National Assembly for Wales

Can I welcome everybody to today's hybrid meeting of the Senedd Petitions Committee? As a reminder, this meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as per usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place.

Item 1 on today's agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Joel James, and I'm pleased to welcome Altaf Hussain to our committee as his substitution. Can I remind committee members they should either note any declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during today's proceedings?

Item 2 on today's agenda is new petitions. Item 2.1, P-06-1385, 'Hold an unbiased survey of the residents who live in the 20mph speed limit pilot scheme areas'.

'From summer 2021 the Welsh government introduced a pilot scheme to reduce the default speed limit in urban areas from 30mph to 20 mph. The trial was brought in in several areas around Wales.'

The petition lists the trial areas and additional information for members of the committee to consider and for members of the public to see. This was submitted by David Ebbrell, with 779 signatures in total. I invite committee members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Thanks to the petitioner for bringing this one forward, and it's had 779 signatures on there, so it's had some interest. I think the initial final monitoring reports for the pilots were published in March 2023 and February 2024. Transport for Wales are monitoring—the monitoring framework says the data will be collected for up to five years post implementation, and this includes qualitative attitude surveys, so there is some work going on on this. Obviously, as part of this policy going through and as part of one of the debates that we had in the Chamber, monitoring, assessing and a review of this policy was something that Plaid Cymru argued for, and the Government agreed to review. So, obviously, there is an extensive monitoring operation going on currently, as would be the case with any major policy change. A lot of what the petition is asking for is being done anyway, so I think we could thank the petitioner for bringing this forward. Obviously, there's a very big petition that we will be discussing in the next few weeks or next few months, I'm not entirely sure when, so I think it'll roll into that. But with this particular petition, I think we should write to the petitioner, thank them for bringing it to our attention and explain that what they're asking to happen is happening and take it from there. So, my recommendation would be to close this petition down. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. Any other further comments from Members? No, I can see they agree. To note, as well, the petition you also referred to, the large petition about the 20 mph roll-out, will be coming to committee for consideration—I don't think it's the next meeting, but the one after that, if my memory serves me correctly.

Item 2.2, P-06-1386, 'Introduce a way for constituents to vote out their MS before the end of their term'.

'There is currently no way of removing the Senedd Member for your area if their constituents are not happy with them—once voted in they will remain there for 5 years unless they voluntarily resign their seat.

'This petition calls for the Senedd to adopt a recall procedure...or something similar, so that constituents can call for an MS to vacate their seat. The conditions to trigger a recall would be an online petition of at least 100 signatures of eligible registered voters.' 

Additional information is available on this petition, submitted by Deborah Dangerfield, with 2,012 signatures in total. I'll bring in committee members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. We'll go to Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for this very important petition. Thinking of Senedd reform, could we write to the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee highlighting this petition, and request it to be considered as evidence in its future consideration of the recall of Members, if possible, please.

Peredur Owen Griffiths.

I sit on the standards committee as well, and one of the things that we have been asked to do is do a bit of work around this, so I'm sure writing from this committee to the other committee about this, to highlight this, would be useful, and add into that discourse, but I think probably, then, we'll be in a position to close this petition down. Thank you.

Thank you, Peredur. I can see agreement from all members of the committee to do just that and write to the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, but then closing this particular petition for our committee.

Item 2.3, P-06-1391, ‘Introduce regulation of the dog grooming sector, to protect the welfare of dogs and rights of owners’.

‘We believe that the establishment of clear guidelines, licensing requirements, and industry standards will aid the welfare and safety of dogs during grooming procedures. There's no regulatory framework at all of the sector, whether at local authority or national level. It doesn't fall within the oversight of any charity or the RSPCA.

‘The last 3 years has seen an exponential growth in dog ownership and the businesses that service their needs. Establishing standards is long overdue.’

Again, there is additional information for this petition available to members of the committee and members of the public. It was submitted by Brian Howell, with a total of 284 signatures. I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition, and any actions the committee may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. As you quite rightly mentioned, there are no specific regulations with regard to dog grooming establishments in Wales. I note there is a Welsh Government consultation at the moment with regard to the licensing of animal welfare establishments. That consultation came to an end last Friday. I suggest that the committee writes to the Welsh Government, to the relevant Minister, and asks if this petition is considered as part of that consultation. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Rhys, for that suggestion. Any further comments from Members? No, they're in agreement. Thank you.

Item 2.4, P-06-1392, ‘Reform of the additional learning needs Code of Wales 2021’.

