National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Natasha Asghar. 

Yes. Good progress is being made on our commitment to achieve 100 per cent fracture liaison service coverage across Wales by September 2024.

Thank you very much, First Minister. Just last week, your Government's Cabinet Secretary for health openly admitted that the NHS in Wales isn't performing well enough, as yet another record was reached on waiting times. According to your recent comments, these waiting times are your top priority, but there are other commitments you'll need to consider in tandem if you're to avoid breaking your promises. In September 2023, the health Secretary issued a statement committing to achieve, as you mentioned, 100 per cent coverage for all health boards by fracture liaison services by 2024. But, unfortunately, First Minister, we're now two thirds of the way through the 18-month timeline set out by the Cabinet Secretary, and only four out of the seven health boards even have these services. Sadly, this is just the tip of the iceberg, as only 21 per cent of fracture patients nationally are being identified in our Welsh NHS, due to underperformance in these services, even where they are now currently in place. As it now looks increasingly unlikely that this target set in February 2023 will be met, can you confirm today whether your Government is still committed to the 100 per cent figure, and, if so, that this will include access for everyone over 50 in Wales to a quality fracture liaison service that meets national clinical standard key performance indicators? Thank you.

We are on track to deliver the commitment made by the Cabinet Secretary for health. I look forward to the new services starting in September to deliver against that commitment. We recognise that fragility fractures can be painful and potentially debilitating. That's why we've recognised the role of fracture liaison services, which provide early intervention and easy access to osteoporosis care to reduce the risk of such fractures. And much progress has been made since Dr Inder Singh was appointed as the national clinical lead for falls and fragility in 2022. We've come a long way. There's more to go, but we remain on track to meet the commitment given by the Cabinet Secretary for health.

First Minister, on average, women lose up to 10 per cent of their bone mass in the first five years after menopause. Having lower levels of oestrogen increases the risk of developing osteoporosis, so women experiencing the menopause are at an increased risk of broken bones or fractures. The First Minister will be aware that one in two women over 50 will experience a broken bone in their lifetime. Fracture liaison services in all health board areas is a very welcome step forward, but what else is being done to improve bone health and NHS services in Wales?

Thank you for the question. It's an important point to make that we expect that one in two women over the age of 50 will experience a broken bone within that stage of their lifetime. Now, for us, that's both about the two points you make—about bone health and what we look to do to try to make sure that people can make their own choices about how to live well and improve their own bone health, as well as what the NHS does. That's the service model that fracture liaison services represent. It's also, though, about having access to the most up-to-date evidence and treatment support as well. That's why the Royal Osteoporosis Society recognised the decision by NICE—the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence—to make the first new osteoporosis drug treatment available in a decade. That new drug—I'm not going to pronounce the technical name as it's a bit of tongue-twister, with lots of z's in it—has been available in Wales since 2022. It's another example of where new medications are made available, recommended by NICE, in Wales, because of the way that we support that process and, indeed, the way we use our funding. That early access to evidence-based treatment is available all across Wales now. There will, of course, be more that we can do. As we roll out the fracture liaison service, we will learn lessons from its implementation, and I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary for health continuing to update people, in addition to the money that she has found to invest in the service. 

Of course, I welcome the creation of the fracture liaison services across Wales, but could you, First Minister, provide an update on the provision in Powys, where there are no district general hospitals, and how that service will be delivered?

It's a fair point, of course, because we expect all six health boards with secondary care hospitals to be on track to deliver the service by the end of September. Four already have that service. The other two we expect to be on track to deliver in September, meeting the commitment made by the Cabinet Secretary for health. There is a different model being developed in Powys because it doesn't have secondary care hospitals. So, in that unique position, Powys are working with neighbouring health boards to make sure that the population of Powys have access to that service. So, the model needs to deliver not just in the six health boards that have the hospital provision, but equitable care and access to it for residents in Powys, and we're on track to do so. Powys, of course, is used to having to provide these services in a different way—to commission and organise services within Wales and, indeed, sometimes across the border. So, we're clear that the pathway should be in place for people living in Powys to have the same equitable access to the same quality of care and the improvement that this service represents.

Ministers and Cabinet colleagues have met with both Jewish and Muslim leaders and community members since the start of the Israel-Gaza war. We continue to offer our condolences to all those people affected by the current crisis. A number of families and community groups are directly affected in communities across Wales. And we will continue to support any hate crime victims through our Wales Hate Support Centre.

Thank you for that answer.

Last week at a Senedd event, we heard from Mr and Mrs Brisley from Bridgend, whose daughter and granddaughters were killed by Hamas on 7 October. They said that they hadn't heard from anyone from the Welsh Government since the loss of their loved ones. I'd like to know if the same is true for all Welsh citizens who have lost relatives in the region during the last six and a half months of bloody conflict. I'd also like to know if any support has been given to Welsh citizens who have done everything they could, financially and emotionally, to get their relatives out of the danger zone in Gaza. Some of our residents with links to Palestine have gone into eye-watering debt to safeguard their loved ones. We really need safe passages set up to avert the escalating humanitarian disaster in Gaza, and I'd like to know what the Government can do about that. And finally, given the events since 7 October, with more than 30,000 people dead, and hostages still being held, does he now agree with Members on the Plaid Cymru benches that an immediate ceasefire is the only way to guarantee the end of the bloodshed, for the return of the hostages, and an end to the famine we are seeing in Gaza?

It's been the position of the Welsh Government for some time that there should be an immediate ceasefire. There needs to be a significant increase in routes for aid, as well as the amount of aid provided, because there is a very real humanitarian crisis taking place before us, in addition to resolving the issues around the atrocities that did take place on 7 October, which includes the release of all the hostages. Now, I don't think that, across this Chamber, people will disagree with that position. Our challenge is the level of influence we have on decision makers within the region, the talks that are taking place between different actors to try to generate a ceasefire, and the ability to stop the killing.

Now, when that comes to what we can do practically in Wales—you mentioned the family of Lianne Sharabi—we continue to provide practical support, in terms of the emotional well-being of people who live in Wales. I recognise that there are people on all sides of this conflict who are directly affected in constituencies and regions here in Wales. If the Member is able to provide me with more direct contact details for where the family are at present, and how they have or haven't accessed services, I'll happily make sure that the support that is available is provided to them. But we're really talking about practical and emotional support for families. This is an area where we don't have responsibility for dealing with both refugee and returns policies and family reunion. The Welsh Government has been clear, though, that we want a more generous approach to people seeking asylum, people fleeing war zones, and for a proper family reunion service. We actually provided funding towards the service provided by the Red Cross. As I say, I recognise that there's concern on all sides of this Chamber. We'll continue to play as constructive a role as we can do here in the Welsh Government, and with, as I say, the clarity in our call for a ceasefire, for an increase in aid and for the hostages to be released.

Thank you, First Minister, for that response. Like others in this Chamber, I have been very concerned about the increase in antisemitism, and, indeed, in anti-Muslim hatred, since 7 October, even on our streets here in Wales. Now, one of the things that the Welsh Government could do to try to address antisemitism, particularly on our university campuses, is to require, as a condition of funding for our universities, higher education institutions to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism. Is that something that your Government will require them to do? 

The Government, of course—this Welsh Government—has recognised the IHRA definition of antisemitism. So, it goes into the work that we do. It is part of how we see our delivery of a genuinely anti-racist Wales. I am pleased that the Member recognises that there has been both a rise in antisemitism on the streets in communities that we represent and, indeed, a rise in Islamaphobia. I have seen that in my own constituency, sadly. I'm not sure that the proposal he makes on requiring the recognition of the IHRA as a funding condition for universities will actually help to deliver the practical measures that we need to see a reduction in antisemitism and Islamaphobia on university campuses. I think it is part of a whole society challenge and effort, where you want people to be able to discuss topics in a way that is safe and does not increase the hate and the division that already exists. That will continue to guide the approach that this Government takes in our engagement with families, communities and wider stakeholders in Wales.

First Minister, many families in Newport East have been and are affected by the events in Israel and Gaza, and what they want, as we've already touched upon, is an immediate and permanent ceasefire, the release of hostages, sufficient humanitarian aid finding its way into Gaza and, indeed, the beginnings of a political process that will bring a lasting peaceful solution. António Guterres, the Secretary General of the United Nations, I believe has spoken very powerfully about these important moments in history and the need not to be a bystander. So, I would just say, First Minister, that we have different levels of responsibility, obviously, as you've touched upon, at different levels of Government, but it is really important for political leaders and politicians—all of us—at all levels not to be bystanders and to call for humanity to prevail.

Again, I don't think there is a single Member across this Chamber that would disagree with the sentiment and the statement made by John Griffiths. I'm interested in how innocent civilians, whether they be Israeli or Palestinian, can actually plan a future with the peace and security that we take for granted in this country. As I said, the Welsh Government is clear: we want to see an immediate end to the killing, a ceasefire; we want to see an immediate significant increase in the aid that can be provided; we want to see hostages returned. It remains my view that the long-term way to guarantee the stability and peaceful security that citizens should expect is for there to be a viable, secure Israel, as a neighbour to a viable and secure Palestinian state. We are a long way off from that being delivered in reality.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, why is the economy Minister's judgment on accepting political donations more principled than yours? 

I don't think there's a difference in principle at all. I have been clear, as, indeed, have both of the leadership campaigns from the recent past, that all donations will be declared in accordance with all of the requirements. They've been registered and recorded, they're available, and we will deal with not just the rules for the contest, the legal requirements, but we'll carry on being open about what has happened and the future. My own party is undertaking a review following our recent leadership contest. It was a very harmonious and positive meeting of the Welsh executive of Welsh Labour, the Member will be delighted to know, and we have agreement on a way forward to look at both communications with members, campaign finance, nominations and, indeed, the length of the contest. And I look forward to that objective group of people coming back with their report.

Obviously, that's an internal investigation, First Minister. I think most people objectively looking at this would agree with the economy Minister's assertion on The Politics Show that he wouldn't have taken a donation from a company that has numerous criminal convictions against it for environmental infringements. The news came out over the weekend of a company that is in receipt of a £400,000 loan from an organisation at arm's length from the Welsh Government that you were the Minister responsible for, and has numerous planning applications, in particular a solar park, before the Welsh Government's Planning Inspectorate at the moment. I think a reasonable person, which is what the ministerial code talks of, would say that there is a potential conflict of interest there in your good self and the person who made this donation. Would you agree with me that a reasonable person would draw the same conclusions as the economy Minister? If he was offered that donation, he would have turned it down.

I think a reasonable person would be interested in the facts. Let me run through the facts about the issue that you've raised about DBW's support. The development bank has given the following factual statement: in 2023 it agreed a loan to Neal Soil Suppliers for £400,000 that funded the purchase of a solar park within the Vale of Glamorgan constituency; that purchase has gone ahead and they are on track to repay that loan with interest in the five-year term agreed.

The development bank makes commercial loans and equity investments in small and medium businesses in Wales. Those lending and investment decisions are taken by the development bank, and they're wholly independent of Welsh Government Ministers. A reasonable person understanding the facts of the matter I don't think would then conclude that there is a conflict that exists.

Indeed, of course, within the ministerial code, there is the requirement to separate ministerial and constituency interests. The Member made reference to an application that may come before Welsh Ministers. As it's in my constituency, I cannot and will not have any part to play in that decision, a point that has been made very clearly by the housing, local government and planning Cabinet Secretary. I think a reasonable person would be interested in the facts.

I should also make clear that I believe that DBW is a Welsh success story. It has 11 active funds for business worth £1.2 billion, supporting more that 2,700 businesses across the country. When it comes to its commercial loan and equity investments, Ministers have not made a decision in any of those more than 2,700 investment choices.

This is having a real corrosive effect on the Government, as the silence of your own benches is showing here before everyone today. There cannot be any question that that reasonable person that you and I are referring to would draw the conclusion that the economy Secretary drew, that this donation should not have been accepted.

I said to you, First Minister, in a letter that the way to address this would be in the way that your predecessor did in 2017 when there were issues that were deflecting from the important work of Government—to appoint an independent adviser on the ministerial code to look at this and actually address these concerns that people have. Regrettably, this morning, you have sent me a letter saying you will not undertake that perfectly reasonable proposition of having an independent adviser to look into the suggestions that have been put around this donation.

I would prefer to be here questioning you today about the crisis in the cancer services across Wales that the director of Macmillan Wales highlighted in his comments on the weekend. I would urge you again, First Minister, given the severity of some of the assertions that have been made, and in particular the corrosive nature of those assertions, to look at the appointment of an independent adviser to address these concerns and provide you with what I hope is a clean bill of health—I genuinely hope that—so that you as First Minister, along with the rest of the Government, can get on with that important work of delivering on reducing the health waiting times, getting our economy moving and improving educational attainment across Wales. That is the agenda that the Government should be addressing, not week after week seeing these various bits of information appearing around the donations that were made to your leadership campaign, which the economy Secretary said he wouldn't have accepted.

Let's go back again to the facts. The donations have been declared for both leadership campaigns. When it comes to support provided by the Development Bank of Wales, it made an investment choice with a commercial loan more than a year ago, and that has gone into the purchase of an individual asset, and repayments are being made in line with the terms of that loan. All of those loan and equity investments to businesses in Wales are made independent of the Welsh Government by the Development Bank of Wales. Those are the facts. There is no reason to undertake an investigation when the facts are so clear and unambiguous. And I say again, the Development Bank of Wales is a Welsh success story. More than 2,700 businesses are supported by its activity. It makes those choices independently of the Welsh Government. And all of those issues will affect constituencies and regions across Wales represented by different Members in this Chamber. I'm very clear about the fact that those are the facts.

