National Assembly for Wales

Good morning, everyone. We are now going to start our evidence-gathering session for the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. Before I invite the guests to introduce themselves, I'll just ask Members to declare any interests that they might want to put on the record. No-one. No declarations of interest. We haven't received any apologies from committee members. We will be having the Cabinet Secretary taking the place of the Minister for skills, for personal reasons, who can't make it today.

We'll go straight into questions once I ask the guests to introduce themselves. I'll start in the committee room here, with Owain Jones—if you could, for the record, introduce yourself—and then move across to Leigh. Then, we'll go to the screen for the remote guests to introduce themselves and the organisation they're representing first.

Owain Jones, representing the regional learning and skills partnership in south-west Wales. I also sit as a trustee and board member of the Construction Industry Training Board nationally.

Good morning. Leigh Hughes, chair of the Cardiff capital region regional skills partnership—have been it for the last seven years, from its learning, skills and innovation partnership days and its concept to its current position. I'm also the chair of CITB Wales and have various other advisory bodies and roles, which are not skills related, with UK and Welsh Government.

I'm Ceri Stephens. I'm the group manager for the Mid Wales Manufacturing Group, and I'm the chair of the manufacturing and engineering cluster group for the mid Wales regional skills partnership.

I'm Pryderi, the managing director at Menai Science Park, but here this morning representing the north Wales regional skills partnership, and I'm the chair of its digital group.

Thank you all for your introductions. Obviously, the committee is undertaking a review into apprenticeships here in Wales. I'll open with a nice soft-ball question to try and extract from all four of you the positive benefits of the partnerships that you're involved with in delivering apprenticeships in your respective areas. I'll start with Owain Jones, and then work across, and then we'll go to our guests who have joined us remotely.

Well, the positive benefits are that it brings young people into an industry that has a massive skills shortage. I would speak from a traditional route of apprenticeship, where the employer takes on that young person from day one. I'm proud to say that we as a company have a 100 per cent achievement rate of getting apprentices through their programme, working with local further education colleges. We were also awarded apprentice employer of the year in small and medium-sized enterprise last year. 

And I must also, as a board member of CITB, say that we're still an industry that has a training body for grant purposes, but also for support. And I think that's vital that CITB, working with the colleges—that's why we have got such a high achievement rate of apprenticeships within construction within Wales currently. So, I think, that whole matrix of support brings some success. I don't know whether that is something that—. Given some data that I've had, that doesn't seem to be a pattern that's replicated through all sectors.

How do you link it, though, to the economic priorities? It's one thing meeting your own priorities, but how do you manage to link it to the economic priorities in the area that you're operating so that you're challenging yourself all the time to develop and meet the current need, rather than maybe a need that is four, five, six years old?

I think that the RSP and its cluster construction group is of assistance in that, because you have the link between their data gathering and industry trends and thoughts that come via employers. But I would say that it is a challenging map for industry currently, because there's uncertainty with regard to public spending and private spending. There's the challenge of the minimum wage increases, the national insurance increases, which currently are a disincentive for those employers that are wanting to take on full-time apprentices. And given that backdrop, it's a disincentive to a lot of employers currently to look into the future.

Okay. Leigh.

If I just talk about the role of the RSP in bringing that together, then, and meeting the demand-led—. So, the principal roles for me and the chair and the board is to—. We've got priority sectors that we're looking into, which is the current and three to five years ahead. So, we don't look back, we're looking forward all the time, to make sure that—. And we're identifying what challenges and barriers that presents to Government and policy advisers in deliverability.

So, we have demand-led cluster groups supported, then, by supply and catalysts. Now, supply would be the colleges and training providers, and catalysts would be governing bodies and awarding bodies. So, what we do is work very collectively over the time. And I think the role of what we've done over it is, prior to the RSP, it was very difficult, or very challenging, then, to get openness and transparency for people to work together for the greater good of the region, because there was a level of competitiveness between colleges, training providers and so forth. Coming together for a common purpose and a driven agenda are important where we work collectively. And with the RSP being demand and employer-led, I think that means we can get those people around the table to work collectively, because we are the ones that need the apprentices and the training and the provision done, because we deliver jobs. So, I think, being focused on what jobs does it turn into rather than theoretical large numbers in, small numbers out—how we inform and capture that has been progressive and improving year on year.

I think the challenge we have—and that we've identified in our three-year plan—is the agility and flexibility to create new apprenticeships for jobs that are only just becoming visible and starting to become visible. An apprenticeship, in terms of developing it, will take 18 months to design, award, co-ordinate this, that and the other, and it's very challenging in terms of meeting future need, which is not 10, 15 years away—we're talking three to five years away. So, I think we've identified some challenges, and we're working closely with all parties to try and understand how we can become more flexible in meeting the needs of employers for upcoming industries that are progressive.

Okay. Thank you. We've got the chair of the north Wales partnership who's got his hand up on the screen.

Thank you very much, Chair. Yes, just to come in there on the role of the RSPs, I think the crucial role that they play, as Leigh outlined there, is that the RSP can look at the here and now and bring people together. So, we've had really successful examples of this very recently around the island in Anglesey, for example, where we've been that honest broker around a pilot that we did in Anglesey, bringing different organisations together for the here and now. But, crucially, I think, having a strategic view as well over the long term, the RSP is embedded into programmes, such as the north Wales growth deals, the free port here on Anglesey, the investment zones, so making sure that we have that long-term strategic view, as well as being that ear on the ground for the here and now. 

And just to pick up on the point the Leigh made previously, if you're delivering new apprenticeships in 18 months, Leigh, you're doing very well. From our experiences, they can take much, much longer that. That flexibility, that speed, that agility is something that we crave and that we're calling for.

Okay, thank you. Ceri.

Thank you. I think where the RSPs have been very successful is in providing an employer voice and bringing those stakeholders together so that everybody can understand the challenges and the difficulties and try and work together to try and address some of those issues. So, I think, like you say, we know we've got challenges, particularly around delivery for the degree apprenticeship in mid Wales, and it's about bringing those parties together to try and address some of those issues.

Given that the partnerships, obviously, only have a remit to go for full-time and support full-time apprenticeships, do you see that as a hindrance in being able to look at the role that you could play in, obviously, supporting part-time apprenticeships? And you've talked about data that you gather as well—that data isn't publicly available, I don't think, is it, Leigh?

In terms of capturing data, the data that we capture—the four RSPs, really, and perhaps I'll speak from—. The four RSPs work with Data Cymru, and I know on our website, visible to all, is our data observatory. And I know from the labour market intelligence and all the data that we capture as a Cardiff capital region,  because of the diversity of businesses—scale small, travel distance—that all the colleges use our data observatory and that Welsh Government use the data observatory.

