National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everybody, to today's hybrid meeting of the Senedd Petitions Committee. As a reminder, this meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. Item 1 on today's agenda: apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We have a full house with us today, so no apologies have therefore been submitted, and I should remind Members that they should note any declarations of interest either now or at the relevant point during today's proceedings. Okay. Good.

Before we move on to item 2, new petitions, I'd just like to thank committee members and, in particular, the acting Chair, Rhianon Passmore, for the continued work of the committee with the clerking team for the period of the last month, when I was on parental leave. I'm very grateful to all Members for their support during that time.

Item 2, then, on today's agenda: new petitions. Item 2.1, P-06-1422, 'Rescind the 20mph limit on TRA4076 at Johnston Pembrokeshire'.

'Welsh Government guidance for reduction of limits to 20mph said that “generally” A and B classified roads should be exempted.

'TRA4076 through Johnston Pembrokeshire forms part of a principle urban network linking the south of our county to our county town and hospital. It is an urban clear way with no on street parking, footpaths both sides and two light controlled pedestrian crossings. There is no justification for this stretch of road being reduced to 20mph.'

It was submitted by Helen Meopham with 301 signatures in total. I'll invite committee members to discuss this position and any actions the committee may wish to take. Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much, Chair. So, a little bit of background: the A4076 is a nine-mile trunk road in Pembrokeshire, the responsibility, obviously, of the Welsh Government, and delegated operational management is the South Wales Trunk Road Agent. As is known, the Cabinet Secretary sets out the plans to engage with the public and stakeholders to achieve those

'right speeds on the right roads'.

This includes reviewing the guidance to highways authorities in setting exceptions to the new 20 mph speed limit that has been applied. So, the final report of this exceptions guidance review was published on 24 May, which makes recommendations on how that guidance should be updated. The Welsh Government has now decided to co-create and publish updated exceptions guidance with input from the highway authorities and County Surveyors Society Wales, and that's prior to the summer recess. Just to state, the Cabinet Secretary says they will

'continue to support highway authorities in the implementation phase of assessing roads'

et cetera.

So, the petitioner has written to Trunk20mph and argues that the reasons for exempting this road are laid out in the petition, which are in keeping with the original exceptions guidance issued, and is disputing that the 20 mph zones were introduced in response to climate change rather than safety, and refers to a House of Lords report on behaviour change for climate and environmental goals. She states that

'every sensible person applauds lower limits near schools however imposing a 20mph limit on what is a main arterial route through the county is not sensible.'

I think that, as far as Members are concerned within this committee, we're aware the Welsh Government are reviewing and updating that guidance, which will be published shortly, and that they've committed to support highway authorities to assess and implement changes from September. So, I think, in terms of raising the issue, we'd like to congratulate the petitioner for that contribution in ensuring that the speed limit on that stretch of road will be reviewed. From my perspective, I don't think there is any further action that this committee at this stage can take. So, I propose that we close the petition and thank the petitioner for their communication and interest in this important matter.

Thank you, Rhianon. Peter Fox.

Thank you, and thank you, Rhianon, for taking us through this. We're pleased there is going to be some new guidance that will help local authorities determine the reversion of some of these 20 mph, but specifically around trunk roads. There's one in my own constituency where a trunk road was dropped to 20 mph, and I was just trying to clarify that, with it being a trunk road, it wouldn't necessarily be under the auspices of the county council, it would be under the auspices of the Government to review it. And I would hope that they would review those with haste, because trunk roads dropped to 20 mph, as we have on the A48, for instance, through Chepstow, causes a huge problem and should hopefully be some of the first that can be adjusted. I hope that the Government do recognise that and make progress with this trunk road in the petition and others in a similar position.

I thank Peter Fox for those comments. Are there any further comments from Members? No. Just to highlight to those watching, if you are aware of a trunk road like the one described by Peter Fox and in the petition and wish for it to be reviewed, there is an e-mail address, TrunkRoads20mph@gov.wales, to inform the Welsh Government. Of course, in relation to this petition, the Welsh Government will be aware of the trunk road A4076 and the fact that 301 people have supported the petition.

Item 2.2, P-06-1428, 'Stop the flooding in Caenant Terrace, Skewen NOW!'

'For the last 40 or so years, Caenant has regularly suffered flooding because the culvert and the drainage system can't cope with the amount of water and again, the terrace has been turned into a river with thousands of gallons of water pouring down the road and back lane. One house has suffered substantial flooding in this latest breach.'

