National Assembly for Wales

Can I welcome everybody to this hybrid meeting of the Senedd Petitions Committee? As a reminder, this meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and a Record of Proceedings will be published as per usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting business in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place.

Item 1 on today's agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We have no apologies for today's meeting, and I welcome all Members to today's meeting. I remind committee members that they should note any declarations of interest either now or at the relevant point during today's proceedings. Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

I would like to declare that I'm a governor. 

Thank you. Noted. Any further declarations of interest from Members? Buffy Williams.

I'm also a school governor. 

Okay. Thank you, both, for that. They are both noted on the record.

That brings us to item 2 on the agenda, an evidence session for the petition, P-06-1358, 'Review the inadequate funding for Schools in Wales'. I welcome witnesses to today's session and perhaps I could ask you to introduce yourselves for the record, starting with Laurence.

Hi there. I'm Laurence Matuszczyk. I'm the chair of governors of the Merthyr Tydfil Governors Association and also chair of Edwardsville Primary School in Merthyr and also vice-chair of Troedyrhiw Primary School in Merthyr.

Hi. My name is David Blackwell. I'm the headteacher at St Richard Gwyn Catholic High School in Barry. I'm also the chair of the education budget forum for the Vale of Glamorgan.

I'm Martin Price. I'm chair of the Vale School Governors Association, and I'm a governor at St Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and St Illtyd's Catholic High School in Cardiff. 

Hi. I'm Matt Gilbert. I'm headteacher of Barry Island Primary School in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Great. Well, thank you all for being in front of us today and, of course, using the petitions process with interest as well. I think we'll jump straight to questions from Members, and an opportunity for you to say some brief introductory words, but first of all, we'll go to Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. My question will be through the medium of Welsh, if you're willing to put the translation headphones on. Dr Price, my first question is directed towards you, and I reiterate the thanks given by the Chair. And I'm carrying on asking these questions in English, aren't I, despite saying I was doing it in Welsh. Sorry.

Diolch. I'll respond in English, if that's okay. The reason we're here is because of the dire situation of funding for schools in Wales at the moment. I'm aware there's the cost-of-living crisis and there are constraints on Government in terms of its funding, but fundamentally what we're looking at—and I'm talking on behalf of eight or nine local authority governors' associations—is that currently, in order to run a school, there are regulations laid down by Welsh Government in terms of delivering a curriculum, in delivering a safe school, in how you deliver education on one side, and on the other side, you have the amount of money which is given to the school to actually run and provide that, and there is a mismatch in that at the moment. And there's a clear mismatch in the sense that not enough money is going into many schools, if not most schools in Wales, in order to deliver what their legal requirements are in terms of education—not to mention what they're trying to do in terms of imparting and developing the next generation of people who are going to work within Wales. And we want—. One of the issues we're looking at is trying to raise the profile of that, to raise the idea that when there are cuts made in education or not enough money is put into education, that has a real impact on individual learners and the people who have to actually implement and run the schools in Wales.

So, Matt will be talking a bit later, I hope, about what that means in a primary school in Barry Island, and David will be talking about what that means in a secondary school, and Laurence will be able to talk about what a governor has to do about the situation and the decisions that have to be made by governors, which are very difficult to do, in terms of taking away the things that ought to be individual children's rights within Wales.

Thank you, Dr Price, for those concise but informative introductory remarks. If I could just ask one follow-up question: due to your expertise, you're more than aware of the financial pressures on the Welsh Government and on all public bodies due to the cost-of-living crisis, inflation et cetera, but is it your evidence to us today that, due to the cut in real terms of the budget towards schools, they are certainly potentially in breach of their legal requirements towards students?

In that situation, what actually is happening is that schools are overspending their budgets. In the Vale of Glamorgan, for example, 40 per cent of the schools are posting deficit budgets; 18 of those schools are unable—. Normally, when a school posts a deficit budget, they're given the money by the Vale of Glamorgan, in this case, and they pay that back over three years. Eighteen schools in the Vale of Glamorgan, out of 50, are not able to put together a budget for the next three years that pays back the deficit for this year. And the indication is that next year will be worse and the year afterwards even worse. So, essentially, what schools are doing is cutting back to the bare minimum they need to do by law and then overspending.

Thank you, Dr Price.

Thank you, Rhys. We'll stay online, and I'll ask Buffy Williams to come in.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for joining us this afternoon. My question is for the headteachers on the panel. What's the situation in the schools that you each represent for the 2023-24 financial year, and what are the impacts on pupils and staff? I know you've just touched briefly on that with Rhys's question, but if you could just delve a little bit more into what you think the financial implications are going to be for your schools, I'd be really grateful.

Shall I do primary? The current situation, like Martin mentioned, is dire. I've had over 20 years in education and I've never experienced such difficulties with finance. I think that's brought home when you see these small little faces entering school, and you know they deserve an impeccable quality-based education.

At the minute, at my school in particular, we've managed to come to zero this financial year. However, depending on children coming in with—. We've got several children with complex medical challenges themselves, so to enable them to have provision and inclusivity of education, they have to have one-to-one support. That one-to-one support—. What we've found over many years now is that the complexity of children coming in with these significant needs is increasing—it's not decreasing—and we want to make sure that every child has got the equity to an education they rightly deserve. At the minute, this is impacting on additional staff being brought in. Unfortunately, schools do have to pull in on a supply basis. Again, having staff meetings and working with the governors—these are people, and you want to provide the opportunity for people to have a permanent contract. We cannot. Sometimes, it takes a while to get the right person in place for that child and the child's needs and to work with the families accordingly.