There is no reason to undertake an individual independent investigation simply on the basis of an opposition press release. I agree with the leader of the opposition, though, that the really important business for the future of our country goes back to the priorities that I set out last week—the priorities facing families in every constituency, people who are worried about whether they're going to be able to pay their bills at the end of the month, people who have permanently seen a rise in their mortgage payments, thanks, of course, to what's happened over the last few years. This Government is focused on the reality of the cost-of-living crisis, the increased tax burden for working people, the reality that we do have more to do on a range of issues. That's why I'm so delighted that the talks started yesterday with the British Medical Association to help resolve industrial action. We will remain focused on the challenges that face Wales. That is the view of all Ministers in this Government. That is what Welsh Labour will be taking forward in our purpose—delivering for Wales. 

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Diolch, Llywydd. It's over a month now since the First Minister took office. This is his second scrutiny session. These questions just aren't going away, are they? We've had the sheer scale of the payments to his leadership campaign—£200,000. We've had the source of that money—a convicted polluter. Then we know that that company was in debt to the First Minister's own Government. Everybody in this Chamber should want to defend Welsh democracy from the harm those kinds of actions can cause. Now, with even Labour MSs speaking out, and a member of his own Government, his rival in the leadership contest, we know that most Senedd Members here believe he's shown poor judgment.

But so that we can understand, when the money was offered, did the First Minister ask who it was from, was told about the donor's criminal past and said, 'Ah, it doesn't matter, I'll take the money anyway', in which case, that raises fundamental questions of judgment, or was it that despite the scale of this donation, he didn't think to ask for proper due diligence? That would, again, be very poor judgment. Which was it?

All of the due diligence was undertaken about whether this was a permissible donor that money could be accepted from, and it was declared properly and it's on the record now. It's worth pointing out, actually, that for any of the donors to either of the leadership campaigns, there will be processes in place to make sure that those individuals cannot make choices about those businesses that have donated, and that's to make sure that the ministerial code is properly adhered to and that we don't have conflicts of interest. 

I'm very clear—and the Member made the point, again, made by the leader of the Conservatives—about the reality that the Development Bank of Wales had provided loan support, loan support provided without any reference to Welsh Government Ministers, no involvement in the process, with their own individual assessment of whether that loan should be provided, and it was used for the purpose that it was given—the purchase of a solar farm—and it's on track to be repaid within the term. I'm very comfortable that the Development Bank of Wales could and should run its own business without ministerial interference in individual loan and investment choices. That in itself would be a real problem, and one that I will not undertake.

The fact that you registered a donation from a convicted polluter doesn't make it good judgment to have accepted that donation. We've long associated Westminster with sleaze; that is not what we want here in Wales. In his acceptance speech, the new First Minister said he wanted to lead a country full of hope, ambition and unity. He can't even unite his own party on whether he was right or not, and I'm not surprised there's obvious unease on his own benches, front and back. 

Now, the revelation that Dauson is in debt to the Development Bank of Wales has raised concerns even more because it goes to the heart of Government operations, and the First Minister shouldn't here be deflecting this on to the Development Bank of Wales. We're not questioning the integrity of the Development Bank of Wales, we're questioning his integrity. The ministerial code is clear:

'Ministers must ensure that no conflict arises, or appears to arise, between their public duties and their private interests'.

Private interest, in this case, would be a leadership contest for the Labour Party.

'Ministers should not accept any gift or hospitality which might, or might reasonably appear to, compromise their judgement'.

Now, I believe that that threshold has been reached, and it's why I wrote to the Permanent Secretary, asking for a full independent inquiry and for the findings to be made public. Now, given the public, I think, would have little confidence in the First Minister himself acting as judge and jury in his own case, would he agree on the need for an inquiry to be independent?

Well, let's go back to the facts: when it comes to the choice made by DBW—and you are questioning the choice—the choice is made independently by the—[Interruption.] The choice is made independently by the development bank. It independently decides whether to invest or not, and that is entirely separate from any choice made by a Welsh Government Minister. If a Welsh Government Minister doesn't have any engagement or involvement in the choice, it's hard to see how there is a conflict. And more than that, of course, this is a business within my constituency, and the ministerial code is crystal clear that I cannot make choices about businesses within my constituency. It's therefore difficult to see where there is a reason or evidence to support an independent investigation. And, in fact, as we've been through last week, it's a regular feature that Ministers have to separate out their own constituency interests. It happens, for example, when submissions are made around Celsa Steel UK, based in my constituency—I cannot and do not make choices around them. It's exactly the same for other businesses if there is an issue where a Welsh Minister needs to make a choice.

And when it comes to the future, I've been crystal clear about the support for a new environmental governance regime, increasing standards for what we expect of businesses and their environmental footprint. That remains a commitment of this Government; I look forward to that coming into legislation during this term.

And when it comes to unity, the Welsh executive committee of Welsh Labour has been very united—a very positive meeting took place on Saturday. There's unity about the process we're undertaking, moving forward, and, indeed, the focus on the priorities I set out last week: the families who are interested in whether they can pay their bills at the end of the month, and the businesses that are worried about whether they're going to have the sort of future and stability in the Government they want to see at a Welsh and a UK level. The challenge is over a different frame of investment in our public services and support for the economy. Those are the priorities that this Government will continue to focus on, and all Members of our Government will continue to do so.

Perhaps it's because people are struggling financially that they can't understand why this First Minister is so flippant about a gift of £200,000. And for the record, I'm not questioning a decision made by the Development Bank of Wales; the choice that we're talking about here was the choice of the First Minister to accept or not accept that money.

Now, the First Minister has now commissioned one of his predecessors, Carwyn Jones, to undertake a review of the rules surrounding donations in its leadership contests. In the interests of transparency, it's regrettable that the First Minister chose a party insider rather than somebody unaffiliated to Labour to do that review, but at least there is hope that Carwyn Jones won't pull his punches, having previously called the donations 'unfortunate' and claiming that the First Minister has lessons to learn.

Now, the last First Minister told me in this Chamber that the Labour leadership contest was none of my business. I think all of this shows it is all of our business. It's ultimately the Labour Party that chose this First Minister, so in that context, will he commit to making the findings of that review public?

There are two things. The first is I'm glad the Member has made clear now that he does not challenge the DBW decision. That accepts the objectivity of that decision and the lack of any kind of influence of Welsh Ministers. If you don't accept that, you can't say you're not challenging the decision and the facts about how it independently comes to investment choices. And if, actually, you recognised there is no challenge around its choice, it's hard to see how there is a reason to investigate that. What is there to be investigated if you accept there is no challenge to the decision? If you don't like the way that donations are provided within the contest, well that's a different issue, and that's nothing to do with DBW's choice.

When you look at what we are able to do, I think it is important that my party undertakes a process after the leadership contest, to learn lessons and to move forward. It'll be a decision for the Welsh executive committee, when it receives the report, about what it publishes. I have no doubt at all that it will be in the public domain. In the meantime, and even after that, I look forward to the challenges and the opportunities that this year presents: the challenges that we face with a current UK Government that is not a friend of Wales; the opportunity to argue for an entirely different future, opportunities that you will hear set out again today—last week by Huw Irranca-Davies in his new brief; today, you'll hear from the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, and indeed the economy and energy Secretary, setting out what we are looking to do within the rest of this year, and the opportunities for the future to create the better Wales that this Government is committed to delivering.

Thank you. Workplace health and safety is a matter for employers. However, we have reached an agreement with fire and rescue authorities and unions on reducing the risks of cancer that firefighters may face in their work.

Thank you for that response, First Minister.

The University of Central Lancashire was commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union to conduct the UK firefighter contamination survey in order to provide an evidence base for understanding the risks and common sources of contaminant exposure to firefighters, and the findings were stark. Instances of cancer among firefighters aged 35 to 39 are up to 323 per cent higher than in the general population in the same age category. That's 323 per cent higher.

Now, work, of course, is under way to better protect firefighters from exposure, as we see through the DECON campaign, but there is currently no form of preventative cancer or other disease monitoring programme in place for UK firefighters. Now, a study of occupational disease mortality rates of Scottish firefighters concludes that preventative health monitoring is urgently required to protect UK firefighters' health. Does the First Minister agree, and will he commit now to bringing in specific health monitoring for Welsh firefighters?

There are two things. The first is I understand the occupational risks for a range of different workers, including firefighters. In fact, during my career as a trade union solicitor before coming to this place, I worked on cases, and personal injury cases as well as, indeed, employment cases, that looked directly at consequences for firefighters when they've attended incidents to protect the public. So, I recognise this is a very real issue for this group of workers and, potentially, for others.

I'm pleased he's mentioned the research that the FBU commissioned from the University of Central Lancashire. Actually, we've taken that through our social partnership forum and we haven't just considered their recommendations, but we're looking for work that can be done to understand what we can do to improve the occupational health and safety position for firefighters.

When it comes to his specific request around cancer screening for firefighters as an occupational group, we'd need to see an evidence base that comes through the advice that we get as a Government and for our service through the UK National Screening Committee. We'll continue to monitor not just the evidence base, but recommendations from that key committee about how we make best use of our resources. If we deploy them into a particular area, then there may be a challenge about whether those screening resources could be used to greater effect in different areas of the population. So, that evidence will guide us about the best use of resources to deliver the best return, but, whether firefighters or otherwise, there is clear guidance available, if people are concerned about symptoms or occupational exposure, about where they can go for both support and advice in the world of work and outside it.

First Minister, recent research has shown that there's a direct correlation between exposure of firefighters to fire effluents and poor mental health. In particular, it's been shown that endocrine disrupters, such as polychlorinated biphenyls, which are gas-phase flame retardants used in furniture and carpet padding and in hard plastic casings, not only lead to hormone imbalances and neuroendocrine dysfunction, but can also lead to conditions such as depression and anxiety. Studies have shown, for example, that pregnant women face a heightened risk of depression and anxiety, and exposure to these chemicals, especially during the first three months of pregnancy, has a potential knock-on effect for the children, who, as a result of maternal depression, are more likely to experience general psychopathology, exhibit more internalising and externalising problems, and suffer from diminished cognitive functioning as well as to display sub-optimal physical growth. With this in mind, First Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that fire and rescue services in Wales inform their staff of the risks to mental health from exposure to these chemicals, and what steps are you taking to enforce strict codes of practice that reduce the likelihood of chronic exposure? Thank you.

Thank you. There are a number of different points. It's worth reflecting, from the initial question, on the research undertaken by the University of Central Lancashire and what it means. Part of this was about how to protect firefighters from exposure to contaminants that may be linked to cancer. There are broader potential impacts as well, and none of these should surprise us. If you're going into a fire incident, the nature of the chemicals and the change that takes place can't always be accurately predicted. There is, though, an evidence base about the links to exposure and also what that then means for the breathing apparatus provided to firefighters in those circumstances. That underpins the work that's been done, and we have reached agreement on taking forward a number of the recommendations, and fire and rescue authorities are looking at that. Now, obviously, Julie James is now the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the fire service, so we'll be coming back to that, not just through social partnership, but in the updates we get on whether that is being taken forward by fire and rescue authorities based on the recommendations made in the FBU report. So, we have agreed on a programme for work; it's now about making sure that's carried through, and then whether we see an improvement in the physical and mental health impacts for our firefighters.

Yes. This Government is committed to increasing new patient access as part of dental reform and, since April 2022, over 320,000 new patients have gained access to an NHS dentist across Wales, including nearly 62,000 new patients in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board area.

There is no dental practice in Arfon that is receiving new NHS patients, and it appears that they've also had to close their waiting lists. Many of my constituents are unable to access the public dental service, which is an entirely unacceptable situation. A dental academy was opened in Bangor at the end of 2022, with a promise by the health board that this would be the first step to tackle the lack of NHS dentists across north Wales. The academy has been promoted several times by Ministers in the same terms. I understand that the academy has closed its books to NHS patients. They're not accepting NHS patients to be seen, nor are they accepting them on waiting lists either. But they do welcome private patients. Will you intervene as a matter of urgency to ensure that the scheme for the dental academy is delivered in full?

My understanding is that the ground floor is now fully operational, with just over 3,000 patients seen since it opened in September 2022. It is still intended that the second floor of the new dental academy will be operational for a community dental service, and that will again take in, obviously, NHS patients. I'm not aware of the individual specifics of the plan for when that should be operational. We do understand that there has been a delay. I'll liaise with the Cabinet Secretary for health to ensure that there is a factual briefing about the current position, but also, from the Member's point, I think it's entirely fair and reasonable for her to expect an update on what can be expected in the future for the provision of NHS dentistry and the capacity we recognise is required, which is why we've actually engaged in looking to create the dental academy in Bangor in the first place. I'm more than happy to make sure the Member gets a proper briefing and update on the future.

Siân Gwenllian's absolutely right to raise this, because far too many people in Arfon and across north Wales sadly do not have access to an NHS dentist, an issue that Members in the Chamber have been raising for a long time, an issue that I personally raised with the health Minister more than 12 months ago, and we were told then that this was being sorted. And we've heard just last month from the chairman of the Welsh general dental practice committee, and I quote, that more people might be forced to pull out their own teeth because of the lack of proper access. So, clearly, something isn't working, First Minister. So, what do you say today to people in Arfon and across Wales who are facing the decision of DIY dentistry?