There is additional information available to members of the committee and members of the public with regard to this petition, which was submitted by Susan Martin Kerslake with 776 signatures in total. I'm aware that there are a further 205 additional paper signatures collected by a local councillor in support of this petition, as well. I'd like to invite committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take, and I'll look to Peter Fox.

Thank you, Chair. Can I thank Susan Kerslake for bringing this forward? I can only imagine how difficult it is, especially for residents, when they're faced, time and time again, with significant flooding issues. As we've been told, this is something that isn't new, it's been going on for many years; it's been known about by Neath Port Talbot Council and they recognise the situation and I know that they are trying to work towards finding a solution.

The Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs states that the Welsh Government funds risk management authorities, known as RMAs, to deliver flood and coastal erosion schemes in Wales, and this is delivered through the flood and coastal erosion risk management programme. Neath Port Talbot Council is the RMA undertaking this scheme at Caenant Terrace and the Welsh Government is providing 100 per cent funding to carry out the detailed design and draft a full business case. Afterwards, Neath Port Talbot, as the RMA, intend to complete an application for construction funding. But that won't happen until early 2025. I can understand why the residents are so anxious about the wait. Flooding in Caenant Terrace is a long-standing issue, as we've pointed out. It has been in Neath Port Talbot's flood risk management strategy since 2013, it's listed as a location with specific flood risk concerns affecting around 33 properties, and it's causing a huge problem there. A spokesperson for the Welsh Government, I know, has shared that they've provided some £765,000 to develop the scheme at Caenant Terrace and they are currently working on a scheme that will benefit the wider community of Skewen.

Obviously, the petitioners—and anybody who would be affected; it's quite understandable—are very frustrated about the lack of resolution to date, recognising this has been something that has been known for many years. It's been an issue since the 1950s. The petitioner states that, as a wheelchair user, she had to undertake a flood report when purchasing the bungalow she lives in and the analysis of the flooding was highlighted at that time. So, there's plenty of evidence suggesting that there is an issue where the watercourse runs. I know, in response to the Cabinet Secretary, the petitioner asks, if this proposal isn't accepted, whether there will be work done on her specific street, recognising that there are issues there. We know that the Welsh Government have committed 100 per cent funding for the design and business case, and we know that they then intend to, once they've completed the design, apply for construction funding in early 2025.

My advice probably to the committee is that Members could welcome the commitment by the council and the Government to address the issues in Caenant, but I would suggest that Members could agree to write to the local authority to emphasise again the petitioner's concerns and the need to progress the design works and apply for construction funding as soon as possible, and also to perhaps ask that question if any specific immediate issues can happen in there to mitigate those people who are immediately affected as to the specific question the petitioner raised. So, I would agree that way forward, Chair: for Members to write to the local authority emphasising their concerns and encourage them to fund as soon as possible.

Thank you, Peter Fox. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Caenant Terrace is in my region, and I know my colleague Sioned Williams has been involved with some of the work that's going on there. In writing to the council, though, I'd like us to emphasise the need to move this forward as soon as possible. Peter already highlighted that this was in the local flood risk strategy in 2013. We have, potentially, a solution coming in 2025. Well, that's not good enough, to be quite frank, because that's another year on top of waiting for residents to see this issue resolved for them, living in fear every time it starts raining heavily. That's not a way anybody should have to live in their own homes. I would like for the committee in no uncertain terms to write, in that letter to the council, that it isn't good enough that these things have taken as long as they have to resolve, and that they should be expediting this process now, not waiting until 2025, but get the issues resolved sooner. We've got another winter coming. We know that the last winter was one of the wettest on record. Who knows where things are going with climate change at the moment. I would like us to be quite strong on that.

If I could come back in, I absolutely support Luke on that. And just reflecting as a past council leader, I know you have to bid to funds to do things, but councils have it within their gift to be able to accelerate certain things. They have access to resources so that they can reprioritise and backfill. There are ways around these things to be able to accelerate some of these projects, and I hope that the council will consider how they could accelerate this, because that could be two winters away, and that's really worrying.

I thank both Members for those comments and the proposed actions. I think there's agreement from the committee to write to the local authority and stress the points made by both Members about the importance of getting the work done as soon as possible. I know all too well in my own constituency, particularly in Sandycroft, Mancot, and Broughton and Bretton, of the impact of flooding over a number of years and the impact that has on the local community there. We'll make sure to action those points and write that letter to the council, and, in doing so, close this petition at this point. Are Members content?

I wouldn't be content with closing the petition until we receive a response to our letter, so could I ask that we keep the petition open until we receive that response?

Okay. Are Members happy? Thank you.

Item 2.3, P-06-1436, 'Withdraw plans to change the structure of the school year'.