‘Despite only a couple of years into the changes and promises of earlier and better support for children and young people with ALN, more and more ALN pupils are being missed in Wales. There are also issues with consistency and accountability.

'There is still a large focus on Universal Provisions as opposed to the holistic approach of Person Centred IDPs for ALN pupils. Pupils with mental health / physical disabilities should have equal access to support and a quality education.’

Again, there is additional information made available on this petition to members of the committee and members of the public. It was submitted by Victoria Anne Lightbown, with a total of 15,160 signatures. And just to update Members of my work as Chair, I've just come out of a meeting with the lead petitioner, Vicky, and colleagues from ALN reform Wales. We met earlier this afternoon. I know some colleagues are in the Senedd gallery today. They were clear of the current situation, the situation that isn't working for a large number of families across Wales. I'm sure I'm not the only member of this committee and of the Senedd who is dealing with similar concerns from constituents across Wales. The arguments they made of the current system were that it was not working for parents, it wasn't working for teachers and it wasn't, of course, working for the children, whose needs aren't being met.

I'm also aware, and Members will be aware, of the Children, Young People and Education Committee's work in scrutinising the implementation of the reform. That's an ongoing piece of work until May 2026, and the petitioner is on the online advisory group for that piece of work. Having said that, and having the number of petitions that we've had of this topic—I think it's now five in the last couple of months—can I recommend to committee that we do request a debate, and we'll write to the Business Committee at the end of this meeting to suggest that? Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Yes. Is it possible, then, to—? I know this would possibly be the lead Plenary debate if we had one, but would we be able to take into account the other petitions as well, just so that they all—? I don't know what mechanism we've got to do that, but I think it's such an important topic that we can't lose some of that information that we've gathered from the others as well.

Yes. Diolch, Peredur. I think we can. I've used some of my time in the Senedd Chamber to highlight, with the Minister for education in particular, some of the petitions that have been raised in question sessions to him and other debates that we've had on the topic. The Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee is made aware of all the petitions we've had, all five of them, and the offer to join the online advisory group has been made and taken up by some, if not all. For this petition, let's write to the Business Committee—well, I'll make the suggestion to write to the Business Committee—to debate this petition, but as part of my—. If it's agreed by the Business Committee to be scheduled, as part of my opening contribution as Chair of this committee, I'll make reference to the other petitions that we've had, and I'm sure Members can do the same in their own contribution in the Chamber. Are Members content? Any further comments? No, okay. Okay, we'll action those points, then. Diolch.

Item 2.5, P-06-1396, 'Introduce a vape licence for dedicated vape shops'.

'Lack of training and a licence can cause unsuitable products and illegal devices to be sold, which can be dangerous and hinder the chances of becoming a non-smoker. There are also fake and illegal vape products that are not compliant with UK regulations in circulation, which is a danger to the public. Licenced premises authorised to sell vape products should lower this as they buy directly from licensed suppliers, so they won't be fakes, bought cheaply on the black market to make a quick buck.'

Again, additional information is available to members of this committee and members of the public. This was submitted by Claire Ford, with a total of 9,035 signatures. Members, particularly Peredur Owen Griffiths and Joel James, who isn't here, will remember meeting the petitioners and supporters of this campaign a few weeks ago now—and just to say, they collected most of these signatures on paper, which is quite an effort there. I will bring in Members to discuss this petition now and any actions. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Yes, it was very—. Thank you, Chair. It was very impressive to see the stack of signed petitions, because, you know, over 8,000 names on paper is impressive compared to ticking a box or going through the online process, but actually physically getting it together was some task. And I think it falls a little bit short of our 10,000, but it's still very, very emotive, really, to see that coming together.

I think there are a few aspects here that we probably need to unpack in what can and can't be done, especially around who can sell these and—. We've had discussions in the Chamber and elsewhere around vaping and the nature of disposable ones compared to ones that we would use for more medical issues. So, I think when we spoke to the petitioners as well, they had anecdotal evidence of these being sold in different shops, and the regulation should probably be looked into, and see what's what. So, I think what would be good is if we're able to ask the Deputy Minister to provide more details, with a view of seeing what the Minister has to say about this first, with a view then of maybe looking at a debate at a later date, depending on what comes back from that, and maybe being able to give us some context around what the UK Government is doing around this aspect as well, because I think that's been highlighted in some of the things coming through from Westminster as well. So, if we could write to the Minister to start with and then see where that takes us to after that, please, Chair.