We're committed to reforming not just the NHS dental contract, but the reason why contract reform matters is because it will unlock new capacity for NHS dentistry. That's why we're investing in that difficult process. But it's actually delivering more capacity within our NHS. And within that, we need to both make sure we have the conversation with the profession and with the public about where we understand there are still gaps, and, where people do return their NHS contracts, to make sure that there is NHS provision that remains available. This is one of the top priorities for the Cabinet Secretary for health. She has proactively made that clear, that she's interested in the future of reform and access to NHS dentistry. It'll carry on being the case that we'll look for opportunities to invest and to make sure we do provide the sort of NHS provision that communities rightly expect.

First Minister, we have heard a lot about problems in accessing dentistry, especially in north Wales, from professional bodies and also constituents, following the pandemic. I understand that there are some promising pilot projects to bring mobile dentistry to schools in north Wales, which is really important for our children. Will this be available more widely?

Yes. I am pleased that Carolyn Thomas has referred to the initial stage of the pilot. There is a dental therapist mobile dental facility that is currently co-located at Ysgol y Moelwyn in Blaenau Ffestiniog, and they carry out assessments for 11 and 12-year-old pupils. Those are clinically effective and evidence based. That's one of the things that we're looking to import into the contract to make sure there's a clear evidence base about how dental activity is run and performed. The first stage of that programme is being evaluated and the initial results look positive, so there is a plan to make sure that the mobile unit can move on to more school provision, and the next school should be in the Bala area, with three more schools across north Wales identified. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary for health would be more than happy to make sure the Member is updated on their progress.FootnoteLink

Thank you for the question. We remain deeply concerned about the ongoing conflict, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and the wider impacts in the region. We continue to work closely with Jewish and Muslim leaders to support community cohesion and ensure that any victims of hate can continue to get support through the Wales Hate Support Centre.

I'm grateful to the First Minister for that response. My question follows question 2 earlier. I think it's worth us reflecting on what happened to Gill and Pete Brisley from Pencoed. Their daughter, Lianne, lived in Kibbutz Be'eri in southern Israel. The family had two daughters, Yahel, aged 16, and Noiya, aged 13. On 7 October, Lianne was murdered. She was murdered along with both her daughters, Yahel and Noiya. Her husband was taken hostage by Hamas. His brother, Yossi, was also taken hostage that morning. We now know that Yossi was murdered by Hamas whilst in captivity. The whereabouts and status of Eli are still unknown.

The family have been through a brutalising and tragic and horrific experience on 7 October, and we've seen since then the heartbreaking scenes that have unfolded across the middle east, and the impact on people here in Wales. Other Members have expressed that already this afternoon. I've discussed these issues with Huw Irranca-Davies, the local Member for the family, and also I know that Chris Elmore, the MP for the area, has also been active, supporting the family. Would it be possible, First Minister, for you to meet this family, who've been through such a brutal experience, and to look at how we as a Senedd and yourselves as a Welsh Government can provide support for people who have been through these experiences and continue to pray for the safe return of their son-in-law?

I think this painfully highlights the very real human impact of what happened not just on 7 October but what has taken place since then as well, and the images that we've all seen on such an appallingly regular basis. You don't need to be a parent to understand the real human tragedy and impact that is unfolding.

I'm pleased that the Member has mentioned that these are constituents of Huw Irranca-Davies. Of course, he is not in a position to ask me questions at this point. I'll be more than happy to work with Alun Davies and Huw Irranca-Davies to understand what practical support we might be able to provide to the family and then to see if this is an individual circumstance where that support may be required, or whether actually there is a wider opportunity to better support people directly affected by the conflict. I know from my own experience in my own constituency that I have families directly affected on all sides of the conflict. So, this isn't just an issue that has taken place somewhere else. There is a real impact in communities right across our own country, which is why we do need to continue to take an interest; even though we're not decision makers in the conflict, we have to deal with the consequences of what is happening and how we properly support our own citizens. We're more than happy to take up that conversation purposefully with the constituency Member and the family, bearing in mind it's also been raised in a previous question by a different Member as well.

Prif Weinidog, this role affords us many opportunities, and the opportunity to hear the Brisleys share their story of the devastating murder of their daughter and two granddaughters in the 7 October attacks carried out by Hamas terrorists is one of the most powerful and poignant events that I've experienced in my time as a Member of this place. It was a privilege to co-sponsor the event with the Member for Blaenau Gwent, and, as he mentioned, the Brisleys' son-in-law Eli remains a hostage, and I'm sure the whole Chamber wishes for his safe and speedy release.

Now, while the Brisleys heard and had correspondence from the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary, they received nothing from the Welsh Government, which, as a Welshman, for me, is a source of regret. Will you confirm to meet with the Brisleys and any other families who have loved ones caught up in the conflict in the middle east?

I think what is most important, really, is how we properly support people directly affected. I'm not aware that the Welsh Government has had correspondence from the Brisley family; I know there's been direct contact with Chris Elmore, and I know that the Senedd Member here has had contact with the family in the way that we provide that supportive work. So, I want to understand what contact there has been, and, indeed, how we ensure that ongoing support is appropriate and co-ordinated with and for the family. I think that's the right way forward. And, bearing in mind what I've said to the Member for Blaenau Gwent about wanting to have a purposive way forward that supports the family, to understand not just their individual circumstances, but how we better support people who will undoubtedly be directly affected, is the right way forward.

Thank you for the question. Last year, the chief scientific adviser for health published a report describing the challenges that our NHS in Wales is likely to face over the next 10 years. It is our belief that 'A Healthier Wales', our long-term 10-year plan for health and care, remains the appropriate response to those challenges. There will, of course, be funding and resourcing issues to deliver the health service and the care service that we believe the people of Wales deserve.

Thank you for that response, First Minister. I fear, though, that the Welsh Government's current approach to tackling the crisis in our NHS is far too short-sighted. Having spoken to many GP surgeries, it's clear that they are facing ever-increasing pressures as their workload increases, but this isn't matched with the resources they need. Indeed, many are having to step away from providing services that they don't get paid for but are extremely valued by patients, and this leads to patients entering long waiting lists for procedures once assessed—previously assessed quickly by their GPs. If improving the health service is genuinely a high priority and prevention is crucial to you, will you commit to reviewing GP contracts to ensure that they can provide the levels of care desperately needed by our citizens?

There are a couple of points to mention, and the first is a point for the Member, and, I think, for every Member in the Chamber—and I just want to make the point because you represent part of the Aneurin Bevan health board in Gwent—about the current outbreak of measles. I hope it will be a point of agreement that vaccination is a hugely effective intervention, but it's one where we have seen a fall-off in vaccination rates; some of our children and adults are not vaccinated or are under-vaccinated. And, so, actually, whilst in Wales the good news is that we have a better rate of vaccination than England, we actually need to raise our vaccination levels in Wales. We previously saw last year an outbreak in Cardiff, and I hope that all Members across the Senedd, in whatever we say about the health service, can reiterate the need to ensure that vaccinations are undertaken and to support people to go to the catch-up services that are available. Because in the Member's region, there are people who have measles, which is a serious illness, who need not be in that position.

On your broader point about GP contract reform, of course, general practice helps undertake a range of vaccination services. I'm very keen to make sure that we take advantage of the different ways in which we can use the services right across primary care. So, as well as contract reform for our GPs, which is an ongoing process, more steps have been taken by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, as indeed I have undertaken, as indeed have previous health Ministers, a number of whom are available in this room. So, that contract reform will carry on. The purpose of it is to make sure that we properly reward and support our GPs and the wider primary healthcare team to deliver healthcare in a context that is constantly changing. People often think of accident and emergency departments as the front door of the health service; actually, the biggest front door is general practice, where the great majority of contacts take place. That's also why, in addition to contract reform for GPs, we have progressively and successively looked at contract reform for pharmacy, community pharmacy, but also for high-street optometry services as well—opticians, in old money, depending on your vintage—in addition to what we were talking about earlier, and that's dental reform as well. There's a massive reform process, and each year we make more progress on a better use of our resources, a better use of the time of health and care professionals, and that is a road we must continue to travel down.

Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. One of the really key things that you need when you're assessing a health service is data. And just to draw us back to the issue around dentistry, it is the case that the Welsh Government still does not have a centralised waiting list for those people who need an NHS dentist. So that, to me, says that you don't know what the need is across Wales. Some health boards do have a waiting list—Powys is one. In Powys, if you're looking for an NHS dentist, you phone up a helpline, they take your details and, as soon as a space becomes available for an NHS dentist, they let you know. Now that is a good system. Sadly, that is not the situation in Dwyfor Meirionnydd. And it's staggering that you had to learn that the situation in Dwyfor Meirionnydd is that nobody can access an NHS dentist. So, surely the way forward is for the Welsh Government to move forward to have a centralised waiting list that makes sure that you know what the demand is, you know what the need is and therefore you're able to respond. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you for the question. 

I think there is much that is not just sensible in what the Member has said, but it's actually where this Welsh Government wants to get to as well. And I can tell her that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regularly talks to me about the need to ensure that we have more investment in our digital and data systems within the NHS so that they're fit for purpose, they can help both the professional practitioners, but also the individual person, to take part in their own treatment and care, and to understand where those opportunities exist to do better.

We are looking at the system you referred to in Powys, the roll-out and the lessons learned, to use Powys as a first example for the roll-out of a national system. It is later than any of us would have wanted, but we are committed to doing so. And as you said, it's really important to understand where that unmet need is and then how we deploy resources to meet the needs of the person who needs health and care support, and to make sure that we have our staff and resource in the right position. So, I'm hopeful that, in the coming months, you'll get to see more about not just what the roll-out looks like, but then the lessons learned from that initial phase. Then, I would like to see greater pace injected into that roll-out across the country, as I know the Member would do too.

Thank you for the question. The UK Government’s decision not to fund its local air quality grant scheme does not impact Wales. It solely supports English local authorities, which will not have access to that scheme. However, in Wales, on 19 April, the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs agreed a £1 million budget for Wales’s local air quality management support fund for the financial year that we are now in.

Well, thank you very much, First Minister, for looking into that and also for the response of the Cabinet Secretary, because we know that thousands of children are living on polluted roads. They don't choose to live there, they are obliged to live there because that is the only choice open to them. And we absolutely have to bear down on this as one of the main sources of pollutants, along with fossil fuels generally, both used for heating and for driving motor cars. So, I wondered if you could tell us if the scheme that the Welsh Government is now going to push ahead with will not be impacted in any way by the consequentials that might have been received by the Welsh Government as a result of the UK Government simply turning its back on air pollution, it would seem. 

I think there are two broad points to mention. The first is that the decision made by Steve Barclay is simply for England. He decided not to carry on funding local air quality management scheme support in England. That would have been £6 million in England that is now not going to happen because he's scrapped the scheme. Actually, what we're doing in Wales with the £1 million that Huw Irranca-Davies has decided to invest in this area does mean that we're going to carry on the support. The contrast, I think, is that if in Wales we had gone ahead with a scheme of a similar size to the £6 million in England, then it would have been an approximate two-thirds reduction in the scheme that we're undertaking. So, actually, the level of support here in Wales is significantly better even if England had gone ahead with the scheme that it has.

We recognise the environmental health and well-being benefits that improved air quality can deliver. We recognise we have really challenging spots in different communities in Wales. This is about how we'll support communities and local authorities to try and make a real difference and to then understand the broader action we need to take countrywide. So, I do believe that there is a more positive future for us, a future that looks at air quality, that looks at the future of our economy, that looks at the future of transport. Our journey to net zero is an important one for us in environmental health terms, and I believe—and you'll hear later today from the economy and energy Secretary—actually, a future that looks for more investment and more opportunities in a genuinely sustainable economy.

Finally, question 8, Cefin Campbell.

Thank you for the question.

We are focusing on improving rail services, integrating public transport options, and meeting the needs of future generations across Mid and West Wales.

Thank you very much. We've heard the Government saying a number of times that getting people out of their cars is a key priority, and that of course is in order to address climate change and also to reach net zero. I hope I can assume that the new Minister for transport is of the same view as his predecessor on this issue. If so, I have to say that not only is this not being delivered in Mid and West Wales, but I fear that things have moved backwards, if I'm honest. I've mentioned on a number of occasions in this Chamber the impacts of cuts to bus services in rural areas, and the poor service on our railways too, which have the worst customer satisfaction scores in the UK. And we've heard recently about further cuts to the Cambrian line and the Heart of Wales line. This means services being cut from five times a day to four times a day from December this year onwards, and scrapping evening services from Swansea to Llandrindod Wells and Llandovery. Can I ask you, First Minister: how can you ask people to leave their vehicles if we can't provide public transport that is reliable?

Thank you for the follow-up question. I think this recognises some of the challenges we have, not just in financing, but in getting more people to use the options that we have.

So, on the bus grant, we've been through this many times in the Chamber, and our ability to keep on supporting the service and the network ahead of the re-regulation of buses and how we persuade more people to use our transport system. I actually am firmly convinced, as indeed is the whole of this Government, that re-regulating the buses with a Bill that'll be introduced in this Senedd term will not just be a better way of organising the service, it'll actually deliver better value for money and allow us to then invest in and expand the network.

When it comes to rail, of course, which is much more expensive than buses, the review that's been undertaken by Transport for Wales has looked at the Heart of Wales line and the real challenges of a very poorly used service with a significant subsidy on it. They're looking at how they can then invest in different routes, including bus services, to make sure there are real public transport options. They've done that by consulting openly with elected representatives, and indeed looking at rail passenger groups to understand the reality of how that service that is proposed to move from five to four is actually being currently used and what that might mean in the future. These are the choices that are our public transport services are going to need to make, not just within our budget envelope, but then how we persuade more people to make effective use of the services that we have, and allow us a platform to invest in them in the future, and I look forward to being able to do just that.