'The Welsh Government’s evidence base is not sufficiently robust to justify the changes, which will cause significant disruption in our schools, and across the agricultural and tourism sectors in Wales. We believe that now is not the time to change the structure of the school year, and remove time from the summer holidays. The education sector in Wales has seen significant changes, which have caused substantial impacts in terms of workload and wellbeing for our workforce.'

There is additional information available to members of the committee and members of the public with regard to this petition. It was submitted by the National Education Union Cymru, NASUWT Cymru, Unison Cymru, Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru, NAHT Cymru and the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru, with a total of 6,544 signatures. I'll invite the committee to discuss this petition and any actions that Members may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. As you note, the petitioners here are trade unions associated with the education sector. A lot has changed since the petition was submitted and closed. We had an oral statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on 4 June, which had much coverage. What she said in that oral statement has been repeated in a response to this petition, meaning that any changes will not happen during this Senedd term and that she has taken into account the strong views within the sector during the consultation. The response from the education Cabinet Secretary has been shared with the education unions, and they're naturally pleased with the response and pleased with the outcome. Therefore, my suggestion is that we thank them for using the Petitions Committee and close this petition.

Diolch, Rhys. Are Members content? They are. 

Item 2.4, P-06-1442, 'Extend Universal Free School Meals to secondary schools'. 

'Implementing Universal Free School Meals in secondary schools, for all pupils regardless of dietary requirements for allergic, religious, or personal reasons. Ensuring as far as possible that these Free School Meals are ethically and sustainably sourced, including protecting workers' rights in the supply chain. Encouraging in all schools, high-quality in-house kitchens making fresh food whenever possible, and when not possible that providers use fresh and local produce.'

There is additional information available to members of the committee and members of the public with regard to this petition, which was submitted by the Unite Community Cardiff and area branch, with a total of 764 signatures. I'm also aware that St Joseph's school in Wrexham are working with the Senedd education team with regard to their campaign called No Hungry Learners and the use of free school meals in schools as well. And to note for the record, I am a member of Unite the Union—I think other colleagues on the committee might be as well—and I refer those interested to the register of interests. I will bring the committee in to discuss this petition now, and any actions they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. From the outset, I'd say I'm very supportive of this petition. I was on free school meals—it didn't end after primary school; I was still on them when I went to comp. The reality is that we've gone a long way in introducing it at primary school level. I was really proud to be part of making that decision through the co-operation agreement, as a result of Plaid Cymru policy. I would also say, though, as part of this petition, we shouldn't forget about school holidays and the holiday hunger element that happens currently. We shouldn't also forget about the colleges as well, which often get forgotten about. Having a square meal as part of your education I think is vitally important. There's plenty of research out there that shows that if you are hungry during the school day, you're not going to learn. So, very supportive of this petition.

Could I say on the point of St Joseph's that we invite them to share their views with the committee? I think it's really important that when we look at petitions like this, especially when it has an effect on students and pupils of schools, that we get them involved in the process of this Parliament. So, I'd be really keen to hear their views.

We also know that we've got the child poverty strategy coming through from Welsh Government, so I was wondering if we can keep this petition open until that child poverty strategy comes through. I would hope that this petition would play an important role in the Government's decision-making process as to what exactly is within that strategy. I think it would be quite beneficial for us to be able to feed back to the petitioners once we've seen that strategy and then actually assess where we can take it from there.

I'm grateful, Luke Fletcher. Any comments from Members? No. Peter.

I acknowledge the petition, and I absolutely agree that anybody who needs a free school meal should get one. I think that's the premise. What I've always been slightly concerned about with this and primary school is those children who don't need to have a free meal. My own children, you know, wouldn't have needed to have a free school meal. They were very fortunate. So, I just struggle if it's always the best use of resources—are there better ways to find a way that everybody can get it who needs it, and find ways to do that in as discreet a way as possible? But it's not necessary for every person in the secondary school sector to have a free meal—I wrestle with that concept—as long as everybody can get one who needs one. However, that's only my view. The petition is before us and I support Luke's way forward.

I thank Peter for those comments. The debate around free school meals has been a lively one on all sides in the Senedd, and no doubt will continue to be so. I am keen, with the work the education team here at the Senedd are doing with St Joseph's school, that we do hear directly from them and their campaign and then bring it back to committee for a further discussion, noting the points that both Luke and Peter have made this afternoon. So, I'll ask the clerks to reach out to the education team to work on that and bring it back to committee. Happy? Yes.

Item 2.5, P-06-1443, ‘Re-instate core funding for TRAC Cymru’.

