National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome, all, to today's Senedd Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Jenny Rathbone.

Our Period Proud Wales plan is a cross-Government plan to achieve period dignity and eliminate period poverty. The plan was published back in February this year, and, since then, progress has been made against all 10 actions, and we are committed to continuing to build on this.

Thank you very much. Of course, it's incredibly important that children and young people, and anyone on low incomes, have access to free period products, particularly when four in 10 households are regularly running out of money for essentials because of the cost-of-living crisis. So, I think we should all applaud the Welsh Government's investment—I think it's about £12 million—in Period Proud Wales since 2018. I'd just like to ask you what progress the Welsh Government is making year on year on reducing plastic in period products, because a lot of them do contain plastic, which is obviously horrendous for the environment. And what progress is being made on introducing sustainable products, rather than single use? For example, how would you encourage girls to use Mooncups once they become sexually active? It's not at all suitable for a nine-year-old, but, once they become sexually active, I would expect them to be encouraged to use Mooncups, because then these products are available all the time, rather than when they happen to be in school.

I thank Jenny Rathbone for her question. I know you're a very active campaigner and a passionate advocate in this area, and you're absolutely right around the need, more than ever, to make sure people have access to period products, particularly as communities and individuals are feeling the real pinch of the cost-of-living crisis that is still upon us. So, as a Government, we're obviously committed to getting that balance of accessibility and choice, but also very much committed to addressing those challenges posed by plastic pollution, as Jenny Rathbone set out, whether that's across Government in our work, or throughout the Period Proud Wales plan. And since we've brought in the grant, we have worked with local authorities to make sure that a certain percentage of the products they buy through the grant need to be reusable or plastic-free. And the plan itself does set out that vision of a country where a broader range of period products are in use, while limiting the negative environmental impacts as a consequence of that. So, we've increased that target year on year, in terms of reducing plastic pollution, but in terms of actually a drive to encourage that accessibility and that access of choice, there's a balance, isn't there, to ensure that choice of products available for the most appropriate audience or person, and that reusable or plastic-free products are there for those who need it or who feel able to need it as well. We will continue to build on that work, and I'm happy to keep Members updated as we actually continue to move towards that—not only making sure that people have access to the products that they need, when they need them, but they're done in a sustainable way as well.

I welcome the work that the Welsh Government's done on period poverty. One of the other challenges that many people in Wales face, unfortunately, is incontinence. There are roughly 150,000 people in Wales that suffer from incontinence. It's a hidden issue that many of us will not be aware of. But that means that they also face challenges when accessing public conveniences. Sometimes, they may not have a product on them that they need access to, and, very often in public conveniences, there aren't even bins that they can put their products into once they've been used. What action will the Welsh Government take in order to consider how it might be able to help address these challenges that so many people in Wales are struggling with?

The Member raises a really important point in terms of actually how we support people in Wales who may suffer from incontinence and maintain their dignity and enable them to live a fulfilling and healthy life. The Welsh Government has established an all-Wales continence task and finish group. The group will bring together clinicians from a variety of disciplines, along with, importantly, patient representatives, policy makers, and other stakeholders, to make sure we develop a comprehensive and a very much evidence-based plan for continence services and the support and access to those services, whether it's within community settings or, like you say, when you're out and about in the community as well. The output of that group will ensure that we make better use of the existing information that might be there to signpost people to high-quality support, education and resources, or even enabling people to benefit from the use of apps or websites, in order to know where they can get that support and assistance as well. Obviously, you'll be familiar that local authorities are legally required to produce a local toilet strategy and, in doing so, local authorities and also community settings should be encouraged to make sure that they engage with these representative groups to make sure, like you say, there are facilities on hand that people need and should expect as well.

Thank you to Jenny Rathbone for tabling this important question. I am fully supportive of the Welsh Government's vision. The fact that we are discussing period products so openly now is very positive. I'm so pleased to see pupils from ysgol Plasmawr here. I had a lively discussion with them earlier today on the importance of this issue and how policies work in their school.

One of the things that's been fed back to me is that it continues to be a postcode lottery in terms of accessing these products. It is dependent very often in terms of how a school approaches this issue, how a local community approaches it, and there are still cases where people, unfortunately, who need these products still can't access them. Can I ask, therefore, how do you continue to assess the success of this policy and this programme? And have you given any consideration to introducing legislation on this issue, as they have in Scotland? Are you continuing to have discussions with Scotland in terms of how it works in providing this right on a statutory basis rather than as part of an action plan?

Thank you for your question, Heledd Fychan, and a warm welcome to pupils from ysgol Plasmawr.

I imagine you'd have had some of the best conversations and ideas and input and challenges, actually, which I find I get as a Member of the Senedd from young people in schools and constituencies right across our country and long may they continue to have their voices heard. Even if they're not old enough to vote yet, they have every right to raise those things that concern them with us.

Just to pick up on the things you said about making sure that there is that parity of access and support in different locations, in different schools across Wales, that's something that we've been very conscious of as Government, in terms of making sure that we have an analysis and evidence in terms of how the Period Proud Wales plan and the period dignity grant funding is actually ensuring equity of provision in locations right across Wales. We have had a piece of evaluation work looking at that and I'm looking forward to looking at those results and actually seeing how we can ensure that there is that parity and ensure, actually, that other organisations can learn from others, where there is best practice as well. And, on the feedback, if you have any indirectly from the students you met today and from others in going about your work as a Member, I'd be more than happy for you to get in touch to feed that back so that we can consider that as part of the evaluation and how we build on this work, moving forward. Because, as you said, it's really important that, probably a decade ago, we wouldn't even have been talking about this in this place and I think it's really important that the Period Proud Wales plan—. I think the name is really important as well, because it's not something to be shy of or afraid to talk about. It happens to a significant part of the population and it's right that we discuss it and it's right that we take the action we can to support people.

Thank you for your question.

The Welsh Government continues to work collaboratively with partner organisations to deliver progress on a number of recommendations made by the committee. An excellent example of this has been our success, following the report’s publication, in securing access to Buvidal for Welsh women in both Eastwood Park and Styal prisons.

Diolch, Weinidog. Despite decades of discussion, the important report from the committee in May illustrated just how bad the justice system in Wales is for women, with 70 per cent of women serving sentences that are less than 12 months, and many being held in prison for only a few days, with scant regard for the terrible disruption that causes for them and their loved ones. One woman described her struggle with accommodation post prison as like being thrown to the sharks. It is little wonder that the reoffending rate within a year of release is at 56 per cent. I welcome the trial for the women's centre in Swansea and I look forward to hearing when that centre will open, but what discussion is the Minister having with others to ensure that the justice system does not continue to let down women and the people of Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, of course, the report itself highlights how devolved services, such as housing, mental health, substance misuse and employability, have a huge role to help women, to try to prevent them from entering the criminal justice system, and there's a great deal of work across the whole of the Welsh Government on this. I was very pleased indeed—and I'm sure you would have been, too, as a Member— to see the housing White Paper yesterday from the Minister for Climate Change, which actually says, 

'Changes to core duties

'Prevention activity at reception stage',

so that we actually start addressing this with our devolved services, and a change to the status of prisoners during their custodial sentence. That will make a huge difference to women. But what we need to do is look at alternatives, as I said, to prevent women coming into custody in the first place, including work with sentencers to raise awareness of the disruptive impact, as you say, of short custodial sentences for women. So, we are pleased that the residential women's centre pilot is going to go ahead. It's a vital alternative to custody for women in the Swansea and west Wales areas. But I just have to say that, despite all our effective partnership working, and our women's justice blueprint, only the devolution of justice will allow us to have a truly integrated approach to support women and girls in Wales.

Minister, I would be grateful if you could update us on the progress on recommendation 17. Homelessness remains one of the biggest causes of repeat offending. It's not right that we continue to turf former offenders out of the front doors without any suitable housing in place. Therefore, Minister, what discussions have you had with the Ministry of Justice and local authorities about providing suitable housing for former inmates, please?

Diolch yn fawr. That is a very important question and recommendation in the committee's report. I've just referred to the housing White Paper published yesterday. I think it's really important that we've now got an opportunity to look at this in terms of making our ambitions to make homelessness rare. The White Paper considers how Welsh women leaving prison—and that's the point of your question, and the recommendation, of course, of the committee—are all in England, and you will have visited, some of you, I know, on the committee, Eastwood Park and Styal. But they are returning to Wales, and they need to receive equal treatment to men in custody in Wales, in Welsh prisons. So, there's going to be greater clarity on the responsibility on local authorities towards people in the justice system, it will address issues within the current legislative framework, and there are clear expectations on housing needs, which should be considered on arrival into custody and when approaching release. That should, of course, improve outcomes, as well as continued investment in housing stock.

But I do go back to my first point in response to the original question: we want to prevent women coming into custody. When I visited HM Eastwood Park, I was so struck by the fact that the governor said, 'The women in this prison are themselves, in the main, victims', often of domestic abuse, often also experiencing substance misuse, and then they're separated from their children. We have got to get this right. We have got to get prevention, we've got to get the women's residential centre up and running, and see that as a vital alternative to custody for women across Wales.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Every child deserves a good start, but, according to Save the Children, many young children in Wales fall behind in their development before starting school. One in 10 are behind in language ability by age seven, and, for children living in poverty, this doubles to one in five. Two weeks ago, the Children's Commissioner for Wales strongly criticised the Welsh Government's plans to tackle child poverty in Wales, stating they lacked ambition, clarity and detail. She went on to say that the lack of detail on

'actions, timescales and deliverables'

means that there was no way of holding the Welsh Government to account, adding:

'We are in a time of crisis, we need a coherent robust child poverty strategy.

'It's a list of policy initiatives which doesn't really spell out what, how, when or who will actually deliver against those different policies in order to reduce and eradicate child poverty.'

The previous Children's Commissioner for Wales also stated, in 2019, that 

'Welsh Government has a Child Poverty Strategy...but at the moment there’s no clear plan',

and Welsh Government should write a new child poverty delivery plan focusing on 'concrete and measurable steps'. I've been here long enough, as you have, to remember when we had a similar debate more than a decade previously. Will the Welsh Government therefore commit to delivering not only a coherent, robust child poverty strategy, but one which does specifically spell out what, how, where, when and who will actually deliver?

Thank you very much. A crucial area of priority for me in terms of tackling child poverty, and, of course, in developing our child poverty strategy—. We have a commitment as you know—you were here when we passed the Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010—a duty to publish a report every three years on progress on achieving our child poverty objectives. And, of course, I did issue a progress report in December. 

So, this revised strategy has been based on a 12-week consultation. But what's most important is that we didn't just, from the top down, produce that draft strategy for consultation, we engaged, we co-constructed this with 3,300 children, young people, families and organisations. They have helped us develop this revised child poverty strategy that we consulted on. We gave grants to make sure that we reached out to black, Asian, minority ethnic people; parents, carers and children; as well as disabled children and young people. Young people told us what the differences would make in their lives.

So, we're committed to addressing this, working across the Welsh Government, and I think also taking the findings from the Welsh Centre for Public Policy. I hope that you will agree that when you see—and I will publish it in due course before the end of this calendar year—. We've consulted on five objectives, five priority areas of actions through the strategy. You will see the response that we've had—over a 150 responses—. We'll then deliver a strategy that will make a change. But at the end of the day the levers are, of course, tax and benefits and we have to work on the levers and powers and responsibilities we have. And I would say that rolling out free school meals, universal free school meals, with our co-operation agreement, has been absolutely vital in that first step of what we can do with our powers and resources, and having the most generous childcare offer in the UK as well. 

Thank you, but you still haven't told us whether that will include who, what, when, where, how, which is what the co-producers and consultees are asking for.

Disabled people in Wales are almost twice as likely as non-disabled people to live in a low-income household, and if there's also a disabled child the poverty rate is even higher. In England wheelchair users, including children, have accessed the personal wheelchair budgets, which are replacing the NHS wheelchair voucher scheme. The personal wheelchair budget is available to support people's choice of wheelchair, either with NHS-commissioned services or outside them. Personal wheelchair budgets enable mobility needs to be included in wider care planning and can support people to access a wider choice of wheelchair. The wheelchair budget enables the person to use that money towards the cost of the chair that they want, giving disabled people real voice, choice and control. But NHS Wales does not offer this and instead its own wheelchair service website states that:

'We will only issue equipment where there is an essential posture or mobility need. In some cases this may be different to what was expected',

effectively denying the voice, choice and control that disabled people in Wales should have, and denying or defying the social model of disability. 

So, given your responsibility for disability rights in Wales, what discussions have you had, or will you have with the Minister for Health and Social Services about implementing a similar policy to give disabled people in Wales real independence?

Thank you, Mark. That's a very important and pertinent question because, of course, I co-chair a disability rights taskforce. I co-chair it with Professor Debbie Foster and disabled people are the members of that taskforce, with our sector partners as well in local government, in the health service, in the third sector. So, one of the work streams in the disability rights taskforce is independent living, in terms of health and social care, as well as access to services. We've got working groups for travel, and children and young people. And these are all based on co-production; the voice, choice and control approach; and the social model of disability. But it's really a lot in terms of what are the priorities in terms of the rights of disabled people. So, clearly, the Minister for Health and Social Services has come to our disability rights—. All Ministers are engaging in delivering on this and I'll certainly get an update on the point that you raised.

Thank you. Of course, co-production is also about monitoring outcomes, agreeing what works well and agreeing what we need to do differently. Staying with the disability rights of wheelchair users, and I emphasise that I'm raising points I was asked to raise by parents of children who are wheelchair users, I'm sure the Minister would agree that a wheelchair user's chair is an essential piece of equipment to allow disabled people, including children, to be independent.

In Wales wheelchair services are split between north and south Wales. In a written answer to me, the health Minister confirmed that 82 per cent of children referred to wheelchair services in north Wales received their wheelchair within six months, but only 60 per cent of children referred to wheelchair services in south Wales received their wheelchair within six months. I've also been informed by families across the whole of Wales that they have to be referred back into the service when their child grows and requires a bigger chair, which adds to the length of time they're waiting, despite their children having a lifelong impairment that will always require a wheelchair.

Although children's wheelchairs are often bespoke, which will have an impact on the length of time required to manufacture a chair, 82 per cent of children in England who needed a wheelchair received one within four-and-a-half months. So, again, given your ministerial responsibility for disability rights, will you now ask the health Minister to take practical action to increase efficiency and reduce the waiting times for child wheelchair users in Wales? 

Well, I think I probably responded to that in answer to your second question. I will raise this issue with the Minister for Health and Social Services—obviously, it's within her portfolio responsibilities—but also I'll say that I welcome this evidence and I welcome the feedback that you give today, because this is about co-production and this is about outcomes, as you said. This is a disability rights taskforce that is driving the agenda. Of course, it is about recommendations for action in a very difficult financial climate that we're in as a result of the pressures from the lack of funding from the UK Government, but we will take this back and I thank you for that contribution.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, we've discussed many times the dangers of demonising marginal groups in society—that the language politicians use matters and can have the most dire of consequences. It was shameful, but, unfortunately, not by now shocking, to hear yet another example of the Tory Home Secretary's cynical use of divisive and xenophobic rhetoric to demonise and attack the rights of refugees and asylum seekers, with specific focus on LGBTQ+ and female asylum seekers.

We've seen the damaging consequences of the UK Government's discriminatory ideology and inappropriate policies in Llanelli. Yesterday the welcome news came that the Stradey Park Hotel will now no longer be used to house asylum seekers, but, just as with the Penally camp, the Home Office has yet again wreaked havoc and sowed division among a community, and have allowed far-right groups the opportunity to preach racist hatred. Minister, how will the Welsh Government hold the Home Secretary and the Westminster Government accountable for these repeated failures and their damaging and dangerous consequences for our communities?

I associate myself entirely with your statement and your points that you've made, in terms of the rise of this hostility, particularly from our Home Secretary, Suella Braverman. I was very pleased to meet with the 'HOPE not hate' movement recently, and I'm sure you have got, I know, in Llanelli—'HOPE not hate' groups have been active across Wales. Last week the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman—this is what 'HOPE not hate' said—

'gave one of the most inflammatory speeches by a Conservative MP since Enoch Powell’s infamous "Rivers of blood" speech in 1968.'

That's the measure of—. They wrote this before the Conservative conference; this was in response to her speech in New York to that American Enterprise Institute. I do want to say that the worst thing she said, in many ways, was her attack on the UN 1951 refugee convention. That is a touchstone of international law.

But we now have to work on how we can support the people of Llanelli. We've seen an unacceptable rise in levels of tension and violence, not just around the site of the hotel but across the community, stoked up by the far right. So, I just want to reassure you that I'm seeking urgent assurances from the Home Office that they'll take full responsibility and repair the damage caused by their decisions around Stradey Park. But just finally to say, Wales plays its full part in UK Government asylum and resettlement schemes. We continue to help people to rebuild their lives. The Home Office must now work with us on any future decisions across Wales. We must not see a repeat of what's happened in Llanelli. They didn't learn lessons from Penally either.

Diolch, Weinidog. I wholeheartedly agree and support the Government in that. Once again, the depth of child poverty and the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on already struggling households with children across Wales has been highlighted by a new national report. According to a Children in Wales report on its seventh annual child and family poverty survey, 28 per cent of children in Wales are living in poverty, with 95 per cent of practitioners and professionals stating that the situation is worse this year, compared to last year, if you can believe that. This reinforces the findings of many other recent reports on child poverty and we are already seeing a wider trend, whereby households containing young children particularly are more likely to be living in poverty. 

Many new parents will struggle with the financial pressures that come with having a baby and, of course, those pressures are even more acute now. So, at this time of huge financial pressure, we've heard nothing, since I asked you back in May of this year, about the delivery of your programme for government commitment to roll out baby bundles universally, following the successful pilot. The pilot back in early 2021 evidenced how baby bundles would enable families to meet those basic needs, and also, it is clear that it could be a gateway to accessing advice and support—a vital first contact in those crucial first 1,000 days in the child's life. You told me then, Minister, that the aim was to procure and appoint a supplier to deliver this by the end of this year and project delivery would start during the spring of next year. So, could you tell me if the Welsh Government has begun the process of procuring a supplier for the baby bundle scheme and when will the roll-out actually begin?

Diolch yn fawr. Of course, investment in early years is absolutely crucial in terms of tackling child poverty. Again, I was very struck with the fact that we have kept our Flying Start scheme going and we've expanded it again in co-operation with Plaid Cymru. We expanded that targeted provision of childcare and all the support that goes with Flying Start. Gone years ago, with austerity in England, is Sure Start, and we built on Sure Start with our own Welsh Flying Start scheme. It's crucial that we invest in early years, and, of course, we're expanding that.

So, in terms of bwndeli babanod, the baby bundle, it's an aim, through our programme for government commitment, to be offering it to more families across Wales. We hope to have a roll-out of a programme of support next year, because it is about offering that opportunity to receive essential items. I mean, this is the start of a child's life, isn't it? We've had a pilot. We know that many organisations across Wales—foodbanks, food pantries, charities—are already playing their part in terms of trying to make the provision that families, parents and children need at that earlier stage in life.

Thank you very much for your very important question.

The numbers of people in debt to their energy companies and struggling to make ends meet is devastating. The situation in north and south Wales is exacerbated by high standing charges, an injustice that the UK Government and Ofgem must address urgently. 

Thank you for that response. There is grave unfairness in the fact that a home in north Wales, on average, pays £82 more per annum in standing charges, compared to similar homes in London. Now, that’s entirely unacceptable, not only because it punishes people who are on low incomes, but it also punishes people who are trying to reduce and cut back on their use of energy. But it’s also unfair, of course, because we produce so much energy in north Wales, we actually export energy. That is, there are people in the UK using energy produced in north Wales and we are paying higher standing charges for using the energy that we produce ourselves.

Can I ask you what discussions you’ve had as a Government with the UK Government, Ofgem and the energy companies to put an end to this injustice? And as there is an expectation that the weather will get colder over the next days and weeks, what are you doing to support people as they have to now turn the heating up and face the implications of that in terms of costs?

Diolch yn fawr. Well, I'm really grateful that you've raised this question; it was raised yesterday by Jack Sargeant, and the First Minister responded in full to this, very much acknowledging what you've said, that the north and south Wales standing charges are amongst the highest in Britain. As you say, it's a real injustice, and it's getting worse. And the awful thing is, in terms of prepayment meters, if there's a period of disconnection—and, obviously, that's been something that we've challenged, led by Jack Sargeant—they're actually, prepayment householders are actually unfairly charged for all the days when it's not possible to obtain a supply. How can anyone see that that is—? It's a cruel policy.

So, just to say that I've met not just with the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets about this—who say it's UK Government, but I've met with them; they can raise this and call for a change—I've met with energy suppliers. I'm meeting them again shortly as well, because the postcode lottery of standing charges must end. And I do think it was helpful—and the First Minister referred to the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee's findings—that they've actually, a cross-party group with Conservatives, also called for this to be addressed, in terms of the standing charges, which are so unfair. But the point of your question is, yes, we have to do what we can in terms of support for our families and households on the lowest incomes. Our Fuel Bank Foundation partnership is crucial. You will be aware of that; they work with our foodbanks, providing vouchers. Also, I think it's important that we, through the discretionary assistance fund, provide fuel for off-grid, particularly in rural communities, and, indeed, the Fuel Bank Foundation as well. But our advice services are crucial to make sure that people get the benefits that they're entitled to. And we know that a lot of people didn't get the benefits they were entitled to on tackling fuel poverty from the UK Government—20 million, I understand—we need to get that back. I met with the National Energy Action charity last week, and that's what they said to me, 'Can—?' We are calling for that, along with Martin Lewis and about 600 charities.

I'm pleased that the issue of fuel poverty in north Wales has been mentioned today. As a north Wales Member myself, I can certainly see and advocate the benefits of people having safe, warm and insulated homes. That's why I was particularly concerned to see the Welsh Government cut the Arbed scheme back in 2021, which ensured insulation and the use of solar panels, for example, to reduce fuel poverty and tackle inequalities. This black hole in funding has left my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd worse off by this Labour Government, who have seen staff redundancies and little clarification from Cardiff Bay on when this scheme will resume. So, can the Minister outline what discussions the Welsh Government have had collectively, and what discussions you are having with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the Arbed scheme and similar subsequential schemes, whether this will come to fruition in the future, and provide clarity for my constituents? Thank you.

Of course, you are fully aware, because many statements have been made by the Minister for Climate Change, and also engagement, about our new Warm Homes scheme, the successor to Nest, which, actually, has been very successful in delivering warm homes to households in need. But what's so important for your constituencies across the whole of Wales is that the Warm Homes programme is acting as our primary mechanism to tackle fuel poverty. It's going to also contribute to achieving a net-zero Wales by 2050, and enable that just transition, tackling fuel poverty and the climate emergency, which your Prime Minister has dumped as a result of his pulling back on those commitments to net zero. So, what's important is that you see that, through Warm Homes, we're going to—. This next stage is a whole-homes approach to home energy efficiency. I hope you will back that—I know the cross-party fuel poverty group do—because it's about tackling harder-to-treat homes, where the impact of fuel poverty—. That's the successor to Arbed. This is about making sure that we target those who need it most.

There is a clear need and challenge for the fire and rescue service to adapt, to broaden its role and to renew its focus on firefighter safety in order to sustain services and serve communities into the future. Our chief fire and rescue adviser has made important recommendations in these areas, and I expect our fire and rescue services to act on them in our collective interest.

Thank you for your answer, Deputy Minister. I was really concerned to read an account in WalesOnline of how policy changes relating to retained firefighters that had been made by South Wales Fire and Rescue Service are leading to, and I quote, an 'exodus' from these vital part-time roles. This follows on from an incident last year in Abercynon where a constituent of mine had to wait 21 agonising minutes for an engine to reach her home after a fire broke out. I've met with the Fire Brigades Union and am soon to meet with south Wales fire and rescue to seek assurances, but what discussions have you had about these policy changes, their impact on not just recruitment, but also retention, and what can be done to address any concerns?

I thank Vikki Howells for her question. I'll say, first of all, I'm aware of the fire that occurred in Abercynon last year, and, whilst this is an operational matter for South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, my thoughts are very much with the family involved and the impact that it had on them and the community as well. The Member raises a really important point around the long-term sustainability of the retained workforce, which so many of our communities in Wales are dependent upon. There are long-standing problems in recruiting and retaining on-call firefighters across the UK. I do continue to discuss this both with fire and rescue authorities and with the representative unions on a regular basis, including through the new forum I set up, a partnership forum for both representatives of the fire and rescue authorities themselves and for representatives of the workforce too.

The reasons for this challenge are multiple and complex, and they cover matters from zero-hour contracts to long distance commuting, and the way in which people have just changed and live their lives as well has an impact on the amount of time and the commitment that individuals must make to provide the necessary amount of hours of availability. Added to that is a decline in the number of incidents—which is a positive thing in terms of household fires and the impact it has on communities—a decline in the number of incidents that firefighters support also means there perhaps are fewer call-outs, so less opportunity to receive that payment and to make their job rewarding.

These are not problems that are unique to south Wales. There is a challenge for almost all fire and rescue services in the UK outside of major urban centres. So, the reassurance I give the Member is that we continue to have those discussions, both with the employers and with the workforce representatives, and, actually, one of the opportunities to provide that sustainability in the future is to move towards that broadened role for firefighters.

I'd like to declare that my brother-in-law is a firefighter in the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service. The Deputy Minister will be aware of the recent opportunity for members of the public in north Wales to be able to have their say on the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service's emergency cover review plans, and, of course, with any public consultation, it's important that people's views are seriously listened to. The Deputy Minister will also be aware that within those proposals are possible reductions in staffing levels at stations at Rhyl and at Deeside, and they seriously concern me. I appreciate, Deputy Minister, that you may say that any views on this and any decisions on this are down as an operational matter for the local fire and rescue service, but as the Deputy Minister I wonder at what point you would consider your role is to intervene, especially if you were to identify changes taking place in a fire and rescue service that seemed to put more people's lives in danger than currently happens.