Talking to colleagues as well, the amount of stress that headteachers and also other teachers have to balance a budget knowing—. It's an incredible challenge at the moment, but in particular we have to set deficit budgets. Otherwise, we won't be able to provide those children with one-to-one support and we won't be able to ensure that the school buildings are safe. Another example in relation to the school buildings: headteachers are being forced to challenge to reduce their maintenance costs. This will have a long-term effect on other school-building programmes across the local authorities. It is frightening, but from a school perspective—. From an assembly to seeing children learn, we've got a duty of care for our Welsh future, and we want to make sure that these children are given the opportunities to improve.

If I relate to the focus on the Welsh Government and equality, we want to break the deprivation, to enable children to read and to write and to break that poverty gap. In some schools, they're working so hard setting up programmes so that food is available on the school site. The Welsh Government initiative has been valid to support those low-income families. But as it stands, the deficit situation is dire, and it's almost—. We are forced to be hand to mouth, and the cupboards are empty. We often chase other grants—for instance from Tesco, local companies, for £1,500 here and there—and sometimes we cannot get that because we're not deprived enough. And having grants come in should be a luxury, not a necessity, so we're trying to prop up constantly the education system. It is fearful. I've got colleagues out there who are really considering different thoughts and approaches, and we do need to be creative with finances, but it gets to a point where we cannot be creative anymore.

Mr Blackwell.

It's interesting. To reiterate what Matt said, really, I look at this from a couple of perspectives. When I first became a head, my agenda was personally to get a better amount of money for my own school, because it never felt like it was enough, and gradually, as I've moved into other roles, such as chairing a budget forum and doing this work with the governors association et cetera, I've realised that, actually, although my own school is at a real disadvantage, and that decisions are being made, really, to the detriment of children, that's actually, from a local authority perspective, a regional problem, and, actually, a national problem.

If you can indulge me, I'll answer that in two parts. Just to give you a little bit of perspective, in the last five years—and, sorry, I'm a mathematician and an economist, so I like numbers—my budget, my formula allocation, has increased by 20 per cent, which sounds really promising. However, my teacher costs, the cost of my teaching staff alone, even though that's only two more teachers in our five years due to having 30 more pupils, has increased by just under 34 per cent. And that has been the biggest proportion of our spending—staffing. And non-teaching staff costs have risen over 22 per cent. So, you can see, without even delving into things like energy costs and resources—. A 20 per cent rise in five years sounds lovely; in that period of time, I've got an extra 20 pupils [Correction: '30 pupils'], so, actually, my budget should increase, but, in real terms, it's taken a significant, significant hit. And when my teaching costs are 34 per cent, almost, more, for only two more teachers, that tells you there's a real problem. The flip side of that is the recruitment and retention crisis that we have in education, which is massive; we're seeing the quality of applicants alongside the number of applicants dramatically decreasing.

When we're interviewing for jobs, the concern I have is that there's not the field, because it's not the attractive job that it was five, 10, 20 years ago. That's not just down to money, and I think that's where there's a misconception in the public arena: it's not down to teacher wages, it's down to working conditions, and the challenges and complexities that children are bringing. The number of children I now have with additional learning needs, with behavioural, emotional and social difficulties, has grown exponentially, and, as a consequence, in that five-year period, I actually now have, to give you a perspective, a ratio of—. I used to have a ratio of one member of teaching staff to 16 pupils. That's now up to 1:18, and non-teaching has risen from 1:9 to 1:11. So, there are fewer people working in my school when the needs are greater than I've ever seen in the 23 to 24 years I've been working in schools.

Unfortunately, we seemed to get het up on the COVID years, and we moved on; that's completely not the case. The needs of the children coming into primary schools—. Fortunately, my wife works in a primary school, so I get the other end of the spectrum. The needs that they're coming with and then moving through into secondary schools—. For example, the reading age of our average child is two years lower now than it was five years ago, coming into secondary school. The only way we can address that is by trying to put in additional support, but I haven't got enough staff. I've got fewer staff. I've got fewer teaching assistants, I've got less additional learning needs support because we simply can't afford it. We have to put teachers in the classroom.

We've also seen things, to go into specifics—. We've had to cut our option columns at GCSE from four subjects down to three; we've taken out six subjects over those columns because we simply cannot staff them on the numbers being so low. It's a little bit different, obviously, to primary school, where, from a maths perspective, you have to have a teacher in every classroom. When we're trying to deliver a wide and varied curriculum at GCSE level and then into sixth form, you have to do that based on the Curriculum for Wales—rightly so, and it's right for our children—but, actually, we're reducing the breadth of the curriculum because of financial implications; there's no other reason. I can't deliver music when I've only got nine children picking that as an option subject, and those nine children then have to pick something they don't really want to do and that their expertise is not having the opportunity to grow in, and that's really sad, because that's getting increasingly worse.

We are increasing class sizes, full stop—we've had to—and, as I say, that brings problems in itself, because although research would say that a class size is not the determining factor of children's outcomes, it is a significant factor. If you have a class of 34 children, or a class of 30 or 28, that makes a difference to the time you can give to each individual child, in particular with their learning needs. So, there are a number of things that I have concerns with in school, and I could go on and on. I won't talk about my building—hopefully that will be a positive move in the next couple of months—but that's a real concern.

And just briefly, from a wider perspective, for me, it's the inequity of the formula that's being used to allocate funding. And when I look at schools—. I would share this, but I've looked at schools all across Wales, and, for example—I hope it's okay to share—my budget is around about £3.9 million. But that can literally vary dependent upon where I am in Wales with schools with a similar number of pupils who are eligible for free school meals. So, I tried to make similar comparators. But that can vary from being as low as £3.1 million to as high as £4.9 million, which is a 54 per cent variance. And for me, that's inequitable—that a child with additional learning needs or not, who's a free-school-meal child or not, is living in a bit of a postcode lottery. Because in certain parts of Wales, I would get an extra £1 million, almost, to run my school with exactly the same intake of children. In another part of Wales, I'd lose £800,000, and I think that tells us where our concern lies. I think the question at the beginning was, 'Why have we brought this to the committee?' Our hope is to get a more equitable education across Wales. I'm sorry I went on.

