National Assembly for Wales

This meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. There are no apologies today, and I'd like to just say that this is our last committee of the sixth Senedd, so I will say more towards the end about it, but there we are. Could I just ask committee members to note any declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during proceedings?

So, we move on to the inquiry, which was petition P-06-1510, 'Direct NRW to revoke the environmental permit and ensure the closure of Enovert’s, Hafod Landfill Site in Wrexham'. Could I invite Rhys to lead discussion of the responses and any further actions you think the committee should take?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We're grateful to the petitioner for the legacy statement he has sent to us and some detailed rebuttal of the evidence we received from Welsh Government, Natural Resources Wales, Wrexham County Borough Council and Enovert. He's also to be congratulated for leading a campaign that has led to great awareness. His evidence to us as a committee was passionate. He is obviously very knowledgeable in what he was saying and obviously cares about his local community. I think it shows the awareness he has raised, the fact that we've got two petitions coming up now—we're going to discuss one later on, another one in the pipeline—with regard to landfill and odours emanating from landfill. So, I think the petitioner can be congratulated on his work.

It's good news that Welsh Government has rejected only one of our recommendations, and it's fair to say that they have given a detailed response and a logical reason why they rejected that one. But having one rejected out of 11 is, I think, very good going, and Welsh Government's response was very supportive of our recommendations with regard to Wrexham council, for them to improve their communication and engagement. We quite often see that a lot of these issues deal with a lack of communication and clear engagement by public bodies with their local communities. So, it's good to see Welsh Government supporting our recommendation for improvement in that area.

The petitioner has asked for four things from us: to request Enovert to release raw data for all three reports—I think we could write to Enovert requesting that; that we support an independent third party audit of the raw data—we can ask Enovert to look into that; to send the petitioner's comments to the Cabinet Secretary, and I think that we can easily do that. Where I don't agree with the petitioner is his request for us to keep this open for the seventh Senedd. This matter has been scrutinised a lot by this committee. There's been detailed evidence taken and considered. This will be a matter for a new Cabinet Secretary and a new committee that scrutinises that Cabinet Secretary. Also, there will be work for the local authority with regard to communication and engagement ongoing. I think if an issue arises in the future, of course, the petitioner could always bring a new petition. But I think this is as far as this committee can take it. So, I'd thank the petitioner, forward on his comments to the relevant bodies and close the petition. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Rhys. Anybody else like to comment? As you said, there are two petitions now, aren't there, two further ones? There's one that's following on from this, but also another one that calls for recommendation 3, mandatory automated monitoring, to be introduced, which is good. So, going forward, then—. And I welcome all the responses as well from Wrexham and Enovert. Wrexham's response confirms it will be taking an active role in implementing the recommendations. They remain concerned about the impact on residents and want to ensure all parties remain accountable. So, I think that's been a really important part of this exercise, hasn't it, that accountability? So, actions. If we could forward the petitioner's comments to the Cabinet Secretary and ask Enovert if the petitioners could have the raw data, just so that they could have somebody look at it themselves, for that transparency.

And whether they can consider giving it to an independent third party.

Just for that impartiality, basically, I suppose, and independence. Thank you, Rhys. Okay, thank you. And then we'll close the petition and thank the petitioner for all his work on it.

We move on now to new petitions, and it's petition P-06-1573, 'Protect Llanidloes: Stop illegal & dangerous gas and water pollution from Bryn Posteg Landfill now'. So, it says,

'NRW’s own reports confirm Bryn Posteg is a "Significant" risk. In 2025 alone, the site recorded methane levels of 84% (safety limit 1%) and discharged solids into the Nant Y Bradnant at 140x the legal limit. Officers were forced to abandon checks in specific zones due to dangerous gas levels triggering their personal safety alarms. Despite being labelled the "worst performing landfill in Wales," pollution continues, impacting local residents. We demand intervention to prevent irreversible damage.'

And this was submitted by Xander Ashwell, with 837 signatures. We've had quite a lot of discussion in the Chamber, haven't we? We had an event as well recently, which Michael Sheen attended. He's doing a series called Buried, so there's been lots of discussion about PFAS and lifelong chemicals. Could I invite Joel to discuss this petition and any action you wish the committee to take?