I thank the Member for his question and interest in this. I know it's been something of, as I would expect, immense local interest over the past few weeks and couple of months, and I was pleased that the North Wales Fire and Rescue Authority responded to calls from the public and from the FBU to extend the consultation to cover after that summer holiday period where perhaps people weren't going to be as engaged, or perhaps were away and didn't have the time to fully respond. I know Members have worked hard right across this Chamber, myself included, to encourage people to respond to that consultation and—[Interruption.]

I recognise that any change is a challenge and that fire and rescue services are trying to respond to that parity of cover right across north-east Wales and north-west Wales as well. The Member just said it's an operational challenge for the fire and rescue authority, they are autonomous bodies that set their own budgets, and, as you will be well aware, are funded by their constituent local authorities. They make decisions about how their operational front-line services are planned and delivered. But I have met, during the course of the consultation, both with the fire rescue authority itself and with representatives of the FBU as well, and I would encourage them to work together to seek a solution that is sustainable, affordable and fair to its workforce and to all the people of north Wales.

I too responded to the consultation from the North Wales Fire and Rescue Authority on behalf of my constituents in Alyn and Deeside. I had particular concerns about the impact of the Deeside site with the three options presented by the fire authority and the effects on the wider community. Again, I understand through your answers both here today and previous answers that it is an operational matter for the North Wales Fire and Rescue Authority. You said in your last answer they should be seeking to work with the Fire Brigades Union to find a solution that is sustainable, but do you agree with me, Minister, that they should also be working with the FBU to strengthen the fire and rescue service and not weaken it?

I thank Jack Sargeant for his question and for his interest in this area, and I know that you too have met with the Fire Brigades Union, not just on this matter, but more broadly on some of those challenges facing both the service and those that provide the service. And when I did meet with representatives of the Fire Brigades Union from north Wales during the course of the consultation, one of the things I did touch on is that need to actually more broadly involve representatives of the workforce in terms of taking those operational decisions, and it very much aligns with what we’re trying to do in the future when that social partnership duty comes into force, which would apply to fire and rescue authorities, which absolutely recognises that workers are experts by experience, and some of those challenges that we do face because of the circumstances we find ourselves in—13 years of austerity, rising rates of inflation—that decisions are made within that context, but, actually, they can be made in partnership, working with the workforce, who actually will have really good ideas about actually how we can rise to those common challenges together.

Question 5 [OQ60039] is withdrawn. Question 6, Joel James.

The Veterans’ Commissioner for Wales is an independent appointment made by the UK Government and reporting to the Minister for Veterans' Affairs and the Secretary of State for Wales. His advocacy across Wales provides an important voice, including on veterans' matters where we have devolved responsibility.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response, and I share your thoughts regarding the important role that the Veterans’ Commissioner for Wales is doing in order to advocate for the armed forces community in Wales and to highlight at a national level the challenges Welsh veterans face post service, especially in terms of mental health provision and employment.

As you may recall, you welcomed the UK Government’s appointment of the commissioner, and I’m sure that everyone here is delighted at the positive engagement there is from the Welsh Government, but, with this in mind, Deputy Minister, working with the commissioner, what areas of support for veterans have you identified as missing or in need of additional resources? And given that one in 25 people in Wales have previously served in the armed forces, what assessment have you made of their continued contribution to Welsh society? Thank you.

I thank Joel James for his interest in this area, and I know support for our veterans in Wales is one of those areas where we can find common ground right across the Senedd Chamber and across communities as well. I very much value the commissioner’s input into veterans' matters in Wales, and he is an important advocate and addition to the veterans landscape here.

I last met with the commissioner when he attended our armed forces expert group on 27 September, and I have regular meetings actually about how we can respond to some of the concerns that he is raising, and actually how we can have those shared priorities, particularly when it comes to access to health, around GP accreditation, which we are building on—veterans-accredited GP surgeries—and also in terms of that support for transition, access to employment and other devolved services as well.

And you make the very important point, Joel James, in terms of the numbers of veterans in Wales, and the number of Welsh citizens who serve within the armed forces. We know that we provide, Wales provides, 7 per cent of the armed forces from 5 per cent of the population, and I know your own South Wales Central region is an area where the forces have always had a rather large footprint. And we’re working very closely with the commissioner on a range of issues, whether that’s things identified in the Etherton review and its importance for veterans in Wales, and I’m fully behind those ways of working. We’re working very closely to make sure that, when we find that common ground on those challenges, that we are working together. The veterans' commissioner has been positive about the work that we’re doing, but, as always, we recognise together that there is always more we can do to build upon that support as well.

The socially responsible procurement duty within the Act forms a key part of wider reform of procurement law in Wales. Alongside this duty, the UK Procurement Bill requires contracting authorities to proactively consider how to reduce or remove the specific barriers facing small and medium-sized enterprises when tendering for public sector contracts.

Thank you, Minister. That's good to hear. A common issue across Wales is that of payment or lack of payment to subcontractors. Larger, main contractors will often win the business from a local authority, for example, to deliver a housing development. They then subcontract that work out to local subcontractors, often sole traders or very small businesses. Subcontractors can then go without payment for their services, sometimes destroying their businesses in that process. They've done the work, but they've not been paid, because the main contractor has gone out of business. This is a significant issue that certainly does need to be addressed. Can you clarify, Minister, whether the statutory guidance on the socially responsible procurement aspect of the legislation address this issue that I've outlined? When would you envisage that we will no longer be in a position where local small businesses are out of pocket as a result of main contractors conducting work for local authorities going out of business?

I thank Russell George for his question. It's a really important area, and one where we know there have been many challenges. Many of the recommendations we had, before we legislated in Wales in the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, were on the need to legislate on procurement issues to tackle these many challenges and issues that you've raised in your question today. Just to touch on, perhaps, briefly, first, the Procurement Bill at a UK Government level, I know there's improved transparency in that legislation that will add to improved prompt-payment rules to help ensure suppliers in particular are paid on time, as 30-day payment terms will apply throughout the public sector supply chains, regardless of whether that is written into the contract.

But turning to our socially responsible procurement duty as part of the Welsh legislation, officials are now working to develop that statutory guidance and model construction clauses are part of that, to address those very challenges that you say exist, often, within those supply chains, and the supply chains that we know are particularly extensive and prevalent within certain sectors like construction. The plan is that these pieces of work are being developed in collaboration and consultation with stakeholders and social partners, to help those contracting authorities to develop strategies that are focused and sensitive to local needs, and to make sure we build in that proportionality to make sure that small and medium enterprises, smaller businesses in Wales, and Welsh-based businesses, are able to access those contracts and get the support and prompt payment that they need, building in improved transparency into the work that we're doing in Wales. But if the Member has any other specific concerns you'd like to raise, please do write to me and we can make sure they are considered as part of the development of the statutory guidance as well.

We respect the older people's commissioner's role as an independent voice and champion for older people, and work in partnership to progress her priorities, including ending the abuse of older people, protecting older people's rights, increasing take-up of pension credit, and creating an age-friendly Wales.

Thank you, Minister. Well, I would like to put on record my praise and thanks to Heléna Herklots for the excellent work she undertakes on behalf of our older persons here in Wales. Her extensive activities include improving support and services for older men, as well, experiencing domestic abuse; campaigning to improve access to public toilets after discovering that almost two thirds of people aged 60 plus in Wales find it difficult to access such facilities; and she has been working really hard to end ageism and age discrimination. In terms of the latter, I'm aware she provided you with a briefing on ways that you as a Government could tackle ageism in the workplace by maximising employment opportunities for older people. Ageism at work affects around 12 per cent of older workers in Wales, so there is an urgent need for this Welsh Government to be doing more to combat this. Could you clarify, Minister, which of the methods of tackling ageism that the commissioner has advised you are now moving forward with? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, and thank you also for acknowledging the important and independent role of the older people's commissioner. You've stated many of those achievements. I think what is important is that we work cross-Government with the older people's commissioner to address the issues that she raised, and particularly in relation to ageism at work, and employability with the Minister for Economy. Of course, this is something where it's not all devolved in terms of responsibilities in relation to employment, but it is where, for example, the disabled people's champions that we do employ have a real impact because they are disabled people championing older people and disabled people into work.

I think also just recognising the work that's been done jointly in terms of digital inclusion and what that means in terms of access to work and skills. So, the older people's commissioner sits on the digital inclusion and skills programme board. So, we are engaging with her on all these issues, particularly responding to ageism in the workplace.

We recognise that local post offices can provide a lifeline to people and small businesses across Wales, particularly in rural areas. Post offices provide access to cash and banking services where bank branches have closed, and they are often seen and serve as important community assets.

Thank you very much to the Deputy Minister for that answer. It's interesting that you note the use of banking services at post offices. Of course, we know that banks have been closing at a shocking rate over recent years. The latest one in my constituency is Barclays's announcement that it wants to close its Pwllheli branch. But, I've been in discussions with all the major banks, and, on each occasion, as you say, Deputy Minister, they say that customers can go to a post office, the closest one to them. But now, following the recommendations of the Financial Conduct Authority, there are restrictions on the amount of money that businesses can deposit into their bank accounts through the Post Office. This has a particularly negative effect on small, rural businesses, as it means that they must limit the amount of cash that they can take, or else need to travel long distances with lots of cash in their vehicles. It will also affect the viability of rural post offices. This, in turn, is naturally about to affect our rural economy. Have you had discussions with the FCA to bring this matter to their attention, and what support can you provide to ensure that post offices, which offer a lifeline to many communities, remain viable?

Thank you, Mabon ap Gwynfor. The Member makes an important point on banks and post offices, and I agree with him.

We recognise the role that, like you say, post offices play in communities, particularly when banks are closing, and we've all faced it in our own communities and the areas that we represent, and actually say, 'You can do those services within the Post Office.' I meet regularly with the Post Office and with representatives, but I'll certainly make a commitment today to take the points that you have raised today to my next meeting, follow them up and write back to you, if that's okay with you.

I thank the Deputy Minister and Minister.

The next item will be questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. The first question is from Jack Sargeant. 

Thank you for your question. We have a number of ongoing projects to build our understanding of the practical next steps towards the devolution of the justice functions we believe have a good chance of being taken forward by a future UK Government.

I'm grateful to the Cousel General for his answer. It was good to see you, Counsel General, at the weekend, speaking at the Labour conference, and particularly at the Hillsborough Law Now event yesterday—an extremely important event, I'm sure all Members will agree. Counsel General, I'm proud that Keir Starmer has given his support to introducing a Hillsborough law in the early part of his term, when hopefully an incoming Labour Government will be in Westminster. I'm also proud of his support regarding the recommendations of the Gordon Brown report, in particular those regarding the justice system. Now, whilst we wait for a UK Labour Government, and whilst we wait to end the 13 years of Tory chaos in Westminster, what steps can the Welsh Government take to further prepare for further devolution, including justice?

Well, first of all, can I thank you for the reference to Hillsborough? I attended the Hillsborough event along with, actually, a number of other campaign groups—those for veterans who had been exposed to nuclear testing and, indeed, others. And, of course, the point I actually made when I addressed them was that we do support a Hillsborough law, but in actual fact, the simplest way of resolving the Hillsborough law issue is just to extend legal aid to people who are in those tragic circumstances. That would dispense with the actual need for a Hillsborough law.

In terms of the preparation for the devolution of justice, the Minister for Social Justice Jane Hutt and I are working closely on the preparation of the mechanism by which we would assume responsibility for youth justice and for probation. That is work that is advanced, and it is an important part of the justice system that we are already engaged in, but want to be even further engaged in.

Just to say also, of course, that I did attend the Legal Wales conference last week, which was a most impressive conference. Two chief justices, including the new Lady Chief Justice Sue Carr, who spent three days in Wales, and came to the Senedd, in fact. I had a meeting with her, very much specifically talking about Welsh legal issues, and I think that was an important development. There was also the lecture by, of course, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd—the Hamlyn lecture the night before. I couldn't attend that, because I was engaged with the opening of a new, large legal practice that was opening in Wales. But he did make the point that for those who may not yet be convinced of the need for the devolution of justice, they should start actually putting the case and the reasons as to why, because it's clear to me that nearly everybody I deal with, who's engaged in the justice system, recognises that this is an important step forward. Can I also say one thing that I think is really important with Wales, as well, is that we are actually discussing the issue of justice in Wales? We are actually leading the way in discussing, in a way that has not been happening elsewhere.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, for your answer to Jack Sargeant's question. As you're aware, nearly a third of the recommendations in Lord Thomas's report from the Commission on Justice in Wales were directed towards the Welsh Government. It is fair to say that there isn't a convincing argument against the devolution of justice; we haven't heard it up to now, in any event. But, in my view, a conclusive argument for the devolution of justice would be that we in the Senedd have clear leadership, clear accountability, that we co-operate with others, and have successfully carried out reforms within our power. Could you then please update us on what recommendations that are dependent on the Welsh Government and the Senedd have been implemented from the Lord Thomas report? Diolch yn fawr.

Well, can I say that one of the most important recommendations and areas of the devolution of justice that we are spending a considerable amount of work on is in relation to the tribunals, which are part of the justice system that are also with us? And, of course, we are preparing the way for legislation in that area.

I've worked very, very closely with the newly established Law Council of Wales, which I think is a very, very important development. And I think what's also important in terms of development is the work that I'm doing that is engaging with the fact that nearly all the major bodies that are associated with the law, with justice, with the legal profession, are now having premises in Wales—the Solicitors Regulation Authority, the Legal Services Board, the Law Commission is having a presence. I've worked very, very closely on the issue of jurisdiction, which is something, again, that the Thomas commission raised very, very specifically. And of course I'm very pleased to see that the national committee of the Law Society of Wales are also doing work specifically on that.

I think the key areas of work that we are actually working on at the moment, though, of course, are the areas of probation and youth justice; those are areas that were identified. The other area, of course, that was recommended was in terms of the issue of data disaggregation, and that is something I raise at every opportunity, particularly at the newly formed first meeting we've had of the Inter-Ministerial Group for Justice. I think it's very significant that we are now part of that inter-ministerial group on justice, and I think that in itself, whether intended or not, is a recognition of the way in which the justice system in Wales is changing. There are many other areas to work; I think the key areas, though, are focusing on real and practical change that can actually be made.

We've been clear that the current constitutional settlement is in need of reform. The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales is developing options for fundamental reform of the constitutional structures of the United Kingdom. We look forward to receiving the commission’s final report and hearing its conclusions in the early new year.

I have an unexpected supplementary, because my attention has been drawn to some of the coverage of the COVID inquiry. In the evidence given by Professor Ailsa Henderson of Edinburgh university, under questioning by inquiry counsel Andrew O'Connor—and this is relevant to the constitutional settlement—she points out the contrast between a series of letters and correspondence and approaches from First Ministers of the devolved nations to the UK Government at that time, calling for, as it's now being called colloquially, the regular, reliable rhythm of meetings—better communication, transparency, engagement across the UK. By contrast, and in response to those requests, it's highlighted that the three Secretaries of State of the UK Government cautioned that regular meetings wouldn't mean, of course, that there'd be total agreement, but, furthermore, that regular meetings could be a 'potential federalist Trojan horse'. This is in the midst of a pandemic, seeking greater communication. Professor Henderson commented:

'This is the most remarkable document I have read in a number of years.'

'It’s clear that there was a desire to structure intergovernmental relations for ad hominem reasons, so there’s a clear effort to control or handle one of the First Ministers in particular.'

I suspect that's a reference to the Scotland First Minister at the time. The professor said:

'There is a fear of federalism, there is a fear of leaks, there is a perceived kind of venality or self-serving nature to the motives of the devolved administrations, and never a reflection that this might also be true for all actors, and no real expression...that it might improve decision-making if more voices from more parts of the UK were included in the decision-making.'

From a constitutional point of view, that is fascinating. Counsel General, could I ask you what your reflections are on hearing that evidence being given, and whether things can improve from what we've seen displayed, in the height of a pandemic?

Can I first of all say I probably don't want to start a commentary on evidence that is coming through the inquiry that will be pursued, and when there will be other evidence that is coming through? But can I say, just in the nature of the examination of evidence and documents, and so on, that are coming through, I think what it does show is the importance of having a UK inquiry? Because I think, otherwise, we would not be seeing this sort of evidence and these sorts of documents within that collective environment, and being able to analyse them in that way. So I think that is something that is very important that has happened.

It is certainly the case that, throughout the COVID period, the issue of meetings, evidence, planned meetings, advance information and engagement was something that was raised consistently. I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment on that further, other than, of course, in terms of general inter-governmental relations. I think some of those issues do actually arise as well in terms of our engagement on legislation and the process in which legislation is carried through, and the concerns that have been discussed here on many occasions as to why that may be.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. What assessment has the Minister made of public support for the Welsh Government's plans for Senedd reform?

Can I firstly say that the Welsh Government's plans for Senedd reform are in fact the Senedd's plans for reform? As I've explained in scrutiny sessions, and also in this Chamber on many occasions, this is not a Government Bill. It would be inappropriate for it to be a Government Bill. It is legislation that is coming from the Senedd itself, and my job is to convert the recommendations of the special purpose committee into legislation that is workable, effective and within competence.

Good try, Minister, but everybody knows that the deal that was struck between the former leader of Plaid Cymru and the First Minister was what gave rise to the recommendations in the Senedd reform committee's report. That committee was hijacked, frankly, by that agreement and forced to deliver the recommendations in their report as a result. And of course, your legislation doesn't just deliver the recommendations of the First Minister and the former leader of Plaid Cymru, it also adds other issues that were not referred to in the Senedd reform committee's document to the list of things that you want to implement, for example four-year terms. So, no matter how hard you try to spin this as being some sort of thing that this Senedd has asked to be delivered, we know that, effectively, Labour Members and Plaid Cymru Members have all been whipped to support the dirty deal that was done behind closed doors.

I asked you specifically a question about what assessment you have made, as a Minister, of public support for Senedd reform, and I notice you didn't answer that question. And the reason you didn't answer that question is because I know, you know, and everybody in this room knows that any proposals for more politicians in this Senedd do not have widespread public support. People across Wales want more doctors, dentists, nurses and teachers; they don't want more politicians. And they want you to invest the £120 million that your own Government says will be the cost of the implementation of these reforms into our schools, hospitals, roads and public services. So, do you agree with me that, when proposing to increase the size of any parliament by a whopping 60 per cent, and making radical changes to the voting system, it is vital to have the express consent of the people? And if so, will you accept that we need a referendum on these proposals in order that they can be implemented?

The UK Government gave us very specific powers in the Wales Act 2017 to manage and to be able to reform our devolved electoral system. It put no provision in there in terms of referenda. I'm very aware also that the UK Government itself, when it has been making very substantial reforms—for example to the electoral system for the mayors, for the reduction of Members of Parliament, for constituency boundaries—has chosen not to see the need for referenda in these matters. These are matters that tend to be more governed by the issue of manifestos. We, of course, have, on the Labour side and the Plaid Cymru side, and, I think, on the Liberal Democrat side as well, manifesto commitments. In actual fact, the UK Government, when it made its reforms, did them without any manifesto commitment. 

In terms of the issue of public support, a lot of these things often depend upon what question you ask. If you say to people, 'Do you want better democracy? Do you want more accountable government? Do you want better scrutiny?', then the answer to that, I'm sure, is inevitably 'yes', and the way that we can actually achieve that is by actually improving this place and by ensuring that it has the capacity to deliver those things that people actually want.

I note your concerns, of course, about cost, and of course, this would be less than one tenth of a per cent of the budget. I note, of course, that when it came to the issue of ID cards, which have merely had the effect of preventing people from being able to vote, which cost, in fact, around about £120 million, I understand, to implement, your side was extremely in favour of that. So, here we are investing in improving our democracy, yet you made no quibbles whatsoever about substantial amounts of money being invested to actually undermine democracy.

I notice your concern about whips. In terms of the special purpose committee, the conclusions it has and so on, as far as I'm concerned, that's not a relevant matter to me, because, as I said, my function is to convert the wishes of the Senedd through that committee, which was debated and which was set up by this Senedd. So, my mandate is not to actually go behind those recommendations, because to do that would undermine the whole point about it being a Senedd committee.

I'll just make one final comment, because some of your comments were pejorative. I will say that whatever reforms come through when the Senedd does vote will require a two-thirds majority. I'm glad to see that you don't approve of Members being whipped; I'm sure you'll pass that message along to some of your Members when the next mandate comes from Conservative head office. 

As the chief whip, you would expect me to fully support the disciplines that are necessary in a Parliament. Of course, on such important matters, there is, sometimes, a need to be able to have a free vote. I know that there are Members on your own benches who are very uncomfortable with the Welsh Government's proposals for Senedd reform, and I hope very much that they will be allowed to express their views and, more importantly, the views of their constituents when it comes to these matters, who I know are overwhelmingly opposed to these plans.

You mention as a sort of shield against my allegations that there isn't public support that your plans have had the endorsement because they've been in your manifesto and Plaid's manifesto, but, of course, we know that that isn't the case. There were no specifics in those manifestos about the change to the voting system, about the number of additional MSs either, or the method of their election. You say that these reforms are going to make the Senedd more accountable to the public, but we know that you're severing the link in terms of direct accountability of individual Members to the electorates that they serve, and, actually, transferring the powers from the people who vote for us to political parties to determine who is elected. 

So, I ask you again: if you are so convinced that there is public support, then what do you have to fear from a referendum? We know that there are going to be at least two opportunities in the next 12 months, probably, where the people of Wales will go to the polls as a nation. They are two opportunities where there could be a referendum alongside those polls in order to make sure that there's an efficient way to get a decision from the public on these specific reforms. So, I ask you: will you provide that opportunity at one of those polling opportunities in the next 12 months, two of which will arrive?  

We are a parliamentary democracy. We work on the basis of putting manifestos to the people. The people endorse those manifestos. And I think the people expect us to carry through those manifestos and deliver on the promises that we have made. I don't think the Member is actually really interested in a referendum at all. I think he just sees that if it's delayed sufficiently, maybe there's a possibility that legislation might not take place. 

Can I deal with two points that I meant to raise in my last answer, which were two additional items, namely the four-year term and residency? Just to say with regard to the four-year term, of course, that we only ever went to a five-year term because the coalition Government introduced the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. Up until then, it had always been four-year terms. The repeal of that legislation makes it a natural development that we go back to four-year terms, but, again, it is still a matter for the Senedd in terms of how they want to consider that. 

The issue of residency I think is just one that naturally flows there. And you're right, it is something that's been added in—is it appropriate or not that people who are in Wales, who make the laws of Wales, should actually live in Wales and be accountable to the people of Wales. It seems to me that that's a logical matter. Of course, you can test the water on that by putting in an amendment contrary to that, if you wish, when the matter comes to the floor of the Senedd. What I would say is happening within this Senedd at the moment is a movement in terms of constitutional reform to improve democracy and put forward proposals that are in the best interests of democracy for the people of Wales.  

It was remiss of me during that question session not to call the Member Darren Millar to order on his use of the term 'dirty deals'. I must say that deals are a part of our democratic working in this Senedd. Sometimes they are made between individual politicians, sometimes between political parties and the Welsh Government. Sometimes, they're made between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, sometimes between the Conservatives and the Welsh Government. None of those deals are dirty. They are deals, and they ensure that progress in our democracy continues. I should have called you to order. I do not expect deals to be referred to in that way in the future. 

I accept your ruling, Llywydd. 

Thank you, Darren Millar, for being so gracious in your acceptance, but I'm sure your comments will be on social media during the hours that follow. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

I'm grateful for your ruling, Llywydd, and for the Member's willingness to accept that. 

Yesterday, the First Minister confirmed your previous statement, Counsel General, that you as a Government are considering taking legal steps against the UK Government in terms of ensuring a fair allocation of public transport funding for Wales in light of the decision to cancel the extension of HS2 to Manchester. Can you give us a little more information in terms of the general basis? I'm not expecting you to set out all of the legal arguments, but the legal basis for that possible challenge, because of course the Barnett formula, unfortunately, is not statutory, is not in legislation, and I was under the impression that the inter-governmental agreement on finance was non-litigious. I might be wrong on that, but for the sake of transparency and to allow scrutiny, can you set out the possible basis for any legal steps?

Well, can I say I think it's been taken, to some extent, out of context? Because what I look at, what the First Minister looks at, what the Welsh Government looks at, are really all the options that are open, inter-governmental and others, in terms of steps that we need to take to preserve and to protect the interests of Wales, constitutional and in other ways, of course. I understand reference was made—I wasn’t here yesterday—to a written answer that I’d given, so it might just be worth repeating what that actually says. It says the decision to cancel, for example, Birmingham to Manchester HS2 makes the case even clearer that it is an England-only project. The Welsh Government is giving consideration to the options available to us to challenge the decision, including legal avenues, should the UK Government continue to classify it as an England-and-Wales project. However, if we cannot reach agreement through the inter-governmental arrangements, the dispute resolution processes that were published as part of the inter-governmental relations with you in 2022 are operational and open to us.

Can I say it’s the inter-governmental means that certainly are the most immediate way of trying to achieve an outcome that we all want, bearing in mind the very substantial change that has taken place? I can say the finance Minister, for example, is expecting to meet with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the next few weeks to discuss the matter, and if we can’t reach agreement through these arrangements, there is of course the dispute resolution process. They are operational, they are open to us. So, I think the first stage in raising a dispute is evidencing that all steps have actually been taken to exhaust pragmatic resolution. If that is unsuccessful, of course we will want to appraise the situation and look at what options may be open to us.

I understand the inter-governmental and the dispute resolution means of resolving this. What I'm not clear on—and I have to say I'm no clearer on—is what those potential legal avenues that you referred to could be.