I thank the First Minister.

The next item, therefore, will be the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are two changes to this week's business. Two of today's oral statements have been extended to 45 minutes and the titles have been updated. Finally, the time allocated to tomorrow’s Senedd Commission questions has been reduced to 10 minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

The newly appointed NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee met this morning, Trefnydd, and, disappointingly, voted on a decision to accept the closure of Welshpool and Caernarfon air ambulance bases. I'm disappointed, therefore, that there is not a statement in this Chamber this afternoon, or scheduled for tomorrow, on such an important issue that affects tens of thousands of people across mid and north Wales.

But also, Minister, it's not just the public who are concerned with this proposal. In Powys, for example, we have no district general hospital, so we're more dependent on a critical air ambulance service, and so many clinicians based at the Welshpool and Caernarfon bases are also opposing the decision as well on clinical grounds, and clinicians and professionals across other areas as well. Also, Minister, Powys health board and Betsi Cadwaladr health board rejected these proposals as well at this morning's meeting. So, this is not just members of the public; these are professionals as well saying that this is the wrong decision. I'd therefore like the Minister to consider calling in this decision, to allow for proper scrutiny, and for this decision to be made by Welsh Ministers following debate in this Chamber.

There's also concern about the process. Originally, proposals were leaked over two years ago to close Welshpool and Caernarfon bases, and, at the time, that was based on evidence, we were told, that 583 additional scene attendances would be achieved. That has since been discredited, and it seems that, since then, evidence has tried to be found to fit the original proposals made two years ago. I'm appalled at how this process has developed over the past two years—the lack of transparency and a lack of listening to the public and professionals as well. So, can I ask, Trefnydd, that the health Minister, or the First Minister, make a statement to this Chamber, either today or tomorrow, and make themselves available to answer questions on such an important issue to the people of mid and north Wales?

Diolch yn fawr, Russell George. It is important that you have had this opportunity today in the business statement to raise this point, because the final decision, as you said, which comes after 18 months of engagement, was made earlier today by the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee. Plans will now be developed to consolidate services currently provided at Welshpool and Caernarfon at a new site in north-east Wales, and this will mean that everyone who currently receives those emergency medical retrieval and transfer services will continue to receive care. 

Obviously, you've been involved, as you say, Russell—and colleagues—with the engagement. There's been much correspondence setting out concerns and questions, but the evidence is that the change will improve access to this life-saving service for people in parts of Wales who currently have no or limited access at night. So, we understand the strength of feeling expressed by people living in parts of mid and north Wales, especially in those close to the existing bases, but, ultimately, the decision will improve the care and outcomes for people in north and mid Wales if they suffer a life-threatening emergency that requires EMRTS support, especially at night. 

I would also add that the joint commissioning committee has been assured by the chief ambulance services commissioner that all concerns have been addressed through correspondence with the relevant parties. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has received written assurances from the review team about the level of engagement undertaken and how local residents' feedback has informed the review process.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for two statements, if I may. The first statement that I would like is from the First Minister, responding to all of the reports around the £200,000 that he accepted as part of his leadership campaign. We have heard questions once again this week, and we don't feel that the answers are adequate. For the credibility of this Senedd, we need a full statement, an unambiguous statement, from the First Minister, so that we can get the necessary answers for us as a Senedd. 

Secondly, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport in terms of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. You will be aware that we had a written statement from his predecessor, but you will also know that many Members in this Chamber are very eager to see the Government making progress in this area, including, of course, the Welsh Youth Parliament, who were determined that this should proceed. It's important that we have an opportunity to ask questions and also to understand what the Welsh Government's priorities are in ensuring that nobody misses a day's school because they can't afford the bus.

Thank you, Heledd Fychan, for your questions.

In terms of your first question, extensive discussion has already taken place on this issue. The emergency question, in fact, wasn't approved by the Llywydd today and has been fully addressed today by the First Minister. And also, just in terms of the response the First Minister gave this morning about the role and the work that's being undertaken now, which was supported by the Welsh executive committee this weekend, a review is being undertaken of our leadership contest arrangements. So, a clear process is now in place with that proposal. And also, obviously, to follow up what the First Minister said, all donations to the campaigns were legally compliant and were reported transparently. The review will report in the autumn, and the panel will begin its work shortly.

Also, in terms of the questions that have been raised in terms of the Development Bank of Wales, again, there have been extensive responses to that as well. But I think it is important, yet again, just to say, or add perhaps to responses that were given by the First Minister today, that investment decisions being taken by the Development Bank of Wales are wholly independent of the Welsh Government. And also, I'll just perhaps add that the framework document between the Welsh Government and the development bank sets out how the relationship between Government and the bank is managed and operated. And just to quote, it explicitly states that, 'Welsh Ministers and Welsh Government officials shall take no part in day-to-day operational matters, commercial matters or decision making throughout the DBW group, specifically no interference from Welsh Government on investment operations.'

Mike Hedges.

Sorry, I've got a second question from Heledd Fychan. I will raise this, in terms of an update on the learner travel Measure, with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, and I'm sure that that will be forthcoming.

I'm asking for two statements. The first is on housing. I've delivered over 3,000 leaflets across Swansea East in April, and between 1 per cent and 2 per cent of all properties were empty. Together with the failure of the Westminster Government to raise local housing allowance, this has led to an increased shortage of affordable properties. I'm asking for an update on local housing allowances and whether the Welsh Government could consider what further action can be taken regarding long-term empty properties.

The second statement I'm asking for is on physician associates. Physician associates are graduates who are undertaking postgraduate training and work under the supervision of a doctor. What thought was given to formally designing and evidencing the role, and how will it be evaluated? Because if it works well, it could transform primary care.

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. Your first question on housing is crucially important. As you noticed—and I think we all do as we campaign in our constituencies, our communities, and meet people on the street—we recognise that empty homes are there, and they're a blight and a nuisance on our communities. It's important just to remind colleagues that, in January last year, the Welsh Government announced an empty homes grant scheme, to bring up to 2,000 long-term empty properties back into use. Grants of up to £25,000 are available for home owners, or prospective home owners, to remove significant hazards from their properties to make them safe to live in and to improve their energy efficiency. We're also supporting local authorities to use their full range of legislative powers at their disposal to tackle empty properties. This actually includes training for councillors and officials across local government on using enforcement measures to deal with empty properties. Also, to reassure colleagues across the Chamber, the empty homes grants scheme has a budget of £25 million in this financial year, and work is being accelerated to bring empty properties back into use and complement our existing schemes.

Your second question also is a really important question around physician associates. They are graduates, they've undertaken postgraduate training and they work, as you say, under the supervision of a doctor. We're committed to developing multidisciplinary team working around the patient, and this includes the use of physician associates in primary care. There's been a lot of interest, as you've raised, Mike Hedges, in Wales and the rest of the UK, with the BMA, the Royal College of Anaesthetists and the General Medical Council. There's a lot of comment on this. BMA Cymru has raised concerns about the deployment and scope of practice of physicians within NHS Wales, but we would like to say, as a Welsh Government, that physician associates are an important and valued part of the NHS Wales workforce, and we're working closely in terms of ensuring that there's a gradual increase in the NHS Wales physician associate workforce. Obviously, there is robust evidence being gathered on the benefit that can be derived from those roles in very specific settings and contexts. 

Trefnydd, I'm getting up again in this Chamber to request an urgent statement on the situation at Withyhedge landfill site in my constituency. As has already been raised this afternoon, there are very serious concerns over the donation that the First Minister received from the Dauson Environmental Group, which operates this landfill site. I share Members' concerns about the donation and agree that it's absolutely crucial that this matter is independently investigated. But more importantly, in the meantime, my constituents have to continue to live with the stink and the stench coming from the Withyhedge landfill site. As I've said before, this is an environmental and, indeed, a public health issue. Therefore, the Welsh Government must make a statement explaining its position in relation to this ongoing issue. Does the Welsh Government believe it's acceptable that the people of Pembrokeshire continue to suffer? My constituents and I are absolutely clear the operator should have its licence immediately revoked and the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales should take this action with immediate effect.

Thank you very much, Paul Davies, for your question. As I responded last week, this is a really important issue in terms of the impact on your community and residents. Also, it is the responsibility of Natural Resources Wales, as you know, to monitor, inspect and review. I will take this back to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs in terms of the impacts, again, that you bring forward to us in the business statement today—the adverse impacts on your community.

May I ask for a statement on public transport in our rural communities, please? Last week, we had an understanding that Transport for Wales intends to cut the Cambrian line services, as we've heard. There will be four services fewer a day, with services extended in the summer for visitors, disenfranchising those people who live in those communities who are served by this line and who are dependent on it for their education, for employment, for shopping and other essentials. This, of course, follows cuts to the bus services—the T2, the T3 and the 32—which means that people are now dependent on cars or lifts from family and friends. In all of these cases, we haven't received any kind of valid or adequate consultation. In terms of the railway, it follows the fact that the Government has withdrawn the Llanbedr road funding, encouraging people to use public transport, and now the people of Llanbedr can't use the railway as often. So, can you ensure that this isn't going to happen, and ask the Minister for transport to give an urgent statement to us on these issues, to demonstrate how this Government is going to provide appropriate public transport for the people of Dwyfor Meirionnydd and rural areas? 

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor—crucial points that I'm sure you will be raising with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport this afternoon as he gives a statement on his transport priorities. But also, to recognise—and I think a question came to the First Minister from your colleague—it's really important that we look at this from a rural perspective as well. This is very much cross-Government in terms of the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. Clearly, there are pressures, but, actually, Transport for Wales challenges over the last year have turned a corner, consistently seeing improvements, but also looking at what can be afforded and where the travel habits of passengers post COVID are clearer. Again, I'm sure those questions will be for the Cabinet Secretary later on this afternoon.

I'd like a statement on what the Welsh Government continues to do to protect children's rights. I'm sure the Trefnydd is aware that, last week, the Royal College of Paediatricians and Child Health published a report with wide publicity calling for the UK Government and Northern Ireland Assembly to follow the lead shown by Wales and Scotland and get rid of the defence of reasonable punishment, making it illegal for parents to use physical punishment against their children. The report also brought forward evidence showing that children are 2.6 times more likely to experience mental health problems if physically punished and are much more likely to behave in a more violent manner later on in life if physically punished. So, would she agree that, in Wales, we've made a very positive move when we did change the law and that similar legislation should be brought in as quickly as possible in England and Northern Ireland so that all children living there, including Welsh children, of course, living in those countries or visiting those countries, have the same protection against physical punishment as children do here in Wales?

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan. Can I just also acknowledge and recognise the powerful role that you've played? You indeed delivered the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020, which came into force in March 2022. Can we recognise again today across this Chamber that this was a historic step in protecting children's rights and welfare, which you took forward in your former ministerial role, but, indeed, campaigned for for many years before that, and, indeed, sought to make that change in England when you were an MP for Cardiff North as well? I remember those times when you were calling for that.

I think what is important about this—and we take enormous pride as the Welsh Government in having removed the defence of reasonable punishment in Wales—is that this law is giving children equal protection from assault as adults have. It shows how we value our children and respect and support their right to be protected from violence. Also, you were giving that further evidence that came forth from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health about protecting children's rights and evidence of the impact in terms of mental health. I'm very pleased to say that the latest survey results, which I'm sure you're aware of, on ending the physical punishment of children, continue to show high levels of awareness of the law. We've worked hard before and after implementation, which you drove forward, to make sure people were fully informed of the change and what it would mean for them. Over two thirds of those with caring responsibilities for children under seven don't see any justification for physically punishing a child and they support the law, a clear indication that we in Wales have turned a corner and are determined to show how we value our children and respect and support their right to be protected from violence. Thank you for your leadership on this matter.

Can I call for two statements today, please, Trefnydd, with, first, an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health on the prevention of future death reports in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? As you may know, the health board recorded 28 of these reports in a 16-month period. This is more than all of the other Welsh health boards combined, and it's a statistic that, of course, is very troubling for patients and their loved ones across the whole of north Wales. Quite rightly, they've been calling for an independent inquiry into why that health board doesn't appear to be learning from its mistakes, and I agree with them. I think we need an opportunity to question the Minister about this, given that, in reports over the weekend, it's suggested that she didn't feel that an independent inquiry into these deaths and why there was such a volume of them in north Wales was appropriate.

Secondly, I'd like to receive an update from the Cabinet Secretary for transport on the issue of unadopted roads. Sandy Cove in Kinmel Bay, which has around 250 properties on unadopted roads, experienced flooding during storm Pierrick just over 10 days ago. Part of the consequence of that flooding was made worse because of the lack of drainage on that estate. It clearly needs an improvement to the drainage infrastructure. Those roads need to be up to an adoptable standard, and the poor condition of them is making life a misery for local residents. So, we do need some updates from the Cabinet Secretary on the work that the Welsh Government is taking forward to address this issue of unadopted roads. I know that there has been an unadopted roads fund that has been established in Wales in recent years, but I don't think it's making sufficient progress on this matter, and we need to move it forward.

Diolch yn fawr, and thank you very much for those two questions. In fact, that point about Betsi Cadwaladr came up last week as well—I'm not sure if you were in the Chamber at that time—but it was an important issue that was raised, particularly to feed back on that point that the health board, Betsi Cadwaladr, has established an investigations and learning programme, and the medical director is the nominated senior responsible officer. That's got direct oversight from the chief executive and the wider executive team. It's important that that's also linked closely to the quality, safety and experience committee so that it can escalate issues and make sure the process is robust in place. Clearly, the Cabinet Secretary is keeping a close watch on what is happening in terms of these issues and you will have the opportunity to question her when she comes forward for her oral questions shortly.