Thank you, Chair. As you mentioned, there's already a live petition, I think, that we're looking to move to the seventh Senedd about mandatory automated recording. I'm conscious of my colleague Rhys's comments about the work we've already done with the previous petition, but I do think there's a lot that needs to be done here, really. I know it's coming late in the day for us as a committee, but I definitely think we as a committee are mindful to push this one back over to the seventh Senedd committee, and maybe highlight it with the relevant Cabinet Secretary, and maybe committee, to say that this is coming. And then obviously with yourself, Chair, if you wanted to prod maybe the Chair of the next committee, but if not, leave a prod for the next Chair, as they say.

Yes.

And yes, I think that's probably the best step, really.

Okay. So, keep it open and refer it to the seventh Senedd's petitions committee, and I hope they will have a stand-alone committee to look at this and other petitions. When we've been questioning the Cabinet Secretary, he's been saying that the UK Government are looking at a PFAS plan, and water quality is so high on the agenda as well, isn't it? So, I think all this feeds into that, and it's something that needs to have the spotlight shone on it. So, okay, thank you. Is everybody in agreement? Yes, great.

So, that leads us on to updates to previous petitions, and petition P-06-1291, 'Hold an enquiry into the corporate takeover of the veterinary profession in Wales'. This was submitted by Dr Linda Joyce-Jones, with 308 signatures. I dropped in to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee session where it was discussed last week, with Linda Joyce-Jones, to hear what was said, which was interesting. Could I invite Vaughan to take us through the petition?

Yes. Thank you, Chair. I should draw Members' attention to my register of interests. It confirms that I'm an honorary member of the British Veterinary Association. My father was a veterinary surgeon, working on a mixed practice of small household animals and, indeed, large farm animals as well.

This petition has just over 300 signatures, 256 are from Wales, and it's been with us for over three and a half years. The petition has been considered in the committee on, I think, seven occasions. It's been regularly considered by us. The last time, we agreed to keep a watching brief pending the report from the Competition and Markets Authority. Their interim report has been published. Not only that, but at the last Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, the Deputy First Minister, who is the portfolio Minister at present, had questions on this particular area. There is a consultation, following the interim report, being led by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that closes on 25 March, so people watching this should have their attention drawn to that and the opportunity to take part in it. The CMA is apparently due to publish its final report in May of this year. So, near the start of the seventh Senedd, that final report will be available.

I think the challenge is whether this committee believes that the petition should be kept open and drawn to the attention of the seventh Senedd or closed at this point. My own view, having thought about it seriously, is that we should close the petition. I'll explain why. The headline of the petition is to launch an inquiry into the corporate takeover of the veterinary profession in Wales, and there has been an inquiry. There is both the CMA inquiry and this committee held a one-day inquiry, and our main policy and scrutiny committee in this area has had ministerial scrutiny of it. I think that when you look at the headline of the petition, that inquiry has taken place and is ongoing. There will be a final report and I would expect that either a successor committee or, indeed, the main subject committee would want to examine the CMA's report and what it means. It's more than just the profession; it's a key part of the way the rural economy works and indeed the fact that there are pet owners in urban and rural Wales who will take an interest in how their services are organised.

It appears to me that the broad purpose of the petition has been served in the more than three and a half years it's been before this committee, and the inquiry has taken place. The choices to be made are not ones that we can anticipate because we don't yet have the final report. I think the choice about how to pursue that should be left to the seventh Senedd, and indeed the petitioner, I'm sure, will keep a watching brief over it. The petitioner has not just had the opportunity to talk to the cross-party group that the Chair chairs, wearing one of her other hats, but also the opportunity to talk to the committee clerk of the main subject committee. So, my view is that, on balance, we should leave the next Senedd open about how it chooses to take up the CMA final report when it's published, rather than maintain the petition for what would then likely be a fourth year since it was submitted. I'm sure that a future committee, and indeed the main policy committee, will be aware of the work itself. So, that's my recommendation to the committee. I look forward to seeing what other Members have to say in making a choice.