What we have done, and have done campaigns over, is to raise awareness of it, because we have been conscious over the years that the data that was originally captured when we were the LSkIP, and in the early years of the RSP, wasn't that good, if the truth be told—it wasn't functional, it wasn't realistic, it wasn't capturing the right data that allowed us to inform a strategy and a vision. So, we've changed as a board. We've become more strategic in meeting that. So, we've developed our Data Cymru and our LMI, and the data observatory, which is visible to everyone on our website, is now being used and we get really good feedback. What we have to do, though, is raise awareness that that is a central place for them to go to, because employers us it as well.

Anyone else want to comment on data and the use of data, and in particular the restriction on, obviously, your ability to support part-time apprenticeships, because, obviously, I think you're mandated just to deal with full-time apprenticeships? Pryderi.

Just on data, I guess it's coming from that honest broker position again, from what we've seen and I've seen. In the digital sphere, for example, I have seen some trade organisations in the creative digital sector talk about data and they have been quite bullish and quite buoyant, for example, whereas I've seen the RSP conducting research into the sector and the needs showing quite a challenging picture. So, I guess, from that perspective, there's an element of trust in the data that the RSPs try to surface, whereas if you listen to, I don't know, trade organisations and so forth, it might not quite be the same quality.

And the other thing is the qualitative and quantitative data as well—we've talk to people and we are the ear on the ground, which is really, really important.

Part-time apprenticeships.

I think they're essential. I think that that's where we're missing a trick. We need work experience to be linked with full-time apprenticeships. The data that I've seen disappoints me on the numbers going into the system, and the numbers coming out with level 3 qualifications or above, and I think we should be looking at linking work experience to apprenticeships as a priority.

Okay. Ceri, I think you wanted to come in.

Yes, just on that data point, I think it's about timeliness of data as well. A lot of the information from StatsWales takes a long time to go through the process of being verified. I think the Careers Wales destination data is limited in what it’s telling us. I know as a region we spend an awful lot of time going through individual standard industrial classification codes for the different sectors, making sure that they were representative of the region. So, there are some quick wins that could be made here, in terms of just getting that information out more quickly. And on the part-time provision, I know that a lot of work was done on the personal learning accounts provision by the regions, and having an input into that to make sure that that was representative as well.

[Inaudible.]—you wanted to ask?

Chair, are you calling me?

Yes. 

Yes, okay. So, really good, honest answers here; I really appreciate the depth of the evidence. Just as an aside and a quick question, regarding the apprenticeship levy, given the contact you have with employers, has anyone found that employers are pushing back against the apprenticeship levy, and does that limit the Welsh Government's—because it's a UK levy—room for manoeuvre with regard to funding these kinds of apprenticeships?

If I can come back in to Hefin there, then.

Yes, go on, Leigh. 

So, it’s just—. We’ve held a couple of events, Hefin, with—. I think, in this instance, we’ve got to look at the employers in the Cardiff capital region, I'll speak as the—. If I just talk about the apprenticeship levy first, because we’ve also got to deal with the CITB levy, which I know that, perhaps, Owain will pick up on. On the apprenticeship levy, we’ve worked and held events with large employers, because, usually, they’re the ones that are paying it because they’re sourced in England. And I think that divergence between England and Wales on the levy is a challenge, because the structure over in England is changing again, with the T-levels and other things that are happening over in England. Skills England is being developed as a board and a body.

So, the apprenticeship levy has been challenging, I’d say, and it’s become a bit of a barrier, yes. There’s a frustration among large employers. If you think of it simplistically as the Welsh job market, then, it’s two triangles upside down next to each other. The highest point is the small number of large employers, but they employ a large number of people, and at the bottom of the triangle, then, the employers of all the SMEs, but they’re the smallest number. So, I can understand that if you’re trying to get some impact, you go to the small top of the wedge in one triangle, because they’ve got the largest number in the job market. They struggle and have a frustration—a continual frustration—in that the throughput of money coming through Barnett into the college system and the university system, to allow them through—. And with degrees, especially degree apprenticeships coming online, because that’s where they will predominantly look a lot at, there’s a frustration, because they want to, then, look at the pathway from degrees to Master's, doctorates and so on, so the level 7 stuff. So, there is a barrier, but that’s been—. We hit a wall when we try and overcome that, if the truth be told.

Okay, Hefin. Jenny. 

Good morning. I’m going to be asking some general overall questions, so I may need to come to all of you, but please don’t repeat what a colleague has already said. We’ll just assume you agree unless you disagree. So, if I start with colleagues online, the vocational qualifications for Wales steering group report says that 

'Wales does not have a strategy for vocational education and training'.

Whose job is it to take that forward, and how would you like to see it happen? So, if I start with Pryderi ap Rhisiart.

Thank you. I think whose job, whose role is that, in developing that, I believe, with the introduction of Medr at the moment, in a very operational perspective, and the Welsh Government from a policy perspective—. So, I very much see the development and the policy direction as a Welsh Government function, and then Medr playing a crucial role in developing the internal work, the details, if you like, of how that would operate.

I’ll just come to Ceri Stephens. We’ve got a climate emergency; it’s pretty serious if we haven’t got Medr and Welsh Government sorting this out as a matter of extreme urgency. Ceri.

Yes, I think having a clear strategy is really important for all those stakeholders, isn’t it, to work together, really. So, the sooner Medr and Welsh Government can develop that, the better it will be for all, really.

Excellent. Thank you. Leigh Hughes. 

You said only come in if you're not totally in agreement. So, I would say that the role of this, looking as an employer and a demand-led private sector, is the First Minister's role and the Minister for economy. What we haven't had or haven't seen transparently and cohesively is a Wales economic growth policy. To develop the apprenticeship and the vocational need, that isn't the driver of the policy. The policy is written by the top of the tree. They are the enablers that implement, then, the policy into reality. So, I wouldn't say that Medr has the role to write it, it's driven by the First Minister. And how are we going to shape our country and be progressive and economically grow and become more wealthy and progressive? Then it drops down into Medr and vocational training, but then we've also got to look at where do the skills come into it, how do we align the skills.

So, I think that there's a need to put the picture on the front of the jigsaw box at the moment, because there are lots of pieces working in Wales, some of them working together, but cohesively aligned with a common purpose, with consistent roles and responsibilities and what your role is delivering for that common purpose—I don't think we've got that clarity yet as an RSP and the vocationals. I think that they need to underpin a higher level economic growth and policy strategy.

How debilitating is it that we don't have an industrial strategy anywhere in the UK?

Frustrating. [Laughter.]

Owain Jones.

I would have to agree with Leigh. On the zero-carbon agenda, from my sector, the house building agenda, the retrofit agenda, there needs to be clarity of where the public spend is, how it is targeted. From that spend, you can prepare your skills needs to meet that spend. But at the moment, we're in darkness because we haven't got the clarity of where the spend is in the foreseeable future for us to have a sensible vocational training plan.

