you be keen for the Government's investment to continue in order for this work to continue, or are you confident that you would be able to continue to contribute in the way that you are within the resources that you have?

Wel, nawr rydym ni yn y maes arall. Nawr rydym ni wedi cyrraedd disgwyliadau os nad oes unrhyw gyfraniad, pa mor fychan yw e, ddim yna. Dydyn ni ddim eisiau stopio rhoi celf cyfoes o flaen y cyhoedd.

Well, now we've reached another area. Now we've reached the expectations if any contribution, however small, wasn't there. We don't want to stop putting contemporary art in front of the public.

Ond byddwn ni angen edrych ar faint o waith dŷn ni’n gallu ei wneud at y nod yma os oes toriadau eraill, ond os nad oes dim byd yn dod—. A chofia ein bod ni’n gweithio mewn partneriaeth yma. Dyw hwn ddim ein project ni. So, hefyd mae’n dibynnu ar ble mae partneriaid eraill eisiau gyrru ymlaen gyda’r project, os yw’r project yn newid cyfeiriad, wrth gwrs.

But we'd need to look at how much work we can do towards this aim if there were to be more cuts, but if nothing comes in—. And remember we're working in partnership. This isn't our project. So, also, it depends on where other partners want to drive forward the project, if the project changes direction, of course.

Efallai mai cwestiwn i’r partneriaeth ydy o, beth ydy’r dasg i Lywodraeth Cymru.

So, maybe that's a question for the partnership as to what the task for Welsh Government is.

Byddwn ni'n cario ymlaen i drio gweithio mewn partneriaeth gyda’r ddau gorff arall ar y project yma—

We will carry on to try and work in partnership with the two other bodies for this project—

Does neb yn cwestiynu—[Anghlywadwy.]

No-one questions—[Inaudible.]

Na, na, ond beth rydyn ni’n trio ei ddeall ydy beth ydy’r sefyllfa ariannol a pha fuddsoddiad fyddech chi ei angen er mwyn parhau efo hynny. Felly, trio helpu sefyllfa y llyfrgell—

No, but what we're trying to understand is what the financial situation is and what investment you would need in order to be able to continue with that. We're trying to help the situation of the library—

Wel, dydy hwn ddim yn rhywbeth rydym ni wedi ei wneud fel exercise costio, ond efallai—. Wel, rydych chi wedi gofyn y cwestiwn, felly byddwn ni’n ei wneud e, ar ein cyfer ni a chithau. 

Well, this isn't something we've done as a costing exercise, but perhaps—. Well, as you've asked the question, we will undertake it, for us and for you.

Gaf i ofyn un cwestiwn arall? Yn 2022, mi oedd y llyfrgell yn ystyried cynnig ar gyfer oriel gelf genedlaethol ac oriel ffotograffiaeth genedlaethol, yn amlwg, rhywbeth costus arall, ond gaf i ofyn beth ydy statws hynny? Ble mae o o fewn eich cynlluniau chi ar y funud?

Could I ask one other question? In 2022, the library was considering a proposal for a national photography gallery and a national art gallery. Obviously, that is another expensive thing, but could I ask what is the status of that plan is? Where is that in your plans at the moment?

Dyw e ddim yn uchel ar y rhestr blaenoriaethau ar y funud. Mae diogelwch sylfaenol yr adeilad wedi dod i frig y rhestr blaenoriaethau. Mae’r prosiectau datgarboneiddio hefyd yn ymrwymiad, dwi’n credu, tymor hir i ni i fod. Ond mae yna ddarnau eraill o waith hefyd yn edrych ar sut rŷn ni’n gallu datblygu’r defnydd o’r cyfleusterau o fewn yr adeilad heb edrych y tu allan ac adeiladu unrhyw beth ychwanegol. Ond hwyrach, maes o law, fe fydd cynlluniau gyda ni, a dwi’n gobeithio bydd y cynllun strategol yn helpu i roi cyfeiriad i hynny o ran beth sydd yn bwysig nid yn unig sut mae’r llyfrgell eisiau datblygu efo’r sefydliad, ond y cyfraniad rŷn ni’n ei wneud o ran sgiliau ac arbenigedd mewn nifer o feysydd, ac yn sôn yn benodol am ddigidol a chadwraeth, dwi’n credu. Felly y math yna o gyfeiriad dwi’n rhagweld yn un trywydd.

It isn't very high up on our list of priorities at the moment. The basic safety and security of the building has come to the top of that list of priorities since then. The decarbonisation projects are also a long-term commitment for us. But there are other pieces of work to be done in terms of how we can develop the use of the facilities within the building that we currently have, without looking outwards and constructing any additional buildings. But, perhaps, in due course, there will be plans in place, and I hope that the strategic plan will help to give us that direction in that regard in terms of what's important not only in terms of how the library wants to develop as an institution, but the contribution that we make in terms of skills and expertise in a number of areas, mentioning specifically digital and conservation, I think. So, it's that kind of direction that I foresee as being one path for us.

Dwi'n meddwl yn bendant mai persbectif y bwrdd yw ein bod ni eisiau gweld ein casgliadau ni mas gyda’r cyhoedd, nid jest yna, rwyt ti’n gallu clicio arno fe a rhoi rhyw enw i mewn ac rwyt ti’n cael eu lluniau nhw. Na, mae’n bwysig hefyd fod gwybodaeth o’u cwmpas nhw, so mae yna naratif o’u cwmpas nhw. Mae hyn i gyd, wrth gwrs, yn costio amser pobl ac adnoddau. Byddwn i'n licio, os oes unrhyw newid cyfeiriad, i hwn fod yn bendant rhan o unrhyw fuddsoddiad sy'n dod atom ni, achos mae'n helpu gyda'n nod ni o agor ein casgliadau ni mas a digideiddio mwy o'n casgliadau ni—yn bendant y gwaith celf sydd gyda ni.

I think certainly the board's perspective is that we would like to see our collections out with the public, not just there, you click on it, you put a name in and you see the pictures. No, it's important as well that there's information around those pictures, that there is a narrative around them. This is all, of course, something that costs in people's time and it costs in resources. I would like it, if there was a change in direction, for this to be part of any investment that would come to us, because it helps us with our aim of opening up the collections and digitising more of our collections—certainly the artwork that we have.

11:45

Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am fod yn hyblyg gyda'r amser hefyd. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi i chi wirio ei fod yn gofnod teg. Efallai bydd yna ambell i gwestiwn ychwanegol byddwn ni eisiau eu gofyn yn ysgrifenedig nad ŷm ni wedi cael cyfle i fynd ar eu hôl nhw. Dŷch chi hefyd wedi addo y byddwch chi'n anfon mwy o wybodaeth atom ni hefyd. Felly, gaf i ddiolch i chi, unwaith eto, am eich tystiolaeth y bore yma? Dŷn ni wir wedi'i gwerthfawrogi. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, thank you very much for being so flexible with your time too. A transcript of what has been said will be sent to you to check that it is an accurate record of the proceedings. And perhaps there are a few additional questions that we'll want to send you in writing that we haven't been able to cover. You've also said that you will send us additional information too. So, may I thank you, once again, for your evidence this morning? We really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Diolch.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much.

Aelodau, fe wnawn ni nawr barhau yn breifat, a fe wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat cyn cario ymlaen.

Members, we will now continue in private, and we'll wait to hear that we are in private before we proceed.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:45.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:45.

12:30

Ailymgynullodd y pwyllgor yn gyhoeddus am 12:31.

The committee reconvened in public at 12:31.

Prynhawn da. Croeso nôl i'n gwylwyr ni. Dŷn ni'n symud at eitem 8.

Good afternoon. Welcome back to our viewers. We're moving on to item 8.

8. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitem gyntaf y cyfarfod sydd wedi’i drefnu ar 9 Hydref 2024
8. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the first item of the meeting scheduled for 9 October 2024

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitem gyntaf y cyfarfod sydd wedi ei drefnu ar 9 Hydref 2024, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the first item of the meeting scheduled for 9 October 2024, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix). 

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Cyn symud ymlaen, mae gen i eitem weithrefnol fer. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42, rwy'n cynnig bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitem 1 o’r cyfarfod sydd wedi ei drefnu ar gyfer 9 Hydref 2024. Ydy'r Aelodau'n fodlon i ni wneud hynny? Iawn, ôce. 

Before we move ahead, I do have a procedural item. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I propose that the committee resolves to exclude the public from item 1 of the meeting on 9 October 2024. Are Members content to do that? Right, okay, they are. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion agreed.

9. Effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru (2)
9. Impact of funding reductions for culture and sport: Evidence session with Arts Council of Wales (2)

Felly, hoffwn i groesawu Dafydd Rhys i'n pwyllgor ni'r prynhawn yma. Dŷn ni, eto, yn edrych ar effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon. Mae hon yn sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Mi wnaf ofyn i Dafydd Rhys gyflwyno ei hun ar gyfer y record. 

I would like to welcome Dafydd Rhys to our committee this afternoon. Once again, we're looking at the impact of funding reductions on culture and sport. This is an evidence session with the Arts Council of Wales. I'll ask Dafydd Rhys to introduce himself for the record. 

Prynhawn da. Dafydd Rhys ydw i, prif weithredwr Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. 

Good afternoon. I'm Dafydd Rhys. I'm the chief executive officer of the Arts Council of Wales.  

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ydych chi'n hapus i ni fynd yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau? 

Thank you very much. Are you happy for us to go straight into questions? 

Ydw. 

Yes, I am. 

Felly, o ran dŷn ni wedi clywed ers rhai blynyddoedd bellach, oherwydd effeithiau COVID yn gyntaf, ac wedyn oherwydd pwysau ariannol, fod nifer o leoliadau celfyddydol naill ai wedi'u cau neu'n wynebu risg o gau, pa asesiad ydych chi wedi ei wneud ynglŷn â faint ohonyn nhw sydd yn wynebu'r risg yna o fewn y flwyddyn nesaf, buasech chi'n ei ddweud? 

We have heard for several years now, because of the effects of COVID first of all, and, then, because of the effects of financial pressures, that many arts venues either had closed or were facing a risk of closure, so what assessment have you made about how many of them are facing that risk within, maybe, the next year? 

Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn da ac yn gwestiwn amserol iawn. Mae yna nifer o ganolfannau yn wynebu heriau ariannol difrifol ar hyn o bryd. Mae rhai ohonyn nhw, wrth gwrs, yn wybyddus i'r cyhoedd. Mae e'n gyfuniad, byddwn i'n ei ddweud, o ddiffyg cyllid digonol, efallai, oddi wrthym ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau, ond yn fwy na hynny mae'n broblem llawer mwy, yn yr ystyr bod awdurdodau lleol, sy'n gyfrifol am nifer o'r canolfannau yma, yn wynebu heriau ariannol difrifol yn ogystal. A hefyd, y datblygiad pellach ar hyn o bryd yw ein prifysgolion ni. Mae ein prifysgolion ni hefyd yn wynebu heriau; rhai yn gorfod ffeindio tua £15 miliwn o fewn y flwyddyn o arbedion, rhai yn fwy na hynny. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r rheini sydd â chanolfannau celfyddydol yn rhan o'r campws, yn rhan o'u cynllun nhw, mae hwnna'n rhoi pwysau ar y canolfannau hynny hefyd. Un peth byddwn i'n dweud sydd hefyd wedi dod i'r amlwg i mi yw, yn sicr mewn trafodaethau gydag awdurdodau lleol, fod nifer ohonynt ar lefel bersonol yn dweud dydyn nhw ddim eisiau gorfod wynebu penderfyniadau i gau canolfannau celfyddydol, ond, gan dyw e ddim yn gyfrifoldeb statudol, mae e'n lle hawdd mewn un ffordd neu'n lle cyflym i fynd ato i dreial balanso'r llyfrau, a dweud y gwir.  

Well, that's a very good question and a very timely question too. There are a number of centres and venues facing significant financial challenges at the moment. Some of them, of course, are known to the public. It's a combination, I would say, of a lack of adequate funding, perhaps, from us as an arts council, but, more than that, it's a far larger problem, in the sense that local authorities, which are responsible for a number of these venues, are facing significant financial challenges themselves. And also, the further development at the moment is our universities. Our universities are also facing challenges; some of them are having to find £15 million in-year savings, and some more than that even. And those that have their own art centres as part of their campuses, that places pressures on those particular venues too. One thing I would say that also has become clear to me, certainly in discussions with local authorities, is a number of them on a personal level say that they don't want to have to face the decisions to close art centres and venues, but, because it isn't a statutory responsibility, it's an easy place in some ways or a swift way to try to balance the books, truth be told.  

Diolch am hwnna. A dŷn ni'n gwybod bod rhai gwledydd eraill, fel Iwerddon—. Mae e wedi dod yn gyfrifoldeb statudol. Ydych chi yn meddwl bod lle i Gymru edrych ar rywbeth tebyg er mwyn gwarantu diogelwch—wel, dyfodol—y sefydliadau hyn? 

Thank you for that. And we know that some other countries, like Ireland—. In those countries it has become a statutory responsibility. Do you think that there's space for Wales to look at something similar in order to be able to guarantee the security—or the future—of these organisations?

12:35

Mae'r pwnc yna wedi codi mewn amryw o sesiynau cyhoeddus dwi wedi'u cael yn y chwe mis diwethaf. O ran Deddf llesiant y dyfodol, mae diwylliant yn un o'r pedwar conglfeini yn fanna, ond does yna ddim cyfrifoldebau statudol i gael iddi. Felly, byddwn i'n annog y pwyllgor yma i ystyried hynna. Mae'n sicr y bydden ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau am weld hynna'n digwydd.

That topic has come up in several of the public sessions I've held in the last six months. In terms of the future generations Act, culture is one of the four cornerstones of that Act, but there are no statutory responsibilities in that. So, I would encourage this committee to consider that. Certainly, we as the arts council would like to see that happen.

Diolch am hynna. Mae hynna'n glir iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud at Heledd Fychan.

Thank you for that. That's very clear. We'll move to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. Eisiau mynd i mewn i'r sefyllfa o ran arian ydyn ni. Yn amlwg, mi gawsoch chi gyhoeddiad dros yr haf o ran peth arian ychwanegol, a dwi wedi gweld eich bod chi'n hysbysebu rŵan o ran sut fydd hwnna'n mynd rhagddo. Efallai y byddai'n fuddiol gwybod pa effaith mae hynny'n ei chael, a hefyd o ran ei fod o'n dod yng nghanol blwyddyn yn hytrach na'i rhoi ar y dechrau. Hefyd, jest o ran yr effaith pe byddai cyngor y celfyddydau yn derbyn naill ai'r un faint o incwm eleni, neu yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, neu ostyngiad, beth fyddech chi'n credu fyddai effaith hynny?

