National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everybody, to this afternoon's meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We're going into public session this afternoon for our first week back after the recess. As per normal, we're in a virtual setting here today, and we're fully quorate. We're being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings, of course, will be published as usual. Apart from the usual adaptations for being in a virtual setting, our Standing Order requirements remain exactly in place. We've got apologies today from Samuel Kurtz, our regular member, but we're delighted to have Paul joining us today as a substitute. Paul, you're very welcome indeed. Thank you for coming along today.

Thank you very much.

If I can do the normal and just ask Members to make sure that their mobile devices are switched to silent. We're operating through Welsh and English today and we have the normal interpretation available and, of course, the sound operator will help with the microphones; there's no need to mute or unmute yourselves. 

With that, we'll go straight on to our first substantive item, which is item No. 2, the instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Orders 21.2 or 21.3. The first of these is in your pack under paper 1. We have a draft report on a made negative resolution instrument, SL(6)451, the Education (Student Finance) (Amounts) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024. This is item 2.1 there in your packs. So, these regulations amend the existing student support regulations to adjust the amounts of financial support for undergraduate and postgraduate doctoral students in line with established policy. The student support rates are adjusted in line with the forecast value of the national living wage and the forecast rate of inflation. We have no identified reporting points by our lawyers. Colleagues, are we happy to agree that report? We are. Thank you. There was only one item in that section today.

So, we'll go straight on to item No. 3, which is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under those Standing Orders 21.2 or 21.3. The first of these, under item 3.1, is a made negative resolution instrument, SL(6)450, the Education Workforce Council (Main Functions) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. In your packs, under paper 2, there's a draft report. So, these regulations make minor grammatical amendments to the principal Education Workforce Council (Main Functions) (Wales) Regulations 2015, as well as substituting a new definition of 'registered person member' in the register maintained by the council. Now, I don't think we've had a Welsh Government response, unless our legal adviser is going to update us now, but our lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. Kate, can I come to you?

Thank you, yes. The technical reporting point notes that text that's been inserted into the 2015 regulations has failed to use the appropriate defined term, and so we've asked the Welsh Government to explain this discrepancy, and we are still waiting for their response.

Thank you, Kate. Are there any other observations, colleagues, or are we happy to note that reporting point? We are. Thank you. Thank you very much, Kate.

We'll go on to the next item in this part of the agenda, then, item 3.2, and it's the only other one in this section. This is SL(6)453, the Official Controls (Import of High-Risk Food and Feed of Non-Animal Origin) (Amendment of Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2019/1793) (Wales) Regulations 2024. Again, we have a draft report. These regulations broadly make changes to the list of food and feed commodities that are subject to enhanced controls on entry to Great Britain through the border control posts, as well as specifying the prescribed sampling and analysis methods regarding listeria in food. The list of food and feed commodities are contained in retained EU-imported food legislation, which the Welsh Ministers are required to review on a regular basis. So, these regulations apply in relation to Wales, and corresponding regulations will be made in England and Scotland. Now, I understand our lawyers have identified one technical reporting point, and, again, unless, Kate, you advise us otherwise, we haven't yet had a Welsh Government response. Kate.

The reporting point relates to defective drafting, in that one single entry in the table in Schedule 2 has been translated into Welsh when it should be in English, like the remainder of the entries in that table. We are still waiting for the Welsh Government's response. 

Thank you, Kate. Thank you for that. So, again, colleagues, are you happy with that reporting point? We are.

So, we'll go on, then, to the next item, item No. 4, which is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.7. We only have one item here in this section and it's item 4.1, SL(6)452, Separate Collection of Waste Materials for Recycling—A Code of Practice for Wales. We have a draft report there in our packs under paper No. 4. So, this code of practice is issued by the Welsh Ministers and it provides guidance on how to comply with the Waste Separation Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2023. The Welsh Ministers first laid a version of this code on 4 December 2023, which was considered by our committee on 8 January 2024. Our report then raised a number of reporting points, and on this our lawyers have identified one reporting point under Standing Order 21.7. Kate, over to you again, and, again, unless you advise us otherwise, we don't have a Welsh Government response yet.

The reporting point here is asking the Welsh Government to confirm that this code replaces the version that was laid on 4 December, because this has not been explained to the Senedd when the new version was laid, nor is it stated on the face of the code or on the Welsh Government website from which the code is accessed. We've also asked the Welsh Government how those who may have already downloaded this code in preparation for the coming into force of the new waste separation requirements will be made aware that the code has been updated, and we are still waiting for the Welsh Government's response.

That's great. Thank you very much for that, Kate. We can't make assumptions with these; we have to have it absolutely laid out within the regulations. So, thank you very much. Are we happy with those points, colleagues? We are. Thank you.

