National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee.

We are continuing our inquiry into the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill and today we have witnesses from local government, including representatives from the Welsh Local Government Association. I'd just like to ask you all to introduce yourselves and in what capacity you're appearing today. So, if I start off with Ash Lister, in the room.

Diolch, Chair. I'm Ash Lister. I'm the cabinet member for children's services in Cardiff but I'm also a WLGA deputy spokesperson for health and social care. And just to make the committee aware, I'm also trustee of the Cambrian Educational Foundation for Deaf Children. 

Thank you. Cathryn Morgan, could you just say who you are? 

Yes. Good afternoon. I'm the equality and inclusion manager with Ceredigion County Council. 

Very good. Lee Wenham.

Thank you. Yes, I'm Lee Wenham. I'm Swansea Council's head of communications and corporate planning and performance, and part of my area covers equalities and human rights.

Okay. We've got a lot of echo on your sound quality. I wonder if the sound engineer could just try and sort that out. And Sarah Capstick.

Good afternoon. I'm Sarah Capstick. I'm senior policy officer for social services and health with the Welsh Local Government Association, and I've been leading on some of the work around the Bill and engaging with Welsh Government officials.

Thank you very much. I'd like to start us off with two or three general questions. First of all, I wondered if you could just tell me how you meet the needs of BSL signers at the moment, and particularly in education, because that's one of our two priorities. I wonder if I could start with with you, Cathryn.

Thank you. In education, we've got a hearing resource centre. We employ, as part of our additional learning needs team, a level 3 and a level 7 BSL signer to support children and adults. They teach children, and they also teach parents as well, and family members.

So, they're teaching children sign language, and teaching their parents sign language at the same time. 

Yes, that's right.

And is that in a mainstream school or a dedicated special school?

We've got a dedicated hearing resource centre, but we've got a peripatetic teacher as well.

Very good. To Swansea Council, Lee, are you aware of how you manage the needs of deaf children who use sign language?

We have a dedicated deaf education team, and they support deaf learners and families. They provide advice to all of our schools. Some of our schools are implementing the BSL Curriculum for Wales guidance as well. That's the main provision throughout schools. We employ dedicated staff within social services as well. They would support, obviously, families with young children who would be attending our schools as well.

Ash Lister, you'll be aware that, across Wales, deaf children don't normally meet the milestones they're expected to meet according to their chronological age. I just wondered how you manage to tackle that. What are the barriers to tackling that?

I think, as colleagues have already mentioned, most local authorities have got those hearing impaired resource bases, but it's the capacity within those, and it's at what point the support actually allows them either to return to a mainstream education, or if they do need to continue in that specialist base. In terms of capacity, just from a Cardiff perspective, we do have issues where we have waiting lists, I believe, for children who are hearing impaired in accessing that specialist provision, but we do have the peripatetic teams going out and supporting our mainstream providers, but also the families, to develop their skills as much as possible. So, I'd probably point back to it being a capacity issue in terms of making sure that we've got the appropriate levels of support so that they do achieve those milestones.

Okay. And is that because of the shortage of interpreters, which we'll come on to later, or are there other issues?

I think school funding around additional learning needs is a real challenge for all local authorities. So, that is definitely a key factor in that. What we've seen, just on the local level, is we've had learners go through our hearing impaired resource base that have actually then gone on to become members of staff in that field. We see the progression, but it's about having the resource and the capacity to be able to fund those, as members of staff, to develop the workforce as much as we can.

Okay. Thank you. I wondered if you could tell us what involvement, if any, you or your organisations have had in the development of this Bill. Sarah Capstick, do you want to go first, because you did mention that you had been involved in this. 

Yes, I'm happy to. 

One second—Cathryn, did you want to comment on something from the previous question? 

Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt, Sarah. I just wanted to mention that I was speaking with a member of the social care team who has been working with a young woman who wanted to follow a hairdressing course in further education, and she had to go out of Ceredigion and attend a college in England because we weren't able to provide for her needs here in Ceredigion—just to add to your evidence of what we have and haven't got. 

Thank you for that. Sarah, your involvement in the Bill to date, presumably on behalf of the WLGA.

Yes, absolutely on behalf of the WLGA. The WLGA provided an initial consultation response to the development consultation back in January, and then we've also provided written evidence to this committee. In addition, I and another one of my colleagues met with some of the officials who were preparing the explanatory memorandum to go alongside specifically in regard to what might be involved in the engagement processes for the development of a delivery plan, some of which has been represented in the regulatory impact assessment in things like allowing regional engagement events to take place, but other elements we said we couldn't actually provide, which were things like what grades the staff involved would need to be at that stage. So, we have had some involvement, but we haven't actually been involved in drafting the Bill itself, just in providing additional information afterwards.

Okay. Before I come to Ash Lister, who I know will have had some involvement because of his charity work, Cathryn or Lee, have you had any involvement in the development of this Bill? If you haven't—

Me, no. 

It's fine. Ash, have you been invited to comment on the shape of the Bill?

Not to my knowledge—I don't believe the trustees have. So, the foundation itself is to support children and young people who are hearing impaired with resources to access education. The charity meets only twice a year. It's very, very functional in its business. We try not to get involved in the policy areas, so I don't believe we have had any involvement with Mark in shaping the Bill.

Fine. Okay. Thank you for that. Obviously, there's a reasonable spectrum of views on this Bill. Apart from the evidence from the WLGA, we've had separately seven local authorities providing written evidence. Monmouthshire was the only one who thought that these issues could be dealt with under the Equality Act 2010, whereas Caerphilly was very precise in saying that, although the Equality Act provides that legal framework, it lacks the specificity and clarity needed to ensure equitable access for BSL users, which I thought was a useful pinpointing of the issue. So, I'll stick with you at the moment, Ash. Do you want to tell us whether you think that the Bill and its provisions are going to do the job they're setting out to do?

I think the WLGA definitely feels that the Bill will achieve what it needs to. I think there have been questions as to whether or not we need to legislate in order to achieve what the Bill is setting out. So, as already mentioned, there are strategic equality plans and other statutory reporting that already takes place within local government, where we do feel that quite a lot of the monitoring and progress could be carried out. I think the one thing that the Bill does introduce is the national adviser, which we very much welcome as a role, but I believe it's a question of how much of this could be delivered without the legislation, using what is currently legislated for—the provisions within the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 on statutory reporting of equality—and just seeing how much we could deliver without the legislation going forward. 

One of the things it wouldn't do would be to establish BSL as a language in its own right, and I think that that is certainly one of the primary drivers of the mover of the Bill. Does anybody else want to comment on this specific point before I pass on to the next subject area? I'll take Lee first.

Thank you, Chair. We engaged with the consultation process from the Senedd, and we were supportive of the Bill in principle because we thought, as you say, it would give BSL that status—put it on an equal footing as a language and maybe embed a rights-based approach. At the same time, we felt there was a need for parity of access and that things like the cultural recognition of BSL would need to come through, and also about a practical framework for implementation. So, we probably welcomed the introduction of the Bill with some caveats, which we might come on to later, around some of the barriers and what we feel we would need in order to be able to implement it.

Okay. Thank you. Cathryn Morgan.

Yes, I do agree that the rights of deaf BSL signers should be covered by the Equality Act, but it's obvious that they're not, really. I've learned a huge amount since I've been asked to come and give evidence, which I should have known already, and I think, when we talk about the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014, which is a very good Act, the focus is on person-centred care, and that creates a sort of ad hoc response, in a way. Because it is person centred, so people are asking what do we provide, how do we ensure that deaf BSL signers use our services and can access our services, even using leisure centres and visiting our museums. That wouldn't particularly be covered by the social services and well-being Act, and yet they don't really have full access to all our services, and it's provided on an ad hoc basis, and, a bit like the active offer that the Welsh language enjoys, people shouldn't really have to ask—we should be very aware and knowing that there's a need, and people shouldn't need to ask for it.

Thank you for that reflection. I'd like to call Julie Morgan at this point.

Prynhawn da. I was going to ask you about some of the duties that are placed on you, and first of all to ask you all, really, about how confident are you that you'll be able to implement what's set out in the Bill, and how much time do you anticipate needing before you reach full compliance. Do you want to give an overall view, Ash, to start off with?

Yes. Thank you. So, the local government family do believe that we will be able to deliver on the requirements within the 12 months, but we would ask that the guidance accompanying the national strategy is issued as soon as possible. In our written evidence, we did ask that that happens within a month, the strategy, for the reason of ensuring that local authorities have got the time to develop and resource their services.