Thank you. We want to get into the situation in terms of the funding. Obviously, you had that announcement over the summer in terms of a little bit of additional funding, and I've seen that you are advertising now in terms of how that will go ahead. Perhaps it would be beneficial to hear what impact that is having, and also given that it comes in the middle of the year, rather than at the start. Also, just in terms of the impact if the arts council were to see either the same amount of income this year, or in the next financial year, or if there was a decrease, what do you think the impact of that would be?

Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn eithaf mawr—

That's a big question there—

—ac fe wnaf i drial ei ateb e mewn sawl ffordd. O ran ni fel corff, fel cyngor y celfyddydau, fe gawson ni doriad o 10.5 y cant, fel sy'n wybyddus i bawb. Roedd hwnna ar 19 Rhagfyr y llynedd. Bu'n rhaid i ni fynd i mewn i gyfnod o ddiswyddo gwirfoddol a gorfodol, mewn cydweithrediad â'r undebau. Roedd yn rhaid inni hefyd ailbroffilio ein cyllideb ni.

Un o'r pethau roeddwn i a'r cyngor yn frwd iawn i drial gwarchod oedd y cynigion amodol oedd wedi cael eu rhoi i'r sector yn y cytundebau amlflwyddyn, Ac felly, fel polisi, fel benderfynon ni beidio â throsglwyddo'r 10.5 y cant yna i'r sector yn gyfan gwbl, ond bu'n rhaid inni drosglwyddo 2.5 y cant. Felly, i ni fel corff, fe gollon ni tua 10, 13, efallai, o aelodau o staff. Roedden ni'n gorfod mynd i mewn i broses o ailstrwythuro. Roedd yn rhaid i bopeth ddigwydd yn gyflym iawn. Ac un o'r rhesymau roedd yn rhaid i fe ddigwydd yn gyflym oedd bod y Llywodraeth, oedd yn cynnig cefnogaeth ariannol i ganiatáu i hyn ddigwydd, yn mynnu ar un pwynt fod yn rhaid i fe ddigwydd cyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol. Ond, yng nghanol y broses, fe laciwyd hynny, ac roedd hwnna'n dda o beth, oherwydd roedd e'n golygu ein bod ni, a chyrff eraill oedd yn yr un sefyllfa, yn gallu ymestyn rhai dyddiadau cau, ac yn y blaen.

O ran yr adolygiad buddsoddiad, dim ond 13 corff gafodd yr hyn roedden nhw'n gofyn amdano yn eu ceisiadau gwreiddiol. Roedd tua 63 yn cael beth rôn i'n galw'n standstill, fwy neu lai—yr un peth—ac yn y bôn, oherwydd y costau cynyddol, roedd yn doriad, i bob pwrpas, mewn termau real. Ond wedyn, gyda'r 2.5 y cant yma'n cael ei drosglwyddo, roedd hwnna hefyd yn effeithio arnyn nhw. 

Felly, petai yna fwy o doriad i gyngor y celfyddydau a'r grant, y peth arall i atgoffa'r pwyllgor ohono yw bod 92 y cant o'n cyllid ni i gyd yn cael ei drosglwyddo i mewn i'r sector, mewn rhyw ffordd neu'i gilydd. Felly, rŷn ni'n gorff bach; rŷn ni'n gorff sydd yn rhyddhau ac yn rhannu'r incwm rŷn ni'n ei gael ledled Cymru. Pe baem ni'n cael toriad ychwanegol—ac mae hwn yn rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei ystyried ac yn edrych arno yn fewnol—fe fyddai'n golygu y byddai'n rhaid inni ailystyried faint rŷn ni'n gallu ei gyflawni, faint rŷn ni'n gallu ei gyflawni o ran y llythyr remit gan y Llywodraeth. A bydden ni'n gofyn am drafodaethau eithaf gonest ac agored gyda'r Llywodraeth yn hynny o beth.

Ein prif waith ni, a'n priod waith ni, yw datblygu'r celfyddydau yng Nghymru, ac mae hwnna'n rhywbeth rŷn ni'n ei gymryd yn gyfan gwbl o ddifrif, ond dim ond hyn a hyn y gall rhywun ei wneud, dwi'n meddwl. Oherwydd, yn y cytundeb remit, mae yna bob math o gyfrifoldebau'n cael eu rhoi arnom ni, ac mae rhai, mewn trafodaethau gyda Gweinidogion, yn fwy blaenllaw na'i gilydd, ond dyna rywbeth y byddai'n rhaid inni ei ystyried fel corff. A beth sy'n ddiddorol i fi yn fanna, er bod llai o staff, yw bod trial cael y staff i wneud llai yn rhywbeth sydd ddim yn dod yn reddfol, oherwydd mae'r staff mor ymroddedig i'r celfyddydau. Ond hyd yn oed ar hyn o bryd rŷn ni'n trial dweud, 'Wel, dydy hwnna ddim yn flaenoriaeth; mae'n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar feysydd eraill.' Felly, o ran toriad, byddai toriad wedyn i ni fel corff yn golygu efallai lai o swyddi, ac felly lai o hyblygrwydd i ddelifro pob dim rŷn ni'n ei ddelifro ar hyn o bryd.

O ran y sector, dwi'n meddwl y bydd e'n amrywio. Dwi'n credu y cyfeiriwyd eisoes at ganolfannau; dwi'n credu y byddai'n creu problemau enfawr yn fanna. Dwi'n meddwl y byddem ni mewn sefyllfa lle byddai rhai canolfannau gorfod ystyried a ydy e'n bosibl iddyn nhw fodoli neu beidio.

Fe aethoch chi nôl at y cwestiwn yma o grantiau canol blwyddyn. Fe wnaethon ni gael £1 filiwn yn gynharach yn y flwyddyn—dwi'n meddwl taw blwyddyn ariannol y llynedd oedd hi nawr—lle gwnaethon ni drosglwyddo hyd at £900,000, dwi'n meddwl, i'r sector, sef o dan 'gwarchod swyddi', ac fe warchodwyd, dwi'n meddwl, tua 38 o swyddi fel rhan o'r broses yna. Yr unig beth y byddwn i'n ei ddweud, er ein bod ni'n croesawu'n fawr iawn unrhyw help i'r sector, yw taw un o'r problemau gyda grantiau o'r fath yna yw, i ddefnyddio idiom Saesneg, os liciwch chi, eu bod nhw'n cael eu gweld fel sticking plasters. Dŷn nhw ddim yn ateb y gofyn tymor hir i ddatrys rhai o'r problemau y mae diffyg ariannu yn ei olygu.

Beth mae yn gwneud, sy'n bositif, yw prynu mwy o amser—prynu mwy o amser i gyrff ac i venues, er enghraifft, weithio ar sut gallan nhw addasu eu modelau busnes i ddygymod gyda nid jest llai o arian oddi wrthym ni neu oddi wrth awdurdodau lleol, ond oherwydd bod arferion y gynulleidfa wedi newid yn ogystal, yn yr ystyr rŷn ni yn gweld bod yna gynnydd mewn digwyddiadau byw a bod yna gynnydd mewn theatr neu gerddoriaeth fyw, ond yn aml iawn, yn draddodiadol, beth oedd yn caniatáu i waith mwy arbrofol ddigwydd oedd y sinema. Wel, o ran cynulleidfaoedd sinema—ac roedd hwn yn wir cyn y pandemig ac ar ôl y pandemig—dŷn nhw ddim wedi tyfu nôl. Mi oedd sinema yn cael ei weld fel rhywbeth rhad i roi ymlaen, rhywbeth a oedd yn dod ag incwm da a oedd yn caniatáu help ar draws gweithgareddau eraill. Felly, mae hwnna hefyd yn ffactor—bod arferion y gynulleidfa'n newid. 

—and I'll try to answer it in several different ways. In terms of us as a body, as the Arts Council of Wales, we received a cut of 10.5 per cent, as is well known to everyone. That was on 19 December of last year. We had to go into a period of voluntary and compulsory redundancies, in co-operation with the unions. We had to also reprofile our budget.

One of the things that we wanted to do, and we were very eager to safeguard, were the conditional proposals provided to the sector in the multi-year agreements. So, as policy, we decided not to transfer that 10.5 per cent cut to the sector in its entirety, but we did have to transfer 2.5 per cent of a cut. So, we as a body lost around 10, 13, perhaps, members of staff. We had to go into a process of restructuring. Also, everything had to happen very quickly. And one of the reasons it had to happen quickly was that the Government, who was providing financial support to enable all of this to happen, insisted that it had to happen before the end of the financial year. But, in the middle of that process, some flexibility was allowed in that regard, and it did mean that we, and other bodies in the same situation, could extend some deadlines, and so on.

In terms of the investment review, only 13 bodies received what they had asked for in their original bids. Around 63 received standstill funding—the same—so, because of the increased costs, it was a cut, to all intents and purposes, in real terms. But then, with this 2.5 per cent cut being transferred, that also had an impact on them.

So, if there were to be a greater cut for the arts council, another thing to remind the committee of is that 92 per cent of our funding is all transferred to the sector in some way or another. So, we are a very small body; we are a body that releases and shares the income that we receive across Wales. If we were to face an additional cut—and this is something that we have been considering and looking at internally—it would mean that we would have reconsider how much we can deliver, how much we can deliver and achieve in terms of the remit letter provided by the Government. And we would be asking for honest and open discussions with the Government on that, if it were to happen.

Our major task is to develop the arts in Wales, and that's something that we take very seriously, but one can only do so much. Because, in the remit letter, there are all kinds of responsibilities outlined, and some, in discussions with Ministers, are more prominent than others, but that's something that we would have to consider as a body. And what's interesting for me is that, although there are fewer staff members, trying to get the staff to do less isn't something that comes naturally to them, or it's not instinctive, because the staff are so dedicated to the arts. But even at the moment we're trying to say, 'Well, that isn't a priority; we have to focus on other areas.' So, in terms of a cut, the cut for us as a body would mean perhaps that we would have fewer posts again and, therefore, less flexibility to deliver everything that we currently deliver.

And for the sector, I think it would vary. I think reference was made earlier to venues. I think it would create huge problems for those venues, and I think that we would be in a situation where some venues would have to consider whether it's possible for them to exist or not.

You went back to this question of in-year or mid-year grants. We received £1 million earlier in the year—I think it was in the last financial year now—where we transferred, I think, £900,000 to the sector under the jobs protection element. I think around 38 jobs were safeguarded as part of that process. The only thing I would say, although we welcome very much any help for the sector, one of the problems with grants of that kind provided during the year, to use an English idiom, they're seen as a sticking plaster. They don't answer the long-term demand to solve some of the problems that a lack of funding causes.

What it does do, which is positive, is it buys you more time—it buys more time for bodies and for venues, for example, to work on how they can adapt their business models to cope with not just less funding from us or less from local authorities, but because audience habits have changed too, in the sense that we are seeing that there is an increase in live events, there is an increase in theatre or live music, but very often, traditionally, what enabled more experimental work to happen was the cinema. Well, cinema audiences—and this was true pre pandemic and post pandemic—haven’t grown back, and cinema was seen as a cheap thing to put on, something that brought in a good level of income and which enabled assistance across other activities. So, I think that's a factor, that audience habits are changing.

12:40

Diolch. Efallai y byddai'n fuddiol i wahaniaethu rhwng y cyllid i chi fel cyngor a hefyd yr arian rydych chi'n ei ddosrannu. Os cawn ni edrych yn benodol arnoch chi fel cyngor celfyddydau rŵan, rydych chi'n sôn am eich rôl o ran datblygu'r celfyddydau yng Nghymru. Deg i 13 aelod o staff—mae hwnna'n ostyngiad sylweddol mewn tîm bach iawn. Beth ydy'ch pryderon chi ynglŷn ag effaith hynny? Mae'n gwestiwn y gwnes i ei ofyn i'r llyfrgell hefyd—yr effaith ar forâl staff. Sut ydych chi'n mesur hynny? Ac o ran y gefnogaeth rydych chi'n gallu ei darparu i'r sector ledled Cymru, faint mae hynny wedi'i gyfyngu oherwydd y toriadau rydych chi wedi gorfod eu gwneud o ran y tîm bach oedd gennych chi yn barod? Faint o dîm ydych chi rŵan? Fe wnaethon ni glywed bod yna 10 y cant o ostyngiad gan y llyfrgell. Faint o ostyngiad sydd wedi bod i'ch tîm?

Thank you. Maybe it would be beneficial to differentiate from the funding of you as a council and also the money that you allocate. If we look specifically at you as the arts council now, you mentioned your role in terms of developing the arts in Wales. Ten to 13 members of staff—that is a significant reduction of an already small team. What are your concerns in terms of the effects of that? It's a question I asked the library as well, as regards the effect on staff morale. How are you measuring that? And also, in terms of the support that you can provide to the sector across Wales, how much has that been limited because of the cuts that you've had to make in terms of the small team you already had? How much of a team are you now? We heard that it was a 10 per cent reduction for the library. How much of a reduction has it been for you?

Rhywbeth tebyg. Mi oeddem ni â rhywbeth fel 91 neu 92 o aelodau o staff. Roedd rhai yng Nghaerdydd, rhai yn y gogledd a rhai yn y gorllewin. Mae swyddfeydd gyda ni ym Mae Colwyn ac yng Nghaerfyrddin, ac rydyn wedi colli rhyw 13, so rydyn ni lawr tua 80, o gwmpas fanna. Un o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi gorfod ei wneud, wrth gwrs, yw bod peth o'n gwaith ni, yn sicr ym maes iechyd, yn cael ei ariannu gan arian y loteri, ac mae yna gyfyngiadau amser ar arian y Llywodraeth sydd yn cefnogi hynny. Felly, mae yna nifer ar fixed term, fel petai—dŷn nhw ddim yn aelodau o staff. Ond rŷn ni o gwmpas tua 80 o bobl, byddwn i'n dweud.

Something similar. We did have something like 91 or 92 members of staff. Some of those are based in Cardiff, some are in north Wales, some are in west Wales. We have offices in Colwyn Bay and Carmarthen, and we've lost around 13, so we're down to around 80, or something like that. One of the things that we've had to do, of course, is that some of our work, certainly in the health area, is funded by lottery funding, and there are time restrictions on the Government funding that supports that. So a number of those people have fixed-term contracts—they're not full-time members of staff. But we have around 80 people, I would say.