Chair, I do have an extra question—if I could quickly ask and go back to Matt, please.

Yes, of course.

I know you mentioned deprivation and cost of living when we just spoke. The extra-curricular provision that is provided by schools to support the cost of living and the level of deprivation in most communities these days is provided by the school. How much of an extra stress is this having on schools and your staff, and especially your teaching assistants, who are the ones who usually provide and run the extra-curricular provision, whether it's cost-of-living and food support, or just generally helping families? How much of an extra burden is this putting on schools? How much of an extra pressure is this for schools? Because, obviously, you have to open outside school hours, so that is extra gas, extra electricity and, sometimes, extra funding to pay staff to stay on.

It's all relative to the actual area within the school setting, but, say, for the extra-curricular, I'm so fortunate to work with such a talented team of individuals. They're always willing to give their time. It's not paid, by any means, but they'll run extra-curricular activities for all children from reception through to year 6. The giving of their time is impeccable. Again, there was a slight disadvantage, because we had to review budgets. So, we lost some staff last year, and that means there's fewer staff not only on site to support reading interventions, those booster programmes that those children do really need, but also the extra-curricular activities. There are several fewer clubs operational during that school time. We run a breakfast club that is funded, but again, there's the electricity costs and an increase in staff with the way we have to run it now, because additional pupils do need that provision. That's impacting on us significantly.

In relation to this, I'd like to add that, with the curriculum now, we were a pioneer school, working with the Welsh Government and colleagues; we were ahead of the game, as such. But what's happened now is—. For instance, on Friday, we had an INSET day. I can't afford to bring in a provider, an educational specialist. We had an in-house deputy head—she ran it. It was absolutely a superb job. It was all based on the new curriculum, ensuring it's broad and balanced, skill development. So, we're running it in-house. We're also fortunate to liaise with the local Welsh school, Ysgol Gymraeg Sant Baruc, just down the road. Again, we can't bring in professionals. And also to release teachers for training—there is no more money. So, we're fortunate that they are running a training session, so we can get ready for our Welsh language charter.

So, we're trying to play—well, I say 'play'—we're trying to make sure that we continue to strive to support all our learners, but, like I said before, it's hand to mouth. We're just so fortunate to work with such wonderful colleagues in other schools and other settings to support. But you see these children who are from deprived families—what else do they need? We've got a uniform resale shop. We gift uniforms. We have, unfortunately, reduced the number of school trips. For instance, it cost £240 to run a minibus of 10 children over to Cardiff City last week. But, sometimes, there are non-negotiables, and I won't want to stop spending on those children who deserve everything we can give them, because their home life is different. So, there are pressures, but that's why schools are facing deficit budgets, because otherwise—. If we were a business, we would have closed up years ago, but we're not a business, and that's where the added stress comes into mind.  

Thank you. Thank you, Chair. 

Diolch, Buffy. I've just got one follow-up to David, and then I'll bring Peredur in. In the scenario you gave us of your school, I think you said you had a £3.9 million budget, that there is a £3.1 million, and at the top of that scale there was a £4.9 million budget. And you talked about the inequity of the funding formula being used. Playing devil's advocate here, would the headteacher of the school with £4.9 million be telling us of the same experiences that you're facing? Are they slightly similar, or less? What would they say? Is it happy days for them?  

I don't know—I'm not in their shoes, unfortunately. But I think they would say similar things, I would imagine. I don't know their cases individually, but I'm sure that they have different pressures because of, maybe, the geographics of where they are, et cetera, that might be causing them some issues. When you're looking at more rural areas of Wales, perhaps the recruitment of staff is even more challenging and the transport is a bigger issue there, and so on. So, there are lots of other reasons. I think my point, really, is that we don't really need more money from one school to another; we just need a baseline, a base amount of money that's needed to educate children. I think that's what we've pushed for.

There's always going to be slight discrepancies. I think Matt mentioned earlier the grants, et cetera. There are so many grants and ways of getting different funding and hoops to jump through. It'd be a lot more straightforward if we had a set amount of money that was—. The minimum amount to educate a child, I think, is quite straightforward. No matter how big a school is, you're going to need a caretaker, whether you've got 100 or 500 children. There are certain things that I don't think are accounted for. And one of the reasons we brought the case forward is because of the census data being so old that's being used for the funding formula, and I think that is the 1991 census data, which is quite frightening, really, because I was still in school at that time, and probably in primary school. When you think of that, the country is very different to what it was—. I'm not even going to go into the number of years ago. So, I think that is a problem.

I don't doubt that other schools will be in different situations, and you have to manage it differently. The one word of caution is that some of that money will depend—. Those figures are the raw figures that are available on my local schools, but, actually, how that's allocated from one local authority to the school directly, and so on, varies. So, there will be some variance in the accuracy of how much a school gets, if you like. 

Yes. I can see Matt's nodding in agreement to that. Peredur, would you like to ask your supplementary and your question? 

Chair, you asked a question I was going to ask, because it was interrogating that differential and just understanding—. You've mentioned geographical, you've mentioned rural. Do you have a sense of trends? You were saying there that you know where your school is compared to one with £3.1 million, and compared to one with £4.9 million. Can you give us a flavour of where geographically they are, which would maybe help us understand what's going on, and whether or not it's political decisions, or whether or not it's geographical, rural, or if it's type of school as well? 