One of our concerns is making sure that we've got the adequate levels of resource within local government to deliver on the requirements. There isn't currently additional resource and capacity within local authorities, so, without the additional funding and development of the workforce, we would probably see some challenges.

Right. But you do see yourself being able to deliver in 12 months then, overall. 

Overall.

Thanks very much. What about Ceredigion, then? Cathryn.

I mean, yes, we can develop a plan in consultation with the BSL community. We can develop a plan within the timescale. It's the quality of that plan and our ability to deliver that plan that's going to be key for people who use BSL, I think. As Ash said, we don't really have—. We will need resources to be able to deliver a good plan and make a difference for people.

I've been really drawn to—when I was looking into this and talking to people before this session—really drawn to looking at the way we support the Welsh language, particularly here in Ceredigion. We've got a full-time Welsh language officer here in Ceredigion, and her job is working, on a corporate basis, to make sure that everybody's aware of the Welsh language and the importance of it, and she brings the legislation and the reminders of the Welsh language standards to people, but also encourages people to use Welsh, small amounts of Welsh, in their everyday life, and responds directly to the Welsh language commissioner, and delivers workshops and training and develops resources. You know, the amount of work that she does is huge and, as a result, I feel we've got a pretty good Welsh language provision and response to people who want to use the Welsh language when they access our services. If we want to have parity for BSL signers, we're going to need that kind of resource, really. I don't know about all the other local authorities, but I do feel we've got a lot of work to do in Ceredigion.

Thank you. What about Swansea? What do you think, Lee?

I think we're broadly in line with the views already expressed by Ceredigion. I think the timescale is slightly ambitious. We'd want to get the engagement done effectively and properly with key stakeholders, and that will take some time. I think that the issue of resourcing this properly and having staff and also funding that we can call upon is a challenge, and that may well affect the timescales as well because, as colleagues have already said, without those in place, it could cause us some difficulties and some delays. So, we're confident that, with the right resourcing, we could implement it in time; without that, then I think that our confidence isn't so high.

Thank you very much. We've already had a bit of a discussion about—

Julie, Sarah would like to come in. 

Sarah. Right. Sorry, Sarah.

Thank you. Just to add, I think that one of the barriers will be around, if there are any delays in translation, actually translating the delivery plans and the amount of need that there will be for translators, potentially, in a short period of time, which is one of the reasons why we've asked for the guidance to be out quite quickly after the national strategy, to try to make it so that we can actually manage that and not end up with a bottleneck, because I think if we end up with a bottleneck then actually I think all the public bodies could potentially struggle to meet the current timelines.

Yes. Thank you very much. We've already had some discussion about the Equality Act and the fact that there is going to be probably some sort of alignment with the Equality Act. I wondered if you could say some more about using existing reporting mechanisms for equalities to report on progress. How feasible do you think that is? Cathryn, did you want to speak? 

Yes, I can come in on that question, of course, but I wanted to add a point to Sarah's previous point about the need for interpretation. It's the translation of the plans, but also, if we're all going to be engaging with our local BSL community at the same time in order to develop the plan, that's going to be a huge draw at the same time. I don't know if there's any way of timetabling in engagement so that we share BSL translators out equally. So, I just wanted to make that point on the previous question.

Thank you. Do you want to go on? Yes, it's fine.

Yes, in terms of using the Equality Act, it should be happening as part of the current legislation, the Equality Act. What we find when we're developing our equality plan is that there are so many areas that we're keen to do things about and the different council teams say, ‘We're going to focus on this; we're going to focus on this’, the plan becomes quite large and disjointed. The last plan that we developed, 2024 to 2028, because there was a big focus on the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ that Welsh Government had produced, we were trying to align it to that and support Welsh Government in the delivery of the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’, but still there were other actions within the plan that were separate to anti-racist Wales. It's a plan within a plan. So, we could include an action in our strategic equality plan to say that we will develop a plan that describes how we will progress and improve services for the deaf community, but that would be a plan within a plan. So, that's one way of doing it, I guess.

Right. What about Lee? Have you had any thoughts about this?

Yes. So, I think that our initial thoughts were that we would incorporate it, or we would like to incorporate it, as part of our annual equalities reporting process and timescales. We'd look to the guidance so that we got clarity about what we would need to be reporting on, but that would certainly be our preferred route, because we think that it sits better within that overall equalities reporting structure and it saves on time and resources as well. 

Right. Thank you. And what about Sarah or Councillor Ash?

I'm happy to speak. I think the way it's currently set out for the reporting is that progress would only be reported after 12 months, and we're concerned that that would then lead to a lot of ad hoc requests coming in from either Welsh Government or from the adviser, because they wouldn't have up-to-date information, so, by tying it into the existing equality reporting, it would bring it into the council scrutiny processes, but also make sure that there were regular annual updates that could be accessed by both the adviser and Welsh Government and would be publicly available.

Julie, can I come in? 

Yes.

I think the key issue here is there are lots of good reasons for bringing this into the general equalities reporting, but how would you ensure that BSL didn't get lost amidst all these other plans? As has already been described by Cathryn, the focus has been on different things, not on BSL.

Yes. And I think Cathryn's point about plans within plans is a really important one when it comes to local government. We're trying to deliver on the ambitions of Welsh Government and also our local communities, so trying to tie both those in amongst the frameworks that currently exist is a real challenge.

I think, to pick up on some of Sarah's points about that it would feed into local government current reporting, you'd have elected members having that oversight as well, so, if you were to develop a champion's role within each of the local authorities, just to make sure there is still that person, and then it doesn't just get tied to whether or not it's in the strategic equalities plan, but, as you've already mentioned, are we discussing it when we're talking about education, when we're talking to unpaid carers and their role in interpreting for family members who may be deaf or hard of hearing. So, I think there are lots of different ways. It's always a challenge; I think it's just something we need to be honest about. But I think, in terms of the current mechanisms that are there, if you have those champions, people to raise the profile as much as possible—which is obviously the aim of the Bill—then I think that could be achieved.

Thank you. And then lastly from me, the Member in charge of the Bill has said that local authorities may choose to work individually or with regional partners to produce a local BSL plan. So, do you believe that there would be benefits in working together regionally, or is there anything that might prevent that?

Cathryn had her hand up a moment ago, so do you want to go to her first?

Cathryn?

Thank you. Sorry, I seem to be coming in slightly late on questions. And it is linked, actually, Julie, to this question. I've been reading other BSL plans that have been developed in Scotland and England, and one of them included other public sector partners in their plan, so they said, 'The fire and rescue service will do this, the police will do this, the local authority will do this, the further education college will do this.' So that's another potential of looking for timescales of plans of linking in with public services boards work, which brings me on a bit, I guess, to this question about the potential of working with regional colleagues, because some PSBs are regional anyway, so we've got that link, we've got that relationship.

So, I think there are lots of things we could do regionally, like—. We haven't got a BSL video explaining our safeguarding processes on our website; that's something we could certainly do on a regional basis, because we've got a regional safeguarding board. And there are other things we could do—maybe joint training together, maybe engaging with people. When I was looking up the number of people who used BSL in Ceredigion, from the census of 2021, it was 16 people. I don't think that's correct, but if we're going to have—. Some of the other plans I looked at, they had a biannual get-together with policymakers, service providers and the BSL signing community to help develop the plan, and also to help monitoring it, so that would be useful on a regional basis, perhaps—as long as you have funding to cover people's transport costs, of course. And we'd need Welsh to BSL and English to BSL translators like that. But I can see lots of potential for working regionally on elements, but also maybe working with other local public sector partners too.

Thank you. Swansea—Lee? 

Thank you. Yes, we're supportive of regional working and we think there'd be a number of benefits. One would be around things like sharing interpreter capacity and expertise, which, clearly, would be an issue with all 22 councils going after a very small pool of people, that we would be able to have some consistent commissioning standards, that we might have improved data comparisons by being able to work across regions, and also we'd hope to consult on some aspects regionally, although we'd be really keen not to lose that local voice within the region. So, we'd need to think about that, but we think there are a large number of benefits to working regionally at the moment.

Right. Ash, anything to add to this?

Just to re-emphasise the point that there are currently those bodies that exist, those partnerships that exist. I'm the deputy chair of the Cardiff and Vale regional partnership board, and I know that there's more work we could do there around BSL. I think, again, it just strikes back to the issue around capacity and making sure that if all public bodies are doing this work to develop their plans, and making sure that we've got the actual engagement with our signing and deaf communities, then there needs to be the appropriate resource. As Cathryn alluded to, it's not as simple as having someone who can sign and interpret from English into BSL. It is also the Welsh language being a key factor in this, and focusing on some of our more rural communities, how they access those regional partnership events as well.