With HS2, of course, last week we saw not just one u-turn, but two, didn't we? Because they didn't just cancel the Manchester link, they then actually, within 24 hours, cancelled the £36 billion alternative investment commitments that were no longer commitments, it seems, a day later. That kind of post-truth spin and duplicity is what is driving down levels of trust in democracy worldwide. Now, I had a remedy for that years ago in Westminster—the Elected Representatives (Prohibition of Deception) Bill—which was recently retabled by Liz Saville Roberts. I have to say there were few takers for it in Westminster then, and there probably won't be many in the future. I recently had confirmation from the Members' Research Service that it would be within competence of this Senedd to introduce a prohibition of deception Bill here for Senedd Members. Is that something that we could explore, Counsel General, in the context of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) (Wales) Bill, and if it was brought forward as an amendment, what would the Government's position be?

Well, I think any Bill that is within the competence of the Senedd is something that can be debated on the floor here through the individual debating processes that we have and the ability to take forward individual Members' legislation. In terms of what the position would be in respect of any legislation, well, I think that would depend very much on how it was drafted, what was in it, the issues around competence to it and how it would actually work. We don't close our minds, I think, to anything that might improve democratic operation.

You raised a number of points in respect of the recent comments, for example, made around HS2. Those are things that cause concern because, basically, what seems to have been the case is that, first, in a panic at the last minute, as HS2 is being cancelled as the Prime Minister goes all of the way to Manchester to tell Manchester he's going to cancel what was a major levelling-up commitment, they've, in desperation, basically, come forward with a whole series of proposals, almost like a shopping list of things. There's been a meeting—'Please give me a list'. It reminds me of the Yes, Minister thing, when the Prime Minister tells his advisers, 'I don't want to know the truth; I want to know something I can tell Parliament'. It's almost that, because the moment they're done, firstly, it turns out that none of them are properly worked out, there are no proper business plans and there's been no engagement with any of the bodies that would be involved in it. Then, some of them are suddenly being withdrawn, and then we're being told, 'Oh, really, it's just an illustrative description of the sorts of things that can be done'. Now, I think that is very, very poor politics—I think it's very, very poor, when you're telling a community that a major investment that would impact on the quality of life and the economy of their area is not going to happen, and I think that is something that will probably be rued.

But, in terms of the broader point, I think what you're concerned about is the lack of transparency and how that could be accommodated within the ethics of our parliamentary processes. I don't think it is something that is at all easy, because we have open, free and democratic debates, and what one person thinks is accurate, another person doesn't, et cetera. But, if you can come forward with workable proposals, I'm sure they will receive a reasonable audience and debate within this Senedd.

Thank you for your question. We are creating, via the Senedd reform legislation, a more effective Senedd, with a greater ability and capacity to hold the Welsh Government to account, which also reflects the huge changes to Wales’s devolution settlement since 1999. These actions will help make Wales a more democratic country.

Diolch. The case for Senedd expansion has always gone hand in hand with ensuring diverse and equal representation. It's been clear throughout the work of the expert panel and subsequent committees that this is instrumental to achieving better scrutiny, better policies and better legislation for the people of Wales, and the two pieces of planned legislation reflect this. I'm looking forward to taking part in the 'We belong here' event on Saturday 21 October, when women will be taking over the Senedd for an event designed to enthuse women to come into politics. But enthusiasm isn't enough. 

I can see that Janet Finch-Saunders is about to raise how crucial measures like job sharing will be to facilitate more women putting their names forward, so I'll concentrate instead on how the aims of the legislation will be delivered. In a statement in July, the First Minister said that the Government is

'committed to delivering the Special Purpose Committee’s recommendation in relation to encouraging political parties to publish diversity and inclusion strategies',

and that guidance would be available ahead of the next Senedd election to support and encourage parties to publish these strategies. Do you agree that this guidance should be published as soon as possible to prompt parties to act in good time, and has the Welsh Government considered an independent mechanism for monitoring parties' progress?

Thank you for those points, and they are all important points. I think they're all points where there's an interest, actually, across all political parties in this Senedd. Of course, one of the bodies that already has that particular function is the Electoral Commission, and they have a specific role with regard to Welsh elections. So, they are an important body and, of course, they do provide a lot of analyses and evidence in terms of all those particular issues.

You're right—the issue of gender balance is something that has featured very significantly in this Senedd, and I would say, in many ways, there has been a lot of achievement and a lot of progress that has been made. Of course, diversity is more than gender; it is also in respect of issues around disability and accessibility, and, of course, we do have the elections Bill, which is also going to deal with some of those issues and support. So, there are certain overlaps between, for example, the Senedd reform and the elections legislation that we're introducing. In terms of diversity guidance, I think what is clear is that we need to have that in place as promptly as is reasonably possible. We need to have these things in place also, though, in accordance with the Gould convention, which is that they should be in place six months at least ahead of the Senedd elections. Those are things where I'm very keen that we implement as much as we can, on everything that we can, not just in accordance with Gould, but ahead of that, because not only is it the legislation, it's also the conduct orders and it's also all the work that has to go on with the electoral registration offices, it's all the preparation of the evidence, the information, and so on, that needs to go out. And, of course, that is very much work in progress, and I know this will be the subject matter of further discussions as we proceed, and no doubt, possibly, in respect of further legislation that will be forthcoming.

Thank you for your question. The Bill provides scope for a committee of the Senedd to include ministerial roles in its consideration of job sharing in the Senedd. Job sharing, and its practical and legislative implications, needs to be considered in a holistic way, and the Bill provides a pathway to achieve this.

Thank you. I have to say quite candidly that I disagree that either an elected Member role or a ministerial role can be shared. I also find it rather insulting that you intend to take forward electoral arrangements that would see positive discrimination for women, because, in my book, we have three women here in our group who've achieved this on their own merit and, I would like to think, across this Chamber. So, I'll make that point.

Now, the Senedd will be aware that Ken Skates, who I have—[Interruption.]

I'd like the Member to finish her question, please—[Interruption.]

Yes, and I'm a real woman—[Interruption.]

I would like the Member to finish her question, Darren. Janet.

Thank you. The Senedd will be aware that Ken Skates, who I have much respect for, actually recently disclosed that he would still be in the Cabinet if job sharing was allowed, and I sometimes think that the Cabinet is worse off for not having him. Anyway, despite the case he put forward, I don't believe that job sharing should be any part of the electoral arrangements for this place, and certainly, when I have discussed this with members—members, as in constituents—they think the whole idea is undoable. A single Minister needs to be answerable—indeed, any single Member elected needs to be answerable and accountable. Of the 1,300 responses to a question on job sharing in this place, only 34 per cent agreed with the expert panel's recommendation, and 52 per cent disagreed. Now, it's—

You will need to ask your question now, Janet.

Yes, okay. Thanks. Residents want elected Members to be accountable. So, can you clarify, Counsel General, whether you now wish to job share, or if you agree with me that Members should adopt the principle that they only take on ministerial responsibilities if they feel able, and, as such, Part 1, section 7 of the Bill should actually be scrapped?

Could I try and thank the Member for that contribution, and I suppose the inclarity of the actual question itself? It started off with certain references to issues around job sharing and how that was positive discrimination. Well, job sharing could, in fact, be male and male; it is not necessarily a gender matter. But, can I also say that—and I know I've repeated this many times—of course, there is no legislation, there is no legislation planned, there is no legislation that's going to be coming before the Senedd that will be seeking to implement job sharing? What there is is legislation that will facilitate, in the next Senedd, a debate. How that Senedd chooses to debate that, what it wishes to include, what it wishes to explore and to analyse—whether it is workable, whether it is not workable, at what level it might be workable, what might be the benefits, what would be the disadvantages, what might be the constitutional implications for democratic institutions—. Effectively, the legislation facilitates the tabling of a motion to do two things. One is a review of the workability of the legislation, but, secondly, for the Llywydd to table a resolution to enable it to be debated in the Senedd. I find it difficult to understand why you would not actually want the ability to have that debated within the Senedd. It clearly is a matter of interest. Where it goes is going to be a matter for the Senedd, but not for the Government.

Thank you for that. I discuss a range of issues with the Minister for Climate Change through our regular meetings. Welsh Government committed to follow up on this work during two recent Senedd debates, in June and September. Officials have started considering next steps, including scoping out the full implications on other legislation.

Thank you very much. I'm pleased to hear that discussions are ongoing. You will fully understand, of course, that this is a contentious issue and a very emotional issue for very many people and many of the communities I represent in Mid and West Wales, and that control over this crucial resource is a cause of particular concern for them.

As was revealed earlier this year, the Welsh Government hasn't formally requested the devolution of full powers over water, as is allowed through section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017. That is a huge disappointment to so many people in Wales, because these powers are entirely crucial in ensuring that a fair price is paid for Welsh water, that it's a way of reducing water bills and cleaning up our rivers and seas. 

In June this year the Senedd passed a Plaid Cymru motion calling on the Welsh Government to request devolution of these powers. We are still waiting, even as Dŵr Cymru announces substantial price hikes. So, my question to the Minister today is this: what legal advice have you provided to the Minister for Climate Change on this and does this advice demonstrate any legal impediments to the immediate devolution of water powers? If so, what are they? And, finally, will you set out when you expect to see these powers devolved in full?

Thank you for the question and the analysis. The ongoing process of devolution means that we already have control over our water in Wales. That was achieved mainly through the 2017 Wales Act. The creation of Hafren Dyfrdwy in 2018 means that there are no longer any water companies operating mainly in England who also operate in Wales. So, in other words, the main purpose of the powers that you referred to, section 48(1) of the Wales Act, have already been delivered without the need to commence provision. But, nevertheless, we have committed to follow up on this work during the two recent Senedd debates that have already been referred to. Officials have begun the process of considering the next steps, including scoping the full implications on other legislation. So, any development that involves sourcing water from Wales would have to demonstrate economic, environmental and wider benefits for the people of Wales, as well as ensuring there is enough water for those that need it. Water companies wholly or mainly in Wales must follow the Welsh Government's guideline principles, and Welsh Ministers have a statutory role in the sign-off process for any business and development plans. There are, of course, the development of the water resource management plans. The companies obviously have an obligation to produce these plans. The water companies published their plans for 2024 for consultation between November 2022 and February 2023, in order to provide an opportunity to consider how the plans meet the demand and the requirement of Wales for the next 25 years.

The Welsh Government’s position is that HS2 provides no overall benefit to Wales and it should therefore attract Barnett formula consequential funding.

Thank you for that answer. My supplementary question follows on from a question by Adam Price earlier. Every party in the Senedd has called for Wales to receive our share of HS2 funding; after all, our taxes are going to pay for a project that will, in truth, enrich London further at the expense of Welsh communities—well, why break 800 years of tradition?

In his speech to the Labour conference yesterday, your leader Keir Starmer devoted an entire session to talking about Scotland. He made reference to Northern Ireland twice, but there was no mention at all of Wales in his speech, and when he, Keir Starmer, has mentioned HS2 in relation to Wales, he has rejected the idea of giving Wales its fair share. Do you share our disappointment here that Starmer has not committed to giving us the money that is due to Wales from HS2?

Well, of course there is a role for opposition, when it looks as though they're likely to come into Government, to be very cautious about the issues that they're going to present, particularly when they've not yet set out fully the manifestoes and so on. I am absolutely certain and convinced that Wales not only needs a UK Labour Government, but there are so many things that we want to do in Wales that relate to part of our devolved responsibilities, to our well-being, to our financial position, that can only be resolved with a Labour Government, and that's why it's so important that we have a Labour Government in Wales.

Can I just say in terms of that that we are also seeking through our own means to achieve an outcome? And I refer to the earlier answers that I gave—of course, the finance Minister is expected to meet with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury; those positions in respect of HS2 will be put. There are the options of the dispute resolution processes open to us, and we are basically going to put that particular case. That will be the most effective, the most efficient and the speediest way of actually achieving a Barnett consequential in respect of funding that is actually being incurred.

You are right, there was obviously a very significant focus on Scotland, but I think that is because within Scotland there had just been a rather significant by-election result for the Scottish Labour Party, and I think that was a rather natural reference and issue that was going to be raised at that particular conference. I'm sure we all welcome the new Member of Parliament for that particular constituency.

Thank you for that. The safe use of fireworks—and again, bonfire night is approaching—is an issue we take extremely seriously and we support tighter regulations to underpin their responsible use. Powers to regulate and control the use of fireworks remain with the UK Government.

Diolch, Cwnsler. You will be aware perhaps that two young boys in my region were seriously injured by fireworks that were set off in a park in Hengoed last week. Rhydian Guzvic, one of the parents of the boys, was quoted on the BBC saying that fireworks 'need tighter restrictions', and that

'Either you need a licence to buy them or a complete ban.'

Could I ask what discussions you as a Welsh Government have had or will have with the Westminster Government about limiting the sale of fireworks and, in consultation with emergency services, bring forward a ban on their use and their sale other than for professional displays? What assurances can you give people about any unintended consequences of any bans or restrictions? And finally, does the Welsh Government have a view on the proposals put forward by the British Fireworks Association, including a call for tougher sentencing for letting fireworks off in a public place I'm sure you'll join me in sending very best wishes to the families of those poor little boys who were so badly hurt last week.

Can I, first of all, just reflect those latter points? In the era I grew up in, a long time ago, the approach to fireworks was almost in a completely unregulated way, and there were quite horrific injuries, so it is of concern that we still have some of those injuries actually occurring. I think all our hearts go out to not only those families, to the children and the parents, for the concerns they have. I think the other concerns as well around fireworks, in terms of animal welfare—. We all are concerned about that in a way that wasn't the case many years ago as well.

One of the issues, of course, around fireworks is that it is a mostly reserved subject area. If tighter restrictions on firework sales and use are to be implemented, of course, they are within that reserved domain. There are some areas where we can work in. But, I mean, for example, some of the legislation that is not within our competence: the Fireworks Act 2003, the Fireworks Regulations 2004, the Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2015, Explosives Act 1875, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, the Consumer Protection Act 1987, and so on. Can I also say that I think all of us—? Many of us like fireworks, but we like them within a regulated environment—a community, safe environment. It is a tradition, and it is that, I think, that is the concern: the accessibility and the way in which they can be abused.

We've always been clear that we support tighter regulations to underpin the responsible use of fireworks and its implications for devolved matters. I mean, particularly, for example, our heath responsibilities, animal welfare, noise and—of course, indeed—air quality. The powers to restrict, as I've said, lie with the UK Government. The Fireworks Regulations 2004 prohibit the sale of excessively loud fireworks, and they banned the use of fireworks between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. except for bonfire night, when the cut-off is midnight, or New Year's Eve and Diwali and Chinese new year, where there are other exceptions.

I think we are all—. Again, I make this as a completely non-party political point: this is something, I think, across all parties we're concerned about—the injury and the distress that can occur, basically, from the misuse of fireworks. We are committed to making our communities safer through reductions in anti-social behaviour, crime and indeed the fear of crime. We have most recently consulted on our draft noise and soundscape plan for 2023 to 2028. It outlines that we do not believe that the current legislation in England and Wales is adequate to protect vulnerable people and animals from the effect of firework noise. We are willing to work constructively with any UK Government administration that is open to improving the laws governing the sale and the use of fireworks in England and Wales.

I'd like to add my sympathies and best wishes to the boys who were injured last week as well. In the last Senedd, I also called for regulation on the sale of domestic fireworks, following an incident in my constituency in Newport where fireworks were thrown at an ambulance crew when they were answering a 999 call. The accessibility and availability of fireworks to the public continues to be a concern, and they seem to be more easily available than they ever have been. They're not just bought in our local shops; more of them are being bought online, and some of those ones that are being bought online are really made for fireworks displays, and large-scale commercial fireworks can really easily be bought online. So, we need to ensure that people are aware of how dangerous these fireworks are that they are purchasing, perhaps online, not just to people as well, but to animals, which you've mentioned, and the danger that they can cause and the damage. I think it's really important, as we go into the period when we'll be hearing more and seeing more fireworks set up, that we continue to highlight these dangers. Counsel General, can you continue to pursue those tighter restrictions with the UK Government that you've said that you will do, and can you help to promote the campaign about the sale of fireworks and the better use of fireworks in safe environments?

Thank you for that, and thank you for the fact that you often raise this matter and for the discussions that we've had in the past, and the discussions, no doubt, that are going to be ongoing. I mean, there are potential areas—. The Scottish Government, for example, introduced a Fireworks and Pyrotechnic Articles (Scotland) Act 2022 to tighten conditions over the sale and use. I think the difference there, of course, is that their devolution settlement is different. It's unfortunate that that is the case, because I think otherwise there are things we could do that would tie in with our noise and soundscape plan. So, we're sort of looking at things from slightly different angles to deal with it in some of those areas that are possibly within our competence, and I know that that will go on.

The other important area, of course, that's taken place is that there is consistent work that goes on with the Welsh police and crime commissioners and with the police forces generally. One of the aspects to fireworks is, of course, that there's sometimes an association with anti-social behaviour, and particularly with bonfires, and we've seen those disturbing incidents in the past as well. I remember that very much when I first came to Cardiff in 1973; there used to be a big bonfire by the Taff embankment. It's unfortunate that there still are some of those incidents.

So, I don't think it's a case of it's any one ministerial—. Certainly not in terms of my specific one; I can obviously comment in respect of aspects of the devolution and constitutional arrangements, but, of course, it does come into other ministerial responsibilities, and I think it's about working collectively through all those particular agencies at the moment to try and achieve those best outcomes and to ensure that people who do want to enjoy fireworks can do so, but they can do so safely and without risk of injury. This is something I think we do have to keep monitoring, keep engaging with, and try to achieve, I think, better and tighter legislation in due course.

Finally, question 8, Jack Sargeant.

Thank you. The use of live facial recognition technology is an operational decision for the police. Policing is a reserved matter and the responsibility of the Home Office. 

Presiding Officer, I'm sure you're aware that at the top of the Premier League table, unfortunately, there are two London football clubs, and, unlike the Counsel General, I'm not a fan of either of them. But I did take note—my colleague Joyce Watson, of course, is—but I did take note, when they played each other earlier last month, and that was because of the use of live facial recognition technology, being deployed against people whose only crime that day was wanting to watch the football with their friends and family. This is not the first case where live facial recognition technology has been used, and it's not just in England; we've seen it in the game of Cardiff City versus Swansea City in 2020; we've seen, in March 2018, South Wales Police using this type of technology at a peaceful demonstration. I was at a concert here in Cardiff some weeks ago where it was used again. Minister, I understand this is an operational matter for the police, and intervention does lie within UK Government competence, but what steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure that, when live facial technology is being used in Wales, it's used in a fair and proportional manner?

Well, one of the big challenges facing our society and facing democratic societies across the world is the growth of artificial intelligence and this type of technology, because, on the one hand, the benefits of technology have to be balanced against the civil liberties, the rights, the freedoms, of individuals. So, it is an issue, and you're right in terms of it being reserved, but we do recognise, I think, that many people have legitimate concerns as to how appropriately the balance between public safety and individual rights is being struck. This is something Ministers are actively exploring; we are engaging with South Wales Police to understand more about how the technology is actually being used, and, of course, you're aware of the legal action that took place around that particular issue, and the safeguards that are in place to reduce the impact on people's privacy.

Additionally, we're liaising with the House of Lords Justice and Home Affairs Committee to understand more on this subject, following their detailed work in this area. Can I say, I'm also very interested, and looking at—and I'm sure it will be a significant feature—the work that's going on within the European Union on this? Because they have adopted a draft regulation on the use of artificial intelligence, the Artificial Intelligence Act. That will form the basis of a text that the European Commission will negotiate with the Council of the European Union—that is, with the member states. And it has been a debate going on for some time—first proposed in April 2021 through the European Commission, the European Council adopted the position in 2022, the European Parliament adopted a text with some amendments in June 2023—and the intention is to have legislation that is in place by 2026 across all the EU countries. I think that work that's being done is something I think we certainly want to share in, we want to understand and may be of significant importance to us. It's a great pity that we are not part of that process in being able to engage in it. But, nevertheless, we can monitor and learn from that as part of the ongoing discussions that are taking place, not only on this, but also all the other implications of the use of artificial intelligence.

I thank the Counsel General.

Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission, and the first question is from Peter Fox and will be answered by Ken Skates. Peter Fox.

Well, can I thank Peter Fox for the question? So, the best estimate of the anticipated costs of the Senedd reform to the Senedd Commission are presented in a regulatory impact assessment, which, as the Member knows, is accompanying the Welsh Government’s Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. Over the eight years that we've appraised the costs, they are set by the Welsh Government to be in the total of £88 million to £106 million. These costs include estate adaptations and also additional staff costs, as well as the additional determination costs for the new Members themselves and of course their staff. These costs will doubtlessly be refined as we plan our budgets, and preparations for the Commission's 2024-25 draft budget have led to refined plans for that year when compared with the RIA cost estimates.

Thank you, Commissioner, and I appreciate that we've had these conversations in other forums as well. But, as we all know, the current predicted costs for the Senedd Commission, as you just pointed out, are considerable, to say the least. And it will cost, as you pointed out, an estimated £6 million to expand the facilities required and around £100 million over eight years to cover the other costs—staffing, allowances et cetera. But I was concerned by the First Minister's claims, and I quote, that he said that:

'It will be 2026 before any of these bills have to be paid'.

Well, we know there'll be some bills on the way, which no doubt will have to be paid. But this strikes me as a lack of forward planning, and I'm not sure it's wise to essentially Klarna this cost, especially during a time when Ministers have been told to make cuts to prevent £900 million-worth of a projected shortfall in funding. With this in mind, Commissioner, how certain is the Commission that the expansion will fall within the projected costs, and does the Commission have any concerns that there may not be enough funding available in 2026, as a result of Welsh Government perhaps having to prioritise key services such as the NHS, as none of us know where the money is coming from yet? What contingency plans will be put in place?

I think Peter Fox raises a number of important questions there. First of all, the process, which is to plan for reform over several financial years. Of course, we do as a Commission run a very tight budget, and, as can be seen by the draft budget we've been presenting to committees this autumn, it is incredibly difficult to create headroom to invest in areas that we would like to invest in, but which, at the moment, due to the cost-of-living pressures, make it prohibitive.

Now, as we look at the future costs of Senedd reform, we are, as the Member knows, classed as a major stakeholder. It's for the Government to make the argument for Senedd reform; it's for the Senedd Commission to respond to questions from the Government regarding the estimated costs. Those estimated costs that the Welsh Government are able to present are based on the raw data from the Commission. We're confident that our estimates, our data, are absolutely accurate. But, of course, in terms of planning for future budgets, our budget will be determined in no small part by the block grant that the Welsh Government receives from the UK Government. And, of course, as we pursue those adaptations, those changes, that are necessary for Senedd reform, it's going to be absolutely vital that we receive sufficient funding to do so. But that's going to be a matter largely for the Welsh Government in future years.

Tŷ Hywel is owned by Equitix Tiger English LP, and they're a limited partnership based in Leeds, but we do not hold any specific information on the tax status of the owners.

Okay. So, Commissioner, does the Commission therefore hold any information at all on where the owners of the Tŷ Hywel estate are based, their tax status and whether they are linked to states not befitting our national Parliament? And if not, why not? 

One of the problems that we've got with Tŷ Hywel, as the Member is aware, is that its ownership changes hands quite regularly, and I am aware of news articles back in, I think it was, 2015 that reported on the owners of Tŷ Hywel being individuals that perhaps we wouldn't necessarily want to do business with. But the Member will also be aware that we are looking, through our Cardiff Bay 2032 programme, at a number of options for the accommodation of Members, including the potential to purchase Tŷ Hywel, the potential to develop Tŷ Hywel for additional Members. In terms of the tax details, I understand that His Majesty's Revenue and Customs are the only source of tax information that is not available to the public, including ourselves, and sometimes it's provided at the time of signing a lease, but our lease was signed over a significant period many years ago. But if the Member has any information that she believes would be of interest to the Commission, I'd very much welcome it. 

Question 3 is to be answered by the Llywydd. James Evans. 

The Commission is currently undertaking a review into the use of the Senedd estate. As part of this, the views of Members and other stakeholders have been sought with regard to events and meeting places on the estate, and how to ensure the most appropriate and efficient use of the parliamentary venues. The Commission considered an initial issues paper on 25 September 2023 on this. A further paper with proposals on how to address the issues identified, and a framework on how to populate the estate, will be brought to the Commission before the end of this year. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank you for your answer. One of the reasons that it's been raised with me is holding events in the evening here on the Senedd estate, because we don't have adequate amounts of people to deliver the catering facilities and the security facilities in the evening over the estate—so, if we have an event over in the Pierhead and here in the Senedd itself. So, I'd just like to know what work the Commission is doing on this to make sure that we can have multiple events on in the evening. Because without us holding events here—. This is what our Parliament is about—to improve democracy, highlight those charities and organisations that come to us to do that—and I think it is the job of the Commission to try and facilitate that as much as possible.  

I agree; I love to see vibrant activity on the Senedd estate. As I alluded to in my earlier response, the Commission is aware that Members are keen to engage themselves in the future use of the Senedd estate and how it, including the Pierhead, of course, is put to use, and the ability by Members and our partner organisations to use our estate. And therefore, we will be, in a Commission meeting in the very near future, discussing the feedback from Members and others that we've received over the past few months and coming forward with proposals for the future. But I do need to give one health warning, of course. We are in a time where resources are limited, financial resources are limited, and therefore the more events we put on, the more costs to the Commission of staffing those events. So, getting the balance right on all of that and meeting the aspirations I know that so many Members have to have greater activity and greater presence on our Senedd estate is important. But bear in mind as well that we now have hybrid facilities that mean that many of our events as well—or meetings certainly—can take place in a virtual setting, where members of the public and stakeholders can contribute from afar of Cardiff Bay as well. And we've invested quite heavily over the past few years in making sure that more and more of our committee rooms and private meeting rooms are able to accommodate hybrid events as well. 

Question 4 is to be answered by Joyce Watson, and asked by John Griffiths. 

