National Assembly for Wales

Bore da. Croeso. Good morning and welcome to this morning's meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in the Senedd. The meeting, as always, is being held bilingually. Headsets provide simultaneous translation on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 2, and participants online can access by clicking on the globe icon on Zoom. Apologies have been received from Rhianon Passmore. Do Members have any declarations of interest they wish to make at this point?

Okay. Diolch.

We have a number of papers to note this morning, the first being a letter from Adrian Crompton, Auditor General for Wales, to myself as Chair, regarding Audit Wales's forward work programme. The auditor general has provided an update on some of his future reporting plans and work in progress, although, as has been set out in the letter, not covering the full breadth of his audit work programme. The letter notes that the committee is approaching the final months of its work during this sixth Senedd term and that there is limited committee time left. The auditor general himself is also coming towards the end of his own tenure. As such, he would welcome any thoughts this committee might have on potential future topics for his work programme, as he begins his planning process for 2026-27.

Members, do you have any comments and thoughts on this forward work programme, or are you just content to note it? Please be aware that we will be discussing the next steps on this in the private session later, as necessary. Do Members have any thoughts or comments, or are you content to note? I take silence to mean no comments, and then confirmation at this stage that you're prepared to note, in which case we shall do.

I move on to our second paper to note, a letter received from Andrew Slade, the director general of the economy, energy and transport group in the Welsh Government, to myself as Chair, regarding Cardiff Airport. The director general has written with an update regarding the timescale for the legal challenge being pursued by Bristol Airport in respect of the economic investment package for Cardiff Airport, as well as some other recent operational developments. We've also received a private letter in confidence that provides some recent operational developments at Cardiff Airport, which are described as commercially sensitive. There will be an opportunity for us to discuss this further later in the private session.

With regard to the public letter, in providing an update about the airport's performance, Mr Slade has departed from the approach that he and his predecessor have taken. He provides information against broad headings, but he does not report against the performance targets in the rescue and restructuring plan that the Welsh Government agreed with the airport, such as those set out in his update in August 2024. He provides an update about passenger numbers, routes and infrastructure developments. He also notes the airport's appointment of a new chief executive following the departure in March this year of Spencer Birns. Jon Bridge will join Cardiff Airport as the new chief executive officer on 3 November—so, he has joined this week. Andy Jones, the current interim chief executive officer, will return to his non-executive director duties.

The committee therefore may wish to clarify whether it should regard the correspondence received as the latest six-monthly update that the Welsh Government has committed to provide about Cardiff Airport. Assuming that this is the case, we may wish to consider whether to request that the Welsh Government's subsequent updates include a report against performance targets in the rescue and restructuring plan, as has previously been the case, until such time the Welsh Government confirms they're no longer applicable and explains why that is the case. Members, do you have any comments on that suggestion? Mike. 

I think that's a good idea. They may wish to have new targets, but they need to tell us what the new targets are, why the targets have been changed, and how they're performing against those targets. I hold very strong support for targets. I know that's not a view held by a lot of people in the Senedd, especially in Government, but I think targets are useful. They tell you how you're doing. Many times, you'll fail to meet a target. That's inevitable. If you meet all your targets easily, the targets are wrong. But it does show you how you're doing and gives a spur to those managing to realise that they have to do more in order to achieve what they said they're going to achieve.

Thank you. Do the other Members agree with Mike's proposal? Certainly, I personally concur. A target is an essential management tool, not something to be afraid of. They identify what's working well and what needs to be changed for the further target review period. That's the only effective way of ensuring that an organisation is running in the way it seeks to.

Assuming that's consent, we'll move forward on this item. Mr Slade also provides an update about the Competition Appeal Tribunal appeal brought by Bristol Airport. He notes that Bristol Airport had permission to apply to amend its case by the 17 October. The summary of appeal therefore currently published by the Competition Appeal Tribunal on its website may change. Has it changed, do we know, since 17 October? No.

Mr Slade confirms, as noted by this committee on 17 September, that the hearing of the appeal is due to take place during the week commencing 9 February 2026. He notes, however, that while the Competition Appeal Tribunal will publish its judgment, it may do so

'a number of weeks (or even months) after the hearing.'

Mr Slade also notes that the judgment will not necessarily conclude the matter, as it could be subject to appeal. Although he commits to provide information to us about the legal proceedings in his subsequent quarterly updates, he adds:

'it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on matters relating to the investment package, until such time as the legal proceedings are concluded.'