I think there are a couple of things, really. What distorts those figures slightly is whether the school has a sixth form or not. When they have a sixth form, there's a different funding formula for further education. So, that has some impact on the— 

Positive or negative? 

Usually negative, actually, if they have a sixth form, because of the way it's done. But it's much more consistent for sixth-form pupils; there are not the regional discrepancies that exist within the secondary and primary main funding formulas.

Rural tends to get—. More rural parts of Wales, traditional rural parts of Wales, tend to get a higher proportion in the allocation of the funding. That's generally what seems to be the case. But there are real inconsistencies. For example, my own school is 2 miles from Cardiff, at most, and the difference between the Vale and Cardiff is something like £450 per pupil per year. So, that I find really difficult to understand. And it's when you compare the regions that are similar—you might compare the Vale, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Bridgend, more city-wide regions—I think there are still massive inconsistencies in those areas, and that is what I have problems with.

My issue really is that I think, as a school, when you look at—. All schools are different, and they have different numbers of pupils, and so on, and so on, understandably, but actually, if you were to take a school that had 825 pupils with 13 per cent eligible for free school meals, as far as I'm concerned, no matter where you are in Wales, you should be getting the same amount of money to fund that school. Because, in reality, those children should get the same resources given to them to make it fair and equitable. When you then bring in the demographics and the transport and whether there are additional needs, I think that should be added on. But the base figure, I think, should be exactly the same, and a child from a deprived part of Barry, for example, should be getting the same amount of money invested in them, in them and their education, as a child in a deprived part of Powys, for example. And I think that's the bit that really hurts, as a headteacher, trying to provide the best you can for children. We just haven't got enough money.

Sorry, but going back to what was mentioned earlier, from the budget forum of the Vale, what we're looking at next year is that, in reality, probably 40-plus of the 55 schools in the Vale will be facing a significant deficit. Now, we've never had a deficit—or not for a long time. We literally cannot cut any more. If we have to cut staff, genuinely it would make the school unsafe to deliver, and we'd not be able to deliver our statutory requirements. I think 40 schools tells you there's not budget mismanagement. If you had two or three schools, I think you could argue there was.

The other point to make, catching on from Dave, is that, post 16, the funding is per pupil, is per learner. For Flying Start, it's per pupil. But between five and 16, it's on a very complicated funding formula between authorities and within authorities, which is not particularly transparent.

And going back to your point around sixth forms having a detrimental effect, in a way, on the budgets now, is that because the funding per pupil isn't enough and it needs topping up from general funds, if you like?

Yes. The problem with a school with a sixth form is, in order to run, particularly in some of the more rural parts of Wales where you've got very small classes, maybe, in order to maintain music or pure mathematics or whatever, then you need to use some of the teaching from lower down the school, and the budget, effectively, for doing that. So, the 11 to 16 subsidises the post 16.

Just before you ask your colleagues, we've got about 10 minutes left of this session, and I'm happy to extend that to go to 2.50 p.m., if colleagues are as well, but just to note that there is some more stuff we want to get through, so perhaps if we could be a bit more concise in both answers and questions as well. It's been useful.

What you're saying there and what we've just been discussing actually takes me on to a question Laurence has been raising there quietly in the corner, and talking about the headaches that governors have. Could you talk us through the impact on governing bodies of having to set deficit budgets and some, maybe, practical examples of what could be the issues?

Well, as I say, it's interlinked into all the factors that the others have said. So, in that respect, from a governor's perspective, obviously, we're overseeing these decisions that individual headteachers and schools are having to make, and it's highlighted exactly what the others have said. So, I can say, for example, in the last year, since this particular financial year has been quite troublesome—and I'd say Merthyr is no different from the others for the various reasons that the others have just stated—I've sat on a redundancy committee in order to release some learning support assistants. So, that is a problem.

Perhaps I'll share with you some information from a Merthyr perspective, and, as I say, obviously I'm part of that in terms of governors within schools. So, what we've got was—. Eighteen schools had a year-end balance higher than excess coming into this financial year. Then 14 of these schools, now, going forward—because there are 24 schools in Merthyr—are at risk of a deficit budget over the medium-term financial plan. So, what we're saying is that 14 of the 24 schools—that's 58 per cent—have projected deficit budgets. So, that means that four this year have got deficit budgets, 2023-24; seven are projected for the next financial year, 2024-25; and three then in 2025-26. So, that is depending, obviously, on how the finances pan out. But that shows, if you like, the level of decision making that's going to be hitting governors. And what I would say then—. So, what happened as a result of this financial year—they did an audit in order to understand what the implications were of this financial year—was that a reduction of a total of 45 posts took place in Merthyr: 17 teaching and 28 learning support assistants. The majority of those were from September 2023 to support the budgets and medium-term financial plans, because, obviously, that was the initial decision making in order to try to offset what was coming this year.

Decisions will have to be made this year now, obviously, in anticipation of the coming financial year, because the expectation is that it could get worse. So, on that basis then—as I say, remember, we had higher balances coming in—any reserves that were in place have now disappeared. So, there's no slack there at all, so similar to what everybody else is saying. We are seeing at first-hand exactly what that is. And just to iterate, from a governing body perspective, we might seem to be remote, but we're not.

The other thing that I would like to mention is the well-being of staff. So, obviously, we've got a duty of care for their well-being, and the others have said this before. It's obvious that the decision making that's happening by the senior leadership team, the teachers, et cetera, is causing them stress. I don't know, as the others haven't mentioned this, but what I've seen as well—I've been involved since the early 1990s as a governor—is that currently, at the moment, I'm seeing more sickness levels coming forward. I don't know whether it's just coincidence, but they tend to be stress and anxiety related, so I wonder whether, again, this is a factor because of what's going on here.