Thank you. I don't know whether Sarah had anything final to say on this.

I have nothing further to add to Ash's points.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

We're now going to take a two-minute break to enable the signer to swap over.

Mick. Can we unmute Mick Antoniw?

Am I unmuted? I just wanted to ask another couple of questions about the BSL strategy and guidance. You've already commented to some extent on that, so it's really directed to whoever feels it's most appropriate, probably WLGA, just more generally. The strategy will require the development of some sort of common strategy across various public bodies, and that in itself is undoubtedly going to be challenging. I wonder what your thoughts or maybe your concerns are about how it will be feasible to develop that common strategy across all those public bodies. What are the challenges to actually being able to achieve this? As local government, you work regularly with a variety of public bodies to achieve that. So, probably over to you Cathryn.

Sorry, I'm not WLGA. I've just noticed that the signer was pinned to the speaker, but is now quite small at the top, so a BSL signer maybe wouldn't be able to see them if they were following this session.

We can certainly see them as—. Go ahead. Did you want to answer Mick's question?

No, I'll leave it to Sarah, thank you.

Okay. Sarah.

Sorry, Mick. Can you just repeat part of the question?

Yes. It's really just with regard to the strategy and guidance. Obviously the duty is going to apply across various public bodies, but having some sort of consistency and engagement, how are you actually going to achieve that? What concerns do you have about being able to achieve that? You traditionally work in a variety of areas across public bodies, but this is something that does require a certain degree of consistency, doesn't it? So, I'm just wondering what, maybe, your concerns are about how that would be achieved.

Yes, thank you for repeating. Yes, I think some of the concerns are around making sure that there's equal access, so that if we've got engagement events in the south of Wales where we've got quite a few translators who might be able to attend, but then in the north or mid Wales where we might have a shortage, making sure that there's some parity across the whole of Wales, so that everybody has the opportunity of either in person or online as options.

I think that there's something around having a national strategy, but then needing to be able to identify what's happening locally, as there might be very local issues that need to be addressed that might get swallowed up in a full national. We've seen that in a few other programmes where, because we're focusing on just the big picture, we might miss actually what's important to those individuals on the ground. But I think it comes back to how good the guidance is, as to can we make sure that it's consistent and whether the funding and resourcing is behind it, because I think if there isn't, then that's where the biggest risks normally come from, because if there isn't the funding to do it and we're asking each local authority to find funding, or each health board, then that's where you're unlikely to get equality across.

Sarah, you've actually started talking about the guidance, which is one of the areas I wanted to go into, but it naturally leads into that, and you also started going into the issue that was mentioned a bit earlier, and that is of resources. Could you perhaps tell us what you think the challenge is in resources, because it's obviously something that we're going to be looking at with regard to the demands that this legislation is going to create, and how we can actually achieve that? So, again, I suppose, more your concerns about the actual delivery of that consistency then. Are we up for it? Is there a significant resource issue, a significant skills issue as well, I suppose?

I think all of the above. I think there are the sufficiency issues around translators and the accessibility of them. So, if there are only 54 translators for the whole of Wales, then that poses potential issues if all 22 local authorities, plus the seven health boards, plus all the other public bodies need to access that same resource at the same time, and at the same time that they still need to be delivering the translation services for other things, because everything else shouldn't be stopping just because we've got a new strategy and we're developing plans.

There's currently no funding being identified for this, so does that then need to be found within other budgets? We know that all the council budgets are tight. We've recently done our finance reporting and gathering of that information, and we know that things are not getting any easier for council budgets. So, I think all of those things come into play, and then obviously we've got different skills in different public bodies as well, which might add to the challenge of there might be some areas where we need to train more people up to be able to deliver. They might be used to doing engagement, but not necessarily with the BSL translation.

Thank you for that very comprehensive answer. I'm going to ask a little bit in a minute about the role of Welsh Government within this and Welsh Ministers, but I'm just wondering, from Swansea and Ceredigion, Lee and Cathryn, whether you're more or less in agreement with what Sarah's just said, or whether you wanted to add anything to it. Yes, Lee.

Yes, certainly in agreement. But also, I think, for us particular issues would be lack of funding at the moment to train existing staff. And I know that our social services department also have problems recruiting staff, because there aren't many people out there to actually apply for jobs, so two key issues for us. 

Okay. Thank you. And Cathryn. 

Thank you. I was trying to do some number crunching on actual costs, and I noticed that Shropshire Council have just put a three-year contract out to tender to deliver interpretation and translation services across their county. They were offering £14,500 per annum for that contract, and that was based on 187 interactions, but then, as Sarah said, it's reliant on having translators available.

But it's more than just interpretation and translation, really. We need to have information online, videos online on our website, and there's a huge amount of work to do there. I know there are some developments within AI to do this, but I don't think it's completely there at the moment. And really, we're talking about access to services, like I said before: libraries, and leisure centres and museums.

So, at the moment, we've got a BSL course—it's level 1 and it's for three terms—that's been advertised to staff. It's £150 per person and an extra £126 for the exam, and that's just level 1. To compare, again, with the Welsh language, for this course you've either got to find the money yourself or ask if there's money within your team's budget to cover it, and also it's in the evening, so you're not really doing it within work time. Whereas with doing Welsh language classes, particularly if we're saying you need to be proficient in Welsh within two years of taking up the post, which is linked to some of our jobs, people can then access free Welsh classes within work time. So, there's a real disparity there. 

In terms of the cost for learning BSL to a standard where you could actually communicate, which is more than level 1, I was talking to someone who said the police have put a few officers on a training course, and it costs £600 to £700 for one person to get to level 3, and they're just really only halfway there. So, it depends, really, if we're looking at interpreting and translation or actually people knowing about BSL and being able to use it in the community with BSL signers. 

I think it's probably a mixture of those, isn't it, and this, of course, is going to be dependent on the guidance. But what you're highlighting there—I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth—is that you have a real concern that the ability to deliver some of the requirements is going to be extremely difficult within the current resource situation. Is that a fair comment? 

From the people I've spoken to, the will is there, but there are serious concerns about the ability to deliver.

Okay. Well, thank you for that. Sorry, Chair.

Mick. Councillor Lister wants to come in. Could I just ask if there's a standard that you currently adhere to in relation to the Equality Act? I don't mean you, personally; I mean the WLGA.

There certainly should, under the Equality Act, be that standard set for all local authorities and all public bodies to make sure they're meeting that requirement. I think, once public services identify that there is a need, then we do our best through the Wales Interpretation and Translation Service or local resource to make sure that we're meeting the needs of those individuals so that they can access public services. Just to reiterate colleagues' points about that level of resource, particularly a lot of it is focused in the south-east corner of Wales, with just 54 translators and interpreters, so it does put a huge pressure on. And, as Cathryn alluded to, there's that level of disparity as well. Sixteen communicators through BSL identified in that county through the census doesn't necessarily sit that comfortably, and it's something I would probably question as well, 'Is that accurate?'

I was just going to go back to Mick's earlier point around the willingness to work on a regional partnership level. I think there has to be a question and probably direction from Welsh Government on what that would look like. You've got several different footprints across Wales: you've got 22 local authorities, seven health boards plus the additional NHS trusts, three fire authorities, four police authorities, and you've got regional partnership boards, public services boards, et cetera, cetera. So, at what point would you give direction that that was the correct footprint that those public bodies should work under to develop a plan? And it's how they then ensure that they are meeting the needs of all BSL communities across that regional footprint—so, getting them to consultation events, making sure that their input is heard and valued, and then the delivery after that. I think that could pose a real challenge as well, without that relevant direction from Welsh Government.

Thank you, Ash, for that, because that takes me on to the final point I want to ask. The Bill, of course, has provision for the BSL plans to be revised. Welsh Ministers will have the ability to ask public bodies to actually revise their plans. But I think where it's taking us to is what actually do we think the role of Welsh Government should specifically be within that, because this power, if exercised, does apply a supervisory role for Welsh Ministers, and certainly a certain amount of oversight from Welsh Government. What do you think the specific role of Welsh Ministers, or the relevant Welsh Minister, should be within the delivery of this legislation?

