National Assembly for Wales

Bore da. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. All Members are present for our meeting to scrutinise next year's budget within the portfolio of the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. We are a bilingual institution, and there is simultaneous translation from Welsh to English. Are there any declarations of interest? I see none.

I'd like to welcome Jane Hutt, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip. If you don't mind, we'll go straight into questions, and perhaps your officials can introduce themselves as and when you bring them in. I wondered whether I could ask everybody to exercise the virtue of brevity, because we have about a dozen areas that we want to ask questions on, in what is a very broad portfolio. Just briefly, obviously, you are empowered to allocate the amount of money you've got as the inflationary uplift within your portfolio. How did you decide what to prioritise?

Thank you very much—diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I brought my written evidence to this committee, and you will see that in that written evidence I said that I had decided to apply the revenue uplift equally across all budget expenditure lines, because, obviously, I'm addressing multiple areas of disadvantage across different policy areas. The key overall benefit, in terms of maximising positive impact with the resources, is to safeguard vital services and support our commitment to tackling poverty, promoting equality and improving outcomes for the people of Wales.

As well as that broad-brush approach, I've looked at opportunities to allocate budgets for areas of greater need. So, you'll see a further £2.4 million revenue repurposed within the social justice main expenditure group within the proposals for next year, and an uplift of £0.4 million for capital that has been allocated to the financial inclusion BEL. That's for a strategic capital funding programme for credit unions, because we often end up giving bits of money, so we want to have a less reactive approach and a more strategic approach to support our credit unions, which are crucial.

The impacts of small amounts of money in my portfolio can be really important. Often, the impact of small investments is far-reaching. It's reducing inequalities, supporting human rights and children's rights, and, of course, our child poverty strategy.

How good is the evidence that credit unions actually reach the people who most need access to credit to manage their budgets?

I'm very proud of the way in which the credit unions in Wales have developed as crucial ethical lenders for those in financial need and in debt. I just recall, during the year, we managed to find some money to support a mobile credit union, I think, serving the Neath Port Talbot area. It was a great example of the use of capital funding to actually ensure that we reach out. This is capital funding—we also provide revenue funding. But, for credit unions, with high-street locations and co-locations with other services, just strategically it is better for credit unions to know that they can come to us and see that we can support them so that they can become as accessible as possible. But, yes, I can certainly give the committee more evidence of the impact of credit unions.

Okay, that would be helpful, Cabinet Secretary, because it's a useful subject, but I think we haven't got time to go into it today.

My second question is about the role that prevention plays across the Government. I'm sure you're aware that the future generations report and the auditor general's report that accompanied it were less than complimentary about the grasp that health services had over the importance of prevention. I just wondered how the Government plans to deal with this, because, obviously, the health Secretary is responsible for the performance of the health services, but, clearly, the health services don't seem to be thinking that they have to comply with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

Again, I think this is a really important area of policy for me in terms of what I addressed in my written evidence. It is vital that the whole budget is shaped by the well-being of future generations Act, and, of course, prevention is key to that—a central organising principle of Government and public bodies. Prevention is one of the five ways of working, alongside all of the other areas of work.

I think what's very important in terms of the influence on budget setting and prevention is the way that we look at the 'Wellbeing of Wales' report, the Wales economic and fiscal report, the budget improvement impact advisory group and the budget improvement plan. I think it's really important this year that we've got a strategic integrated impact assessment, which, of course, the finance Cabinet Secretary published on 3 November. It is actually going to be updated and reviewed as a result of all the budget exercise and scrutiny, which is a new development to look at the impact of budget decisions and scrutiny over these weeks.

The other thing, just in terms of prevention and making the right decisions, is I think it's really important that, for example—and you'll hear this shortly when I publish the child poverty progress report—we have looked for evidence of lived experience. I will be publishing a lived experience report to learn evidence from people who do have experience in households and children who experience child poverty. We looked at what is working. This is not just doing the same things over and over again because that's what you do.

Prevention is about finding out what works and how we can then invest further in this. Of course, all of my portfolio, from tackling inequality, child poverty, to prevention, which is crucial in relation to tackling violence against women and domestic abuse—. You will see also in my written evidence, particularly around violence against women, we look specifically at prevention—primary prevention, secondary prevention and tertiary prevention.

In VAWDASV, I think that's a really important way in which we can see whether we are making a difference—so, primary prevention, the Sound campaign with men and boys, secondary prevention, new pathways, intervention with young people, Safer Wales living intervention, health sector, interestingly, looking at the important IRIS programme, which I mentioned in my written evidence, with GPs—that's really preventative—and tertiary prevention, and we're working now with perpetrator interventions.

Okay. We'll come back to this next week when we're discussing the well-being of future generations Act. Jane Dodds.

I think I made the comment earlier on about my budget that small amounts of money, thousands rather than millions, can actually make a huge impact. What is really important is that I influence the whole of the Welsh Government budget, as you say, because if we can make sure that the big spend on health, housing, education actually has the purpose of tackling poverty, tackling inequality, promoting equality and inclusion—. I think, in a sense, this is a test of the whole budget, isn't it, of the whole Welsh Government budget, that it is a social justice budget.

Just to give you some examples of how I seek to influence that, I think tackling child poverty is really a good example of that. The original child poverty strategy back last year, which I launched, was a cross-Government child poverty strategy. Also, it was not just a cross-Government child poverty strategy, but of course I've mentioned the lived experience that we seek and the evidence of what is working and what is most effective for people's lives in terms of tackling child poverty, and we know that is investment in health, in education, in housing.

Leading up to the progress report, I've been having bilaterals with all Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers, just to test out the progress from the investments that they've made, and also what more has been done. Because in fact, we've been investing in a wider range of areas of policy, like the roll-out of free school meals. That is a significant investment, which is one of the key points of our child poverty strategy.

But also, in terms of the delivery of so many of our social justice objectives, it is through the third sector. We're working again with all our Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers, looking at what their responsibilities are in terms of supporting the third sector, supporting volunteering, supporting the new code of practice on funding for the third sector, which looks to multi-annual funding, which of course gives some sustainability to those organisations who are at the front line, often, of delivering so many services.