Felly, gostyngiad sylweddol.

So, it's a significant decrease. 

Mae e'n ostyngiad sylweddol. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod edrych ar y ffordd rŷn ni'n cyfathrebu gyda'r sector. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod edrych ar y ffordd rŷn ni'n gweithio gyda'r sector. Rŷn ni wedi, yn y ddau fis diwethaf, llwyddo nawr i ailrannu gwaith y lead officers, fel rŷn ni'n eu galw nhw, sydd yn ymwneud â'r cwmnïoedd aml-flwyddyn. Felly, mae hwnna wedi'i wneud. Mae hi'n broses interim, yn yr ystyr rŷn ni'n ei gwneud hi am y chwe mis nesaf i asesu sut mae'n mynd i weithio. Rŷn ni'n onest gyda'r sector yn yr ystyr allwn ni ddim rhoi'r un gwasanaeth yr oeddem ni'n ei roi yn y gorffennol o ran cynnig cyngor neu fod ar gael 24 awr y dydd i gynghori. Rŷn ni'n gwneud ein gorau i ddiwallu hynny.

Rŷn ni wedi gorfod torri hefyd ar bethau fel, er enghraifft, Collectorplan, y system gasglu. Roedd e'n hen ffasiwn; roedd hi'n dal yn broses bapur. Dydy e ddim yn dod i ben; mae'n dod i ben fel mae e, ond rŷn ni'n mynd i'w gyfuno gydag Own Art. Bydd e'n galluogi'r cyhoedd i beidio teimlo unrhyw wahaniaeth, mewn ffordd, ond ei fod e'n gynllun Prydeinig yn hytrach na'n cynllun ni. Mae hwnna'n arbed gwaith i staff. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod torri ar bethau fel Cymru yn Fenis, er enghraifft. Roedd hwnna'n un peth rŷn ni wedi gorfod peidio blaenoriaethu. Felly, rhwng trial torri lawr ar rai o ddisgwyliadau'r staff a hefyd y sector, a hefyd trial arallgyfeirio, rŷm ni, dwi'n meddwl, ar hyn o bryd yn ymdopi.

Rŷm ni hefyd, mae'n deg i mi ddweud, wedi llwyddo i ddod â rhai swyddi ychwanegol i fewn ar lefel is. Roedd hwnna'n rhan o'r ailstrwythuro fel roeddem ni'n edrych ar anghenion y busnes. Felly, rŷm ni'n dod mewn â swyddog hygyrchedd. Un peth rŷm ni wedi'i sylweddoli yw bod yna alw mawr gan y sector am help ac am gyngor ar faterion hygyrchedd ac anabledd, felly rŷm ni'n dod mewn â swyddog hygyrchedd; bydd hwnna'n cael ei hysbysebu yn yr wythnosau nesaf. Rŷm ni hefyd yn dod â help i fewn, yn weinyddol yn bennaf, ar ochr materion busnes, oherwydd mae hwnna'n rhywbeth hollbwysig i ni. Mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau bod gwariant arian cyhoeddus yn mynd i'w briod le ac am y rhesymau cywir, felly mae'n rhaid i ni warchod hwnna. Felly, mae yna gryfhau mewn ambell i le, ond mae yna—beth fuaswn i'n dweud—newid hefyd mewn llefydd eraill. 

We've had to look at the way that we communicate with the sector. We've had to look at the way that we work with the sector. We have, in the past two months, succeeded now in redistributing the work of the lead officers, as we call them, which relates to the multi-year companies. So, that has been done. It's an interim process, in the sense that we'll do it for the next six months to assess how that will work. We are honest with the sector in the sense that we can't give the same service that we've given in the past in terms of offering advice or being available 24 hours a day to advise. We are doing our best to meet the needs.

We have had to cut as well things like Collectorplan, which is the loan system. It was old fashioned, in that it was still run on paper. It isn't coming to an end; it's coming to an end in its current form, but we're going to combine it with Own Art. It will allow the public not to notice any difference, in a way, but that's a British scheme rather than our own scheme. That will save work for staff. We've had to cut down on things like Wales in Venice, for example. That was one thing that we had to not prioritise. Therefore, between trying to cut down in terms of some of the expectations that our staff and the sector have, and also trying to diversify, we are, I think, at the moment managing to cope. 

It's also fair to say that we have succeeded in bringing in some additional posts at a lower level. That was part of the restructuring as we looked at the needs of the business. So, we are bringing in an accessibility officer. One thing that we have noticed is that there's great demand from the sector for support and advice when it comes to accessibility and disability, so we are bringing in an accessibility officer; that will be advertised in the next few weeks. We're also bringing in administrative support, mainly on the business side because that is something that's crucial for us. We have to ensure that the public money spend goes to the right place and for the right reasons, so we have to protect that. So, there is strengthening in some aspects, but there is also—what shall I say—a change as well in some areas. 

12:45

Os caf i, rŷch chi'n dweud eich bod chi'n ymdopi, ond ydy hynna'n gynaliadwy? 

If I may, you say that you are coping, but is that sustainable? 

Dyna'r pwynt, onid e? Mae yna newid sylweddol yn dod i ni fel cyngor. Rŷm ni wedi newid yr uwch-dîm rheoli. Mae yna ddau newydd yn dechrau yn yr hydref, sef Catryn Ramasut fel cyfarwyddwr celfyddydau, a Lorna Virgo fel pennaeth materion busnes, neu gyfarwyddwr busnes. Fel rhan o edrych ymlaen i'r flwyddyn nesaf, yn sicr, rŷm ni'n mynd i edrych ar yr holl ffordd rŷm ni'n rheoli ein grantiau, ac yn y blaen.   

That's the point, isn't it? There is significant change coming to us as a council. We have changed the senior management team. There are two new officers starting in the autumn—Catryn Ramasut as arts director, and Lorna Virgo as business director. As part of looking ahead to the next year, we'll be looking at the whole way in which we manage our grants, and so on. 

O ran morâl staff, sut ydych chi'n mesur hynny? Ydych chi'n gwneud arolwg staff blynyddol? 

In terms of staff morale, how do you measure that? Do you conduct an annual staff survey? 

Mae yna arolwg staff ar fin mynd allan, ar 4 Hydref, dwi'n meddwl. Mae yna arolwg staff yn mynd allan. Mae e'n rhan bwysig o'n cofrestr risg ni—morâl y staff a staff yn medru ymdopi gyda'r gwaith. Rŷm ni hefyd yn cynnig, ac mewn trafodaethau gyda'r undeb, edrych i weld a allwn ni gynnig rywfaint o amser o ran llesiant i staff. Mae yna grŵp llesiant staff gyda ni, felly rŷn ni'n trafod hwnna. Mae staff yn poeni am bwysau gwaith—dwi'n meddwl mai hwnna yw'r prif beth mae pobl yn poeni amdano—a hefyd yn poeni am y sector. Pan fydd rhywun yn derbyn galwadau yn aml neu e-byst sydd yn cyfeirio at broblemau, mae e'n gallu cael effaith ar forâl ac ar iechyd meddwl, a mae hwnna'n rhywbeth rŷm ni'n ymwybodol iawn ohono fe. 

Mae yna gyfarfodydd staff wythnosol wedi bod gyda ni. Roedd e'n sicr yn bwysig ar adeg y cyfnod ailstrwythuro, ond nawr mae gennym ni bennaeth comms newydd wedi dechrau, Gwen Siôn, ac rŷn ni'n edrych ar ffyrdd ac yn cydweithio gyda staff i weld sut gallwn ni newid ein cyfathrebu mewnol. Mae hwnna mor bwysig, fel ein bod ni'n cael cyfle i fesur sut mae staff yn teimlo, a hefyd i ni gael esbonio ac i roi gwybodaeth i staff yn gyson am yr hyn sy'n digwydd. 

There is a staff survey that's just about to go out, on 4 October, I think. So, there is a staff survey. It's an important part of our risk register—staff morale and staff being able to cope with their work. We have also suggested, in discussion with the union, looking to see if we can offer some sort of well-being time for staff. We have a staff well-being group that will be discussing that. Staff are concerned about workload—I think that's the main thing people are concerned about—and about the sector, in the sense that when someone receives frequent calls or e-mails that refer to problems, then that can have an effect on morale and on mental health, and that's something that we're very aware of. 

There are weekly staff meetings that we've been holding. It was certainly important during the restructuring process, but now we have a new head of comms, Gwen Siôn, who has started work. So, we're working with staff and looking for ways in which we can change our internal communications, because it's so important to make sure that we have the opportunity to measure how staff are feeling, and also for us to be able to explain and to provide information to staff on a regular basis about what's happening.  

Diolch am hwnna. Mae gen i geisiadau am gwestiynau atodol gan Laura a gan Carolyn. Mi wnaf i fynd at Laura yn gyntaf. 

Thank you for that. I have questions now from Laura and then Carolyn. We'll go to Laura first. 

Thank you, Chair. I'll just take this off; sorry, it was echoing. Of course, I concur with everything my colleague's just said—we all, naturally, have these concerns about the effect the Welsh Government funding cuts are going to have on the arts, particularly in key venues and organisations that add extraordinary value to Wales and communities across Wales. You said yourself just now that it's so important that the right funding goes to the right places—of course, I agree with that—and I'm sure, Mr Rhys, that if you had a bigger budget and all the money that you could have, you would give Welsh National Opera more money, wouldn't you? 

Well, Welsh National Opera is a really interesting and well-publicised situation. I think I have to be quite sensitive in my comments in this committee, because I don't want to do anything that could undermine the management and the quite intricate negotiations with the unions. I have had constant discussions with the Welsh National Opera and with Arts Council England. We did, actually, ACE and ourselves as ACW, assist the Welsh National Opera. We co-funded a report; we funded Caroline Felton's report, to go in to help the Welsh National Opera, to do what they could in terms of changing the organisation.

The big challenge for them is changing from a £16-million turnover organisation to a £12-million. It's a combination of public money and income and commercial money. Our hope and our desire is to see a successful national opera company in Wales that not only serves the people of Cardiff but the whole of Wales. And actually, I think it should be noted that some of the work they do in the community and in arts and health, for example, is quite exemplary, and that came out in the report that Caroline Felton did. So, we hope that the negotiation and we hope that the discussions will prove beneficial.

On that subject, though—because I'm aware I didn't perhaps answer Heledd's question completely on the jobs—in terms of the recent £1.5 million, the Welsh National Opera do qualify to come in for that, if they wish to do so, in terms of some support. So, we'll wait and see; it hasn't come in as yet.

12:50

And—forgive me for interrupting—that's the operational resilience fund. 

Yes, the £1.5 million that was announced three weeks ago, a month ago. 

Of course, yes, because if you had the funding, of course you'd want to give more money to save those staff and save the jobs of the WNO, wouldn't you? So, are you confident, Mr Rhys, that all the projects that are currently funded by the arts council offer Wales good value for money?

I think they do, yes. I think that there's an old-fashioned approach to the arts sometimes in Wales: one forgets that our contribution to health is quite extraordinary, I think. We are seen as a leading organisation in international terms in what we do in arts and health. I think I've referred, in this committee previously, to the Lancet article that's about nine months old now, I think, that Wales is seen as leading, but somehow, when we discuss funding for the arts, we forget that we should probably receive some money from health. What we do in creative learning in the schools is quite extraordinary, I think. And the one thing I would ask in terms of the way we think about funding for the arts—and I would ask the Welsh Government to give this more consideration—is rather than consider the arts council as coming from the culture pot alone, to look across Government, to see what we can contribute in terms of whether we can have some formal funding from health, formal funding from education, formal funding also from international relations. We tend to think of the arts as a silo that comes out of the culture pot.

So, you think all your projects are good value for money. I did have a look through, before this committee, on your Arts Council of Wales website, which was great, but I did come across something that—. I was just wondering, would it be possible, Chair, if Mr Rhys could read this out? It's just from the arts council website, and then perhaps we could discuss it.

It depends what it is; I have no idea what it is.

It's the Edinburgh fringe 2024. Okay. 

'A high-camp, chaotic drag cabaret written and performed by iconic Welsh mother and daughter drag-duo Polly Amorous and Esther Parade. Join Polly and Esther as they navigate chosen family, adolescence and villainous low-fat yogurt-based probiotic gut-health brands—all whilst serving intergenerational c*nt! A celebration of self-expression, a joyfully queer blend of drag, musical theatre and cabaret, and a tale of finding family in unlikely places. 

'"I'd give this six stars if I was a reviewer!"'

Chair, if I may: Mr Rhys, as you saw, paused on one of the words and didn't say the full word, and I can understand why, because as a woman, when I read that on the arts council's website, I found that quite offensive, and disappointing to see that on there. And this is where public money is going. I would probably suggest that if that word was difficult to say in a committee, I don't think, perhaps, it's appropriate for a website.

12:55

If we could try and bring the questioning into the remit of what we're looking at this afternoon.

Yes, absolutely, it is, though, because it's where that value for money is coming from. Are we giving the money to the right things when we've got projects like this, which are—? You can say what you like about it, but when words like that are used, I'm not sure that's really the projection what Wales wants to put over to the world. When you compare that to the Welsh National Opera, which is offering such a good value for money, they're offering so much in terms of their work, they're highly skilled, et cetera. I'm just not sure that all projects that, perhaps, you're funding are that value for money, are appropriate, and it may just be worth maybe looking into them and seeing if that money could be redistributed.

I think that point has been made. I think that we can move on from that. 

I'd just like to make one point, though, in terms of the Welsh National Opera. I haven't seen this particular project that you refer to, personally, so I'm not going to comment on the content of that. It was in Edinburgh. When we choose projects to go to Edinburgh, there's an independent group and body that come to choose. People pitch for it and choose, and therefore it was felt that it was appropriate. But I haven't seen it, so I won't answer any more. The one thing I will say about the Welsh National Opera, though, is that you need to consider our blend of funding. The Welsh National Opera is the highest supported organisation that we fund. So, when you consider our blend of funding, I think that's where you've got to consider value for money as well.

Diolch. Carolyn, roedd gennych chi gwestiynau atodol.

Carolyn, you had some additional questions.

Just regarding procedure, I normally would think that anything that would be handed out would be shared with you first, but we will check that later, maybe. Thank you.

It's on the arts council website, but I'm willing to show you. There's a copy here if you want to see it.

We discussed earlier that the UK has one of the lowest spending on culture and the arts amongst EU nations, and we can't access Creative Europe funding either at the moment. So, as a committee, we want to try and follow that up as well. That's really important, isn't it? Because, like you say, Wales is leading in international terms, and extremely good value for money, I think, then in the funding that we receive here. 