I think it's just about ensuring that clarity of direction of how the plan should be developed, explicitly what should be done on a national level, whether that's around workforce development or setting standards, and in addition to that workforce development, actually looking at a recruitment campaign, where we've seen Welsh Government stepping in in the past, around the social care workforce, speech and language therapists, et cetera. Ensuring that there is that role being played by Welsh Government there, but otherwise, if they are going to allow the local delivery plans to be developed in partnership across a regional footprint, explicitly what is the role of those public bodies in that area to develop their plan around, and what is going to sit at a national level.

Thank you, that's very helpful. I presume there's probably broad agreement with that. I don't know if anyone else wanted to come in. If not, Chair, that brings my questions to an end.

Thank you very much. Can I now bring in Jane Dodds?

Thank you. In Swansea, we have a co-production strategy and we would be really keen to co-produce our strategy and action plan with the deaf community and representative groups such as Swansea deaf club, and also more local clubs. We'd also like to do some targeted outreach and work with people through the lived experience panels. It would be really important for us to get that feedback and to set other feedback loops on issues such as commissioning and existing services, so that we really get that information from people who are living that experience at the moment, but making sure that they can actively develop that strategy with us.

I think just to touch on that, obviously, as has already been mentioned, there are a number of different methods for engagement, and I think the important thing is just making sure that our deaf community who do engage feel that their voice is valued in everything that they share, and that lived experience really, really is key. I've met with members of the deaf community in Cardiff previously, and across other parts of south Wales in particular, and recognise that there is a real frustration that they don't always feel that their voice is valued. So, it's how we link that to local government delivery plans or public body delivery plans to make sure that they feel that value in being included.

Thank you. Yes, I think there are some good examples where the deaf community have been engaged, or BSL signers themselves, where it's been around specific services they've been accessing, whether it's specific services for the deaf community or other services that they are accessing for other reasons. I think the other thing just to be aware of is that, according to the RNID's own website, 43 per cent of BSL signers are not classed as deaf, so there's something around needing to make sure we're engaging with all BSL signers as well as the deaf community, to make sure that we're getting all those different views, because there might be different reasons for why people are signers or not. But there's also a group within the deaf community who don't use BSL, and engagement with them is going to be just as important, because actually they might be the ones who would most benefit from the outcome of this Bill. But we need to know other specific barriers for them as well, so I think it's bringing it all in together. 

I'm happy to kick things off. Diolch, Jane. I think, yes, in terms of ensuring that there are engagement requirements within the legislation, but also ensuring that there is flexibility as to what that looks like. I think there could be a real challenge for some of our minority communities, where they feel that it is just a tick-box exercise in terms of their engagement, particularly if it is legislated for. So, I think ensuring that there is still that flexibility for public bodies—local government in this instance—to do it in the way that they feel best. Cathryn and Lee have given different examples of how they would look to engage with the deaf communities, and they're just as valid as one another. There are plenty of other examples across local government, I feel, where we know we can do that public engagement in a good and positive way. So, definitely welcome that inclusion, but, I think, in quite a broad sense, so that there is still that flexibility.

Yes, thank you. I think the adviser will have a role very similar to the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence adviser, and be able to ask questions. I think it's one of the reasons for the accountability, for wanting it within the equality reporting, so that it will fit within the structures for councils for accountability, which I think Councillor Lister has already explained. And that might be different for ourselves as public bodies, rather than for some of the other public bodies listed, that, actually, that accountability will be built in. And if there is that annual reporting, the adviser and the Ministers would be able to challenge, if they saw something not happening. So, it does build in the accountability.

Thank you. If we just take your first question, and then we'll have a break.

Diolch, Sioned. I would just probably reiterate the responsibilities within local government about being a public body and having to have its own internal complaints processes that people can follow. There's then the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and any decisions can be called in for judicial review. I would probably emphasise that that is a process for everyone—so, something that local authorities, public bodies in general, should be going through—to make sure that there is a fair and consistent process for anyone, regardless of any additional needs they may have or communication barriers, to make sure that they can make those complaints—and have them resolved, being the key point there.

I'll probably let Sarah come in, because she'll have better knowledge of anywhere where that has happened, but just to emphasise that the WLGA does its best to share that best practice across the local government family. But I'll hand over to Sarah.

Thank you. I'm not aware that there is anything specific around the complaints procedure, but I know that the safeguarding business units across the whole of Wales are working together to develop one referral form for all safeguarding, and one of the things that they have got either on an agenda that's just been or one that's coming forward is actually how they could do that with BSL. So, whilst it's not complaints, it's something that has never been discussed before.

Diolch.

Okay. We'll take a short break now just to change over the interpreters. 

Sioned Williams, back to you.

I'm happy to again. Diolch, Sioned. We definitely understand the role of the adviser and, as we've previously mentioned, it's similar to other Government advisers and commissioners who have that responsibility to hold public bodies and Welsh Government to account to deliver on this. I think, just to pick up on one of Sarah's earlier points about concerns around ad hoc requests for data, without having to get that real consistent and manufactured reporting mechanism in place, there are just concerns that it could become a little overwhelming for different public bodies, local government in this instance, to respond to the adviser in a way that is actually constructive for the adviser and the Government as well. But I'm not sure if Sarah wants to add anything else to that.

Sarah.

Yes, happy to add to it. I think that it's really useful to know that it's going to be a very similar role to one that councils are already used to engaging with, in the VAWDASV adviser. I think that the fact that they will be able to ask questions, they will be able to provide advice, is really helpful. I think, as Ash has already highlighted, though, probably our biggest concern is that, if there isn't regular data going through, that we're going to have a lot of ad hoc requests, and, because they're ad hoc, we won't have the systems built and in place, which will then result in probably the most expensive way of finding out information, because we'd have to then reach out across possibly the whole council, depending on what the questions were.

I suppose the other thing that is missing is there's no indication as to how long a time frame there would be to respond to the adviser. Now, it might be that it would depend on the question, but if there's no guidance there is a risk that, actually, too short a deadline is given, and therefore either incomplete information or a public body would have to say, 'Actually, we're just not going to be able to meet that requirement.'

If I kick off again—

Yes, Sarah. Oh, sorry.

No, go on, Sarah.

Sarah, yes.

Thank you. I think there is something around the way that the adviser will be able to ask questions of public bodies, which should mean that the public bodies would then need to investigate, and then you'd be able to use the complaints processes if things were not coming back as they should be. So, it's already kind of built into some of the scrutiny. I suppose it's that issue of, as an adviser, it's one person, and their capacity to be able to investigate, and also that it might be something where they've got a lot of specialism or it might be something that they hardly know anything about. So, I think allowing it to have that question asked—it could even be asked through the ombudsman system, to actually enable that to be followed up, rather than it be something that they'd be expected to do, because it might be that then they'd be overloaded with investigations and not actually be able to follow through on making sure that the plans are being delivered.

Diolch. Ash, would you like to come in?

Yes. I think Sarah's covered a lot of what I was going to mention, but I think in terms of being able to hold the public bodies to account, to ensure that they are delivering on the requirements, local authorities have got their scrutiny functions, fire and rescues have got the authorities, public services boards et cetera. So, I think the relevant processes exist to make sure that any complaints and concerns can be investigated. I think the role of the adviser is to highlight them to those relevant authorities, and then advise the Government on how we avoid them in the future and actually make things better, rather than the ability to hold those kinds of inquiries—at this point in time, at least.

Diolch yn fawr. 

Cathryn, briefly.

Briefly, yes.

Thank you. Could I now call Altaf Hussain to ask your questions?

Thank you very much, Chair. My area of questioning is about the barriers to implementation, and how much resource do you think will be required to cover the cost of developing and reporting on local BSL plans. Yes, Cathryn. Can you hear, yes?

I'm happy to speak to—. To be honest, it depends if you want it done well, or badly, I think. I spoke earlier about the Welsh language officer, who is full time with us and develops the plan and ensures compliance and ensures people are aware, and doesn't do it with a stick, but provides carrots to learn the Welsh language. So, if we've got a full-time BSL officer to work with BSL signers in Ceredigion to develop a really good plan that is aspirational and will make a difference, then a full-time officer plus, really, the cost of enough interpretation and translation services—I mentioned Shropshire had put a contract out with £14,500 per annum to make sure they had an interpreter and translator present at meetings and could also translate policies and strategies—and training for front-line staff, awareness raising for senior management at least, and training for front-line staff at £600 or £700 for a level 3 course, which is halfway there, for a lot of staff as well, so we don't have just one member of staff who can speak for the whole council at things—it's a lot of resource, I think. 