Also, from a governing body perspective, I'm seeing expectations from the local authority, et cetera, in terms of the staff being able to do much more in terms of delivery. So, as I say, I'm primary school in particular, so in early years—and exactly what the others have said, and I can quote some numbers—the additional learning needs, the significant needs have gone up. So, that means that our staff at the lower end have got to have certain skills now, much more than they had before in terms of being able to deal with those factors. So, that in itself then—. And I know that they say, 'Oh, we can offer training for staff to deal with the different—', whether it's speech and language, social, emotional, complex needs coming in, but they are significant. On the other side of the coin then—I've been having discussions, from a governor's point of view, with the local authority—is the additional learning provision going forward, because the finance for the additional learning provision comes out of the education budget from the borough. So, by default then, if that need is going up then that is taking money away from perhaps the core and then the expectation is that those people in the school are able to, somehow or other, deal with these extra needs.

So, these are the sorts of things that all governors, I suggest, will be looking at and trying to deal with, amongst other things.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Laurence. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. And thanks ever so much for coming in today. Obviously, just for the record, I used to be a school governor—I only recently stood down, actually, within the last two weeks. We've talked a lot about the financial implications and it's not just about receiving adequate funding, as you mentioned—as Laurence said then, it's about the pastoral care and it's about other things—but I'm conscious that the petition talks about inadequate funding. I just wanted to get some idea of what you would see, then, as adequate funding and what sort of levels you will be needing, I suppose. Is there more that the Welsh Government could be doing other than just providing more money, if that makes sense?

Dr Price, it's your petition.

The situation at the moment is that Welsh Government prescribes how a school should be run, what it should be doing and what sort of outputs it should have, and delivering a curriculum and how the curriculum is laid out and what you do with that, and about safeguarding and all the other things that happen within schools. And basically, what we're looking at is the idea of making sure that the schools get that amount of money in the first instance.

Some of the problem is that there isn't this—. As I've said before, there's a lack of transparency as to how schools' budgets are actually put together, from both the Government point of view and how much goes to a local authority, and then—. We're lucky in the Vale of Glamorgan, because our budget forum has been very transparent and the funding formula is regularly looked at and is very good. We haven't got a complaint against the Vale of Glamorgan in terms of the funding that's coming through to the schools in the Vale; it's not enough coming from Welsh Government. The way in which it's distributed is fair, equitable and transparent, but it's not fair and equitable everywhere. I think the inequity is that, yes, rural schools are going to need more transport; yes, schools with more free school meals are going to need more support, but the difference of 54 per cent, which David mentioned, is huge. A difference of 10 per cent or 15 per cent is fine, we can accept that, but 54 per cent sounds huge.

From our point of view, what we'd be looking at are equity and transparency, and, obviously, enough to actually deliver what the Government says we ought to be delivering. And I think, going back to Laurence's point and your question about governors and the role of governors, it is quite difficult to recruit governors for schools, and governors are resigning because they did not become governors to sack teachers or to sack learning support assistants to scrimp and save in order to make it work. I mean, just before we came in, Matt mentioned how much money he's got left to spend for teaching materials for the rest of the year. Do you want to tell them the number?

Is this in the public domain?

Go on.

Well, it's interesting, because I mentioned about the INSET day that we had on Friday. Through that INSET day, we obviously want to realign our literature books for the teaching of English and areas of grammar, but I've got £700 left for my teaching materials until the financial year end and I need £3,000 at least to get going on the books. So, you can see how we're reliant on other revenue streams and that's just for the basics. And it's really the basics. What I'm really concerned about is that we want children to be happy and to have a love of learning and also have the basics, to be literate and numerate and to forge ahead and be successful. It's a challenge at the minute with the funding.

In relation to the formula funding, there are two elements, there's one that—. If Welsh Government can review it, and it needs to be reviewed—. I think I'd be sacked on the spot if I continued to operate like in the 1991 census data and used that for my systems in school. It just wouldn't work, it wouldn't function. But even if we met the average within that formula, I would have an extra £180,000 a year on top of my budget, just because of the changes in that formula. It's not just me, myself and I, because every child, not only in Barry island primary, but across the whole of Wales, deserves what they truly deserve. Or the other option is a quicker—. I don't know, from the financial remit, could there be a potential to look at the ceiling and the floor elements of that funding formula? Because that would impact immediately, and also it would certainly support equity and children who do need it; we wouldn't be here otherwise.

I bring Peredur Owen Griffiths in.

On the ceiling and the floor, can you explain what you mean by that?

Yes. With the funding formula, we've heard, or I think everyone whose head was all over this has awareness, that, even if there was an uplift on that baseline—. Well, the Vale of Glamorgan is at the base completely, but, even if that was uplifted, that would have an instant impact on all schools directly. So, there'd be adjustments there, and then—. Because, again, I appreciate the formulas do take some time to navigate through.

Just to add to that, if you don't mind, the Welsh Government statistical bulletin that shares this information—when you look at the graph, the variance from the average budget expenditure per pupil goes from -£550 to the highest being around £700. So, you're talking about an over £1,250 variance from one local authority to another on the average amount of money spent per pupil—budgeted, not spent; budgeted to them. I think that's what Matt's referring to, is the—. And Newport being the lowest, they're £1,250, and that's the first time in a number of years, actually, it hasn't been the Vale, so we're quite pleased about that, but the lowest is £1,250. 

