National Assembly for Wales

Croeso. Bore da and croeso to this meeting of the Standards of Conduct Committee. As usual, the committee is bilingual and interpretation is available. For those in the meeting room, the headphones can be used for simultaneous translation from Welsh to English on channel 1. There are no apologies from members of the committee. At this point, I'm going to ask Members if they have any declarations of registrable interests they wish to declare. Great.

So, with that we'll move on to item 2, which is our evidence session 8 in our inquiry into dignity and respect. I'm really pleased to have a number of significant witnesses with us today. Rather than me introducing you, I thought I'd start by asking you each to introduce yourselves, and if you've got any initial reflections on the work around dignity and respect we'd welcome that, before Members have a number of questions.

In that role, I have corporate responsibility on behalf of the Commission for dignity and respect.

Bore da, I'm Leanne Baker. Let me take these off. I'm the chief people officer here at the Senedd, and I'm responsible for the delivery of services to Commission staff.

So, in the last two years since the Commission considered the dignity and respect framework, a number of recommendations have been carried forward, and we look forward to answering your questions on those in due course. We also look forward, of course, to hearing the results of your deliberations in the course of this inquiry, and helping to deliver those recommendations that the Senedd agree.

I know that you're familiar with the recommendations that were presented in 2023. Some of the key things that I would like to draw attention to at the beginning, which I can return to later, if the committee wants to ask us further questions, are that an overarching aim has been to make guidance as accessible and simple as possible. You'll notice that the information on the intranet has been reviewed and updated, for example, providing more information about how emotional support can be provided, both to people who have complaints to make and for people against whom complaints have been made. We've increased the number of trained contact officers, who can help complainants navigate the system, from three to 11, and the cohort now includes a greater diversity of people with protected characteristics as well.

Another big focus has been on training, and I'm delighted that over 90 per cent of Members have now received training on dignity and respect matters. It's a slightly lower number for Member support staff—just over a half, I believe, 51 per cent—but that is a number that is going up as well.

In terms of the Commission's workforce, we've been working through the staff equality networks to spread awareness of the mechanisms of making complaints relating to dignity and respect generally. We have reached over 95 per cent of Senedd Commission staff now with training, and we have a four-year rolling programme to make sure that that is refreshed annually as well. 

The other thing that I'll just draw to the committee's attention at the outset is that we have been reviewing the legislation that came into force last October, in order to satisfy ourselves that we are taking reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace, and we've adapted the Commission's dignity and respect policy to reflect that duty. As I say, we have this as an important area of focus, and are keen to have your further thoughts on the issues that you are looking at, and take steps to support the conclusions of the committee in due course.

Can I just perhaps pick up on—thank you for that update—one of the points you raised around contact officers? I think you said it's increased from three to 11. We know, from evidence that we've received from support staff, it suggests there's perhaps a perceived lack of independence. I don't know what assurances can be offered to staff in terms of making sure that they feel that they can access the service and it is fully independent.

I'll turn to Leanne on this as well. We do deal with sensitive issues regarding Members all the time, and the service provided by the contact officers is a confidential one. Obviously, it is a concern if people feel that they can't approach the contact officers in confidence, and I think that that's something that might be reflected in your work. We'd be glad to think about that again. The advantage of having contact officers in-house is that they know us as well. Under the aegis of the Commission, they can be continuously trained in evolving standards of dignity and respect, and in the way that the processes work here. So, they're up to date always on the advice that they need to give staff members. But, Leanne, is there anything you'd like to add to that?

Yes. Previously, before we had contact officers, the only place that people could seek help was in HR, and so that was a massive barrier as well to people feeling able to reach out. So, there was a decision taken to train contact officers. As Manon said, we've taken steps to increase the number, increase the diversity of those. They are Commission staff, but they are independent. They don't report to anybody their findings. There is a form that we ask them to fill in, which says some really basic information. It's all confidential, but it's about where individuals are making the complaint from. So, it gives us an idea about where there might be challenges or issues. But since we started that process back in July 2024, last year, only two records of people approaching the contact officers have been made. But again, as Manon stressed, they are individuals that have volunteered to do this. They are then put through quite a robust training process, and I would just reiterate to the committee and to wider individuals in the Senedd that they are a good source of support and a place where they can find the information and advice that they would need in order to support themselves when they're going through these kinds of issues.