I thank you for the question. The physical and mental well-being of Senedd Commission staff is indeed a priority, with a well-being strategy in place outlining how the Commission supports that. That includes promoting physical and mental well-being, through awareness campaigns posted on the staff internet, and an internal well-being newsletter, which is published four times a year, and each Commission service area has its own well-being action plan. The Senedd Commission offers a range of corporate membership schemes to gyms and independent exercise groups, encouraging staff to be physically active, improve mental well-being and connectivity, whilst assisting financially, which reflects the four main areas of the Commission’s well-being strategy.

Diolch yn fawr. Yesterday, I was pleased to organise a well-being run and walk for Members of the Senedd. James, who's in the Chamber, was one who took part, as well as the health Minister, the education Minister, Jane Dodds, and others. It's always best not to start a list, isn't it, because you always forget somebody. [Laughter.] But it was very good, and we had health and sports people from Wales in attendance as well, and it was organised by the wonderful Parkrun Wales. The showers were very useful afterwards as well, Commissioner. And it was really good to see some Commission staff join us, particularly Helen McCarthy in the security team, who was very helpful in helping with the organisation, and I know that, outside work, she's a tour de force in championing running and exercising activities in south Wales. So, after the event, Commissioner, a number of Commission staff mentioned that they would be keen to set up a group, whether formally or informally, where they could come together and run or walk together on a regular basis. So, I just wonder whether you could give some thought to how the Commission could facilitate that as part of helping Commission staff lead more healthy and active lifestyles.

Well, it seems to me like you all had great fun. I didn't join you, but running's not exactly my style. But the more serious point, which you make, is that it is always good for people to start their day in a healthy way. In terms of your particular ask, about the Senedd giving any help and support towards forming a group, that won't be my decision and mine alone, it will be a collective decision of the Commissioners, and also the availability of any staff to facilitate that. So, all I can say to you at this point is that I will take that back, I will talk to my colleagues, and you will receive the answer to your request in due course.

Question 5 is to be answered by Janet Finch-Saunders. Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. I know this is something very close to your heart, because you do raise these questions, and they're really good questions to ask. I'd like to start by thanking Matthew Jones and the team in our sustainability department. As we were pleased to detail in our recent sustainability annual report, which I hope all Members have read, we are making good progress with the short-term actions of our carbon-neutral strategy. We have been working on the efficiency savings in particular—the no-cost and low-cost measures, including behavioural change. We have a range of further measures planned before 2030 that will reduce our carbon footprint by more than half, before we need to look at making it net neutral. I'm pleased to announce that our connection to the Cardiff heat network has started to be built, however, it will be Cardiff Council that actually implement the making of that going online. Measures include reverting the buildings to more natural ventilation; installing solar photovoltaic panels and air-source heat pumps; and targeting our wider supply chain emissions. But we mustn't get too carried away as those will be very costly interventions. Last winter, our promise to reduce gas use by 15 per cent was a success. We minimised the use of air conditioning in the summer and are targeting even more measures this coming winter to reduce utility consumption.

Thank you for that answer—very interesting. I haven't read your sustainability annual report, but I will do. I will definitely scrutinise it, because, obviously, the important thing is that every penny we spend on energy is money we can't spend on something else. I would beg to disagree with you that we only use air conditioning to the minimum, because I have constantly been going into rooms where the air conditioning is blasting away, nobody in the room, and that's just frustrating. We rarely need air conditioning in this country, frankly, unless, of course, it's in a closed room like the Chamber. And I still find lights on when the sun is blazing. People just turn them on as a natural thing.

So, there's plenty to do, but I'm very pleased to see that you actually have a plan and you are implementing it, because that's incredibly important. We can't tell people to do things and then not do them ourselves. So, in the context of all the savings that we're having to make, just like all other public bodies, it's really important that we drive down our energy costs and endeavour to reach net zero as soon as we possibly can.

Thank you, again, and on that one, I was actually a little bit surprised to see this, because I've never gone into my office when the lights are on or the air conditioning is on, if there's nobody in the office. We do have mechanisms in place that would cut off your lighting and your air conditioning at around about 15 minutes. So, it may well be that staff or whoever, in some offices, have a higher setting, so, even though it's not needed, it's going away quite merrily. 

So, there is a climate emergency and we know this, but Members ourselves have a wide range of controls in our offices, being able to raise the cooling set point so that the air conditioning doesn't come on and also we can lower the heating set point in the winter to minimise the use of the radiators. Members are also able to switch lights off in their offices and, I think it's incumbent—. When I leave my office to go to the afternoon fringes, or if I haven’t got anybody in the office or if we go out together, I always turn my lights off.

We've minimised energy use throughout the past year, as I say. So, I actually believe that we're doing all that we possibly can. There's always more that can be done, but if all Members just—. I think there's going to be, as is usually the case here in the winter, the team will come around and they will speak to offices because we're hoping that Members may want to just perhaps think of one degree less over the winter. That one degree, because we're busy rushing around, I don't think we're going to notice it; our staff may not notice it either. But we've got to try these measures because I completely agree that none of us should be here—this is taxpayers' money as well—wasting any of our valuable resources. Thank you.

Question 6 is to be answered by Joyce Watson. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

I thank you for that question. The Senedd Commission promotes a supportive culture that generates awareness about the menopause, where conversations about it are encouraged.

I am delighted to say that, further to my response to Huw Irranca-Davies’s written question on this topic, the Senedd Commission’s Human Resources Service has reviewed the existing guidance to align with the British Standards Institution's new standard on menopause in the workplace. The menopause toolkit, which also provides perimenopause support and guidance, helps guarantee awareness amongst all staff and provides support for those affected. That support includes simple changes to the working environment and can make a huge difference. The review was done in collaboration with trade union colleagues and our workplace equality networks. And the Commission will be launching its new guidance on World Menopause Day, next week, on 18 October.

Well, I'm very pleased to have that response; it's a very positive one. As you've said, back in 2017 the Trades Union Congress launched this toolkit, which has been such a core part of developing the British Standards Institution's BS 30416 that you mentioned, which is going to be implemented in workplaces across the UK. I'm very pleased to hear you say that you support workers in order to understand the culture and awareness around the menopause, but could we have your assurance that this employer provides the support and flexibility needed by women who live with the menopause?

I think the first thing I want to say is, as far as I understand it, the Senedd Commission will be the first organisation in Wales to adopt the new BSI standard, and I think that speaks volumes about our commitment in this area. And the revised guidance provides information related to perimenopause, menstruation and menstrual health. The new guidance will incorporate useful tools including conversation prompts for line managers and risk and workplace adjustment assessment templates. Guidance is available for Members and their staff on the Members' intranet, and there is a well-being at work package containing sessions that would be supportive to those experiencing the menopause. Existing learning and development provision relating to the menopause for Commission staff, Members and Members' support staff will be refreshed in line with that new guidance. A member of the diversity and inclusion team from the Senedd Commission will be participating in 'Getting started with menstruation and menopause support in the workplace', the BSI group webinar this month, to share the best practice in this area, and that features a virtual event as part of the inter-parliamentary inclusive week for staff. That help is available not only to the women who work here, but also, to take the intersectionality approach, to be wholly inclusive for disabled people, people from ethnic minority backgrounds, the impact that the menopause might have on men, partners of those going through the menopause, and also trans people.

Question 7 is to be answered by Ken Skates. Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Although our Parliaments don't undertake formal benchmarking, we do share best practice and make comparisons for environmental performance and also energy use and services within the Commission. We also have good working relationships with their counterparts in other UK legislatures via established networks.

Now, it is difficult to compare Parliaments exactly and precisely given each one has a different composition, different priorities and each is at a different stage of development. But learning from one another is something that we keenly pursue.

Thank you for that answer. It's good to see that there is a sharing of understanding of what best practice is in different areas, and so on. But, even though we have asymmetric devolution and asymmetric bodies throughout the UK, I wonder whether there is potential in the months and years ahead in looking at similar-sized Parliaments, ones that do have similarities and similar levels of maturity as well, so that we can actually try and see if there are comparators that can be worked up. I say this simply because it would be good to give reassurance to taxpayers as we evolve these institutions that we are spending taxpayers' money very effectively indeed. So, I just wonder if it's something that you want to think about going ahead, because it does seem that there is scope to not just share best practice, but to develop some metrics for comparison as well. 

Can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his question? It really is quite an interesting area of work, actually, and extensive engagement is taking place, not just with Parliaments in Britain, but also further afield. For example, during COVID, business continuity forum meetings took place with the other Parliaments across the UK, but also with Canada and New Zealand. They took place on a weekly basis and we recently engaged with the Northern Ireland Assembly to benchmark and consider the organisational structures of each Parliament. We have in the past benchmarked some areas of our operations—for example, our bilingual services and staff numbers—against other similar Parliaments. This exercise hasn't been regularly undertaken, though, since devolution. It was last conducted in 2018, so it's certainly something that we'd like to look at. It is, though, resource intensive, and as the Llywydd has already highlighted, our budgets are incredibly tight at the moment.

The independent remuneration board does compare the pay and allowances of the Senedd with the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, and the Commission is always seeking value for money and efficiency in its operations. We conducted a capacity review in 2022, one was undertaken in 2021, and prior to that there was also a capacity review in 2018. We're part of inter-parliamentary networks that stretch beyond the United Kingdom, as well. We undertake informal comparisons, but formal benchmarking, as I say, can be very resource intensive. There are different devolution settlements that apply across different Parliaments, and powers are not always precisely the same, so it can make it very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons. But learning from one another, ensuring that we drive savings wherever possible, that we get best value for money, is something that we are incredibly keen to pursue at all times. 

And finally, question 8, Heledd Fychan. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. The draft Commission budget for 2024-25, which was laid before the Senedd in September, includes provision for an annual uplift—as Members will be aware—in pay for Commission staff under the terms of our current pay framework that was negotiated with, and approved by, our trade union side representatives and with the Commission. It does not include provision for any additional salary enhancement beyond those amounts, in line with budgetary requirements. The Commission, I have to say, would experience significant impact on its ability to deliver services if any further pay claim materialises, but as no formal requests have been made for 2024-25, we were unable to consider any additional amounts within the budgets for that financial year. 

Thank you for that response. I understand, and we all do, the pressures that that has placed on the Commission's budget, which is why, I think, we are keen to ensure that it does not impact on the ability to do other things. Obviously, PCS have been very vocal in terms of saying that they do still want to negotiate, because, obviously, the cost-of-living crisis still impacts on staff, and so on. So, how do we balance, then, the need for being able to still negotiate, but also address the very real, pressing circumstances on the Senedd Commission's budget without that provision being in place?

I'm really grateful for the question. It does highlight the difficulty that we face in ensuring that we have a budget that can provide for the services that Members wish to have delivered in the best possible way, but that also pays our employees a decent wage. And although negotiations have yet to take place about any further pay claim for either the financial years of this current pay deal or, indeed, the new pay deal from 2025 onwards, we do expect those negotiations to begin soon.

The Commission doesn't wish to pre-empt the conclusions of negotiations and we also have to be mindful of the financial pressures being faced by the wider Welsh public sector. But if a significant ask were to be made, then we would have to look to the Welsh Government for support in ensuring that strike action could be averted and that a pay deal could be negotiated successfully. We don't—as Members are well aware—have contingencies within our budget for unknown events, and so it makes it incredibly difficult when unforeseen events come along alongside difficult decisions that have to be made in relation to the cost-of-living pressures that everybody is facing. 

The Commission have made a payment to all staff earning less than £32,000 during the 2022-23 financial year, and we're also making a further payment of £1,500 to all staff up to director level in the 2023-24 financial year, but not including director level. The dispute with the PCS—as I'm sure most Members are aware—is a national one that covers pay, pensions, job security and redundancy terms, with significant elements in the control of the UK Government. But I will continue to engage with Members as further financial years' support for PCS members, and, indeed, members of other unions, is considered. 

I thank the Commissioners.

Item 4 is the topical question, and I call on Joyce Watson to ask the question.

Thank you very much indeed for asking this question. After months of disruption to the local community, I welcome the clarity provided by the Home Office's decision not to use Stradey Park Hotel to house sanctuary seekers. The Home Office must now play its full part in repairing community relations in Llanelli.

I too welcome this announcement. It's undoubtedly the right decision for the people of Furnace and for Llanelli. I'm pleased that the Home Office has finally listened to the community, and I hope that the community will be given the space they need to come together and rebuild from the events of the last few months. I welcome the reports that have been issued this morning by the hotel owners that they're intending to reopen that hotel and that it can be returned for use by that community.

As you know, Minister, this has caused huge upset and division within the local community, and it has also meant the loss of around 100 jobs when that hotel was shut. While there is much that has been said, and deserves to be said, about the Home Office's mishandling of this, my concern now is that the hotel can be renovated and made suitable for reopening as soon as possible; that the former workers can be re-employed, if that's appropriate, or supported into new employment if it's not; and that the community can start to heal from the fractures that this reckless intervention has brought upon it. Minister, what support can be offered to the community in the ways I've just described, and have you had discussions with the Home Office asking them to support the community in the way forward? 

Thank you very much, Joyce Watson, for those questions. It's been, as you say, a very difficult time for the local community in Llanelli. We were extremely disappointed with how the proposed use of the Stradey Park Hotel was handled, not just by the Home Office but by the hotel owners as well, with the staff who lost their jobs given little notice of being made redundant and little clarity on alternative employment offers.

It is really important to recognise that the Home Office learnt no lessons from Penally—no lessons at all. Their approach has led to increased community tension, protests and disruption at the Stradey Park Hotel. As I said, we are seeking urgent assurances from the Home Office that they'll take full responsibility for the repair of the damage caused by their decisions around Stradey Park, and we will work with partners in Carmarthenshire. I spoke to the leader yesterday, Councillor Darren Price, about the way in which Carmarthenshire County Council are working with the Welsh Government, working with the health board and working with the police, who have been so engaged. I think we need to thank all of the partners for how they've managed the last few very difficult months. Also, what we've been clear with the Home Office about is that there are better ways to do this, because we want to play our full part in UK Government asylum and resettlement. We want to continue to help people to rebuild their lives. They must now work with us on future decisions, with our local authorities.

Just in terms of some of the questions you've asked, I'm interested to see what the response from the hotel will be in terms of reopening. We discussed this yesterday. We know the community wants it to reopen. We want to play our part, just in terms of those jobs that were lost. We've already, actually, reached out to offer our help in finding new employment or training after that announcement, which was so devastating. So, the ReAct programme was all there and made available, and, indeed, Working Wales, Communities for Work Plus and the Department for Work and Pensions all delivered support to the employees back in July.

But the Home Office needs to understand the negative impact of the hotel making those redundancies, not just on the employees themselves but the wider community tensions. So, it is about healing, it is about working together. I am meeting the Minister for Immigration next week and I'm going to give him the detail of what has gone wrong over the past six months—no communication, no information, stirring up misapprehension, inviting the far right in, inviting them in in the way that this UK Government is doing increasingly. But I will lay it out to him that we want to play our part, we will play our part, and we already are in terms of our responsibilities. And we, of course, are working with our Welsh local authorities on the Home Office's asylum dispersal plan.

The choice to use Stradey Park Hotel to house asylum seekers was clearly the wrong decision, taken in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons, and one that served neither the best interests of those seeking sanctuary, nor the community in Ffwrnes near Llanelli. I welcome the Home Office's u-turn, but there's no denying that the whole situation leaves a very bad taste and many unanswered questions, including, as we've heard already from Joyce Watson, around job losses, the future of the hotel itself, community tensions and the division that this episode has sown. 

Whilst the Tories in Westminster have dithered on decision making and have used public platforms to demonise asylum seekers, I'd like to put on record my thanks, as you've already done, Minister, to Carmarthenshire County Council, under the leadership of Darren Price, who have been the voice of reason throughout this process, seeking legal challenges and working with all of us as elected Members and the local community to find a solution. Can I also thank the local campaign groups who worked tirelessly to oppose this ill-thought-out plan, and for the right reasons? However, my message to those who came to Llanelli to fan the flames of hatred and bigotry: your actions are not welcome here.

In a world of tensions—and we see what's happening in the middle east at the moment—we, as a nation, are duty bound to safeguard those fleeing hardship and violence. And I'm quite clear that Carmarthenshire, like other counties in Wales, will continue to provide safe sanctuary to people who are fleeing war and persecution. As we've heard with the case of refugees from Ukraine and Syria, the dispersal model for providing homes to asylum seekers has worked well over a number of years. So, my question to you, Minister, is this: what is the Welsh Government going to do to ensure, in looking to the future, that the dispersal model is the model that is favoured? And how can we ensure that we won't see a repeat of the disastrous situation that has arisen in Llanelli?

Diolch yn fawr, Cefin Campbell. Can I also add my thanks, as I have done, to the partners who played their important roles, the statutory bodies? I didn't mention the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service, of course, for securing that prohibition order on the building, which was clearly unsuitable. As you said, this has been the wrong place, the wrong decision, the wrong way of handling it for the wrong reasons.

I just want to answer specifically your point about our commitment in Wales and our local authorities' commitment—the leader of Carmarthenshire County Council and all the elected Members who worked very closely together, cross-party, on this issue. We have signed up to the Home Office's asylum dispersal plan, and that will increase the number of dispersal bed spaces to over 5,500—effectively doubling the numbers in Wales. We are happy to progress this with our local authorities, but the Home Office and its accommodation provider, Clearsprings Ready Homes, are responsible for the procurement of accommodation in Wales. 

So, that's my discussion with the immigration Minister next week—Robert Jenrick—how are we going to influence that when they are responsible for that procurement? Just to say, we know we can do this—we've said it. We have welcomed more than 7,000 people under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, with more than 3,300 arriving under the Welsh Government's supersponsor route—this is a safe and legal route, which is what we need for sanctuary seekers—and 800 individuals settled in Wales under the Afghan resettlement scheme. So, we know we can do it, we will work together to—. But also, clearly, we'll remember and work with the people and the organisations and partners in Llanelli to help heal and recover from this terrible experience that they've been through over the last six months.

As I raised with you earlier, Minister, the Tory Westminster Government's despicable, discriminatory, disastrous and inappropriate policies are led by ideology and not compassion, a desire to sow division rather than foster social cohesion. And what we see time and time again—and Stradey Park Hotel is just the latest example—is that lack of consultation with local communities, with local council leaders and devolved Governments. I know you agree, Minister, that we need an effective asylum dispersal system, with proper resources for councils to support people in need within communities. So, how will you try to ensure the UK Government adopts the model that local and national leaders favour in Wales, to avoid situations like we've seen in Llanelli from happening again, and that appropriate accommodation is procured that  preserves the dignity and human rights of those seeking sanctuary?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. It was the Home Office's failure to engage with the local authority, with the local community, with local community leaders and public services that led to that community tension, that insecurity, as well as, of course, the loss of those jobs when the hotel was taken over by Clearsprings. So, my message on Wednesday—next week, I'm not sure which day it is I'm meeting the immigration Minister—is about how we are going to handle decisions about the location of accommodation for sanctuary seekers with care and consideration, so that we don't have a repeat of what happened in Llanelli. We've said we've signed up to this dispersal plan, and our commitment is clear, as it has been. The fact is that we have such a proud record, haven't we, and history of welcoming refugees? And we'll continue to welcome people to Wales and help them make a new life here. So, that, of course, is my purpose from this point on.

Thank you, Minister.

Item 5 is the 90-second statements, and first we have Jayne Bryant.

This week marks Hospice Care Week, and so I want to take this time to highlight the wonderful work of St David's Hospice Care in my constituency in Newport West.

In 1979 Heulwen Egerton MBE, a nurse tutor at the Royal Gwent Hospital, set up the Gwent hospice project group. The group was made up of like-minded individuals who were concerned at the lack of palliative care available to the people of Gwent. From their first year of operation, caring for six patients, St David’s Hospice Care has since grown to become the UK’s largest provider of hospice-at-home care, caring for over 3,200 patients and families every year. Last year more than 3,386 patients and families were cared for by the dedicated, skilled, compassionate staff at St David’s—more than 30 per cent of whom had a non-cancer diagnosis.

I know from my own family that the care that they give is phenomenal. Nestled among greenery and its own gardens lies the wonderful in-patient unit in Malpas, which opened in 2017. Equipped with 15 beautiful en-suite rooms overlooking fields, the space is so tranquil and allows for complete peace of mind. The staff are there for both the patient and their families, and the support, kindness and empathy they show is so precious and valuable. All of the care they provide is completely free of charge and their service is absolutely invaluable. This year's Hospice Care Week focuses on its workforce, so diolch o galon. They deserve our complete admiration, support and celebration for everything they do to make hospice care in Wales what it is.

The annual Denbigh Plum Feast, which takes place in the town of Denbigh, surprisingly, on the first Saturday of October at Denbigh town hall, which I had the pleasure of attending just a few days ago, on Saturday. The feast brings together local people, businesses, local food and drink retailers for all of the family to enjoy the best of what Denbighshire has to offer. One business that takes part in the event are Vale Vineyard from Aberwheeler, who produce the fantastic Solaris white wine, which I bought a bottle of for Christmas. But for those who may not know, the Denbigh plum is the only native fruit to Wales, and has protected status, as this particular plum has a juicier and more robust flesh than your average supermarket plum, which gives it its unique appeal to discerning customers.

The event is organised by Nia Williams and Peter Plum, who have organised the event for number of years, and it continues to be a well-loved attraction for people in the town of Denbigh and surrounding areas. The Vale of Clwyd has many top-quality food and drink producers, and the Denbigh Plum Feast provides the ideal platform for businesses to showcase their products to the wider public in a fun and family-friendly setting. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Nia, Peter and all involved for another successful year hosting the plum feast last Saturday and hope it continues to remain a fixture in the October programme for many years to come. All that leaves me to say is: long live the Denbigh plum.

The plight of the high street is being addressed once again, with empty units across our high streets and shops having to close. Every high street needs an anchor, a building or service or a central store that creates a buzz and attracts visitors.

The Tŵr building used to be the anchor of the high street in Pwllheli, and now the Tŵr co-operative community enterprise is looking to buy this ancient building and recreate it as an anchor and a community hub for the town. The aim is to reopen it as a pub, restaurant and hotel, but the vision is much greater than that. The hope is that it will be a community hub for different ventures, environmental initiatives, a hub for artisans and a hub for new local businesses. If the Government doesn't want to step in to help the high street of Pwllheli, then it falls on the people of Pwllheli to do so. So, best wishes to the Tŵr initiative in Pwllheli and the dynamic and enthusiastic volunteers, as they aim to secure a prosperous future for the town of

' "Benja," and "Largo" and "Twm Pen Slag," / "Now Ostrelia," and "Siencyn Brawd Huw," / And "Ned Foreign Bird," and "Bo'sun Puw;" '.

Thank you.

Item 6 is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill to promote responsible dog ownership. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move the motion.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to move this motion this afternoon. It's a very important motion for our communities across Wales.

Wales is a nation of dog lovers. What was already a special bond between owner and our four-legged friends deepened during the coronavirus pandemic with the restrictions that came with it. Many people also became dog owners for the first time during those dark times, largely because of the rewarding companionship it offered. I grew up around dogs. I also worked on farms where dogs were not just pets, but also trained workers. I appreciate that the vast majority of dogs across all breeds pose no problems provided that they are trained and raised well. In the wrong hands, however, dogs can become dangerous, indeed lethal weapons.

There seems to be a correlation between the increase in dog ownership and the number of dog attacks. Earlier in the summer, ITV Wales reported on the number of dog attacks in Wales for 2022. They found that more than 3,000 people in Wales went to hospital following a bite by a dog that year. Of those recorded, one in five were children under the age of 17. This total number is well short of the actual figure, however, because only four of the seven health boards responded with full figures.

Using data based on 37 freedom of information responses from police forces in England and Wales, you can see that there's a pattern of increasing dog attacks emerging across the two countries. There were 21,918 dog attacks in Wales and England in 2022, compared with 16,394 in 2018. This type of offence, defined by the police as 'out-of-control dogs causing injury', has increased by 5,524 offences during the provided time period. In my region of South Wales East, there have been some horrific attacks that have resulted in fatalities. The deaths of 10-year-old Jack Lis and Shirley Patrick, who was 83, have devastated their families, and left the wider community in this close-knit area absolutely distraught. I understand that Jack's mother, Emma, is in the public gallery here today to hear the debate, and I want to praise her bravery and determination to bring about change following the unimaginable grief and pain of losing Jack.

I think it's incumbent upon the people in this Senedd to explain what we can do to improve the lives of people we represent. Protecting our constituents and increasing community safety, which is part of the devolution settlement, is an example of that. Due to the peculiarities and, I would argue, the absurdities of the devolution settlement in Wales, we have some powers at our disposal when it comes to animals, but other key powers are reserved to Westminster. Anything to do with the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 remains in the hands of those sitting in the House of Commons. We do, however, have powers over animal welfare. If a legislative approach is taken to promote happy, healthy dogs, then it's within our competence here in the Senedd. There are wide existing powers under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which the Welsh Government have already used to develop a Welsh-specific policy approach. However, any legislative approach with the purpose of banning or regulating in relation to dangerous dogs would be reserved.

My legislative proposal in its current wording may well be outside the bounds of our remit here in Wales, but that is something for the constitutional experts and lawyers to perhaps argue over. My intention in bringing this debate to the Senedd is to look at what we can do here in Wales to place more responsibility on dog owners to ensure that they do all they can to raise and train dogs that are safe and healthy within their community. Educating dog owners, particularly those who seek to own large and powerful dogs, is something that we do not have to wait for Westminster to give permission on.

There are also local initiatives like LEAD, which stands for Local Environmental Awareness on Dogs. This was recently launched in the Caerphilly area and will provide advice on dog issues as well as aim to improve dog safety and welfare. It also seeks to curtail anti-social and inconsiderate behaviour by individuals with dogs in order to protect and reassure the public. The initiative allows intelligence sharing and has a remit to issue warning letters, acceptable behaviour contracts and, ultimately, take enforcement action if appropriate.