You also raise an important point about the impact of flooding and, of course, this is particularly relating to unadopted roads. I think it's important that this is very much a cross-Government issue as well in terms of the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, who will be giving his statement this afternoon on transport priorities, in terms of an opportunity there for you to raise these issues. But it's also, in terms of the infrastructure, an issue for the Minister for climate change and rural affairs in terms of the impact of the storm and flooding. So, again, thank you for raising that this afternoon.

Good afternoon, Minister. I would like to request a statement, if I may, from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice on the state of disability employment support here in Wales, following the shameful announcement by the UK Government on the scrapping of the Work and Health Programme. This decision, coupled with plans to cut disability benefits for 420,000 people, raises grave concern over the job prospects for disabled individuals here in Wales. Department for Work and Pensions research this year showed that the Work and Health Programme helped participants find paid work 27 per cent more often, with over 80 per cent satisfied with the personalised support. Many charities and disabled people now fear that, without this tailored employment support, employers may revert to discriminatory hiring practices against disabled job applicants. So, I would like the Minister, please, to raise this issue with her equivalent in the UK Parliament to express our severe concern and to ask for that decision to be reversed. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I'm particularly glad that you've raised this issue because, amongst the announcements that came at the end of last week and over the weekend, which were announcements made by the Prime Minister—announcements that were about the fact that he wants to cut benefits for 420,000 sick and disabled people; that was the headline—underneath the headline, there was this cut of £100 million to the Work and Health Programme, which is operating in England and Wales, and we understand that it's going to end in the autumn, providers have been told. It has been an important programme. It was launched back in November 2017 and it had some EU funding. It was primarily a voluntary scheme, aimed at helping disabled people into work. This, as I said, was in the context of a much wider policy coming from the Prime Minister, from Rishi Sunak, who wants to cut benefits, and, as you say, charities have described this as a full-time assault on disabled people.

There will be a consultation, I understand, as well, on personal independence payments, which help disabled people cover extra costs of living with an impairment or ill health. So, just to reassure Jane Dodds and the Senedd, this is something that the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice will be raising with the UK Government. We actually do have bilateral arrangements there, as part of the inter-ministerial Government procedures, to meet directly with the UK Government Ministers on social security, and we will be reminding them that these reforms don't align with our vision for a compassionate, equitable and fair benefits system. We very clearly set that out in our Welsh Government Welsh benefits charter, and we are very concerned that these changes have the potential to widen inequalities in society and to push more people into poverty.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Business Secretary, I'm asking again, for the second week running, for an urgent statement from the Welsh Government on the Cass review and, of course, what it means for future Welsh gender services in Wales.

May I say that I was glad to see Welsh Labour finally ban puberty blockers? But, this was through no policy change of your own but as a result of England doing so and therefore resulting, of course, in there being no pathway for under-18s to received prescribed puberty blockers. This Senedd needs clarity, Cabinet Secretary. It would be preferable in an oral statement—either that or a written statement, but we need clarity. People are calling for it from all corners of Wales now. The Government needs to be clear on this. England, last week, had a statement and questions on the important Cass review report, and even Scotland, this week, will have a statement and questions on the report. Yet, here in Wales, we are still waiting for a statement, still waiting for this Welsh Government to admit that they've got it wrong and still waiting for clarity over what this means for gender services for people, going forward. It is wrong that a statement hasn't yet been forthcoming. We need answers. Wales needs answers and we need a statement, please, Cabinet Secretary, and we need it urgently.

Thank you for the question, which I did respond to last week, and I will repeat what I said last week in response to your question, Laura Anne Jones. The Cass review, we know and we understand, aims to ensure that children and young people who are questioning their gender identity or are experiencing gender dysphoria and require support from the NHS receive a high standard of care that meets their needs and is safe, holistic and effective. We're committed to improving the gender identity development pathway and the support available for young people in Wales in line with the commitments in our LGBTQ+ action plan. We will consider the report findings. We will continue to be driven by evidence that best supports the needs of the young people of Wales who are questioning their gender. We commission gender identity services for young people from NHS England, and NHS Wales is represented on the gender dysphoria services transformation programme board in England. And the work of that programme has already been shaped by the findings in the interim Cass report. But I do want to also add the point this afternoon that the transformation programme has made good progress following the interim Cass review, and this includes two new children and young people gender services, which opened this month. Up to eight regional centres will be commissioned and the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee will be working with NHS England to consider a regional centre in Wales. Progress also includes the establishment of the national Children and Young People's Gender Dysphoria Research Oversight Board, chaired by Professor Sir Simon Wessely. And the joint commissioning committee will now work with the transformation programme as they develop an implementation plan following consideration of the final Cass report. But I think, also, we must recognise that our young people in Wales must and do have the opportunity to express their views and to influence the way forward in Wales.

I thank the Trefnydd.

The next item will be the motions to elect Members to committees. In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, unless there are any objections, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and for voting. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, I will call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Heledd Fychan. 

I formally move.

The motions are formally moved. The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, the motions are agreed, and the Members have been elected to the various committees.

Item 3 is next, the questions to the Counsel General, and the first question is from Gareth Davies. 

Can Gareth Davies's microphone be unmuted, please?

Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you for your question. The youth justice blueprint sets out our vision for youth justice in Wales. This includes reducing the number of children in the youth justice system through effective diversion activity, preventing reoffending and supporting children to live rewarding, crime-free lives.

Thank you very much, Counsel General. I would like to congratulate you on your reappointment to your position last week, as I believe that this is your first questions session since your reappointment. So, congratulations on our behalf. I would appreciate it if you could make an assessment regarding the success of the Youth Justice Blueprint for Wales, and whether the blueprint adequately addresses the frequency rate of offences committed per reoffender.

The blueprint addresses youth recidivism, which has been coming down across England and Wales for the past decade, but the frequency rate of offences is still very high. The most recent data for south Wales demonstrate an increase in the number of offences committed by each offender. Youth criminality is a concern in Wales, given its disproportionate nature. The 18-25 age group in Wales accounts for approximately 12 per cent of the total population, but we know that 18 to 25-year-olds are committing 33 per cent of all recorded crime in south Wales, as one example.

Although some statistics are looking good, other things are moving in the wrong direction. Although good work is being undertaken to prevent young people from engaging in criminality to begin with, the frequency rate would imply that not enough is being done to address young people already in that cycle of crime. So, given that the Counsel General is responsible for youth justice and probation policy development, and given that the Welsh Government wishes to see youth crime and justice devolved, how is the Welsh Government looking to tackle the issue of offence frequency among youth reoffenders in Wales?  

Could I thank you for what I thought was an incisive question, and a very pertinent question, in terms of the work that's going on at the moment, with regard to looking at the issues of youth justice and probation? As you know, at the moment, responsibility for criminal justice, including youth justice, is a reserved matter, but many aspects of it, quite rightly, are devolved Welsh services, and they are integral to the youth justice system. In fact, they are the major part, I think, of the youth justice system: issues around housing, education, healthcare and so on.

I think that it is also important to recognise, of course, that the youth justice blueprint, which we operate, is something that has been agreed jointly, in co-operation between the Welsh Government, the UK Government, policing in Wales and, indeed, the Youth Justice Board. One of the areas that we are concerned with, obviously, is the availability of adequate and full disaggregation of data, so you can fully understand what is happening in various parts of Wales. We do have a number of interventions as well. So, the children and communities grant includes the promoting positive engagement fund.

What has happened with youth justice over the decade, and I understand the point you're making in terms of indications that there is a rise in reoffending and in certain areas in terms of crime, is, nevertheless that—. The objective being to keep young people out of the criminal justice system, to look for diversionary measures as soon as possible, is something that, looking over the decade, has been extremely successful. So, for example, whereas there has been some increases in reoffences in some areas, I think it's worth noting that offending by children has significantly reduced over the past 10 years. The youth justice data analysts provided the data—. Data is not always available, but the data we do have certainly shows us that, according to the Youth Justice Board, published statistics in 2021 showed that there were 613 young people in Wales who'd received a caution or conviction—now, that is 76 per cent fewer than in 2013-14. So, the progress that's been made, and the success in the youth justice area, is, I think, important, but I don't think there is any grounds for complacency.

I think the approach that we've adopted is the correct approach, recognising the impact of early years experiences on children, but also looking at the most important way of actually keeping young people out of the future criminal justice system, which is by that early intervention. So, the figures we have are much lower than they've been in the past. The increase in first-time entrance into the justice system is lower than it has been in the past, but there is considerable attention being given to how we actually not only maintain that, but how do we actually improve it.

I recently attended the counterparts in terms of youth justice in Scotland, and was very impressed with the work that is going on in terms of very early intervention in terms of identification of people who are on that criminal pathway. And by criminality, it's not just young people who might commit an offence, it is also the exploitation of young people that brings them into the criminal system as well. So, the prevention framework, I think, is something that brings all the evidence and work together into one place. That's the direction we want to go in. I think it is also the case—. That is why it is so important, I think, that youth justice is something that is devolved, because we need to actually have that consistent setting of youth justice policy and its engagement with 90 per cent of its functions, which are already devolved functions.

Counsel General, I believe it's very important, when we look at youth justice, that we take a child-centred approach, and see a child as a child first and an offender second, and I'm very pleased to say that this is the approach of the Newport youth justice service's team. They've actually been lauded by the University of Warwick for taking a unique and groundbreaking approach in relation to their Levelling the Playing Field project, which uses the power of sport for these purposes. So, I wonder, Counsel General, would you congratulate the Newport youth justice service's team for this approach and this work, and might you be willing to meet with them?

Firstly, I would be happy to meet and, indeed, I've met with a number of the youth service teams around Wales and, indeed, I met with some of their equivalents in Scotland. And what I can say is that the work that they are doing is impressive and often very, very difficult, and requires an enormous amount of commitment. What is, I think, clear is that there are two aspects. Of course, up to 18, young people then become adults, but, of course, all the evidence is that the 18 to 25 element is just as important, as people are still forming, moving into adulthood, and understanding that interconnectivity between those two is absolutely vital. But I do commend—. I would be happy to meet with any youth justice service to actually talk about this. And, in fact, there's been an enormous amount of work going work, and engagement, really looking towards the preparation for the devolution of youth justice in the future.

Obviously, this sits absolutely on the jagged edge of criminal justice, with criminal justice not being devolved, but I'm very glad to hear that you're working so closely, and you continue to do so, on this really important issue. I'd like to applaud this blueprint for reducing massively the numbers of children who are actually sent into offender institutions, because this normally actually exacerbates the problem, partly because of their young age and their impressionability, and there’s a recruitment into much deeper levels of criminality.

It’s 12 months since the Equality and Social Justice Committee published our report, '60 per cent—Giving them a voice' on speech, language and communications difficulties experienced by the youth justice system, and after the youth justice summit convened on 24 January by the former Minister for Social Justice, where Neath Port Talbot was lauded for the excellence of its service, it isn’t 60 per cent, it’s more like 80 per cent, if Neath Port Talbot is to be believed, because they are the blueprint for the services we want across Wales. What our report was asking for was an increase in the number of speech, language and communications therapists in our youth justice services because 80 per cent, four in five, of these young people simply don’t understand what the court is telling them and probably never understood what their teacher was telling them, either. So, it has to be a really important service to ensure that young people are listened to and that we are putting in place the right service for that individual.

I think you make a very important point. I sat in the youth court in Cardiff recently and listened to a number of the cases there, and what was very clear to me was that, I think with every individual that appeared there, you could look at a background of either poverty or disadvantage. But you also saw that, in terms of the issues around the understanding, the engagement, the communication, quite often there were a lot of people who'd been failed by the education system, basically, who had dropped out of the education system. Hence the sort of approach we have of intervention and support is exactly the right direction to go. It's got to be treating young people as young people, and also putting them first in their interest, and looking at how they can be kept out of the criminal justice system by the right sort of interventions, and recognition of that. That's also what I saw when I was in Scotland, and I'm sure exactly the same thing is happening in parts of England as well. There has been a very massive shift, I think, in our thinking about young people, certainly from when I was a teenager, to how the system is now operating, and in particularly to how it has changed, certainly in Wales, over the past decade or so with the move in that particular direction.

The Criminal Justice Bill, introducing legislation to replace the Vagrancy Act, is being considered in line with established constitutional procedures. Welsh Government laid a legislative consent memorandum covering the Bill on 29 January. We expect a date for Report Stage to be announced soon.

Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. I think there is broad agreement that the Georgian legislation that is enforced in Wales is no longer fit for purpose. It was reported two weeks ago that 2,500 arrests have been made in England and Wales since 2019, and of course some of these may be legitimate anti-social behaviour issues, but often homeless people have been targeted and victimised under this Act, which is completely unacceptable.

The UK Government announced that it wished to repeal the Vagrancy Act once replacement legislation was prepared, but there was a disagreement over the content of the replacement Bill. There has been a lot of misinformation and scaremongering over the contents of this Bill, which has led to it being omitted from the King’s Speech, thus keeping the Vagrancy Act on the statute book for longer.

It is understandable that replacement legislation must take into account the potential for problematic anti-social behaviour that disrupts the lives of businesses and the public, and I think that can be addressed in a compassionate way. With the dust settling on the replacement Bill and a new Home Secretary in place, has the Counsel General had discussions with the UK Government regarding their intentions to replace the Vagrancy Act and what their timescale is for doing this?