It is influencing the whole budget that I seek to do, which of course the Government is signed up to. And then it is important that we look at the investments that we are making in my budget, and I said I've done some repurposing. I think one of the areas of repurposing in terms of revenue, for example, is the fact that I've put more money into digital inclusion. That is very much a cross-Government commitment to support digital inclusion across Wales. It has an impact on accessing all our public services, and it's something where we put that additional funding in, which will benefit, of course, people across Wales in different circumstances, different protected characteristics as well.

Also, I think the way in which Wales is now becoming a Marmot nation means that there is going to be a tackling health inequalities drive to all of the health budget. But obviously, that's something where I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being are really clear that this has got to drive an agenda of equality, tackling inequality with the Marmot principles.

Okay. If I could move us on so we get to other important areas that we want to discuss. Sioned Williams.

Diolch yn fawr, and I think it is really important and useful that we look at the Bevan—. I was just looking at the Bevan Foundation report on the poverty profile that's come through as a result of the investment. I think what's important is that this is something where we have to look at emergency support and longer term support. I'm committed to supporting disadvantaged households in Wales. I think the cost-of-living focus is still so relevant, isn't it? So, it's how do we alleviate financial strain, maximise incomes, keep money in people's pockets.

Just in terms of the investments in my budget, our discretionary assistance fund is crucial, and that comes out very strongly in terms of lived experience and the Bevan Foundation assessment of what works and what's necessary. The single advice fund is crucially important as well in terms of ensuring that people are getting their entitlements from the benefits system, and our emergency food aid and emergency fuel support. So, the funding that is going to foodbanks, but also a much wider range of ways in which we are tackling food injustice. The Fuel Bank Foundation investment is crucially important as well.

So, it is about how we invest in those emergency areas of support for people, but it's also looking at more longer term. We want to look at more longer term ways in which we address poverty and inequality. That's why investment in our equality and inclusion guidance is so important. And also, I have to say, this is where it's not just us; it's working with local government and it's working with UK Government as well.

I want to make the point, just in terms of the forthcoming budget, that obviously we know, in terms of tackling child poverty, that scrapping the two-child limit is absolutely crucial. So, again, an opportunity, Chair, for me to make that point today as the UK Government budget is still—. We still await that on Wednesday.

But it is essential that this is something where we're working across the Government to ensure that we achieve my objective. So, it's not just my budget, I think, we need to be looking at, and certainly that's in the strategic integrated impact assessment; it's all budgets and what they're doing in terms of the delivery that we can invest in together to tackle poverty and inequality, and to improve opportunity.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. I think in terms of the discretionary assistance fund, it is very responsive, and I've met with the older people's commissioner to ensure that older people are able to access the fund. But just in terms of the discretionary assistance fund, we have engaged with key organisations, and we've gone back to lived experience to see what improvements we could be making.

I'm glad today that I can say that, from 1 January, all emergency assistance payments will be uplifted by 8.1 per cent. This is to, again, try and address the challenges of financial resilience in our communities and households. So, that's 8.1 per cent for emergency assistance payments uplifted from January. This is how we use our fund most effectively. In addition, individuals with childcare responsibilities but not in receipt of child benefit will be able to claim a larger amount of emergency assistance payment. So, that's about recognising the household size with a child or children.

And also, I think one of the important points that I'm going to be announcing as well is that we are considering reintroducing electric cookers later in the financial year. That's being discussed. If you remember, we went to the air fryer equipment, but we're now having feedback that electric cookers are what people need and want. But also, earlier this year, we made some changes to individual assistance payments to obtain household goods. We made changes earlier this year as well, you'll remember, in terms of domestic partners fleeing domestic abuse, and we're also looking at a BACS payment in place of a mobile phone voucher being made available for payments under £100. So, we do make changes to the discretionary assistance fund, because it is crucial that we learn from what works and how we can make it most effective.

But I do think, as I've said in my written evidence, that it is important that we're funding this direct emergency support, the discretionary assistance fund, alongside the single advice fund, emergency food aid, emergency fuel support. And that is available to all generations, but also particularly targeting the vulnerable groups that I think I've just identified. I hope that will be welcomed, that change I announced, particularly in terms of the emergency assistance payment, in January.

Julie Morgan, you wanted to—.

Yes, I just wanted to clarify. You said those without child benefit would be able to specifically benefit. I wondered if you could expand on what that meant.

Yes. So, it's families with childcare responsibilities, but not in receipt of child benefit, will be able to claim a larger amount of emergency assistance payment.

So, who would they be?

It's recognising household size with children. Do you want to come in on that, Amelia?

Yes. I'm Amelia John. I'm director of communities and social justice. It's for parents who have separated where the one parent is getting child benefit, but the other is not. So, they were precluded from applying for the discretionary assistance fund, but now they'll be able to apply for it, recognising that if they've got children coming to them, they will then be able to have bedroom furniture, et cetera. So, it's in recognition of that.

Thank you very much.

Altaf Hussain.

Will it be easy to run electric cookers and will it be cost-effective? It will be very costly to run electric cookers rather than gas.

Well, we always used to provide electric cookers and then we changed to air fryers, to try—. As you say, the fuel costs are relevant to this. But we have to recognise what people's needs and life needs are. And then, obviously, we are also, with the discretionary assistance payments and the emergency payments as well, able to help people with fuel costs, and people on fuel vouchers.

So, the £7.1 million to the Fuel Bank Foundation means that people can access fuel vouchers for prepayment meters. And that investment in the Fuel Bank Foundation is very important, because 89,000 fuel vouchers have been supplied through the Fuel Bank Foundation. This is something that I think we do have to acknowledge here today, Chair, that 3,467 throws have been funded through this Welsh Government and Fuel Bank Foundation partnership, because heated throws can help people in terms of cold weather, without using direct forms of energy. So, this is the reality for too many households, but we have got that Fuel Bank Foundation partnership, which, as emergency fuel support, is crucially important, and obviously there are other sources through Warm Homes and Nest as well.