We go on, then, rapidly to item No. 5, which is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Orders 21.2 or 21.3 that we have previously considered. We have a couple of items to look at here. The first one, and it's in your packs, is item 5.1, with a corresponding report, paper No. 5, and paper No. 6, the Welsh Government's response. This is SL(6)447, the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Budget Motions and Designated Bodies) (Amendment) Order 2024. Our committee considered this instrument at our meeting on 5 February, and we laid our report that very day. So, I invite Members to note the Welsh Government response to the report that has been received. Do you have any observations on that, or are you happy to note it at this point? Happy to note it. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. No comments on this, Kate, for the moment? No. Okay.

Item 5.2, then—the other one in this section—is SL(6)448, the Non-Domestic Rating (Miscellaneous and Consequential Amendments to Secondary Legislation) (Wales) Regulations 2024, and in your packs as paper 7 is the report, and paper 8 is the Welsh Government response. Our committee looked at this instrument in our meeting on 29 January. We considered it and laid our report the very same day. So, I just invite, once again, Members to note the Welsh Government response that has been now received. Any comments on that? If not, we will note that.

We'll move on to item No. 6. So, under item No. 6, we go on to notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement, and the first item here is paper 9 that you have in your packs—item 6.1, correspondence from the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip in relation to a meeting of the safety, security and migration inter-ministerial group, which was scheduled for 5 February but was postponed. The Minister states that, and I quote,

'Official level conversations continue in the interim', 

and the Minister has committed to update us once a rescheduled date has been agreed. Colleagues, jump at me if you want to intervene on these, otherwise I'll note these for the record here in public.

Item 6.2, then, in the same section. I invite you to note the correspondence from the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism in relation to the first meeting of the culture and creative industries inter-ministerial group, which was due to take place on 8 February, but, since receiving this letter, Welsh Government officials have confirmed that this meeting has been postponed.

So, we go on to item No. 6.3, and I draw your attention to the correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd in relation to the Biocidal Products (Health and Safety) (Amendment and Transitional Provision etc.) Regulations 2024. The Minister tells us of her intention to consent to the UK Government making and laying these regulations by 5 March. The Minister states that, currently, legislation provides a power for the Secretary of State only to make regulations, but there is a consent requirement, and the Minister notes there is no policy divergence between the Welsh and UK Governments in this matter and that, under current legislation, there is no provision allowing the Welsh Ministers to legislate separately for Wales. So, a quite interesting response there.

Item 6.4, then. I draw your attention to note the correspondence from the Minister for Climate Change in relation to a meeting of the Interministerial Group for Net Zero, Energy and Climate Change, which was scheduled to take place on 6 February, and the Minister confirmed that, following the restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive, this meeting was postponed to allow

'full and meaningful engagement from all four governments.'

The Minister goes on to note that the meeting will now take place on 13 March, so it's good to see that it has been rearranged and rescheduled, and she anticipates the discussions will focus on behavioural change, industrial decarbonisation, and carbon capture, usage and storage.

Then, item 6.5. I draw your attention to the correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government. The Minister has written to us in relation to a meeting of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, which took place on 25 January in Edinburgh, and has provided also an overview of the topics discussed, and we note that the next meeting's expected to take place in the spring.

And then, item 6.6. We are invited to note the correspondence to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, informing us of her intention to consent to the UK Government making and laying the draft Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations 2024. These regulations implement provisions of the Windsor framework in respect of the movement of pets for non-commercial uses between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Minister's letter sets out the requirements in terms of what pet owners will need to do, such as applying for a pet travel document, microchipping and declaring that the pet animal will not subsequently be moved into the EU. The Minister states that she considers it appropriate for the instrument to apply to Wales as there is no policy divergence between the Welsh Government and UK Government on this matter. She adds that she considers that legislating separately for Wales would be neither the most appropriate way to give effect to the necessary changes nor a prudent use of Welsh Government resources, given other important priorities.

And then on to item 6.7. I draw your attention to the written statement by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, and to note this, in which she confirms that she visited Dublin on 25 and 26 January 2024 to attend a British-Irish Council ministerial meeting on drugs and alcohol.

And then, finally, I draw your attention to, and to note, the correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, in which he confirms he will be chairing the next meeting of the Interministerial Standing Committee, which is due to take place on 20 February—tomorrow. The Counsel General confirms that this will be the first meeting since the re-establishment of the Northern Ireland Executive and that he anticipates the meeting will provide an opportunity to discuss inter-governmental relations as a whole following the return of Northern Ireland Ministers, as well as UK legislation and community cohesion.

Colleagues, as normal, we can return to any of those in private session if we need to or if there's anything you want to raise.

Meanwhile, if you're happy, I'll go on to item 7, which is the papers to note.

If we begin, could I suggest we group the first two items, 7.1 and 7.2, because they are related? First of all, it's noting the correspondence from the Llywydd and the First Minister in relation to our report on our inquiry into UK-EU governance. And just to note, the Llywydd, as Chair of the Business Committee, has indeed responded to specific recommendations in the report in relation to the support provided to Members to enable them to engage directly with new institutions and stakeholders, and also on facilitating regular engagement with civil society organisations in Wales. The First Minister's letter sets out his response as well to the recommendations in the report for the Welsh Government. There are some interesting responses there, colleagues, and we will have a debate on this report this week, on Wednesday, as well, if anybody wants to contribute to it. And if you want to, we can return to this in private as well, because there are some interesting responses in there.