I think, coming back to the other point you made, not only has the basic funding formula got so many complexities in it, but then every element of grant funding has the same, so you almost get hit a number of times within those different parts. So, the deprivation hits on three or four levels. It's great that those in the most deprived areas are getting the funding they need, but when you take a school like my own, which is in the Vale, which is perceived as a relatively affluent area, actually, my school is not in a particularly affluent part of that, but we're tarred with the brush of the funding formula being, 'The Vale is an affluent area.' I think that is part of the problem as well, because, if my school was in a different region, it would be exactly the same, but get a different amount of money. Because the Vale is affluent as a whole, apparently—. I think that's one of the problems and all of those formulas—. I know I'm going on again, so—.

Okay. I am going to have to start drawing to a close now, but just to bring a final point, perhaps—Dr Price, it's your petition; I'll give you the floor to end. It's our intention as a committee to use this session to write to the Finance Committee and the education committee here in the Senedd, who are going through their own scrutiny of Welsh Government budgets. Is there anything that you wish to highlight that perhaps hasn't been raised by colleagues already? 

I think we've been able to air quite a lot of the problems that we've got. I hope you feel we've been justified in producing our petition and trying to raise the subject of this. I do feel that there isn't enough understanding among Members of the Senedd, and maybe the wider public, as to quite the parlous situation of schools in Wales. In effect, quite a proportion of schools in Wales are running on empty or, effectively, in private sector terms, are bankrupt.

I think you certainly have raised awareness, both to this committee, but to the Senedd, and it's quite clear from the number of signatures that you got for this petition as well—over 6,000 is no mean feat. So, that certainly emphasises the importance of this. As I say, we'll be using this session, which was of interest to Members—I know Members pushed for something to be done with your petition, which it has been. We'll be sending our thoughts to the Finance Committee—we have the Chair in front of us, actually—and the Children, Young People and Education Committee, as they go through their scrutiny of the budget. In the meantime, we will be sending you a transcript for factual accuracy, if you could check that. Of course, if you feel that you have missed the opportunity to say something, then please do write to us, and we can include it in our thinking and our proposed letter to those committees. But, for that, I will thank you all for your time. It was very informative, and, as an engineer, I enjoyed the facts and figures in particular. So, don't apologise for that.

Okay, I will have two move on to item 3 on today's agenda, with new petitions.

Item 3.1, P-06-1360, 'Build a simple slip-road between the M48 westbound and M4 eastbound at Rogiet'.

'Every time the Severn Bridge (M48 Crossing) is closed to traffic, the area including Chepstow, Caldicot, Magor with Undy and Newport East grind to a literal halt. This is, in broad terms, because the Chepstow traffic heading for England has to either circle around the minor roads past Caldicot and through Magor, or head directly down the M48 to M4 J23, turning around the roundabout en masse and preventing Newport and Magor traffic flowing out onto J23. This situation must, and can be, ended.'

There is additional information available to Members and members of the public on this petition, and it was submitted by Matthew Kimberly with 368 signatures in total. I'll invite Members to discuss this petition and any particular actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair, and I've got to admit, I agree wholeheartedly with the petitioner here, really. As someone who travels this section of road quite frequently, it is frustrating to be caught in the levels of traffic that are described, and elsewhere, with the Brynglas tunnels. And I've got to admit, I am frustrated by the Deputy Minister's response to the petition, to such an extent that I don't really know what more we can do as a committee. It's not a helpful response in terms of the roads review element there that the Welsh Government have brought in, and the Minister has said—well, the Deputy Minister—that he's not going to be doing anything. So, I don't really know what more we can do, other than maybe to pursue this at a constituency level, then, really. So, I think we might have to just explain the situation to the petitioner and then maybe close it.

Thank you, Joel. Any other comments from Members? No, they agree. On this occasion, we will have to thank the petitioner and close the petition, but there is, of course, every opportunity for local Members who represent the area to raise in other avenues.

Item 3.2, P-06-1364, 'Dentistry crisis in Wales. Ensure all adults and children have access to a dentist.'

'In October 2022 there was a 26-month waiting list to register with an NHS dentist and have a check-up in Wales. An open letter from the British Dental Association of NHS dentists criticised new contracts introduced by the Welsh Government, and called for much needed improvements and investments to ensure that everyone in Wales can access dental services. They raised concerns about many dentists leaving the NHS for private practice.'

They link to a BBC news article and finally say:

'Everyone should have access to dental care, regular check-ups and timely treatment.'

Again, there is additional information available, submitted by Allan Hudspeth with 639 signatures, and I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. I look to Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the petitioner for this very important petition. I was very sorry to hear that his dentist has left the NHS and the new NHS dentist is 79 miles away, which we can all agree is not acceptable. This is raised on a regular basis at Plenary and, from the top of my head, I can remember Gareth Davies, Jane Dodds and Cefin Campbell raising these issues in Plenary and the health Minister having to answer Cefin and Jane quite recently on this point. So, it is a matter that is being raised regularly on a cross-party basis. There was also recent scrutiny of this by the health committee last year and most of its recommendations were accepted by the Welsh Government. 

It's a very important petition, but I'm unsure what more this committee can do at the moment. So, it's my suggestion that we thank the petitioner and close the petition. 

[Inaudible.]—Rhys. I can see Members nodding in agreement. I sat on the Health and Social Care Committee inquiry about dentistry, and it was detailed work, and Jane Dodds joined us for the scrutiny session. And, as you said, we have reported there. Members do agree with your suggestion, so we thank the petitioner and we'll close the petition.

Item 3.3, P-06-1365, 'Re-open railway lines to connect the north and south of Wales'.

'Travelling between the North and the South of Wales is always a long journey, especially when using the railway. If a person is traveling between the Bangor and Cardiff, one has to go outside of Wales on rail to be able to complete the journey.