Lee, how about you, Swansea?

Very similar to Cathryn. I think it's hard to say at the moment exactly what resource would be needed, but the areas covered by Cathryn—certainly a full-time officer, and then having a budget available in order to be able to commission services—would be the bare minimum. From there, it's hard to say what else we would need until we see the guidance, but I would certainly advocate a full-time officer when we look at our council, in the same way that Cathryn does with the Welsh language. It is resource intensive. It's obviously very worthwhile, but we do need a certain amount of resource. So, yes, I would agree with Cathryn fully.

Sarah, do you want to share any thoughts?

Yes, thank you. I think it'll depend, to some extent, on the requirements in terms of what's needed, which I think both Lee and Cathryn raised. In regards to the RIA itself, it includes certain costs around an expectation of the length of the document. Given we don't know the length of the strategy and we don't know what the guidance is going to say we need to include, it's very difficult to know if 2,000 words are realistic or not. Also, it will depend on if public bodies have to do their own plan or if we can actually do regional ones as well as regional engagement, or if each local public body needs to do their own individually. It'll depend on what resources are needed and at what grade, and that might be different across all the different public bodies, depending on where they would see this role sitting.

There are specific questions that the WLGA has raised about the finance elements, and I think the fact that we are misquoted from our first consultation response in the explanatory memorandum where it says that we came up with a figure—that was never our figure; we were actually questioning it in the first consultation—adds to that kind of 'We don't have a huge amount of confidence.' We already know the national joint council figures are out of date that are quoted, because the 2025-26 rates have already been announced, and it makes reference to the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action pay and grading document, which doesn't apply in Wales. So, there's a lot in there that leads us to have concern that maybe the costings are a little bit low, and it doesn't build in any part of the delivery, which is a lot of what Lee and Cathryn were talking about. Once we know what we need to do, is it that we need that that post, like many organisations will have that lead person for the Welsh language? But none of those costings are included. So, I suppose at the moment there is concern that it could cost a lot more and also, with the sufficiency issues, costs could suddenly go up.

Thank you. Coming to my last question, Chair, the RIA does not estimate the cost of measures that listed public bodies may decide to undertake as part of local BSL plans. To what extent will those costs be covered by existing budgets? And, do you think any additional funding will be required? If so, why? Yes, Cath, you can carry on now.

I'll come in. We've been facing real-time budget cuts year on year and the pressures and the amount of services we deliver are either staying the same or are increasing. So, every time a new Bill or legislation or guidance comes in, obviously it puts more pressure on us—not that I'm saying this isn't needed. So, yes, it's going to be very difficult. We won't be able to really develop and deliver a good plan within existing resources and that's evidenced, really, by what we're doing at the moment because we should be doing more because the rights of BSL signers or deaf people are protected by the equality Act, and what we're doing is responding on an ad hoc basis, which is person centred, one could say, but not mainstream. So, we could do more if we had more resources, definitely.

Sarah, do you want—?

Yes. I think any activities will need to be fully funded from additional funding, because we'll still need to provide the ad hoc individual things that are person centred that we already do. So, I know that the original consultation that ended back in January said there would be some cost savings. We've always asked what those cost savings are because we can't see them. So, we know that it's investment rather than cost for BSL signers and wanting to do better. But, actually, if we haven't got that funding, councils have to balance our budgets. So, it will just add to the pressures that councils are already managing and so it needs to be built in. Otherwise, it almost becomes that tick-box exercise that we all don't want it to be; we want there to be real change for BSL signers.

Thank you very much. Any other thoughts? Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your contributions today. We'll send you all a transcript of your contributions. Cathryn, you'd like to add something, is that right?

I would. I'm very sorry.

That's all right. Go ahead.

Am I allowed to make a cheeky request? Although I haven't—

Can you make it briefly, whatever it is?

Yes, I will. The Bill uses the term 'Iaith Arwyddion Prydain' on the description of it. In Ceredigion, we tend to use 'Arwyddiaith Brydeinig' and I'm just wondering if you could look into using the term 'arwyddiaith', because it's a slightly nicer, gentler term for 'British Sign Language'.

Thank you very much for that. We'll take that into account when we're writing our report to the Member who's taking forward this Bill.

So, we're going to send you a transcript. Please do correct it if we've, in some way, not recorded your contributions accurately. Otherwise, we thank you very much for your participation.

We have three papers to note. Are Members content for us to note them? We are going to now take a break until the ministerial discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice on the BSL Bill, which is at 5 o'clock—[Interruption.]—4 o'clock, I beg your pardon. It's 4 o'clock, sorry. Just to say that we won't be able to provide BSL interpretation live; we just haven't been able to get people, which I suppose underlines all the conversations we've just been having about the need to get more interpreters. But we will, obviously, be providing BSL interpretation by Friday at the latest for those who wish to hear what the Cabinet Secretary has said.

So, we'll now move into private session until just before 4 o'clock.

I'm very pleased to welcome the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for this final session on British Sign Language. One of our members has had to send his apologies—Mick Antoniw—but the rest of us are here. We have interpretation from Welsh to English, but we're going to need to add the signing in BSL afterwards and so we'll have it ready by Friday. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary for coming in. We know that you are very engaged with this legislation, from all your Plenary statements on this important matter. I wonder if you could just outline to us what engagement you've had with the Member in charge regarding the provisions in the Bill and its drafting.

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. As you know, the Welsh Government welcomes and supports Mark Isherwood's Bill, the BSL (Wales) Bill, which would place duties on Welsh Ministers and listed public bodies in relation to promoting and facilitating use of BSL. So, on that basis, leading up to the Bill, I've had a lot of engagement with Mark Isherwood. It's his Bill, it's a Member Bill, not a Welsh Government Bill, but, very early on, I asked him to come and meet with me to see if we could work through discussions, collaborations, to agree proposals, so that we could support the Bill as a Welsh Government, so that we could support the legislative goals and offer not just Welsh Government support for the Bill, but actually support in developing the Bill and drafting the Bill. I think it was important that we actually provided help and resource to draft the Bill and explanatory notes as a result of our discussions. This included not just me, but the Counsel General, who also engaged with us in our meetings. We met on several occasions and we were able to find common ground as a result of that. So, that's how we've come to this point today, where we've got this. It's a very good example of actually helping a Member's Bill to move forward with Government support.

Sioned Williams.

Well, there has been a lot of discussion. There have been previous draft Bills. The work that we've done, which is very important, is the BSL language stakeholder group, and, of course, we've got Amira and Jane, who have been very involved in that. Yes, the Welsh Government did question whether we needed a Bill, whether we needed it to be on the statute book or whether, through policy development, we could achieve the same goals and objectives. But we had a lot of cross-party support, including within our own group, when Mark had the opportunity to introduce this Bill. So, I just said, as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, 'I now want to look at whether we should put this into legislation.' That's really what got us going with supporting Mark's Bill.

But we've done an awful lot as a result of this stakeholder group, which actually is paving the way, and it's been alongside development of the Bill. So, I think the policy work that we've done over the years, and recognising BSL anyway as a Government, which we did, has all been really important. And, indeed, alongside this, we've had the development of our disabled people's rights plan, which we're publishing shortly as well. So, it hasn't meant we haven't done anything. We've perhaps moved in the policy direction, but we were convinced—I was convinced, and then the Government—that we could strengthen the work that we did by supporting this Bill.

The recommendations from the stakeholder group are extremely useful, and I'm sure we'll refer to them when we're asking questions specifically about it. Finally from me, I just wanted to ask about the Member in charge describing this Bill as a framework Bill, in that it doesn't prescribe specific actions that Welsh Ministers and listed public bodies must take to promote and facilitate the use of BSL. Why do you believe that this is an appropriate approach for this legislation, because some people may think that it's a bit too vague and there's a lack of clarity as to how, if anything, it is going to make a difference?

Well, that is an important point. I mean, there's a legislative point here about what is a framework Bill. It usually refers to a Bill that relies on secondary legislation to fill in the detail. Well, that is not the case with the Bill. It is true to say that, as the Member has said, what the Bill is doing is putting in place a planning and reporting framework for promoting and facilitating BSL. As you know, that is going to be through the development of a national BSL strategy and BSL plans to be produced by a public body. So, strictly speaking, it is not legislatively a framework Bill, but it actually institutes a planning and reporting framework.

