National Assembly for Wales

Good morning and welcome to the Health and Social Care Committee meeting this morning. I'm Peter Fox and I'm pleased to welcome Members here today. Can we note that this meeting is bilingual and there is simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English available. Members, are there any declarations of interest that anybody wishes to make? John.

Only to say that, in terms of the candidate for chair of Social Care Wales, Cadeirydd, I know the candidate personally and professionally.

Okay, thank you, John. Anybody else? No. Okay. And can I record also apologies from Joyce Watson who can't be with us today? Those watching may have seen that John Griffiths and Lesley Griffiths are attending online today.

We're here today to conduct a pre-appointment hearing for the role of chair of Social Care Wales, and we have the Government's preferred candidate today with us—Katija Dew. Can I welcome you today to this meeting and thank you for making yourself available? We have a few obvious sets of questions we would like to put to you, if we may. I think we're scheduled for about 45 minutes for this, if that's okay, and if you're okay, we will start.

I want to just perhaps first talk about the knowledge and experience that you obviously will have. Could you tell us why you believe you're well suited to the role and how you would be able to draw on your skills and experience to ensure Social Care Wales is that strong organisation with good governance, accountability and good financial management? 

Yes, of course. I'm just writing down your question because I will forget all of it. So, yes, I think, in terms of my experience, I have extensive experience of non-executive roles. I also have experience of executive roles, so I understand the dynamic there. I understand what it takes to hold responsibility at board level in a public environment, one that is complex, and I have extensive leadership experience in that. Over time, I've gathered quite some experience around how to lead and how to chair, and that chairing is very much about judgment and tone in leading the board to undertake its responsibilities, those being to ensure appropriate and effective governance, to be able to scrutinise and establish assurance in relation to the remit of the organisation and, where appropriate, its statutory responsibilities—which Social Care Wales has—to work as a group and a team to support and lead the executive, holding them to account for their responsibilities, but also to hold space for them to develop the thinking on delivery and strategy ahead. So, for me, it's very much around governance and assurance, having the right processes and structures in place, and having the skills and experience to exercise appropriate scrutiny and establish assurance, whilst also, at the same time, supporting creative thinking alongside leading at a strategic level to develop the organisation to meet its responsibilities.

Thank you for that, that was helpful. Could you share what knowledge and experience you have of the social care and early years sectors in Wales, and how you would apply that to this new role?

Okay. So, at present, I am a board member at Social Care Wales, and I've been in that role for 11 months, so I'm relatively new in that role. I've learnt a lot since I've been there, but I have a long history and experience in working in the social care and health sector, and in the third sector, delivering on those outcomes that are important to those sectors. So, I feel that I have extensive and wide-reaching experience, not only in leading and delivering, but in supporting at the periphery those people who are recipients of that support. I am myself an unpaid carer and have been in several iterations in my life: for my husband, who was chronically ill, for a sick child, and now for my mother who is living with dementia. So, I understand the dynamics from that perspective.

I've also, as I said, worked in the third sector, supporting services that deliver in that space. And I have led an organisation that delivered regulated care services. So, from that perspective, I know what it's like to run those services. In addition, I have been a board member of Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, at which I sat on the regional partnership board, so I understand very deeply the intersection between health and social care. And then, latterly, as I said, I have been a board member at Social Care Wales, so I'm very much steeped in delivering on our statutory responsibilities and our strategic plan.

Thank you for that. That's certainly a comprehensive background and a lot of experience, so I certainly welcome that.

Just a final point from me, really: I was just wondering, with regard to any of the other appointments that you currently hold, do you foresee any conflict between them and this position?

No, I do not see any conflict with any of my current positions. I've listed both my voluntary commitments and my professional commitments and there are no conflicts there.

Lovely. Thank you very much. Can I go on to James, please?

Yes, thank you again. Good morning and thanks for coming today. I'm just interested in the strategic direction of Social Care Wales. I'm just interested, from your perspective, in what you think the biggest challenges are for Social Care Wales and the biggest challenges for social care across the country, and how you think, as chair, you can help address some of those problems.

Okay, so I'll start with the challenges for social care. So, for me, I can list three main challenges for the sector. The first and most apparent is workforce sustainability, so do we have enough people in the sector and are we retaining them in the sector? That is a huge challenge. We know that we do not, and we also know that people come into the sector because they are hugely motivated to make a difference—we know that from our workforce survey at Social Care Wales. But we also know that around 20 per cent of the workforce or the respondents are thinking of leaving the sector in the not-too-distant future. Those reasons are around affordability, cost of living, workforce pressures in the workplace, and that leads to a problem with sustainability. 