We've been doing a lot of work. We hosted On the Move—I don't know how many of you were aware—on artist mobilty in Europe, in Caernarfon, in Galeri. It must be six months ago now. I'm trying to remember when it was. But we hosted that, which was an international conference to look at this issue about artists and companies' flexibility in moving, post Brexit, in Europe. We've also been in discussion with the Labour Government in Westminster, in particular with Nick Thomas-Symonds, the Torfaen MP, I think, in terms of his brief in terms of European relations. I know that they are keen to look at a single visa entry, possibly, but there's a lot of work to do on that. But that is something that we do have a concern about. Because we also host Infopoint, which is the organisation—. We host it on behalf of the other arts councils of the UK, in terms of helping artists from around the world coming into Wales, but also helping artists from Wales to go into Europe and beyond. So, yes, that is a concern, but we are actively advocating that and trying to engage not only with Government here, but also with Government in Westminster.

That's really good to hear. Thank you. I wanted to just come in with my later question now, because it's appropriate in terms of what Heledd was saying about staff under pressure. So, if I could just ask you this. It was just responding to the committee's consultation:

'There is a sense within the arts sector that the Arts Council are under pressure, and should not be disturbed unless absolutely necessary.'

So, I just wanted to ask you: is that a fair description? That was then leading on to to what extent are funding reductions for the arts council limiting its ability to function as an organisation. 

Probably linking in to what Heledd was asking about morale as well.

It's overall morale. I guess, if people are trying to communicate with concerns, then it can be really difficult. So, I guess that's what this relates to.

I think, just to add to what I've already said in response to Heledd, we have to change as an organisation in how we work. And we’re doing that, we’re doing that gradually. But I also think that—. We had a simple discussion. Our grants information line is open 9 to 5 every day, so people can get in touch with the arts council between 9 and 5 every day. But we were discussing whether we can sustain that, and we are looking at actually changing it to 10 until 4, which might not seem much of a change, but in organisational and operational ways, it can help us as an organisation. But it does mean, though, that we will not be as available as we used to be.

So, we do have to change. I think we’ve got a very good relationship with the sector. There are organisations like Creu Cymru that we talk to regularly, and there is sympathy on both sides, I think, in terms of our monitoring and delivery from Creu Cymru members, and Creu Cymru actually monitoring the way we respond as well. So, I think, working together, we can improve. I’m sympathetic to it, but we need a sense of reality here in terms of what the cuts actually mean as well.

13:00

I’m just wondering what assessment you've made of the health of classical music and opera in Wales, given the cuts, of course, to the Welsh National Opera and Mid Wales Opera, the current closure of St David’s Hall in Cardiff, and the closure of the Young RWCMD programme. Thank you.

I have regular meeting with the Musicians' Union. I’ve had regular meetings with Helena Gaunt from the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. We don’t fund that, of course. That’s not our responsibility to fund, as with St David’s Hall. We don’t actually fund St David’s Hall, although we do fund some community work that is dependent on that organisation. The same with BBC Cardiff Singer of the World, which has been postponed or pushed forward for a year. We fund, with BBC Cardiff Singer of the World, some community work around that event.

In terms of an assessment, we did do an impact assessment on the effects of the investment review. We also, as part of that then, introduced some strategic interventions, and part of that was in traditional music—not in classical music at that point in time—and that work is ongoing. And we are aware of the pressures, in particular, in that field. But also, we do support organisations like Sinfonia Cymru, OPRA Cymru, et cetera, et cetera. So, it’s not a one-size-fits-all, but we did have to make some really difficult decisions during our investment review.

Diolch. Os caf i jest fynd â ni gam yn ôl i rai o’r pethau rydych chi wedi sôn amdanynt. Roeddech chi’n sôn yn gynharach ynglŷn â gostyngiadau i raglenni o ran iechyd ac ati, a lle ddylai’r cyllid ddod. Mae hon yn drafodaeth sydd yn mynd ers Deddf cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, ond, eto, mae o i weld nad ydyn ni ddim pellach ymlaen. Ydy hwnna’n rhywbeth rydych chi eisiau ei weld yn cael—mae gennym ni Weinidog newydd rŵan, er enghraifft—ei flaenoriaethu a dod i’r afael â fo, neu ydych chi’n poeni bod y toriadau yma’n golygu bod rhai o’r pethau gwych sy’n cael eu gwneud o ran y sector hwn, o ran iechyd, iechyd meddwl, addysg ac ati, yn mynd ar goll oherwydd y toriadau rydyn ni’n eu gweld?

Thank you. If I could take us just a step back to some of the things that you’ve already spoken about. You mentioned earlier the reductions that have happened to programmes in terms of the health aspect, and where funding could come from. This is a discussion that’s been going on since the future generations Act, but, again, it doesn’t seem like we’re much further forward. Do you think that’s something that you’d like to see—we have a new Minister now, for example—being prioritised, or are you concerned that these cuts mean that some of those excellent things that are done in this sector, in terms of health, mental health, education and so on, might get lost because of the cuts that we have been seeing?

Dwi’n meddwl mai un o beryglon mawr y toriadau yw y bydd rhai o’r pethau sydd efallai’n cael eu gweld fel ymylol, ond sydd mor bwysig i weithgaredd—. Er enghraifft, os oes rhywun yn rhedeg canolfan, yn gwneud gwaith yn y gymuned, ond, o ran cyllid, ac o ran iechyd busnes y ganolfan, beth sy’n bwysig yw cael pobl i ddod mewn i weld sioeau, wel mae yna beryg bydd y gwaith cymunedol yna efallai yn cael ei weld fel rhywbeth fydd yn anfforddiadwy. A dyna ble dwi yn poeni. Bydd yna impact yn natur yr hyn sydd yn cael ei gynnig, a rhai o’r prosiectau yna fydd y cyntaf i fynd ar goll, o bosib. Dwi’n meddwl ei bod hi'n werth inni gael y drafodaeth yna o ran Deddf cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, oherwydd os ydyn ni o ddifri am gefnogi diwylliant, mae’n rhaid inni, felly, ei ariannu, a ffeindio modd, a ffeindio lefel, i'w ariannu yn deg, yn fy marn i.

I think one of the great risks arising from the cuts is that some of the things that are seen as being marginal, but are so important to the activities—. If one, for example, is running a venue or a centre, doing work in the community, but, in terms of funding, in terms of the health of the business of the venue, it’s about getting people in to see shows, well, there’s a risk that that community work will be seen as something that is unaffordable. And that’s where I have concerns that there will be an impact on the nature of what is being provided. And some of those projects will be the first to be lost, perhaps. I think it’s worth us having this conversation in terms of the the future generations Act, because if we are serious about supporting culture and the arts, we need to fund it, and find a level of funding that is fair, in my view.

Ydych chi yn pryderu, o ran cyfranogiad, bod yna risg ei bod hi'n mynd yn llai cynhwysol? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae Cymru wedi bod yn fodel i nifer o wledydd eraill yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf o ran cyfranogiad ac ymestyn allan. Ydych chi'n poeni bod yna risg bod diwylliant yn mynd i fynd yn fwy elitaidd unwaith eto, a bod i'r lleiafrif sy'n gallu ei fforddio, yn hytrach nac i'r rheini lle rydyn ni wedi trio sicrhau bod diwylliant i bawb, megis Raymond Williams?

Are you concerned, in terms of participation, that there’s a risk that that might become less inclusive? Because Wales has been a model for a number of other countries over recent years in terms of participation and reaching out to communities. Are you concerned that there's a risk that culture will become more elitist once again, and that it will be for the minority who can afford it, rather than for those where we have tried to ensure that culture is for everyone, like Raymond Williams?

13:05

Wel, mae yna risg. Mae'n naturiol bod yna risg yr aiff e'n elitaidd, yn yr ystyr y bydd yna bwysau ychwanegol ar godi prisiau tocynnau, er mwyn gwneud pethau yn fforddiadwy, er mwyn rhoi pethau yn eu blaen. Rŷn ni'n gwybod, o siarad â gwahanol ganolfannau, fod pobl yn fwy dewisol bellach yn faint maen nhw'n gwario a sut maen nhw'n gwario. Beth sydd hefyd yn digwydd yw bod pobl eisiau gwybod yn union beth maen nhw'n mynd i gael am eu harian ac eisiau sicrwydd llwyr fod yr hyn maen nhw'n ei gael yn mynd i fod yn werth am arian. Beth mae'n ei olygu, wedyn, yw bod canolfannau yn mynd yn fwy diogel o ran natur y gwaith, ac efallai bydd llai o gyfleoedd i ysgrifenwyr newydd, a llai o gyfleoedd i waith newydd, boed yn gerddoriaeth glasurol neu boed yn farddoniaeth neu beth bynnag, oherwydd mae'n bwysig cael y bobl yna drwy'r drws ac i gael cynulleidfaoedd mawr. Beth sydd yn digwydd yw'r margins—beth sy'n cael ei wasgu ar y margins—a dwi yn poeni bydd y gwaith cyfranogol yna, a'r gwaith da rŷn ni wedi'i wneud yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, yn cael ei wasgu. Gwnawn ni ein gorau glas i sicrhau ei fod e ddim, o ran ein gwariant ni fel cyngor celfyddydau, ond fe fydd e'n anodd. Bydd pob elfen o'n gwariant ni, dwi'n meddwl, yn cael ei gwasgu.

Well, there is a risk. It's natural that there's a risk it will become elitist, in the sense that there will additional pressure on raising ticket prices, to make things affordable, to put things on. We know, from talking with various venues, that people are more choosy now in terms of how much they spend and how they spend. What is also happening is that people want to know exactly what they're going to get for their money, and they want complete certainty that what they're going to get is going to be value for money. What that means, then, is that venues become more safe in terms of the nature of their work, and perhaps there will be fewer opportunities for new writers, fewer opportunities for new work, whether that's classical music or whether it's poetry or whatever it may be, because it's important to get those people through the door and to have large audiences. What does is happen is the margins—what's pressed at the margins—and I am concerned that that participatory work, and the good work that we've done in the past few years, could feel the pinch. We will do our best to make sure that that doesn't happen, in terms of our spending as the arts council, but that will be difficult. Every element of our spending, I think, will feel the pinch.

Yn amlwg, nôl ym mis Mai eleni, mi fuoch chi'n eithaf di-flewyn-ar-dafod efo Beti a'i Phobl. Er enghraifft, roeddech chi'n galw am sgwrs genedlaethol. Roeddech chi'n pwysleisio difrifoldeb y sefyllfa. Oes yna rywun wedi gwrando ar y ble yna? Ydych chi'n gweld bod y Llywodraeth yn sylweddoli difrifoldeb y sefyllfa a'r hyn rydych chi'n rhybuddio o ran beth sydd yn cael ei golli, a beth ydy'r risg o'r pethau eraill bydd yn cael eu colli os nad ydyn ni'n rhoi'r flaenoriaeth i ddiwylliant?

Clearly, back in May of this year, you were very open on Beti a'i Phobl. For example, you asked for a national conversation. You emphasised the seriousness of the situation that we're facing. Has anyone listened to that plea? Are you seeing that the Government is realising how serious the situation is, and the seriousness of your warnings in terms of what is being lost, and what the risks are in terms of the other things that will be lost if we don't give priority to culture?

Dwi'n meddwl bod y Llywodraeth wedi cytuno â'r hyn roeddwn i'n ei ddweud o ran yr ariannu sydd wedi bod ers 2010, er enghraifft. Mae yna dorri wedi bod ers 2010. Roedden ni'n cael £35 miliwn gan y Llywodraeth bryd hynny ac rŷn ni i lawr i £30 miliwn nawr, sy'n ryw 40 y cant mewn termau real. Felly, mae yna dderbyn bod hwnna yn ddadansoddiad cywir. Dwi'n meddwl gwnaethon nhw tsiecio'r ffigurau ac mae yna dderbyn.

O ran effaith hynny, mae hwnna yn rhywbeth—. Amser a ddengys, dwi'n meddwl. Dwi'n cwrdd â'r Gweinidog prynhawn yma. Byddaf yn gwneud y dadleuon ac yn cael trafodaeth adeiladol gyda'r Gweinidog newydd y prynhawn yma ar hynny o beth, ond amser a ddengys. Fe gawsom ni sesiwn drafod yn yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol. Rŷn ni hefyd wedi comisiynu economic impact report, sef effaith ein gwariant ni yn economaidd yng Nghymru—mae'n anodd dweud hynny; mae'n ddrwg gen i—ac fe fyddwn ni'n lansio hwnna fel rhan o'n sgwrs genedlaethol tua chanol neu ddiwedd yr hydref.

I think that the Government has agreed with what I was saying in terms of the funding that there's been since 2010, for example. There have been cuts since 2010. We were getting £35 million from the Government at that point and we're down to £30 million now, which is about 40 per cent in real terms. So, there is acceptance that that is a correct assessment. I think they checked the figures and they have accepted that.

In terms of the effect of that, that is something—. Time will tell, I think. I'm meeting the Minister this afternoon. I will make my case and will have a constructive discussion with the new Minister this afternoon on that, but time will tell. We did have a discussion session in the National Eisteddfod. We have also commissioned an economic impact report , which will be on the effects of our spending economically in Wales—that's difficult to pronounce; I'm sorry—and we will launch that as part of our national conversation towards the middle or the end of the autumn.

Iawn. Diolch. Gwnawn ni symud nôl at Laura.

Right. Thank you. We'll move back to Laura.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Mr Rhys, sorry, what support other than financial does the arts council provide to venues as valuable as, for example, the Blackwood Miners' Institute, that of course are at risk of closure? You've just been talking about the well-being of future generations Act, so bearing that in mind and the importance of that and the negative impact on the community and beyond, I was just wondering if we could have your comments on that. Thank you.

The Blackwood Miners' Institute, we've been in constant discussions with them, with the staff there, with the chair of the advisory group, and with members of Caerphilly council. I had a meeting with Caerphilly council on Monday and I've also accepted an invitation to go and meet the staff in Blackwood. If it's not next week, it will be in the following week. The Blackwood situation—. We discovered there was an issue because the arts manager left and then they failed to re-employ, and then suddenly they weren't going to fill that role. That sent off the alarm bells for us, but we've had meetings since with Caerphilly.