Obviously, a future incoming Government will have the responsibility to develop the detail of the national strategy and BSL guidance, and at the time, developing that strategy, working very closely with the BSL adviser and the assisting panel, informed by public consultation. But I think, throughout all our discussions—and you will recognise and understand this—the emphasis is on co-production, stakeholder engagement and the lived experience of deaf BSL signers helping to deliver a meaningful and proportionate approach. I think that's why you've got to give the Bill the chance to underpin, in statute, that delivery of a national strategy and the plans for the other public bodies. It is very similar to the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015 in that respect. It is also similar to our Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. The Welsh bodies, the public bodies that we have listed, have got to understand the specific needs and determine the contents of their own BSL plans. Many of them will already have existing services and, hopefully, plans. We will also have the BSL guidance, which a future incoming Government will have the responsibility for developing.

Thank you. We'll now move on to looking at the duties it placed on Welsh Ministers. Julie Morgan.

Prynhawn da. You've already referred to the national BSL strategy. What do you envisage this strategy will contain? 

I don't think you've met—. You're going to be meeting with Mark to discuss his thoughts on what a national BSL strategy would contain. I think this does go back to us paving the way with the BSL stakeholder task and finish group. The Chair has already mentioned the fact that they've published their stakeholder group recommendations, and I'm sure you've seen this with short and long-term recommendations. So, in a way, we have got a route-map, a pathway to a national strategy.

We would expect that a new Government—hopefully, through scrutiny and accountability—would be following what these recommendations are in terms of developing their strategy. The national strategy will describe how Welsh Ministers will promote and facilitate BSL in Wales.

Thank you. What about measurable actions in the strategy?

I think that is a very important point—the national BSL strategy should include measurable, time-bound actions to deliver meaningful change. It's the approach we have taken in terms of developing the stakeholder group. I think I would say, Amira and Jane, there are great expectations from the stakeholder group that they should be measurable and time-bound actions. Of course, we have developed this route-map as a result of the stakeholder group. It's very clear that it's back to the framework for planning. The national strategy has got to be very clear about those expectations. But, I mean, this is about the steps the national strategy will lay out for Wales to become a Wales that respects, promotes and facilitates BSL. Short-term actions have to be completed within 18 months, and they then lay the groundwork for the Bill, but it's about a lasting and longer term change and greater inclusion for deaf BSL signers.

Jane Dodds was keen to ask a question, before I come back to Julie Morgan.

Well, I think the BSL stakeholder task and finish group, as you know, and I have already drawn attention to it, have actually said we've got to look at both short and long-term actions to look at, for example, increasing BSL provision in the educational workforce, mapping BSL provision across public services. I think we must leave it up to them to guide and to point the way towards how you can have—. I mean, 'measurable' often does mean it's pretty target based, doesn't it? Measurable and time-bound actions deliver meaningful change, and I think that's the way that the task and finish group have said that they want things to develop.

If you look at the short-term actions, which I think are really important—BSL data collection—we've still got a long way to go to make sure we've got appropriate data collection models. There's a lack of representative BSL data. Defining BSL within the education sector, mapping BSL within the education workforce—I know these issues came up within your evidence gathering. Mapping early years BSL provision—I mean, this should all lead to having—. It is the outcomes, isn't it? It's the meaningful improvements, as you've said, for deaf people that we need to gain out of this. So, I think we must take guidance from the BSL stakeholders on this.

Julie. 

You mentioned the fact that the national BSL strategy must be published within 18 months of the Bill coming into force. Of course, listed public bodies will be required to publish their BSL plans within 12 months after publication of the strategy. Do you think these are realistic timescales?

Thank you for that question. This is something that we discussed with Mark Isherwood, and I'm sure he will be reflecting on this as you engage with him. We have looked at similar legislation together, such as the BSL Scotland Act. That stated that the first national plan was to be laid before the Scottish Parliament within the period of two years from when the Act came into force, and then the first authority plan—listed authorities—to be published no more than 12 months after the Act. But I think we've really made so much progress, as a result of the BSL stakeholder group, that there is a desire to get on with this. They've done the work, they've got the recommendations. I think Mark Isherwood, actually, does recognise this in his RIA that the BSL strategy is likely to build on that work that's already been undertaken on the BSL route-map.

Actually, that stakeholder group has been incredibly successful. It was only established in January. I actually do recall, Julie, that you wrote to me about this, having a lot of extensive engagement with stakeholders, calling for some action, and the Bill was being called for as well. We were still considering whether we could support a Bill. So, it all happened together, really, didn't it? We said 'yes' to get the Bill group going, and then very quickly embraced the Bill. We do believe that this can be completed within 18 months. It's very much the groundwork, but we still need to make sure that we're engaging with the stakeholders. The BSL stakeholder group is going to continue its work. It published its recommendations on 30 September. You've seen that. It now wants to help move this forward, monitor delivery of those recommendations, raise awareness and then help with the delivery and accountability around the Bill.

Thank you. What about the guidance? Stakeholders have noted that the Welsh Government guidance will be essential to ensure effective implementation of the Bill. So, should the Bill require that the guidance be published alongside the national BSL strategy to ensure it is in place before local BSL plans are developed?

The guidance will be important and listed public bodies will be guided by the guidance. That will have to be produced by an incoming Government. In terms of what that guidance will say, it will cover ways of working to support cost-effective planning, reporting and delivery, and also look at ways in which public bodies can effectively publish their own reports as part of existing reporting cycles. A lot of the public bodies—local government being a key one—are having to report and respond to Welsh Government legislation and other statutory guidance. So, we have got to issue guidance about how they will facilitate and promote BSL in the exercise of their functions. There's no deadline in publishing the guidance, but it should be published alongside the national strategy to support those public bodies. That's the important thing about the legislation, isn't it? Everyone will know what the expectations are—stakeholders, Senedd Members and others who are elected—to scrutinise how things are going. So, yes, alongside the national strategy, the guidance will need to be provided and published. We also have to make sure that there is support for budgets. We've got a budget for next year, and that's in the RIA, but then there's following year's budget as well. All these things will have to be decided at an early stage by an incoming Government.

Yes, I think there will be further questions about the budget later on. Do you expect the Welsh Government to consult on the guidance before publishing it—the future Welsh Government?

Yes. On guidance, we always do consult, but I don't know whether to bring Jane or Amira in here. Amira.

Just to add, within the Bill, there are currently no duties for Welsh Ministers to consult on the BSL guidance. However, it obviously will be developed at the same time as the strategy, and the BSL adviser and the BSL assistant panel should be in place before that guidance, if you look at the timetable, is published.

Thank you.

Inevitably, it will influence the guidance, all that engagement.

Thank you.

Is it possible to consult on the guidance whilst the sixth Senedd is stood down and the seventh is being elected? Is it possible for consultation to start as soon as the Act is passed, just so that local authorities and other stakeholders can start thinking about what their views are on the challenges ahead?

You may want to discuss this issue with Mark. There isn't, as Amira said, a duty to consult on the guidance, but we can see that everything will be happening at once in terms of developing the guidance, developing the national strategy, and that will lead also to looking at budgets for the future, et cetera. I think it is important that the future Government does develop the guidance in line with the stakeholder group recommendations, the principles and objectives of the Bill, and, by that time as well, there will be plans under way for the appointment of a BSL adviser and an assisting panel. So, all this will come together, I think, in a complementary way.

Thank you. Can I bring in Jane Dodds now? 

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. This is something that we, again, discussed with Mark, as you will, in terms of the insights that he's gathered. It's vital that every listed public body does engage with their deaf BSL signing community. There are already models of deaf leadership, as we know. It's vital that, where possible, deaf BSL signers are leading on this work, and this is something that we would expect the public bodies to follow. There's an issue around capacity, of course, in terms of all the different bodies. I would imagine that, for example, with local authorities, the Welsh Local Government Association hopefully would take a role in working through this. And, of course, we hope that we'll have some good examples of best practice, which they will learn from each other.

That's where the partnership working is really helpful. I would imagine that public services boards would have a role to play in this, but also locally, regionally and nationally. Local authorities, as I've mentioned, are very good at showing best practice. This is at a health board level area as well, of course, not only between health and local authority engagement, but also between health boards themselves, as another example, nationally—those with a broader remit. We do have statutory obligations on these public bodies in many different respects, so we hope that they will learn from each other. The deaf BSL signing community will be there, offering their support and advice. But capacity will vary, won't it, not just geographically, but across the listed body issues.

