National Assembly for Wales

Can I welcome everybody to today's hybrid meeting of the Senedd Petitions Committee? As a reminder, this is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Orders remain in place.

Item 1 on today's agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I note there have been no apologies, but I should say that Joel James, due to an event out of his control, is running a little bit late, and he has given us prior warning of that this afternoon. I remind committee members they should note any declarations of interest either now or at the relevant time during today's proceedings.

Item 2 on the agenda is new petitions. Item 2.1, P-06-1306, 'More protection for ancient & veteran trees in Wales. Old Trees can be relocated. Stop The Chop':

'1960's tree felling laws are out of date. Current planning policy allows for the chopping down of ancient & veteran trees.

'We call on the Welsh Government to amend Planning Policy in relation to Tree Protection Orders (TPO’s). More protection is required, the laws are far too relaxed.

'Planning policies for both small & large-scale developments allow property developers/land owners to apply for a Tree Felling Licence via Natural Resources Wales.

'Stop The Chop of ancient & veteran trees.'

There is further information available to Members and members of the public on this petition. It was submitted by Nicholas Bounds, with 480 signatures. I will bring Members in to discuss this petition and any particular actions they wish to take, starting with Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for submitting this petition. I see that the Agriculture (Wales) Bill is due to be debated tomorrow on the Chamber floor. So, I would like to keep the petition open with a view to seeing what is said tomorrow in the debate. Obviously, this is a really important petition. We need to save our trees, we need to protect our old woodlands. That's really, really important, so I don't think we should close this petition. I think we should wait and maybe bring this petition back after we see exactly what is said tomorrow on the Chamber floor.

Thank you for that suggestion, Buffy. I can see Members are content with that and are in agreement.

Item 2.2, P-06-1315, 'Stop outsourcing at the Plas Menai National Outdoor Centre for Wales':

'Sport Wales has invited tenders for an external organisation to take over the running of its National Outdoor Activities Centre at Plas Menai, near Caernarfon, including the employment of its staff, and we are concerned about what this might mean for employees and the activities they provide. Previous experience suggests that outsourcing does not benefit staff, quality of service or the taxpayer.

'We call on the Welsh Government to stop this process and keep Plas Menai in the public sector.'

This was submitted by Darren Williams, with 1,253 signatures. We have had a response from the Minister in the Welsh Government and also a reply to that response from Darren Williams, who, for the record, I should state I know quite well through his work in a trade union. The petitioner Darren Williams has noted that the transfer of the outdoor facilities has happened, it's now gone ahead, so he's noted that and understands the committee can no longer do much more with that. On that issue, I suggest we close the petition, thank Darren for submitting, and, again, it's a different process, but certainly raising awareness of the issues across Wales. Are Members happy? I can see that they are.

Item 2.3, P-06-1316, 'Rename Wales to her original name, Cymru':

'Wales was the name imposed on Wales. The original name was Cymru.'

This was submitted by Vaughan Williams, with 414 signatures. I'll bring Members in to discuss this petition now. Luke Fletcher. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I understand the sentiment behind the petition. You could probably argue that there are a number of names that were the original name for Wales. I think, actually, as well, this goes a bit deeper into place names within Wales. We know the Football Association of Wales, for example, uses 'Cymru' instead of 'Wales'. Looking at the Government's response to this, though, they're fairly firm in what they're going to continue doing, which is calling Wales both 'Wales' and 'Cymru'. I think it's going to come down to a bit of a culture change within society to get to this point of just calling Wales 'Cymru'. So, just based on the Government's position, but also with a commitment from myself and hopefully other Members to use the name 'Cymru' more, I think we should close the petition and thank the petitioner. 

Thank you, Luke. Are there any further comments from Members? No, I can see there are not. It is worth noting the Government's response, and I quote:

'Our intention is to continue to use both Cymru and Wales, to refer to our nation in both its official languages, and to continue to promote the visibility and use of Welsh at a community and national level, reflecting our conviction that Welsh belongs to us all.'

On that note, I think Members are agreed with Luke's position and suggestion. We'll action that and thank the petitioner and close. Diolch yn fawr.

Item 2.4, P-06-1320, 'Allocate additional funding to Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council to ensure its sustainability':

'The sustainability of the local government services delivered across Neath Port Talbot will be significantly challenged if additional Government funding is not provided. The ongoing impact of Covid-19 and the war in Ukraine are creating an unprecedented demand on already strained council services. We estimate a shortfall of £5million for 2022-23 and a further £20million for 2023-24. Our communities are struggling with the cost of living crisis and any increase in council tax must be avoided.'