Okay. I think it would be interesting to understand where the feedback came from to switch from air fryers to electric stoves. Perhaps you could send us a note about that. Sioned Williams.

Thank you for the question. I think this very much reflects back to some of the points about access to some of our emergency fuel support in terms of fuel energy support. I think it is important that we can also say today that it's vital that households claim their winter fuel payments. The Warm Home discounts, they should be paid automatically now by the UK Government, but it's really relevant for those households who have someone with a terminal illness. I obviously acknowledge that report from Marie Curie.

I also think this is something where, again, with the UK Government, we've been calling for a social tariff to protect vulnerable householders. That's something that I know, actually, the whole Senedd and this committee have called for as well because we do need that review of retail energy charges, and this would support all households with vulnerable people, or a medical tariff. That's something I think Jayne Bryant's been talking to the UK Government Minister for Energy Consumers about, and I have as well myself. So, that's something—. Again, you're scrutinising our budget, but we do need to look at other responsibilities, and the UK Government has key responsibilities. 

Of course, Marie Curie, I would want to also engage with them and refer them to our 'Claim what's yours' single advice service, Advicelink Cymru, to make sure that people in those situations are claiming all the benefits they're entitled to, including the council tax reduction scheme for Wales. Just looking at the most recent figures, 216,000 people don't pay council tax at all, and 256,000 receive council tax reduction support. So, that's something really important again, that we get the message over about entitlement, because this is where, through my budget, I'm funding those organisations that can help ensure, through Citizens Advice and all their specialist partners, that they do support their colleagues and other third sector charities, like Marie Curie, to ensure that they are advising all those that they engage with and support about their entitlements, as well as there being direct support that we can provide to those households as well.

Okay. We need to move on.

Can I just, really quickly—?

I have been very mindful of the impact of the national insurance increases, and that has actually influenced the funding that I've given to the third sector, not just the quantum of funding for the third sector, but also this revised code of practice that I've already mentioned, which is in my written evidence, for funding the third sector, to ensure that multi-year funding, which really gives that sustainability and safeguards third sector organisations, their workforce and volunteers. Indeed, we have taken this into account in terms of the uplift to the third sector infrastructure, to the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and to all those that we fund.

So, we've looked at ways in which we can support the third sector, particularly in terms of those extra pressures, and also looked at ways in which we can support them to gain other sources of funding. And that's something where, for the third sector, we've been working with the Charity Commission and Community Foundation Wales. We've got an extra £200,000 to help to unlock over £10 million of dormant trusts and foundations, and that's also really important in terms of the financial transaction capital, our community asset loan funds. That pot stands now at £7.5 million. So, this is about us, yes, trying to do what we can in terms of reaching and supporting where there have been extra pressures as a result of that national insurance uplift, but also a much bigger viewpoint, strategic viewpoint about how we support the third sector and how we can ensure that they can access further funds. And that's what I work on with the third sector partnership council very clearly, about what their situation is. What they want is security about funding particularly, and that's why I can't overemphasize the importance of that new code of practice, for third sector funding, which I raise with every colleague in the Cabinet, because they all fund in different ways—housing, environment, health, and social care. They're all funding the third sector as well. That doesn’t necessarily include all the charities, like Marie Curie, who are very much dependent on fundraising, and we mentioned them earlier on, but we do make sure that we are supporting the third sector in that way.

Okay. We need to move on. Jane Dodds. 

Well, I think I've already spoken quite a bit about short and longer term investments from my budget, but really it's very much dependent on the whole Government budget and approach to this. I do very much also—. Oxfam Cymru are always a useful source of evidence, but we’re also looking to the Bevan Foundation, I would say, as well, and others who provide us with that kind of support and advice and evidence. I address this quite a bit in my written statement, actually, in my written evidence, in terms of how we're addressing the longer term challenges in terms of tackling poverty. But, on longer term solutions, really, I've talked quite a bit about the emergency support, and longer term issues really relate also to ways in which we can address the well-being of future generations expectations in terms of prevention. I've just come from a really powerful meeting, I have to say, with the food partnership co-ordinators for Wales, who are very much addressing ways in which those food partnerships—we fund all of the partnerships across all 22 authorities—are doing fantastic work. I hope that that's something that you will look at in terms of our emergency food aid funding, but looking at ways in which our local food partnerships are doing much more long-term strategic work to tackle poverty and to deliver on the principles of a Marmot nation.

We'll be looking at that early next year. 

'Thousands of people across the nation are struggling to make ends meet, going without essentials and falling deeper and deeper into debt.'

As I said, I'm very much engaged, and respond to all those very independent and trusted—. They're providing trusted evidence to guide us, and I very much welcome the Bevan Foundation report that they published in June with Policy in Practice. They were looking at, you know, 'This is what we have to do.' And you, obviously, clearly, through your scrutiny look at what is the impact of our policy interventions to reduce poverty. And they made it clear in their report that no single policy lever alone will have an impact on poverty, and it does take action at all levels of Government. Of course, I've mentioned the UK Government and their impact in terms of social security for tax and benefits are crucial, but also the ways in which we promote fair work and income security, supporting pathways into secure, well-paid employment. In fact, that report in June made that key point that getting people into work, and fair work and well-paid work, is really, really important, as well as the investments that we're making to ensure we maximise income and get income into people's pockets. So, I do know this comes back to the employability support programme, doesn't it, in terms of Jack Sargeant's role. And that's been actively redesigned to ensure it has that poverty perspective. But it does mean embedding equality and inclusion across all policy areas—housing, health, education, and economic policies as well. It's got to be about how we tackle poverty holistically.

I think it's direct support for families, as I said, but also education and childcare. Free school meals have made a huge difference, and funding for fair work and income maximisation. But we can't also forget that the bigger social wage and the free prescriptions are really important, and the education maintenance grants uplift and the free school breakfasts. All of these are ways in which the Welsh Government is seeking to ensure that we get support services universally to people to address these issues. But it is clear that no single intervention can eliminate poverty, and it has to be across Government and then between Governments that we address these issues. 