'Wales needs to be connected internally by rail. The plan to do this would be to reopen the Bangor - Afon-wen and Aberystwyth to Carmarthen lines, and integrating them with the Cambrian railway, and the line from Carmarthen on to Cardiff.'

There is additional information with some specifics from the petitioner. The petitioner is Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn, with a total of 12,936 signatures. And, to declare an interest, I think we all know Elfed. He's a keen petitioner in our process, and as someone who travels from north to south Wales every week—. But I will invite Members in to discuss this petition and take any actions they may wish to take. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Peredur, for your suggestion. I can see Members agree. Any further comments from Members? No. Members agree that we should review this once again, once the Welsh Government's response is in. Rail connectivity is discussed often in the Senedd Chamber, so we'll certainly look for that response with interest. And it was good to see Elfed and his twins after that full 206 miles over the week to promote this petition. So, well done to him.

Item 3.4, P-06-1366, 'Reinstate funding for Taf Valley Coaches 351 (Tenby to Pendine) and 352 (Tenby to Kilgetty) services'.

'Taf Valley Coaches have successfully ran the 351 and 352
services since June 2016. They have been supported from Welsh Government funding to cover financial short falls. Sadly, this funding is now being withdrawn, making the services financially unsustainable. Additionally, an open top double decker bus, from a large national bus operator, can operate between Tenby & Saundersfoot on a commercial basis every day from Easter to end of Summer, directly impacting on the small family local business.'

This was submitted by Melanie Mallin with 1,697 signatures. I'll bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. I'll go online to Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for submitting this petition. I'm pleased that the Deputy Minister has confirmed that these two routes will be considered closely by Transport for Wales as part of their discussions with the local authorities there. I'd like to keep this petition open, please, and write to the Minister to request an update on the outcome of the discussions.

Okay, thank you, Buffy, for that. Do Members agree? Any further points? No. Okay.

Item 3.5, P-06-1368, 'The Welsh Government should take steps to save the Environmental Information Regulations in relation to Wales'.

'The pro bono student Environment Project of the School of Law and Politics, Cardiff University, has examined the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 and how they could be improved in Wales, producing a short report.

'However, if the REUL Bill passes, it will "sunset" all EU-derived subordinate legislation in 2023, including the 2004 Regulations.

'The UK would be in breach of the Aarhus Convention.

'The Welsh Government must use its powers to save the 2004 Regulations for Wales.'

There is additional information available for Members on this petition, which was submitted by Guy Linley-Adams, with 272 signatures in total. I'll now invite Members to discuss this particular petition and any actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious that the petitioners have submitted quite a detailed and technical report along with their petition, which raises a number of questions, which it would be good to put over to the Welsh Government to see their responses, really, and I was wondering if that's a possibility we could do. Also, I know there's a number of Senedd committees looking into similar, like the climate change committee and, I think, the justice committee as well, are looking into it, and I think it might be worth while flagging this petition with them as well to see if there's something they want to do.

Thank you, Joel. Any further comments from Members? Do Members agree? They do. Okay. So, we will write with the questions posed by the students of Cardiff University's School of Law and Politics to seek a response from the Minister responsible, and also share with the committees who are monitoring these regulations in their own committee work in the Senedd. We will seek to write to the Chairs of those committees and ask them to share with Members.

Item 3.6, P-06-1369, 'Use only Welsh names for places in Wales'.

'In a spirit of respect for Wales as its own nation with its own history and culture; and as a mark of acknowledgement concerning some of the cultural oppression that has historically been inflicted on Wales and her language and culture.

'English names might initially continue to be used by some out of habit but in all official avenues and in both spoken and written media, the original Welsh names for places in Wales should be used.'

There is further information available to Members on this petition, which was submitted by Mihangel ap Rhisiart, with 1,397 signatures. I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks, Rhys, for your comments there. Obviously, this is isn't the first time, as a committee, we've debated petitions like this, and I'm surprised, because normally when we debate similar petitions, it doesn't normally go into this level of detail. We normally just pass it on to the previous response that we've received. I'm conscious of when we last discussed this. I don't necessarily support this. I was on Rhondda Cynon Taf council's Welsh language steering committee back in 2011, where the report makes reference there, and a number of issues were raised in terms of having a panel of experts dictating to local communities, 'From now on, this is how you spell your village'. It raised a lot of issues. I confess, I'm a community councillor in Efail Isaf. It's still an ongoing issue there in terms of how you spell it—is it two words or is it one word? That's forever causing issues in the village there, because it means totally different things when you combine the words, and the fact that their opinions weren't taken into consideration still leaves a bitter taste, in many people's view there. So, that's why I can't support this top-down approach. Rhys made reference to Llanelli and Caernarfon. My own local town of Pontypridd was originally called Newbridge and, at some point in the past, they decided to call it Pontypridd, but the community did that, rather than it being dictated to them. So, those are my concerns there, really. So, I don't really support the crux of this petition. Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. That certainly is on the record, and long-standing on the record, from when we considered this last time. There was the suggestion from Rhys to write to the Welsh Language Commissioner. I'm conscious that Joel James perhaps doesn't support that, but I'm looking to other Members to see if they do support writing to the language commissioner, as suggested by Rhys. Peredur.

It's prudent to follow up on what happened in March 2022. Things have moved on. What has the commissioner done in the meantime? That's important to get an update on. Obviously, I disagree with Joel on this, so I would be in support of seeing the next step. It costs us nothing to take that next step, as it were.

Okay, and I can see, online, that Buffy Williams is nodding in agreement as well. Okay, so we'll seek an update from the Welsh Language Commissioner and consider this again, but the views of Joel James are very much noted for the record.

Item 3.7, P-06-1370, 'Save overnight minor injuries provision at Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny'.