The second challenge for me, looking forward, is that the complexity of need is increasing. So, not only do we have an ageing population, we have more people who are going to need care, in all likelihood, there is also a further complexity to their need, and therefore the workforce needs to be trained and capable to be able to meet those needs. So, I think that that is going to be increasing in addition. 

And then finally, the challenge for us as a sector is to promote and maintain public confidence and trust in the sector. There is a narrative out there that we just don't have enough care workers and so on, and so on, and I think it is so important. We are supporting and caring for some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and the public needs to understand that we are trying very hard to maintain standards and ensure that individuals who are in the sector are entirely capable of meeting the need and, in doing that, we have appropriate systems to ensure that that happens. So, in terms of the organisation and the challenges, going ahead, I think they mirror those challenges in the sector. So, we need to ensure that we are bringing people into the sector and retaining them by ensuring that they are properly trained, that they are properly supported, that we work closely with employers and Care Inspectorate Wales and a range of partners to support their experience in the workplace. So, that’s about bringing people into the sector and retaining them.

And then I think another challenge or piece of work we need to do is to continue our research and learning function, whereby we are able to establish really good practice excellence in the care sector, distribute that learning, work with our partners. Learning is great, but is it going to be enacted, is it going to be absorbed and integrated? So, it's working closely in collaboration with our partners to support that.

And then finally for the organisation, I think we're in changing times. There are huge challenges out there, and I think it is a priority for the organisation to maintain its consistent delivery that is supported by really effective governance. And I would pay great respect to the organisation's leadership to date that I believe that we are in that place, that we have really strong governance, but we need to continue that, never taking our eye off the ball. We are custodians of public money and we have statutory duties to deliver, and so I think that is a priority.

On a lot of those issues, as chair, you would be highly responsible for the strategic direction, but a lot of the things that need to change sometimes need Government levers to move as well and Ministers to agree to some of the asks that Social Care Wales are looking for. I'm just interested, in terms of the workforce—. We know that people talk about integration between health and social care, but that's more of a political decision. I'm just interested how, as chair, you're going to work with Welsh Government Ministers and sometimes have those very difficult conversations with Ministers, even though they appoint you, to say, 'You're doing the wrong thing here and we need Government to change.' I'm just interested how you will manage that relationship and, sometimes, be willing to have those difficult conversations, sometimes in public, about the strategic direction of Welsh Government in terms of social care, given your role as chair of Social Care Wales. 

So, I completely agree, there is much that is outside of our control. We have very clear statutory responsibilities and a remit in statute. We also have a remit that is enshrined in an annual remit letter, so it's very clear what our role is. And that is distinct, and it is circumscribed. However, as I've described, we do work in partnership with other organisations who have responsibilities that are part of that puzzle. None of us are going to solve this on our own. So, my way of working is, currently, and will continue to be, to work with, alongside, on a basis of trust and respect, in collaboration with other organisations. 

I have already referred to our research and development function. So, we are gathering information and data, and we are continuing to push the boundaries of thinking of where we need to be. And then, it is for us to present that evidence and that thinking, and a collective view to Government, for their decisions as to how they will take forward any suggestions that we have. 

I have experience of this. I have extensive experience of doing this. I used to work in the financial inclusion and tackling poverty space. And that was really tough, because we were working in an environment where there were no funds. It was political discourse that didn't agree, and my focus was on the subject matter. My focus was on what the evidence is telling us about how people are having to live in current circumstances. Do they have access to products and so on? Those things were completely outside of our control. It was outside of the Welsh Government's control to some extent; some was in the Welsh Government's control. But it's about working in collaboration and holding that position of respect based on the evidence that we are providing in an independent and informed way. 

And just finally on this point, you did touch on the workforce as well, which is a huge point. 

Of course. 

But, obviously, pay is dictated by Government—the Government's commitment to pay the living wage to care workers. There's a lot of people in the industry as well, so there's not enough, and you lose a lot of social care workers to the health service because of terms and conditions and more security. That's another difficult conversation to be had with the Government, isn't it, around the strategic direction. If we're going to pay care workers—as I think they should do for the amazing work they do—properly, the Government has to step up to the plate with that with money, doesn't it? It's all about priority for Government. I'm just interested in how you manage that, because, coming into an organisation, I'm sure people will be expecting you to try and advocate for more money, as chair, for care workers. I'm just wondering how you would deal with the relationship with Government, which doesn't seem, currently—I know we're coming into an election period—to be increasing the money for salaries for social care staff across Wales. 