So, there are already pockets of good practice in Wales, but the approach is piecemeal. We need a consistent pan-Wales approach to increasing community safety when it comes to dog ownership. The reality is that there are a large number of dog breeds that could be lethal in the wrong hands. This is something that has been recognised in other countries, where education is prioritised for dog owners and, in some cases, restrictions are imposed on dog owners to ensure that they own a dog responsibly. That is a debate I think it's well worth having here in Wales. If we can do something positive and proactive here in Wales, within the limited framework that we operate under, we should take every opportunity to protect our citizens. I firmly believe that the solutions to the problems we face as individuals, as communities, and as a country are best crafted when they come from within, from within Wales.

If we can do anything to enhance community safety, thereby making the horrific incidents that we have seen in our communities less likely, let's have that debate. Let's have the consultation and let's do this for the people we serve. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much to Peredur Owen Griffiths for bringing forward this debate.

Presiding Officer, Members of this Senedd will know that I have recently experienced first-hand the consequences of irresponsible dog ownership. My King Charles Cavalier, Coco, was violently attacked by two Staffordshire bull terriers, both of those were off their leads. Presiding Officer, after the ordeal, I was told that just before these two dogs attacked my Coco, they had already that day attacked another dog. Now, Coco suffered serious injuries to her throat and to her back, the back of her neck, during the unprovoked attack. The two much larger, more powerful dogs had to be prised off her by six brave members of the public, whilst I lay on top of her. Presiding Officer, I'm sharing this story again today because I'm fortunate enough to have this platform, a platform to share my experiences and to use it to call for change. My partner and I are very lucky to still have Coco with us today, and that's thanks, in no small part, to the members of the public who came to our rescue.

But this incident, as traumatic as it was, as traumatic as it still is, could have been far worse. We've heard again in the Senedd, in Peredur Owen Griffiths's opening, of the tragic circumstances we see far too often, and I find myself reflecting on my experience and asking this one question: what if it had been a child with Coco that day? Or, perhaps, what if the brave members of the public weren't able to help us at that moment? We know, Presiding Officer, that dogs can be unpredictable. It's the legal responsibility of owners to ensure their dog is under control at all times. Unfortunately, far too many owners become complacent. Far too many do not take the necessary steps or precautions to ensure their dog is not a danger to others.

Llywydd, I believe we need a public awareness campaign, one encouraging people to do the responsible thing and think carefully, very carefully, about whether or not they are in a position to train and to look after a dog properly before bringing it into their home. I would like to see any legislation brought forward to commit us to a central hub of information, available online, where prospective and current dog owners can view up-to-date expert advice, and I think it's vital that people are aware of where they can turn if they see their dog displaying aggressive behaviour, and that the support can be put in place before, sadly, it's too late. Presiding Officer, we're seeing violent dog attacks with serious consequences far too often. We need change, and I hope this motion will bring about it.

Thank you to Peredur for bringing the debate forward.

Wales has seen a high number of dog attack related injuries in recent years. Over 3,000 people in Wales went to hospital last year for having dog bites, according to ITV Wales. In Caerphilly over the last couple of years, there have been some horrendous incidents, and across the south-east region. In 2022, 25 dogs were seized by Gwent Police; in February of this year, 13 dogs were seized by Gwent Police in Caerphilly alone, on suspicion of being banned breeds. Councillor Steve Skivens in the gallery today, a Penyrheol ward member, has made this a priority in the community. I want to thank him for his work on this issue, as well as other local representatives.

We have had two fatalities in my region: schoolboy Jack Lis and Shirley Patrick. From the very young to the older members of our community, people have been touched by these tragedies. Now, Jack's mother, Emma, has become a campaigner on this issue. In June, she said,

'I can’t believe it’s happened again, two attacks after Jack in the same area. 

'I feel like it should never have happened in the first place, it feels like nobody’s listened or learned from mistakes.'

'Nobody should be losing their family member or their child in the way that we have. I need it to stop.'

I'd like to thank Emma for all of her brave campaigning on this issue and for coming to the Senedd and for listening to the debate. Diolch, Emma, for everything that you've done. I can't imagine what you must have gone through.

But dog attacks are frightening even when they're not fatal. A constituent from Crumlin contacted my team in February to say that a large-headed trophy dog on a very long lead jumped on him, aggressively, in a public place in Newbridge. He also told me that he'd been bitten by dogs in public places all over the region over the last few years, while his son was recently bitten by a dog on the same footpath in Newbridge. These less severe attacks don't make the news, but they have a major effect on the people who are involved, and the maddening thing is that here in Wales we don't have all the powers over this issue. The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 is not devolved, but the Welsh Government, as we've heard, does have control over the breeding and selling of dogs.

The Welsh Government can deal with this in a proactive way too, by reminding dog owners of their legal duties to keep their animals under control at all times. I know that the question of reintroducing dog licences was raised in the Senedd earlier this year. I'd like to hear an update from the Government on this. I do think that there is a consensus here that we do need stricter legislation. It's disappointing that we don't have all the powers that we need to respond to the demands made by campaigners and the families of those who have lost loved ones as a result of these attacks, but I do hope that this will be an important step forward, and I would again like to congratulate Peredur on securing this debate today, and I would like to support the motion. Thank you.

I think the most important thing that we can learn from Caerphilly, from my constituency, from my community, is that these actions can take place and these actions can happen to improve the lives of those people affected by these dog attacks. I was there at Jack Lis's funeral in November 2021, and I saw inside and outside St Martin's church the outpouring of grief but also love and support for the family—for Emma, and the wider family and community that existed in Caerphilly at the time, and continues to exist now. And also the tragic death of Shirley Patrick, 83 years old. That community has suffered those two deaths and also numerous attacks, and the actions that we're taking today, cross party, are vital in addressing these issues. I think, to Peredur Owen Griffiths's credit, to Delyth Jewell's credit—Councillor Steve Skivens is in the gallery, as I've heard—and Wayne David MP, we're demonstrating that cross-party working. Wayne David has raised in Westminster this issue and has, in no small measure, been influential in ensuring that the UK Government is taking action. More locally, in the Senedd and in our communities, we, collectively, cross party, have raised issues.

One of the things that Peredur said in his speech was that he thinks that some of the things that he mentions in his legislative proposal may not be within the powers of the Senedd, but, actually, I wonder if that might be the case. If you're talking about breeding regulations, if you're talking about licensing, if you're talking about responsible ownership campaigns, all of those things are in the gift of this Government, and I'm really glad to say that the Minister, Lesley Griffiths, has been very, very helpful in meeting with me, with community groups, and with campaigners to support the LEAD initiative in Caerphilly, but has also set up a summit next week—next Wednesday, I believe, which I intend to attend, and I believe that Peredur has had an invitation too—to discuss how we can, collectively, address the issues that Peredur has raised in his proposals. I also understand, having met with the chief veterinary officer of the Welsh Government this morning, that a taskforce will report soon—hopefully, he said, before Christmas—that can address some of these things. So, I think the lesson we're learning is we might not need to go to the stage of legislation to tackle these issues. Legislation takes time, and, as Members have said, this needs to be addressed quickly, and, therefore, I think we can take the learning that we've got from Caerphilly and upscale that across Wales. I think that would be the very best way to approach this collectively. 

The LEAD initiative, which, as Peredur said, was the Local Environmental Awareness on Dogs, was imported, actually, from the London Borough of Sutton, and we've taken it in Caerphilly, through Superintendent Michael Richards and his team, and the politicians and community members, to make it a serious and proactive attempt to resolve some of these issues. So, while the UK Government must be pushed to deal with the issue through the UK Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, we here in Wales have already taken these steps. What I'd like the Minister to do—and I'm sure she will in response to this debate—is outline how these tragic events can be prevented from happening again in the future, and explain when that taskforce will report and what she expects the outcome to be from the summit next week.

You need to close now, Hefin, please.

I thank her for the action she's taken, and stand in solidarity with Emma, with Shirley Patrick's family, and those Members in the Senedd today who have brought this issue forward.

I thank Peredur for bringing forward this debate.

I think, given what has happened not just over the last few weeks but the last few years, and, of course, the increase in dog owners over the pandemic, it's important that we have this debate and address the issue urgently.

I'll start from the premise of growing up with dogs. As Members will know, I have a whippet myself, my grandfather had greyhounds, and then my old man—. So, the dogs that I actually grew up with in the house, they were English bull terriers, so completely on the opposite end of the spectrum to the quiet, lazy and shy whippet that I have today. They were lovely dogs, and I say this because you can make any dog aggressive. The difference, of course, is the consequences of aggression in larger dogs as opposed to smaller ones. And I have to say, banning breeds is not going to resolve the underlying issue. Aggression isn't breed specific. Like us, factors in your upbringing, the environment around you, experiences, all contribute to how we act and interact with the world, and the same goes for dogs. So, what will resolve this issue is the work around responsible dog ownership. Speaking to Jack Sargeant and his experience with those two Staffies—the amount of times when I'm out with my dog and you see dogs off the lead with no recall, or off the lead and their owners are on the phone, not even paying attention to what's going on, is absolutely staggering, as well as people not actually recognising the social cues from their own dogs, which, more often than not, can give you an indication to how your dog is actually feeling. So, that means actually giving everybody the tools to properly understand their dog, to give them a good life and to meet all their needs.

I genuinely think people seriously underestimate how much work goes in to looking after a dog. You know, they're not like cats, where they're independent and you don't see them for days on end; they require a lot of attention. They need structure, they need routine, and all of that, of course, takes a significant amount of time. So, I think there's a role here for Government to explore how we best practise responsible dog ownership. There's, I think, a lot to learn from Caerphilly, as was already set out by Hefin David and Peredur and Delyth. I think licences should be explored as well. Each breed, for example, has different training needs. Some need just exercise; others need mental stimulation more than others—I mean, my English bull terrier growing up didn't need as much mental stimulation as a border collie. It's important we understand some of those differences as well in terms of breeds' needs.

So, to conclude very quickly, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll be supporting the motion. We need to address the underlying issue here, which is irresponsible owners and a lack of understanding and education on how you should actually look after your dog in the first place.

I very much welcome this timely debate, and it is shocking, isn't it, to hear of these dog attacks and their consequences and fatalities here in Wales. And we know that this is a picture across the UK and much further afield. We've had dog attacks in Newport East—fortunately not fatal, but dog attacks that have had consequences for the people involved in terms of the shock and the way they feel in terms of going out and about and perhaps walking their own dogs or taking their own children to local parks afterwards. And I must say that, routinely, I don't think byelaws are enforced in parks, for example. You see signs 'Dogs must be kept on a lead', but so often dogs are not on a lead, or, even if they are, people let go of the lead and the dog roams around. And very often, I see children cowering from dogs who are snapping at them while the owner is telling the family, 'Don't worry, he wouldn't hurt a flea.' And, you know, some people are so unrealistic in terms of the harm that dogs can do. We really do need education and more responsible dog ownership.

I think one aspect of this, Dirprwy Lywydd, is dog breeding as well, and I know that the Dogs Trust, for example, think that there's more we can do to tighten dog breeding and selling in terms of traceability to close some of the gaps that exist, and I think that's a significant part of the overall picture. But when I had ministerial responsibility several years ago for this aspect of Welsh Government responsibility, Dirprwy Lywydd, with officials at the time, I was looking at dog control notices, which would have been very much on the early intervention front, promoting responsible dog ownership. Where there were early signs of irresponsible ownership, addressing those with dog control notices that could be enforced to require training of the owner and the dog would have hopefully prevented further problems arising. At the time, UK Government were taking forward anti-social behaviour orders, which were seen as addressing these issues, but it hasn't worked out that way, and I really do think here in Wales now we need to return to what we need to do within our powers to address these issues, because do you know that there are estimates that there are something like 600,000 dogs in Wales? It's quite an incredible figure, isn't it? And it just goes to show the scale of the problems, and we all know from our own experience in our own constituencies that these attacks are taking place. They're very, very worrying. We've got these shocking examples of how far attacks can go. They can cause fatalities, and these problems need to be wrestled with now and nipped in the bud at the earliest stages to prevent the severity of attacks that we see.

Dog rescue centres are full, having been left to pick up the pieces after people bought dogs during COVID that they can no longer look after. Dogs became expensive, money-making commodities, selling for thousands of pounds, with often little regard to the health and nature of the dog. It's these unscrupulous breeders who are responsible for expanding large breed numbers, and developing the next line of larger dogs who may not fall under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

Many dogs have become fashion statements—an accessory with little regard or knowledge about how certain breeding can make living very difficult and painful for them. Owners need to think about the type of breed, whether they need lots of exercise, maintenance and their nature before purchasing a type of breed. I've visited many dog rescue centres, and they try to match the dog's personality and needs with the owner, and, very often, they have to change the perception of what the owners think would suit their family with what the dog looks like.

There are currently four types of dog breeds banned in the UK, including the pit bull terrier, but there is no or little enforcement. Local authorities are already struggling with resources, and the police are too. So, we need to stop the root cause, especially when evidence shows that legislation banning specific types of dogs because they're considered dangerous fails to protect public safety, and results in unnecessary suffering and euthanasia of many dogs.

Spain has enacted an animal welfare law that came live in September 2023, and this provides massive changes, some of which Wales is losing out on due to the removal of the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill. However, some changes would have far wider benefits for animal welfare and kept dogs, namely every owner is required to have completed training, and this simple issue would mean that they would not have the excuse of 'I didn't know better'.

We have spoken many times in the Senedd about the treatment of racing greyhounds, and I would like to see legislation brought forward to protect these beautiful, gentle, exploited creatures. Each year, thousands of surplus greyhounds deemed not fast enough for racing are euthanised or put up for adoption, and we need a phased ban on racing. Of those dogs who do not make it, many will never recover from the psychological harm of being kept in horrendous conditions and forced to race.

So, in finishing, we must stop treating animals as commodities for our entertainment, and instead encourage responsible pet ownership with an emphasis on safety and welfare. And as an ex-postie who got bitten several times, I totally understand that we need to have that responsible pet ownership. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you very much to Peredur Owen Griffiths for bringing forward this very important and complex issue. The proposal is really timely because, as we've heard, I recently announced I will be holding a summit on this issue next week. We know we have witnessed far too many attacks and fatalities over the past few years. Laws protecting the public from dangerous dogs are reserved matters, and I've been requesting action from the UK Government on this issue since 2017. So, I very much welcome, belatedly, the announcement from the Prime Minister to ban American XL bully dogs, and my officials will be working very closely with their counterparts in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. 

As we've just heard from John Griffiths himself, it was a priority for him when he was in this post, and he was very involved in the Control of Dogs (Wales) Bill. This Bill was not progressed due to the introduction of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. But in addition to the work the UK Government is doing on XL bully-type breeds, I believe they also need to look at whether that Act is delivering its intended objectives.

The definition of a dangerous dog is obviously legislation, again, that is a reserved matter, but from my point of view, any dog, whatever their breed or size, has the potential to cause harm and show aggression. Therefore, responsible dog ownership is vital for all breeds, and it was one of my key focus areas at this year’s Royal Welsh Show, and is a fundamental part of our animal welfare plan.

I very much support the principles behind this proposal and I’m pleased to be able to update the Senedd on how work in this area is progressing. I strongly believe working in partnership is the best way to be able to achieve our shared goals.

Much of what’s been discussed today can be achieved through effective enforcement of current legislation and better public awareness rather than the introduction of a Bill. Colleagues will know that the Welsh Government supported a local authority enforcement project for the last three years in relation to dog breeding and the licensing of activities involving animals. This work is tackling barriers to enforcement, providing training and guidance for inspectors, and making the most of existing resources within our local authorities. Our capacity to investigate and stop illegal breeding has increased significantly in recent years as a direct result of this project. This has included additional inspections at dog breeding premises and gathering of intelligence on unlicensed dog breeders, leading to more prosecutions.

Regarding public awareness, the final point of your proposal, Peredur, I’m happy to continue to promote local and national initiatives aimed at improving animal welfare. Supporting the likes of the RSPCA, Dogs Trust, Hope Rescue and national campaigns aimed at improving welfare and sharing best practice is something very close to my heart. I also want to see greater understanding of people’s responsibilities relating to their dogs, and what the penalties are if they do not meet their obligations. In addition, people should know how to report dogs that they feel are out of control or are causing concern. Prevention is always better than cure, and addressing an out-of-control dog is always preferable to dealing with the consequences of any attack.

So, as I’ve referred to already, next week we will be holding a multi-agency summit on responsible ownership. The aim of the summit is to explore what may be missing on action and enforcement regarding dangerous dogs, and the additional steps that can be taken to promote and improve responsible dog ownership here in Wales. The summit will also look at the issue of licensing, which Delyth Jewell mentioned. As she referred to, I’ve asked officials to look at this, and it’s very much tied up in the work around responsible dog ownership. If we do decide to bring that forward, it would obviously need a full consultation.

We do recognise the changes being made to the Dangerous Dogs Act by the UK Government, but I want the summit to focus on our own levers for improvement, including the importance of education, messaging, enforcement and both public safety and animal welfare. I’m inviting the police, local authorities, third sector organisations and those campaigning for both the welfare of dogs and the safety of the general public to attend. Many of the suggestions brought forward by Members today will be considered. I’m also very pleased and grateful that Emma Whitfield will be opening the summit for me. Some Members will have received invitations to the summit, and I’m grateful for that cross-party partnership working, which can address the issues raised and drive forward the improvements that we all collectively support. I will be very happy to update colleagues following the summit next week. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to respond to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everybody who's taken part in this debate. It has been a particularly respectful and excellent debate in handling an issue that is something that we all have to grapple with in all our constituencies and in all our communities, because the minute you start talking about this you realise it affects everybody, and people see it in different ways.

We heard from Jack that personal story about Coco and, yes, I agree, the public awareness, we've heard from the Minister that that is something that we need to be doing. Delyth, the stuff that is happening in Caerphilly is important, but it's how we do that, pan Wales, and get that consistency going across. Hefin, again, it's the same thing. We know what's happening in our communities, we live in these communities and we know that this is happening, and as you said, the summit that the Minister is convening next week is going to be an important next step. I feel that this debate is the next step on a journey to get to work together. Luke, the stuff around breeds and that banning doesn't work necessarily, and that it's about what we do that does work and what we can do here, so that we don't have to wait for other places to do things, and reflecting on some of the words that the Minister said at the end there about what levers we can use and being mindful that the owner has responsibility for that dog. John, diolch, and diolch for the work that you have done in the past. I hope that none of that has been lost so that we don't actually have to start from scratch again and that we're able to progress that and move it forward. I'm testing the Dirprwy Lywydd's patience here, so I'll move on. Carolyn, as an ex-postie, yes, I'm sure you've got some stories. [Laughter.] Not just, probably, around dogs. But going to that root cause and the breeders, it's a multifaceted approach that we need on this.

Again, thanks to everybody. Minister, thank you for convening the summit next week. I'd hoped to be there, but I am chairing the Finance Committee at the same time, so I might have to send a member of staff to listen in, but I'd appreciate a conversation with you after that summit to find out what you're going to be doing next. And that collaborative work is the important thing that we need to do. I hope that this debate has helped in the work that you're doing. There's a consensus across this Chamber. It's not just warm words. And what Delyth said earlier, reflecting some of the words that Emma said earlier in the year, 'It seems as though nobody's listening', we are listening, Emma, and we are trying to do something about it. So, diolch yn fawr, everybody. Let's hope this is the catalyst for change. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on HS2 consequential funding. I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. HS2 was never going to benefit Wales, and no distortion or trick can change that travesty. We in Wales have paid towards a railroad that leaves us further behind, less connected, and we've been cheated out of billions of pounds for that perverse privilege. Billions that we could've spent on improving our country have instead been invested in impoverishing us even further and pushing us to the back of the proverbial queue.

I've struggled to find the words to do justice to this situation, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I've turned to some idioms instead. We talk about bloated infrastructure projects as being white elephants and it's curious that those same creatures are evoked when we talk about something that is so embarrassing, so uncomfortable that people choose to ignore the truth of it and contort themselves into pretending that it's something that it's not. They see an inflated, turgid problem and instead of putting it right, they avoid all acknowledgement of that ungainly elephant that tumbles about in a room. Does that sound familiar, I wonder? Does it remind any Members of any ungainly, costly, infrastructure project that has so recently been abandoned? Because that's what we have here: a gargantuan, blanched elephant; an infrastructure project that, instead of cowering in plain sight, has been put out of its misery and disappeared from any view at all—not an optical illusion, but a mendacious mirage. But, the con man still has our money. And now that the link to Crewe has gone, it's an insult that Westminster still clings to this con that HS2 is of any benefit at all to Wales. HS2 is an England-only project aimed at improving England's railways. Well, good luck to them, but it should never have been at our expense.

In 2020-21, only 3.7 per cent of Wales's rail tracks were electrified, compared with over 43 per cent in England and 32 per cent in Scotland. The billions we're already owed from the London-Birmingham leg could be used to electrify our entire rail network. Mr Sunak did attempt in his speech to claim that the north Wales main line would be electrified, but that promise too has been exposed as a distortion, a sham. We cannot trust a single word that the Tories say to us on railways. Just look at what happened with the Great Western main line and look again at what's happening today. We're all right for a headline, but when it comes to the cash or the planning, they make tracks—well, at least someone does.

The ratio between UK Government rail enhancement commitments in England versus Wales is approximately 200:1. I know enough about game shows, Dirprwy Lywydd, to know that that is not viable, and this is an injustice that needs to be put right by whoever is in power, because for as long as decisions on our literal direction of travel are made in another country, the destination will never be of our choosing. Decisions over major infrastructure projects, over transport, should be made in Wales. Powers over what happens on our own lines, our own tracks, should be in our possession. The failure to devolve these powers to this place has left us inert and unable to challenge this outrage. Professor Mark Barry has described the decision by the Welsh Government not to take on the same rail powers as Scotland when offered them by Westminster in 2004-05 as the biggest mistake since devolution.

As Plaid Cymru, we continue to raise our voice for Wales, for fairness, for ambition, for us here in Wales to have full powers over Wales's rail network. Though I note, as was raised yesterday in this Chamber, the Counsel General has said that the Welsh Government is open to pursuing a legal challenge against the UK Government for its refusal to give us our consequentials, which I would welcome. I was disappointed that the First Minister yesterday failed to confirm that such an avenue would definitely be pursued equally if a future Labour Government failed to reclassify this project. I note the First Minister has said that an incoming Labour Government will have many demands on its purse strings. They will indeed. But this is not a hypothetical future project, a decision over whether to embark on which is still to be made; it is a question of correcting a historic injustice, a mistake that's already been made, a trick that has already been played. It is a project for a railroad that neither starts where it was meant to begin, nor ends where its destination was due to be, but at no point in its journey, at no juncture nor joining, has Wales been given the money we deserve. It is money we must demand from whoever is in Government in Westminster. They owe us this money. It is rightfully ours, and they need to pay up.

This vote this evening in our Senedd is another chance for us in Wales to affirm that Wales demands the money that's due to us from HS2, that Westminster should give us back our billions.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Natasha Asghar to move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Welsh Conservatives have long called for Wales to receive consequentials from HS2, and that position hasn't changed. My colleagues and I have raised this issue with our counterparts in Westminster on numerous occasions in the past and will continue to make the case to them. There's no denying that the action we saw from our Prime Minister last week in relation to HS2 will definitely bring big benefits to Wales. However, as is expected, that's not good enough for Plaid Cymru. But then again, it is expected that the nationalists will be criticising us from the sidelines as per usual—

Will you take an intervention?

Go for it.

Just to ask for clarification, which announcements would benefit Wales?

We are waiting, as the Conservative Party are, for the spending review, when, hopefully, we'll be able to get more clarity in relation to the spending that we'll be receiving in relation to HS2, going forward.

Let's remind ourselves that by axing the Birmingham-to-Manchester leg of HS2, some £36 billion has been freed up, with the UK Government committing to spending that money on transport projects that will benefit far more people in far more places, far more quickly. One of those projects is the electrification of the main line in north Wales, a move welcomed with open arms by many in the area, and I'm sure many Members from north Wales will agree to that as well. I live in and represent south-east Wales, but having spoken to a lot of people who live in the region of north Wales over the past few months, many have felt in the past that, unfortunately, the Labour administration here forgets north Wales even exists. So, it's great to see the UK Government is doing something for the area. [Interruption.] I will, but this will be the final one. I'm giving you the chance to ask.

Do you agree with me that it's become clear since that back-of-a-fag-packet announcement about the north Wales railway line that there's no such promise to electrify the north Wales railway line? It was an attempt to get a headline that has disintegrated since.

I don't think so at all. I don't think it's a back-of-a-fag-packet at all. I think the Prime Minister certainly has great plans going forward: £1 billion is going to be coming in to electrifying north Wales, which will definitely provide benefits to the people and residents of north Wales, as well as businesses, as well as industries, and we will get more factual information about the breakdown of how it's going to look. I'll be honest; I don't have the feasibility study in front of me, sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer, but as time goes by, we will find more out.

Anyway, I'd like to carry on, if that's okay with you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The £1 billion, as I mentioned, electrification of the main line will bring parts of north Wales within an hour of Manchester. As I stated, it will be beneficial to the local residents as well as businesses. Not only that, but it will lead to more punctual, reliable journeys on the route between Crewe, Warrington, Chester, Llandudno and Holyhead. It's also worth pointing out that the spend on rail in Wales since 2010 has jumped to £2.136 billion following this latest investment. And that's not all: unlike the Labour administration here, the UK Conservative Government is actually investing in vital infrastructure. That investment will in turn mean consequential funding coming to Wales. Personally, I would like to see that money go straight to Network Rail, and I've said that before, and not land in the Welsh Government coffers, but sadly, that's not going to happen.