Thank you for the question and thank you for raising this particular issue. Obviously, the discussions that would take place in terms of the policy and issues around the legislative consent issues would, obviously, primarily engage a Cabinet Secretary in respect of this. But, obviously, there are issues that have been raised that are in the Criminal Justice Bill that do cause deep concern. On the one hand, obviously, the issue of abolishing the Vagrancy Act 1824, this 200-year-old appalling piece of legislation, is absolutely right. But I have to say that we think that the way in which UK Government has approached it is actually wholly wrong.

As you know, we had a legislative consent memorandum on 29 January, and that underlined, really, the deep concerns that we have with the proposals in the Bill, and things like so-called nuisance begging, nuisance rough-sleeping and so on, which would replace the Vagrancy Act. And I have to say that there's a real concern about what seems to be a suggestion of criminalising homeless people. I was very interested really that the magazine, The Big Issue, that really addresses a lot of the homeless issues—. I was very concerned reading one of the reports from a whistleblower in UK Government, one of the civil servants, who said this:

'I have never been so ashamed to call myself a civil servant. The code requires us to work on whatever the government wants us to, but after years of crackpot Tory ideas, I can’t take it anymore. Criminalising homelessness has been the straw that has broken the camel’s back.' 

And I very much agreed with the comments made by Bob Blackman, again, a Conservative MP, who said that the proposals were outrageous and worse than vagrancy. Can I say that criminalising homeless people is not a solution to homelessness? The idea that someone who's homeless could be fined up to £2,500 is absolutely ludicrous in terms of the belief that such a fine could ever be paid. And the idea of imprisonment is, again, a totally contradictory objective.

The approach that we've taken in Wales is to take a person-centred approach to assist people off the streets. I think recent changes to our legislation highlight that all the rough-sleepers are a priority for housing and homelessness assistance. Again, as I've just reiterated in my last point, criminalising homeless people is not a solution to this. I do think UK Government is going in exactly the wrong direction on this, and I'm hoping that there will be room for substantial changes, and certainly these parts, to improve it. There'd be nothing worse than replacing the Vagrancy Act with something that's even worse that the Vagrancy Act.

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and, first of all, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch. Can I be heard? Yes. In which case, public inquiries are major investigations convened by a Government Minister. The only justification required for a public inquiry is the existence of public concern about a particular event or set of events. Although initiated and funded by Government, public inquiries are run independently. Your responsibilities as Counsel General include provision of legal advice to the Welsh Government. On 21 March, the Institute for Fiscal Studies released their 'Major challenges for education in Wales' report, which found that the latest round of Programme for International Student Assessment scores brought those in Wales to their lowest-ever level, significantly below the average across Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries and significantly below those seen across the rest of the UK, that low educational outcomes are not likely to be a reflection of higher poverty in Wales, a different ethnic mix of pupils, statistical biases or differences in resources, and that they're more likely to reflect differences in policy and approach.

They recommended a pause and, in some cases, rethink of past and ongoing reforms in areas including placing greater emphasis on specific knowledge in the new Curriculum for Wales, and delaying reforms to GCSEs to give proper time to consider their effects on long-term outcomes, teacher workload and inequalities. Tomorrow, a call will therefore be made— 

Mark, you need to ask your question now, please. 

—will therefore be made for the Welsh Government to commission an independent review into its current educational reforms. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give to the Welsh Government regarding this?

Can I just say, in response to that question, my advice would be, actually, to you, that you should direct this question to the Cabinet Secretary for education?

Well, thank you, but I trust, given your role as Counsel General providing advice to Welsh Government, relevant Ministers would come to you for advice accordingly. And your priority, as I said, on such important matters, should be public concern and not otherwise.

So, let me try another. North Wales's Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is facing calls to be the subject of a public inquiry after 28 prevention of future deaths reports were recorded over a 16-month period, more than the combined number handed to the other six Welsh health boards. A special ITV Wales report reveals the scale of coroners' concerns about the care people receive from this health board before their deaths, with a bereaved husband warning the recorded number of prevention of future deaths reports could be the tip of the iceberg. As you're aware, a prevention of future deaths report can be issued by a coroner if they have concerns about the circumstances in which someone died, and if it appears there is a risk of deaths occurring. A public inquiry would build confidence back into the system and help make improvements to long-standing issues. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give, as the Counsel General, to the Welsh Government regarding this?

Of course, the coroner's service is a reserved service; it's something I believe should be devolved. But all the other areas that you have actually raised should be directed to the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Well, again, I'm very concerned, as Counsel General, you won't share the advice that you will inevitably have given or be asked to give to Welsh Government Ministers on these matters.

So, I'll have one final go. At the last meeting of the cross-party autism group, which I chair, several attendees shared their experiences of the health and social care system. Participants shared feelings of being targeted by staff in services, with one participant stating that this has affected their ability to feel safe in Wales. Some attendees felt that they had been intentionally parent-blamed and noted this seemed to be aimed at mothers in particular. Some also described how damaging this has been and how it has put the custody of their children at risk. One described their experience with services as one of hostility and prejudices. Participants raised a lack of training and understanding from staff in autism services, and resistance to adopting an autism diagnosis, and many agree there's a lack of accountability regarding the issues raised.

A local authority that several participants identified as of issue was Flintshire County Council, stating that they would like to see an independent public inquiry into the standards of practice in Flintshire. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give to the Welsh Government Ministers, as Counsel General, to the Welsh Government regarding this, which presumably you would be asked to provide?

I'll just give you the same advice I've given before, that the issues you raise are not unimportant issues, but they should be raised with the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

I hope, Counsel General, I'm on firmer ground, given that your list of ministerial responsibilities still includes elections policy and the Senedd reform Bill, to say that democratic reform—democratic health, rather—in its broadest sense, is part of your area of responsibility. I was wondering if you see a connection between that and the mental health and well-being of democracies' elected representatives. And I'm particularly prompted to ask you that following a recent article by Isabel Hardman, the journalist at The Spectator, who has talked about the crisis of mental health among MPs in Westminster. Now, there may be particular reasons for that crisis there now, but I think it's important to recognise it's a universal problem. Indeed, when the Apolitical Foundation, which is a global think tank, produced its report on mental health and well-being recently, I think around 10 per cent of those responding were actually Members of this institution. So, do you see the connection between democratic health and the mental health and well-being of politicians in terms of attracting and keeping people in politics, so it can be properly representative? And also healthy people make better decisions and so should we be concerned about this growing crisis in terms of mental health and elected representatives?

Well, thank you for the question. It raises really quite a number of issues, and those are the stress and pressures that there are on people who decide to go into public service—that's effectively what politicians are. We're living in an environment where it is a very, very difficult environment, particularly with regard to social media, having to deal with the consequences of social media, information, misinformation, and all the particular challenges. I suspect the actual stress and pressures and the impact on physical and mental health are probably greater now in public service and in politics than they actually ever have been. So, the point, I think, you're raising, is absolutely right. We want good governance; we want people to come forward into public service; we don't want people to be dissuaded from coming into public service because of the fear of either the way in which social media might be used to attack them, or indeed to attack members of their family, and also the impact that it might have on people's health. I think we've already seen, haven't we, a number of politicians from different political parties who have already said that they are not going to continue in public service for those very reasons, and sometimes it's the reason because of the impact directly on them, but quite often it's the impact on the people who are around them and on their families, who quite often, through social media, are seen as fair game.

I think there is an issue in terms of well-being. I think it is up to Parliaments, and indeed here to the Senedd, to actually be aware of that. I know this is something that obviously is being considered, and, as someone on the Commission, that's obviously something that is being raised. But I do think it is part and parcel of the picture of something I've talked about, which is democratic health, and I suppose you're right: it's not just about getting people to participate within the system; it's also about enabling people who want to participate within it or want to contribute in some way or other. So, there is a joinder to that. I hope that begins to contribute something towards what is an important issue that you have raised.

Given the—[Inaudible.]—nature of this increasingly important issue, as you say, at a time of rising abuse and threats in politics, which creates an even more challenging environment, I was wondering if you would possibly raise it at the next meeting of the Interministerial Group for Elections and Registration. I notice that, actually, democratic health is on the agenda of the next meeting, as was resilience. I was heartened at that until I read it was the resilience of print suppliers of election materials, but maybe you could raise resilience in a different sense, which is of people who are at the heart of democracy after all, and maybe suggest some ideas. I think, here, we've got a good story in the sense that our HR department—one of the issues raised by Isabel Hardman—is actually as big as Westminster's, which is a much bigger institution. But some of the other ideas that have been suggested in terms of mandatory training, not just induction training, but every year, for every politician, could that be part of the agenda of our new national school of government, not just training civil servants, Counsel General, but also current and future elected leaders as well? Alongside a code of conduct, why don't we have a job description, so that we don't just have 'don'ts', we also have some positive 'dos', and we don't just have committees of standards of conduct, but committees of positive workplace cultures as well in our parliamentary institutions? 

I think those are all valid points, and I'm sure you'll be making those points to the Commission during the coming year. I think what you're really reflecting upon is that the state of our democratic health is multifactorial, it has so many aspects to it, from civic society to also those who are in politics, who are in public service, and their well-being, because that well-being also relates to their capacity to actually deliver that public service as well as possible. I think it is one of the factors why we need to see this Senedd reformed and increased in size, because of those very pressures and demands that are there, to ensure people can do their job properly and also be satisfied that they have the resource and the time available to be able to do the best job possible, which is what most people want to do. As I say, I look forward to you contributing what I think are important parts of debate that have often not been raised, but I think what is important is that these are things that are very much within the ownership of the Senedd. I think one area that goes on top of that is, probably, often, the lack of understanding in civic society of those particular roles, that there's an educational role and an engagement role as well that is equally important. 

Question 3 [OQ60960] has been withdrawn. So, we'll move on to question 4, James Evans. 

Thank you for the question. Legislation that can be made in Wales should be made in Wales. Legislation made by the UK Parliament or the UK Government must respect devolution.

Thank you very much for your answer, Counsel General. When I sat on the legislation and constitution and justice committee—I forget the name; I’ve been off it for a bit long now—we were getting concerned about, actually, how much the Welsh Government was using the UK Government to legislate in devolved areas. It’s a very serious concern because I want to see Welsh law made by Welsh policy makers here in the Senedd, and not made by people up the M4 who don’t really understand the needs of Wales. It doesn’t give us here the opportunity to scrutinise that law and make sure it’s futureproofed for us here.

One concern that we did have is about the capacity within the Welsh Government. So, can you confirm today, Counsel General, whether the Welsh Government does have the appropriate legislative and legal capacity within the Welsh Government so that we can make sure that law is made in Wales, for Wales?

Well, thank you for the question, and it’s obviously one I’ve been presented with many times by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. So, part of my answer remains the same, and that is this: the principles that I outlined in the beginning, in my first response to your question, remain. But, of course, there are many factors that begin to take us away from that.

The first of them is, of course, that we don’t have any control over the UK Government’s legislative programme. The Government introduces many Bills; at one stage, I think we had 32 UK Government Bills that were in process. Now, where those Bills overlap into devolved areas, we have no option but to engage in the legislative consent process; that’s what our Standing Orders require us to do. So, those are not choices that we’ve made for the UK Government to legislate on our behalf. Where we engage with those legislative consent processes, what we do presses very, very strongly the Sewel convention. I can tell you that engagement on the Sewel convention has been extremely difficult, because there have been, in the last couple of years, increasing numbers of breaches, so that where what should be the case is that, on an area that would affect devolved responsibilities, consent should be required, the UK Government regularly now presses ahead and says, 'No, we will consult.' Consulting has absolutely no judicial or legal status whatsoever, and in those circumstances it is a breach.

When we talk about the Victims and Prisoners Bill as one example—and we have a legislative consent memorandum coming on 30 April—that is a very classic example where engagement has taken place, it has been positive on areas, for example, with public advocates and their work in respect of devolved areas, and we were anticipating amendments that would require consent. Suddenly, there’s been a turnabout now to impose or to push through Westminster the issue of consultation only. Now, that is a breach of Sewel. There is no logic to it, and it’s difficult to understand where that sudden intervention has come from that has suddenly changed the tone and nature of those particular negotiations. But that is becoming a very common trend.

Can I say that there are other areas, though, of course, where UK Government legislation is raising issues that we would not have the capacity to legislate on without disrupting our own legislative programme and the planning of that? And, of course, you realise the planning is not just resource in terms of the drafting and preparation of legislation; it’s also managing the flow of legislation and the time the committees have to actually deal with it. I’ll give you one example, which is the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. I think that’s a good example of an opportunity where we’ve engaged with the UK Government, where, in fact, there’s been four-nation engagement on it, and I think there are a number of other examples where that's happened as well.

So, it is very rare that we would go to UK Government to legislate on our behalf. Where it has happened, it has normally been in circumstances where UK Government is legislating in an area, and we've identified that it's not part of our legislative programme at the moment, but there would be benefits to the people of Wales were something to be extended to Wales. But that actually is very rare. The majority of issues that go beyond our own legislative programme, where we are specifically legislating, normally arises out of the engagement with UK Government over its own legislative programme. I have to say that engagement is very, very difficult; in some areas it has improved, but there is still a fundamental weakness in the application of the Sewel convention.

Thank you for that question. I am working with Cabinet colleagues on the impacts of the Bill on their portfolios. We are engaging with the UK Government on several elements of the Bill. The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice will lead a legislative consent motion—the one I've just referred to, I'm afraid—in the debate on the Bill on 30 April.