The support we give the staff is to know that we are advocating on their behalf, and we're going to see them next week. We are also helping their chair of the advisory group in terms of liaising with the staff. I think it's quite an intricate position. They've obviously had to—. And this is all in the public domain—I'm sure it is. They've had to pause their plans there due to advice they got from the Charity Commission. It was something that we raised with them, actually, in a discussion, but others did as well, in terms of that, as trustees, I think the council cabinet were the trustees, and the question is whether it's appropriate, as a trustee of a charity, that you can make decisions on the funding of that charity. So, what they decided to do was to seek further legal advice on that, which actually—. They had an original timetable, if the cabinet had agreed, to mothball the institute by Christmas. We responded to the consultation and we've been quite strong in our views that that should not happen. This pause for legal advice might suggest that that time frame now is not achievable. The one thing we're asking the council and the staff to do is to look at whether we can use this time to look at a future funding model that doesn't include mothballing or closing the organisation in any way or form, because in our experience, very few mothballed venues or organisations actually reopen. There are examples, but they're few and far between. So, it's quite an intricate position, but in recent meetings with Caerphilly council, I must confess that they've been quite open with us. I think there were three things that the cabinet had to consider: one was do nothing; one was mothballing; and one was to explore and to seek additional funding models.

I think the other thing that happened with Blackwood as well is that I think that there was an element of levelling-up money. I think there was £10,000 on the table to appoint a consultant to look at alternative funding models for the institute, and that hasn't yet been explored. So, we're trying our very best to suggest that we do explore that, because it's a very valuable organisation. Interestingly as well—. Sorry, this is quite a long answer, but interestingly as well, in terms of audiences, in terms of participation, they are above the national average, really. They are doing really well. And it was such a disappointment to us, because we looked at them as, 'Oh, that's a really good example. That's a really good community venue that's doing really well.' And then suddenly, out of the blue somewhat, we got the news about the consideration of future funding. So, I don't think I've said anything that's not in the public domain, but that's the situation.

13:10

Just for Members to be aware, we are almost into our final quarter of an hour, so if we could try to be as concise as possible, that would be useful, so that we can get through as many areas as possible. Thank you.

Yes, just a supplementary on the same question, just to come back saying that, yes, you're right, it was a shock to everyone. The 6,000 signatures in 24 hours prove that, I think—the protest against it. In terms of the support, then, are you saying—? You're having meetings with the council, so are you using your expertise to say to them, 'This would be the best thing to do', for example?

Yes, we are. In the meeting on—I think it was Monday—. In the most recent meeting, then—it was this week—we also discussed the possibility—. They need some help in terms of running the organisation, because they haven't got an experienced arts manager at this point in time. They're going into a really busy autumn schedule, so we are offering our advice and suggesting from who or where they might find some help. So, there's an element of practical help there as well as well-being help in terms of listening to staff concerns as well. 

Okay. Thank you. To what extent has the arts council sought to raise additional funding, for example, commercially or from trusts, foundations, that sort of thing, to mitigate the impact of declining public funding?

That question came up quite recently on radio discussions. What we are finding at the moment is that finding additional commercial money or money from trusts and foundations is more challenging now than it's ever been, because the economic crisis also affects individual sponsors and companies, and they are somewhat reticent to support. And for trusts and foundations, and for things like the community lottery, et cetera, the demand has gone through the roof. So, there's a demand issue. There's also an issue of whether we centrally, as an arts council, actually actively explore trusts and foundations and be seen as competing against the sector, who are also going for the same money. We do have a relationship with the Baring Foundation, however, and we've got a three-year understanding with Barings that they bring money to the table. We’ve got money to the table in terms of young people and mental health, and that is something we’re quite proud of, but we’ve got that relationship with Barings and then the money is distributed out into the sector.

13:15

Okay. Forgive me, I'm afraid we're going to have to move on because we only have quarter of an hour left. Are you happy for us to move on? Yes.

Fe wnawn ni symud at Carolyn.

We'll move to Carolyn.

Well, we've got quite a few questions. Chair, I'm going to come to you: is there anything that you want us to capture, really, that hasn't been already—?

You touched on the arts being statutory and creative industries and culture, so, what would that look like, do you think? And how could we go about that?

Well, statutory responsibility would mean that there would have to be far more scrutiny and discussion in terms of local authorities' spending on the arts and arts provision, and it would mean a level of protection in the sense that things couldn't be sort of cut as the first place to cut. So, that’s how it will look, I think, in terms of protection on a local level.

And I know local authorities, like you say, they tried to use the well-being of future generations Act, saying it's statutory, but there were arguments and push back. But on the libraries, there's certain legislation going back quite a few years, which they believe make it statutory.

I think libraries are protected. I think then there's a discussion about the level of spend on actual library provision—I think there's some flexibility in there—but it certainly is protected.

Thank you. Eisiau deall oeddwn i o ran y cylch gwaith rydych chi'n ei dderbyn o dan Lywodraeth Cymru. Yn amlwg, mae hwnna'n eang a dydy o ddim wedi lleihau er bod eich arian chi wedi lleihau. Felly, faint o ddeialog sydd yna efo Llywodraeth Cymru ar beth sydd yn realistig i chi allu ei ddarparu, a beth ydy rhai o'r pethau rydych chi'n methu â'u gwneud rŵan oherwydd y pwysau sydd arnoch chi i fod yn cefnogi a datblygu'r celfyddydau, oherwydd dwi'n siŵr y byddwch chi ddim yn gallu gwneud mwy efo llai o adnodd?

Thank you. I wanted to understand in terms of the remit that you've received from Welsh Government. Obviously, that's very broad and it hasn't reduced, even though your funding has reduced. So, how much dialogue is there with the Welsh Government in terms of what's realistic for you to be able to provide, and what are some of the things that you can't do now because of the pressure on you to support and develop the arts, because I'm sure you that you won't be able to do more with less resource?

Na, mae hwnna'n berffaith wir. Dŷn ni'n sicr ddim yn mynd i fedru gwneud mwy ac mae yna ddadl y byddai rhai yn dweud y dylem ni wneud llai, ond ariannu beth ŷn ni'n ei wneud yn well. Ac mae hwnna'n gwestiwn anodd inni ddelio ag e, ond mae e'n gwestiwn.

Yn ffurfiol gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, mae yna ddau gyfarfod gyda'r Gweinidog a minnau a'r cadeirydd, y flwyddyn. Mae yna bedwar cyfarfod chwarterol lle rŷn ni'n edrych ar beth rŷn ni'n dweud: dyma beth rŷn ni'n dweud ŷn ni'n mynd i'w wneud, dyma le rŷn ni wedi cyrraedd—y QMMs, fel petai. Dwi yn meddwl—ac mae yna rai cyrff eraill yn yr un cwch ac yn gofyn yr un cwestiwn—ei fod yn gwbl ddibynnol ar beth fydd y setliad ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Ond os na fydd yna gynnydd, dwi'n credu bydd yn rhaid inni wedyn ofyn ar lefel uchel i gael sgwrs ynglŷn â beth yw ystyr y remit letter bellach, a beth yw'r gofynion a'r disgwyliadau a'r gwaith ychwanegol sydd ynddo fe.

No, that's perfectly true. We're certainly not going to be able to do more and there is an argument that some would say that we should be doing less, but funding what we do better. And that is a very difficult question for us to deal with, but it is a question indeed.

Formally with the Welsh Government, there are two meetings with the Minister and me and the chair, every year. There are four quarterly meetings where we look at what we say we're saying: this is what we say we're going to do, this is where we've reached—the QMMs, as it were. I do think—and there are some other bodies in the same boat and asking the same question—that it's entirely dependent on what the settlement will be for next year. But if there isn't an increase, I think that we will then have to ask at a high level to have that conversation about what the meaning of the remit letter is now, and what are the requirements and expectations and the additional work in that letter.

What else could the Welsh Government do, besides funding? Is there anything else that could be done to help?

Well, there are a couple of things, I think. Welsh Government—. I've referred already to the arts becoming a statutory responsibility—I would ask Welsh Government to look at that. I would also ask Welsh Government to look at the arts in the round, if you like. I've been asked in this committee, I think, in the past, what we're doing in terms of partnership working. I'd like to see more partnership working within Government in one sense, so that when we are discussing our potential budget, we look at our contribution across departments, rather than in just one single department.

I'd like to consider whether it's possible in the longer term to look at funding over a three-year cycle, rather than going from one year to the next. I know that that asks bigger questions, but I'd like to see that being considered. I'd also like to see, within Welsh Government, in terms of spend, more flexibility so that we can carry more spend over into other financial years, because that would give us a better chance of being strategic in spending that money. And also, I'd like to hear a statement from Government about the importance of the arts in Wales, and a commitment.

Just coming in on that, so, you've got a new Minister who's in charge of skills. He comes under the business portfolio now. And in Ireland—we just went on a visit—they see the arts as part of business, basically, bringing money into Ireland and being really important that way. So, perhaps we could have that discussion with the new Minister in that area, and you too when you meet with him later.

13:20

Absolutely. We would welcome that. 

Os caf i jest ddod mewn ar hynny: heb sôn am unigolion yma, ydych chi'n credu bod angen inni fod yn dyrchafu rôl diwylliant o fewn Llywodraeth? Oherwydd mae o'n newid o fod yn Weinidog i Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, ac ati. Ydy o'n eich pryderu chi i weld ei fod o'n newid o lle mae o? Oes yna wahaniaeth pan mae yna rywun sydd yn Weinidog llawn neu'n Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn arwain y portffolio o ran y statws mae hynny'n ei roi?

If I may come in on that: not to mention individuals here, but do you believe that we need to be upgrading the role of culture in the Government? Because it changes from a Minister to a Cabinet Secretary, and so on. Does it concern you to see it changing? Is there a difference when someone's a full Minister or a Cabinet Secretary leading the porfolio, in terms of the status that that provides? 

Mae e'n hollbwysig, dwi'n meddwl. Mae e'n signal pwysig. Mae'r statws yn bwysig, ond hefyd, gwrandewir ar Weinidogion llawn yn fwy, dwi'n meddwl; dwi ddim wedi bod yna, does gen i ddim profiad fy hun o hynny, ond fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod Gweinidogion llawn yn cario mwy o bwysau yn y Cabinet. Pan wnes i gyfeirio yn gyhoeddus at y toriadau am y tro cyntaf, fe ges i wybod bod rhai gwleidyddion, yn sicr, yn ddiolchgar ein bod ni wedi gwneud hynny, ei bod hi'n anodd weithiau cael y llais yna ar y lefel briodol o fewn Llywodraeth. Felly, byddwn i yn croesawu cael Gweinidog llawn, yn sicr.

It is crucial, I think. It’s an important signal. The status is important, but also full Ministers are listened to more, I think; I haven’t been there, I don’t have any personal experience of that, but my understanding is that full Ministers carry more weight in the Cabinet. When I did refer publicly to the cuts for the first time, I was told that some politicians, certainly, were thankful that I’d done that, that it was difficult sometimes getting that voice out there at the appropriate level in Government. So, I would welcome having a full Minister, certainly.

Diolch. Carolyn, because we're short on time, do you want to focus on 18 and 19?

What are the relative merits of funding national companies via the arts council, as is the case in Wales, and directly from the Government, as is the case in Scotland? Funding comes through you in Wales and directly from Government in Scotland.

This will be a matter of policy, obviously. I think the argument that has been discussed in the past is that if the national companies are funded directly from Government, there is an additional strain of how do you make sure that you have a strategic arts policy across every element of the arts in Wales, and having the nationals and everyone else within the same strategy makes it clearer in terms of giving guidance, in terms of impact, in terms of reaching the audience you want to reach. We have to have an all-inclusive arts policy for Wales.

I’d actually take it further here: I don’t want to repeat myself, but things like health and education come into that as well. That’s part of the argument for the nationals. I think Scotland is not in a good place in terms of the arts currently. I think that there are strains there. Recently, the Scottish Government withdrew funding for individual artists. Creative Scotland then said, ‘Okay, we can’t fund them.’ The Scottish Government then changed their mind. There’s also been a promise in Scotland of an additional £100 million, I think, over the next five-year term, but my colleagues in Scotland say they’ve not seen any of that money. So, Scotland is probably not the best example to use at this point in time.

Is it less bureaucratic? Sometimes for arm’s-length companies it can be. And can you access other grants such as lottery grants or direct them to them better, do you think, than Government can? 

Most certainly, I would have thought, but I’ve not done any in-depth research into that.

That might be helpful, to help them access grants. Just one more question: to what extent do the Welsh Government’s draft culture priorities, which were consulted on over the summer, help cultural bodies mitigate the impact of reduced funding?

Sorry, can you repeat that question?

To what extent do the Welsh Government’s draft culture policies, which were consulted on over the summer, help cultural bodies mitigate the impact of reduced funding?

I think it’s too early to say on that. I think there was an element of disappointment that it wasn’t a strategy and that it became a set of principles. I think the sector thought that was slightly unambitious. But it’s a piece of work that is reflective of the current economic climate that we’re all working in, I think. So, it’s too early to say whether it helps to mitigate. We’ll wait and see on that, I think.

We have five minutes left of the session.

Dw i’n mynd i symud at yr oriel gelf gyfoes genedlaethol. Dwi'n gwybod bod Laura a Heledd eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn. Mi wnaf i ofyn am un cwestiwn gan Laura, ac un cwestiwn gan Heledd, fel bod amser yn y pum munud, os yw hynny'n iawn. Roedd Laura eisiau dod i mewn yn gyntaf.

I’m going to move to the national contemporary art gallery for Wales. I know that Laura and Heledd want to come in on that. I’ll ask for one question from Laura, and one from Heledd, so that we have time in the five minutes left to answer them. Laura wants to go first.

13:25

Thank you, Chair. What is the current status of the arts council's involvement with the national contemporary art gallery project, please?

We sit on the steering group, along with the llyfrgell genedlaethol and Amgueddfa Cymru. There is an independent chair. There are staff associated with the project, some of whom work through Amgueddfa Cymru. There are two members of staff that work through us in terms of that project. Yes, that's our involvement, I think.

Yn amlwg, mi fuodd yna gyhoeddiad o ran peidio â chael oriel gelf genedlaethol fel adeilad angor. Mae yna amwysedd ar hyn o bryd o ran parhad y prosiect o ran arian. Mae’r cyllid yn dod i ben o fewn y flwyddyn ariannol yma, o’r hyn dwi’n ei ddeall. Pa drafodaethau sydd wedi bod o ran cynaladwyedd ariannol y prosiect o ran y buddsoddiad sydd wedi bod? Beth fyddech chi’n deisyfu gweld y Llywodraeth yn ymrwymo iddo fo? Oherwydd mae’n dod yn amlwg nad ydy’r adnoddau gan y cyngor celfyddydau, Amgueddfa Cymru a’r llyfrgell genedlaethol i barhau ac ymrwymo’n llwyr i ariannu £400,000 y flwyddyn.