Is it any wonder I'm worried about these vast sums being put into this financially reckless Government's bank account? They've been wasting millions of pounds straight from the public purse pursuing pet projects such as 20 mph speed limits, expanding this place, and buying farms for friends. Despite me seeking assurances from the Deputy Minister previously that it won't be squandered in this Government's usual style, he didn't commit previously. So, just where is this extra funding going to be spent? That's what I would like to know. We all know it won't be spent on building vital new road projects such as the M4 relief road, a third Menai crossing, or even a Chepstow bypass, as the Deputy Minister put a stop to road building as part of his eco crusade.

This time last week, we were in the Chamber discussing and debating buses and the problems facing the bus industry, so why doesn't this Government use some of the money to support our long-suffering bus passengers? This Labour Government could have used it to encourage people back onto buses by capping fares at £2, as I've consistently called for again and again. This Labour Government could have used it to create more electric vehicle charging points across Wales. This Labour Government could have used it to provide better facilities for heavy goods vehicle drivers across Wales. And of course, this Labour Government could axe its anti-driver agenda and start investing in our roads again to give Wales a fit-for-purpose transport infrastructure. But I'm sure Labour Ministers will completely disregard all of my suggestions, and find an alternative use for this money, like using it to prop up Cardiff Airport, give Cathays Park another costly makeover, or forking out thousands of pounds at a swanky restaurant in New York again.

Like I said, Deputy Presiding Officer, the Welsh Conservatives want to see HS2 reclassified, with consequential funding for Wales, but the benefits to Wales of scrapping the Birmingham-to-Manchester leg of HS2 cannot and should not be ignored. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to move formally amendment 2 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

The HS2 saga, I think it's fair to say, is a study in a host of different things. It tells you everything you need to know about how not to handle a major infrastructure programme, how not to overpromise and underdeliver, how not to pitch one community against another, and for this most unequal United Kingdom, it's a cherry-on-top celebration of how to show complete injustice towards one of its constituent parts.

The Conservatives will often tell you that people don't really care where powers lie, that people aren't interested in constitutional matters, but let me argue in the clearest possible terms that what we've seen over HS2 and what the people of Wales I think have come to appreciate is why it is so important to give Wales, in financial, in transport policy, and in constitutional terms, the fairness that it deserves.

There are other examples, of course, like the injustice of not having control over the Crown Estate. The fact that we don't have control over our water resources is another example. But HS2 encapsulates what happens when the UK Government can do as it chooses in relation to Wales and how this unequal devolution has a negative impact on the people of Wales. The fundamental problem here is the designation of HS2 as an England-and-Wales project. Scottish railways and Northern Irish railways are devolved, so they received consequentials as a result of HS2—the part that's already been built, London to Birmingham, or at least is in the process of being built. But England and Wales's railways are counted as one. Constitutionally, this was a railway for us too. So, although there wasn't an inch of HS2 in Wales, it was an England-and-Wales proposal. Using the new Crewe station—'Great, you in north Wales will benefit'. I can promise you that cutting a few minutes off the journey from Crewe to London is not our priority in north Wales. And, of course, the Crewe link has now disappeared entirely. HS2 wasn't a scheme that would benefit Wales. It never was, and economic studies such as the KPMG study showed very clearly that HS2 would damage the Welsh economy. But again, there wasn't a penny of compensation.

I think it's also important to remind people that it wasn't just a matter of us not getting the billions of pounds in consequential funding that we were owed. Money that could have gone on projects to improve railways in Wales was tied up—and has been for years—in HS2, and as that spending on HS2 increased, the money available for spending on rail in Wales went down. And this comes on top of historic underspending on rail in Wales. A recent study by the Wales Governance Centre showed that Wales's rail infrastructure was underfunded to the tune of over £0.5 billion—£514 million—from 2011 to 2020, as a direct consequence of our lack of devolved powers. We can trace the pattern of underinvestment back over a longer time period. It's Professor Mark Barry who highlighted how the Welsh rail network has received between 1 per cent and 2 per cent of total UK rail enhancement investment over the past 20 years when we're 5 per cent of the UK population and 11 per cent of the UK rail network. I could go on. The recent—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. I noticed your call in your motion today calls for the electrification of all railway lines in Wales. I wonder whether you've got a costed figure for that, or whether that's just another figure off the back of a fag packet.

Do you want to tell me how much the electrification of the north Wales railway line would—[Interruption.] We know exactly how much electrification costs from the cost of the money that was not spent as it was promised to be spent on the line from Cardiff to Swansea. We know the cost of electrification. This is the back-of-a-fag-packet promise that was made by the Conservative Party, and it's disintegrated already. I could go on. A recent decision to include Network—[Interruption.] A recent decision to include Network Rail spending in the Department for Transport's DEL for Wales has led to a substantial decline in the comparability factor for wider transport-related consequentials, from 80 per cent to under 37 per cent. Simply put, that means that the underfunding of our dilapidated railway network is likely to be exacerbated in coming years, with an ever-widening gap between funding levels on rail infrastructure here in Wales and those in England and Scotland. What does that mean in practice? Five hundred quid a head on rail spending in Scotland in 2019-20, £450 in England, and £300 here in Wales—that's the reality. So, when the Conservatives say the limitations of Wales's devolved powers are something only constitutional anoraks are interested in, I'd suggest that it's something everyone has an interest in.

To conclude, it's for the benefit of everyone to understand the nature of the injustice that emerges from not having responsibility for our own transport infrastructure. It's incredible that the Labour Government back in the early days of devolution refused to take responsibility for the future of our railways—the biggest mistake in the history of devolution, as suggested by Professor Barry. It's unforgivable that the Conservatives can't for one second see that injustice around HS2. It's extremely frustrating that Labour agree with me on that but fail to pledge to undo that injustice. We should all be very angry indeed about the situation with HS2. We should all use that anger as the encouragement we need to fight for fairness for Wales—something that Plaid Cymru will always do.

Cancelling HS2 and announcing £1 billion to electrify the north Wales coast line is a pie-in-the-sky, headline-grabbing statement, pulled out of thin air with no scheme, strategy or plan, no discussion with the Welsh Government or those that have been working on the priority for rail projects, while also short-changing Wales of its proper funding yet again. Given the debacle of HS2 and the general propensity with which the UK Government breaks its promises, it's difficult to believe that this pledge will ever materialise. It's a statement to win voters, a bit like the free childcare policy, where there has also been a lack of investment in infrastructure in England over many years to enable it to happen—it's not been thought through.

A few years ago, I was told that electrification of the line would cost approximately £1 million a mile, and that it's impossible to electrify the whole of the north Wales coastline—there are tunnels and the historic monument of Conwy castle, there may have to be a battery combination, and it will take years of planning and problem solving to overcome those issues. So, although 'nice to have' is not the priority for organisations and businesses in north Wales, twice rail infrastructure bids were put to the UK Government for levelling-up funding and rejected. These priorities include the Deeside industrial park station, enabling railway access to thousands of jobs that they're desperate to get filled, getting freight off the line at Hanson Cement in Padeswood to enable more passenger journeys on the Wrexham-Bidston line and the Wrexham Gateway project. The bids were comprehensive and cost lots of valuable time and resources. Feedback from the Government at the UK level was that they were good, but available UK levelling-up funding was limited; there wasn't enough money, making the process and decisions very competitive.

To enable high speed and increased frequency in north Wales, many of the stations will need lifts, bridges and other safety measures putting in place—the same with the Wrexham-Bidston line. Railway bridges may need strengthening as well, to take speed in different areas. And then there's the capacity issue at Chester station that needs addressing to enable more services into north Wales. There's also the Traws Link Cymru west Wales rail campaign to reinstate the railway lines—to have a railway line running from Bangor in the north to Carmarthen in the south, and we met recently with Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn at the Senedd; he delivered a petition where he actually walked all the way from Bangor to Carmarthen. I believe that would cost £1 billion as well, and it's a high priority for people living in that area.

Maintenance needs to be addressed. There's been years of underinvestment in railway lines, and the UK Government is on a course of action to see a severe reduction in scheduled maintenance tasks, making the railways less safe. Network Rail will cut 1,850 maintenance jobs as part of the modernising maintenance programme. Many of the lines are in low-lying areas, as well as along the coastline, and will face flooding. We have Ash dieback, and recently tree pollen created an issue with filters on the Wrexham-Bidston line. We need more maintenance, not less. 

The Conservative UK Government is playing political games ahead of an election, instead of investing properly in Britain's public transport, and they're intent on holding Wales back by not giving the full consequential funding owed. Thank you.

I'd like to take this opportunity to speak on behalf of the people of Arfon. The constituency that I'm privileged to represent is suffering greatly because of insufficient public transport links, and the same thing is true for constituencies across Wales: the lack of public transport options that are reliable and effective is hindering our economic growth and the everyday lives of our constituents.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it's time for the UK Government to recognise that the current situation in terms of public transport in Arfon and Wales is entirely unacceptable, and it's time, therefore, for them to provide the funding that we're owed. Redesignating HS2 as an England-only project, and providing the consequential funding that Wales is owed, would be a huge step forward in terms of tackling the transport deficiencies that we face.

In Arfon our railway system is outdated and unreliable. About 60,000 people live in north Wales, and we are served by the north Wales coast line, which isn't the best of train services. I travel on it often—delays, cancellations, cold or hot trains, dirty toilets, no water, no seats, and so forth. That's part of everyday life for rail users in north Wales. And the Prime Minister has talked about electrifying the north Wales coastal line, but that won't happen. There's not even a business case for that, and by now, the north Wales line was just an example of what could happen in the wake of the cancellation of HS2 from Birmingham.

As well as the rail system, we urgently need investment in the bus network in Arfon. A report from the Bevan Foundation on poverty in Arfon that was published this summer, following a commission from my colleague Hywel Williams, the MP—the Bevan Foundation, in the report, does recognise the lack of access to transport as one of a number of challenges that is putting pressure on households in Arfon and increasing the likelihood of living in poverty. Our constituents depend on buses to go to work, to go to school and to access healthcare, but many of the bus routes face closure because of a lack of funding. And this is what one of my constituents said in speaking to the Bevan Foundation:

'Ceri is a young person from Nantlle who can't drive. At present, they follow a course in Llandrillo Menai College in Caernarfon. The course is undertaken during the day, and Ceri works at night in a restaurant in Caernarfon to earn money to sustain them and to help their family. Ceri lives with their family in Nantlle, but the last bus to the village leaves Caernarfon at 5.15 p.m., and this means that Ceri has to rely on lifts from family members to get home at night or, if they can't get a lift, they have to stay with their cousin, who lives in Caernarfon. Ceri would prefer not to be a burden on their family, but they don't have an option other than reducing their working hours, because the money that they earn isn't enough to rent their own place in Caernarfon.'

Redesignating HS2 as an England-only project and providing the consequential funding would be a huge boost for the people of Arfon and Wales, and for thousands of people such as Ceri from Nantlle.

To close, what does the HS2 fiasco mean? Well, to me, it emphasises three important points for us in Wales: first of all, how deficient the Barnett formula is; secondly, how disappointing the fact is that the Welsh Government didn't accept the proposal to devolve rail infrastructure entirely when it was on the table; and now the empty promise by Rishi Sunak to spend a billion on the north Wales line. No consultation with Wales, going over our heads entirely with something that isn't going to happen, and that emphasises how weak and fragile our devolution settlement is in an overcentralised capitalistic state.

As the tragicomedy of HS2 draws ever on, it's important that we consider the economic impact of transport and the denial of funding. And there are many ways to look at it. We can start, actually, with the Department for Transport's own assessment of the economic impact of HS2, which shows a net hit of £150 million to Wales's GDP, which yet again exposes the utter fallacy of the UK Government's argument that Wales will somehow benefit from a rail project based entirely in England.

As has been noted by the likes of the Productivity Institute, there is a direct correlation between the state of transportation links and economic prosperity. There's no coincidence that rural areas such as Powys, which have some of the worst transport links in the UK, also suffer from some of the lowest levels of productivity in the UK. The reasons for this are self-evident. Poor transport connectivity reinforces a less flexible and less mobile workforce, as well as hindering the potential for business growth. So, it's unsurprising in this respect that the recent survey by the Federation of Small Businesses showed that 63 per cent of the respondents reported frustrations with the current state of Wales's transport infrastructure, especially in terms of its contribution to increased costs, reduced profits and fewer customers. 

It's also important to stress that underinvestment in Wales's rail network does not exist in isolation. As noted by Professor Mark Barry, only 5 to 6 per cent of the UK Government's open market review investment, which itself is a crucial factor in attracting further economic investment, goes towards Welsh routes, despite the fact that our rail network accounts for 11 per cent of the UK total. The latest statistics from the Office of Rail and Road on regional rail usage also underline the extent to which the UK's rail network is aligned to service the economy of London and the south-east, at the expense of the rest of the nations and regions.

Of the 940 million rail journeys made in the UK between April 2021 and March 2022, 57 per cent were either made within London or involved journeys to or from London. This rises to over 75 per cent when journeys within, and to or from, the south-east are included. Meanwhile, less than 2 per cent of the total rail journeys in the UK were either made within Wales or to and from Wales, the second lowest proportion after the north-east, and should be contextualised once again against our 5 per cent share of the UK population and 11 per cent of the total UK rail network. 

To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, at its most fundamental level, the economy is about the connections between people, organisations and Governments. In this respect, the state of our rail infrastructure—which is thoroughly disconnected, dilapidated, and where all tracks lead to London, rather than between our own communities—serves as a fitting analogy for the poor health of our economy as a whole.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank Plaid Cymru for tabling the debate and the chance for us to debate in this Senedd the latest twist and turns of a shambolic UK rail policy. Can I just say to begin with to the Conservatives: is there nothing that this Government will do to Wales that they will not defend? This is, by any measure, a shambolic set of circumstances. There is no upside for Wales from this, and you are desperately trying to find one. And it, I'm afraid, completely undermines your credibility when the case you seek to advance is so poor. This is, I think, a situation we should all be concerned about in terms of how public policy is being conducted in this country. I take no pleasure from it at all.

Let me be clear: we want the whole of the Wales and borders line to be electrified. We worked on a cross-party basis in this Chamber to make the case for the electrification of the railway line to Swansea, and we were pleased when that was agreed, and it fell apart. And it fell apart because the UK Government and Network Rail had done none of the preparatory work you need to do to build a case for rail investment. There was no preparation done at all, and the costs ran out of control, and the UK Government broke its promise. And they've learnt nothing from that mistake. They're doing it again. They did it with HS2, and that's why they pulled so many legs off HS2—it now looks more like a pogo stick—and now they're suggesting to do the same for the north Wales main line. Just days after they made that random announcement, which not only did Network Rail not know about, Avanti Trains didn't know about, Transport for Wales didn't know about, the Department for Transport itself didn't know about this—. This was a Conservative political spectacle for their conference, with no workings out behind it, without any industry buy-in, and without any co-operation to make it in any way meaningful. 

So, I'm really disappointed that the Conservatives in this Senedd take it at face value, even though just days after making the announcement, the Prime Minister conceded it was just an example of what might be spent in the unlikely event this Conservative Government survives long enough to be able to spend it. We are not sure at all if there would be any consequentials for Wales that Natasha Asghar was claiming with confidence there would be—I don't know how she can; I suspect she's just making it up, because it's certainly not a position that the DfT has been able to confirm. We have no idea what status the Northern Powerhouse rail would be given, and whether or not it would be classified, as HS2 was, as an England and Wales UK project, which was designed to cheat us out of our reasonable share of it. 

Just 2 per cent of the railway line in Wales controlled by the UK Government—and let's be clear, this is is a non-devolved responsibility—is electrified, compared to about 40 per cent of the railway in England. And as Luke Fletcher rightly said, the whole system is designed to prop up the economy of London and the south-east, not about the needs of passengers all over Wales. In fact, the latest Network Rail plans for maintenance over it's next what they call control period 7, shows the UK Government body that Natasha Asghar’s so keen to give more money to, over the head of the Welsh Government, is planning a managed decline of the Welsh railway—a reduction in maintenance spending that will result in more signalling failures, more delays, slower speeds for trains and poorer services for passengers. So, that’s their priority for Wales. They can announce as many glitzy, empty promises as they like from the stage in Manchester, but the truth speaks for itself. They haven’t invested. They’ve come up with schemes that take money out of the Welsh economy, as Luke Fletcher said, and now they’re offering a fantasy announcement with nothing behind it. Don’t be fooled. [Interruption.] I’d be happy to take an intervention. 

What would it take to satisfy you, then, in terms of—? From a Prime Minister who came out and said, 'I will electrify the north Wales line'—what would it take? Come on—be honest, Deputy Minister. What would it take for you to be impressed and to welcome and have a bit of ambition for Wales? 

Okay, thank you. Thank you—

And just secondly as well—

I'd like to make progress now. 

—are you happy that the rolling stock—

I'd like to make progress now.

Gareth, you made that intervention.

Sure, sure.

What it would take for me to be impressed is if they stick to their word. They gave their word to electrify the railway to Swansea; they broke their word. You’re willing to take their word they’ll electrify the railway line to north Wales. You can’t trust their word, and the reason I know you can’t trust their word is because there are no workings-out behind it. This would take at least 10 years. It would cost at least £2 billion. There is no work done behind it. It’s a complete fantasy.

Instead, we have been working maturely and constructively with the Department for Transport in London. I’ve met Huw Merriman, the rail Minister, I’ve met Mark Harper, the transport Secretary, both of whom I thought were decent, honourable men, and we’ve agreed, worked with officials, on a joint set of priorities that the Department for Transport and the Welsh Government agree are sensible ways forward under the Wales rail board, itself a recommendation of the Conservative-led Welsh Affairs Committee. That rail board has come up with a list of priorities for north Wales. Electrification was not at the top of the list, because it can’t be delivered quickly and there’s no work behind it. Instead there are things that could be done that would actually help passengers in north Wales in the short and medium term, and that’s including upgrading services between Wrexham and Liverpool, unlocking the capacity constraints at Chester that are holding north Wales back, and improving line speeds on the north Wales main line. Now, that would actually mean something. That would be based on consensus, that would be based on analysis, that would be based on stakeholder approval, and they have done none of that. Instead they’ve come up with an eye-catching initiative that they backed down on within days. It is a contemptible way to treat Wales and the people we all represent, and I think it’s a disgrace for these benches to defend it simply because their party in London have announced it, even though nobody takes it seriously, especially the rail industry.

We instead have set up the Burns commission. It has done a sober piece of analysis. It’s about to publish its final report. It has engaged with stakeholders. It will have a list of schemes—road, rail, active travel—for north Wales, and what we need to do now is to work with the local stakeholders, with the UK Government, on a programme of investment to deliver that. That’s what Wales needs, not pie-in-the-sky announcements that have nothing behind them.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who participated in the debate.

I welcome that Natasha and the Conservatives are making the case to the UK Government for us to get this funding, though I cannot see how Mr Sunak’s announcements made last week would benefit Wales, especially when that announcement on the north Wales main line has disintegrated. No feasibility study has been conducted, evidently. I just don’t believe that jam tomorrow will ever become reality from that Government. But I do welcome the fact that you’re making this case. I hope that they’ll listen. I’m afraid that I won’t really hold my breath on it. But Rhun reminded us of how HS2 has been a study in how not to conduct an infrastructure project. This, I agree, is an example of how constitutional matters take on real-life immediate relevance.

The loss of the connection to Crewe does highlight what we've all known for years—Wales is never a priority for Westminster. It's never a priority for the parties in Westminster.

Carolyn talked us through the many complications that could ensue from hastily announced, unplanned-for projects. Mr Sunak's announcement on the north Wales main line was just one of those projects and he's already rowed back from it. 

Siân talked about the inadequate transport links in Arfon and how that is a barrier to economic growth. Delays, cancellations, trains being too cold or too warm, no toilets, no water—is it any surprise that so few people choose to use the trains in some parts of Wales where they're available? Those billions of pounds would do so much to transform the situation. 

For Luke, HS2 is a tragicomedy. And yes, we can laugh at the boldness, the audacity of the claims that a railroad outside our borders benefits us. If we didn't laugh, we'd cry, and maybe it's a cry that's needed—an outcry from Wales, that we demand, and that we demand that those demands will be met.

It's a shame, Dirprwy Lywydd, that, for a motion that has invited and united all of our parties in this Chamber, so few Members from other parties have been present for the debate. But I do welcome, and I mean that sincerely, I do welcome the contributions from all Members. 

The Deputy Minister set out why the UK Government has continued to break promises for rail projects—because they don't do the planning, or perhaps the projects are never intended to be kept to. But it's maddening that so many announcements and decisions have been made and unmade by Westminster without consultation with our Government or our Parliament. It is an insult to this legislature and all its Members. Now, we cannot allow that to be normalised or shrugged off. Wales deserves better than that. 

There can be no justification for Westminster's insistence that HS2 benefits Wales. It should be equally straightforward to say that whichever party has the power to put things right must do that. But I'd say again: decisions which determine our direction of travel in Wales, both literal and metaphorical, should be made in Wales. HS2 is a project that won't start when it was meant to and won't reach its intended destination. It's a metaphor that writes itself, but how can we right the wrong of the funding if not by demanding that Westminster Governments share a duty, an obligation, to give us the billions that we're owed? If it's good enough for Scotland, it's good enough for us.

I urge Members to support this motion, to say clearly, without qualification, to Westminster: we demand what is rightfully ours. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Item 8 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate—mental health. And I call on James Evans to move the motion. 

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar. 

Today, I stand before you to address a topic of great importance, a debate to mark that 10 October was World Mental Health Day and that greater action is needed on delivering a first-class mental health service here in Wales.

Mental health and well-being is not merely a medical issue. It's an issue that affects all elements of our lives. It's a shared challenge that we must confront together as a compassionate and supportive society, where no-one should suffer in silence or be afraid to ask for help. As some may know, one in four of us will experience a mental health problem at some point in our lives, so having the appropriate levels of support when needed is vitally important. Here in Wales, with our rich history and our vibrant culture, is a nation known for its resilience and community spirit. But, even in our close-knit communities, mental health issues affect countless people, whether that's directly or indirectly. In the face of this challenge we must move to a position where mental health is given the same status as physical health and where people are happy to discuss their challenges in an open and tolerant society. 

Firstly, we must break the stigma that surrounds mental health, just as we would with someone who is suffering from a physical ailment. Refraining from stigmatising those facing mental health struggles by fostering a culture of openness and acceptance, where individuals feel comfortable seeking help without fear or judgment, would be a major breakthrough in what we need to do here in Wales to shift that conversation altogether. We believe this begins with education, starting in our schools, where we teach our young people about mental health, resilience and the importance of seeking support, and, most importantly, being kind to one another.

We should all be well aware of the current state of the mental health and well-being of our young people and how it is key in their development. The pandemic caused serious problems for our children and young people, and the long-term effects of that are being felt now, so we need to make sure that, in our schools, we have that specialist support that those children need. However, despite the promises and the times we've heard it, time and time again, the number of children waiting four weeks or more for their first appointment with child and adolescent mental health services and mental health services in Wales is rising, and that trend must stop, because children shouldn't be getting to CAMHS treatment. Early intervention and prevention is far better than going to that acute service, and the whole-school approach that the Government is pushing needs to be strengthened to make sure that we prioritise the mental health of our young people. We must also ensure that there are the necessary resources available to those in need and that funding for mental health increases in real terms to meet the demands placed on mental health services across Wales.

It's an unfortunate reality that not everyone has access to the mental health services that they require. Our healthcare system should be better equipped to handle mental health issues, reducing waiting times and ensuring that no-one is left without help and support when they need it the most. According to Project HOPE, two thirds of people with mental health conditions do not receive the care that they need, so we all must do what we need to do here to make sure that people get the support they need and we need to make sure that more is done with the third and charity sector to make sure that we get that help right across the board.

Reflecting on where we are as a nation, I grow particularly concerned about the rise in loneliness. Loneliness is a subtle but dangerous threat in the realms of mental health, and, as a national survey highlighted, 13 per cent of people in Wales were found to be lonely. This figure has remained steady over the previous two years. And as we approach the winter months, we must also remember seasonal affective disorder, or SAD, or winter depression, as most of us know it. It affects one in three people in the UK, yet many people do not seek the support that they need to deal with that. So, I think it's incumbent on the Government to actually promote the help and support that people can get through those winter months to make sure that nobody is suffering at home on their own.

In Wales, there has been some progress in recent years, by investing in community-based services and providing some better mental health support for issues. And one thing we support on these benches is the NHS '111 press 2' service, which I and my group have welcomed as a positive step forward by the Minister, and we're very keen to know exactly how that roll-out is going and how many people that is supporting across Wales. However, there is still much more work that needs to be done. It is crucial that we continue to prioritise mental health funding and support as the well-being of our citizens is not only a moral obligation, but it's also a critical factor in the nation's overall prosperity.

One route that my group and I have been pushing for for many years is a purpose-built mental health Act for Wales. The Act would enable us to work within the unique health and social care system we have here in Wales, providing a bespoke approach to improving the mental health provisions that are more compatible with wider Welsh law and policy. For one, I want to make sure that all public bodies in Wales are offering mental health first aid training to their staff—that is something that should be an absolute bare minimum. And something else that I think the Government should look at is strengthening the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010, a key part of legislation that was brought forward here by a previous Conservative Member, Jonathan Morgan. It was very good for the time and I think that needs to be looked at again, at how we can strengthen that and make it better for the future. But one element that I do wish to touch on that is important to me and a number of Members in this Chamber is a specialist in-patient eating disorder unit here in Wales. I know the Welsh Government have a commitment in this area and I know the Minister is keen to push this, so I'd be keen if she could provide a response on this matter to see where we are with this, because I think people have waited long enough for this service to be delivered here in Wales.

In conclusion, mental health is not a problem that can be swept under the rug. It's an issue that affects everyone, so let's create a Wales where mental health is a priority, where individuals feel safe and encouraged to seek help and where we're united in our commitment to improving the mental health and well-being of our nation. Together, we can build a culture of openness in Wales, where everybody across our country has the opportunity to live a life that is mentally and emotionally fulfilling. Diolch, Llywydd.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. The Deputy Minister for mental health to move amendment 1.