We've been looking recently at the third sector partnership agreement that we have and how important it is that we fund third sector infrastructure in Wales, which includes many of these bodies who've given evidence. So, there'll be a lot of cross-sharing of best practice and, I think, of capacity as well.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, that's crucially important, and that's where I think we go back to the BSL guidance and also the national BSL strategy to actually guide ways of working and ways of delivering services, and also ways in which there's not just planning, but reporting and delivery of those services to make sure that there isn't a postcode lottery. In a sense, this is the great benefit of having legislation, isn't it—that we actually will have a statutory duty where it'll be very transparent and open and accountable about how public bodies will deliver on this. It will need scrutiny, it will need accountability at local and national level, or national level if it's in terms of a more national-based public body. But I think it goes back to your point about partnership working—those co-ordinating, facilitating bodies like the WLGA, for example, will help with this. But we know that there are many other duties, like the public sector equality duty, for example, where we have to make sure—and EHRC is responsible as a regulator there—that there is consistency, and make sure that those bodies are abiding by the guidance and by the national BSL strategy.

I think it’s going to be interesting. Obviously, there's going to be a BSL adviser and also an assisting panel, so I think we'll have to look at this from a geographical perspective in terms of representation. But, obviously, the BSL adviser will be, I'm sure, very active in terms of scrutinising what's happening at a local level—scrutinising, but also helping and supporting listed bodies, just in terms of being able to help them with their role and duties. So, it'll be a very important role, I think, in terms of the national BSL adviser and the assisting panel.

Well, I think, from what I've seen, you've taken some very good evidence that could identify issues that might arise. I think we've also learnt from legislation in other parts of the UK, and we're certainly taking a step ahead in many ways—well, Mark is, with his Bill and his BSL adviser.

I think meaningful stakeholder engagement and ensuring there’s capacity for that is going to be a challenge, and that's very much reflected in the recommendations. So, I'm very keen that these short-term recommendations—that we get on with them; we're not waiting for the legislation. I've mentioned the mapping of capacity across the board in terms of good practice of BSL provision, and sharing that. Recommendation 9 is a scheme to identify professionals who use BSL in working environments, and 10 is on safeguarding for the deaf BSL signing community. These are all very much aligned with the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 as well. So, I think it's been so good that the stakeholder group has almost identified those issues that could be a challenge, and that's been reflected in your evidence. So, I think it helps. It'll help an incoming Government in terms of producing that statutory guidance, the planning and preparation of a plan, and then making sure that everything goes ahead with the appointment of a BSL adviser.

Very good. Thank you very much. We'll now move to Sioned Williams. 

This is a real opportunity, isn't it? It's a fantastic opportunity, which has been very much welcomed, that we will have this BSL adviser who should be able to communicate effectively and use BSL. We must remember that this is a language Bill, and it's important that the adviser can use the language. I think this is where we go back to our BSL stakeholder group. They've emphasised the importance of deaf leadership and lived experience for our policy development. We have certainly learned from that, haven't we, in terms of the way we've taken that group forward.

We should also be reflecting on the intersectional aspect and nature of the deaf BSL signing community. That will be important in terms of the appointment of the adviser, in terms of ethnic minority, LGBTQ+, and disabled deaf BSL signers as well. Of course, you've got the opportunity with the assisting panel to ensure you've got that kind of representation.

I think I've already responded positively that the BSL adviser should have lived experience, as well as knowledge and awareness of the challenges of the deaf BSL signing community in Wales. That will be built into the appointment process.

Perhaps I could come back to you on this legal point, just in terms of what we can and can't do. I recall way back when we were appointing disabled employment champions, and I said we've got to employ disabled employment champions. I am not saying we find ways around this, but we need to see what we can do within the legislative—. I know I will be told that by officials. Can we write to you about this? I'm sure Mark will want to be as clear as he can about it. Let's just try to move forward positively in terms of that lived experience expectation, and also communicating effectively and using BSL. But we'll look at that point about the deaf BSL signing community.

When you're appointing the Welsh Language Commissioner, does it say you must be a Welsh language speaker?

We asked this question, didn't we? Do you want to answer that, Amira?

In terms of the language itself, in the current draft of the Bill, it would be required that a BSL adviser, as Welsh Ministers assess, can effectively communicate through BSL as a language. This question is about deaf.

So, we'll come back with a legal response to that, if that's helpful.

Yes, we do. Yes, absolutely. You know that we've followed very similar lines to the national advisers for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and I think you recently had a pre-appointment process for that. So, yes, I think that's important in terms of the independence of the role and scrutiny of that appointment.

Thank you for that. I think that's something where the deaf BSL community in Wales have recognised and acknowledged—and I hope that's come before the committee—that the BSL stakeholder group is a model of good practice in terms of deaf leadership and that BSL is the primary language of all meetings. We've learnt a great deal, haven't we, in terms of myself and officials? If you actually follow the guidance of the deaf BSL signing community in Wales, then you're likely to get it right. We didn't impose anything on them. We learnt lessons in the early days. I think you've seen the terms of reference of the stakeholder group, which we published alongside the recommendations. So, future Governments should, and, obviously, hopefully will, be held to account for building on that success.

I just said earlier on to officials that—. I was saying that we must make sure this BSL stakeholder group hasn't finished its work; it's ongoing, and it should be ongoing, right through the next election, and beyond. Of course, the assisting panel that will be appointed should then follow on in terms of supporting the deaf BSL signing community. It's a vital element of the Bill. I have to say that Mark Isherwood and ourselves are completely in the same place on this, as you will understand and expect. The BSL stakeholder group, for example, is already starting to think about how the assisting panel could be recruited. That's really important, I think, that that stakeholder group has a role into the future, and maybe alongside an assisting panel, as another safeguard.

Again, I'm interested in the role that the national advisers—. I've been looking very much at the national advisers, the VAWDASV national adviser role, and the way that they have a very broad range of interests and responsibilities, but are very independent from Government in terms of monitoring what's going on, but alerting, engaging, supporting all those at the sharp end of VAWDASV, particularly recently, as you will know, developing a survivors panel, which—. It goes back to learning from the people at the sharp end of lived experience.

Obviously, this is something we discussed with Mark, and we do think the Bill has got a sufficient framework for monitoring that's built into the Bill. The listed bodies have got to prepare and publish their plans within 12 months. They've got to send the plan that they publish to Welsh Ministers, and they've got to report within 12 months of publishing any revisions of their plans. The Welsh Ministers could direct a body to review its plans, so it is very clear. And also, the Bill gives Welsh Ministers the power to require a listed body to provide information for the purposes of the Welsh Ministers' own progress reports, because, clearly, the Welsh Ministers' progress reports have got to include what listed bodies are doing and delivering. So, I think this will be also reflected in the guidance about the monitoring framework. I don't know if Jane or Amira want to comment. Do you want to comment on this in terms of monitoring, Jane? 

Yes. So, the guidance will allow flexibility for how listed bodies, listed public bodies, develop and implement their plans. They'll be responsible themselves for determining the content of their own plans, but the guidance will—. It's expected that the guidance will cover things like ways of working to support cost-effective planning, reporting and delivery, for example, through the collaborative working, which has already been discussed. It's important, I think, as well, to point out that the national strategy and guidance, which will support the listed bodies, will be developed with the BSL adviser and the assisting panel, to ensure that that experience is included in that.

I think it is important that the role of the adviser is very clear in this respect. We don't believe that the BSL adviser should investigate or intervene if listed public bodies aren't adhering to their plans. As drafted in the Bill, the BSL adviser is an adviser, not a commissioner—as you said—an ombudsman or other office with enforcement powers. So, the Bill does rely on that transparency and openness. We've talked about monitoring—a proportionate means of monitoring, of course—those duties, but the Welsh Ministers do have the powers to require a public body to review their plan if it's inadequate. Of course, there's the reporting mechanism as well, public scrutiny of how plans are being implemented. Welsh Ministers could direct listed bodies to provide information for the purposes of their own, as I've said, Welsh Ministers' progress reports.

I think a BSL adviser could request further information of the purpose of the exercise on any of the adviser's functions from listed public bodies, but the adviser shouldn't deal with individual complaints, because that would duplicate work that's already taking place by, for example, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and listed bodies have their own internal complaints procedures.

I think it's interesting that, of course, there are issues where it would be inappropriate for a listed body to get involved in this way, in terms of, for example, providing personal information or information about individual cases to the adviser. So, this is being looked at very carefully, but you could also, obviously, ask Mark about these discussions as well. So, I mean, we just don't think that should be the role. It could become like a whole separate casework kind of role, which is not appropriate for an adviser.

