National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everybody, to this afternoon's meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We're in a virtual setting today, with all our members here. So, just some housekeeping issues right at the very beginning. We're being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, as normal. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual as well. But apart from the usual procedural adaptations for holding these proceedings in a virtual setting, all the other Standing Order requirements are in place. So, as per normal, if you can make sure that your mobile devices are switched to silent, please—and I'm just doing that myself. We're operating through both English and Welsh today, and we have interpretation available, and the sound operators behind the scenes should control your microphones. 

So, with that, and noting that we're fully quorate, let's go straight to our first substantive item, which is item 2, the instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.1 or 21.2. And the first of these is a made negative resolution instrument. It's item 2.1, SL(6)454, the National Health Service Joint Commissioning Committee (Wales) Regulations 2024.

The National Health Service Joint Commissioning Committee (Wales) Directions 2024 provide that local health boards in Wales must establish the NHS Wales joint commissioning committee to jointly exercise functions relating to the planning and securing of certain services. The regulations make provision for the constitution and membership of the joint committee, including its procedures and its administrative arrangements.

So, we have this instrument in front of us today. Our lawyers have identified six technical reporting points and one merits reporting point. So, Kate, if I could come to you for your observations, please, and we haven't had a Welsh Government response yet, have we?

That's correct. Each of the six technical points relate to potentially defective drafting around the use of defined terms. The merits point notes that the regulations refer to the National Health Service Joint Commissioning Committee (Wales) Directions 2024, but these do not appear to have been published, so this could cause issues around accessibility of the law. Just to note, it looks like the directions have been published since the draft report was circulated. So, they were published on the Welsh Government's website on 29 February, but the reporting point still stands because they weren't available at the time the regulations were made and laid at the beginning of February, and we're waiting for Welsh Government's response.

Thank you, Kate. Any comments, colleagues, or are we happy to note that? Agreeing, yes. We agree those reporting points, Kate, thank you. 

We'll go to item number 2.2, then, please. We have a draft report and a written statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language in your packs relating to this. It's SL(6)455, the Education (Student Finance) (Fee Limit and Loan Amounts) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024. These regulations make various amendments to student support regulations that were made in 2015, 2017 and 2018.

The amendments include, for public record, increasing the maximum tuition fees that institutions with a fee and access plan are able to charge for full-time undergraduate courses under the 2015 regulations. They also include increasing the maximum amount of tuition fee loan available to certain categories of students undertaking courses at ordinary providers in Wales under the 2018 regulations. Our lawyers have identified two technical reporting points and one merits reporting point. Kate, back to you for your observations, please.

Thank you. The first technical point asks Welsh Government to explain the purpose of amendments to the 2017 regulations, which are described as 'corrections' in the explanatory note, but are not explained in the explanatory memorandum. The second technical point asks Welsh Government to explain a discrepancy between the regulations and the explanatory note as to the date on which the relevant academic year begins. The merits point is just to note that no consultation was undertaken on the regulations for the reasons set out in the explanatory memorandum, and we're waiting for the Welsh Government response to the two technical points.

Thank you, Kate. Are we happy to agree those points, colleagues? We are, good. 

We'll move on then to item 2.3, and item 2.3 is an affirmative resolution instrument, SL(6)456, the Packaging Waste (Data Collection and Reporting) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. We have the draft report in our pack. These regulations amend the regulations of the same name that were made last year in order to clarify the division of responsibilities between brand owners, packers/fillers, importers and first UK owners and distributors. They also place a requirement upon Natural Resources Wales to produce guidance in respect of household packaging and to publish a list of large producers. A number of miscellaneous amendments are also made, including the amendment of two typographical errors.

There are quite a number of technical reporting points here that our lawyers have identified; there are 12 of them, and four merits reporting points. Kate, back to you, there are quite a few on this one.