Formally.

Formally, yes, it's being moved. 

Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendments 2 and 3, therefore.

Thank you.

Not formally, you can speak to the amendments.

I intended to. Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate, and thank you to the Conservatives for bringing forward such an important debate.

I've spoken often in this Chamber about the critical importance of basing our approach to healthcare upon a holistic and coherent preventative agenda that considers front-line services as one part of a broader, interconnected and interdependent whole. It is for this reason that Plaid Cymru has introduced an amendment that calls for a specific focus on perinatal mental health within the Welsh Government's new mental health strategy.

If we want to be serious about developing a resilient and effective preventative agenda, there is surely no better place to start that than at the literal start of life. Recent research from various quarters has emphasised the particular vulnerability of new and expectant parents to mental health issues, which include anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorders. As many as one in four women experience a mental health problem during pregnancy or in the first year after the birth of their baby. This equates to around 9,000 new mothers in Wales each year. Around one in 10 partners also experience a mental health problem during this period, and this ratio is significantly higher for partners of women who have mental health issues themselves.

The first 1,000 days of a child's life are instrumental in shaping their lifelong well-being. As such, a failure to identify and respond to perinatal mental health issues as soon as they manifest perpetuates and entrenches mental health issues, as well as related physical issues, throughout later life for parents and children alike. This naturally has profoundly detrimental implications, from societal and resourcing perspectives.

It's crucial, therefore, that mental health policies fully recognise how issues develop across interpersonal relationships, and the particular risks of problems being transferred from generation to generation. And, of course, there is a workforce and resource intervention here, too, which is underlined by the fact that inadequate provision of mental health support carries an estimated cost of £8.1 billion for each year of women giving birth. The sooner that issues can be resolved, the less pressure is imposed on the capacity of health services over the long term.

I was fortunate enough to discuss this matter over the summer with perinatal specialists, who stressed the need for continued and sustained investment in Welsh perinatal services, and for the Welsh Government's mental health strategy to provide a clear pathway for embedding relevant skills within the workforce.

This necessity is underlined by the fact that, at present, none of the seven perinatal mental health services in Wales fully meet national type 1 College Centre for Quality Improvement standards. The recent perinatal mental health in Wales project also found that 61 per cent of health professionals had not received any training on infant mental health. A proactive approach in this context can also be a vital element of efforts to tackle broader stigmas around mental health, particularly in relation to gaps in public awareness and education.

It stands to reason that the longer that mental health issues are neglected, the harder it becomes to engage with them collectively, as a society, in a compassionate and inclusive manner. While progress has been made in shining a light on perinatal mental health, thanks to the work of projects such as perinatal mental health in Wales, we can, and should, do more to ensure that parents and children aren't allowed to suffer in silence, and are able to access the right support when it's needed.

Investing in our perinatal mental health services is quite literally an investment in our future. If we can get this right, embedding the preventative agenda at the very start of life, we will not only ensure the long-term sustainability of our health services, we can also make good the ambition that I know we all share across this Chamber, of guaranteeing healthier and happier prospects for our children.

Finally, our short amendment, amendment two, goes to the heart of this issue: the shocking lack of understanding that accompanies mental ill health, from the health service itself, from employers, education providers and others. This lack of understanding results in greater harm and long-term damage. In fact, the Government's own amendment is indicative of this lack of understanding. It states:

'mental health continues to be the highest area of spending by the NHS in Wales.'

This is incorrect by its own measure. If we follow this assertion, we could claim that physical health is the highest area of spend in the NHS in Wales. Mental health isn't just one thing, as this debate has so far proven, and if we are true to the ambition of tackling the various forms of mental ill health, then we need to recognise this fact. Diolch.

Yesterday, we marked World Mental Health Day, a day when we celebrate how far society has advanced when it comes to talking about mental health. However, we know there is much more to be done. As James has already pointed out, one in four of us will experience mental health problems at some point in our lives, and there is no shame for people to talk about it and how they are feeling. Indeed, it's so important to talk. James is also right about that stigma surrounding mental health problems. It's one that just continues, and we have to do more as society to eradicate it.

Mental ill health, no doubt, has been exacerbated by the pandemic and life's challenges, like the cost of living and associated financial worries. Our rural communities suffer an increasing issue with mental health. We see this especially in the agricultural sector, with 36 farm suicides recorded in England and Wales during 2021. That is so terrible. Farmers and their families face many challenges that many people in other walks of life wouldn't comprehend, issues like, obviously, bovine TB and the devastating effects it has on farmers, their families and businesses; rural isolation, loneliness coupled with poor access to services can bring huge negative pressures on rural people, who feel trapped and forgotten.

More generally in society, data has found that a majority of people questioned felt that their mental health had become worse as a result of cost-of-living challenges, and an increasing number of people are feeling more depressed. As I alluded to earlier, financial pressures have a huge impact on the mental well-being of many individuals, leading to detrimental effects on themselves, their families and all of those closest to them.

We have to welcome the establishment of those interventions like the 24/7 NHS 111 line. Steps like that are providing really good support, and we need to move forward with more in that direction. But more action must be taken in Wales, especially considering the fact, as James pointed out also, of the number of children waiting for their first appointment for CAMHS in Wales rising to 14 per cent in July 2023.

I reiterate the calls from the Welsh Conservatives for a mental health Act here in Wales, and we do want to see a real-terms increase in mental health and well-being service spending and that eating disorder unit established in Wales. We need one of those here.

Employers have a duty of care to their staff, also, especially in challenging sectors. This is why we want to ensure that all public bodies in Wales offer mental health first aid training to staff. It is clear that we need more front-line support here in Wales and that the support that is available is publicised to increase awareness for those suffering. I think public bodies such as councils and health boards can do and should do more to explain what support is available from their organisations and help people deal with the challenges they face. That initial interaction with citizens who are suffering is so fundamental to how that person goes on to deal with their individual situations.

Steps are being taken in the right direction, I admit, by Welsh Ministers to deal with mental health, but the dire state of our NHS waiting lists is hindering any meaningful progress. We all need to be honest about the scale of the issue and its many facets and acknowledge that increased investment into mental health support is so fundamental to the well-being of society. The time for hollow rhetoric about support for mental health is over. We need more commitment and action, so I urge everyone here today to vote with us and support our motion to introduce a new mental health Act in Wales. 

I'm going to focus my contribution on adverse childhood experiences and mental health. ACEs are those stressful or traumatic experiences that occur in childhood and cause lasting harm, for example, sexual and physical abuse or growing up in a household with domestic violence, and they trigger a range of mental health issues—anxiety, depression, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, post-traumatic stress disorders, amongst many—all of which can have lasting and destructive impacts like drug and alcohol misuse. Indeed, the first Welsh ACE study published in 2016 identified the strong relationship between childhood trauma and poor health across the life course, including increased risk of those harming behaviours and low mental well-being, as well as early development of chronic disease. So, preventing and mitigating ACE, breaking the cycle of harm, is critical to any discussion on mental health.

I'd like to highlight the good work of Public Health Wales and the ACE hub, who work in this space with the aim of ensuring that Wales leads the way on ACE-free childhoods. The Welsh Government supports that work and other mental health interventions, like NHS '111 press 2', and specialist support through C.A.L.L., the community advice and listening line, and Meic.

Legislation is a part of it; for example, the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 recognised children who see, hear or experience the effects of domestic abuse as victims in their own right, which was a landmark change, especially when you consider that one in five children witness abuse at home. But recognition without support is impotent, and funding for—and therefore access to—specialist domestic abuse support for children is tight and patchy. Last year, I commissioned with Welsh Women's Aid a report on provision here in Wales, and our findings, published in 'A Duty to Support', found pockets of good practice, but gaps that have to be filled. But more widely, mental health is affected by life changes, circumstances and traumatic events, and addressing adverse childhood experiences is fundamentally a question of the wider social and economic context of family life.

Wales’s first mental health crisis helpline for children and young people who are in need of urgent support is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and the service has received funding through the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru, and the Bro Myrddin Wellbeing Hwb provides round-the-clock bespoke mental health provision for children and young people, in the right environment, at a time when they need it most. Bro Myrddin provides a safe space for children and people who present in crisis, preventing distressing and unnecessary admissions to A&E and mental health wards. Dedicated therapeutic and clinical practitioners will work with children and young people to provide solutions and focused interventions to de-escalate and avoid the need for referrals to secondary mental health services in a calming and safe environment.

Alongside the new Carmarthen-based hub, the health board has collaborated with Mind Pembrokeshire and Adferiad to deliver children and young people’s sanctuary services in Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion, and those services are operated Friday to Sunday from 5 o'clock until 10 o'clock, and that provides a safe space for those aged 12 to 18 years to present in crisis or in mental health distress. Those are examples of really good proactive community-based facilities, Minister, and I welcome those, and I'm sure that what we would all like to see is those spread right across Wales in a timely and meaningful fashion.

I'd like to start by thanking my group, the Welsh Conservatives, for tabling this debate today, following World Mental Health Day yesterday. It gives us all an opportunity to talk about mental health and how vital it is that we address the mental health crisis in Wales. And there's much to do. I concur with a lot of what's been said today this Chamber, across the Chamber, but particularly what's been said by the Member for Monmouth and the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire so far. But concentrating on my shadow portfolio, I'd like to say that, as I visit schools around Wales, apart from additional learning needs, mental health is an area of real concern. The impact of the pandemic on our children and young people was significant. Since then, much has been promised by this Government, but little action has actually been taken—there's been no plan, no strategy. Significant moneys were promised, and, as I visit schools, what they say to me is, 'Where has it gone?' Because they don't know where it's gone.

Every single school that I've visited has a different approach and a different way of dealing with this and helping their learners with mental health issues. There are some great examples of best practice—I'm thinking of one school particularly in Newport in my region of South Wales East. Some are dealing with it in-house, and some are also bringing in organisations such as Mind to the schools.

But unfortunately, there are schools that don’t provide our learners with the support they need, with little or no strategy. And as you know, early intervention, Deputy Minister, is key. Schools just don’t have the money in their budgets to address mental health properly. We are seeing two thirds of children aged 7 to 11 concerned about their mental health and well-being—63.2 per cent. And whilst we predominantly worry about our secondary age children, it’s clear that a strategy for primary age children is needed too.

This postcode lottery of care and support for young people in our schools dealing with mental health problems is a dereliction of duty by this Welsh Government. It needs to be rectified before the problem escalates out of control. There needs to be a national strategy in schools in this regard, and the money, most importantly, to follow it. It’s great to see the '111 press 2' scheme, which I hope will go some way to help that, and it’d be useful to have a breakdown of who is actually using that as we go forward. However, that isn’t, as the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire said, enough to deal with the ever-worsening crisis that we have on our hands.

As we’ve seen in Rhyl just today, due to the lack of money in the school budget, the fact that there are not enough resources to provide the health and support for students has meant that the school has had to do something different by cutting their school hours, which is obviously far from ideal. It is vital that support networks and help is made available to everyone of all ages across Wales who need it. Mindsets and priorities on developing mental health strategies in the workplace, in our schools, in other educational facilities, need to change. Mental health doesn’t at the moment have that parity of esteem with physical health issues.

There needs to be greater education and awareness of what the issues are that commonly lead to people struggling, and an easy signposting strategy and training for people in organisations and schools put in place to be able to deal with what is presented to them. And I do believe that a mental health Act for Wales will go some way in addressing this. With worrying numbers presenting themselves, as referred to already and in our motion, it is essential that we do see that dedicated in-patient eating disorder unit in Wales. I’d also like to see that the children and young people and adult services within that are separated, for obvious reasons.

We are at a point where mental health first aid training should be the absolute norm now for businesses, organisations, schools and colleges and a fundamental part of teacher training. We should also be looking at a mental health absence code, as my leader, Andrew R.T. Davies, outlined last week, so that proper guidance can be there to support our schools and so that learners can be supported rather than penalised.

As someone who suffered a traumatic birth and received absolutely no support, I’m absolutely delighted to see, and fully support, Plaid’s amendment today on perinatal care. We do need to do all that we can in that regard. Health professionals who deal with people post birth need greater training because they have that direct access to parents at that critical time, and, of course, the children. The support needs to be there, reaching out to parents who actually need it.

What we’re seeing from this Welsh Government so far on mental health, I’m afraid, is making little impact. The direct knock-on effect of this, of course, in education is absenteeism, and the problem is escalating. And of course, we’re seeing minor mental health issues turning into really serious ones because of the lack of support when they need it initially.

The time for talking is now over. The time for action is now. I hope that you will support our Welsh Conservative motion today. Thank you.

Thank you so much to the Conservatives and to James Evans for proposing this motion. And can I also thank Plaid Cymru for their amendments? I particularly wanted to speak on amendment 3, which Mabon also highlighted, that is the need to prioritise perinatal mental health in the new mental health strategy. We obviously have significant issues around perinatal mental health. I am the chair of the cross-party group on children and families, and Jenny Rathbone chairs the cross-party group on midwifery. We had a joint meeting recently, looking at the first 1,000 days, and were joined by practitioners and academics, looking at those first 1,000 days and how important it is. We know that this foundational window represents both a time of opportunity and a period of vulnerability.

Maternal mental health issues are common and can be extremely harmful, not only for mothers but for the wider family. But a mother's mental health is an infant mental health issue as well. The emotional health of a baby begins before birth, especially in the second and third trimesters. Supporting pregnant women's mental health helps lay the foundation for an infant's long-term social, emotional and cognitive development. The relationship goes both ways, and is self-reinforcing. We heard at the cross-party group about the bidirectionality of mental health, between the infant and the mother. Responsive, consistent, sensitive relationships can provide the best possible start, with advantages that persist throughout life, which Mabon referred to as well. That's why the first 1,000 days are so critical.

Make no mistake; investing in perinatal mental health is about saving lives as well. Maternal Mental Health Alliance's 2022 report stated that maternal death due to mental health problems is increasing across the UK, and suicide has tragically—this is quite shocking and I asked my researchers to double-check this—become the leading cause of death in the first year after birth. We also know that there are significant inequalities in the risks women face regarding their mental health, with young mothers at particular risk of mental illness during pregnancy and after birth, and postnatal depression is up to twice as prevalent in teenage mothers compared to those over 20. If we consider just the financial toll alone, the Royal College of Midwives estimates that each case of perinatal depression costs society £74,000. But behind this staggering amount of money lie countless stories of struggle and suffering.

To finish, I do welcome the commitment by the Welsh Government to keep it as a priority in any future mental health plan, but we must do more around perinatal health and infant mental health as well. If we don't provide mothers with support during those first 1,000 days, including pre birth, then we need to ensure that we have that early support after pregnancy. The impacts can ripple outwards throughout a child's life, destabilising families and straining our healthcare responses. So, if I may ask the Minister perhaps to outline what initiatives the Welsh Government is taking to ensure that both infant and maternal mental health issues are addressed, and that we focus in on those first 1,000 days. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Following on from World Mental Health Day, when I did raise a question only yesterday on my concerns about my constituents being able to access mental health services, I wish to start with a trio of positives. I welcome the establishment of the 24/7 NHS Wales '111 press 2' service; the £84.5 million plan to create a new in-patient mental health unit at Glan Clwyd Hospital; and amazing work undertaken by charities across Wales on mental health. The DPJ Foundation's Share the Load 24/7 confidential counselling referral service, which operates especially for those who work in agriculture, has supported over 500 farmers across Wales so far, and this support is so desperately needed. There are—

Would you take an intervention?

Yes.

Do you also recognise the work that the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution and the Farming Community Network do in this area? Because there are more mental health charities than just the DPJ Foundation across Wales. 

Yes, absolutely, and it's really incumbent that we do have that support. Every single person helping our farmers and their families, during some pretty tough times of late, needs to be commended. Thanks, James.

There are over 600 Samaritans volunteers across Wales, who respond to calls for help every day of the week by telephone, e-mail, text and in person at branches and events across the country. In Aberconwy, we have Conwy Mind, a charity that has over 35 years' experience of supporting better mental health and well-being across Conwy county. They have amazing programmes: Mums Matter, which is a friendly and relaxed nine-week group for new mums who are finding things hard and need support; Living Life to the Full, a free seven-week course that aims to help you better understand your feelings, build resilience and develop coping strategies to support with day-to-day stresses; and Active Monitoring for young people. I'm sure that every Member in this Chamber could list examples of exceptional mental health support provided by charities in their areas too.

I ask you to consider this: imagine how much worse things could be in Wales if we did not have the incredible work of the third sector. On behalf of my constituents, I would like to thank all those charities providing care. But I would be pleased to hear assurances today that the Welsh Government will do all it can to ensure strong support for them and efficient co-operation between the medical and third sector. Too often, these charities work really hard with very little money and very little support from the Welsh Government. That is the feedback that I get. With one in four of us expected to experience a mental health problem at some point in our lives, there could be a serious crisis in this country. Should we not empower our residents to understand and combat mental health in its early stages? When I see families presenting in my office, it's heartbreaking to see children worrying about things that I didn't even know about at their ages but are so prevalent now.

The number of children waiting more than four weeks for a first appointment with mental health services in Wales is rising. Child and adolescent mental health services waiting lists rose 14 per cent in July 2023. In north Wales, 33 per cent of sCAMHS patient pathways are waiting over four weeks for a first appointment. But I have people who are waiting over 12 months also, Deputy Minister. When they can get a place, residents with eating disorders are being sent from north Wales to England for specialist support. And this is so hard on them and their families. We can and we must do better. I can think of no greater way of this Welsh Parliament improving the nation's mental health and ensuring that the best possible strategies are in place.

I call and echo the calls made today that we have a new mental health Act here for Wales. This should include provision for a mother and baby unit in north Wales for mothers with severe postnatal mental health. I applaud each member of the Betsi board's perinatal mental health service team for walking 165 miles, simply to highlight the distance from their base in north Wales to the country's only specialist mental health mother and baby unit in Swansea. Their efforts and calls for help in north Wales are not solved simply by a unit that will open next year in Cheshire. This Parliament and your Welsh Government should aspire for better. The third sector is delivering free mental health support to each corner and constituency of this country. We need you to do the same. We cannot have people with mental health issues having to travel out of Wales or wait months for public health support. Diolch.

Thank you for presenting this debate, which I think is a very interesting one. I think that the Conservatives seem to have a bit of an obsession about CAMHS waiting lists. Clearly, we need professional mental health services when things are becoming really acute, but in most cases, we need to be endeavouring to help young people get over their anxieties and traumas, which so many young people growing up suffer from, without obtaining the label of having had a mental illness. I think that is really, really important. We want school to be a haven from the conflicts that may be going on at home or elsewhere. We need to help young people know how to keep themselves safe. The internet offers lots of exciting insights into the world beyond our communities, but it also poses lots of hazards, whether it's pornography, obsessive compulsive behaviours, or bullying. We need to help young people keep themselves safe and navigate these hazards, and know when to withhold, or withdraw, or seek help.

Laura Anne Jones spoke about a postcode lottery in schools. I feel that it's easy to say that, and it's really important that we challenge schools that are not providing the well-being support, where we have evidence that they are failing in their well-being duties—so, whether we challenge the headteacher, we challenge through Estyn, through the education leads into local authorities, or, where all that fails, with the Minister for education or the Deputy Minister for mental health. I personally can recall one school in my constituency that didn't deal well with a young person with an eating disorder, and this was, obviously, complicated by the lockdown, and, if she'd only relied on the school, I'm afraid things could have ended really badly. But she did have very good counselling services, happily, and she is now pursuing a successful university career.

But I think that we really do need to be aware of some of the things that can go badly wrong. When I was in Liverpool this weekend, I met far too many people who had lost loved ones to suicide, triggered by the shame and despair caused by their gambling addiction. And many of you will have visited the drop-in this afternoon, in the dining room upstairs, and the excellent work that is being done by YGAM and other gambling charities, to try and help young people confront these dangers, which are so easy to fall into, given that so many children's games actually encourage you to gamble, because you've always got to get to the top of the tree, and you can buy tokens to improve your likelihood of getting there, and, from there, it leads into these other things. We know that gambling causes immense amount of harm, and so I'm very pleased to see the work that they're doing in schools, to try and protect children. I recall, in Liverpool, one couple revealed that their son committed suicide after his parents had sent him some money, presumably because he felt just too ashamed to tell them that the reason he had run out of money was because everything he touched was just going on gambling. And I heard other stories of people spending all their benefit money the minute they got hold of it. So, many, many lives are being destroyed by gambling, and that's something that I feel we should do something about, on another day.

But, meanwhile, I just want to highlight a service that exists in Cardiff and the Vale, which is the Recovery and Wellbeing College, which is the only Recovery College in Wales. The Recovery College offers self-help to anyone who has lived experience of mental health challenges, and that could be somebody trying to support somebody with a mental health challenge, or it could be somebody who knows that they need help. And because it's an open-door policy, it means you're not on a waiting list; you're ringing up, and finding out what is the course that's going to help them deal with the problem that they have. And I find that a fantastically valuable service, and I hope that we can see the extension of the Recovery College to other parts of Wales.

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate, and I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this debate today.

I've just got three points that I'd like to raise with the Deputy Minister. First of all, in regard to what Jenny Rathbone has already spoken about—and many others, for that matter—the need for greater support so that young people don't have to fall into the care of CAMHS, the Education Committee at Westminster last month produced a very important report, a very interesting report, regarding absenteeism, and concluded that significant measures need to be taken in England to support young people's mental health, and that new legislation is required. I'd very much welcome any observations that the Minister's officials may have on that report, because it certainly tallies with what we've been finding on the Children, Young People and Education Committee regarding absenteeism—the link with poor mental health. And, essentially, what's required is better mental health support before the point at which young people have to get the support from CAMHS, and that can be provided by fully qualified and trained counsellors in schools. Just because not all young people may be appropriately directed towards a trained therapist doesn't mean that a therapist shouldn't be available for every young child in school. So, it would be very helpful to have any feedback from the Welsh Government regarding that report, which, as I say, tallies very much with the reports that the children and young people committee in the Senedd produced.

Secondly, I'd very much welcome the Deputy Minister's observations on the need for legislation to come forward at the UK level in the King's Speech in November. The Mental Health Act 1983 really does need to be revised, and I'd very much welcome any comments regarding that particular matter from the Deputy Minister. Indeed, I'd ask the Welsh Government that if no new mental health Bill is forthcoming, then I would very much welcome action here in Wales, and I look forward to hearing what action may be brought forward by the Welsh Government in the event that the Mental Health Act is not revised.

The Deputy Minister to contribute—Lynne Neagle. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank Darren Millar for bringing forward this debate today? Yesterday was World Mental Health Day, an opportunity for all of us to reflect on what more we can do to improve mental health and well-being, although, as I've said to James Evans previously, every day is mental health day for me. This comes at an opportune time, as we're currently developing our successor strategies to 'Together for Mental Health' and 'Talk to me 2', our suicide and self-harm prevention strategy. We've already undertaken extensive work to assess the impacts of these strategies, and worked with stakeholders, partners and people with lived experience during a pre-consultation period to listen to views and help us shape the new strategies. I expect to be able to publish these for consultation before the end of the year, and I would like to thank everyone who has engaged with this work to date. 

I would also like to thank the Members for welcoming the establishment of '111 press 2'. The service is now available in every health board in Wales, providing urgent mental health support to people of all ages, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This is a significant service transformation to improve mental health support. Over 30,000 people have accessed the service, and 97 per cent of callers report a reduced level of distress following the call.

I'd like to turn now to address some of the points in the original motion. Firstly, in relation to suicide and self-harm, can I be clear that there is nothing more important to me than preventing people dying by suicide? When we talk about suicide rates, I am acutely aware that every single death by suicide is an immense tragedy that devastates families, friends and whole communities. Now, whilst the latest data does show a small increase from 2020-21, this will be impacted by backlogs in inquests, especially during the pandemic period. And because the numbers involved are thankfully small, it does mean the figures are prone to year-on-year fluctuation, but the overall trend is that the rate is largely constant.

Will you take an intervention? 

Sure. 

Thank you for taking an intervention. Just on that particular point of the years that you mentioned there, very sadly, in my family, we lost a grandparent to suicide during the COVID pandemic, and it left many of us wondering why at that point. So, I wonder, with that as an example in mind, with the COVID pandemic in particular, whether the Government has yet properly considered the impact of the pandemic and the measures taken in the pandemic on the mental health of our citizens, and whether some of the issues we're seeing now may have been exacerbated because of the actions through the pandemic. I wonder what lessons you think we may have learnt as a result of our response to the pandemic, in particular on the mental health of the citizens we represent.

Well, thank you for that, and I'm very sorry to hear that you've lost a member of your family to suicide. I do think we need to be really careful in ascribing reasons for suicide, because suicide is a very complex thing, and there is very seldom one reason for somebody taking their own life. One of the points I was going to make today is that we all have a responsibility to talk about suicide in a really appropriate and responsible way, and I wanted to remind Members of the guidance issued by Samaritans Cymru for World Suicide Prevention Day, which asks all of us as Members to be really careful in how we talk about suicide. The issues around the pandemic are complex and will be covered by the public inquiry, and I certainly can’t do justice to them in this debate.

We have in Wales developed real-time suicide surveillance, and I can assure Members that deaths by suicide are monitored on a monthly basis, which informs our preventative approach, but also enables a rapid response if needed. Last year, I convened our cross-government suicide and self-harm prevention group, which is supporting the development of the new suicide and self-harm prevention strategy. Our aim is to provide support sooner to prevent escalation, but I am in no way complacent about suicide and self-harm. That is why we are developing the new strategies.

On children’s waiting times, latest performance figures for local primary mental health services for June show 69.9 per cent of mental health assessments undertaken within 28 days from referral for people aged under 18. This is an increase of 12.4 percentage points compared to the previous month, and an increase of 19.6 percentage points compared to the same period last year. On specialist CAMHS, at the end of August, 74.5 per cent of children and young people on patient pathways on the current waiting list are waiting less than 28 days from referral. The numbers of children and young people waiting for an sCAMHS first appointment at the end of August was the lowest since reporting began in August 2019, and, Janet, I do not think you can have any children who are waiting a year, and if you have, please write to me and I will follow that up.