Diolch. I know other Members will want to come in, but I'll just pick up on the other points at the outset. You mentioned the new legislation, the new duty to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace, and I think the committee would be grateful if you could share with us the work that has been done to look at that, and what needs to be done to reflect that. We would welcome it if you've got any updates—it may be a question for Matthew, potentially—around what that found, and what else needs to be done in order to implement that duty. Of course, if you talk to a lot of people with expertise in this field, they will say, ‘Well, it's a duty to prevent it, it's not a duty to tackle it’, so it doesn't go far enough in the law. But what does the Commission do to not just help to prevent it, but to tackle it when it happens as well? 

The legislation came into force last October, and in light of that, we have made sure that the policies of the Commission have been revised to reflect that. And those policies have recently been launched, and we've also made sure that Members have access to appropriate training in terms of their own policies. Obviously, Members are also employers, and there is support from the Commission to help Members to formulate their own policies and practices. Obviously, it's a little early to judge in terms of what the impact of that is, because the legislation only came into force last October, and we've implemented the changes in recent months.

I think it's a difficult one to crack, in the sense that it's obviously about cultural change, it's not just about having the policies in place. Obviously, as the Commission, our starting point is always to make sure that our policies are in the right place, and what we have to do is listen to what the committee says at the end of this work in terms of what your recommendations are, and continue to work with the stakeholders, the political contacts that we have, and also the staff networks and so on, to ensure that it's very clear that the Commission takes this issue very seriously. But I think it's a little early at the moment to say too much about what the impact of what those changes are.

Could I, Chair, just add that we've updated the language in some places as well in the dignity and respect policy? So, we talk about a zero-tolerance approach and an inclusive, respectful workplace, and we've also updated the definitions of inappropriate behaviour, which are now aligned with legal definitions of harassment, sexual harassment and victimisation. We've included examples of that, again, to reinforce mutual understanding of what we're talking about, and to try to clarify what the reporting procedure is and the organisational framework for dealing with it when it happens. So, the policy does go further in terms of addressing it when it happens, rather than concentrating solely on preventing it. But, of course, clearer definitions and spreading awareness of what is meant here, training and education, is part of prevention as well.

Thank you. Just one final point from me, because I can see Pred is definitely itching to come in over there. But in terms of updating the policies and having the policies in place, I think Matthew made the point around cultural change, but it's also how it's communicated, so what steps—? I think a lot of information will come through to officers, so what steps are you taking to consider how it can be best communicated to Commission staff, to support staff, to anybody that works on the estate, about things that have been updated to help support them, but where they do go for support as well? 

Yes, it's really important, and that's something that we discussed with the Commission when discussing the paper, and putting signage in public places around the Senedd building to raise awareness and signpost people to the guidance. The guidance is obviously there on the intranet, and the training activities help to draw attention to it as well. Leanne, do you want to expand a bit on that?  

As part of induction, we go into dignity and respect. Particularly as a result of the updated Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) Act 2023, we go into some more detail around that in terms of raising awareness. We've got the refreshed intranet pages and we've recently launched our people and culture strategy, which has in there a culture of workplace inclusivity. And I think we can go back to the values that we've got. One of our main values, which are very well embedded within the organisation, is respect. I'd like to think that people know that we're that kind of organisation, and would actively reach out to find that information in easy places such as the intranet or through the contact officers.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for that. 

Diolch, Peredur. So, within the training, there is an element of bystander training, although a couple of years ago we had a campaign called the Call It Out campaign, and we felt it was really successful. It was a commitment that staff made that they would call any inappropriate behaviour out. It's something that we reflected upon recently when we had some training from Uzo Iwobi, who is one of our independent advisers, and we realised the importance of resurrecting that campaign. So, the team are working on that at the moment, which does give—. I remember that campaign when it was first launched. It certainly gave me the confidence to call someone out when I felt that they were being inappropriate—not in the moment, but I e-mailed them separately and had a conversation. It was just that kind of dialogue, but it does give people the confidence, and I think there is a value in resurrecting that, so we are doing that at the moment.

Because having a campaign—it's potentially short-lived, but it's then how you maintain that over time. I suppose the other aspect is calling things out and calling out inappropriate behaviour in the workplace, but also that affects the workplace. I'm thinking now of things on social media and from Members' point of view, from Members' staff, from Commission staff, committee staff, where there is trolling and inappropriate things directed at staff on social media. I'm noticing that one of the recommendations is to introduce some technological solutions to try and help with monitoring some of this.

Something that the Scottish Parliament has implemented is some software that looks at social media engagement, trolling and that sort of thing, and to be able to do that corporate responsibility of potentially prosecuting somebody, or putting things in place if things happen. Is that something that you've engaged with or looked at, or has it been brought to your attention that it's something that the Commission might want to look at as a solution to try and help with that sort of behaviour?