Thank you. Estyn says that there's no published—

Jenny, can I just draw your attention? Pryderi wanted to come back in.

Oh, sorry. I beg your pardon, Pryderi.

I was just going to come in there, really, and say that whilst we don't have an industrial strategy, and that would be welcomed, we do know that certain things are happening in Wales. We have a free-port programme, we have investment zones, we have growth deals, and the spend profiles from all of those and the jobs created should give us a really good understanding for having a strategic view of the needs, pan Wales. But if we do develop that strategic vision for Wales, it also has to be mindful of regional nuances and strengths. So, just to be mindful of that. And that's a crucial role, then, for the RSP to feed those regional nuances, visions, and seeing that horizon scanning, if you like, of future needs into whatever is developed by the Welsh Government. 

Okay. Well, thank you for pointing that out, Pryderi. Estyn says that there's no published national analysis of trends in the offer. How would you convert all the things that you've just listed? Is that a way of bringing together the national trends so that we can shape the vocational courses offer against the context of where the pipelines of jobs are?

Absolutely, yes. The RSP has a crucial role to play there, I'd suggest, because of that—they have their ear to the ground here and now with employers. There's a really good connection between our employer groups and industry. So, there's an ear to the ground and there's that view to the future as well. And if that helps Estyn to develop their strategies, going forward, then that link needs to be strengthened, I'd suggest. 

To summarise, in north Wales, you think that there is clarity on what are the vocational skills that are required and the relationship between the education providers and employers is working effectively. Is that correct?

Absolutely, and the role of the RSP to bring those together has been instrumental in doing that. So, yes, that's a great success of the RSP here in the north, pulling those key actors together. And embedding themselves in key projects, as I mentioned, the growth deal and so forth, has been, really, a part of the strategic vision for north Wales for years to come. It's crucial how we embed skills and the RSP in those sorts of projects from the very beginning.

Okay, so does anybody else want to comment on this—Estyn's point? Leigh Hughes.

Yes, thank you, I want to come in. They do produce an overview of results, however it's not linked to the impact, and I think that's one thing that we're trying to improve: what is the impact of all the interventions we're putting in place? So, we get results, but they don't talk to us about the impact on supply chain and the talent pipeline we've got coming. We've got enough data to tell us what the talent pipeline is. 

And if I can revert back to an example that's current that we're working on—and that I've got a meeting this Friday with Medr on, actually—is, you talked about climate change, free ports and investments zones, we've got the Crown Estate bidding currently for three parcels of sea in the Celtic sea—1.5 GW of clean energy. That's going to be a 30-year-plus industry. To get the energy first of all running and back to the grid, there's an awful lot of heavy construction work, and it involves concrete, steelwork, form work, scaffolding. A foundation is roughly the size of a football pitch and it's about 90 ft high. There is no current—. So, what I will say is—and I'm under a non-disclosure agreement, because I'm working for one of the developers—I know, obviously, from filling in the tender, because my role was to do the jobs and all of that stuff, that the young people not in education, employment or training and apprenticeship provision requested by the Crown Estate in the tender to all tenderers is massive numbers—massive numbers. 

Now, I'm hoping that there's communication and collaboration going on between Welsh Government, UK Government and the Crown Estate on data analysis to see if that market is available here. However, go to the next step: there is no current provision in Wales in FE to deliver steel apprenticeships, form work apprenticeships, concrete apprenticeships and drainage and civil engineering—ground work apprenticeships.

So, we've got a massive industry coming in the next three to five years, which is going to need an awful lot of construction work, but we don't have the provision. We're going to have a client that says we've got to create these opportunities, we're going to have visibility and awareness through schools and NEETs and so forth, but then they say, 'Right, which college are we going to?' There's no provision. That's the current challenge you're meeting—a real-life example of where we're at at the moment in demand, supply and catalyst working collaboratively to solve a problem.

Okay, that's very serious. What role should the regional skills partnerships play at a national level in providing the labour market intelligence and co-ordination that, Leigh, you've just described?

I'll come in there, then. The word that we've got here is 'consistency'. So, at the moment, like I said, the evolution of the RSPs has been, year on year, challenge, feedback, debate, strategy, how to improve—continuous improvement all the time. And we've now got the four RSPs project management team meeting every month, talking about awareness. And when there's a pan-Wales sector, what we've instigated now is one where the key RSP that's got the most important role in that sector takes the pan-Wales role and are the lead for that sector, and then they share and disseminate the information to the other three RSPs. That didn’t exist before, so we're now working collaboratively, both at a regional level, but with awareness and understanding of what happens at the holistic Welsh level. The words that we've got obviously, like I said, are 'common purpose' and 'consistency'. I can't guarantee you that we're working consistently everywhere, and I think that's acknowledged by all parties.

Okay. So, now that Medr has taken over the responsibilities of apprenticeships, how has that altered your relationship with the Welsh Government, if at all?

It's improving. In fairness to Medr—Simon, Rhian and the team—we're having continuous monthly meetings with them and the four RSPs have signed an agreement with them to work collaboratively there, because the RSP contract is with Welsh Government, so it's not part of Medr's responsibility. 

I think it's work in progress. You say that they've taken responsibility, I think they're still building their team. Neil is building his team in the Welsh Government skills team. I don't think they both agree yet who is the driver, who is the policy, so I think, over the next 12 months, it's going to be really interesting to see how that shapes—what role do the independent training organisations have then aligned to Medr and apprenticeship delivery? So, as a market, we're still trying to understand who is the lead and what their role is. So, in terms of visibility, I don't think it's as clear as that, but it is working and everybody's working towards that—

Have we really got 12 months, when all these potential—

No, but, by the time you look at the recruitment of the Welsh Government skills team, the recruitment of staff going into Medr to lead with this, then the review of all the apprenticeship frameworks, of which there are over 200, and of which the majority don’t have any new starts in the last couple of years—that sort of review of frameworks—I think there’s an awful lot of work that Medr will be needing to do and they’ve got challenging situations, but they are opening out. They’re making themselves available and I can’t fault their openness and transparency. But I think people need to realise the size of the task that they’ve got to pull this all together, and the visibility of who owns what and what the roles and responsibilities are. It’s still a bit unclear.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you. Hefin.

Thank you. Can I ask the panel—anyone who really wants to address this—is there any appetite or plan to grow and develop supported apprenticeships for those with additional learning needs or learning disabilities? You may be aware of the work of Engage to Change at Cardiff University, which has now ended. How can we expand that provision?

Who wants to take that? Go on, Owain. You looked at me.