Thank you. Quickly, before I move to Altaf.

Very quickly.

Well, they clearly have made a difference to those people's lives in terms of alleviating poverty. I mean, I was just interested to look at the snapshot of poverty from the Bevan Foundation, and I think it does say there are glimmers of hope, just in terms of extremes of living-cost spikes maybe receding. There are so many factors out of our control, but there is some very hopeful recognition that, as to those who are struggling to afford the essentials, the numbers have fallen modestly from 15 per cent in September 2024 to 12 per cent in September/October 25.

What we also need to see is that we're doing the longer term work in terms of investment. Of course, this goes into housing and employment particularly. So, with 14 years of austerity, there's no question, with the suffering and the deepening of inequalities, which was very much out of our hands, we've had to do an awful lot of mitigation and emergency support and intervention over those times. So, when we come and debate and discuss the child poverty progress report, again, it will be looking at what is making a real difference. Employment-based measures are crucially important. The reversal of the two-child limit is going to bring so many families out of poverty, and so we hope that that's going to happen.

Well, let's discuss that on Wednesday after we've heard from the Chancellor. Julie Morgan.

I was just going to say very quickly, don't you think it's very important to tackle child poverty right from the beginning of a child's life? And on the very welcome announcement of the baby bundles that will eventually now be coming, would the Cabinet Secretary agree that that is a step forward?

Absolutely. I think you asked me a question about it last week, and there was a written statement on the introduction of the baby bundles. The helpline is out for people to apply for the baby bundles, and it's something that, of course, was in our programme for government, and, certainly, you had an influence on it, Julie, in your former role as Minister.

But it is the early years that are crucially important, and it is the investment in Flying Start, which, of course, now is rolling out as we get local authorities on board in terms of intervention and Flying Start. At my meeting with the food partnership co-ordinators, a great many of them across Wales are doing work on the Healthy Start vouchers, which, again, can make a huge difference in terms of the early years. So, we have to look at all of these investments and the protection that we've given. Through the years of austerity, we protected Flying Start, and we ensured that we kept our free school breakfasts and also our childcare support. All of these have been crucial to enable us now to look ahead to ways in which we can support families coming out of poverty.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Coming to fuel poverty, given the findings of this committee in the fuel poverty inquiry that investment in the Warm Homes programme is nowhere near the level required to meet fuel poverty targets, what is your assessment of the 2 per cent uplift in capital funding for the programme and the impact this will have on progress towards meeting your fuel poverty targets? 

Thank you very much, Altaf. Clearly, the Warm Homes programme is the responsibility of my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, but I've been working absolutely closely, hand in glove, with her in terms of ensuring that the Warm Homes programme investment is making a difference. The 2 per cent uplift in capital funding for the Warm Homes programme is going to maintain the current levels of energy-efficient improvements and continue to help households at risk of fuel poverty.

Let's just say again, as we haven't said it so far today, that this is the draft—it's the start of the budget process, as we get the evidence about what the committees are considering. Let's just also think about the Warm Homes programme in terms of the fact that it's not the only grant funding available for households. With energy-inefficient homes, we've got £93 million allocated for the optimised retrofit programme in terms of the budget, investment in social housing, supporting fuel-poor households, and, again, the GB-wide schemes, for example ECO Flex, are available to every local authority in Wales. So, it's not just Warm Homes; we must remember it's all those other sources of funding, as well as the ways in which we can protect vulnerable households. I won't go through them again—the discretionary assistance fund, the Fuel Bank Foundation, et cetera. 

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Now, coming to the retrofits, have you had any discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to balance the need to decarbonise homes through, as you said, deeper retrofits with the urgent need to tackle fuel poverty?

I think that's really important, because it is about working with the Cabinet Secretary for housing, for me, to balance urgent fuel poverty needs with that longer term requirement for deeper retrofits and home decarbonisation. That also gives us the opportunity to look at future options to look at future options, contributing to our net-zero ambitions. I think the Nest scheme is very pragmatic. I just wanted to mention again, if it hasn't been mentioned before in committee, the crisis route for households without heating or hot water through the Nest scheme. Still, people can receive a highly energy efficient heating scheme very urgently. So, that's something where we work together on the crucial issues around decarbonisation and net zero, but also the retrofit programme, but I engage, of course, in terms of more urgent and emergency fuel poverty needs as well.

Jane Dodds, did you want to come in?

We do want to maximise the impact of our available funding. In terms of tackling fuel poverty, this is very much between my portfolio and that of the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. The Warm Homes Nest scheme has immediate and long-term outcomes and impact in terms of the investment. But also, we've got some important flagship residential decarbonisation programmes. I can only repeat what I've said—

Please don't, because we want to move on.

We've had a very difficult time in terms of 14 years of austerity. My budget is to tackle fuel poverty with the investments that we're making in terms of those fuel poverty schemes, which are helping people practically in terms of their lives. But clearly, there's always more that one could do and would want to do.

Okay. And you've invited us to feed back on things that we might want to emphasise in how we shape the final budget. Can I bring Mick Antoniw in now, please?

Cabinet Secretary, you've commented numerous times on the importance of the role of the voluntary sector in tackling poverty. I'd like your comments on the financial resilience of the voluntary sector, particularly bearing in mind that the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, in terms of its overall observation, says that there's no substantial improvement in the commissioning practices or funding availability for voluntary sector services offered by public bodies. There's obviously a concern there about the funding available. You've addressed that partly, but what are your thoughts in terms of the ability to strengthen the resilience of the voluntary sector?

Thank you, Mick Antoniw. As I've said, there's the code of practice for funding and the close engagement with the third sector partnership council, and I've also mentioned the fact that we're exploring a means of helping the third sector in terms of other sources of funding—I won't repeat those. I've been very impressed with the third sector recently, visiting projects that we've funded through the community facilities programme.