There is additional information available to Members and members of the public about this petition. It was submitted by Mark Fisher with 414 signatures. I would like to invite Members to discuss this petition now, and any actions the committee may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I should probably say that I met with Mark a couple of times as one of the local Members for Neath Port Talbot and South Wales West more widely. I know he's quite committed, as this is a campaign he's run for a number of years now. The trouble we have at the moment is we're slap bang in the middle of budget season. I know the Finance Committee, and the Local Government and Housing Committee, have published reports today around their budget scrutiny. There are a lot of things in there for us to consider. Of course, we have the debate on the draft budget tomorrow. I think, because of that, we should keep the petition open for the time being, or at least until the final budget and local government settlement is published, and revisit it at that point to see what contribution we can make as a committee.

Thank you, Luke. Do Members agree? Yes. Thank you. 

Item 2.5, P-06-1323, 'We request that the Welsh Government purchase St David's Hall as a national resource for Wales':

'This is a heartfelt plea to prevent the loss of a vital cultural resource to the people of Wales; We call upon the Welsh Government to step in.'

Again, there's additional information available to Members and members of the public on this petition. It was submitted by Ben Herrington with 3,575 signatures. I'll invite Members to discuss this petition now. Rhys ab Owen. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. This is an important petition to try and keep the national concert hall of Wales within public ownership. I know the importance of the hall for schoolchildren; I myself sang there a few times as a schoolchild. So, I know the public benefit of the hall—the home of the internationally renowned Cardiff Singer of the World and the national orchestra. I see that the Welsh Government haven't responded formally to the petition, and of course we still have the public consultation with Cardiff Council, which I understand is due to be published next month. So, I submit that we keep open the petition pending the formal response from the Welsh Government, and see Cardiff Council's public consultation report.

Thank you, Rhys. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I never sung there myself when I was a kid—I was a bit tone deaf—but I'm pretty sure my wife did, as a Cardiff girl. In support of what Rhys suggests there, for me as well, there's an element of wanting to keep public institutions like this in public hands. On a personal level, I don't think privatisation is a solution, especially when it comes to cultural matters.

Thank you for that, Luke, in agreement with Rhys's suggestion to keep open pending the response from the Welsh Government. Are Members all in agreement? They are. I think it's also worth noting a similar petition that was launched on the Change.org website, which the Petitions Committee can't look at. It is worth noting that that similar petition, on that external website, Change.org, collected 21,790 signatures—so, again, just showing the importance of St David's Hall to the people of Wales. We await with interest the Welsh Government's response.

Item 3 on today's agenda is updates to previous petitions.

Item 3.1, P-06-1314, 'Insulate all Welsh homes against both the heat and the cold...introduce grants that are open to all!'. This was submitted by Robert Curtis, with 279 signatures. This is a petition that the committee took great interest in, given the current climate that we all face. We have, as a committee, undertaken some work, both hosting a round-table with a number of external organisations, and too a committee visit to Sero Homes in Cardiff, to look at the innovations they are taking in developing and retrofitting homes across Wales. Both the visit and the round-table have posed some questions for the committee to consider. I propose to the members of the committee that we write to the Minister for Climate Change with the questions that have arisen from those two engagements that took place, and we will make that letter public. Are Members content? I see they are. 

Item 3.2, P-06-1209, 'Create a national list of all unpaid carers in Wales'. This was submitted by Mike O'Brien, with 77 signatures. I will bring in committee members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. My understanding is that this is now being discussed at a pretty high level, but one of the things that keeps coming up all the time is the difficulty around collecting that data around unpaid carers. I'd be really interested in exploring that a bit more with the Minister, if possible. I would like to keep the petition open. I know there's a ministerial advisory group meeting around March or April time. I'd be interested to have an update from the Minister from that. But I'm really interested in just delving a bit deeper into the issues around collecting data here, because I think, actually, this is something quite important that we need to get to grips with.

Thank you for that suggestion, Luke. Are Members in agreement? I can see they are. Are there any further comments? No. Okay.