Well, I think ‘yes’ is the answer, whilst within my sector, construction, it can be somewhat difficult, due to health and safety challenges. But what I would say is vitally important is we’ve lost the level 2 level of apprenticeship. It’s all now level 3. That has caused casualty, because it’s prevented people from getting on to the apprenticeship ladder and having a position where they can exit their journey with something to show for it. So, I think your request for us to help those with learning difficulties et cetera would be greatly assisted by the reinstatement of a level 2 provision.

Anyone else want to say anything?

Can I just come in? I think we and the Cardiff colleges, obviously, we’re working with the young person’s guarantee and the civic mission, and we’re working across ethnic minority groups and so forth, but I think what we’ve got to look at it, when you get down to those, is the individual case, because every one will be a bit different, because some of them will have travelling difficulties getting to and from their place of apprenticeship. They may be in a family where they haven’t got digital connectivity, or a laptop, so I think the circumstances and the environment that allow them to flourish and achieve their full potential are quite wide and that support, it’s not just their learning, it’s also creating the environment that allows them the tools to flourish and achieve their talent and their best.

Yes, and they need job coaching.

Yes. Well, that moves on to a different subject, of mentoring, which is a whole new—.

Yes, okay. Shall I move on to apprenticeship pathways, then? We know that Medr’s framework review is happening over the next three years. What’s the review going to actually achieve? How is it going to develop, and who's going to be part of that? Pryderi.

Pryderi.

It’s very much needed, the review—so, I welcome that first of all. I guess what we want at the end of it is a very flexible system whereby we have clear routes for people to follow, and pathways that you can—. Sometimes they can be really difficult to navigate, look really complicated for the individual and for the employers, so we need a clear pathway that’s not that complicated. The jumps, the gaps, between some of them—it’s really hard for people to get over level 3 to level 4, for example. There’s a huge gap there. Something needs to be done about that.

And as part of the review as well, what I’d like to end up with is to have some sort of a system where we have apprenticeships, but then we’re dynamic enough to be able to offer maybe micromodules in up-and-coming things that are changing. If you look at AI, for example, at the moment—we were discussing ChatGPT before the session started—it’s just landed and it’s changed the game quickly—like that. If we wait for data on all this, it’s too late. These things are too cumbersome, too slow, to be developed. What we need to be able to do is work with employers to develop those microcredentials that we can slot into the apprenticeships framework, going forward. So, I'm quite excited, really, by the review and, in terms of the role that we'd like as an RSP to feed into that with our connections to employers, the sectors that we're in, to feed into the review with those sorts of key messages.

[Inaudible.]—if that's all right. Ceri.

You mentioned the pathways, and I think it varies by sector. Some sectors have got quite clear pathways, others are much more difficult. I've mentioned the lack of degree apprenticeships in the region, but also junior apprenticeships as well. So, I think, as part of that review, having that clear pathway. The Welsh Government apprenticeship strategy talks about the importance of apprenticeships being flexible and the importance of upskilling and reskilling people. So, these frameworks are increasingly important to be able to achieve that.

One of the things that Medr said about junior apprenticeships is they're not really apprenticeships at all, so creating a pathway there might be very difficult. But, certainly, in my report 'Transitions to Employment', I said we needed better vertical integration. I got the impression from Medr—I think it was Medr—in our last evidence session that, actually, the flexibility in the system is quite helpful and they pushed back a little bit on that. So, are we able to achieve a clear progression route? And the other addendum to that is that, for as long as Welsh Government are funding degree apprenticeships fully, they won't grow. We don't really understand the cost of providing degree apprenticeships and also how we fund them. We haven't done any work on that, so, if we're going to achieve progression, would you agree that there needs to be some work in that regard?

Like I said, the whole concept of degree apprenticeships is what makes it an apprenticeship, as far as I'm aware, and, like I say, we don't have access to it in mid Wales, so we don't know. What's the role of the workplace in a degree apprenticeship? What's the role of the workplace provider? Because an apprenticeship should be supported—you should be reviewed, you should be mentored—and that doesn't seem to be the case across all degree apprenticeship levels. So, what is making it a degree apprenticeship, as opposed to just part-time learning? I'm not sure where that clarity is.

No, so we need a clear statement of intent on degree apprenticeships from the Welsh Government, I would say. Anyone else want to come in on that?

Just in terms of—. First of all, we welcome working with Medr on the review of the frameworks, because I think that is essential, because some of them are over a decade old, and I don't know what the uptake of a lot of them is. So, I think streamlining, and it goes back, then, to my earlier point about the economic strategy of the Government, because there should be a throughput that says, 'Right, this is how you're going to—', making sure that it's aligned, then, to where the impact and improvement's got to be. We have to have a process of supply and demand, so, if we're meeting and trying to grow industries, is there a pathway in that growth industry?

Is it also inclusive of SMEs? Because what tends to happen is we review with the large employers. When you look at the amount of apprenticeships in SMEs, because Wales is predominantly an SME nation, the SME will use that clear path of vertical of that apprenticeship and that guideline. Sometimes, the nature of business means that that apprenticeship will go sideways for six months, because the business need is there, before they come back. They might not complete all the modules in the apprenticeship, so, therefore, the validation and sign-off process becomes harder for them to complete their apprenticeship. I think the understanding of how you do that, then—. Is that a situation where perhaps the shared apprenticeship module will help that? Because then there are flexibilities for that apprentice—if that SME or that business isn't doing a certain module, they can go somewhere else to complete the module that allows them to gain their full apprenticeship. I think the review has to be quite in-depth and it has to be harsh, but with a focus on the economic plan of where are the jobs going to be.

So, with that in mind, there are already two apprenticeships running that do seem to link to levels 3, 4 and 5, and those are the degree apprenticeship in construction and the degree apprenticeship in rail engineering. They are happening at the moment, but we have very little information about how they're going, but they do seem to be test cases for the development of those degree apprenticeships, and enabling people to find work-related tasks in those areas shouldn't be difficult. So, are you aware of those and the progress being made in that area? Is anyone aware of what's happening there?

Who wants to take that? Owain.

I have—. Some of my staff are on that journey currently, and the funding is welcomed. It does give those people the right stepping stones. But I think that further education has got real challenges in that I've had to question, and other employers have questioned, the standard of delivery. My candidates are learning far more of a skill set from their peers within my company, and I think other companies are similar; they learn by that example more than they are able to gain from the college-side delivery. And I think it is a challenge. And I'm not being critical of the establishments; it's a challenge that they can't get the right calibre of staff to teach, and that goes even down to craft level, currently. I have an example where I have a need for plastering skills to be taught; the college I'm involved with currently, due to retirement and illness, can't provide a lecturer for that position. So, it's—

Just on that, are you referring to degree apprenticeships there, with your staff?

Yes, I'm referring to degree apprenticeships, and my employees have commented on their dissatisfaction with delivery, unfortunately. And we've been trying to work with the education establishment to see how we can improve that. I think industry, really, have got to look to assist the colleges, in possibly even seconding people to assist with the short-term problem.