Okay. Would anybody else like to come in on this? Well, as chair of the cross-party group on animal welfare, I'd like to thank Linda Joyce-Jones for her tenacity and perseverance over this. It has certainly raised the profile of what's been happening, the corporate takeover of vets. So, 1,500 vets, approximately, have been taken over by six large corporates; one of them alone took over nearly 1,000, which has impacted on pet owners, pricing. They've apparently had targets for selling to pet owners as well. This should all come out in the CMA report, hopefully. But it impacts on pets, pet owners. Linda's raised that the corporates also own laboratories, drug companies, pet crematoria—produce dog food as well. And from vet school to recruitment, through the practice, they have an advantage. I've been talking to some employees as well, who've been impacted. I'm sure—well, hopefully—it will be taken forward into the seventh Senedd, under some—

New arrangements.

—arrangement going forward.

I think it's fair to note, Chair, that the challenges over pricing and the structure of the veterinary market have been mainstream news in a way that was simply not before, and that is because of the interest in the area, and the fact there is a Competition and Markets Authority report under way. So, it's part of the reason why I have confidence that this matter won't simply be forgotten and brushed away.

No. Okay. So, we will close this petition and, hopefully, somebody will take it forward under the seventh Senedd.

I'm sure they will, Chair.

Okay. So, that then leads us to the review paper, petitions under consideration. We've got a number of them, which shows how popular and important this committee is. Could I invite Members to consider the paper and agree or amend the tables set out in it? We've got annex A, which are petitions for referral to the seventh Senedd, and annex B, petitions for closing. I'll just comment here that, in reaching a decision, Members will note, as set out in paragraph 2, that closing a significant number prior to dissolution will give the incoming committee more space to decide its own priorities and ensure that it is only considering relevant issues, and prevent existing petitions from stopping new petitions being submitted on similar topics in the seventh Senedd. The paper also reminds Members of the key principles they agreed at an earlier meeting to decide which petitions to refer on. Members will also note, from annex C of the paper, that there are already 20 new petitions that are over the threshold of 250 for consideration by the seventh Senedd. Additionally, at the time of writing, there are another 31 petitions open that are under the threshold. So, that would make 51. And new petitions are coming forward for moderation every day. They will continue to come forward; the online system will not close for new petitions until dissolution on 7 April.

There are actually three over 10,000 for debate already for the new Senedd. One of them, around the tethering of horses and getting them help when neglected, I think it's got nearly 12,000 signatures, which is amazing. The one on Withybush hospital, calling for health board intervention, again, that's over 11,000 signatures. And they have decided—. That one won't close til August, and they decided to take that forward, as well, to the seventh Senedd, to give it a good airing. And the musical theatre dance one, which we discussed last week, that was over 10,000 as well, so that will be discussed by the seventh Senedd. So, lots there already; lots of work for them to do.

So, to just take annex A first, these are the petitions to consider referring to the seventh Senedd. One of them is about the drug Xonvea, which is P-06-1550, 'Place the drug Xonvea on to the formulary for the management of nausea and vomiting in pregnancy'. Lindsay, you spoke very strongly about this. Would you like to comment on it?

I did, Chair, and thank you for allowing me to speak on this item. I would like the seventh Senedd to still consider this particular petition. I've had so many heartbreaking stories, from younger couples, mainly, who wish to start families. Looking at the letter from the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group and the professor—. Far be it from me to argue with the professor of such a prestigious organisation, but it does look as though clinicians and patients do have differing views, and it looks as though the correspondence is continuing between the petitioners and the clinicians, and I wouldn't like to simply close it. I still feel that there must be some hope.

I sometimes think it is a little bit of a postcode lottery. I know that there are several health boards in England who allow Xonvea almost as a matter of course, and I think the debate is still open here in Wales for the reasons outlined, for the young people who I have had correspondence from who have terminated their pregnancies due to the severity of the illness that they have suffered. If Xonvea can be made available—and it is for some, but not for all—then I would ask that we continue to keep this petition open please, if that's possible.

We heard some heartbreaking stories, didn't we—

Very sad indeed.

—about the report. I've had an e-mail about somebody who was trying to have access to it, and the pathway was really complicated. She had it in the end, but it just did not make sense. So, I think more work needs to be done.

I think so. I think so. And I'm sure that—. There is good on both sides, obviously; I'm not saying the clinicians are heartless. They make it clear in their correspondence they're not heartless and they have enormous sympathy, but I do feel there's a little bit more work to be done just yet.