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his response. Counsel General, I've raised a number of times the concerns I have for this Bill, in that it does not go anywhere near far enough to meet the asks of the Hillsborough Law Now campaign. This Bill is seriously lacking in key areas, such as a duty of candour. Victims who cannot be assured of getting the full truth at the first time of asking are unlikely to attain the justice they deserve. What are the Welsh Government's options to try and encourage the UK Government for a rethink of this Bill?

Can I firstly thank you for continuing to raise this issue and the issue of the Hillsborough law? As you know, I met with some of the Hillsborough campaigners some while back, and have also been engaged with them. It is certainly the case that the—. Well, to start with, the Bill has certain other elements to it that are things that I think we as a Government would support, in respect of, for example, contaminated blood and contaminated blood compensation, and the issue that has been there for quite some time. So, those are things that I think are positive within the Bill.

But the point you specifically raise is: does this Bill actually address the issues that were raised by the Hillsborough campaigners? The fact of the matter is that it doesn't. What it does do is have a very weak-hearted, I think, attempt at creating public advocates, the purpose of which is extremely unclear at the moment. And this of course is the area where I met with the UK Government Minister last week—myself and another Cabinet Secretary met—really just to push the point that they respect the public advocates in guidance, that where that related specifically to the carrying out of devolved functions, there should be a requirement to consent. That's what Sewel says, and that is what we expected to be the case. The Bill is obviously at Report Stage in the House of Lords at the moment, so it was very, very disappointing that, at very short notice, we were told that the UK Government was going to lay an amendment that only required it to consult. And it's for that reason that this matter will be coming on 30 April as a matter of legislative consent.

The one area, of course, that you've raised consistently is the issue of a public duty of candour, and it seems to me that that is absolutely fundamental. It is not in the Bill. A duty of candour is basically an obligation on public servants to tell the truth. It isn't a legal obligation on them to do so and to come forward proactively with that. And that is one of the fundamental demands in respect of a so-called Hillsborough law. What I am very pleased to say is that, of course, Sir Keir Starmer has already indicated that an incoming Labour Government will introduce a full Hillsborough law, it will introduce public advocates. I am certain that it will also respect the devolution settlement, but it also will establish that duty of candour, which I think is fundamental.

There is of course a very much easier way to press on, and that would be, basically, to open the doors of legal aid to those who become victims. That would have been the most simple and straightforward way of actually doing this, and it seems to me that it's a step too far. But the lack of a duty of candour is something that applies in any event, even with the opening doors of legal aid, were that to happen. So, it doesn't go anywhere near what I think we were expecting and, I'm afraid, it is a very half-hearted attempt at responding to those demands that were made.

Thank you very much for the question. The immunity of the monarch from prosecution is a long-established principle. In accordance with that principle and convention, during the consent process on the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, as it was at the time, assurance was provided that the convention would be taken into account when making regulations once the Bill was enacted.

I find it very troubling that the King, it seems, can ignore our laws in Wales. Are we saying that if a piece of land belongs to the sovereign it doesn't need to be managed sustainably? Or are we conceding that, by virtue of the monarch's nature, he can only own land sustainably? Or is it neither, and simply the fact that our laws and customs come with a duty of homage? In September 1267, the Treaty of Montgomery between Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and King Henry III of England provided that the prince and his successors would be bound to give fealty, homage and service to the English King and his heirs. Are the terms of that treaty still haunting us today? Are our Senedd's powers forever subject to our being subjects of a king?

Well, listen, thank you for that response. I have to say that the Treaty of Montgomery is not something I've read recently, although I am aware of it. Certainly, this issue is a constitutional issue. There are strong and varying views on this. Just as we seek to comply ourselves with conventions and seek compliance, for example, with the Sewel convention, so we have also complied with the other conventions that exist in respect of legislation, but there is clearly a debate that is taking place on this particular issue.

There is a constitutional anachronism that is there. But can I just say this in respect of the Bill? In response to the palace's request, the Welsh Government did give a written assurance on the point of this convention to the King's advisers, and we said this:

'we confirm that when making regulations under Part III of the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023 the Welsh ministers will keep in mind the exclusion by convention of the Crown in respect of criminal enforcement and powers of entry.' 

The assurance was to take account of the convention when making regulations. It did not commit the Welsh Ministers to any specific course of action when making regulations and, of course, any regulations that are brought forward under that will come forward to this Senedd, and if there are concerns at that stage, those are matters for this Parliament.

Thank you for the question. Eleven major house builders have signed the Welsh Government’s developers contract. The contracts commit these developers to undertake works to rectify fire safety issues in buildings that they've developed over the past 30 years. I’m aware that the Cabinet Secretary is committed to ensuring that developers fulfil their contractual obligations.

Thank you for that answer. I'm going on a slightly different aspect, and you might not be surprised to hear that this question is framed within the lens of Ffos-y-fran opencast mine in Merthyr, in my region. It's outrageous that the mine owner is attempting to walk away from their legally binding obligations to restore the land and make it a haven for flora and fauna once again. After taking tens of millions of pounds-worth of coal from the site, an ecological water-filled disaster is developing, which is now causing real concern for long-suffering local residents.

Now, you may not be able to talk about the detail of this case, for legal reasons, but I want you to talk about the general principle of a company cutting and running after making their money. What message does this send out to other developers if there is no legal recourse taken against irresponsible developers? Is there now a perception that authorities and watchdogs in Wales are toothless? This is important, particularly in my region, since there are plans for another coal tip safety scheme on the site of the former Bedwas colliery. An escrow account is part of the plans to ensure that remediation work takes place once the scheme has run its course—a well-walked path. What legal advice are you giving to counter the perception that Wales is a soft touch for developers?

I don't give legal advice specifically on that last point. It is obviously important that all contractual arrangements that are entered into by public bodies are resilient. I know, for example, that the contract in respect of reclamation with Tower colliery, where there was an escrow account as well, is one that does appear to have worked and been fulfilled. In terms of the broader direction of the question that you're raising with me, I think that is one that should be raised again with the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Question 8 [OQ60961] has been withdrawn. So, finally, question 9, James Evans.

Thank you for the question. The Bill has been through all the usual processes that all Government legislation introduced into the Senedd goes through. The Member in charge has set out the Government’s position in relation to the Bill in her oral statement and during her evidence to the Reform Bill Committee.

Counsel General, the advice that's been provided to the Welsh Government is that this does sit within the legal competence of the Senedd. Unfortunately, the Llywydd doesn't agree with that position. Evidence to the reform committee doesn't agree that it sits within the legal competence of the Senedd. The UK Government doesn't agree that this legislation sits within the legal competence of this Senedd and nor do independent legal advisers in this area of law around the country agree that this sits within the legal competence of the Senedd. So, I'd be very interested to know how you've come to that position and the Welsh Government lawyers have come to that position to say that it is within competence, when the vast majority of legal professionals who study in this area of law disagree with the Welsh Government's position. I want to separate apart whether I agree with the policy or not. But I think we need to make sure that, when we are putting law forward in Wales, it actually does sit within competence, and the Welsh Government doesn't waste money fighting this in the Supreme Court when it knows that it shouldn't have put the Bill forward in the first place, if it doesn't sit within the legal competence of this Senedd.

The issue of competence is obviously a fundamental part of our legislative process. It is certainly the case that this is one where there are different legal opinions in terms of competence. Competence is often an extremely complex and grey area. This legislation, of course, is being taken through by the Trefnydd. So, it's not a Bill that's within my portfolio of responsibilities. The reason I'd be cautious on this at the moment is for this reason: those issues have been recognised, the matter has been taken back to the Senedd and is currently being considered by an appropriate committee. That committee, I know, is considering the issue of competence and has taken evidence on that. They will come to an opinion and they will report back to this Senedd at that particular stage. At that stage, the Senedd will take a decision on whether it is appropriate matter to proceed. In terms of my role as Counsel General, as law officer, I act independently of Government, but only once legislation has been passed and has been concluded. It's the same position with regard to the Attorney-General. I have the authority, as does the Attorney-General, to refer a matter to the Supreme Court if there is a constitutional issue with it. Of course, competence can be one of those. So, it's not really appropriate for me to make any further comment on this other than what I've said—other than that, of course, depending upon how the legislation proceeds, at a certain stage I will be required to exercise my role as law officer.

I thank the Counsel General.

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on creating a smoke-free generation and tackling youth vaping. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for this opportunity to update Members about the important work we're carrying out to create a smoke-free Wales and to tackle youth vaping. Despite all our success in reducing smoking rates, it remains the leading cause of avoidable harm and death here in Wales. Smoking harms nearly every organ of the body and, uniquely, it harms not just the smoker but the people around them. We all know the impacts that smoking has on individuals, on society and on our health service. It is not overdramatisation to say that these are devastating.

For individuals, tobacco significantly increases the risk of cancer, respiratory diseases, and dementia. For our society, smoking drives health inequalities and costs the economy billions each year. The former Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being launched our smoke-free Wales strategy two years ago and with it our ambitious target to reduce smoking prevalence to 5 per cent by 2030. We are working towards that ambition, supporting people to stop smoking at all stages in their lives.

The First Minister has put a renewed focus on the first 1,000 days of a child’s life to ensure every child gets the best start in life. Smoking is a significant risk factor for poor pregnancy-associated health outcomes. We have been working to increase support to smokers to quit for good during pregnancy, and I have set clear objectives for health boards to provide carbon monoxide monitoring during antenatal appointments to help women achieve that goal. Our free national smoking cessation service, Help Me Quit, continues to support thousands of people every year, and we are rolling out our in-hospital smoking cessation programme so that NHS staff can support our in-patients to quit.

Illegal tobacco and vaping products pose an increasing and complex challenge, so we are working closely with trading standards to support the enforcement and seizure of illegal and potentially dangerous products. We have also supported secondary schools across Wales by providing evidence-based information for teachers and school staff about how to tackle vaping and resources to help learners understand the impact of vapes on their health and well-being.

In addition to the work in Wales, we are also working closely with partners across the UK on actions to tackle youth vaping and to create a smoke-free generation. The UK Government’s Tobacco and Vapes Bill was introduced in the UK Parliament on 20 March and had its second reading last week. The legislation has the potential to be one of the most significant public health interventions in a generation and the biggest step forward in the battle against tobacco since we banned smoking in enclosed public spaces in 2007.

With our consent and support, along with that of colleagues in Scotland and Northern Ireland, the main measures in the Bill—making it illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone who turns 15 in 2024 or younger and reducing the appeal and availability of vaping products—will apply throughout the UK. These provisions, of course, have an impact on devolved areas of competence. I will therefore be laying a legislative consent motion in early May. I am committed to ensuring that Members are able to fully consider the detail of the Bill and its impact here in Wales. I look forward to hearing Members' views in due course. 

When asked, most smokers will tell you that they wish that they had never started smoking, and many say that they find it really hard to quit. A large number will have started smoking when they were young—more than four in five people before the age of 20. And that’s why this Bill has the power to make a real difference, putting cigarettes and tobacco products out of the reach of young people. Anyone born after 1 January 2009 will never be able to be legally sold a cigarette or any other form of tobacco, and this will lead, over time, to a smoke-free generation.

I have heard many arguments recently that smoking should be a choice. Whilst the Bill will not criminalise anyone for smoking, I firmly agree with the chief medical officer and the many other health leaders that smoking is an addiction. It traps smokers into a habit that ultimately kills up to two thirds of its long-term users. Once hooked, smoking is no longer a choice, it's a dependency. This Bill is a unique opportunity to take decisive action to free and safeguard a generation of young people and children in Wales and the UK from addiction. It also gives us more powers to tackle youth vaping. Our message on vaping has been and remains very clear: if you don't smoke, don't vape.

These products should never be in the hands of our children and young people. This is why the increase in vaping among young people is extremely worrying, given the unknown long-term health impacts, the highly addictive nature of nicotine, and the potentially harmful ingredients in some illegal vapes. The way that vaping products are regularly promoted, and the endless flavours and bright packaging, appeals to children, like the most tempting sweet stall. The Bill will introduce regulation-making powers to restrict these elements for both nicotine and non-nicotine vaping products.

Of course, for these changes to have an impact, we will need to ensure that they are properly implemented and enforced, particularly to deal with the illegal tobacco and vape markets. Therefore, the Bill strengthens the enforcement system by introducing on-the-spot fines for underage sales of tobacco and vaping products in England and Wales, which means that trading standards officers can take swifter action. Alongside our ambitious smoke-free Wales strategy, this Bill is a step forward in public health, and it has the potential to prevent disease, disability and deaths. I will keep Members updated as we move ahead with this work, which is vital to supporting a healthier nation for us all. Thank you.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. I am speaking on this statement today in my official capacity as shadow Minister for mental health and early years, rather than a personal capacity. The mental health and early years portfolio covers addiction.

Often, legislators can be quite lethargic when reacting to a sudden-onset problem, and I would put youth vaping within that category. It's important that we act quickly as this has been a growing problem for some years, but I'm pleased to see the Tobacco and Vapes Bill at Committee Stage in Westminster, so it's important that we do not get left behind in Wales. Without similar legislation in Wales, there is a concern that there could be an increase in young people from England crossing the border into Wales to purchase cigarettes or disposable vapes.

Speaking on the importance of creating a smoke-free generation, I will touch on some of those statistics now. Over 80 per cent of smokers started before they turned 30, many as children, and it is estimated that over 200,000 children a year start smoking in the UK, with some association between smoking and other substance abuse. We already know how bad smoking is for your health. It increases the risk of stillbirths, asthma in children, dementia, strokes, heart failure, and, of course, cancer.