This, therefore, is of relevance to the committee's consideration of our next steps in that conclusion of these legal proceedings will go beyond the end of this Senedd term. It is therefore unlikely that this committee will be able to undertake any further scrutiny in this matter, given the timescale. However, we might be interested in the Welsh Government's estimate of its costs relating to the appeal, including any external fees, and may wish to request information relating to this. So, Members, do you have any comments on that part of this? Are you agreeable with the suggested actions? I'll take silence as consent, so if we could proceed on the basis of the proposed actions.

The third paper to note: we've received a letter from Manon Antoniazzi, Chief Executive and Clerk of the Senedd, to myself as Chair, with follow-up information following our scrutiny session on 2 October. She provides us with further information following our scrutiny of the Commission accounts, as I said, on 2 October. Her letter also includes a confidential annex, with information about the Commission’s approach to cyber security, which, given the security risk, can only be considered in the strictest confidence.

So, Members, can I invite you, again, to comment on the letter, noting that we will be considering an initial draft report on this matter in the private session of today’s meeting? And there will also be an opportunity for further discussion on the matters in the letter as part of our consideration of our draft report during the private session later. So, are Members content to note, or does anybody wish to comment at this point? I’ll take silence as agreement to note at this stage.

So, we can move on to paper to note 4, a letter received from Natasha Asghar MS, to myself as Chair, regarding the installation of a solar panel canopy above part of the car park at the Grange University Hospital in Cwmbran. Natasha Asghar has written to us, drawing our attention to a project being undertaken by Aneurin Bevan University Health Board to install a solar panel canopy above part of said car park. The letter raises concerns about the significant public expenditure involved, the long payback period, and the disruption to hospital operations, and asks us to consider whether the scheme represents good value for public money, and whether sufficient due diligence and options appraisals were undertaken before approval.

Are Members content to note the letter, or do you have any comments? No. Would you like us to forward this letter to the auditor general for consideration? Yes. Thank you very much indeed. I don’t know, auditor general, if you wish to comment, or just to note that we’ll be sending that to you.

Thanks, Mark. Yes, by all means, and, just to say, we have done a little bit of preliminary work on this. From what I see at the moment, I'm not sure there will be much for us to do. My understanding is that the project is part of a broader decarbonisation project that is funded from the Welsh Government, so I'm not sure there's a huge issue with the redirection of health board funds into this. But I believe Natasha has also written to the health board chief executive, so I'll be interested to see what their response says. 

So, I'm certainly happy to accept the letter, but at this stage, as I say, I don't believe that there would be a huge amount more for us to do. But we'll consider it. Thank you.  

Okay. I'd be grateful if you could capture that in a short acknowledgement to Natasha Asghar.

Yes.

Thank you. We'll otherwise move on to our fifth paper to note: scrutiny of accounts, Welsh Government 2023-24, and our consideration of the Welsh Government response. The Welsh Government has accepted all the recommendations. Supplementary responses have also been provided in the annex, where elements of the report requested updates to be provided, which were not framed as formal recommendations. Most of our recommendations sought clarification or additional information, which the Welsh Government has provided. 

One recommendation related to the publication of the timetable for the preparation and audit of the accounts, and three requested that the Welsh Government include information in its future annual accounts, which it has committed to doing. 

As noted in the Permanent Secretary's covering letter, the Welsh Government's preparation of the narrative for the performance and accountability report, to be included in the consolidated accounts for 2024-25, were substantially complete when the committee published its report. However, the Permanent Secretary notes that the Welsh Government has reflected on those recommendations and made some changes in light of them, as far as possible, given the timetable to which it was working for the preparation and audit of the 2024-25 consolidated accounts. The responses note that some of the committee's recommendations will be actioned in the Welsh Government's consolidated accounts for the following year, 2025-26.

The Welsh Government also provides information about matters to which the committee's report referred, but about which it did not make recommendations. They have shared, in confidence, information about one of these. So, Members, do you have any comments or are you content to note the response? Again, please be aware that the committee may wish to pick up any issues relating to the response during its scrutiny of the Welsh Government's consolidated accounts for 2024-25, given the comments earlier, which we are expecting to undertake in the new year. So, do you have any comments, or at this stage are you content to note? I will take silence as contentment to note.

So, we can move on to our next item, which is a proposal, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are all Members content?

Content.

Thank you. I believe all Members are content, so would therefore be grateful if we could be taken into private session.