That's an area that I think I'll go away and look at.

Hefin—. Hefin, could I just bring Jenny in on a supplementary on that point, please?

Okay.

So, does that mean that some of your staff should be doing a day a week in the college—the ones who are supervising your apprentices?

Some of my staff have actually been approached to see if they would, but the problem you've got is you've got your day-to-day crises and you've got to try and deliver for your clients. And I think that what would be useful to come out of this whole investigation by Medr is how can industry—? Rather than me being an over-critical friend, can I be a critical friend that actually wants to assist rather than point at you? And I think we have to get better engagement between industry and colleges on how can we get a solution to get output.

Thank you.

That very much echoes the data I gathered from the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses on this, and the engagement with employers still hasn't been cracked. I can see that Pryderi was nodding. Do you want to say anything, Pryderi?

No, I think that's pretty much covered. I'm in total agreement with that view.

Okay. So, that's a significant issue, Chair, that I think we need to look in depth at, but I think I'll stop there and give others a chance now.

Thank you, Hefin. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. If I could move to focus on barriers to accessing apprenticeships for learners, do you think, as it currently stands, that colleges and apprenticeship providers have enough access to learners pre 16?

Pre 16 is a topic that's often discussed, and, as a board member of the Construction Industry Training Board, it is a frustration of CITB, because its actual standing orders, as an organisation, don't fund school engagement. So, that, as far as construction, is left to industry.

There's a lot of duplication in the schools engagement market. When you're on construction frameworks, as a community benefit, you have to try and engage with schools and go to various activities. As a construction industry, we're all trying to replicate the same thing; there's duplication happening. A suggestion that I would have is—. There is a percentage within frameworks for community benefits. Rather than leave that with a particular company to engage with the schools, I think it would be a far better policy—. If there's £5,000 to go into a community benefit fund for a project, it would be better that that is put into a pot and there's a co-ordinated approach to school engagement, with a constant message that a sector can give to the 15 or 16-year-old to try and encourage them into our industry, rather than multiple companies going to different locations, and not always giving a consistent message.

So, do you think that there is appropriate access? Just to follow up on that, do you think that there is appropriate access, then, to schools?

I think that, since COVID as well, schools are not as readily available to engage as they used to be, and I think that there are barriers for us. Because they have to deliver their own curriculum, there are barriers for engagement with schools, yes.

Pryderi wants to come in.

If I just come in on the pre 16, I think we've had a fantastic example in a pilot here on Ynys Môn, where the RSP was able to engage with the local authority, Careers Wales, educational consortia and further education, and pull them all together into a pilot for pre 16. The national Curriculum for Wales and the careers and work experience emphasis within the new curriculum have really helped, because the school welcomed this connection to industry. Teachers could suddenly understand and see what the industry needs were. We were able to bring direct labour market intelligence into the school and just build that better connection. For our pre-16 students and children, they were able to see the whole range of options available to them.

So, it's a great pilot, and I'd welcome the committee to engage with us in the RSP north to learn a bit more about that, because it really did open doors and open the dialogue honestly with the young people as to what their options were. And I think that everyone engaged with that pilot, and it really has been a success.

So, isn't this highlighting a problem though, that there are pockets of good practice around Wales, but then there are areas where there is very bad practice, and there is no access to learners? So, learners aren't being provided with the full information that they need to be able to make a decision as to whether they want to go on to do A-levels, or sixth form, or to go on to university, or to stay and do an apprenticeship and learn a trade. Was it Ceri who wanted to— 

Leigh wanted to come in, and then Ceri.

I wanted to state, then, that there are a few—. The way that the funding system works, as you're aware, is that you get rewarded, effectively, as a school or a college for bums on seats. So, that makes it a competitive market, where the learner becomes perhaps not the primary person of importance. It's about getting the funding in and making sure that I've got enough seats to be able to deliver my organisation. So, that presents a challenge initially.

So, I think also, then, you've got to look—. And that's why we, as the Cardiff capital region, have gone for partnership to achieve prosperity, because we think that there is a partnership role here, and understanding the link between what an RSP and others, 16 and post 16, be it the role of Careers Wales—. I meet quite regularly with the chief executive of Careers Wales and I understand how their role and breadth of service works. Because I think it's unfair, with the amount of people that careers information, advice and guidance—CIAGs—and the awareness and knowledge that they have—. I think that there's a role for more partnership working between Careers Wales and industry, because we need to collaborate, not compete. I think that that mindset needs to shift, that we all need to achieve a common purpose in giving the best information to a learner, and make the learner central again, rather than what the economic impact of them to the organisation is.

So, I think that the learner needs to become the focus and, like I say, there are pockets of good examples. So, the Cardiff Commitment is a classic example. So, Estyn have been in and have done a review, and gave it really good feedback reports, et cetera. How often, or how many other authorities or regions look at that and say, 'Right, how can I learn from it, the best practice?' Whose role is it—is it Medr, is it the education department, is it Careers Wales—to share and learn that best practice and go, 'What can be replicated?' or 'Bits of it can be replicated'? I think that there's a partnership mindset needed more than a competitive mindset needed. And I think, who drives that? I will leave that up to you—the clever people who understand how this place works better than me.  

That partnership is exactly what we have in this pilot. We're actually running this over five of the local authorities now in north Wales. So, we are building on that pilot. But you are absolutely right: it has highlighted the need, but the RSP has been crucial in pulling those actors together to be that honest broker, to show people the various pathways that they have.

[Inaudible.]—

Hold on, Owain. I think that Ceri hasn't had a chance to speak on this section.

I think that the picture across mid Wales is very sporadic. It's really disappointing when you see some events that are arranged by local colleges and apprenticeships and then schools aren't attending or they're sending the wrong age group. So, you’ve got all that employer support and there’s no support from the schools. And then the schools will be saying, ‘Well, we can’t afford the buses’, or, ‘We can’t release the students because of the time.’ So, then you’re trying to get to the parents and doing factory visits and different things. So, access to that age group is definitely lacking.

And I think, across all our sectors, the importance of having independent careers advice came out as a real issue. And I think, even accessing knowledge about an apprenticeship, even the careers apprenticeship matching service—. I think I looked yesterday: were there 12 apprenticeships being advertised across the whole of Wales? And I think half of those were with one company. So, people in school are being told, if they want an apprenticeship, ‘Look at the Careers Wales apprenticeship matching service’, but employers or providers aren’t putting those opportunities up there, so it just makes the whole thing really difficult.

And the other one is work experience. We’re seeing fewer and fewer schools participating in a work experience programme, which is an incredibly important route for employers to recruit apprentices, and it’s so disappointing because it could be so valuable.

Luke.