We have looked at streamlining the technology for reporting, and that is in place. But that sounds like a very interesting initiative, and we do benchmark constantly with our colleagues in the other Parliaments, and that sounds like a useful thing to investigate.

I'd encourage you to maybe make some enquiries on that. I know a little about it, but it sounded like something that was a good solution to be able to tackle some of this work. Going back to calling things out and being able to do that, part of working in this environment is that power dynamic issue that can arise with elected Members and staff, and all those power dynamics there. How have you tackled that practically, then, within these frameworks? I know you've changed the words—you've changed that—but it's about how you change culture. How have you embedded some of the work that you're doing, or is there an ongoing programme of embedding?

Well, I think I can speak—. Speaking in terms of my responsibilities for the Commission, we do focus a lot on our corporate values. We communicate those, we engage with staff, we survey on a regular basis. So, we receive feedback, quite often anonymised, so that people can say what's on their mind, and that gives us areas of focus to take things on. But culture change is a continuous effort, and it means establishing clear principles and sticking to them, and showing an example in that respect.

I think we—. I'd draw attention to the fact that the Members' code was reviewed in 2021, and the quality of 'respect' was added into that code as well. And whereas, of course, Members are responsible for employing their own staff, you will know that part of our work is to support Members in that work, and provide a template, provide training and so on. So, I would hope that you might be able to, in the course of your deliberations, give us ideas on how we can continue and improve to do that.

Finally, really, from me, a part of that, and talking about HR support, is—. As a new Member, four years ago—. Obviously, I had come from business, so I had managed staff in the past, but other Members might not have managed staff, or not managed them for a while, and were not fully up to date with the current legislation. Is there any thought, as we go into the seventh Senedd, as to how HR support for newer Members, or Members coming in for the first time, is able to embed this, but in a way that doesn't release us from our responsibility as employers, but as, effectively, a HR department for us, so that we don't have to necessarily do all that work ourselves, and that, rather than it being advisory, it's being a bit more hands-on in some of that element? So, is that—? Have you been thinking more about what needs to change over the next year or so, in preparation for a larger Senedd?

I'll hand over to both—. I'm sure both Matthew and Leanne will have things to say on this, but the short answer is 'yes'. Preparations for the seventh Senedd occupy a lot of our time at the moment, as you can imagine, and preparations for a larger than usual new cohort of Members, because of the extended numbers. We do have to be careful that we don't overstep a line, in terms of the employment relationship between Members and staff. That is how we are organised at the moment. If we start taking employment duties over, that can lead to difficult places, legally, and lack of clarity. But we are expanding the Members' business service; that is part of the expansion we foresaw in the regulatory impact assessment when the Bill was passed. We are actively thinking about ways we can support Members in their induction, and also phase information, so that some of the most important information is given to them at the time when they need it, so the priority has been to set up offices, and establish themselves, so that they can go on and take part in the work of the Senedd and contribute. Obviously, part of that is how to employ staff, and, as different Members will have different needs, we support that process. Matthew.

Members may remember—I think it was two years or so ago—the Commission conducted a listening exercise, where Members were invited to speak to staff from the Commission about preparations for the seventh Senedd. One of the things that was picked up from that was feedback about the process, particularly for new Members—and I know we have two Members here today who were new in 2021—and how we deliver those services when Members arrive. We've listened very carefully to that, and one of the things that Members said was that a lot of information was given very early on, and that it was a little bit overwhelming.

So, there are some things that we can do to improve that—some quite simple things, just in terms of how we sequence, how we give information to Members. So, when Members arrive on day one, there are things that you need to know immediately about access to services, access to this building, and getting your ICT set up. Members then need to know about things like becoming an employer, if you've not done if before, and some of the other corporate responsibilities that you have. And then some of the other things that we provide support and training on, such as scrutiny of Ministers and engaging with the work of committees, can wait a little while, because those things don't necessarily get up and running straight away.

So, there is work ongoing, at the moment, to make sure that we enhance and improve the support that we give to Members when they arrive in terms of how it's packaged, how it's presented, how it's accessed and also when it's given, so that we don't repeat what Members fed back to us, that pattern of slightly overwhelming Members. We're very aware that Members come into this institution because they have an agenda, they want to change things, and it's not always immediately obvious to somebody, when they're standing for election, that, when they become a Member, there are all these additional corporate responsibilities that go along with it, and it's our role to help Members with that. And the Member support service is there throughout the whole time that somebody is a Member here. But we are listening very carefully, and again, if you have anything as a committee you want to suggest about that, we're very, very happy to hear what you can say about it, particularly from those Members who were new in 2021.