Yes, thank you. So, of the 12 technical reporting points, five are raising matters that require further explanation from Welsh Government, another five relate to potentially defective drafting, and then two identify inconsistencies between the meaning of the Welsh and English language texts. The first merits point is asking Welsh Government to confirm the basis for the affirmative procedure applying to these regulations. The second merits point asks Welsh Government about consultation as required by section 2(4) of the 1999 Act, as this is cited in the preamble to the regulations, but it's not explained in the explanatory memorandum. And the third and fourth merits points are just points to note: first, that no regulatory impact assessment has been carried out, and, second, that the regulations are within scope of the resources and waste common framework. So, we're waiting for a Welsh Government response to each of the technical points and two of the merits points.

Thank you, Kate. Thanks for that analysis, really strong and detailed. Are we happy to agree those points, colleagues? We are. Thank you.

We'll go on then, Kate and colleagues, to item 2.4. We've got two items left in this section. Item 2.4 relates to SL(6)457, the Special School Residential Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2024. Again, we have a draft report, which our team have prepared for us. These regulations set the quality standards against which special school residential services will be regulated and inspected against, under the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, replacing the national minimum standards for residential special schools made under the Care Standards Act 2000. The regulations also make various other provisions regarding special school residential services, including provisions in relation to requirements on responsible individuals for compliance, quality and oversight of the service. Our lawyers have identified nine technical reporting points. So, Kate, once again, we're in your hands to tell us what you found. 

Thank you. Of these nine technical points, six are matters that require further explanation from Welsh Government. Two relate to potentially defective drafting, and then the final one identifies an inconsistency between the Welsh and English language texts, and we're waiting for the Welsh Government's response to these points.

Thank you, Kate. Are we content, colleagues? We are. Thank you. Okay.

And the final one in this section then is item 2.5, which is SL(6)458, the Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Amendment) and Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024. Again, we have a draft report for us to consider. These regulations prescribe the standard rate, the lower rate and unauthorised disposals rate for landfill disposals tax that will apply to taxable disposals made on or after 1 April 2024. Just to note, these regulations also make use of a Henry VIII power to make a minor correction to a cross-reference in the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016. Our lawyers have identified two merits reporting points. Kate, what have you found?

The first merits point is just to note that landfill disposals tax is collected and manged by the Welsh Revenue Authority, and, therefore, it's paid into the Welsh consolidated fund. The second merits point asks Welsh Government about the impact of the error in the 2016 Act that's being corrected by these regulations, and, in particular, Welsh Government is asked whether any penalties were imposed, potentially unlawfully, as a result of the cross-referencing error. In its response, Welsh Government confirms that no penalties have been or will be imposed before this correction takes effect.

Thank you very much, Kate. Colleagues, if we're content then, we can close that section and go on to the next section. 

Item 3 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 that we've previously considered. We've got a couple of items in this section. The first one is a made negative resolution instrument under item 3.1. This is SL(6)440, the Agricultural Holdings (Units of Production) (Wales) Order 2024. We have a report here and also a letter from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, and a letter to the Minister as well.

We looked at this instrument—we considered this instrument—on 29 January and we laid our report that day. Our committee then wrote to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, seeking further clarification about the delays to the making and laying of this Order and any effect that these delays may have had on individuals across Wales who brought forward succession cases and were required to wait for the new figures provided by the Order to resolve their claims. So, I simply invite you to note the response that we have had now from the Minister. Kate, is there anything you wanted to raise on this?

Yes. So, must to note that the Minister's response confirms that none of the six cases in progress were adversely affected by the delay in making the Order. So, this is obviously reassuring, but you may want to note that it would have been helpful to have this information when the Order was first laid, so perhaps include it in the explanatory memorandum.

That's really helpful. Thank you for that, and it's good that we've got that on public record now as well. Thank you very much.

Colleagues, if you're content with that, we'll go on to the other one in this section, then, which is item 3.2, SL(6)453, the Official Controls (Import of High-Risk Food and Feed of Non-Animal Origin) (Amendment of Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2019/1793) (Wales) Regulations 2024. Again, we've got a report and a Welsh Government response in relation to this. We considered this instrument in our meeting on 19 February, and we laid our report the same day. So, we've had the Welsh Government response now. Anything in particular to pick up on this, Kate?