Diolch, Peredur. Any comments—? Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. Just to say that I know that in all the schools that I've visited in my constituency, vaping has become a huge issue, so I agree with everything Peredur has said, and I really think that this petition should be kept open. This could be a further piece of work that we, as a committee, could take on as well.

Thanks, Buffy. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, it's a very important piece of work, and we really need to look into what's happening. I would be grateful if the committee looks into why we have not included shisha stalls, which are so prevalent in the city centres, and they are using smoking and other vaping agents, which are a concern. So, I would suggest that the committee thinks to include that as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Altaf, for that. I think, given your point there, Altaf, we can certainly include that in the letter to go to the Deputy Minister to tease out some more information before considering this petition again and whether there is work, but it clearly is a topic of interest, with UK Government announcements and Welsh Government support at the moment.

Okay, item 2.6, P-06-1401, 'Ensure that publicly procured foods in Wales are never exclusively vegan or vegetarian'.

'The Chair of the National Infrastructure Commission in Wales has started a petition requesting that all publicly procured food in Wales should be vegetarian
or vegan.

'What we eat is an individual's choice.

'It is an insult to the people of Wales, trying to dictate what we eat.

'It is an insult to the farmers in Wales trying to make a living.

'It’s also damaging to the Welsh economy.'

This was submitted by Hannah Bragg, with 344 signatures in total, and I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and I'd like to thank the petitioner. I'm not quite sure where we as a committee can go with this petition. I've read the notes and I can see the Minister for rural affairs has said

'it is for public bodies to take their own procurement decisions according to their needs so long as they do so within what the law permits.'

So, as a committee, I'm not quite sure where we could take this petition. With that in mind, I'd like to thank the petitioner and close this petition.

Diolch, Buffy. I can see Members are content.

Item 2.7, P-06-1402, 'Amend legislation in Wales to align with England for Excessive Council Tax Increases'. 

'In England local authorities are required to determine whether the amount of council tax they plan to raise is "excessive". The Secretary of State sets thresholds of excessiveness, known as "referendum principles". Currently local councils in Wales can increase Council Tax annually up to 10% without a local referendum which was done by Welsh councils in the last 12 months. Many are now planning to do this again placing a massive financial burden on already struggling households.'

There's additional information available to members of this committee and members of the public. This was submitted by David Titheridge, with 331 signatures. I'll invite committee members in to discuss this petition and any action they may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Council tax increase is something we hear about often from constituents, and complaining about council tax increase more often than not. And it's also something we discuss regularly on the floor of the Senedd. However, we have had a response from Welsh Government with regards to this matter. It's clear from the response that there's no intention by the Government to introduce referenda. They mention the difficulty with regards to cost and complexities of referenda, and they note that they do already have the power to take action against local government if the Welsh Government believes that the increase is excessive. 

Again, I think this is a petition that I don't think we can take any further, given the firm response from Welsh Government. So, my suggestion is that we thank the petitioner for a very topical petition, and an issue which comes up often, but thank him and close the petition. Diolch. 

Diolch, Rhys. I can see Members are content. And, again, this is a topical petition and I'm sure local Members will continue to raise these matters on the floor of the Senedd. 

Item 2.8, P-06-1403, 'Reconsider cuts to Postgraduate funding and increase Doctoral Loans to match UKRI Stipend.' 

'Postgraduates play a pivotal role in advancing knowledge, innovation, and cultivating expertise. However - the Welsh Government's Draft Budget 2024/25 announced the removal of £12.8m from Postgraduate grants and bursaries. This will discourage aspiring Postgraduate students due to increased financial burdens, jeopardise the diversity of our academic programmes, hinder the competitiveness of our institutions globally and have an impact on the growth of the Welsh economy and communities.'

Again, there's additional information available for members of the public and the committee about this petition. This was submitted by Micaela Panes, with a total of 2,156 signatures. Can I bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take? Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. It's a really interesting petition to look at, especially given the context of the Welsh Government budget at the moment and the education budget in particular and how tight things are, and to see how Government decisions do affect different aspects. I think, reading through and understanding what the impact is on doctoral students, it does worry me what the effect might be. And I think there's a couple of questions we could seek clarification on from the Minister. If we could send a letter to the Minister asking to clarify the final few points that have been raised and let the petitioner know that information, but I think, with this petition, given the current budgetary situation, and the final budget being voted on tomorrow, that we thank them for the petition, close, but ask to seek those clarification points and send those clarification points that we get from the Minister to the petitioner when they come through. 