Just to build on, I think, the point Peredur was making about newly elected Members, with often different levels of prior experience as well—it's how you make sure that that is tailored relative to someone's experience as well. Obviously, lots of this will be very new to everybody, but there'll be some areas where, frankly, some of the training is a bit of a waste of time to someone who has employed people before, maybe not through the Senedd, compared to somebody who hasn't, and I wonder what flexibility there is in the training and the support that you offer to recognise where a Member has a particular need or perhaps doesn't have a particular area of expertise.

Yes, I think what we need to do is have the guidance and support available on all of the range of activities that a Member needs to undertake, and then essentially take feedback from individual Members about what they want to access. It's not our role as the Commission to force any of that on Members; Members can choose to take no guidance from us at all, because, as Manon said, ultimately, you are the employer, and there are other responsibilities that come with setting up an office and so on. But it's a fair point that you've made, and we are taking that sort of thing on board, to make sure that we package the offer as best we can. It's difficult to tailor to 96 individual Members, but, obviously, we need to make sure that we've got the support available and that we can present it in the right way, and make sure that we're not (a) either overloading Members with information, or providing things that aren't particularly relevant to an individual Member.

I just wanted to come back on the points that were made previously about culture, and trying to build the culture in the Senedd of dignity and respect, which I know was in the recommendations. Obviously, it's a unique workplace, probably, which has a kind of soap opera-like rotating cast of characters, where you get more people coming in, particularly around the period of an election. Those people will have different experiences themselves in terms of what they deem acceptable, based on previous employment, the generation that they were brought up in, or whatever else it might be. Getting that uniformity, if you like, of an experience of culture then makes it quite difficult from your perspective, and I suppose it's important that that work doesn't cease and is ever considered to be a kind of tick in the box and done. So, how are you—again, reflecting on different Members', probably, expectations of dignity and respect—ensuring that that is a culture that crosses, like I say, cultural or political lines? 

I think it goes back to clarity of expectations, which I talked about before. One of the recommendations from the 2023 report was for the Commission to make its position plain on this matter, and we've just, for example, adopted a new people and culture strategy—this is for the Commission side of the organisation—in which those qualities are embedded and clear. Another of the recommendations suggested that there be a renewed statement of commitment to dignity and respect issues, and I think there's a draft of that that was presented to this committee when the Commission asked you to undertake this work two years ago. So, that could be part of the outcome of your work, so that there are strong statements of political leadership as well. If that is what the Senedd wishes to do, that is a very powerful thing. Do you want to expand?

I think, in terms of training, you're right. Mandatory training means that everybody needs to have that training, and they also need to have it on an ongoing basis, so that does form part of training for Commission staff. As Manon said earlier on, we've got about 95 per cent of people that are trained at the moment and we'll continue to ensure that they are then trained at regular intervals going forward, and made aware if there are any legislative changes that have been made as well. You're right, it can be just a piece of training that's done and then it's forgotten about, but we need to re-emphasise to ensure that we maintain that culture here, through training, that this is the kind of place that we want to be, and give people the confidence to call it out and to raise complaints where they feel necessary.

The other thing I wanted to ask—. Recommendations 5, 6, 7 and 8 are about sharing findings with various bodies—the Standards of Conduct Committee, which is this committee, the rem board, the political contact group and the political groups themselves. Can you tell us what that process was like, and what feedback you received from those groups?

The Llywydd wrote to the bodies concerned and shared the findings. I know that follow-up considerations have been given. In terms of the groups, I think that awareness raising has been part of what has fed into the training and the high proportions of Members receiving training. So, that was part of the awareness raising, if you like, and input will be coming back to us in various forms as we discuss preparations for the seventh Senedd. Our eyes are on this inquiry now, which we're following closely, and looking forward to seeing what recommendations emerge and being part of delivering those.

Okay. Diolch.

Mick.

Obviously, this is, as you say, an incredibly complex area. Much of what you're recommending is actually geared towards a culture change and the process around that. There are obviously potential conflicts because, as you say, part of the role of the Commission is also to support Members and, of course, there are, as you say, employment law issues, the trade unions are often involved, and grievance processes, contractual processes as well. So, there are, as you say, potential dangers there in terms of certain red lines that need to be managed. Just in terms of the overall recommendations, engagement with the trade unions for staff and so on, are they very much on board and happy with the processes from the work that's gone on so far, and the direction being taken, or is that an ongoing discussion at the moment?