Clearly, there was an announcement in terms of not having a contemporary art gallery as an anchor institution or building. There is ambiguity at the moment in terms of the continuation of the project when it comes to funding. The funding comes to an end within this financial year, as far as I understand it. So, what discussions have there been in terms of the financial sustainability of the project with regard to the investment that has been made? What would you want to see the Government committing to? Because it's becoming clear that the resources perhaps aren't held by Amgueddfa Cymru, the arts council and the national library to continue and fully commit to funding £400,000 a year. 

Gallwn ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau ddim ariannu £400,000 y flwyddyn i’r oriel gelf genedlaethol. Dyw e ddim yn bosib i ni gyda’r toriadau rydym ni wedi eu hwynebu. Dwi’n meddwl ei fod e’n broject sydd mewn lle da iawn ar hyn o bryd. Byddai'r gwaith mae'r staff wedi ei wneud, a'r gwaith digideiddio sydd wedi digwydd, ddim wedi digwydd oni bai am yr oriel gelf. Mae yna waith cyfalaf yn mynd yn ei flaen i wella hyd at wyth neu naw oriel ledled Cymru fydd yn gwella’r profiad i’r gynulleidfa. Bydd e’n golygu bydd yna fwy o bosibiliadau i gael gwell safon gwaith celf ledled Cymru’n cael ei ddangos yn yr amgueddfeydd. Felly, mae yna lot fawr o bethau da wedi digwydd.

Hefyd nawr, wrth gwrs, mae yna weithgaredd wedi digwydd o gwmpas y project. Felly, mae e mewn lle da. Ond mae pob un partner rownd y bwrdd wedi bod yn gyson yn dweud bod angen parhad i ryw fath o nawdd gan y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod y project yn parhau. Mae hwnna wedi bod yn gyson ar hyd y daith, ac felly mae yna drafodaethau. Roeddwn i mewn cyfarfod grŵp llywio peth amser yn ôl, ac mae’r Llywodraeth wedi gofyn am fwy o fanylion. Mae’r llif yn mynd tuag at yr amgueddfa fel y prif bartner yn y dyfodol, wedi 2025, oherwydd beth sydd ei angen yw sicrhau—. Mi oedd yr amgueddfa a’r llyfrgell gen yn benthyg eu gwaith gynt, ond nawr bod yna oriel gelf genedlaethol mewn cyfres o orielau rownd Cymru, mae’r gwaith yna’n mynd i fod yn dipyn fwy, onid ydy? Bydd e'n dipyn fwy, tipyn fwy o bwysau. Beth sy’n bwysig rywsut yw ein bod ni, ar ôl y gwariant yma sydd wedi bod ar yr orielau, yn gallu cael rhyw fath o system ddosbarthu sy’n gynaliadwy, rili—

We as the arts council can't fund £400,000 a year for the national art gallery. That isn't possible for us to do with the cuts that we've faced. I think that's it's a project that's in a very good place at the moment. The work that the staff have done, the digitalisation work that's been done, wouldn't have happened without the art gallery. There's capital work going on now to improve up to eight or nine galleries across Wales, which will improve the experience for the audiences. It will mean that there are more possibilities to have higher quality of art being shown in in the galleries around Wales. So, quite a few good things have happened.

Also now, of course, there is activity that's happened around the project. So, it's in a good place. But every partner around the board has been consistent in saying that we need some sort of continuity of sponsorship from the Government to make sure that the project continues. That has been consistent along the journey we've been on, and, therefore, there are discussions. I was at a steering group meeting a while ago, and the Government have asked for more details. The flow is heading towards the museum as the main partner in the future, after 2025, because what's needed is to ensure—. The museum and the national library did lend out their work, previously, but now that there's a national art gallery in a series of galleries around Wales, that work is going to be quite a bit more significant, with more pressure. What's important is that, somehow, after the spending that's been on the galleries, we can have some kind of distribution system that's sustainable—

A fyddech chi’n parhau’n bartner yn hynny? Ydych chi’n gweld rôl i’r cyngor celfyddydau yn hynny?

Will you continue to be a partner for that? Do you see a role for the arts council in that?

Ddim o reidrwydd. Mae yna rai pethau’n cael eu trafod o ran os ydy e’n aros fel project, a oes yna grŵp llywio ychwanegol ac a fydden ni’n rhan o hwnna. Mae’n perthynas ni, wrth gwrs, gyda’r orielau celf, ni sy’n eu hariannu nhw. Digwydd bod, mae pob un, dwi’n meddwl, yn rhan o’n portffolio ariannu amlflwyddyn ni, felly mae’n gwneud sens i ni fod yn ymwneud, ond nid ni fydd yn arwain arno fe. Ond gallai hynna newid.

Not necessarily. Some things are being discussed in terms of whether it remains as a project, whether there's an additional steering group needed. Maybe we'd be part of that. Our relationship, of course, is with the art galleries—it's us who funds them. As it happens, every one of them, I think, is part of the multi-year funding portfolio, so it makes sense for us to be engaged, but it's not us who will lead on that. But that could change.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae’n flin gen i ein bod ni wedi rhedeg mas o amser. Gaf i ddiolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich tystiolaeth y prynhawn yma? Bydd transgript o’r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i wirio ei fod e’n gofnod teg. Bydd yna ychydig o gwestiynau ychwanegol byddwn ni eisiau gofyn mewn ysgrifen dŷn ni ddim wedi cael amser i’w gofyn, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser y prynhawn yma. Dŷn ni wir yn ei werthfawrogi fe.

Thank you very much. I'm afraid we have run out of time. May I thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon? A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record of the proceedings. There will be a few additional questions that we'll want to ask in writing that we haven't had a chance to ask today, but thank you very much for your time this afternoon. We very much appreciate it.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Gwnawn ni fynd i mewn i sesiwn breifat nawr.

Thank you. We will go into private session now.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 13:29 ac 13:44.

The meeting adjourned between 13:29 and 13:44.

13:40
10. Effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gydag Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru (3)
10. Impact of funding reductions for culture and sport: Evidence session with Welsh National Opera (3)

Prynhawn da a chroeso nôl i'n sesiwn. Dŷn ni'n edrych ar effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon, a dŷn ni'n cynnal sesiwn dystiolaeth gydag Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru. Gwnaf i ofyn i'n tystion gyflwyno'u hunain ar gyfer y record, a gwnaf i fynd yn gyntaf at Christopher Barron, sydd gyda ni yn yr ystafell.

Good afternoon and welcome back to our session. We're once again looking at the impact of funding reductions on culture and sport, and this evidence session is with the Welsh National Opera. I will ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, and I'll go first of all to Christopher Barron, who is here with us in the room.

13:45

I'm Christopher Barron, I'm the interim general director. I've been here since January and I finish at the end of September.

I'm glad that we were able to have you with us before you left.

I'm pleased to be here.

Thank you very much. We'll move to Adele Thomas, who is online.

Hello. I'm Adele Thomas, I am an opera director and I am the incoming director and chief executive officer, jointly with Sarah Crabtree, of Welsh National Opera.

We'll take a quick technical break a moment, because I think we can hear some interference, so we'll just go private, just for a moment while we sort that out and we'll be right back. I'm just going to wait to hear that we're private.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 13:45 a 13:51.

The meeting adjourned between 13:45 and 13:51.

13:50

Croeso nôl. Mae'n flin gen i am yr oedi yna, ond dŷn ni nôl nawr gyda'n sesiwn ni gydag Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru. Os mae e'n iawn gyda'r ddau ohonoch chi, gwnawn ni symud yn syth at gwestiynau.

Welcome back. I'm sorry about the delay there, but we're back now with our session with Welsh National Opera. If it's okay with both of you, we'll move straight into questions.

If I could ask you both, please, what assessment you would make of the health of classical music and opera specifically in Wales, given the cuts that, obviously, have been seen to Welsh National Opera and Mid Wales Opera, the ongoing pressures in St David's Hall, and what's happened with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and their programme for young people. What would your assessment be of the state of play for classical music and for opera? 

I wonder if Adele would like to lead on that.

The interesting thing is that Wales is not without its incredible amount of talent in these areas, and ultimately, it is the talent that leads the artform. I can really only speak to opera with any authority, but we are not short of singers and the technical staff and the creative driving forces of the medium. However, what I think is inevitable is that, with the current decrease in funding, that situation, this proliferation of talent that Wales has had in the past will inevitably die out. Because without any grass-roots support and without a pathway from grass roots to the very top of the industry available in Wales to our incredible Welsh talent and to international talent, there just will be no pipeline any more. And that, I think, is one of the most scary things, really, about the situation that the industry is in. It's not about where we are now, or about the amazing success that a company like WNO has just had with shows like Death in Venice winning the Sky Arts award recently. That is well and good and marvellous, but the worry is always for the future of the industry and what happens next. And without significant investment—and I think Dafydd mentioned this earlier on in the hearing; it's not a sticking plaster that we're looking for but a long-term commitment to the artform, or to the arts in Wales—then, one day, we will simply wake up and there will be no talent left. I don't know whether Chris wants to say anything that's less emotional than that at this moment in time.

There's a perfect storm at the moment, with the junior departments, with St David's Hall—that's an extra tragedy for WNO, because it uses it, as do many other people, and for the company itself. So, at the moment, in terms of the musical system in Wales, it is reducing at the moment, and that is a true worry.

Just one brief thing: I've worked in all the art forms, and actually, dance people say that dance should be first in school, drama say drama should be first, but actually, it's best that everyone has music, because everyone needs music. And I've come around to that completely clearly; if people can learn music in schools, that is a starting point for so many careers in the arts. And actually, for dancers and ballet dancers, their cue is in the music. Actors nearly all sing. It's a massive change. I just think that whole core business, as Adele has explained, is essential to a rich country.

13:55

Thank you both very much for that. In terms of the crisis facing WNO, could you tell us what figure you would need in order to survive, please?

Yes, I can. Can I just introduce that slightly by putting it the other way around? We are funded by two arts councils. So, that's Arts Council England and the Arts Council of Wales. And so they're two separate contracts. We have two paymasters and two separate requirements to make the company work, and that's actually how it was set up in the early 1970s, was actually that it should be part-funded. And the English story is about touring to the big theatres in England, which the company has always done. And that whole deal was only broken in 2022, very recently, in the last round. So, that's where our perfect storm comes: how do we serve the large theatres in England, which are very expensive to tour to, when you take nearly 200 people on the road, with hotels et cetera, et cetera? So, there is an issue.

When times are—. If I can do this one first. When times are hard, and times are hard all round on public funding, we in Wales now are seeing some results of, if I can say it, devolution. And I do think that that's an item in there. If you're going to cut Opera North in Leeds or WNO in Cardiff, there's a fair old chance, whatever the output of the company, it'll be Opera North in Leeds that actually succeeds, which it has done. So, Opera North in Leeds at the moment receives £2 million a year more than WNO through its joint grants. So, what I would say is that—to answer your question directly—to make a company like this work, you need between £10 million and £12 million a year, and that can keep it going, producing productions that fit—and this is an important one—in WMC, in the millennium centre, because WMC was the prize to the company in 2004, to have this glorious—. It is absolutely glorious. I've loved working in it. It's made for making opera, big shows, and actually to use that venue properly—. It's what I call the Sydney Opera House of Wales. Use it, it's big, it's impressive, it's lovely. And actually, to answer your question, a direct fund of £10 million to £12 million would make the company work.

Thank you very much for that. And so, in terms of what is needed now, in excess of—. I know that the figure of £1 million has been mentioned in some places but not elsewhere. Is £1 million what you would—?

The issue here is whether it's recurring or non-recurring. So, we welcome the help from Welsh Government on the £1.5 million that's going to the Arts Council of Wales, and we're making sure we have a very substantial application to that fund. However, that is a non-recurring help fund to get us through the current transition. Because that's what we're up to at the moment: we're transitioning from a company that turned over £16 million a year to one that's going to turn over roughly £11.5 million. To many, that might sound like a lot of money, but, in terms of opera, it's not. And I think that's—. So, we are looking to how we get through to, I suppose, the next applications to arts councils in the hope that, actually, the national economy, public spending, the public purse, improves. So, the figure of £1.5 million we've been looking at is as an immediate help in terms of getting through next year, which is where we have cash-flow problems, as we reduce the cost overhead of the company. 

The deal goes that we—. Arts Council England gave us money to make the transition: that was the £3.25 million. That has to be spent by next year, and we have to get down to what we call revenue-neutral by the financial year 2026-27. So, our struggle is getting through to 2026-27 and managing the change and actually managing the reduction in personnel, because a lot of that cost is a reduction in personnel.  

Thank you for that. I know that Members are eager come in, but, before, just if I could check, the Arts Council of Wales has an operational resilience fund, which I think is still accepting applications until the end of the month. Have you applied, or will you apply?

We are applying, yes.

So, it has to be in by tomorrow night, and the application will be in, setting out our position, yes.

Right. Thank you very much for confirming that. 

Fe wnawn ni symud at Heledd. 

We'll move to Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. There have been some criticisms of the conditions associated with that £3.25 million from others, which have been shared with us as a committee, just outlining concern around how that does help the long-term aspirations of the WNO. Obviously, it hasn't been resolved in terms of the dual streams of funding, either. We had the Cabinet Secretary, Lesley Griffiths, at the time—

—say that she was going to have urgent discussions with the UK Government. It's been unfortunate in the fact that we've had so many changes here, and also, of course, there have been changes there. You mentioned optimism—that things might get better—but, obviously, your situation is quite urgent now in terms of if you lose members of the chorus, or people leave the profession et cetera, or the orchestra. How concerned are you about what's happening right now and the impact it will have on the WNO, and also in terms of the talent pipeline?

14:00

Thank you. That's a good question. We were given £3.5 million in spring 2022, before I arrived, by Arts Council England, which came from lottery funds, and it was particularly for transitioning the company through to the financial year 2026-27 down to using only its revenue. In the past, it's been using—. So, that's taking a company of 220 people down to currently nearly 180 people, a reduction. So, that is very particular money for enabling the company to get through to a point where it can work at a smaller budget, with a vision for the future, which is what Adele and Sarah were coming along to take us through. I am very concerned about it, absolutely, now. We are in the middle of a compulsory redundancy process at the moment, a consultation process is current, and we'll be losing more people in October. We have two streams of negotiations with unions—that's Equity for the chorus, and the Musicians' Union for the orchestra. We're hoping to strike deals. We need to strike deals with both unions in terms of how much we can afford for the future, in relation to the output for the company in the future. But the cuts are across the board. They're through the administration, through the engagement team, through the orchestra, chorus and the administration. So, actually, the effect is—. It couldn't be taken out of activity, if you get my drift. You couldn't just cut a couple of tour dates; it had to be a fundamental cut across the company. It's just over £4 million of cuts, which we have to enact, the bulk of it, by next summer.