Item 7.3, then. We have in front of us correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to the Reform Bill Committee in relation to the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. The Counsel General's letter provides a response to the recommendations made by the Local Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales in its written evidence to the Reform Bill Committee. So, if you're happy to note that. 

And then under item 7.4, we're invited to note correspondence from the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to the Health and Social Care Committee. The Deputy Minister has provided information regarding the Welsh Government's substance misuse funding, including the withdrawal of funding for the Wales police schools programme. The Deputy Minister states that her officials will continue to work with stakeholders in policing to work through the implications of this withdrawal of funding. 

Under item 7.5, then, we are invited to note correspondence from the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee to both the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and the First Minister. This is in relation to an international agreement, the UNESCO Convention for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage, which we considered, indeed, at our last meeting on 5 February, and it is again on our agenda for today as well. The culture committee, just to note, has written to both the Secretary of State and the First Minister with requests for further information, and we will look to publish those responses when they are received. 

And then, item 7.6. We're invited to note the correspondence with the First Minister in relation to the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. Just to remind Members, you'll know that we've reported on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memoranda on this UK Government Bill and we laid our latest report on 26 January. The First Minister has responded to our letter of 31 January, where we asked for further information in relation to clause 114 of the Bill, which makes provision to have direct marketing for the purposes of democratic engagement, and how this might potentially impact on devolved Welsh elections. The First Minister tells us that his officials have spoken to their UK Government counterparts, who have advised that there are currently no plans to prepare regulations using this new power for devolved elections. He also states that he will inform us if this position changes. Again, colleagues, as we discussed this previously, if we want to return to this in private session, we can do that as well.

Can I suggest that we group several items here together because they're all related? There are four related items here, under items 7.7 through 7.10. It's various correspondence related to the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill, including the Government's response to three committee reports on that Bill. That includes our report, the Finance Committee's report and that of the Local Government and Housing Committee. Are you how happy to note those together? Yes. Okay.

And then, item 7.11. Sorry, there's a lot of correspondence as we come back after just one week away. It's inviting us to note the written statement and correspondence from the Minister for Health and Social Services. This is quite interesting. The Welsh Government has launched a consultation on changes to the 'Putting Things Right' process and amendments to the National Health Service (Concerns, Complaints and Redress Arrangements) (Wales) Regulations 2011. The reason that's quite interesting, colleagues, is because the Minister has seen fit to write to us to notify us of that, which we welcome; it's quite interesting. The consultation opened last week and it closes on 6 May.

And then, item 7.12. We're invited to note the written statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution in relation to the UK Government's first statutory report to Parliament under the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023, covering the period between June and December 2023. Just to note for Members, the UK Government is proposing to reform up to 197 pieces of assimilated law in 2024-25 and 785 of them in 2025-2026. The committee has been monitoring the Welsh Ministers' decisions to consent to the UK Government making regulations in devolved areas under the Act. The Counsel General states that he welcomes non-statutory commitments UK Ministers have made to seek agreement from Welsh Ministers to the use of powers in the Act where they have an impact in devolved areas. He adds that he hopes that commitments not to take further powers or to override devolved competence are respected throughout the time that the powers in the Act are available to the UK Government.

On to the last few items here, colleagues, then. Under item 7.13, we have correspondence from Sam Rowlands MS, the Member in charge of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill. Sam has written in response to a request by Adam on our committee to provide examples of legislative provisions that compel certain elements to be included in guidance. We're grateful to Sam for that correspondence and follow-up on his appearance here in front of our committee.

Under item 7.14, we're invited to note the correspondence from the First Minister in relation to the agreement under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the Convention and Sustainable Use of Marine Biological Diversity of Areas Beyond National Jurisdiction. The First Minister confirms to us that UK Ministers wrote to the Minister for Climate Change to notify her about the agreement in September 2023 and the Minister was asked to consider any implications of the treaty on the Welsh marine zone. However, the First Minister states that no further inter-ministerial correspondence has been received about this matter, and it is not clear at this stage if the UK Government has progressed this matter any further. The First Minister also confirms that Welsh Government officials are considering the policy requirement for legislation, as it is unlikely that any proposals within the areas beyond national jurisdiction would have any impact on the Welsh marine protected area network.

And finally in this section, item 7.15. We're invited to note correspondence from the Minister for Climate Change, in which she confirms that the Packaging Waste (Data Collection and Reporting) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024, shortly to be laid before the Senedd, fall under the scope of the resources and waste common framework.

So, colleagues, that was a bit of a gallop there through a lot of correspondence and items to note, but we can return to any in private session.

That does bring us now to item 8, which is our normal motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, so we can go into private session, where we've got quite a bit of business to get through. Are you happy to go into private session, colleagues? You are. If I can ask our clerks, please, if you can take us into private.