It's an ongoing discussion, but certainly the unions are a key way that we deal with stakeholders, as are our workplace equality networks. Leanne is the person who talks most closely to unions. 

Trade unions are involved in any consultation for any policy that we have within the Commission, so they would have been closely involved in the development of the dignity and respect policy. We have partnership meetings with trade unions in which they can bring up any formal issues that they might have. We also share with them any results of surveys et cetera, and they are very good at holding us to account on these kinds of activities. Also, we'll have separate informal discussions about any issues that they're concerned about, and I can act on that accordingly. So, trade unions are very much a trusted partner within the Commission in developing anything in relation to supporting Commission staff. 

Thank you. That's all I wanted to ask.

Thanks, Mick. Can I just pick up on that last point on the partnership meetings with trade unions? Does that include the trade unions that represent both Commission staff and support staff?

It doesn't. It's just for Commission staff.

And is there any particular reason for that?

I suppose it goes back to the point that Manon and Matthew mentioned earlier on, that our policies and procedures are specifically for Commission staff. Matthew might be able to pick up on this, but it's whether or not it would be appropriate to—

But then the support staff would still go through a similar process if they were making a complaint, though.

There is a mechanism for engagement with trade unions who represent Member support staff through a group that meets, which involves the chairs of the groups, and Members, and members of Commission staff, so there is a mechanism for those trade unions who represent support staff, for Members to feed back to the Commission in terms of developing the support that the Commission is able to offer to Members. But again—and I hope we aren't sounding like a stuck record—we do need to always bear in mind that the the Member is the employer and the Member decides who to recruit and what they want their staff to do. We're very mindful that it's not our role to interfere in the relationship between Members and their staff. So, we do have different mechanisms for engaging with support staff.

If I could just add, I'm aware that there has been attention paid to this in in Westminster recently, and that might be something that the committee would find useful to look into. This is the the employment relationship between Members and their own staff, because, as Tom mentioned, we're quite an unusual workplace, but we're not unique in the sense that quite a lot of the same dynamics apply in other parliaments as well. 

Yes. Maybe it's not for discussion today, but I think it's certainly something that does need to be considered. It's quite a complicated landscape, isn't it? We are, as Members, individual employers, but like you said, a lot of our support staff are dependent on the procedures or the processes that we have in place that relate to the Commission staff as well. So, I think that relationship between Members and MBS is perhaps one not for this committee, but for further consideration further down the line.

I'll just come back to the point you made, Manon, in relation to Peredur's question around the work they were doing in the Scottish Parliament, looking at online abuse and things like that, and the role of benchmarking against other institutions. I think one of the things we've seen from evidence from a range of witnesses throughout the course of this inquiry is that whatever recommendations the committee makes, that is not going to be the end of the process. It's something that will always need to be continually reviewed as part of that. And obviously we've been looking at models from elsewhere—Westminster is one of them—in terms of their independent process, but also asking them in terms of, if they were starting again, what would need to be changed.

And just on practicalities, and things that have been implemented elsewhere, I just wanted to ask the question around if any consideration has been given to any potential practicalities of a risk-based approach to exclusion of Members from the estate, which has been implemented at Westminster, because I know it's something that's been raised with us previously as a committee.

It's not something that the Commission has considered specifically, because we would do that at the request of Members, and if the committee would like the Commission to look into that then we're happy to do so. I do have some preliminary comments about it, though, which which may be helpful. There is a provision in the Government of Wales Act 2006—it's section 31(4), if you want the chapter and verse—that allows Standing Orders to include provision for withdrawing from Members of the Senedd

'any or all of the rights and privileges'

of the Senedd. I think firstly there's a question about whether that would cover the scenario that we're talking about here, where somebody may be excluded on the basis of an allegation. Clearly, Members can be excluded by the Senedd at the end of a process where a complaint has come to this committee and it has been upheld and the sanction is imposed by the Senedd. So, we would need to look carefully at whether this would fall within that. In any event, the exercise of any power by the Senedd is not open-ended. It can be subject to supervision by the courts.

The comparison with Westminster is always useful and instructive, but of course the Westminster Parliament is a sovereign Parliament, it has privileges that this institution doesn't have, and so we need to be cautious when we're making comparisons. My understanding as well is that, in Westminster, a Member can only be excluded on the basis of an allegation where the Member has been arrested. It doesn't apply to any allegations, so there's not necessarily an easy read-across. This would need some very careful consideration, but the Commission would be happy to do that if it's something that Members wanted us to look at.