And in terms of the—[Interruption.] Oh, apologies. Yes, please come in.

Sorry, I just wondered whether I could respond to your question, because I think there are two concerns, as one of the people taking the organisation under my leadership next year. There are two concerns, really, that come from the financial position that it's in, and one of them is that Chris has done a brilliant job of trying to find savings that mean that the organisation can survive the next two years, and I think that we'd all agree that, as brilliant as those changes are, the survival is incredibly perilous, because it means stripping the finances to such a level that there is no room for error, and any slip in any direction could really put the company in jeopardy. My concern would be, if that is a situation that carries on longer term, then the company will really face some difficult questions about whether it's sustainable or not. 

And the second thing is that the situation imposed by the conditions of the transition fund mean that the organisation will have to become a smaller organisation and will have to fit a model that is more exemplified by companies like Irish National Opera or Scottish Opera, or Opera North, which Chris has already mentioned, which are all fantastic companies, but this is the Welsh National Opera company. And I think that there is a bigger question here about the national confidence that comes from having a national organisation that is funded adequately and properly, and can, therefore, hit on a level that is worthy of what WNO is capable of, and what Wales can give to the world. So, I just wanted to throw those two points in, in response to your question.

[Inaudible.] This is a very hard strategy going forward. It's a no-choice strategy. But there's a lot of risk in there, going through. This has been—. Just something about WNO: it is the best-known opera company of Britain outside of Britain; it's the one that's travelled the world the most. It's interesting why it is the case, because the reason opera doesn't travel is because it's very expensive, but they've managed to find other people to pay for them to go abroad. It's very clever. They've done it. But they are known around the world. So, if you go to an opera conference in Europe, WNO is the one they know about. And, actually, when you see the quality of the work at the moment—. Actually, as Adele mentioned, Death in Venice, that's just received one award; it's going to get other awards, I know, going forward. It's the quality of the work at the moment, and that's what's terrifying for the company, do we lose that quality of the company, which, in anyone's book, and I've worked for three of them now, is exceptional. 

So, we are very concerned, and the big question the company asked me was, ‘Chris, how do you maintain quality?’, and that's an incredibly hard question, because actually the core of the orchestra—. It's a wonderful orchestra—if I can say this quietly in the corner, which is not quietly in the corner—they're probably the best of the opera orchestras. It's a really fine orchestra and I think that's really important. We're doing our very best to protect the core of the orchestra for the future as we become a reduced-size organization for the future. I'm always optimistic, but actually I have to say the current funding regime is not very optimistic, and I think, as much as we're looking to other opportunities for funding to come in, so is everybody else. It's quite a competitive market on that one.

14:05

So, it wouldn't be an overstatement, then, in terms of what you've just said, that the risk, then, in terms of the international reputation, the quality, may be compromised, in terms of talent development, then, attracting people to be part of the WNO—all of that is at risk currently.

Yes, that's completely correct. You’ve put that absolutely correctly, yes.

Opera is a very expensive medium, and I think there's no way of not looking that straight in the face and facing up to the fact that it is very expensive. And the reason that opera is an expensive medium is because it is so labour intensive, and that is where most of the cost of WNO goes. The orchestra is world class, as Chris has just said. There is a chorus in the organisation that is absolutely phenomenal. But the technical staff are an exceptional team of incredibly skilled people. The craftspeople that work in the organisation—. And I think, through the pandemic and with Brexit and the impact of those—. I'm sure you'll have heard in this committee the impact of that on the ecology of the arts. But, without that incredibly skilled workforce, it's not just WNO that will suffer, but it is the entire ecology of the Welsh creative industries, because those people do go between working at the WMC and the Welsh National Opera. They train the next generation of artists who then go on to work for the BBC, to make films, to work in design and craft departments of those organisations. Some of them will be freelancers who are dependent on that work, and freelancers make up 70 per cent of the industry in theatre and opera. So, it's a huge workforce, and it's a workforce that is worth billions across the UK, and I would imagine an extraordinary amount within Wales.

So, once you untangle the ecology of this, then the whole thing falls apart a little bit, and WNO being able to operate on the scale that it has done in the past has meant that it's been able to employ more of that skilled workforce, and so I think the impact will be way beyond WNO, actually, and we'll start to feel the lack of those skilled workers in various other industries as time goes on.

Heledd, because Laura has to leave in a few minutes, would you be happy for Laura to have some questions now, and then we'll come back to you? Is that all right? 

Just following on from what you said, it's arguably very important that everyone does everything that they can to protect the WNO, for all the reasons you outlined, and the chorus particularly. To what extent has the WNO collaborated with other institutions and perhaps sought to raise additional funding—you've already mentioned it—commercially and from trust foundations, that sort of thing, to try and mitigate the impact of the declining public funding? Thank you.

On the fundraising front, it's had a good background. There are very loyal donors out there, and they are loyal still at the moment, and of course we're trying to expand that as much as we can through whatever campaign that is, whether it’s through trust foundations, through legacies. Legacies are an important thing. But that's all about our audience, having that audience there, because the audience—they're the people who love us, they're the people who are interested, and they're the people who might want to part with some cash to help us on that one.

In terms of collaboration with other companies, we share productions with the other opera companies. So, we have a substantial repertoire of operas we own, which are stored here in Cardiff. It's an extraordinary list of very successful productions. We hire them out. So, the working with other people is ingrained in us. We know how to do that, and we know how to make it efficient in that way. So, this current production of Il Trittico at the moment, that's a co-production with Scottish Opera. So that was an opportunity for two companies to share the cost of it. Otherwise it's just too hard to do; it's such a big, big opera to do in that way.

So, looking for those other opportunities I think is crucial to us. We work very closely with—and I think it's Adele's point as well—the music college. Just to know, a lot of our people work there as well. They are teaching there and actually bringing people on, and we're watching the whole time—where are the new voices coming? So, our associates programme—. There are three—I think two of them are Welsh speakers this year—come forward, they're all from Wales, they are now in the company for a year learning the trade, coming up the ladder, working on productions, having their own opportunities for growth. It's kind of enmeshed in society and musical society as a company, and I think that's something it does very well. 

On the orchestral front, I am looking where I can, or, certainly, our head of orchestra is looking where can it work elsewhere, where can it find other commercial opportunities. The country's quite rich in symphony orchestras already, so not everyone needs another symphony orchestra, but one has to try and find other ways by which that skill base is maintained, and that is one way of doing it, as well as doing the productions we ourselves do.

14:10

Okay, thank you very much. What is the current status of your proposals to reshape the company in light of the reduced funding? 

So, we're on a path at the moment by which next summer we'll have reduced about £3.5 million-worth of value in the company. So, that's through personnel, cuts in touring, cuts in productions. So, it is the first heave. After that first £3.5 million by next summer—and that's what's supported by the transition fund—there is another £1 million to find. So, there's another £1 million in the pot that we need to take out of the budget of WNO by the year 2026-27. So, there's another 18 months of fairly gruelling change to get ourselves to a position by which we can work. 

Can I just give you a worry in the middle of that, which is that if we reduce much more activity, particularly in England, I see that as a threat to the company, because, actually, when we go back next time to England for the next NPO round, the next funding round, if it's much reduced, that'll be a view taken on it? Actually, the funding is specifically for touring, but yet it supports the machine that makes opera in the first place. So, that is a big risk concern I have to make sure that we do maintain that relationship in England, and maintain that relationship in providing opera for those large theatres of the south-west. 

That does sound a concern. How are you as an organisation seeking to mitigate the impact of funding reductions on people with protected characteristics and lower socioeconomic status? Thank you. 

We're utterly committed to that—there's no doubt about it—but there will be a level of reduction in what we call our programme engagement—so, the learning programme, and that does impact on everyone, including people with protected characteristics. There is a level of it. But the company is a very determined company. We were all brought up in equal opportunities—that's the background to our arts council funding. We're very wedded to that whole world of inclusion. That is second nature to the company, and I think that doesn't go away at all. I think the company is very concerned about that. 

Diolch, Laura. I know Heledd wants to come back in with some more questions on funding. Could I just check, before Heledd comes back in, as, Christopher, you just said that the company would need an extra £1 million to be found in savings? Earlier, you said there was £1.5 million that was needed in immediate help. So, which one would it be?  

The £1.5 million takes us through next year into the 2026 year to give us time to actually reduce, to take that extra £1 million out of the organisation. So, it's pro tem money—it's more transition money we're looking for. 

And that's what you'll be applying to the operational resilience fund for. 

Yes, exactly that. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. If I may, just looking in terms of the long term, I know your challenge is short term, and solutions, but, obviously, this dual funding stream, the fact that you're reliant on two different Governments and two different Governments' priorities, is that something that you have been discussing with Arts Council of Wales and the Welsh Government in terms of—? You are, after all, the Welsh National Opera. We do have devolution here in Wales. We have a cultural strategy being developed. Are you looking to the Welsh Government to provide, perhaps, more stable funding or to support you so that you're not as reliant on two Governments? Or is your aim that we try and get Arts Council England to acknowledge their role and to safeguard that funding? Do you have a preference, or is it just a matter of, 'Please give us funding so we can continue' at the moment?

All those points make a lot of sense. We're in conversation with both arts councils the whole time. So, the office we deal with particularly is Bristol, but I do work closely with the senior management of the arts council in London. So, they all know the situation. Actually, the arts council in London, of course, cut us by 35 per cent, so they really do know our story; it's a really important thing, that. 

If I could do the long term—what I think your question is about—I think Wales has to really adopt this company, going forward. If it's going to be there, Wales really needs to find a way of supporting it with stability. You mentioned the word 'stability', and that's one of the worst things in our industry, full stop, but, in this particular process, we need to get the company to a stable place so it can't really work hard under Adele and Sarah in the future. For me, that's so important. But I do think, going forward, we'll fight very hard for funds from London. I suspect, given the situation in general, I would ask you, the Welsh Government, to take the company on board and give it every chance. When you hear Adele speak—maybe it's her turn in a second—about some plans for working in Wales, and the excitement of working in Wales, what I've learnt about working in Wales is we don't have elitism here. It's such an important difference. All my life I've had this flung at me, the elitist thing of opera, which, of course, is, in the main, a lot of rubbish, but here in Wales it's not an issue. So, I do think, here, venerate the big machine that's here and venerate the talented workforce out there. I think that's the direction of travel.

14:15

Yes, I think that's a very good point, Chris, because the organisation has a really unique origin that I'm sure Chris has talked to you about before, but it wasn't instilled by anyone in Wales; it grew quite organically from a group of Welsh singers, who were amateur singers, who wanted to form an opera company in Wales, and while that might seem a bit twee and a bit in the past, actually, there's a power to that. And I think opera in Wales has always been very connected to democracy, and Sarah's and my plan for the future is that WNO becomes an even more democratic organisation and can represent Wales, and can produce the canon in the bold and brilliant ways that it does, but can also have a much bigger connection to its Welsh identity, ending in our great ambition to create a Welsh canon of opera, a canon that we think will reflect the national confidence of the country and the unique language and the unique voice that we have as a nation. That's definitely, as Chris says, going to take an awful lot of backing from someone, and I think the point of stability that Chris is making is a really good one, and the question of what partnerships we can make in the future to help cost reduction is brilliant. We can absolutely partner up again and again with different organisations, and I'd love to talk to the WMC to see what could be done there about staff sharing and that kind of thing. However, those conversations are very long term and, currently, the funding situation is chronic and immediate. So, I think some sort of sense of stability would be the No. 1 facet that could help the organisation, for sure.

Thank you. And, if I may, obviously there's the wider risk. You mentioned your partnership with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, and, at the moment, St David's Hall is closed, with Cardiff Singer of the World in terms of music here in Wales and some of the things that have been really important in terms of our international strategy—those are at risk, currently, or have been paused, so I think it's important we as a committee reflect on the wider place and your partnerships there.

And also, if I may, you mentioned, in terms of not being as elitist, democratisation and how different it feels here in Wales. Certainly, we've received case studies in the past, for instance on the work you did during COVID in terms of the workshops to improve people's lung health and so on. Sometimes those things go under the radar, but I presume, with the situation you face, those are some of the impactful things that will not be as possible to fulfil in the future. How worried are you, then, about the company's contribution to those wider socioeconomic or health benefits that are beyond, perhaps, what people think of when they think about an opera company, usually?

Thank you. It's a really important point. We do work with all seven Welsh health boards in terms of post COVID, and, actually, we are maintaining, wherever we can, the engagement programme, which is the one that organises those programmes, and that's becoming more and more valuable, and we are receiving extra—fairly modest but useful—sums to enable that programme to grow. So, I think there's social awareness within the company—I'm just here this year, but I'm very impressed by how it wants to work and how it does work and how it understands the context in which it is, and I think they're very wedded to enabling that for the future. But I am concerned about how much we can do, because all that does cost, there's no doubt about that, but there's a real determination to make sure we are part of society. So, the working with Oasis Cardiff, with the immigrant community, that's a big part of our work, and the work in schools. We're good at all that; it's a shame to break it up, if we do. Actually, we do a lot of work throughout, actually, making opera for youth—the youth opera—which is separately funded, by the way. That will be there next May. That's a very important thing, with people who work every weekend to enjoy singing and to enjoy making a production. So, I think WNO has a real role there, in the central part of musical life here, and also a worthwhile life, the things that, intellectually and physically, make a worthwhile life. There are a lot of gifts in there that the company can bring. But I'm concerned; you're absolutely right to bring that up.

14:20

Diolch yn fawr iawn. As a committee, on the points that you were just making about the culture being what makes life worth living, I think, frustratingly for us, we come up time and again against people seeing the arts and culture as something that is nice to have, which is always the first thing to be cut. And, as you say, it actually is intrinsic to our health and our outlook as a nation. So, thank you very much.

Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Carolyn.

Thank you for that. We'll move to Carolyn.

Chris, we've got you here today, but you're leaving soon and you've been the interim director, but you've been part of the company before, haven't you, for a long time? And then Adele is coming in. I'm just thinking how it's all a bit interim at the moment with you two and you're having to deal with the cuts and funding, and sometimes you feel like there's a knee-jerk reaction. So, there's a board as well, isn't there, and the chair of the board has been in place since 2019.