'TRAC was formed to promote and draw attention to Wales’ folk music and dance traditions, so that they might be supported on a par with other classical and contemporary music and cultural genres.

'Great strides have been made in recent decades to nurture Welsh folk culture and promote Wales on an international level. Despite this, Arts Council Wales have decided to remove TRAC's core funding, rendering them unable to carry on their vital work. We demand that this funding be re-instated.'

Again, there is additional information to this petition. It was submitted by Owen Shiers with 822 signatures in total. I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much, Chair. I note that, in my short time on this committee, I think this is the third cultural petition that we've received alongside the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, the national library and Amgueddfa Cymru. And then there's obviously the other issues around Welsh National Opera. So, I think in terms of the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice's response, which we received, it's going to some length to discuss the investment review, pointing out clearly that the Arts Council of Wales is making those decisions without Welsh Government interference. I think we've been provided with a detailed account of that process and how it's deemed to be equitable and appropriate, outlining the appeals process, support offered and the audit provided internally. And in line with that guidance, it discusses the transition support to the former grant recipients of the Arts Portfolio Wales organisation who were unsuccessful this time around. Trac Cymru has been awarded £30,000 in their transition support. In regard to what they have lost, that would be interesting to explore. And they've also offered additional specific advice—Arts Council of Wales—and expertise, apparently to help those organisations no longer receiving core annual funding. And additionally, of the organisations who have been unsuccessful in that investment review, 23 are eligible to apply for the published National Lottery programme for specific project activity. 

Trac Cymru has apparently had funding discussions with officials in Creative Wales. In terms of the announcement around their recent programme, they have been advised to consider applying for the funding scheme, which is competitive and due to open shortly. There will be a big demand on that small amount of money. And also, the Cabinet Secretary notes that as a direct response to learning—this is interesting—gathered and decisions made as part of the investment review process, the Arts Council of Wales is now committed to undertake strategic interventions across a number of artistic disciplines this year to assess the provision needed for each discipline. I just— . It will be interesting—. The order of that, you would have thought that would have occurred prior to the investment review, and it would be interesting to follow that through. 

One of the strategic interventions is a review of traditional music—obviously, pertaining to this really important petition—in Wales. That's at a very early stage, so it would be interesting to follow that through. The Arts Council of Wales has also, though, which is important, recently advertised for a project manager and commissioner to lead this intervention, and I'm presuming that that is around traditional music. 

So, I think in terms of the wider landscape, this fits in, sadly, very well with the other petitions that this committee has received around cultural funding, and in particular around the arts portfolio, big beasts and little beasts that have not been funded this time around. I don't believe, Chair, that we've received a response yet from Trac Cymru, so it would be really pertinent to keep that open and to keep this petition open until we've had that opportunity to have that communication with them. And I think, in terms of where this sits in the cultural landscape, it would be really important to, in a sense, not deviate from this particular petition but to actually thematically group that as well. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhianon Passmore. Any further comments from Members? Are Members content to leave this petition open, bring it back for further consideration by the committee, once we have had an opportunity to receive correspondence from Trac Cymru? They are. Okay. 

Item 2.6, P-06-1445, 'Change Land Transaction Tax for First Time Buyers in Wales to be in line with the UK Government'.

'The UK Government have removed stamp duty for first time buyers who purchase properties under £425K in England and NI. The Welsh Government needs to follow suit by reducing LTT to the same rate for first time buyers in Wales. Currently there is no preferential rate for first time buyers in Wales, it is just a flat rate of under £225K for every house bought here. With rapid rising property prices it is becoming increasingly difficult to find decent properties under the WG threshold of £225K.'

There's additional information available to Members. This was submitted by Taylor Reynish with 268 signatures in total. And I'd like to invite committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions the committee may wish to take. Peter Fox.

Thank you, Chair, and can I thank Taylor Reynish for submitting this? Whilst there are 268 signatures, I'm sure there are thousands of people out there that would agree with the sentiment, certainly first-time buyers, because we all know how hard it is for first-time buyers at the moment to get onto the property ladder. I think it's one of the fundamental things we all wish to see: our children to have a home of their own of some sort. If they want to buy, to be able to buy one, or if they want to rent, to be able to rent one. Perhaps with a change in Government over the weekend, perhaps Welsh Government policy might align—we don't know, as we move forward. But it's a fair challenge to make.