Diolch, Peredur. Altaf Hussain. 

Yes, it is very important to look into it, but my worry is I don't know when it was started, and it might be a good idea to ask the Minister about the audit and what has happened to the people who have received this previously and what are they doing. Looking into that, then we could go ahead and see if it is an important contribution to this target. Thank you.

Thank you, Altaf, for that suggestion. I think, again, in the questions that have been posed by the petitioner following the Minister’s response, it talks about the challenges of incoming and current students, but, of course, we could ask the question of students who have completed post-graduate doctoral—. Thoughts, Peredur.

Is it worth then that we leave this petition open if we want to get that clarification? Because I tend to agree with Altaf there on finding out if there is any data or any information as to what happened. Do we track that information through, and maybe we hang fire on closing this one down until we get that answer back, and then maybe have a discussion then around the answers and whether or not anything goes on, and then maybe close it down after that?

Okay. Are Members content with the suggestion? Yes, they are. Okay, thank you.

Okay, item 3, updates to previous petitions. 

Item 3.1, P-06-1294, 'Don't leave metastatic breast cancer patients in Wales behind'. This was submitted by Tassia Haines, with a total of 14,106 signatures. Just to say to members of the committee that I was particularly saddened to hear that Tassia's health has deteriorated significantly since we last met to discuss this petition and that she now is receiving end-of-life care. Our thoughts, of course, as a committee, and as individual Members, are very much with Tassia and her loved ones during this extremely difficult time. I found dealing with Tassia an absolutely pleasure, as Chair of this committee, and I think she has been an instrumental campaigner for metastatic breast cancer patients, not just across Wales, but certainly wider than that.

I'll invite committee members to discuss this petition now and any actions the committee may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I think that, every time this petition has come to committee, I've insisted we keep it open because Tassia was just tenacious and is tenacious. I think she's stolen a tiny piece of all our hearts. I've never met anyone with so much power around them, then. She is absolutely outstanding as a person, and my life is so much better to have met her and to have her in it.

This is one of those petitions that have become a success story, and just because of Tassia, because everybody that meets her wants the best for her and everyone around her and everybody that's been in her team. It was fantastic to hear the Minister speak in the last debate that we had and saying that we were going to drive forward, we were going to get these all-important metastatic breast cancer nurses, and, through Tassia's sheer determination, and Macmillan, we have them now. And I think it's on us all as Members to ensure we keep fighting for these nurses, that we keep fighting for this extraordinary provision for these women, and we never forget—we never forget—the hard work and determination that Tassia showed through this petition, through the work of this petition, and we always remember and we always do our best whenever we can where this petition is concerned. So, I will say: can we close this petition, please?

Diolch yn fawr for that, Buffy. Altaf Hussain.

I was quickly going through this. Now, for caring about the patient, there are a few aspects, really. It is the in-charge consultant who sees the patient and prioritises the treatment, and then it is his duty to look into the continuation of care of the patient. Now, these nurses that we're talking about are the different tentacles, that we try to help the clinicians to look after these patients. So, if there's no nurse available, it is the duty of the health board to help that consultant and it is the duty of that consultant who has seen the patient to see the patient again and to prioritise the treatment wherever they can get that. This is—.We're treating here human beings, and, if that aspect of care is not available, I don't think they should be dealing with breast cancer in that health board.

Thank you for that, Altaf. Can I, if Members allow, just read some of the achievements that have taken place since the introduction of this petition and the work from Tassia? Obviously, we had the debate on services for metastatic breast cancer patients in Wales on 19 October 2022. There has been a development of a specific metastatic breast cancer pathway by the strategic network for cancer, and the Minister, in her letter to committee, gives assurance that that will be published soon; more dedicated secondary breast cancer clinical nurse specialists across Wales, which Tassia highlighted how essential and valuable these roles would be; investment in a new cancer information system that will capture data on metastatic breast cancer so that it can be used to order care in the future; and the red-flag symptoms of metastatic breast cancer are now included as part of the treatment summary in the primary breast cancer pathway. Some of those things wouldn't have happened without the work of Tassia and those supporting her. I think Macmillan are in the Senedd gallery represented here today as well. But, on that note, in closing this petition, again, just to send the committee's thoughts to Tassia and all her loved ones and those who have supported her.