We are already winning the battle on smoking, but the vaping regulation included in the Bill is imperative. Companies are marketing the products in an enticing way to appeal to under-18s with vibrant colours and exotic flavours. These disposable vapes have largely replaced smoking in schools, with one in five young people from years 7 and 8 having tried vaping according to the School Health Research Network, and 5 per cent of secondary school pupils in Wales vaping at least once a week. I must stress that e-cigarettes are a legitimate and successful avenue for smoking cessation, but marketing them towards children is wrong, and has resulted in large-scale uptake amongst children. This is now our problem to solve.

The Tobacco and Vapes Bill is a historic and ambitious move by the Prime Minister to solve this long-term problem and ensure our young people never take up smoking. It is, however, an adult's right to smoke if they so choose, as it is a person's right to eat junk food or engage in any other dangerous endeavour, and I am not prone to paternalistic policies when it comes to what adults do with their own bodies. However, when it comes to predatory marketing of unhealthy products aimed at children, state action is required. There needs to be greater enforcement of the current laws to prevent young people from smoking, but this also begins in schools where teachers are reporting issues of children vaping with increasing frequency. Schools need to be proactive in clamping down on the use of these devices, alongside the legislative action, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary for Education will also address this matter too.

The UK Labour Party is supporting this Bill, and I am pleased that the Welsh Labour Government and Welsh Labour in general have taken the same position. We are pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for health has announced this legislative consent motion to achieve continuity with England and other devolved administrations in implementing the Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2024. It is the view of the Welsh Conservatives that this is the correct decision to ensure the health of the next generation. Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth, and can I congratulate you on retaining your role? I actually think that poor old Rishi Sunak is not going to have a heck of a lot to show in terms of his legacy, but this is something that I think that, I hope, will be a part of his legacy. It is practically the only worthwhile thing he has done as a Prime Minister, because the fact is that tobacco kills about 8 million people across the world annually. In Wales that's about 5,600 deaths a year, at a cost of £302 million. So, this is not cost free, and it's not cost free, obviously, to the individuals, but it's not cost free to us as a society either.

One of the things I am most concerned about at the moment in relation to health is our cancer rates. I am very, very worried about what's happening. But one of the things I'm most worried about is the disparities in terms of the outcomes for people who have cancer. There is a direct link, as I set out in my statement, between those areas that are more deprived and those that are least deprived in terms of cancer rates. So, about 22 per cent of people in our most deprived areas smoke, and about 8 per cent in our least deprived areas, and that is going to have an impact. Targeting those areas is going to be crucial.

On vapes, I agree with you. I think state action is required. It is quite frightening in terms of the numbers of young people who've taken up vaping, and certainly the new law will help. I can assure you that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, who obviously led on this issue before, I know, is going to deal with this very seriously in relation to education as well. Obviously, the Labour Party is very supportive of this. It's a shame that not more Tory Members supported it when it went through the House of Commons.

As I have mentioned many times, the preventative agenda is pivotal to the long-term future of the NHS in Wales, and there are few more pressing issues for this agenda to address than smoking, which continues to impose intolerably high social and economic costs. Smoking kills 5,600 people a year here in Wales, while tobacco-related health issues create a bill for the Welsh NHS in excess of £300 million a year. As is illustrated by ASH Cymru's latest survey, smoking habits also run along existing class lines, thus entrenching health inequalities in our society. While 8 per cent of those living in the highest social grades are smokers, 17 per cent of those living in the lowest social grade are smokers. Smoking habits are also far more prevalent amongst individuals living in social housing, compared to home owners. The harmful impact of second-hand smoke is also well documented, and with around 13 per cent of non-smoking Welsh adults living in households with at least one smoker, the risk posed by tobacco use clearly extends well beyond that faced by the smokers themselves.

Such figures comprehensively demolish the specious, libertarian counter-argument that measures to curb smoking are somehow an assault on personal freedoms. Upholding personal freedoms also entails guaranteeing that no-one should have to develop adverse health conditions as a result of the actions of others, and ensuring that future generations are not burdened with the enormous societal cost that smoking incurs. Moreover, when she isn't railing against a deep state—which now apparently also includes the famous lettuce that outlived her premiership—Liz Truss has become the standard-bearer for the opposition to the smoke-free initiative, which tells you everything you need to know about its credibility. If she's opposed, then it must be a good idea.

I therefore welcome today's statement and the consensus across the nations of the UK on this issue. It's clear, as is laid out in the ASH Cymru survey, there is widespread appetite amongst non-smokers and smokers alike for boldness on this issue. Fifty per cent of respondents have said that the Welsh Government isn't doing enough at present on tobacco control, which includes 20 per cent of current smokers. So, if we are to truly realise the ambition of creating a smoke-free Wales by 2030, we must be prepared to seize the initiative without delay.

The legislative framework provided by the UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill does undoubtedly represent a step in the right direction on paper, but in practice it can only be effective if it is accompanied by robust and fully funded enforcement. So, I'd be grateful, therefore, if the Minister could explain what assurances the Welsh Government has received from the UK Government on the relevant resourcing implications for Welsh police forces. How confident is the Minister that they will receive additional funding for enforcing this legislation, as opposed to being asked to do more with the same insufficient pot of money?

And while the statement primarily relates to measures being undertaken under the umbrella of pan-UK legislation, it's also important that devolved levers at the disposal of the Welsh Government are not overlooked either. The issue of youth vaping is a growing concern amongst the general public, as the pupils of Ysgol Glan y Môr in Pwllheli made clear to me recently, especially given the large unregulated state of the industry. The powers to create a retail register with specific licensing standards for vaping vendors are contained within the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, but they have, so far, never been used. So, could the Minister explain this oversight on the part of the Welsh Government, and when can we expect to see the implementation of a vaping retail register in Wales? Finally, could the Minister provide an update on the likely time frames for the introduction of a legislative ban on disposable vapes in Wales, which continue to inflict significant environmental costs? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, I think, first of all, we should actually celebrate a little bit of success in this area. The fact is that the rates of smoking have come down not insignificantly over the past 10 years. So, in 2010 23 per cent of the Welsh population smoked. Today that figure is 13 per cent. So, it's not a bad improvement, but we still have a long way to go, and we do have this ambition to get to 5 per cent by 2030. So, that, apparently, would make us a smoke-free Wales. I haven't quite worked out how 5 per cent makes you smoke free, but there you are, that's what they say is possible—there we go.

What I can tell you is that we have a very clear delivery plan, so I think it's unfair to say that Welsh Government is not doing enough in this area. We've definitely done quite a lot of work on the smoke-free environment, there is continuous improvement and support in terms of innovation, we are tackling and targeting priority groups, we're very much tackling the illegal trade in tobacco and we're working across the UK. And, of course, we do have measures to support people in their efforts to stop smoking.

Just in terms of enforcement—you asked about that—of course, it's trading standards that has to regulate in this area, and, you're quite right, everybody is stretched at the moment. So, of course, we do need to make sure that, when we introduce new laws, we do have the capacity to make sure that the money is there. Youth vaping: vapes, they have to be registered with the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, but, you're quite right, at the moment there is no requirement to have any kind of licensing in relation to retail vaping. And I'm not averse to looking at that, but my understanding is that we may need some additional primary powers, and, obviously, our legislative programme is quite burdened at the moment. But just as a principle, I very much would be willing to look at whether that is something that we could look at as a Government.

Cabinet Secretary, the Petitions Committee currently has two live petitions under consideration. One of them is a petition calling for a ban on the sale of single-use vapes, with a total of 455 signatures, and I’m pleased the Cabinet Secretary for climate change just yesterday made an announcement on progress with a date of—I think it was April 2025. And that would mean, when a ban would come into force, another petition achieving real success here in terms of policy change.

The second petition, Cabinet Secretary, received over 9,000 signatures in total and it was in reference to what you were referring to, Mabon ap Gwynfor, with regard to the licensing of vaping shops. They want to ensure staff are properly trained; they also want to guarantee customer safety. They have real concerns around the fake vapes and also illegal products being too readily available to many people. I heard what you said in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor, but perhaps the Minister could commit to updating the Chamber again when you’ve had further thoughts on that matter. Diolch.

Thanks very much. I was very pleased that Huw Irranca-Davies was able to make that announcement, which means that we will be phasing out those single-use vapes, which of course will have a double benefit, not just for the environment, but obviously hopefully in stopping young people from taking up the opportunities, because I think there is definitely a worrying increasing trend in relation to that. About 5 per cent of secondary school-age people between 11 and 16 are regular smokers; 20 per cent of them have tried vapes, and about 14 per cent in year 11 vape weekly. So, these are quite high numbers, I think, and obviously what you don’t want, and I’ve had some very interesting discussions with the children’s commissioner last week, who has also focused on this issue, and she has done some very interesting research, just talking to some children about their concerns—. And one of the things that she was saying is that, actually, they are concerned about the increasing number, and the number of children who can’t get through a whole lesson now because they need to have a vape, so that is really, really concerning. So, this is getting serious, and I think this comes at the right time.

Just to let you know also that Public Health Wales did some research on this, and they had and incident response group. They published a paper on 18 April, so just last week, on this particular issue, and one of the things that they mentioned in their response was also whether we need to be considering the licensing of vape shops. So, it’s definitely not off the agenda; the question is if you can let me do a little bit more research about if it might be possible through secondary legislation—obviously more difficult if it’s primary—but as a principle, I certainly wouldn’t object to looking further into that.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. I’m pleased that the former education Minister is here too, because certainly one of the messages I’m hearing from schools, but also from children and young people, is how much of a problem this is. It also means that schools, in trying to deal with this, are having to lock toilets, which means, then, in terms of periods and so on, that there is a lack of access to toilets, which is also huge problem. I was at a primary school recently, and this was the main issue that they wanted to discuss with me, and they were asking, ‘Please will you do something about this?’, saying that they could buy on TikTok Shop, so it’s not just in traditional shops—TikTok Shop is so easy for them—that the flavours are targeted at them, such as Slush Puppy, for example, and that it’s something that they really want to see action from us on as politicians. So, I promised that, when I had an opportunity to ask a question, I would raise these concerns, because the access to these products, and the lack of regulation, and the kinds of vapes—. Certainly there is a role for vaping in terms of helping people quit smoking, but the problems caused by this in terms of children and young people are significant, and I think that schools do need support too.

So, can I ask you: will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education too to ensure that there is more support for schools in how to deal with this, and that we look at an awareness raising campaign on the concerns that our children and young people have and that we support them in stopping their fellow pupils from vaping?

Thank you very much, and I'm certainly willing to work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education on how we can provide additional support to schools to deal with this issue. It's extraordinary that children in primary schools are talking about this matter, and that's a cause of great concern, of course. One of the things that this new legislation will do is to place less of a focus on the colour and flavour, and that targeting, available to children and hitherto targeted at children. So that will be an outcome of this new legislation. Another thing that's worth saying, perhaps, is that the UK Chancellor has placed a duty on vapes, which will be introduced in autumn 2026, so the cost of vapes will go up and, hopefully, that will also prevent children from buying vapes in future.

I'd like to congratulate Welsh Government on its work for a smoke-free Wales and a smoke-free generation, and also congratulate UK Government for the bold steps it's taken to help create that smoke-free generation. Cabinet Secretary, as far as registration is concerned, it was, actually, discussed at the last meeting of the cross-party group on smoking and health, where it was felt that it might well be possible to do under the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, which I guess is where the secondary legislation you mentioned as a possibility might feature. It was emphasised how important it is to have that registration, that system to have some control over retailers of tobacco, vape and nicotine, because, obviously, we have to be in a position where we can do much more to prevent the illegal sale of vapes, for example. We've heard about how damaging they are to our young people, and I'd just like to add one thing to that, Cabinet Secretary. Would you agree that one of the very worrying aspects is research carried by scientists in Liverpool where they found that 29 per cent of illegal vapes contained lead, a metal that the World Health Organization warn high levels of exposure to can affect the brain development of our young people? It just gets worse and worse, doesn't it, as far as vaping and young people are concerned.

Thanks very much, and I wasn't aware of that particular research, so that is very concerning. Obviously, vapes are regulated by the MHRA, and people should not be—. Certainly, if they're going to vape, then make sure that it's been licensed by the MHRA. But that is very, very concerning. I know you've been a long-term champion in this area, and, as I say, I've made a commitment to look at whether it might be possible to introduce some kind of licensing under the current laws that we have. But I wouldn't discount, in the future, obviously—it would be difficult during this Senedd term—looking at whether, if that's not possible, we perhaps might consider primary legislation in this area.

Finally, Vikki Howells.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. I welcome your continued work to tackle the well-documented scourge of smoking and your work to address the newly developing health and societal issues associated with vaping. I visited my optician last week and was interested to see the work that was being done there to signpost people to smoking cessation services. I understand that this signposting forms part of the optometry contract, so, Cabinet Secretary, could you tell us more about this working across all areas of the Welsh NHS to help support people to quit smoking and how you monitor and track the performance of these initiatives? Secondly, I welcome your approach to tackling vaping amongst those who have never smoked, particularly amongst young people. It's clear that this requires a multifaceted approach that straddles both devolved and non-devolved areas. So, in your opinion, Cabinet Secretary, and noting the work of UK Government in this area to date, do you think this mix of devolved and non-devolved responsibilities will make it more difficult for you to take the actions you want, or do you see the UK Government's stance as complementing and perhaps even supporting the work of Welsh Government in this area?