Just to be very clear on that, the consideration here would be about access to the estate as opposed to access to the services of the Senedd. So, for example, you could have a Member hypothetically who could not access the estate, but could still take part virtually, access the library and so on. That would be the intention as to where that would be.

Yes, that's why I drew attention to the wording in the Act, because we'd need to consider whether that extends to access to the estate. It may not. There is also a question about the extent to which withdrawing access to the estate may affect a Member's ability to undertake their duties. I completely understand the point about virtual participation in Plenary and committees. That is at the discretion of the Senedd, it's not an automatic right for Members to do that. A Member could argue that by being excluded from the estate they are being prevented from carrying out their duties as they would wish to do on the back of an allegation, not on the basis of a complaint that's been upheld. So, there's not an entirely straightforward answer as to whether that is something that the Senedd would be able to do. It would need careful consideration.

Peredur, did you indicate? No. Mick, any further questions? No. Just a couple of final points, then. We talked about, obviously, the Senedd as an institution and that we want it to be a trailblazer when it comes to matters around dignity and respect, but it's also a workplace for a diverse group of people. We talked about Commission staff, we talked about civil servants, we've got support staff, we've got the contract staff as well. Are you confident that all of the different people who work here are able to raise concerns consistently and are held to the same standard? Do you consider there to be any ways in which that could be improved for the future?

We survey building users in different ways, including contractor staff who work here. Although, again, we have to be mindful of the fact, in surveying contractor staff, that they are not employed by us. But we have, with the Commission's blessing, started exploring that. I'll ask Leanne to say a bit more about that in a moment. But we're very aware that the policies that we have need to apply to all building users. So, it could be that a member of the public that is visiting feels that they have undergone some harm and there has to be recourse in terms of that as well.

As Manon said, we did recently undertake a building user survey. It was one of the recommendations, and we will continue to do that in line with the annual survey that we do with the Commission, Members and support staff. In terms of how we assure ourselves that people are able to access the complainant routes, I can't go into details, but there have been complaints made against Commission staff by contractors or people who are not Commission staff, and they have been taken forward. So, it does happen, unfortunately. But I assure the committee that they are dealt with effectively. It was heartening to see that someone who wasn't a Commission member of staff knew how to access a contact officer and was given the support that they needed, and then that matter was drawn to a conclusion. Obviously, I can't go into details about that. But we do know that that is an example of individuals who are not employed by the Commission being able to access that area of support. 

Just one thing, if I may: the three of us here today are senior leaders in the organisation. I think that it's really crucial that we set an example, firstly and absolutely, obviously, in terms of how we behave, but also in terms of making sure that we would be the first people to call out inappropriate behaviour that we see and making sure that our processes are robust and work, and that all of that is visible to the staff and to everybody on the estate. So, this really must start at the top of the organisation, and I would be confident in saying that, as senior leaders of the organisation, we do take this very seriously.

Thank you. Just one final point from me. So, obviously this inquiry is looking at, largely, how we strengthen, perhaps, the processes, the system we have in place. It may make recommendations on how we strengthen the code of conduct, but we'd anticipate, based on the evidence we've had to date, there'll be recommendations perhaps for the Commission, even for political parties, and I don't want to get you to stray into dangerous, non-apolitical ground today, but you mentioned the role for statements of political leadership as well, so I'm not going to ask you the same question I've asked others, but are there recommendations that we can make from all partners that use, are a part of, this institution, which will help us in getting to where we need to be in matters of dignity and respect?

I don't think I can get drawn on specifics, you're right, Chair; it's simply to say that we recognise that this is a collective endeavour. Our job as Commission staff is to support the elected Members and try and attract the best talent here by making the workplace culture as positive and inclusive and fair as we can make it, and support Members, in establishing their own offices, to do the same. So, our authority derives from the Commission, so we look to the Commission for leadership in that, and we're glad to see the strong statements that have been made up until now.

Can I thank you very much for joining us this morning, and thank you for your contributions? As usual, a copy of the transcript will be provided as soon as possible so that you can check it for factual accuracy, but thanks again for your time this morning, and I'm sure the committee will be in touch soon.

Diolch yn fawr.

With that, I propose in accordance with Standing Orders 17.42(ii) and (vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to agree the motion? Diolch. In which case, we will now continue in private.