The Cabinet Secretary did write back and gave her rationale of why the land transaction tax is where it is, and we recognise that it has been increased from a threshold of—. Properties under £180,000 don't pay it, and that was lifted to £225,000 in 2020. Obviously, that's still quite a significant shortfall, in the petitioner's view, from what's on offer for first-time buyers in England, where you can buy a property up to £425,000 before paying stamp duty, which is obviously the equivalent in England. So, some fair challenges have been put down and some fair rebuttals from the Government. However, the petitioner does go on, and responded to the Cabinet Secretary's response to the petition, and he notes that, despite 60 per cent of transactions are free, many first-time buyers are still priced out of the market, especially in higher priced areas. And that's a really good point, because whilst we know what the average price is across Wales, it can vary massively. If we want to create cohesive communities and enable people to stay within their communities, you know, clearly some younger people will be disadvantaged and maybe even forced out to other areas where they can afford to live, and that undermines the fabric of many communities, so I can understand that.

The petitioner raised some specific additional questions, which are highlighted in our papers, 1 through to 5, and I'll briefly just touch on those. So, the first one was regional disparity: how does the Welsh Government plan to support first-time buyers in regions where property prices exceed £225,000? That's a good point. Challenges in expensive areas: why should those growing up in more expensive areas be penalised by a generalised tax scheme? Such one-time help would enable people to stay in their communities—quite important. Long-term strategy: is there a strategy, he asks, to periodically review and adjust the land transaction tax thresholds to match market conditions? Well, I think, in fairness to the Cabinet Secretary, that has been recognised previously, but will that continue? Impact analysis: has the impact of the current land transaction tax structure on first-time buyers been compared to those in England and Northern Ireland?? And then, finally, a point about percentage of first-time buyers: what exact percentage of transactions under the £225,000 threshold are first-time buyers? We've mentioned that 60 per cent are first-time buyers, but knowing the exact figures would help quantify the impact, the petitioner suggests. So, Chair and colleagues, I think it'd be fair, even in the light of the information given by the Cabinet Secretary, that we agree to write back to the Cabinet Secretary, to seek her responses to the additional questions that have been raised by the petitioner.

I'm grateful, Peter Fox, for those comments and suggestion to write back to the Minister, with the comments from the petitioner. Are Members content? Further comments? No. Okay.

Item 2.7, P-06-1447, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing the visitor centre at Ynyslas National Nature Reserve'.

'It has come to the attention of the local community that NRW are planning to close the Visitor Centre at Ynyslas at the end of this year. This is taking place with no consultation, no provision of alternative protection for the nature reserve and the loss of local jobs. NRW is the organisation that should be protecting our wildlife and communities not destroying them.'

There's further information available to members of the committee and members of the public. This was submitted by Kim Williams, with 2,422 signatures in total, 915 of them from Wales. I'll invite committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. We've received a response from the Cabinet Secretary—a response, I think, we could have maybe written ourselves or certainly have guessed what would be said. He mentions budgetary pressures on organisations and that the decision and these difficult decisions rest with the organisations themselves, namely NRW here. 

NRW's chief executive has spoken to the Senedd climate change committee; she told that committee that no decision had been made as regards to Ynyslas. We haven't heard if a decision has been made. The campaigners with regard to saving Ynyslas dispute some of the comments that NRW and the Cabinet Secretary have said. They dispute the community engagement comment. They said that there was a public meeting, but they felt it was unsatisfactory and failed to respond to their concerns and to the questions from the community. Now, I think we need to acknowledge the concerns and frustrations of the campaign group. They want to know what's going to happen. It's clear from the Cabinet Secretary's response that it is a matter for NRW, as I've said already, so I suggest that we write to NRW, we seek clarification with regard to when a decision or has a decision been made with regard to Ynyslas, and seek an update from them before our next committee meeting. 

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. Are Members content? They are. Can I also propose that we write to the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee here in the Senedd to make them aware, or we will copy the Chair into the correspondence we send to NRW, given the work on this matter already?

Item 2.8, P-06-1448, 'Stop pollution at Watchtower Bay and Ogmore by Sea'. 

'Watch House Bay...and Ogmore by Sea were both classified as new designated bathing waters in 2023.

'Now both beaches have not met the minimum requirements for bathing water quality and were the only two bathing sites in Wales to be classified as "poor" in what the Welsh Government has described as "disappointing".

'Rather than putting up signs warning people not to swim at these beaches, the Council, Welsh Water and Welsh Government should be taking action to prevent this pollution.'

Further information is available to members of the committee and the public. It's submitted by Robert Curtis with 894 signatures, and I'll invite committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'm not particularly familiar with Watch House bay, but I am familiar with Ogmore-by-Sea; that's where I take the dog for a walk. It's right next to Merthyr Mawr nature reserve as well—another great place to take your dog for a walk, but this isn't an advertisement for dog-walking spots. The point here is that these are very popular places, where a lot of people go, whether that is to take their dog out or whether that is to go into the water, to do all sorts of things, whether that's cold-water dipping, or you see quite regularly down there people on paddleboards, or actually, this weekend, windsurfing, because of how strong the winds were. So, it's in regular use. It's disappointing to see that it's scored as bad as it has.