I was visiting, only a few weeks ago, the Denbighshire Mind organisation. They have purchased a building—the old butter market in Denbigh, if anyone knows it—with support from the community facilities programme, substantial grants of up to £250,000. They were then able to refurbish, with other grants, the building, and then rent out parts of the building for other third sector organisations, including voluntary-led initiatives like the museum. I've also been to a community shop—the Llandyrnog community shop—on my visit to north Wales, seeing how they're income generating but providing a hugely important community service as a result of our community facilities programme.

There is no doubt that capacity-building initiatives are being undertaken by the third sector—they're taking the initiative. Can I also commend Cymunedoli Cyf in Gwynedd, which is building hugely important community and social enterprise infrastructure in that part of north-west Wales, which is now being followed in other parts of Wales? I'm very keen that we focus on the fact that we need to give the third sector the security of the funding we can give them, and that, also, we access all of those dormant funds et cetera—community foundation funding. We are, then, moving forward, of course, in terms of developing this community policy to help take this forward.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you. Moving on to Sioned Williams.

There's clear commitment to this—it was in our programme for government, in terms of incorporating the UN conventions, and we will continue with that work. As you know, and again it's in my written evidence, we're shortly going to meet the group that was set up under our human rights advisory group, the legislative options working group, chaired by Charles Whitmore, with a wide range of equality organisations engaged with that. They are looking at ways in which we can move forward in terms of incorporation.

This is a challenge that is also being addressed and grasped in Scotland. We work very closely with the Scottish Government and Scottish civil society on this as well. We have provided funding, as indicated in my evidence, for work to be done, which started last year and is taking us up to the end of March—£143,000 plus to undertake this work. We'll wait for the report and see whether that will need further investment, but I look forward to seeing the outcome of that long-term work that they've been undertaking. It is important that this is work that's being undertaken by experts—human rights experts, civil society and academia.

We have the allocation for the work that they're doing now; then, we'll consider the outcome of the report in terms of funding for next year. I think there would be the flexibility to allow that, but we hope we'll have some firm recommendations that we can act on, rather than continuing investing in funding the work that's leading us, hopefully, to an outcome.

Thank you for that question. Again, like the child poverty strategy, the disabled people's rights plan is very much a cross-Government plan, and it's a cross-Government responsibility for all areas of the Welsh Government. The disabled people's rights plan is designed to influence policy development and funding across the Government. It is about, also, how we are seeking, through the plan, to remove barriers, at structural, systemic and institutional level, in terms of the obligations that we have and the intentions of the plan.

I think you will see already—and we see just in life's experience—the investment that's been made in transport, in housing, in education and health. It's all geared to delivering on the disabled people's rights plan, and it is very much a collaboration as well between the Welsh Government, local government and third sector organisations. I just wanted to pay tribute again to all those who engaged with us, disabled people's organisations, in developing the plan. But I'd like to see, for example, again, the fact that there's a big investment in transport now in terms of transport being accessible for all, through the active travel, through the accessible standards in health, the updated standards, which are now being implemented. This is all resulting in investment in other budgets across the Welsh Government in terms of delivery of that plan.

It's absolutely clear from working and co-designing this with disabled people and disabled people's organisations that we have to have a monitoring framework to assess the impact of the plan, but also, most importantly, and we've learnt this from the 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan', we're going to have an independent external advisory board. That is, I think, a key strength of the way we're working now, co-designing, co-production, lived experience, and then ensuring that this is monitored and scrutinised by disabled people themselves.

We'll shortly be publishing the plan, and I'll be able to give more details about how we're going to develop that, importantly, independent external advisory board. This is a 10-year plan, and I have to say as well that this is something where this committee I know has invested so much in terms of inquiries and scrutiny. We must give that safeguarding and support to those organisations that this is a 10-year plan. It's going to be taken forward and hopefully I'll be able to address this more—I have a statement next week anyway, Chair, on this.

Diolch, Sioned. This was a programme for government commitment that we haven't been able to deliver. It was a commitment to establish a dedicated equalities legal service. It's really critical, and I know this committee will welcome the fact it is about access to justice for people facing discrimination or human rights breaches. The intention is this service will help people to understand and exercise their rights, so they can challenge discrimination.

The funding is allocated for the next financial year, and I think we're now scoping the service. It's going to be very clearly linked to our advice services as well, so we're looking at the best route to deliver this. I think also the offer does include training and guidance for those advice providers and community organisations, so I'm very glad that we've been able to at least address this and get this scoped and set up, and we can obviously update you before, I'm sure, the final budget in terms of the way forward, if that would be helpful.

Thank you. We've now got half an hour left and we've got at least five areas that we need to pursue, so you need to all be brief. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary, last year you talked about a British Sign Language route-map. When do you think it will be published, and do you think any additional funding will be required in 2026-27 to support its implementation?

Thank you very much, Altaf. The work on the BSL route-map is very well advanced, and we anticipate it will be published early next year; 2026 is the goal. The key short-term priority actions are data collection, promotion of BSL, review of existing provision, mapping health and education pathways, and it again is cross-Government in terms of, as I've mentioned, health, education and existing provision. We will be looking at costs across relevant department budgets, but we still await the recommendations. So, for example, there are some costs, I can say—BSL translation requirements for public-facing materials, more interpreter provision. I know you've discussed this. They will have to be managed within departmental allocations. But, clearly, because we are scrutinising a Bill that we hope will progress, we have been able to already secure funding for the initial costs, the first year of the BSL Bill, for next year, and I know you're aware that it's up to a maximum of £214,000.

Now, we know that Government and public bodies are struggling with the appointment of the interpreters and translators. Given that the process will take some time, what funding has been allocated in this budget to kick-start the expansion of the BSL workforce in Wales? 

I think I've already answered that question. 

Okay. We'll come back to it once the Cabinet Secretary has seen our draft report, which we haven't yet released.

Okay, thank you.

So, can we move on to Julie Morgan?