If I can just give some positive examples from south-west Wales: Careers Wales have been organising a careers fair in Parc y Scarlets over the last decade or so. As a construction sector, it used to be that every company had a stall, and it used to be, ‘Who has got the sharpest and shiniest pencils to give away?’, which we found to be not the most productive. So, in recent years, through linking with the Construction Wales Innovation Centre and the University of Wales Trinity Saint David and using their simulation equipment, the young person can simulate driving a machine, cutting a piece of timber, painting. That's giving them a real idea of the skill set.

And moving and developing from there, for the young people that have shown an interest, when they come to the position of being 16 and leaving school, through funding from the CITB, there's an on-site hub being set up. The on-site hub gives young people 10 days of work experience, including health and safety. They are paid £100 per week for that work experience when they're ready to consider our industry. They're also given £150-worth of tools for the trade they're interested in. Over the last three years, 1,550 young people have had the opportunity of going through that programme. And that programme, as of today, has created 1,000 jobs, and those are jobs that have been tracked three months plus in employment.

It’s a scheme I’m very proud of, and I’m very proud to have been a lead in bringing that scheme to fruition. I think it’s a very good investment on the part of CITB, and it hasn’t drained Welsh Government of any funding, I’m glad to say. It’s something about which I would be delighted if Welsh Government would want to have more information on how that’s been put together and how it could be replicated for other sectors, potentially.

We'll certainly follow that up, if we may, Owain, with you. Luke.

What I’m hearing here then is that there are these pockets of good practice, we’ve got a willingness from industry to participate in these programmes to get access to learners, but we also have been discussing this for a number of years now. We’ve known that this has been a problem for a number of years, it just doesn’t seem that there’s anybody bringing things together.

So, whose role is it then to bring all of these people together to get that strategy in place, to get an understanding between schools and colleges about how we provide all that information to learners? Is it for Welsh Government, or is it somebody else who needs to get involved in that?

You can see in our example on Ynys Môn that it’s been the RSP pulling it together. It’s a very operational activity and maybe it’s not for the Welsh Government to do that, but as the role of the RSP is understanding the needs of the employers and understanding the needs of future employment as well, they’re very well placed to pull those actors together. That’s what we’ve felt. There are no hidden agendas in terms of, 'We need bums on seats in our school', and, 'Our FE institution needs pupils next year, or an intake'; it's just an honest conversation that we've been able to broker successfully. And, yes, as I said, we're going to roll that out over five of the local authorities in the north now as well.

What you've got there is an example of someone taking the bull by the horns and being innovative, but that doesn't mean that the governance and compliance is correct. And I think that's where your question is—it's in terms of where is the top table. When you have education and further education and Medr under two different ministerial portfolios, I think the conversation needs to be happening between them and saying, 'Right, how are we going to work together horizontally across ministerial portfolios for the benefit of the learner?' And I'll keep going back to it: it's about the learner. We have to take away certain things and remember what is the focus. It's about giving the learner journey, the learner outcome and the learner awareness of where it is. We can then implement, as the RSP, and co-ordinate and pull things together, but unless it's come and is visible—. Because, again, we would say, 'What is the common purpose that we're trying to work to here?' Understanding the roles and responsibilities, because there are multiple, multiple—. If I had to do a stakeholder engagement map of all the parties involved in what we're talking about today, then there probably isn't enough wall space in this room to draw it.

So, roles, responsibilities and common purposes are critical, so that we have visibility on who does what. And I think there's a mindset needed; we have to realise the size of it. Because if we get this right, if we get these apprenticeships right, and everything else right, we become then an attractive country to attract inward investment, because we'll have a cohesive partnership between industry and Government, and we'll have a cohesive plan that gives industries coming in a pathway of progression for their workforce—it's a continual workforce. So, I think there is a knitting together of the pieces to create that vision of where we're trying to get to.

I'm going to have to move it on, sorry, because time is nearly beating us. Was there anything really important you wanted to look at, or—?

We can go to further questions, Chair. That's fine.

Okay. Thank you, Luke. Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, panel, for joining us. I want to go into a little bit more depth on something that's been touched on in a series of questions by members of the committee about the economic needs. Leigh, you mentioned that it's about the learner, just in your last answer there, but if there isn't a job for that learner to go into, if the skills that they're learning through the apprentice scheme aren't then transferrable into the employment sphere, then the learner's missing out in that sense. So, how successful are apprenticeships in actually training and giving the right skills for the current economy, as Andrew touched on in his first answer, but also for those future opportunities, like you mentioned in the Celtic sea and other industries? Are we there? No.

In pockets, but not consistently across various sectors, because the economy drives certain things, so you have booms and drops in the economy. So, the creative sector in Wales has been really progressive in the last couple of years, and we've seen apprenticeships coming through there and going well, and the lessons learned through the academies there. That's going well. There are pockets going well.

If I look at construction, we know there's a wave coming again around the renewable industry. Are we ready for it? No. So, are we going to maximise it? Are there jobs available? Yes. But we haven't got a consistent and a cohesive plan. We've got pathways, we've got gaps, we've got best practice, we can do lessons learned. Is it consistent? The honest answer is 'no'. 

Okay. Owain, I saw you shaking your head as I—

Well, I'll just state some data from my own industry. I made the comment about the level 2 provision being taken away. That, I believe, has had the effect of achievement going from 75 per cent to 60 per cent, which is a negative. That's on the basis of apprentice numbers dropping by at least 25 per cent per annum recently.

So, we've got this gap, and we're not even keeping to the numbers we had two or three years ago. So, it's a wasted investment, because if you have 5,000 coming in as full-time learners into your system, only 800 of those are moving towards a level 3 apprenticeship, and only 60 per cent of those are achieving. If it's costing circa £25 million in public investment to bring those 5,000 into the system, they are then dropping to 800, and then you've got less than 500 who've got the level 3 bit of paper. That's going, in my crude arithmetic, from £5,000 per candidate at the start, to £50,000 per candidate cost at the end output. We've really seriously got to look, industry with the educationalists: is that best value for Wales and for those employing in Wales? The stats are there.

It varies, doesn't it, from sector to sector. That's a great example, I think. But just in terms of the individuals coming out, we've identified there are gaps in construction, for example, to 3 and 4; we've touched on that. But, yes, in terms of the individuals, you ask for value for money and is it working. It is giving us individuals when they come through that are generally good at working in industry, they are industry ready, they've been embedded, they've had great experiences quite often. Mentorship was mentioned earlier on as part of it. So, those are the sorts of learners that our employers are looking for, and are employable in the future as well, aren't they? I'm not convinced that that's always the case from maybe more traditional routes. People coming from our universities, for example, are maybe not so rounded in those employability skills, and that's one of the crucial messages from an economic need perspective—that it is churning out people who are industry employer ready, and that's really good.