One of the things I would like to suggest that we do as a committee is keep open this petition for the time being, because I am aware that some figures are being published in about December time. We can see if any progress has been made there, because, of course, the Minister has said that there's some investigative work happening at the moment—or the Cabinet Secretary, sorry, has said that there's some work being done. I think it would be worth while us returning to this in December to see what progress has taken place and also to assess then where we can take this petition after we've seen those figures.

Diolch, Luke. I can see Members are in agreement with those action points. 

Item 2.9, P-06-1456, 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'.

'Recent announcement by Welsh Air Ambulance to close two bases and centralise its operations leaves whole swathes of Mid and Northwest Wales with inferior coverage. I believe the public need, and public opinion on the matter has not been listened to, and appeal to Welsh Government to intervene.

'A full public enquiry should be launched.'

There is additional information available to members of the committee and members of the public. This was submitted by Karl Ciz, with 10,437 signatures in total. I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you, Chair. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has acknowledged the strength of feeling amongst the communities in mid and north Wales about this issue, and that's quoted from her, and she is clear that, in her words,

'The decision to consolidate services at a new base was made by the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee with the intention to enable more people to receive the specialised critical care response' 

provided by emergency medical retrieval and transfer services, which are commonly known as EMRTS, and what they need then is to enable the people to be transferred as quickly as possible. She's clear to say that

'It is not a decision for the Welsh Government to make',

and states it should not be an operational decision for Ministers to make. She states that this modelling now will enable more people across Wales to receive the specialised critical care response, including Powys and north Wales, arguing that it will include better night coverage.

But, obviously, there are huge emotive concerns around this reconfiguration and, obviously, in terms of the numbers, Chair, 10,437, that's almost on that cusp in terms of being able to debate it. I would suggest, due to the real concerns that are being placed around this, that to seek further discussion and debate within the Senedd Chamber would be appropriate, and that is something that I would like to propose.

Diolch, Rhianon. I should say, as well, the petitioner actually closed the petition once it breached the 10,000 threshold where we consider items for debate. They closed that petition early. So, it still could have collected signatures within the six-month period, as per normal. Just to take that into account. Any further comments? Peter Fox.

Only to agree that it comes for a debate. This is such a big issue, and it's still live, as you see. It affects so many people's lives, and lots of people are concerned. There clearly seems to be a misalignment of information. People still don't understand the wider suggested benefits of this approach, and that's creating a lot of fear and concern for people. I'm pleased they're writing in to share their concerns, and perhaps the debate gives a better opportunity for us to try to get underneath this, to the bottom of this. And, if we have to recognise, at the end of the day, it's a decision made out of our hands, at least people have had opportunity to talk about it.

I thank Peter Fox for those comments too. Okay, so I think there's agreement from the committee to write to the Business Committee here in this Senedd to request a debate, and it will be for them to agree whether we have time to debate the matter, making the points that this petition was closed early, once it reached the threshold. And also to the local campaign, I should say, travelling from north-west Wales yesterday, down the A470 to Cardiff, you could see the local campaign pretty much all the journey, certainly most of the journey, with the banners and signs up along the A470, in north-west Wales and mid Wales. That certainly was visible to me yesterday.

Okay, item 3, updates to previous petitions, 3.1, P-06-1291, 'Hold an enquiry into the corporate takeover of the veterinary profession in Wales', submitted by Dr Linda Evelyn Joyce-Jones, with a total of 308 signatures. I'd like to bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions that they may wish to take. You'll remember, on 20 May, we held an evidence session on this petition and the corporate takeover of veterinary services in Wales. Peter Fox.

Thank you, Chair, and, yes, this is a very interesting petition, which has quite a lot of history, from initially being closed for signatures right back in 2022. As you've pointed out, there's been work going on and I was part of that inquiry session. We had an evidence session here recently, which was really interesting. So, there's a lot of people who have been engaged with this, and I do thank Dr Joyce-Jones for her persistence in taking this important matter forward. 

We note that the Competition and Markets Authority, the CMA, has announced that they will conduct a market investigation into the veterinary sector, and this is expected to publish its findings in the autumn of 2025. They say that

'An inquiry group made up of independent experts and chaired by Martin Coleman will now oversee the investigation. Supported and advised by CMA staff, the group will be able to use the full breadth of the CMA's formal market investigation powers to gather additional evidence, examine concerns in more depth and shape any remedies that may be needed to address these concerns.'