Yes, that's right.

Do you think that there are other ideas we've not touched on that they might have, going forward, in having to deal with the crises now that you're having to deal with?

Yes, the board's there, and the chair is Yvette Vaughan Jones, who some of you probably know. Yvette has been working away with the board through that period of time. They are very concerned at the moment and they are very heads-down in terms of being concerned about the going concern for the company.

And the employees, I guess. I think they were hoping that the funding that was mentioned by the Arts Council of Wales just now, the £1.5 million—I know you said it would be transitional—I think that they were hoping that that could be used to actually retain some of the musicians at the moment.

On that very note, what it will retain is not people in the short term; it will enable a company for the future. It's about getting to 2026-27 with a robust company here that can work well at that point. So, that's how the money will be used, not for maintaining immediate jobs that cannot be used full time. It will be used for maintaining the jobs in the company for the future. Much as we're fighting really hard to maintain as much of the current skill base as we can, 25 per cent of the budget is being taken away. But that immediate cash, I'm afraid, will be used—I think it's the right use for it—to protect the long term, not the short term.

Can I ask you—? You do a lot of travel, so Brexit must have had an impact on you, and I read somewhere about the cost of visas that you're paying for now as well, as a company—the cost of visas, and we heard earlier about the impact of having visas for people and travelling for people, but also all of the instruments as well and the cost of that. So, have you had discussions with the UK Government regarding the impact of that and whether that can be covered in some way, towards funding in the future?

Well, it's not covered by any funding, apart from that which we have, our basic budget. It is more expensive. We use visas the whole time. So, in the cast of Rigoletto, which Adele is directing at the moment, we have people from all over the world in the cast, and that's very much the role of an international opera company. But, each time we have someone, there's a payment to have them come into the country. So, that comes out of our own budgets.

I was shocked, reading the report—I can't find it, because I was when I was reading through it. I was shocked at the cost of it—

Yes, it is. 

—and the impact. So, I just think that that could be another discussion that we could bring in with the UK Government. 

It's become another budget item for us. Say if we want to take our lorries abroad—. For instance, we work very closely with the company in Brno, in Czechia, and we've got a co-production with them waiting to come to Cardiff. That'll be lorries collecting scenery from Czechia to come here, with all of the carnet, et cetera, requirements to bring it into the country.

So, what conversations have you had, then, with both the Welsh Government and the UK Government about the impact of reduced funding for WNO?

This subject came up at the last evidence session earlier in the year, actually. So, we are in touch with—. I can't give you the exact background of what meeting happened when, but I know that those conversations have gone on and, actually, the company, I think, is well skilled to deal with it. It just happens to be expensive.

14:25

What else can the Welsh Government do besides funding, going forward, do you think?

I've been thinking about that question. It's an interesting one. I've tried to avoid the 'Give us more money' one, but I do think venerate what Welsh National Opera does—that's a really important thing. I was thinking: is there something structural that you can do about how things are sorted out? WMC, I think, receives its cash from the Arts Council of Wales. It's not for me to put their own argument forward, I'm just thinking in terms of how money is used. The national museums, I think, are paid for directly out of the Welsh Government. WMC is paid for out of the Welsh arts council budget, which has reduced massively over the last 10 years. Is there a structural arm there that could help somewhere along the line? I'm not trying to damage anyone else—absolutely far from it.

That was going to be my next question, actually—the relative merits of funding national companies via an arts council, as is the case in Wales, or directly from Government, as might be the case in Scotland.

I like the traditional relationship with an arts council, the arms-length—I think it's a good relationship when it works and when there's enough cash to go around. That's basically the issue there. In Scotland, where I've worked a lot, the five national companies, and they're quite big companies in Scotland, are all funded out of the Scottish Government there. They have created a separate department in the Scottish Government to look after those companies, so whether that was a good use of more money to actually administrate the central scheme, as opposed to putting it through Creative Scotland, I think there's an argument there.

But in Wales it's slightly different, because we are the only big company. Obviously, we have National Dance Company Wales and the drama company, but in terms of how we can be looked after, I'm trying to look for where you have opportunity to help us, in some structural—. I have to leave that to your imagination, as much as anything, about how you might help that. The money is the money wherever it comes from, I understand that, but, actually, is there some cleverness in there that can be—? Is there an infrastructural fund that could look after the WMC? A dream is for us to perform more in WMC. It was made for the company, and this wonderful thing came on in 2004, unbelievably beautifully designed and carefully designed for making big shows, and we're not doing enough in there. I think if we could find a way—. If we can do more work in WMC, we don't travel and send lorries around the country. We stay here and we pay for the opera there. Now, obviously, there's only a certain audience range, there are 400,000 people in the greater Cardiff area. This is not Birmingham with nearly 2 million in the greater Birmingham or Manchester area, but I do think there is a base here. 

Actually, your colleague here, Laura Anne, mentioned Cardiff Singer of the World. That whole thing around the world about what this is here—. People around the world think and believe, and it's true, there's something mighty special in Cardiff that needs to be protected. It's a massive tragedy about St David's Hall, but we do have this fabulous theatre. To find a way by which it could be used to its fullest extent, I think, is something else that can be considered somehow. There's a conversation there to be had, I think.

The performance on the Senedd steps was fantastic, by the way—

Oh, did you enjoy that?

We really enjoy coming here. The company is really game and really likes coming to perform here for those events, like on 21 June. That was very important.

Sorry, may I respond to your question?

There's a very noticeable lack of philanthropy in Wales, I think, in comparison with other nations. The philanthropists that do give to WNO are, obviously, hugely appreciated, and we're deeply thankful to them and dependent on them, but I do wonder whether or not there's a wider programme of encouraging philanthropy for the arts in Wales. That could be something that Government could organise, pick up or promote in some way, shape or form. Because I think the sad fact is that we're going to be more dependent on it as we move forward into the future.

It often gets pointed out to me that we haven't got the billionaires, but people can really care, can't they, with not so much, and it could be—. If they feel the music, and that's a priority to them, even if they don't have much money, any funding is helpful.

To what extent—my last question to you—do the Welsh Government's draft culture priorities, which were consulted on over the summer, help cultural bodies mitigate the impact of reduced funding? I'm not sure whether you actually saw that. It was the Welsh Government's draft culture priorities, which were consulted on over the summer. 

14:30

I submitted to that. Has it helped us at all in the current circumstances? Not really, no. Is it important that we are part of it? Is it important that we contribute to it? It is extremely important that we contribute to it and are part of the cultural matrix of Wales.

Thank you for that. I think, as a committee, I can speak for us, and I'm sure I speak for the members of the committee who haven't been able to be here today, as well, that we do appreciate a lot of the words that you've said in terms of the vital importance of WNO. And I'm sure that you can appreciate as well the anguish that we're all aware has been felt by so many members of the chorus, of the orchestra and supporters, of course, as well, because it is cherished. As a company, it is world leading and it's also ours; I think it's a matter of so much pride for so many of us in Wales that this fantastic jewel of an organisation is something that is Wales's banner onto the world, almost, and that we have this platform showing the very best in creative excellence. And we as a committee are just so desperate to ensure and to see that that success continues for the individuals involved as well as for the company. Could I ask you both—if I could go to Chris first and then to Adele—what your hope would be for what the WNO of the future will look like? If I go to Chris first.

It has a wonderful background and it's got a wonderful root in Wales, and it really did come out of here. The reason the Arts Council of Great Britain, in the early 1970s, came to Wales was because it wanted more touring opera and the one available was this rather fine company based here in Cardiff. And I just think that background, going forwards into the future—. This is a wonderful base. It doesn't have to be the biggest city in the world, it just has to be somewhere where something very special happens. There's a city in Germany called Wuppertal where a very famous dancer was based for a long time—not a distinguished city, in many ways, apart from its overhead railway, but actually, that city became very famous because of this one dancer based in the theatre there. It's an extraordinary story. And I just think there's something here very special for Wales.

Can I just say that I appreciate your comments in terms of the care for the company? Because actually, one of the big problems we have in the company, going through transition, is the disbelief. It's a very proud company; it knows it makes great work, and actually, it's pleased with what it does. What I mean is that when you see the result of Death in Venice or Il trittico or Adele's Rigoletto, it's a company that really knows how to make shows. It really knows how to make opera and I think that comes from knowing its skill base and being aware of its skill base. So, whatever you can do to push that on for the future—. But a company here that can grow in the future, that, actually—I think Adele will say it, probably—is about a vision for the twenty-first century—. It's about where does it go, so opera doesn't get stuck in—I've forgotten the expression—the 'maybe it's a nice thing to do on a Saturday afternoon' department, you know? It is about something that's essential to life appreciation, because that's where opera came out of in the first place and I think it can really work here.

I agree. Sarah and I came up with a tagline when we actually interviewed for the role of joint general director and CEO, and the tagline was, 'Eich Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru'; that it's your Welsh National Opera. And I've been hugely inspired by the sorts of opera companies and the companies that Chris was talking about where you can go to a German town and the community has an opera company that is the cultural heartbeat of that place, and we want WNO to be the cultural heartbeat of Wales. I think Wales has a very special relationship with opera; we want the opera company to reflect Wales's rebellious spirit and we want to create the great repertoire and the great canonical work, but we also want to balance that with a massive amount of innovative work that challenges form, that challenges who opera is made for and made by.

We take very seriously the fact that WNO sits on the old Tiger Bay site; there's a cultural diversity in Wales that is not being reflected, necessarily, at the moment—not just in Welsh National Opera, but in opera in general—and to really celebrate that. We'd love to balance the work that—Chris is absolutely right—is essential to make in that building, the WMC, because that is the scale and the might of opera that allows us to not just employ this array of extraordinary talent, but also to knock people out with the form and its power and the sheer unadulterated potency of the human voice unamplified, and the analogue nature of the orchestra, the direct connection that the audience has with it, but also to take opera to places that maybe feel less obvious.

There's a great history connecting to the bass baritone Paul Robeson, and I'd love to take more opera into the communities that he visited when he came here in the 1920s. Interestingly, it'll be 100 years since he first met the Welsh miners in a couple of years' time, and I think it's important for us to remember that those democratic connections are the things that make opera so special. It's an amazing art form, because I think it can very easily become about the extraordinary power of those single human voices, but actually, the thing that I would love everyone to take away from us talking today is that opera is a workforce; it's a village. Every show takes a village-load of people to make it come to life, and the collective endeavour and the power of it is what makes it so special, and I'd love the WNO of the future to be that collective endeavour on behalf of the nation of Wales, here and across the world.

14:35

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Adele. And just on that final point, if I may, that's such an important point about the workforce—that of course, yes, this is about those phenomenal individual voices and these wonderful musicians, but also that workforce. Will you, when you begin in this role, be wanting to grasp the urgency of the situation in terms of the anguish that is being felt at this moment by that workforce? And are there any final words that either of you would like to leave us with in terms of what your hope would be for the workforce, and so not just the fantastic projection of WNO to the world, but also what happens inside the company? I'll go to Adele first, and then to Chris.

Yes, absolutely. I've just been very lucky to work with them, because I've just finished making a show for WNO; very interesting timing, because it was my debut at WNO after having made work across the world. And of course, nobody wants that workforce to suffer; I would personally love the opportunity to have the resources for a full-time chorus and an orchestra and all those technical staff to be available to the company, because I think that they are working in the service of the nation, at the end of the day. But the financial restraints that we have on us at the moment mean that that's just impossible.

So, it's how to square those two things, because there is a cost, and I can't stress enough that the cost of running an opera company is in its labour. So, if we don't have that money at our disposal and the company risks—which it does—becoming company that is not a going concern any more, then it's just not possible to employ those people. So, there is an urgency to which we have to either find that money or we have to make a change to the company.

Chris may very well have pointed this out to you before, but one of the issues would be of having full-time staffing, but we were only able to produce work for three months of the year, for example, because of the funding restrictions. So, in order for the company to be a fully operational going concern for the nation, then we do have to be able to make work all year round and we do need the resources to do that. There's no two ways about it. I wish I could say to you that there was a magic solution to all of this, but unfortunately, there's just no—[Inaudible.]

Chris, is there anything that you'd like to add, please?

I think it's all been said, but I just thought of one thing that is completely to do with nothing at all. Churchill put the committee for the encouragement of the arts together in 1944; WNO was created in 1943. It's just such an interesting bit of irony there. This company got there, it made itself, and it became important, and it was supported by Government, but it came out of that wartime period of something for the future. And I think now this struggle at the moment—. And it's really hard; I feel awful for the people in the company. I hate seeing it going on, especially—. There's a massive skill base; Adele addressed that really well. And actually, in the making skills side. By the way, we have a separate company called Cardiff Theatrical Services, which makes scenery and props for the nation, and this year it turned over and made a profit, and that profit comes into WNO. So, we do have another arm there as such. It's not going to save us, but it's a very intelligent bit of background to the company that actually it brought a creative base here to Cardiff. Trying to protect all that I think is the dream going forward. We've got to get through the current period and we've got to get to a better future.

Thank you both very much. I'll just check that there aren't any final questions. No, I think that's a good note to end on.

Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i'r ddau ohonoch chi am eich tystiolaeth y prynhawn yma. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi ichi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg. Ond a gaf i ddiolch yn fawr iawn ichi am eich tystiolaeth y prynhawn yma?

So, thank you very much, both of you, for your evidence this afternoon. A transcript of everything that's been said will be sent for you to check that it's a fair record. But can I thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon?

Thank you very much indeed.

14:40

Thank you for allowing us to speak. That's really kind of you, and it's very nice to talk to you about it. Thank you for your support. We really appreciate that.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you very much, both. The committee will move on now, but if there's anything that we need to take up with you in writing, we'll write to you with that. But thank you very much.

That's absolutely fine, please do.

Thank you both very much again for your evidence.

Aelodau, mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen. Jest cyn i ni gau, hoffwn i ddweud ar y record bod consérn wedi ei godi ynglŷn ag ymddygiad Aelod yn gynharach heddiw wrth siarad gyda thyst, a bod yr Aelod o bosib wedi torri Rheol Sefydlog 17.25. Mi fydda i'n ystyried y mater hwn ymhellach. Mi wnawn ni gau'r cyfarfod yma nawr a pharhau yn breifat. Mi wnaf i aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat.

Members, we will move on. Just before this comes to a close, I'd like to say on the record that a concern has been raised in relation to the behaviour of a Member earlier on today speaking to a witness. Standing Order 17.25 might have been broken. I will be considering this matter further. We will bring this meeting to a close now and continue in private. I'll wait to hear that we are in private.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:40.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14:40.