Yes. Diolch. I think, Cabinet Secretary, you welcomed our report on social cohesion, and in that report we highlighted the important role the community cohesion programme has played in supporting communities to tackle the issues. I know that the money has been maintained, but was the Cabinet Secretary not able to increase it to deal with what seem to be even more issues emerging?

Yes, I think what's important is the community cohesion programme has proved itself, our community cohesion co-ordinators. Again, thank you, the committee, for your work on social cohesion. I look forward to the debate next week on this.

We have increased the budget by 25 per cent to £1.6 million for this financial year, and we are, of course, extending the budget for community cohesion co-ordinators until 2029, so there's a real commitment to that. And Hate Hurts Wales, the Wales Hate Support Centre, are all important in terms of that investment. Can I just say also that we've now set up our expert group on cohesion—your first recommendation—and they had their first meeting last week? I look forward again to being able to put more on that when we debate this in the budget. Thank you.

Yes, thank you very much, and I think we're all very pleased that you set up the expert group so swiftly as a result of our recommendation. So, the £7 million that you've put in the budget to implement the nation of sanctuary—

[Inaudible.] Sorry, I beg your pardon.

—nation of sanctuary approach, does that include funding the programme?

Yes. I did give very clear details about this in my written evidence in terms of the £7 million, because it actually helps us to continue with our nation of sanctuary approach, as set out in the 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan'.

I can give you some more detail. The Wales sanctuary service, funded to March 2027, is providing practical and emotional support with asylum processes, housing, education, English language learning and employment; support for people with no recourse to public funds—this is, again, part of this £7 million, including practice guides, training for local authorities—refugee move-on support to help newly-recognised refugees to secure accommodation, immigration legal advice and employability support; the British Red Cross family reunion integration service, funded to March 2027; and the ongoing costs with supporting our Ukrainian response.

I wanted to give all of those details today to show what this is, in terms of our funding on our nation of sanctuary, and it's actually underpinning a co-ordinated, compassionate approach to integration, ensuring that sanctuary seekers and refugees can contribute positively to Welsh life.

I think we all support that view. We are very concerned about not going ahead with the welcome ticket, and that view has been expressed to us by a lot of organisations. So, what has happened to the £0.7 million that was allocated in the 2025-26 budget, and what funding has been allocated in this budget to look at alternatives?

I was very disappointed indeed that we couldn't follow on the welcome ticket. I've written to the committee, I think, Chair, and you'll have all seen—. We did work hard to see how it could be delivered, and, of course this is not just Welsh Government—we're very dependent on our partners, as we said, in local authorities in terms of delivery options. So, we're now looking at practical alternatives for supporting sanctuary seekers—transport for all strategies are crucial in terms of concessionary fares, supporting active travel initiatives. I think that goes back to the cross-Government engagement that we've had. So, we haven't reallocated or assigned a new funding line in the 2026-27 draft budget, but we will look at options for how our budget can be used in terms of these commitments, as I've already explained in terms of the nation of sanctuary and 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan'. This is something where we want to look at ways in which we can develop this, consider it, and we'll work with partners, as I said in my letter, to look at practical alternatives. We also look to Scotland, we look to other ways in which other countries might be doing this. There are issues in terms of data, legal and contractual constraints, but that should not move us away from our wish and objective to try and find a way to support sanctuary seekers in this way.

Okay, we'll probably have some correspondence on that in due course. Could we just move on now to Jane Dodds's questions?

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. I did have quite a section in my written evidence about investment in the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence budget. We have got to make sure that this does deliver maximum impact for victims, and supports those innovative approaches to prevention. I already, earlier on, I think, talked about highlighting this primary, secondary and tertiary intervention. This is about learning, again, from projects between regions to strengthen the pan-Wales offer for 2026-27. So, we've got some really good examples of early intervention projects on regional allocations, community-based prevention campaigns, research-based projects, digital-access solutions. On digital access, we've got online platforms for confidential advice and support for parents and guardians of children experiencing VAWDASV or engaging in potentially harmful behaviours. So, we're going to closely monitor that uplift to make sure it does reach those, and learn from those innovative allocations that have already been made.

It's interesting that the curriculum and extra-curricular influence comes in here, which, I think, is really useful, in terms of education, working with the education colleagues. But also—and we've mentioned the vigil and the meetings we had last week—the Sound communications campaign, involving men and women. And as far as children are concerned, children's needs are addressed. We have a children and young people's work stream in our work on the national strategy for tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. It's mainstreamed, rather than separated into different funding streams, but the regional partnerships themselves can allocate resources to child-focused interventions. And also that dedicated work stream has influenced the way money's being spent. So, specialist services now are being provided on counselling, play therapy, advocacy for children who experience domestic abuse. Again, I go back to programmes in schools and communities as well. It is important that we have the child health independent sexual violence advisers, the CHISVAs, and the child key workers that are being provided. And also education, social services as well, and health all contribute to tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in terms of how they affect children.

Well, the children's needs are addressed through the mainstream VAWDASV budget, but also regional partnerships fund specialist services, as I said, which actually directly support children.

Fine. We'll follow that up in a written request. Could I now bring in Mick Antoniw, please? Mick Antoniw, would you like to pose your questions on criminal justice and community safety?

Yes. I just want to ask a few questions, really, just about the overall investment in criminal justice policy, and how the funding in respect of relevant budget expenditure lines and allocations compares to previous years, and where you see this heading, Cabinet Secretary. 

Thank you very much for that. Well, this is something, in terms of criminal justice, where we have, again, shared responsibilities with the Deputy First Minister, who, of course, is responsible for constitutional affairs in relation to criminal justice. But what we are now doing, and what we have been doing over the past year, is working together in terms of moving forward with devolving youth justice and probation. And that's where I know the Deputy First Minister, for example, is having very productive discussions with the UK Government and is, in fact, shortly meeting with David Lammy, of course, with his new responsibilities in terms of justice. We're very confident that we are moving forward in terms of the devolution of youth justice in terms of the first steps that have to be taken with youth justice in terms of strategic oversight, partnership and governance  arrangements, and funding of youth justice as starting points. We fund through the Deputy First Minister's responsibilities, and, of course, I mentioned this in my written evidence, that we are also funding a justice research programme. We're funding a Wales Centre for Public Policy project looking at a memorandum of understanding model like they have in Greater Manchester, in terms of devolving Wales's probation services—the first step in terms of that direction. So, it is very much investing and into next year, through particularly the DFM's budget, ways to take this forward.