Now, I know that Dr Joyce-Jones has further responded to us and does have some anxieties that the scope of the investigation might not cover all areas, and she's slightly anxious about that, and I know that she would welcome a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies. Now, it's not necessarily a responsibility for us to set that up, but I think what we can do, Chair, is to perhaps pass on contact details, and perhaps Dr Joyce-Jones will be able to touch base with the Cabinet Secretary and look for that further meeting.

Dr Joyce-Jones also pointed out that there is another stakeholder engagement event scheduled for 20 September in Aberystwyth University, which will take further views from a wider range of stakeholders, which I'm sure will be beneficial to the CMA's work when it looks deeper into these things. 

So, my recommendations, Chair, would be to agree to write to the CMA, outlining the petition, the evidence we have gathered, and seek confirmation that they will consider the evidence in their deliberations, and also take on board any further issues that Dr Joyce-Jones has raised, to try and help reassure her that their investigation will be all-encompassing.

Thank you, Peter Fox, for that. Any further comments from Members? Are Members content to agree the actions? Yes, okay, they are. So, we will write to the CMA, outlining the points Peter Fox has made, and of course ensure that Linda does have the correct contact details to make contact with the Cabinet Secretary responsible, Huw Irranca-Davies, to ask him to consider meeting in the future. 

Item 3.2, P-06-1374, 'Bring Wales in line with England by allowing landowners 60 days tent and campervan camping a year'. This was submitted by Andrew Richard Walton with 430 signatures, and I'd like to bring Members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think this is the second time we've discussed this petition. On the last occasion, we wrote to the Minister with some of the questions raised by the petitioner, and also to await the publication of the consultation on permitted development. Now, we've had a response from the Cabinet Secretary. We've shared that with the petitioner. The Cabinet Secretary said that the consultation was divided on the issue of retaining the permitted development. I believe this change came in during the COVID pandemic. She notes that consideration is being given to a 46-day temporary period for camping, subject to appropriate safeguarding being in place, and that there will be another consultation later this year, once that policy has been developed further.

The petitioner himself has looked at the consultation results. He is of the view that it was 2:1 in favour of the 56-day extension, and he repeats the benefits that pop-up camping sites make to tourism and to local areas and to the farming sector, as a way for farmers to diversify. He also suggests, quite properly in my view, the disappointment at the speed of the response of the Welsh Government. There is still ambiguity. There is still uncertainty. And he is asking for things to move much quicker, so that businesses such as his are in a better position to plan, for example, for the Easter 2025 season.

Now, as he wants more urgency, my suggestion is that it's too early to close this petition. He probably doesn't feel that he's had a resolution with regard to this petition. So, can I suggest that we write to the Minister, ask for some clarification and for some urgency with regard to the position, and to encourage resolution in time for the people like the petitioner to be able to use this by Easter 2025, and then keep the petition also open until this other consultation closes? Well, I think it opens later on in the year; I don't know when the consultation then closes. But you can see how it all is stretched out and, until all this is resolved, the petitioner, Mr Walton, wouldn't think that he has had a resolution to his concerns. So, those are my suggestions.

Diolch, Rhys ab Owen. Do you have any comments, Peter Fox?

I absolutely agree with Rhys. I don't know if I need to declare an interest really; I am a farmer, but I'm also a caravanner, and I can see well how access to a greater array of pop-up caravan sites would only benefit the Welsh economy. But I agree with your way forward.

I'm grateful, Peter Fox, for—

We can borrow his caravan for the Eisteddfod.

Yes, we can do that. We can go on tour, Chair. [Laughter.]

We're grateful, Peter Fox, for those comments and, certainly, your declaration of interest as a keen caravanner there. Understanding the frustrations of the petitioner too, we will write back to the Minister, as suggested by Rhys ab Owen, and bring this petition back once we've had a response to that letter.

Item 3.3, P-06-1398, 'To act to increase the effectiveness of Natural Resources Wales in halting pollution on the Teifi', submitted by Moira Williams, with a total of 1,321 signatures. Again, I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Looking at the responses the petitioner has sent us, I would have to agree with them. It sounds like the Cabinet Secretary is making the right noises, but it's ultimately now about whether or not they follow through with what needs to be done here. In terms of the petition itself, I'm not particularly clear as to what we might be able to do in terms of progressing this petition. When we look at NRW, I think the issues around funding, which are highlighted by the petitioners and, I think, the Cabinet Secretary as well, are funding issues. It's going to come down to the budget in the autumn now, put forward by the Welsh Government. So, what I would suggest, even though I might suggest that we close this petition, is that we also say to the petitioners that now is the time to start discussing with Members of the Senedd individually around their priorities for the Welsh Government budget so that Members can reflect that in the debates around the budget. I think that probably is the best way forward.