Item 3.3, P-06-1240, 'Improve health services for people with epilepsy living in Wales'. This was submitted by Janet Paterson with 1,334 signatures. I know Janet Paterson; I think I sponsored an event in the Senedd for Epilepsy Action Cymru. We've considered this petition a number of times now, but I will bring Members in to discuss the petition and any action. I'm again looking at Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think we should perhaps write to the Minister, just to see if there's a possibility of getting her view on the report published by Epilepsy Action Cymru. I know it's quite unusual for a Minister to comment on third sector work, but she has shown a willingness to share the report with those who are drawing up the new service specifications for epilepsy within Wales. I always go with the principle of, 'If you don't ask, you don't get', so I wouldn't mind if we could write to the Minister, asking for her views, and then come back to this petition once we've had the response. But I think we should also congratulate the petitioner on this petition. The fact that it's being discussed at the level it's being discussed right now is something to be really proud of.

Thank you, Luke. So, there's been a suggestion to write to the Minister for her further thoughts and, as Luke has said, the Minister has shared it with her officials. The report is by Epilepsy Action Cymru, which I think was the one I launched with Janet here in the Senedd, and is now being considered by Welsh Government and those at the highest level. So, is there agreement with Luke's suggestion? I can see that Members do agree. Thank you. So, we will do that, and, again, yes, you're right: we should congratulate Janet and all those who signed that petition.

Item 3.4, P-06-1242, 'Improve Endometriosis Healthcare in Wales'. This was submitted by Beth Hales with 5,895 signatures. Again, we've considered this a number of times, and I think we've had very good engagement with Beth Hales. The Senedd committee did debate—. We did not debate the issue. It did reach the threshold for debate when it opened, but as a committee I think we had decided not to debate it because it was debated in the previous Senedd by the likes of our former colleague Suzy Davies, who put a wonderful, excellent contribution forward. On that point, I will bring committee members in. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd also like to thank the petitioner and all those who are continuously campaigning to raise awareness of endometriosis. It's such a debilitating condition to have. I know that from my own personal experience. So, the more awareness we can raise for such an important subject, the better, and I think we've all played our part as a committee raising awareness on social media, so that people understand just how debilitating this condition really is.

I know the petition has been open for over a year, and we've considered it four times now, but for myself personally and for the petitioner, I would really like to leave this petition open just until the women's health plan has been developed and published, so that we ourselves as a committee can look at that health plan and see just what provision is in there for endometriosis sufferers because this is one of those conditions that you can't see, and if you can't see it, it's almost like it doesn't exist. It can cost a woman two weeks out of every month of their lives. I know for myself that I was losing two weeks out of every single month where I just couldn't leave the house. So, it's so important that we keep this petition open, just to ensure that the women's health plan does specifically have an area for endometriosis sufferers in there.

Thank you for that suggestion, Buffy. I think it's worth noting your ongoing commitment to raising this in the Senedd at every opportunity. Do Members agree with Buffy's suggestion to await the publication of the women's health plan? They do. Okay. We will do that. Again, it's worth mentioning how inspirational Beth Hales is. We've all been struck by that, I'm sure, as a committee, and we will, I'm sure, engage further with her.

Item 3.5, P-06-1247, 'We call on the Welsh Government to lead the way by supporting trials of a four-day week in Wales'. This was submitted by Mark Hooper with 1,619 signatures. Again, for the record, I and I think other members of the committee do know Mark from the work that he does. We, as a committee, took the decision to undertake an inquiry into the four-day week, or the prospect of a four-day week in Wales, and the committee recommended and endorsed a trial in the public sector in Wales. For the record, it's important to note that there was a minority view from the Member Joel James, who did not agree with our recommendation as a committee.

The report was laid on 24 January. Myself, Mark and Joel did a lot of media interviews, actually, on that day. The petition saw a lot of engagement and actually raised a lot of debate—it's probably up there as one of the petitions that has raised most debate. I understand it was even debated in a retired men's club, so we're informed. So, no, it's good to see engagement of the committee is reaching far and wide, and I suggest we wait to see the outcome of the Welsh Government's response to our report and recommendations, and consider the petition and any actions to take then. Do Members agree? Yes.

Item 3.6, P-06-1287, 'Investigate C&V UHB’s refusal to keep north Penarth’s surgery, allocating patients to distant GPs'. This has been submitted by Max Scott-Cook, with 348 signatures in total, 266 of them online and 82 on paper. I'd like to bring committee members in now to discuss further. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. We've received a response from the community health council, from the health board, and also the Minister. I understand that we have received a response from the petitioner earlier today, which we haven't been able to consider at the moment. So, my recommendation is that we keep the petition open for us to be able to consider in full the petitioner's response.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys, for that suggestion. I see committee members nodding, both online and here in the Senedd. It makes sense to do that, so that's what we will do.