So, firstly, I'd say I get it and I feel it. I've led an organisation that delivered these services, and I would dearly have loved to pay staff more than we were able to. As I've already described, we support some of the most vulnerable people in society, and that's hugely important. 

I will come back, however, to the remit of the organisation, and that we have a circumscribed remit. However, we also have the results of the research that we undertake, and some of that includes the voice of those that are working in the sector and those that receive those services. And our approach will always be to base what we are saying on that evidence and taking that forward. 

Okay.

Thank you. Mabon. 

Diolch. So, if I may, I'll respond in English. Absolutely, I agree that culture and tone is vital. I think much of what you've described is based on leadership and the traits of those that are in that position. So, as chair, my role would be to work with the chief executive and the executive, but also with the board. I've already referred to the board as a team to hold collective leadership. The essence of leadership sits there. I think, again, I will pay great respect to the current chair and leadership of this organisation because I feel that they have set an excellent tone and culture—one of learning, one of clear direction and one of responsibility based in values. So, in that sense, I'm very lucky that I would be stepping into that. But it's very much about continuing that, because you cannot rest on your laurels.

In terms of the vision and the way ahead, the organisation is currently in that interface between an existing strategy and forming one for the future. I'll be working with the chief executive, who herself will be writing that, but we, as a board and a collective, will be very much guiding the principles of that, moving forward. Part of creating that strategy is listening deeply to the workforce, which the organisation does annually. So, it has just, in December, published its workforce survey results. But it's also listening to those who receive these services, and that is done in a proper and extensive way, and also listening to other organisations that are in that space. So, just last week, we met with Llais, for example, to listen to their priorities and what they are hearing with the commitment to moving forward and working together on that. So, for me, it is about bringing those strands together, in the short term, in order to create a longer term vision in the strategy.

But, as you started out, the culture is a long-term piece. We hold dear to that. It is for the chair to set the tone, and that, for me, would be around consistency, consideration, always consideration for the workforce and those who receive care services, but one that doesn't react, one that is considered, thinks things through, and knows when to hold space and consider, but also when to be agile. Those are the considerations that I would have.

Diolch.

Okay. Thank you. Lesley.

Thank you very much. Good morning. I just wanted to look at working relationships, and you've said a little about how you would lead. I was particularly interested to see in your application that you put your main outcome around 'supporting the workforce', which I think is really important. So, obviously, the board of Social Care Wales has a massive role to play in that. So, I just wonder if you could say a bit more about how you would ensure that the organisation that you were leading comes together, works with everybody, collaborates with everybody to make sure that outcome is achieved?

Okay. Diolch. So, again, it's a complex picture because Social Care Wales is not the employer of individuals who work in this space, but we are a leader in the sector and we are the contact point with the individuals who work in that space. And so, that is a gift, in that we have direct contact with those individuals through their registration and we are able to reach out to them and to hear what they have to say. And that, therefore, then gives us—again, I go back to evidence and data—a feel for how those working in the sector feel about their working conditions, how they feel they're treated, what their morale is like, what they're thinking, what their concerns are, what their aspirations are, what they value. And we are then able to convey those messages to those that we work with. So, for example, we work with and alongside the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, Care Inspectorate Wales and so on, and the Welsh Government—we discussed that. I think there is also a piece, given that we have the critical role in respect of workforce development, to integrate into our services and our resources there elements of support that will help individuals in response to the needs that they have.

And finally, just sort of bringing the loop around, I was talking last week with Llais about some of the feedback that they are having from those that also work in the sector, but also those that receive care, about some of the pressures and the thinking of those that are working in the social care sector, and if we can learn from those so that we can integrate that into our thinking in terms of development and support, but also in terms of supporting employers around terms and conditions and so on. So, we have this loop from those that are on the ground and working, and those who are receiving care, through to us, through to those that can influence change where it is required. So, just in summary, we don't employ individuals that work at grass-roots level, but there is a great deal that we can do, and do do, in supporting the workforce in a number of ways.

I appreciated that. I was just very interested that that was your first outcome. I don't know if the '1, 2, 3' were put in that order, but I just thought it was very interesting that you put that, given your answer now about how you would do it. So, thank you for that.

As chair, obviously, you will have a critical role in ensuring there's a strong working relationship between the board and the chief executive and the staff of Social Care Wales, a bit like with the Welsh Government, and James asked you earlier about how you would challenge and monitor, et cetera, and be that critical friend. Could you perhaps say a bit more about how you foresee your role in that?