Diolch, Luke, for those suggestions. Gareth Price.

There is a Finance Committee-led debate before the end of term on funding priorities for the next budget round, and I think that what we've seen over the last couple of weeks is a number of petitions seeking funding priorities. There's the education one, which wanted more funding, there are the culture ones that we've been dealing with over the last couple of weeks, and this. I suspect that there is a package that we could put together for the Chair to make a contribution to that debate.

Yes. If I could suggest, then, that, as part of that debate the Chair—sorry to give you more work, Jack—contributes to that debate, just highlighting these petitions. 

Yes. Thanks, Gareth and Luke, for responding. I'm happy to have a conversation with the clerks outside the meeting about what that looks like, to certainly indicate the intention to speak in that debate. But, of course, we can also, as Luke Fletcher suggested, highlight the debate to the petitioners, and they can individually ask Members of the Senedd or their local representatives to consider speaking on such matters as well. Okay. We'll close the petition, then. Thank you. 

Item 3.4, P-06-1335, 'Welsh Government should take steps to ensure vulnerable adults without bank cards can pay with cash'. This was submitted by Mencap Cymru, with a total of 2,504 signatures. Members will be aware that we took evidence on this petition earlier in the year. We launched our report, with recommendations made to the Welsh Government, on 21 July, during Learning Disability Week. I'm grateful to Rhianon Passmore, who was at the event with Mencap Cymru here in the Senedd, and I'm also aware that Sioned Williams, as chair of the cross-party group on learning disability, attended the event and received a copy of our report. As with all reports made by this committee, there will be a Welsh Government response to it, and that report and response will be debated in the Chamber. So, I'm bringing this forward today for information and, therefore, we'll bring the petition back once the item has been debated on the floor of the Chamber, and consider any actions we may wish to take then. That will likely take place in the autumn now, after summer recess. Are Members happy, content? Yes. Okay. 

Item 3.5, P-06-1437, 'Increase, don’t cut, funding for the National Library, Amgueddfa Cymru and the Royal Commission', submitted by Susan Jane Jones Davies, with a total of 12,075 signatures. Again, I'll invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions the committee may wish to take and, again, thank members of the committee—again, Rhianon Passmore—who led the debate during my leave, on 26 June, when this petition was discussed on the floor of the Chamber. Rhianon.

Thank you very much, Chair. I think, if I can just go through some of the actions as a result of this petition in terms of the request for the urgent debate to Business Committee, the communications with the Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, and also to the Chair of the Finance Committee, the petitioner has managed to draw a great lens on this particular issue for Senedd Members and scrutiny. And, obviously, the consequent debate on 26 June was well attended and well contributed to in regard to this particular petition. And, obviously, I'll state once again that a number of cultural sectors are involved in some of these petitions thematically. 

So, in terms of where this goes next, I think the business of this committee, as a Petitions Committee, is coming to a close. I would propose that we probably close this particular petition. Obviously, we're very much indebted to the petitioner for raising this really important petition and thank them for drawing such a spotlight to this issue, and in terms of the number of committees that it's been discussed or presented at.

I thank Rhianon Passmore for those comments. Are Members content? I'm sure, as we've seen with other petitions—similar petitions—these issues will continue to be brought to the floor of the Senedd via other avenues as well. So, we'll thank the petitioner and close the petition.

Item 4, just some papers for the committee to note. Firstly is a paper to note for petition P-06-1368, 'The Welsh Govt should take steps to save the Environmental Information Regulations in relation to Wales', and a further paper to note, for petition P-06-1408, 'Make safe the access to the Secret Garden A4042 Goytre Fawr for both pedestrians and vehicles'. Are Members happy to note those papers? They are. Thank you.

That does conclude, then, today's public business. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content to do so? They are. Okay. We will meet again on 16 September 2024, which means today is our last session of this Senedd term. I'd like to thank all Members, both on the committee now and previous members of this committee, for their work over the last year, and, of course, the team that makes all this happen—the clerking teams, and so on. Thank you for all your work, and continued work as well. I look forward to coming back in September. We will now, in private, have a discussion on our summer plans, which will include the publication of our annual report and being visible at the Eisteddfod over the summer as well. So, keep an eye out for those, but, in the meantime, diolch yn fawr.