Well, look, thank you for that. I mean, there's obviously long overdue progress on this and the evidence has been built up over many, many years. The overlap between youth justice, and, again, in terms of the issues relating to probation and people leaving prison and so on, overlap massively with devolved functions. So, in terms of the timescale on this, though, when you say progress is being made, is that progress being made as quickly as you'd like to see? To what extent has funding been available for that progress? Should it speed up, particularly now, as it looks as though there is a much more positive response coming from David Lammy as Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice?

Well, clearly, we hope as much can be done before the end of this administration and this Senedd term. I think there's nothing more I need to say in terms of investments in budgets now and into the future. It's paving the way for that progress to be made.

Can I just add also, from last week, you will have heard me say in response to your question very clearly now that we want to also look at the prospects for devolving policing because of the abolition of the police and crime commissioners? So, that will be, I hope, for the future Government, a key priority as we work through this in terms of the implications of the abolition of police and crime commissioners and the need for that new governance for Wales.

But as far as my responsibilities are concerned, I am still very responsible for what we're delivering now in terms of women's justice and youth justice in Wales because of our blueprints, which of course have been very, very important in proving the case for the devolution of youth justice, probation and policing, I believe.

Well, thank you for that. We obviously look forward to further progress reports on those, as it now seems that some of the intransigence is being overcome in those particular areas.

Can I ask you a little bit about funding in respect of British Sign Language? Because, obviously, preventive intervention for children in contact with the justice system is something that is of importance. I think you've noted that in the past. The Government hasn't allocated any dedicated funding for speech and language therapy in the 2026-27 draft budget. How does that decision align with the stated commitment to early intervention and prevention?

Well, this committee has done very valuable work in terms of the recognition of the interface between speech and language therapy and preventative intervention in terms of youth justice. You will know, in fact, in response to debates that have been held in the Senedd, that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has confirmed that it's local health boards who are responsible for determining needs in terms of speech and language therapies. Obviously it's a health treatment, which, if it's clinically required, they have the responsibility for that. But also I think what's important in terms of my portfolio is to ensure that youth justice service teams do have access to speech and language communication needs, and where they need that, they need to be able to commission it from the NHS. There are funding streams. For example, in terms of prevention and youth justice, the UK Government's Turnaround funding scheme, which is used in Wales to great effect, has been renewed for this financial year. We need to perhaps explore whether the UK Government is going to continue it into the next financial year. Speech and language therapy is key in terms of prevention and intervention and youth justice services, but it's not within my portfolio to fund that service.

A very quick question, then, just to finish off, in respect of PCSOs, police community support officers. We've obviously funded that in the past, partly to make up for cuts in funding, even though this is not a devolved area of responsibility, except of course it does overlap with the issue of community safety. You've obviously made provision for a 3 per cent uplift in respect of that funding, but the funding has been reducing. I'm just wondering what discussions are perhaps going on in respect of funding, because this is a matter, obviously, where funding should be being taken over by UK Government, but also really where you see the development of this funding and the sufficiency in respect of support for the police community support officers, and any discussions that perhaps are taking place with regard to that funding and funding into the future.

Thank you, Mick, for that question, and you know that we had such a difficult time for the 2024-25 budget—unprecedented financial pressures as a result of actions taken by the then Conservative Government. So, in 2024-25, we provided £15 million of funding for PCSOs. This was built on a long-standing commitment by the Welsh Government to fund PCSOs, which have been so effective in the community. We've maintained the funding this financial year. We had a 3 per cent increase to cover projected cost-of-living rises, so that brought it up to £16 million, and the draft budget for maintaining this is £16.3 million for the next financial year. But we do believe, and I think I said this last week, that PCSOs make such a difference in our communities, at the front line of policing. We're doing a review of PCSOs, which will be helpful in terms of evaluation, but also I think this is part of our conversations and a case for devolving policing to Wales, about the fact that we have put all this investment into PCSOs for so many years.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about Gypsy and Traveller site provision. I think the figure of 236 new pitches is in your submission. I just wondered if you could clarify: are those individual pitches? Over what length of period is this? And what is the number of local authorities who have put these in?

I've given quite a lot of detail in terms of Gypsy and Traveller sites, and the figure of 236 pitches is an estimate from local authorities. It also does include sites that don't currently have planning permission, so it's that rather than confirmed applications at this stage. I can't give you the local authorities' details of which local authorities are developing those sites at the moment. Perhaps in the next few weeks we might be able to do that. But that's an indicative estimate at this stage.

Obviously, that is a lot more than have been submitted for a number of years, which obviously is very encouraging. But what about being able to pay for them, because the £3.44 million has been the same for a number of years? How do you anticipate taking these forward?

Well, there has been renewed and increased investment, working with local authorities. It is the local authorities' responsibility in terms of them meeting their Gypsy, Roma and Traveller accommodation assessments. We are very pleased that we've got more indication of those applications for funding, but we've got this £3.44 million for the draft budget, which obviously I've indicated for next year. That's unchanged, because we've not fully dispersed it up until now, as you know. But also we do have to ensure that local authorities do deliver on their estimates. Some of the estimates that come forward from local authorities will not be for one-year funding, it'll be multi-annual funding that they will need. And even now, if we get a proposal now, it may be for a development in 2027-28 because it takes so long in terms of the run-in. But we will consider increasing that budget and levering in additional resources if, working together, local authorities and Welsh Government can show that actually we are going to spend the money. One positive point is that I understand that planning permission has been delivered for up to 122 new pitches. So, I think that gives an indication for the next financial year that we're halfway through perhaps the big bigger picture of the 236.