Okay. So that's one of the challenges that I always bring forward, the training. How applicable is that training? So, someone going on to site on day one, and whatever industry that is, that they are able to assimilate into that industry as quickly as possible, so that the employer doesn't have to—. It's not seen as a barrier for the employer to think, ‘Actually, I'm not going to take them because the training that they're receiving isn't up to spec and I'll have to invest too much of my company's time in bringing them up to the further standard that's required.’ Is there a disconnect between the industry and the training there that makes it more difficult to meet the economic needs?

I think the pathways provide for that, don't they, but there is a gap in some of the pathways that we've identified. But on the whole, industry also needs to come to the table, and they do, don't they? We've got a number of employers around the table today. They come to the table, they see the value of this and invest in their people as well. I think, as an industry we do, and generally I think there's a commitment there from industry to see this succeed and to invest in people coming through.

Ceri. Oh, sorry.

Before you come in, Ceri, could I just ask Leigh?

Just to add one point to what you've just talked about. There's one word we haven't used anywhere in this session yet to date, which links industry to the learning, and that's ‘competencies’. We've talked about skills. One word we haven't mentioned today, and which is where you'll see that difference between the employer—. The competencies might not be right through the skills system at the moment. We've got to align skills and competencies to the employer's needs. So, competencies are something I think we've got to—. And I think National Training Federation Wales and ColegauCymru are looking into that, but I think that ‘competencies’ is a key word that seems to be missed in all the conversations around this.

That's a very succinct way of describing what I was trying to describe. Sorry, Ceri, back to you. 

And competencies are the underpinning of the whole apprenticeship programme, aren’t they? But I think, depending on the sectors, in something like engineering, there's a large amount of in-college work that's required for them to be able to get up to speed before they can add value to that company. But from a company perspective, apprenticeships are so incredibly valuable, aren't they? They're such an important way to address an ageing population and declining skills and providing that pipeline of future talents. The more we can do to embrace and encourage more young people to participate, the better, because the numbers are so low that are participating in apprenticeships, and they provide such a fantastic opportunity. I wish more and more people would do it.

Just an interesting point on that, then. Given the vacancies, let's call them, or skills gaps, do we actually have enough young people in Wales to actually fill these gaps? Leigh, you're shaking your head there. There's a finite amount of people in Wales to do these skills, so we're still going to be reliant on importing skills from elsewhere to deliver Celtic sea projects, construction projects, house building and all these things. So, how are we mitigating that, then, in this sort of apprenticeship? Some students will have to make the decision between university or apprenticeships, which is absolutely fine, but we still require skills from elsewhere. So, how are we—? I suppose the point I'm getting at for those employers is: is the apprenticeship the most attractive means for them to find the skills to develop, or to deliver on the projects that are forthcoming?

It's one part, isn't it? It's one part of the solution. Skills and recruitment challenges are incredibly difficult in Wales. We don't have enough people. What are we doing to attract more people into the region? What are we doing to encourage more people to stay in the region? And that's a much wider picture than just apprenticeships.

Okay. Thank you. I'm conscious of time, so, Chair, back to you.

Thank you very much, Sam. Hannah.

Diolch, Chair. You've touched on it in earlier responses, around the challenges that perhaps SMEs face in particular, or the obstacles—whether that's capacity or awareness about apprentices. You have touched on it, but is there any more that any of you can add to how those challenges could be addressed, who needs to do that, whose responsibility it is, and how do we encourage more employers to engage with amplified apprenticeships, ultimately?

I'll come in on that in terms of the picture in north Wales. We've just launched a north Wales skills portal, with the direct challenge of how do we demystify the complicated skills landscape for SMEs in Wales. So, there is one single portal, we're all buying into it as team north Wales, as it were, directing what's available, what pathways are available, and directing SMEs to that portal. So, it's a really good example, I think, of how the RSP has been able to pull that together. So, that's one example of success.

Who needs to be involved? We're also delivering the Business Wales service, and, as part of that, we have skills advisers who are engaging with SMEs across Wales, and, hopefully, able to point them in the right direction and tell them, demystify the routes and what's available. And people like the FSB are very much engaged with us here in north Wales. Obviously, I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I feel that, between the FSB, Business Wales, and the skills portal we've developed, we're trying to tackle this problem. But I totally see it and totally understand it, that for the SMEs in Wales, it is a complicated landscape.

Industry, for years, has said the simplicity needs to improve, because, at the moment, it's a very convoluted market, who to speak to, then they get sent to different people. So, I think whether that then becomes something new, to take the confusion out of the market and call it 'the apprenticeship advisory', or whatever, just something as simple as that. Because—

A single point of contact.

Yes, you just need a single point of contact. Because industry just—. In the end, they give up, and then they don't know where to go to.

I think the other thing we've also got to do, and they're co-ordination exercises. Because the RSPs will work with a multitude of businesses, of sectors, sizes, shapes, positions on the value chains—because I think their position on their value chain makes a difference as well, for economic growth and where they can step up value chains. But the one thing that we can't or don't get involved with is those large employers who've got economic contracts with Welsh Government. So, how you bring the economic contract companies, because they have one-to-one meetings with an account manager, so anything that we do as an RSP, very rarely—. We'll get them to sit on our sector groups, but in terms of that strategic planning, they'll say, 'Oh, yes, but we've got an economic contract with Welsh Government, and we feed our data into Welsh Government.' So, there's some co-ordination needed there as well, because we are primarily then left with SMEs, micro SMEs, medium-sized and regional SMEs. But the economic contract companies, we as an RSP—I'm not sure about the others, but I don't know what happens to the economic contract companies in the Cardiff capital region.

The backdrop seems to be, currently, that there have been cuts in apprenticeship funding. So, my counter argument to your question is that you're asking us how we can get more people involved in taking apprenticeships, but the truth is, in construction—these are ColegauCymru figures—there were 2,255 starts in 2022-23, and that's dropped to 1,690 starts in 2024-25, projected. So—

And that's because of funding.

That's because of funding. And I think that employers will look then, if there are cuts in funding, employers are looking for shorter duration training. There's an argument that some apprenticeship programmes are three years, but we need to look at reducing the length of the programme, taking some of the core competencies that should have been taught in schools and the more generalised curriculum out of these apprenticeships, focusing on the dexterous skills that some of these young people can thrive at and not so much the academic needs. It was interesting that the UK Government have announced recently that they are going to take the maths and English requirement out for those mature apprentices that are looking for opportunities, and possibly that's something that could be considered. So, it's very much a modularised building-block approach to training, maybe a good addition to current apprenticeship provision. 

Ceri, is there anything to add? 

Ceri, have you got—? 

Yes, I was just going to add if we want to increase that apprenticeship provision, we have to ensure that the budget is available to support those apprentices as well. 