'Aneurin Bevan University Health Board has set out plans to close its Minor Injuries Unit at Nevill Hall Hospital overnight. This will mean that between 1am and 7am in the entire health board area, there will be just one open Minor Injuries Unit—at the Royal Gwent Hospital in Newport.

'This change would significantly increase travel times for residents in Blaenau Gwent, Monmouthshire, Torfaen and parts of Caerphilly. The change would make the Royal Gwent and the Grange even busier.'

There is additional information, including the consultation about the proposal, included for Members and members of the public. This was submitted by the ex-council leader, Richard John, with 5,181 signatures in total. I'll bring Members in to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch. I'm on the record as asking quite a few questions on this because it's in my region. Nevill Hall and the Grange are, obviously, mentioned in this, but it does have a knock-on effect on other hospitals, and other hospitals within the region are included in the consultation. I've had a few answers from the Minister in the Chamber, but the consultation is still ongoing. It's been extended to 1 December. So, I would like to write to Aneurin Bevan health board to make them aware of this petition in particular, and ask them to use what's been given us here as part of their consultation response. I'd be interested in hearing the outcome of that consultation before we decide what to do with this petition.

Yes. Okay. Thank you for that. Members are content. Joel.

I know Richard, so, for want of a declaration, I suppose.

Okay. Noted on that. So, we will follow up by writing to the health board, to seek the points Peredur Owen Griffiths made, but to also seek the timescale of the decision-making process as well.

Item 3.8, P-06-1373, 'Stop Welsh Government Wasting £4million on Skyline private development Kilvey Hill, Swansea'.

'The plans for a skyline involve privatising a public open space for a project of very uncertain success. The shareholders of this private firm will benefit from this large injection of cash but there is a risk of major environmental damage with no guarantee of success in the long term.

'It means the loss of a much used local nature amenity. Better action: Use existing plans to conserve and enhance the biodiversity of this wild part of Swansea. A big cash grant for no certain benefit is unwise.'

There is additional information on this petition available to Members and members of the public. It was submitted by Neil Jones, with a total of 3,051 signatures. We have received additional comments from Neil Jones today and over the weekend. I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank Mr Jones for submitting this petition. I think that the Minister has made her position pretty clear on this subject, and therein it falls now to the planning authority. I wonder if we as a committee could write to the local authority and update them on the strength of feeling behind this petition, and also have an update on what they're doing on their end, and leave this petition open until we have that update.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Buffy, for that. I can see Members are content, and I think that, for the record, we should say that the petitioners, with regard to the Minister's response, do strongly challenge that. But, I can see Members agree with your course of action for this particular petition, so we'll certainly go ahead and do that.

Item 3.9, P-06-1375, 'Initiate an early senedd election'. This was submitted by Graham Bishop, with a total of 15,439 signatures. I will ask Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I recognise the strength of feeling behind this petition, and I'm conscious that it's gone well over the 10,000 mark for a debate, so automatically, I think, it should go to debate, especially given that it will allow Members an opportunity to discuss the range of things that are coming out of the Welsh Government at the moment, not just the 20 mph, which I think is what's caused it, but other issues as well. So, it is the 20 mph one there. So, I'd push that for debate, actually, yes.

Thank you. Any further comments from Members? Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Obviously, it's reached the threshold for consideration in a debate. Maybe we should be pausing and listening to what the Welsh Government have to say in response first, and noting that just the process behind initiating an early Senedd election would require a vote of 40 Members out of the 60 to actually pass that, which is something that probably wouldn't happen. So, I think hang fire on any debate, but obviously wait until we hear back from the Government. I'd imagine they would make that point, and unless the Government are behind calling for an early election, with 30 Members, then it's highly unlikely that it's going to happen.

There are two suggestions there. I will just say that we should perhaps wait for the response and then seek a committee view from all Members on this petition, once we've received that response, on whether we would ask the Business Committee for a debate. Just to make it clear, it has reached the 10,000 signatures threshold, where this committee considers items for debate, but it does not automatically trigger a debate. But can I seek agreement to wait for the Government response, from Members, before having a view on whether we should consider asking the Business Committee for a debate on this petition? Members are content. I'm conscious Joel James shares a different view, but I can see other Members are content. 

Moving on, then, to item 4, updates to previous petitions. There's just one on the agenda today, item 4.1, P-06-1356, 'Introduce comprehensive safety measures at the A477 "Fingerpost" junction'. It was submitted by Elliott Morrison, with 10,310 signatures in total. I visited the site, as we agreed in a previous committee. I met with the local Member, Sam Kurtz, at the site, with campaigners, local councillors, and representatives from Simon Hart's office too. We know there's been a number of fatalities at the site in recent years, and again, thoughts go out to those affected by that. I have met with them. We did write to the Business Committee to schedule a debate. I can confirm that the debate will take place in the Chamber on Wednesday 22 November, which also coincides with Road Safety Week as well, at which point we'll seek to raise the petitioners' views and the views of those who I met. I'm happy to have a conversation outside of this committee with Members to help inform their involvement in the debate on 22 November as well. 

Item 5 is a paper to note on P-06-1326, 'The Senedd should scrutinise the prepayment meter scandal in Wales'. We did receive a letter from Centrica, the parent company of British Gas. I think we've all viewed the letter and made comments on the letter, but we didn't publish it in the way we should have at the time. We are now doing this to complete the record, in preparation for our launch of the prepayment meter inquiry report. So, just to note that paper. Are Members content? They are.

That does conclude today's public business. We will go into private session shortly to discuss the prepayment inquiry report, which we hope to launch at the end of this month.

Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? I can see that they are. We will meet again on 27 November. We'll go into private to discuss the evidence we've heard and the inquiry report that I've mentioned. Thank you.