So, we have seen improvements, but I understand the need to ensure that health boards meet those targets on a sustainable basis. They’ve all developed trajectories that include tackling waiting times and improving performance, and these are monitored rigorously on a monthly basis by the NHS executive. I absolutely agree that mental health should be treated with the same priority as physical health. We invest heavily in mental health in Wales. We have a published strategy setting out our approach to improvements, and my own post as Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being is a clear demonstration of the importance we place on this area.

On funding as part of our programme for government commitment to prioritise investment in mental health, we’ve invested additional resources of £50 million last year rising to £75 million extra this year, and that’s on top of the mental health ring-fenced budget to local health boards, which is £774 million.

The motion calls on us to introduce a new mental health Act for Wales. As I’ve previously told the Chamber, we wanted to participate in the UK Government changes to the Mental Health Act. This matters because, alongside changes to devolved mental health functions, the draft Bill that was published includes change to reserved areas, such as those relating to criminal justice. And unfortunately, Ken Skates, we do not now expect that legislation to proceed, so we have started working with our partners to identify alternative ways of progressing recommendations from the Wessely review.

Turning now to eating disorders, over 90 per cent of people requiring treatment are currently seen in Wales and, wherever possible, in their own communities. For the small number of people requiring more specialist care, we have established arrangements with healthcare providers in England. I’ve commissioned the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee to review ED provision in Wales and to explore options for a specialist unit here. However, we are also developing an interim solution, and I expect there to be adult eating disorder beds available in Wales imminently.

Turning now to the Plaid Cymru amendments, which I ask you to oppose. Firstly, on education, whilst there's historically been a lack of education and understanding, the Government has taken sustained action on this over an extended period. This includes our whole-school approach, which seeks to embed good emotional and mental well-being throughout schools in Wales; our new curriculum, which has health and well-being at its core; and our continued support for the Time to Change campaign—the national campaign to end stigma faced by people with mental health problems. And Laura, I'm surprised to hear you make such strong criticisms of our whole-school approach, when, as a member of the committee, you will be aware that we are spending well over £12 million a year—every young person from age 6 and above has an entitlement to school counselling in Wales, unlike in England; we've rolled out child and adolescent mental health service's in-reach teams to every school in Wales. So, I really question the depth of your research on this. I absolutely accept that we've got to provide more consistency, and that is something myself and the Minister are working on.

Just to conclude, I agree entirely on the importance of perinatal mental health, and, Jane, you're aware of my passion for infant mental health, and both will be a priority in our new strategy. However, the rigid and inflexible approach to staffing advocated by the Plaid amendment restricts the ability of health boards to make best use of their resources, and can be counterproductive, which is why we are opposing it today.

So, mental health remains a top priority for this Government. I look forward to consulting on our new strategies later this year, and I hope all Members in this Chamber will engage with that consultation. Diolch.

I call on Sam Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. And firstly, I'd like to start by thanking all Members for their contribution today. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why I got into politics—to be able to discuss a serious matter like this in what I would say is a grown-up, methodical way, and paying tribute to the seriousness of what it is that we debate.

James Evans, in opening our debate this afternoon, talked about yesterday being World Mental Health Day—and every day, actually, is world mental health day, because it affects us all, be that directly or indirectly, as James said. A quarter of us will see a mental health problem, and we need to make sure that there is support there for those who need it when they need it. Mental health and physical health should be given the same and equal standing—and that's something that really resonates in terms of the stigma that still, unfortunately, is associated with mental health at this time. So, James came up with a statistic he mentioned, that two thirds don't receive the help they need when they need it. That's really quite telling of the seriousness of this. And Peter Fox, in his contribution, talked about how far we've come on the journey in discussing mental health and breaking down that stigma, but, indeed, how far we still have to go in being able to support those who require support as and when they need it.

There were uniform congratulations and warm welcomes to the '111 press 2' initiative; I think that has been a great success. One Member was asking for the data relating to that service, and I can see the Deputy Minister nodding along. I think the data around the '111 press 2' service and who is using it at what times of day et cetera would help to paint a picture of Wales's mental health at this time.

Mabon ap Gwynfor talked about a holistic and preventative system of services around mental health, focusing specifically on perinatal mental health as a priority. I'm pleased to say that we will be supporting Plaid Cymru's amendments this afternoon. I think it's absolutely imperative that new parents—. In that moment of absolute joy that can come with childbirth, there is always potentially a shadow, a cloud that follows them after such happiness and joy. And I think we need to ensure that there is the service available for new mothers and fathers at that time, and that the skills are there in the workforce to make sure that that is the case. And I think it's interesting that Mabon made the point as well in terms of the classification of mental health spend and physical health spend. I think the reason why we will not be supporting the Labour amendment today is because we do think that classification is unjust in terms of how that spend is allocated. And we do want to see, as Mabon said, happier and healthy children, and that's something that I think we can all agree on here.

Peter Fox, returning to his contribution, brought a spotlight on agriculture, something that's incredibly close to me in my portfolio and in my personal life. Janet and James mentioned the DPJ Foundation, the Farming Community Network, the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution and, I'd like to add, Tir Dewi there too—four charities doing immense work in rural Wales, supporting, bilingually, farmers who are, as Peter said, in isolated circumstances, operating heavy, dangerous machinery, where, unfortunately, there are things in their hands that can sometimes make that decision to end their lives, unfortunately, seem more accessible to them. And thanks to the work of those charities for what they're doing in really providing that support.

Will you give way?

I'm happy to give way.

Giving reference to charities, speaking with me at both the Royal Welsh Show and their event in the Senedd yesterday on World Mental Health Day, member-led mental health charity Adferiad told me—and I'm quoting, because I want to be accurate—that we need to move away from police implementation to the Right Care Right Person operational model developed by Humberside Police, which changes the way that the emergency services respond to calls involving concerns about mental health. However, they told me that although they're working with third sector and statutory bodies and that this is being implemented across England, it doesn't apply in Wales, currently, but they're talking with the Welsh Government about it. Will you join me in encouraging the Welsh Government to respond positively to the request that Wales introduces that model?

I absolutely will, and I'm very happy to support any charity that is working in this sector and providing vital services towards that. I think this touches upon what Laura Anne Jones said in her contribution with regard to best practice being available; if there is best practice in any corner of Wales, or any corner of the United Kingdom, we should be open and accepting of that best practice to ensure that that can be rolled out uniformly across Wales, so that we don't have a postcode lottery when it comes to mental health provision in Wales.

I'd like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to Joyce Watson as well for her work with regard to domestic abuse and being an advocate for those who've suffered domestic abuse. And the stark statistic that one in five children witness domestic abuse—that's horrific. That shows that we, as a society, have more to do in supporting the family nucleus, supporting each other and being a beacon for being better people, and that starts in the Chamber here and I hope that we can advocate for that across our communities. And ACE as well—adverse childhood experiences—and that 2016 study that Joyce mentioned with regard to the link of wider illnesses as you get older and a trauma that a child suffers. I think that's pertinent. If we're able to reduce ACEs or even get rid of ACEs altogether, then that leads to a healthier, happier population here in Wales. And obviously, the Bro Myrddin Hwb project that Joyce mentioned, which is in my constituency as well, a 24-hours-a-day mental health hub for young people—a fantastic provision that is being used and utilised well, and I think that is testament to those who launched and run that.

Jane Dodds, in your contribution, again, you focused on perinatal mental health and your work as chair of the cross-party group for children and families, and on liaising with Jenny Rathbone as chair of the nursing and midwifery cross-party group. That first thousand days. Now, that's something that I've not heard before, that's something that I need to spend time learning. I'm not a parent myself, but that first thousand days and the bidirectional relationship between parent and child and how they can feed off of each other's energy, as it were, I think that's something that's really important and shows the need for strong family connections and that nucleus that that provides for the child being incredibly important. And that cost, when it comes to postnatal depression, of £74,000, a societal cost—it's horrific that we're able to put a cost on a mental health issue, but that just shows the stark reality of it.

Janet Finch-Saunders, again, celebrated the work of '111 press 2' and highlighted the charities across Wales and in her part of the world paying special tribute to the role of the third sector, and I think that's really, really important. One of the discussions from this side of the Chamber this afternoon was about that postcode lottery, that access, that distance to services and treatment, and I think Janet touched on that eloquently in terms of if someone is requiring treatment, they need their family around them, their support network, their safety net. If that service is too far away and they're not able to rely on that family or those friendship groups to give them support, then that often exacerbates some of the problems that come with mental health provision.

I think Jenny Rathbone's point with regard to CAMHS and waiting lists and early interventions is a really interesting one. We don't want to just rely on CAMHS being there as a first port of call, but we need to understand as well that some things can be dealt with by early intervention, but we still require that CAMHS service for those that do need it who have specific needs that are required. I absolutely agree that we need that early intervention, but that doesn't mean that we don't need the CAMHS as well, and I think Jenny would agree with that.

Absolutely, again, raising the point around the internet and social media and the access that children have. YGAM today—I had a really interesting discussion with them as they hosted their drop-in. I think it's really pertinent that we take a look at what children can access online, especially around gambling, be that starting down the beach at the little slot machines that are 2p apiece—how that can start a relationship with gambling and moves forward.

Ken Skates, to close the debate, mentioned again, as Jenny Rathbone mentioned, support for young people not needing to access CAMHS and what legislation the Welsh Government can pursue with regard to a mental health Act here in Wales.

In closing, Deputy Minister, I have no doubt that the Deputy Minister is absolutely serious about and committed to mental health and improving mental health here in Wales. I absolutely have no doubt of her commitment towards that. I think this debate shows that we in this Chamber on all sides are really on your side to ensure that this is as good as it can be, is a strong as it can be for this generation and for future generations. That's why I would urge the Chamber to vote with the Welsh Conservatives and the Plaid Cymru amendments this evening. Diolch, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting. The first vote this afternoon is on item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate: HS2 consequential funding. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

We now move to a vote on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 34 against. And therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 2 is next, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, no abstentions, 14 against. And therefore amendment 2 is agreed.

The final vote on this item will be on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, no abstentions, and none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

We'll now move to the votes under item 8, the Welsh Conservatives debate on mental health. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 34 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24. The vote is tied. So, I exercise my casting vote against the amendment. And therefore the result of the vote is that there were 24 in favour, no abstentions, and 25 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 2 is next, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. [Inaudible.] And therefore I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment. Therefore the result of the vote is 24 in favour, no abstentions, 25 against. Amendment 2 is not agreed.

Amendment 3 is next. I call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. The result of this vote is again tied, therefore I will exercise my casting vote against amendment 3. And therefore the result is that there were 24 in favour, no abstentions, and 20 against. Amendment 3 is also rejected. 

As all amendments have been rejected, as has the motion, nothing has been agreed under this item.

And that concludes voting time for today, but it doesn't conclude our business. We will now move to the short debate. If Members who are leaving could do so quietly.

If I can have Members leave quietly for the remainder of our business.

The next item of business will be the short debate, and today's short debate will be presented by John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd.

Before you start, John Griffiths, I think Members, please, if you can leave quietly, that would be greatly appreciated by your fellow Member. John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. The impact of vaping across Wales, Llywydd—and we will have contributions from Jayne Bryant and Joel James. Vaping has become a familiar and growing feature of our lives. Indeed, across the world, clouds of vapour and a variety of smells contaminate the air. All over the globe there is concern, and a number of different approaches to address those concerns and the harms caused. Instead of burning tobacco, e-cigarettes work by heating a liquid containing nicotine. This means the most harmful elements of tobacco smoke—tar and carbon monoxide—are not produced, and health risks are thought to be less.

Vaping and e-cigarettes are used by some as a tool to help quit smoking. Their latest iteration—disposable pod vapes—are smaller and building market share. A legal vape cartridge must not hold more than 2 ml of liquid, which allows for around 600 puffs. However, there are some illegal products on sale in shops and online at the moment that can reach 9,000. Online, one illegal vape which allowed for 4,500 puffs was available for £10 each, or two for £17. This means they are easily affordable for young people individually, or in a group.

Although thought less harmful than smoking, vaping can have negative effects on the heart and lungs, and we do not yet know the harms from long-term use. The risk of nicotine dependency varies between e-cigarette products, with disposable pod vapes allowing particularly high levels of nicotine to be inhaled, and therefore a greater risk. Children and young people are more likely to develop nicotine dependency than adults and nicotine can impact their brain development. And also, of course, there are grave environmental concerns that are growing in the UK, with an estimated 1.3 million single-use vapes being thrown away each week, which is around 5.4 million per month. This includes 10 tonnes of lithium, which is the equivalent of 1,200 batteries inside electric cars. The Local Government Association said that single-use vapes are almost impossible to recycle, designed as one unit, so batteries cannot be separated from the plastic. And Material Focus, which is a non-profit organisation that runs the Recycle Your Electricals campaign, found that more than 700 fires in UK bin lorries and recycling centres were caused by batteries that had been dumped into general waste.

Here in Wales and the UK, the debate on vaping is intensifying, as experience grows and evidence of impacts continues to emerge. Back in 2016, the then Assembly opposition parties voted against the Labour administration’s legislation to put vaping on the same footing as smoking tobacco in restricting use in enclosed and other public places. Had that vote gone the other way, we would have avoided many of the harms since suffered. As the First Minister has stated, we had the chance in Wales to do something different that would have protected young people from the risks that vaping and e-cigarette use brings. However, we now need to look forward and address the challenges that present now and in the months and years to come.

Like many other Members, I believe the increased use of vaping is becoming a growing problem across Wales and the whole of the UK, particularly among our young people in primary and secondary schools. Action on Smoking and Health's Great Britain youth survey 2023 showed that there’s been an increase in the proportion of 11 to 17-year-olds experimenting with vaping, which is up from 15.8 per cent in 2022 to 20.5 per cent in 2023. And further figures from the School Health Research Network show that 5 per cent of secondary school pupils in Wales vape at least once a week. I’m sure I am not alone in having constituents raise with me the problem of vaping by young people in school or in public places—young people who are clearly too young to be doing so, and questions are rightly raised as to how they are able to obtain them.

Recently, I visited one of my local schools and had a question-and-answer session with year 6 pupils. I was quite surprised actually by how familiar those pupils were with vaping and, indeed, they had a number of stories to tell about the way children of their age are able to obtain vapes, such as finding discarded ones on the ground that are still usable and children taking them from their homes if their parents use them.

Afterwards, I spoke to the headteacher, who said they have had some incidents outside of school time and that this is an issue affecting many primary schools right across Newport East, and that is in and out of school, and pupils are going to secondary education addicted to vapes, with all the problems that brings, such as disruption and bad behaviour. Indeed, a local secondary headteacher told me that he was confiscating vapes on a daily basis from learners as young as 13 and the number using them outside the school gates was increasing rapidly. Despite contact with parents, some of whom have actually bought the vapes for their children, he felt they were making little impact on these problems and he was very concerned for the health of the children. They had also had incidents with learners owing money for vapes and were worried that this was linked to the criminal exploitation of vulnerable children.

I know that, in April of last year, a letter was sent to parents in Carmarthenshire by 11 local headteachers, urging parents to talk to children about the detrimental behaviour that resulted, and schools having to invest a significant amount of staff time in preventing pupils from vaping—time that would be much better spent mentoring and supporting pupils' well-being.

I do believe this starkly illustrates the challenges schools are facing at both primary and secondary level across Wales, and we really need to redouble our efforts to find a solution, and redouble our efforts to educate parents who may know their children are vaping, and we need to challenge the suggestion that vaping poses little risk to health, and the attitudes that say that it is not as bad as smoking so it is not a problem. Thankfully, the Minister for education last month published much-needed advice for schools about vaping, and I know that the Minister fully understands these problems, and, indeed, in his constituency of Neath has chaired a round-table, bringing together the local council, schools, youth council, police and charities, so that he could hear first-hand about the scale of the problem. I think it would be very useful if many other Senedd Members did the same, and it's certainly something that I plan to do.

Sadly, if a child is determined to get a vape, or any other age-restricted product, we know there are adults who are prepared to purchase them on their behalf, or, more concerningly, shops willing to sell them to under-age young people. We have seen across our communities a growing number of dedicated vape shops in our high streets. Indeed, in the local area around my constituency office, which is located near the city centre in Newport, there are 11 dedicated vape shops, and this does not include corner shops or supermarkets, which have them on sale. Last year, Newport City Council conducted an illegal tobacco enforcement campaign to investigate whether some vape shops were selling products to people below the legal age. This found four of the 11 shops were indeed doing this, and 220 illegal products were found in five shops across the city. That number has grown to 620, following further action by council officers.

The ASH GB youth survey of 2023 has revealed that 16 per cent of 11 to 17-year-olds believe it is 'very easy' to obtain a vape, and 22 per cent believe they are 'easy' to obtain. Given all of this concerning background, there is a strong debate on what is the best course of action for us to take to protect our young people and people of all ages. On the one hand, there are those who support a ban on sales, but, to maximise the effectiveness of that, this would of course require adequate resources and powers for enforcement bodies. There are 29 countries around the world that have decided to ban the retail trading of any equipment relating to vaping, and that includes Brazil, India and Thailand. Meanwhile, 14 countries have decided to ban vaping in enclosed or semi-enclosed public places, workplaces and public transport. There are varying degrees of enforcement. I do believe we need to study these countries' experiences very closely and look at the impact these measures are having.

Some of those arguing for a ban suggest vaping can be a gateway to smoking, and there are vapers who do not and would not smoke, but vape because they do not think it poses a significant health risk. A different view holds that a ban on sales would be counterproductive to the campaign to further drive down smoking rates, given vaping can be effective in cutting down or giving up cigarettes. A possible compromise here could be to make vapes only available at pharmacies by prescription as a smoking cessation tool, although it could be argued there are many smokers who would not use that service but would buy over the shop counter. Many of those who would stop short of a ban suggest restrictions on the marketing and promotion of vaping products, particularly to children and young people, are what is needed. And, of course, there are the issues around flavours that are clearly aimed directly at children, such as unicorn flavour or blueberry, raspberry. Why is it that rather than have generic flavours such as mint or menthol, vapes are available that are clearly marketed to be attractive to our young people? And vapes are often displayed prominently at the front of the shop, to encourage an impulse buy rather than being behind a shutter, as tobacco is today. Clearly, there is a need for much stronger regulation to end these unscrupulous and deeply harmful practices.

There do seem to be some potentially useful developments in the offing at a UK Government level: the potential banning of single-use vapes and the welcome announcement to raise the legal age for buying cigarettes by one year every year. It is right that we do what we can to ensure the next generation can grow up smoke free and not nicotine dependent. And I do welcome the First Minister's response at First Minister's questions yesterday, when he outlined the current debate and the different approaches, and one way of striking the balance between reducing the harms of vaping and e-cigarettes, whilst recognising their role in helping smokers to give up or cut down, by only permitting their use on prescription through a pharmacist.

Llywydd, there are different views on the best way forward and a lively and developing debate, but we definitely do need urgent Welsh Government action to protect our young people and people of all ages from the harms of vaping and e-cigarettes.

I'd like to thank John Griffiths for bringing forward this important topic for debate this evening and for allowing me a minute of your time. Diolch, John. You've talked about the importance and the impact of vaping on children and young people, and it's that that I'd like to pick up on in my contribution.

We have seen very quickly how this market has become glamourised and increasingly attractive to children and young people, and while rates of adults' trends of smoking have decreased, vaping rates among young people have increased, even though they have never smoked before. And we've seen this through—. It happened through advertising on television, and particularly social media platforms. The content they see shows tricks with smoking, making it look fashionable to young people. And, as John has mentioned, we've seen the increase in the amount of vape shops in our communities. The market is awash with flavours that appeal to younger people, so much like alcopops did, and we know that children's awareness of promotion of vapes has also grown, particularly in shops where more than half of all children report seeing e-cigarettes being promoted, and online, where nearly a third have seen e-cigarette promotions.

It's an alarming trend that we're seeing among young people. We need to get ahead and help to raise awareness among young people of the potential side effects. We know that the exposure of children and young people to nicotine can lead to lasting long-term negative impacts on brain development as well as addiction. And one school in my constituency installed vape sensors to deter it, but instead, it went off 112 times within the first day. The headteacher said, 'Some young people are so addicted to the vapes, they can't last a lesson or an hour of time'. So, addressing these concerns and promoting awareness about the risks associated with vaping is essential to safeguard public health and well-being in Wales. We know that children and young people are the victims. Diolch.

Thank you, John, for raising such an important debate and for giving me a minute of your time. As we have heard, the prolific use of vapes in schools and the effect it is having on children and their behaviour is a major cause of concern, with one of the main issues that needs to be highlighted being that vaping delivers a considerably higher dose of nicotine when compared with smoking. Indeed, the average cigarette delivers around 1 to 2 mg of nicotine, whereas vaping delivers anything between 8 and 20 mg per vape—that's between 400 and 2,000 per cent more nicotine per vape. It's an incredible amount. A disposable vape with a strength of 35 mg/ml and 12 ml of e-liquid has 420 mg of nicotine, and looking online, you can buy up to 10 disposable vapes for as little as £10. We also have to be mindful of the amount of tainted black-market vaping products that are becoming more readily available, and, with people being able to mix their own e-liquids, increasing the nicotine doses to ever-higher amounts, is it any wonder that we're experiencing an increase in behavioural problems amongst students, and violence towards teachers? Thank you.

I now call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to reply to the debate. Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, acting Deputy Llywydd. I would like to thank John Griffiths for tabling this debate today, and for the points he has made on vaping, and also thank the other Members who've contributed. Like him, I've been very concerned for some time by the increases in vape use, particularly amongst children and young people. Many of these products contain nicotine and have no place in the hands of children and young people. It is important to recognise that e-cigarettes were intended to be used as a tool to help people give up smoking, and many people do still choose to use them for that.

We know that tobacco is the biggest cause of premature death here in Wales, and has devastating impacts on individuals, their families and our society. As smoking is such an indiscriminate killer, last year, we set out our ambition for Wales to be smoke free by 2030, which means achieving a 5 per cent smoking prevalence rate. We have made great progress to stop young people starting smoking and in helping over 89,000 smokers break their addiction through our Wales-wide Help Me Quit smoking cessation service. According to our national survey for Wales, we are now at the lowest level of smoking prevalence we have ever had, at 13 per cent. This is a great achievement, and our NHS, public health teams, third sector and local authorities must all be commended for their part in changing the way our society views smoking. We no longer live in a country where smoking is seen as normal and as something, even though most of us are non-smokers, we have to accept.

The announcement last week to progressively increase the age at which tobacco can be sold is a game changer for public health policy, and one I have wholeheartedly supported since Javed Khan made his recommendations following his independent review last year. I can therefore assure Members that I am working with the UK Government, and other devolved administrations, to consider consulting jointly on proposals for a new smoke-free generation, and on measures to tackle young people vaping. Because I do believe we're on the cusp of ending the tobacco epidemic and the devastation it has brought upon our nation. But I think there is more to do, and we should be going further. I hope the UK Government will still consider the introduction of a polluter-pays levy on the tobacco industry, for example, as, for too long, they've been allowed to make massive profits from getting people addicted to their deadly products.

But as we make progress in eradicating smoking in Wales, vapes represent the very real threat of creating a new generation addicted to nicotine. While I do recognise that, for some, they can be helpful in quitting smoking, and perform part of their quit journey, their increasing use by children and young people is of huge concern. I am therefore very pleased that we will also be working on a four-nation basis to stop these products being marketed to children through their colourful marketing and attractive flavours. I also want them out of sight in shops in Wales, so that children can no longer see them and want to try them. I am also very pleased that we, along with other UK nations, have committed to work together to tackle single-use vapes. It is clear to me that these are not only being used by young people, but they are a wasteful use of our resources, and are also damaging our environment. Some 1.3 million disposable vapes are thrown away every week—we cannot allow this continue.

Whilst I want to act swiftly on tobacco and e-cigarettes, I want to work closely with other UK nations so that we redouble our efforts to tackle illegal markets and all the associated criminality this brings. The illegal import and sale of unlicensed dangerous products is also something we are acutely aware of. Members will have seen the media reports of illegal e-cigarette products being seized, which were found to contain harmful toxins and heavy metals, all of which have a detrimental impact on health. My officials are working closely with trading standards colleagues from across Wales's local authorities to support further enforcement and seizure of illegal dangerous products.

Whilst pursuing legislative change, there are still things we are doing in the here and now on vapes. We have produced guidance for those in secondary schools to help learners understand the impact of vaping on their health and well-being, as well as to provide evidence-based information for teachers and school staff. Public Health Wales has also been undertaking in-depth work with stakeholders in Wales through their vaping among children and young people incident response group, to gather evidence and data on use by young people in Wales. And we'll be looking at recommendations on where we can take short-term actions to address the risks. This work is about to conclude and its recommendations will be published shortly, and I will ensure Members are kept up to date with this work.

We must also recognise that a rise in vaping is likely to result in an increase in the number of people in Wales who are addicted to nicotine, which, as we all know, is a highly addictive substance. Public Health Wales are therefore looking at how our stop smoking service, Help Me Quit, can be expanded to support people addicted to nicotine in all its forms, including through vaping. Yesterday, the First Minister highlighted the Australian example whereby e-cigarettes are available only on prescription for use as an aid to quit smoking. As yet, there aren't any e-cigarette products currently being considered by the medicines regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, for specific use in a supervised quit journey in the UK, but as and when such a product is approved, we will look at their place as a product available on prescription.

Finally, I would like to thank again the Member for bringing forward this short debate. I know many Members are deeply concerned by youth vaping, but also the impact that tobacco has on perpetuating health inequalities in our country. I will endeavour to keep Members updated as we move ahead with this groundbreaking work, which is so vital to supporting a healthier Wales for us all. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Deputy Minister, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.