Yes. Okay. So, if I can take the challenging and monitoring first, as I described earlier, the board has multiple functions, and ensuring appropriate governance, scrutiny and establishing assurance on a range of parameters is absolutely key. I think that starts with having a really strong governance structure and reporting mechanisms. You know, are we looking at the right things, are we measuring the right things and are we reporting them in a way that means the board is able to scrutinise that most appropriately? As chair, I would—and it would be my function to—work with the chief executive and the executive, and the board secretary, to ensure that we have those things in the right place, with the right tone and in the right depth, so that we can both pay appropriate attention to the right things, but also that allows us to do deep-dives where we feel that is appropriate. That also comes back to the matter of culture: having a positive working relationship, one based in respect and one where there is clarity and clear lines as to the function and responsibility of each of the entities there.

Sorry, Lesley, you may need to remind me of the second part of the question, but I think it was around working with the executive and the workforce and really understanding the organisation's working—was that correct?

Working with the executive, yes.

Yes. So, sorry, apologies. So, to go back to that, I think that really is steeped in establishing and reinforcing and living a constructive and appropriate working relationship, one where there is that dual role, there is that holding to account, there is that challenge where required, but that can be done—and I have experience of this, establishing this, both actually as an executive and as a non-executive director—in there being very clear lines as to our responsibilities and our ways of working, and we would just continue to enact that.

Thank you. How would you collaborate with the many regional, national and UK-level organisations to make sure that Social Care Wales is relevant, that your views are taken by all those different organisations, to make sure that the objectives of Social Care Wales are recognised?

Absolutely. So, absolutely critical. I've described that Social Care Wales plays an important part, but only one part, in the sector, both in terms of social care, but also with health, which is absolutely integral to the whole thing working. I think, in terms of my role as chair of the board, I need to work very closely with the chief executive and the wider executive on this. I need to be really mindful of their role and their interactions with partner organisations and Welsh Government, the chief social care officer and colleagues in those partner organisations. However, there is clearly a leadership role there for me, and I would engage appropriately with the Minister, with Senedd committees, giving evidence, or sharing our data and evidence as appropriate, and our thinking. As we know, there is a complex health and social care landscape there across Wales and, as I said, as I described previously, I have sat on a regional partnership board, so I understand very clearly how that intersection works and how, on a regional basis, we have different priorities in respect of the population. However, Social Care Wales does have a Wales national remit, and I would work appropriately with each of those entities—again, as appropriate—but mindful of the executive and the chief executive's role in doing that as well.

Thank you. And just finally, Chair, you mentioned, in an earlier answer, building trust and respect with the sector and with the workforce. What about with the public? Do you think you would have a role to ensure that there is that trust and respect with the public too?

Yes, certainly, and I think as an organisation. So, again, my role would be as chair, and so what my role is, or would be, is to ensure that the organisation as a whole is listening to the public and undertakes appropriate interaction with the public through the mechanisms that are established. However, I have always, throughout my career, and certainly my leadership career—. I believe that, unless I am hearing directly and understand what people are feeling on the ground, I think that would detract from my ability to lead the organisation. So, I will work with the executive to make sure that, where I am able to, I can directly hear what is said, but I would also ensure that those conversations and those messages come to board. That is critical, that those messages aren't just buried in a system, that they are brought to the board as a collective, which we would then—. And I would ensure that those are brought into the thinking in respect of both how we work now and how we want to work into the future.

Thank you.

Thank you, Lesley. John.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da. I'd like to ask how you would use the role of chair to promote equality, diversity and inclusion, and what skills and experience you could bring to the table in fulfilling that role as far as those matters are concerned.

Okay. Diolch. So, this, again, is about leadership. This is about living the values and being seen to live values that support equality, diversity and inclusion. I will, if I may, share some personal experience, and that is related to being brought up in a multilingual household. So, I have a mixed heritage, and there were four languages that were important in our household—actually, only two that were used frequently, but it was normal discourse for more than one language to be used. In fact, my father sometimes just switches from one to the other and expects us all to switch with him, which is fine. So, I've lived that, I've felt it, I understand it, and I also understand, from a service delivery perspective, how much this means. Again, I've spoken about how I have both myself delivered services, but also led grass-roots services. I have, in my current role, felt quite emotional when I have read some of our reports at the British Red Cross about our staff holding the hand of an end-of-life-care patient who chooses—or doesn't choose, their natural response to their situation is to speak through the medium of Welsh, and our teams have been able to do that at that most important moment of their life.