Yes, thank you very much for that. We were concerned as to whether the 236 was accurate, basically, because it did seem such a large increase on previous years. But obviously it is multi-faceted and we'll be able to get a lot more information from you in the future. Can I just ask, as a last question, are there any transit sites in those proposals?

Yes. In my written evidence I do indicate that there's a bid to develop a transit site for six new pitches. This is something where we are—this follows up recommendations from the Local Government and Housing Committee—looking at ways in which transit should be provided, working with Gypsy Traveller communities themselves, but also looking at regional patterns. So, we will be able to report back to this committee and the Local Government and Housing Committee on what is the way forward in terms of transit in Wales. But it's good that we've got one bid in, clearly identified in my evidence.

Thank you very much. I think the important point is that you work with Gypsies and Travellers to see if this is what they see as the most important thing.

Well, I think it does give me a very quick opportunity to say that we have done a lot more work, working with Gypsy and Traveller families, and I thank Julie Morgan for chairing the cross-party group on Gypsy, Roma, Travellers, because that has also brought in a lot more feedback and engagement on a variety of policy issues, including housing and education. But in terms of transit and ways in which local authorities can work with Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people, we've set up regional meetings, and the organisations that we fund—we fund three different organisations to help us ensure that we get this right with the lived experience of Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people. 

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Well, there's a lot that needs tying down before the end of this Senedd, but we'll obviously write to you about that. I just briefly want to mention advice services. We thank you for the detail of what's in the budget for the EU settlement scheme, because it's highly relevant to the report, our final report, which is being launched tomorrow. So it's useful to know that both Settled and TGP Cymru are getting some targeted support in next year's budget. I just want to ask about the analysis undertaken by Alma Economics and the written evidence from Citizens Advice Cymru that they are overwhelmed by demand that they're unable to meet. My question really is: why are local authorities not doing the basic advice services—housing, education and those sorts of things—to enable Citizens Advice Cymru and their partner organisations to concentrate on the more complex issues? My question is, really, whether all local authorities do what Cardiff does, which is to have these hubs where people can get the basic advice. I'm not familiar with what goes on elsewhere. How do we ensure that local authorities are exercising their duties and not just passing it all on to Citizens Advice Cymru?

Thank you for those questions. We had a really interesting reception event last week, which Citizens Advice Cymru organised, and Dame Clare Moriarty, the chief executive of Citizens Advice UK, came and congratulated Wales on the single advice fund and the partnerships that are engaged with the single advice fund. We were allocating money for that on the basis of our needs analysis and predictive modelling, which was undertaken in 2023. But I think what came over very strongly—a point that I made earlier on—is the fact that I've made it three-year funding has made a huge difference to the advice services community in Wales. Clearly, they have to work with their local authorities, but, of course, many local authorities are funding Citizens Advice and other partners to give expert advice, and that has just developed historically. I think the £36 million over the next three years is crucially important in terms of the 'Claim what's yours' campaign. Again, I think, in terms of the funding that's been allocated, it is really important, and it was said last week that, as a result of all these services, £208.9 million extra income has come into people's households and pockets and into the economy, and £66.3 million of debt written off. That was said very clearly last week when we heard from Citizens Advice about the impact of those services.

Yes, local government has responsibility, but something that hasn't been mentioned—and can I just again endorse it—is the importance of our Welsh benefits charter and the work that we're doing and the investment we're making. You will have seen that I've put another £0.5 million into that for next year. We cannot deal with all of the important questions you've asked me today about tackling poverty and ensuring people maximise incomes and get their entitlements without local government; they are our welfare state with us. They're the ones who can deliver on getting those three benefits: free school meals, the school essentials grant and the council tax reduction scheme. And many authorities are doing it—they're passporting it, they're enabling it. We want all local authorities to deliver on our welfare benefits charter for Wales. I do hope that you'll endorse that in your committee scrutiny.

Thank you for that, and thank you also for enabling us to get through quite a large agenda. [Laughter.] But, as you've pointed out, this is the first iteration of scrutiny of next year's budget, and, obviously, there are several things we want to write to you about, but which we haven't had time to cover the detail of. We'll also send you the transcript, obviously, for you to check that it's accurate. Thank you very much for your attendance, and we look forward to further discussions on this.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

There are five papers to note. Are Members content? Do you want to raise it?

Yes, may I just put on record my concerns around the letter from Lord Timpson—I think it's page 91 in your pack—in terms of what the offer is to us for data for the Welsh prison system. There are no timescales in his proposals apart from on one, which is 2026, so I'd like us to consider a response that asks for specific timescales to his offer of data. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Okay. I think there are quite a few issues around all of this, some of which have been mentioned this morning by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, so I think we, perhaps, may wish to see if we can bring these things together. Mick Antoniw.

Just a couple of comments on the same letter. Obviously, we'd had the letter from Rob Jones about the fact that there, clearly, is progress being made in some areas. I have to say I didn't understand Timpson's letter, because it seemed to obfuscate by referring to hundreds and hundreds of different sources and so on, which seemed to actually work against the idea that there should be greater clarity as to the data that is available. I'm just wondering if some thought could be given to what the letter is actually telling us, because I have to say I didn't get any clarity about precisely what additional information is being made available, certainly some heads, and how that fitted in with the scale of what they're saying is already there and how that is going to be brought together. That's really quite important in terms of understanding. The last thing you want is bits of information scattered all over the place, whereas you want it in a constructive manner. So, I just wonder if some thought could be given, perhaps in response, taking up the point that Jane Dodds made in terms of timescales, but also the format, because that's what seems to be really important to understanding what is being made available.

Thank you for that, Mick Antoniw. I can just tell committee members that Dr Robert Jones has confirmed that he is available to come and discuss his work at our meeting on Monday 15 December. So, it would be useful to try and get some clarification out of Lord Timpson's office to inform the discussion we're going to have with Dr Jones on that. Thank you for those points.

Can I now ask Members to agree to move into private session for the rest of this meeting? Do we need to do it for the next meeting as well?

No.

No. Okay, fine. I see no dissent.