Yes. Can I just draw your attention as well? We need a decision on petition P-06-1548, 'Welsh Government to provide fair funding to Cardiff Council to enable essential works on Roath Park Primary'. It was proposed to keep it open and write to the portfolio Minister for a response to be considered by the successor committee, if one is still not received by 16 March, which it hasn't been. Should we just continue it over? Just thoughts on that one, really. Any thoughts from anybody? No?

Was that the Roath Park school?

Yes. 

Yes, because I know we've been chasing a response for that, as you said, from October. It's not really good enough. I know that school's been under scaffolding for a lot longer than that, and it's not the only school in Cardiff, really.

There's been funding, hasn't there, for twenty-first century schools, or schools in the community for new schools, but then if there are old schools that need maintenance, then the funding's a bit different.

Yes. Because I know that, some of the schools I've visited, they're caked in black mould and everything, and they have issues with damp. These are the historic old schools. So, I definitely think it would be worthwhile keeping it open if we could.

Okay. So, we'll keep that open. Any others in that list you want to comment on? No? Okay, so we'll keep those open. And then annex B. These are petitions to consider closing. These are over the page. Are there any here? There are three pages there. These are all on the public record, aren't they? They're all available publicly for people to see. Regarding the last one there on that list, P-06-1562, 'Improve breast screening uptake for women in Wales', we've just received a letter with some actions in it, but we've not shared it with the petitioner yet. But we did say, I think, previously that we would close it. We just kept it open for a response to the letter from the Cabinet Secretary, which we've received. Okay, so are we happy to close it now? Okay. All Members? Okay, thank you. We will close that now. I know that we've had lots of discussions about the importance of early screening and detection, and I know that's so important for all parties going forward, isn't it? So, thank you.

That brings me on to papers to note. Are Members happy to note those papers? Okay.

And then, before we go into private, I'd just like to make a closing statement as we come to our last petition of the sixth Senedd. I'd like to thank all Members for taking part in this committee. Jack, who was the previous Chair, always referred to it as the people's committee, and we're going to consider the legacy report afterwards, and we're considering giving it that title, 'The People's Committee'.

We've had some really important debates and inquiries. I feel that the Petitions Committee is vital to giving people a voice, and I'm hoping that, going forward, it will remain a standalone committee. I've made representations on that, but I know the Business Committee wanted to leave it up to the seventh Senedd to make that decision. Whoever comes back, I hope you will push for that.

Many petitions have raised awareness and resulted in real change. I would just like to say, when we actually meet people as well, it makes such a difference, doesn't it? There is a line in our legacy report, if I can find it, that I just want to highlight. It says:

‘Members have frequently met with petitioners prior to discussing their petition—gaining real insight from the first-person stories…. The stories can be harrowing, heartbreaking, frustrating, and sometimes inspiring. But they stay in the memory in ways that even the most thoroughly researched and beautifully written words on a page can struggle to achieve.’

I just would like to pass on to the next petitions committee: meet people, if they want to come and hand over their petition, and make the effort, if you get invited, to go to a site visit if there’s time as well. It makes such a difference.

I’d like to thank the committee members, but I’d also like to thank the clerks. Thank you for all that you do. I know there's a lot of work that goes on in the background, handling the inquiries, helping deal with enquiries regarding the petitions process. People put a lot of effort into petitions, don't they, gathering all those signatures. It can become a passion for them. So, it’s about making sure that people feel valued for all that work.

Finally, to all the petitioners, thank you very much for sending your petitions in and for gathering those signatures.

Chair, could I say something?

Yes. 

I'm probably the Member who's been on this committee longest now. I even served under your predecessor, Jack Sargeant. But it’s been obvious to me, your compassion and passion for these petitions, and being able, as you’ve just said there, to put yourself in the shoes of the petitioners—that has been clear to me throughout your chairmanship. So, can I add to the thanks by thanking you, and thanking you and the clerking team for your patience with us as members? It has been an honour to be on this committee with you. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Rhys.

With that, that takes us up to agenda item 7. We have concluded the public business, so I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolve to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? You’re content. We’ll move to private, please.