So, these are concepts that I deeply value myself, and I therefore bring that through to my professional roles. Again, I do that through a combination of ways: I lead and I am open and vocal about equality, diversity and inclusion. I am vocal about the use of the Welsh language and the proper respect it should have, and then I also enact that in my work in respect of what we're actually doing. So, again, I will refer to the British Red Cross, where, under my tenure, we have established a UK-wide Welsh language policy. It wasn't me that wrote that—it was colleagues that have worked very hard for some time to do that—but that UK-wide policy has now been adopted by the British Red Cross across the UK, and I'm very proud that that has happened. So, for me, again, it's about values, it's about understanding, it's about living those, but then enacting them in what we do—in structures and what we do, our business.

Okay, thanks for that. I wonder if you could say a little bit more in terms of the Welsh language—just how, in leading the board and the organisation, you would ensure a commitment to promoting and mainstreaming the Welsh language, and how that would be clearly demonstrated by the work of the organisation and the board.

Okay, thank you. So, the organisation currently works very hard on this. I understand that the majority of the organisation—it may even be coming up to 80 per cent, I think, in the last piece that I read—are able to use Welsh language to some degree, but we operate our business bilingually. Social Care Wales undertakes all of its board meetings bilingually. It flows, it works, it's normal business. And I think that is a large part of how we can convey our commitment to the public and the sector, by this being part of our normal business—that our offer is made through the medium of Welsh to the same degree and with the same regard as the offer through the medium of English, that it is seen as normal business. Again, we promote the language, the use of the Welsh language, but also the learning of the Welsh language for those people who want and need to do that, and therefore then have the confidence to use it. It's not just about learning and having it as a badge—it's about using it and conveying that respect in that way.

Thank you, John. And the last question from Mabon, please.

Diolch. So, there are several parts there. So, may I start then with the barriers? Because I like to always end with the positive. So, barriers or challenges. We are in turbulent times. It's the increasing complexities of the world that we live in and work in. I've spoken about the increasing need and demand alongside the challenges in the workforce, which are real. We also know, as I said, that the complexities of the need out there are deepening, but we are also learning constantly about what those complexities are.

We also know that the demand is increasing in respect of the interface between the health and social care sector, and I know that you are particularly interested in that, as am I, and how we work with the health sector to enable them to bring people back into their homes in a properly supported and safe environment. And there are increasing complexities around that. So, those are, you know, some of the challenges. One of the barriers for Social Care Wales might be that we have a specific remit. So, we don't have control over everything and, actually, neither should we. So, our role is around regulation and workforce.

In terms of my priorities in this term, again, I would break those down into ensuring that we deliver on our statutory responsibilities first and foremost. Those are clearly set out in statute and then enacted in our remit letter. But, notwithstanding that detail, my priorities would be—and related to outcomes—properly supporting a confident and skilled workforce, to promote sustainability in that. You will know that we have the WeCare.Wales programme, which is very much focused on bringing people into the sector, and then, alongside that, we work with partners on trying to support a sustainable sector. And in the middle, we're providing the support in terms of training and standards. So, that would be my priority, because that's the business, that's what we need to do. And in terms of measuring our effectiveness on that, that's really complicated, because, again, we only play one part. I think there is work for us all to do on how we measure how effective each of those constituent parts are, but I firmly believe that it is for us to make the sum greater than the sum of the parts, and we can do that through that spirit of trust and co-operation and collaboration.

I think another outcome that I would like to see is that there is strong use of the evidence and data and learning that we produce. We're putting a great deal of effort into that via the Ymlaen programme, and I think an outcome would be to see some of that learning and data and experience then enacted in other organisations. And then, finally, my priority is also to make sure that we, as an organisation, consistently deliver on our responsibilities, and that that is supported by effective governance and strong values, that the tone is appropriate and that we ensure that the resources that we are given from the public purse are appropriately used and that there is a proper line of sight on that.

Okay. Well, thank you, Katija, for the comprehensive way you've answered all of our questions. Thank you for giving us your time today. There will be a transcript available of this meeting that you can check over, and there will be an embargoed copy of our committee report that will be made available to you on Monday, prior to publication on Tuesday. You're aware of that process. Thanks again, and we wish you well. Thank you.

Thank you so much for your time.

Okay, colleagues, item 3 is papers to note. You'll see there are a few for us today. Are you content to receive those? Yes. No dissent. Okay, we'll receive those.

That takes us to item 4, the motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting and the meeting on 11 March. Are we happy to agree to that? Okay, thank you.