Item 3.7, P-06-1288, 'Deliver Magor and Undy Walkway Station, part of the Burns Delivery Programme, as a quick win'. This was submitted by Paul Turner, with 547 signatures in total. I would like to bring Members in to discuss this particular petition now and any actions we may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I can see progress has been made on the petition, but it's definitely not at a point where it is completed, in my view at least, anyway. I'm wondering if we could just keep it open for six months and review it in six months' time to see where we're at. I recognise, of course, that at some point, we're limited in what we can do as a committee, and that we are going to have to make a call on what exactly is going to trigger us to close it or to progress further. But for the time being, I'd be happy to keep it open for another six months and review progress.

Diolch, Luke. So, there's been a suggestion to postpone for six months and review in six months' time. Do Members agree? They do, okay.

Item 3.8, P-06-1294, 'Don't leave metastatic breast cancer patients in Wales behind'. This was submitted by Tassia Haines, with 14,106 signatures. Again, Tassia is another inspirational person that we, as a committee, have had the pleasure of engaging with during our time. I know that Tassia is watching online; she's actually in hospital as we are sitting here today considering her petition—a petition that we have debated. I think on behalf of the committee, Members and our team who support us, we wish Tassia all the well wishes that we can at this time. On that note, I would like to bring Members in to to discuss the petition. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to echo your sentiment there that Tassia definitely is an inspiration, and I think she touched us all when we met her after the debate at the Senedd. I know she definitely touched me with all her hard work in campaigning to raise awareness of this issue and to make sure that women who suffer metastatic breast cancer have the care and support that they need.

So, with that in mind, I understand that the Minister did answer some of the questions in the debate and has answered some of our questions and what Tassia had put for us to ask. There are still gaps, so I would like to write to the Minister one last time to ensure that these gaps and these questions are answered. I know that Macmillan Cancer Support—I think it's Macmillan, if I remember correctly—and there's another charity that have now got the first metastatic breast cancer nurse in situ who is supporting women who are suffering with metastatic breast cancer. It's not enough; we need more. We need more support, so in keeping this petition open just that little bit longer and getting those questions answered, I think it's vital that we, as a committee, continue on this path to ensure that these ladies have exactly what they need in terms of care.

Thank you for that suggestion, Buffy. I can see Members are nodding in agreement, and I can confirm that you are correct, it is Macmillan, because I can see Macmillan in the public—. You won't be able to see them, Buffy, but I can see Macmillan are here watching today's proceedings. I think it is also worth pointing out that the meeting of the Wales Cancer Network happened last month, and as a committee we would like to see the outcome of that meeting when that comes. So, I can see Members are in agreement. Yes, okay. Thank you, Buffy.

Item 3.9, P-06-1303, 'Create, fund and sustain sufficient affordable nursery and childcare places for all working parents'. This was submitted by Gill Byrne, with a total of 260 collected signatures. I would like to bring Members in to discuss this petition and any actions we may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. The Minister's letter talks about childcare sufficiency assessments and that they're carried out every five years, the most recent being last year, so 2022, even though that feels like only yesterday. But I think it would be worth us writing to the Minister, asking what assessment has been made of the most recent CSA and what does it actually reveal about the state of childcare provision in Wales. I was slightly concerned about the previous load of correspondence that we had back, which indicated, at least to me, that we haven't really been able to move much on this, but this might be a way forward for us to at least try and get some movement on this.

Thank you for that suggestion, Luke. Do Members agree? They do, so we will write back to the Minister with Luke's suggestion there.

Item 3.10, P-06-1304, 'To review the emergency temporary housing policy which impacts our communities'. It was submitted by Richard Grabham, with 306 signatures. I will bring committee members in to discuss this petition and any actions we may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch yn fawr. I note we have received a response from South Wales Police. I'm also aware that the Local Government and Housing Committee currently have an inquiry on homelessness and that publication is due early next month, so I suggest we should await the publication of that report by our sister committee and await the Welsh Government response to that inquiry.

Diolch, Rhys. I can see Members are content with that suggestion too, so we will take that forward.

Item 4 today does now conclude today's public business. So, I do propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting, where we will look at items 5, 6 and 7, the petitions data that we have collected, our forward work programme and also consider our draft report on P-06-1161, 'Routine collection and publication of data of how many babies/children return to their care experienced parents care at the end of a Parent and Child Placement'. Are Members content? I can see they are. Thank you very much, diolch yn fawr. The committee will meet again on 27 February. Diolch, meeting closed.