No, nothing. Thank you.

Okay. Any comments, colleagues, or are we happy to note that response? We are. Okay, thank you.

We'll go on, then, to item No. 4, which is the notifications of correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. We have a few items here in this section for our attention in public session today. The first of these, under item 4.1, is the correspondence from Welsh Government in relation to various inter-ministerial group meetings. So, we've got a letter from the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution informing us that a meeting of the Interministerial Standing Committee that was due to take place on 20 February 2024 has been postponed, and the Counsel General will notify us when a new date has been confirmed. We also have the letter from the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism informing us that a meeting of the culture and creative industries inter-ministerial group that was scheduled to take place on 4 March has been cancelled and a new date is being sought. The Deputy Minister also, just to note, tells us that she was attending the sports inter-ministerial group on 1 March, which was being hosted by the Scottish Government. Now, shout at me if you want to pause, stop or comment on any of these, otherwise I'll just go to them one by one.

Item 4.2, then: we have a written statement and correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, informing us that she has given her consent to the Minister of State to lay the draft Official Controls (Fees and Charges) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. The regulations were laid before Parliament on 26 February 2024, and if approved, they'll come into force on 30 April 2024. The Minister also confirms that the regulations intersect with devolved policy and will apply to Wales, and informs us that consent has been given in order to implement the milestones of the border target operating model.

I'll go on to item 4.3 here, and we note the correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government, informing us of her intention to consent to the UK Government making the Procurement Act 2023 (Commencement No. 2) Regulations 2024. The Minister tells us that the Welsh Ministers intend to consent to these regulations to allow substantive regulations to implement the new procurement regime under the 2023 Act to be laid before the Senedd. The Minister also informs us that further commencement regulations will be necessary to commence further provisions in the 2023 Act, and those regulations will also require the consent of Welsh Ministers. The Minister has undertaken to update us and the Senedd where consent is given.

And that brings us on to item 4.4, where we note the correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, informing us of her intention to consent to the UK Government making and laying the Environment and Rural Affairs (Revocation and Consequential Provision) Regulations 2024. The Minister tells us that these regulations will revoke legislation identified as redundant following the UK's exit from the EU, which was not included in Schedule 1 to the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023. The Minister also states that the revocation of these instruments will have no policy effect in Wales. The Minister states further that

'it is considered appropriate for the UK Government to legislate on a GB-wide basis'

as this will

'ensure redundant legislation is revoked equally across the nations to which they applied.'

Item 4.5, then, the final item in this section: we’re invited to note the correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, informing us that she intends to give her consent for the Sea Fisheries (International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024 to be laid in relation to Wales, and the Minister confirms that the 2024 regulations make provision in relation to the International Convention for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas to which the United Kingdom is a contracting party. In particular, the regulations update and amend retained EU law to account for further requirements under the convention with respect to recreational and sport fishing.

Just finally, the Minister notes that

'Although the conduct of international relations is a reserved function, the obligations and their implementation are devolved in so far as they relate to devolved matters (e.g. fisheries) and extend to Welsh Ministers in respect of Wales and the Welsh zone.'

And the Minister states it is appropriate that the regulations are made on a UK basis, as they

'implement UK-wide, international obligations in relation to the Convention'.

And can I just say, as there are two former fisheries Ministers on this call, it’s good to see some encouraging news linked to that about some of the return of the bluefin tuna, spectacular beast that it is?

Okay, let’s go on, then, to item 5, where we have papers to note. And, again, just for colleagues to be aware, we can return to any of those items we’ve just discussed and here in our private session this afternoon.

So, we’ll turn to item 5.1. We only have one item to note within these papers today. Item 5.1: we have correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, where he responds to the three recommendations made by our committee in our report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government’s draft budget for 2024-25.

Colleagues, we have zipped through there a lot of important business, and we thank our legal team and our clerks for their help in putting together those reports, but if you’re content, we will now, under item 6, put the motion, under Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Shall we head into private, colleagues? We will. So, if I could ask our clerks if you can take us into private session.