Item 3.2, P-06-1350, 'Re-open Dyfi Ward at Tywyn Hospital now', submitted by Jane Eleanor Seddon Barraclough with a total of 5,528 signatures. I will invite Members to discuss this petition and any action you may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I believe this is the third time we've discussed this matter. Since then—since the last time, last December—we've received correspondence from the health board, the Community Hospitals Association and the petitioner. Following the further concerns raised by the petitioner and the Community Hospitals Association, it's my suggestion that we write back to the health board asking for a further update on recruitment efforts, including efforts to recruit out of area—within the UK, but out of the specific health board area—and details on the health board's decision to withdraw the right for public questions to be asked at general meetings. That seems to be a complete lack of scrutiny on my part. So, a suggestion that we keep it open to send the further correspondence. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Rhys. I can see Members are content with your suggestion to do that, so we'll action those points.

Item 3.3, P-06-1380, 'Make Blue badge Applications Lifelong for individuals who have a lifelong diagnosis'. This was submitted by Stand North Wales CIC with a total of 1,618 signatures. Before I invite committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take, just to declare that I know the campaigners in Stand North Wales CIC—I've met with them on occasions and dealt with them through my office—so, I'll remove myself from any decision on this petition, but just to say I'm very supportive of the premise of the petition. On that point, I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any action they may wish to take. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Yes, it's godd to be able to discuss this petition again today. There are quite a few questions coming backward and forward with this one, and there are quite a few concerns raised. I know we've had some late correspondence in from Mark Isherwood, and I think it might be useful to take some time to look at some of the information that he's provided for us as well. We've had letters in from Gareth Davies as well, and also some information through from the Minister. It might be worth, yes, reflecting on that information. Who knows who the Minister might be in a few weeks' time, if things change within the Welsh Government Cabinet. So, it might be worth hanging fire, having a look at the information, maybe writing back to the relevant Minister then, once we've reflected on that, and then, once we've done that, bring this petition back to discuss further.

Diolch, Peredur Owen Griffiths. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, it is a very important concern, and I have been previously involved in meetings of the cross-party group, and I have gone through in detail Mark's letter, which is detailed, and it gives you a lot of input into what is happening and what could be done to help this issue. There are a few things I want to really highlight: there are too many loopholes in this, as Mark has raised, like the conditions that are from day one, when a child is born, and then it continues with progress and age. So, they can have these blue badges, and how he wants to have them, that is a concern. Then we have that renewal of these blue badges every three years. You know, when you have a DVLA licence, you want to have a renewal, they send you a letter three months before, so you have enough time to apply for that, and they see your health record—they see it, you know, when you get this renewal of your DVLA licence. So, here, Mark has suggested that it should be every five years. In that time, they should see the record in your health conditions, national insurance and all that, and passport, so it is on record and they don't have to really go from one local area to the other. So, it has to be centralised, whether it would be UK or Wales, and that will help it. And I think what I would suggest is to go through Mark's letter—he has written it well; a great colleague—and I think if we go through it, there are many issues that he has raised and answered and that the committee—. You know, I think it would help taking that on board, and getting with the Minister then, helping the Minister in identifying issues, so that we can help these issues at the committee level. Thank you.

Thank you, Altaf, and just to bring both points together, then, I think there was an agreement—and Members can tell me if I'm wrong—to write back to the Welsh Government with the questions raised from the petitioner and, of course, the letter we've received from Mark Isherwood, but to just reflect on the letter that we've received today. And in drafting that note to go to the Welsh Government, perhaps colleagues on the committee, members of the committee, can make a suggestion in an e-mail or conversations with clerks before we send any letter. I'm assuming that makes sense to both the Members who've made the suggestions. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Just quickly as well, I'm not sure—. I haven't read it in the notes, but just something, maybe, that we'd want to add to the letter, which might have a bearing, is changing the law with regard to ID for voting. A blue badge is one of the ones that you can use. So, I might put a different aspect in, if it was a lifetime one. I'm not sure, I'm just thinking out loud. That may be something that we might want to highlight to the Minister, and seeing if there's any legal aspect there that we haven't even thought about within this petition.

Okay. Thank you, Peredur. I will ask clerks to consider that matter as well, and for—. Gareth.

If we draft something, we'll circulate it to Members before we send it.

Are Members content? I see that they are.

Item 4 on today's business is now to conclude the public session. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the session? Are Members content? They are. Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn. We'll meet again on 18 March, for our next session of this committee. We'll now go into private session. Diolch.