I suppose—. Can I just ask, though, supposing a complaint went all the way to the public services ombudsman, which in itself is rare, whose job would it be then to ensure that the recommendations of the public services ombudsman were implemented? That would be the job of the Government or—. And what would the role of the adviser be to ensure that that was happening?

Well, if a complaint went to the public services ombudsman, the adviser, I'm sure, would be aware of that, and the assisting panel and the Welsh Ministers. But, like any other complaint that's taken forward and that ends up with the public services ombudsman, they will rule on that complaint and often produce recommendations to that particular body. We obviously hear that in terms of recommendations coming forward for a health board, for example, or a local authority. So, I think that would just be the same way in which other complaints are handled by the public services ombudsman.

What recourse is there for the adviser if they feel that a future Government is not listening to their advice?

Again, I'm just thinking of the ways in which the VAWDASV national advisers raise issues with me, or maybe, on occasion, frustrations about a lack of delivery in a particular part of policy delivery. The Welsh Ministers have got the ultimate power, haven't they—and it doesn't need to be laid down in a statute as such—to intervene and follow up concerns. Also, we're talking about individual complaints, and that's not something that—. The adviser is about advising on policy and service delivery as a result of that policy; it's not a casework service or a complaints service. But, as I said, all the individual bodies have got their own complaints procedures anyway, and sometimes those complaints can become very public, can't they, which in itself is a means of monitoring what's going on. So, the BSL adviser is an adviser, not a commissioner, and it doesn't have those enforcement powers.

I think the Bill relies on transparency and open reporting, and that can help with monitoring the way the duties are being implemented. As I said, a BSL adviser can request further information from listed public bodies if there are concerns raised.

Thank you. Can I now call Altaf Hussain?

Thank you very much, Chair. Cabinet Secretary, my question area is costs and barriers to implementation. The BSL stakeholder group has made a number of recommendations in relation to developing the BSL teaching workforce and increasing the number of people entering the BSL interpreting and translation profession. How is the Welsh Government planning to take these recommendations forward?

Thank you very much, Altaf, for that question. I've referred more than once to the BSL stakeholder group recommendations. We've got short and long-term recommendations. I think, in terms of the short term, we're very much looking at mapping provision as well as examples of good practice. I think particularly questions around mapping, for example, BSL within the education workforce. The Welsh Government—and this is for us, for any Bill, for any legislation—should map out the existing teaching workforce to understand existing levels of BSL provision. There's a lot of awareness raising to be done, like defining BSL with the education sector, which comes through the workforce. I think it's important that a long-term recommendation is to map and research the existing career barriers to becoming and progressing as a BSL interpreter or translator, and also in this long-term recommendation, working with Careers Wales to consider ways in which a career in interpreting or translation could be promoted. So, the short and long-term recommendations, we're following through with our BSL stakeholder group, with our route-map, but these actions would support the development of a national BSL strategy.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The RIA does not estimate the cost of measures that listed public bodies may decide to undertake as part of local BSL plans. Academics from the University of Edinburgh have told us that a lack of funding for the implementation of the BSL Act in Scotland has led to the development of extremely cautious local BSL plans, with public bodies waiting for the national Government to act or provide funding. What could Welsh Government do to avoid a similar situation in Wales?

Thank you for that. And it is helpful, and we are certainly looking at how the Act is being implemented—well, you’ve given the example in Scotland. And, of course, the Member, Mark Isherwood, has reflected some cost considerations, hasn’t he, in his RIA? But not all of the actions—the delivery of actions—in terms of the BSL plans will be covered with that. I think it would be helpful to explore, with Mark, how additional costs may be managed over time. But I think this is also how working together with deaf signing communities is very important. We can learn lessons, can’t we, from Scotland.

We’ve talked about partnership working, haven’t we, looking at best practice, the BSL guidance that’s going to be produced by an incoming Government, and I think it’s important that we have committed to those costs in the first year of the implementation of the Bill. Of course, we can’t assess future costs in terms of the plans, the BSL plans, once they’re produced by listed public bodies. But this, again, will be for a future Government to consider, in terms of the way forward for the budget for the following year. And those listed bodies—we’ve got to recognise that we’ve got a close partnership agreement, for example, with local government, and we’ve got to look at how we can support our public bodies in the best way in terms of taking this forward.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. My last question is—

Could I just interrupt, Altaf, because Sioned had a supplementary question to the previous answer?

Yes, and I think the BSL stakeholder group is very aware that they need to and they want to engage. And some of them do engage with these public bodies already, and there is full engagement with the Welsh Government. But they recognise that there has to be close working between the Welsh Government, and indeed those public bodies, to ensure that the cost implications, the guidance can reflect that. In the long term, this is actually going to be about the delivery of better services for deaf BSL signers in Wales. So, it's a real investment, isn't it, into appropriate public services. Sometimes, of course, we know that money can be redirected—it's not necessarily just additional funding that's needed. But we know this will be very much in line not just with the new BSL legislation but with our equality duties as well, our public sector equality duties, because it really will be reaching out to enable those positive examples of how services can be delivered for deaf communities.

I think it's something where there will be, perhaps, some public bodies who may be nervous and worried about this. But I hope that the ways in which our guidance will be delivered—the BSL adviser will be there to advise, which I think is a really important role, that they're not going to be pulled into a kind of commissioner or ombudsman role, they're advisers, and the assisting panel, drawn, hopefully, geographically and across sectors—and that this will see a really positive development for the delivery of public services, equitable public services, in Wales, which may, in the end, actually also be more appropriate and cost-effective.

Back to you, Altaf.

Thank you very much. Thanks, Sioned. Cabinet Secretary, do you think the Bill needs any changes or any improvements? My last question. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Altaf. As I've said, we've worked very closely together—myself and also with Mark—to agree these proposals. They go beyond the BSL (Scotland) Act and the UK Act. The adviser will be a real strength, I think, and will help those public bodies. The Bill aligns with the stakeholder group recommendations, and the guidance will be very much informed by realistic working objectives with the public bodies. But, obviously, I think this is for Mark, and the committee will come back with your responses and your scrutiny of the Bill, which I'm sure will be very helpful. We've just got to make sure the Bill has that impact, doesn't it, and is successfully implemented when it, hopefully, receives Royal Assent. There will also, of course, in the future, be opportunities for review—for example, including opportunities to add or remove listed bodies.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. I'd just like to ask whether there is any room for adding the beginning of training for more interpreters into the financial impact assessment. Because all the evidence we've heard is telling us that there is a genuine shortage of interpreters and therefore that will be a major barrier to being able to implement the ambitions of the Bill.

Well, we are—. This is part of responding to these recommendations, I think, in terms of mapping BSL. I think I've commented on that quite extensively.

Indeed you have. It's just that if it's in the financial impact assessment it gets funded in the next year, so I just wondered if perhaps you'd like to think about it, if you haven't already considered that. Is that something that could be included, in theory? Whether or not you have the money for it is another matter.

I think it's useful just to look back at—. I think there was—. We had a useful strategy, didn't we, in terms of BSL Futures. I think we basically need to be guided by the BSL stakeholder group on this on what's most appropriate, and that's why I think the first step is mapping what we need. But I don't know if, Amira, you wanted to say anything else on that.

Just a little bit on BSL Futures, then. It ran from 2006 to 2008, and it recruited and trained 30 BSL English interpreters. There were lots of lessons around that that could be discussed with the BSL stakeholder group, and we do have some statistics on the numbers of interpreters that we have now, which we can obviously write.

Yes, we're aware of that, but it has been pointed out to us that that's some time ago, and many of them are now retiring, as everybody is entitled to do. So, we wanted to just float the possibility of the need to refresh the numbers of interpreters that are available.

I think just to add that the challenge of the interpretation and translation workforce is something that the stakeholder group have flagged, which is why they have responded, I suppose, proportionately with their short-term and long-term actions, and the long-term actions—ones that are around looking at the career pathways for interpreters—they have put a timescale on that of beginning work within two years of the publication of the recommendation's report, to be completed within five years.

Fine, thank you very much.

Yes, I think that's under recommendation 15 of the longer term. I've mentioned earlier I'm working with Careers Wales as well, so I think it's helpful just to look at those recommendations to see that we are responding already.

Very good. No, no, absolutely you're responding, but I think probably—. Well, we'll be writing our report and it'll then be up to you to respond appropriately. Thank you very much indeed for your contributions, and we'll obviously send you a transcript so you can correct it if we've got anything wrong.

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much for your evidence. And that's the end of today's session, so thank you all for your presence.