Okay. Thank you, Hannah. Thank you very much for your evidence, everyone, this morning. It's been a bit like watching a game of tennis with the two colleagues on the screen and two in the room here, but we got through it and your evidence will greatly enhance, obviously, the inquiry into apprenticeships here in Wales that we are undertaking. A record will be sent to you of today's meeting for you to have a look at to correct any factual inaccuracies that you might think might appear, and thank you once again. We'll now go into private session. Are Members happy with that? Thank you.

The green dot has appeared; that tells us we're now in public session again. Good morning, Cabinet Secretary. Good morning, guests, who've come with you as witnesses, to support the evidence-gathering session on the apprenticeship inquiry that we're undertaking. For the record, I'll invite the guests to obviously introduce themselves and state their positions within the Welsh Government. I'll start with Rachel on the right and work across the table, and then we'll go into questions, if that's all right with everyone.

Hello, everyone. I'm Rachel Sanders, and I'm head of apprenticeships in Welsh Government.

Neil Surman. I head up the still relatively new skills division in Welsh Government.

And I'm Jo Salway. I'm the director for social partnership, employability and fair work.

Thank you. The evidence we've received so far indicates that there isn't a national framework to drive the apprenticeship programme. Witnesses have indicated that to be a deficit position to be in, because, obviously, you need a national overarching strategy. Could you comment on that? Is Welsh Government, Minister, thinking about developing that national strategy and bringing it forward, or do you believe that the pattern that you have at the moment for delivering apprenticeships, with the absence of that national strategy, is doing the job and there's no need for a national strategy?

Well, thank you for the question. Good morning to committee. Ministers, by whom I mean Jack Sargeant and Vikki Howells, are working really closely with stakeholders including Medr, regional skills partnerships, Qualifications Wales, employers, colleges and independent training providers to ensure that we do have a skills strategy that is fit for the future. I'm also really keen that we take into account developments that are happening on a UK level, including, for example, the planned UK Government's industrial strategy. And also, of course, we need to consider the work of Skills England, which has recently been established, and the plans, of course, for the UK Government's new growth and skills levy, which will replace the apprenticeship levy.

So, I think that there are lots of things all coming together at the moment that will allow us to take a fresh look at this. I know that this point has been a particular point of concern in relation to the vocational qualifications review. We did provide a response to that in April 2024, and we're working with colleges to ensure that our response does respond to the needs of learners and, of course, our changing economy as well. Speaking from my own portfolio perspective, when I speak to businesses, I'm really aware that we're in a very quickly evolving environment. We have some really exciting sectors that we're providing a particular spotlight on and a focus on, such as the creative industries, compound semiconductors, advanced manufacturing and so on, and we need to ensure that our approach to skills and apprenticeships is very much aligned to our key sectors that we've identified for growth as well.

Surely that emphasises the need for a national strategy to pull all that work together, then. So, there will be a national strategy coming forward. Did I understand that, or have I missed the point completely?

I think the question you raise is a very fair one, Chair. Certainly, what I hear when I—

My work is done here now. [Laughter.]

What I hear when I talk to employers and other stakeholders is that we have a strategy in place. We have lots of policy statements and strategies, we have a plan for employability and skills, we've got the apprenticeship policy statement, we've got our net-zero action plan. So, there are lots of strategies out there. The feedback that, certainly, I get, and I think consistently my colleagues get, is that perhaps the structures that we have underpinning those strategies are not working quite as we would wish. And so there is a job of work to do, alongside the rapidly-changing context that the Cabinet Secretary referred to. I think there is a job of work for us to do to look again at those strategies, and whether they are still fit for purpose, and underneath that, therefore, whether the kind of systems, structures, funding mechanisms we have in place to support our skills ambitions, including apprenticeships, are the right ones for the future. But now is the time to do that. Clearly, this is an issue that colleagues in the Westminster Government are wrestling with as well. Huge amounts of work are going on there to refresh the thinking about skills and apprenticeships. We are tracking that, trying to think about what it might mean for us in Wales. But certainly, the Minister, Jack Sergeant, is very keen, over the course of the next year or so, in my role, that I should be giving thought to what the future strategy for skills and apprenticeships should be, what that might look like at the end of the day. Clearly, there's lots of work to be done and the committee's work will be extremely helpful in informing some of what we do in that space, but it's rare that I come to committee with a sort of very open mind on these things. On this occasion, I'm not sure we have a clear answer for you, other than that we recognise there's work to do on this.

On the data—you did raise that, Cabinet Secretary, about the importance of data—another piece of evidence that has come forward from witnesses is the lack of national data on some of these key issues. Do you recognise that as being a deficient point that does need remedying, and will you be increasing your efforts to provide national data so that providers can actually manage what they’re providing to the economic plan that the Welsh Government is committed to?

I think there's always a need for more and better data. I would say that, in relation specifically to apprentices and the related provision in Wales, that will primarily be a matter for Medr moving forward, but, of course, Welsh Government works really closely with the Office for National Statistics on that kind of wider suite of employment data. And we had that very robust debate tabled by the Welsh Conservatives in the Senedd just last week that explored the role of the ONS and the statistics in relation to employment statistics and so on. So, I think that there's lots of work going on in that particular space, and I know that we're also consulting on our future approach to using data and information to support learning and improvement, and that includes a proposed 14-16 learner entitlement indicators framework. And as part of that consultation, then, we're proposing that the Welsh Government develops an indicator for the destinations of school leavers at 16. I think that will be incredibly helpful in understanding the other pathways that young people go down.

The other piece of evidence we've received is, obviously, this difficulty accessing 14 and 15-year-olds, from the college perspective, and helping them make the career choices post 16, then. Do you recognise that as an issue, and are you working with the schools, the secondary schools, and the colleges to break down the barriers so that there is that wealth of information and support given to the learner at that critical juncture where choices are being made?

Perhaps I'll ask officials to come in on some of the work that's currently taking place in relation to ensuring that providers have access to young people so that they can showcase the opportunities that are available through apprenticeships.

Yes, certainly. So, we're working very closely with Medr, who are primarily working on the ground with the different stakeholders—schools, colleges and everyone in tertiary education—as well as Careers Wales to provide the guidance and advice to young people. And we're aware that there is more work that needs to be done in this area, but we're working quite closely to improve that provision and to carry it forward and connect the dots, because we're aware that there are some gaps in the provision.

So, for clarity, Rachel, you do recognise that there are difficulties in that communication between the secondary schools and the colleges, and the access for the colleges to support the learners making their choices, and you are working on those problems?

So, we're working through Medr to improve communications. There are connections. It's not that there's this huge gap that's not being filled—there are connections, but we're aware that that can always be improved. And mainly now it's Medr's remit to work on this to improve that communication.

I will say as well, though, that we're placing more explicit expectations on schools to facilitate that access from providers to the learners who are aged 14 to 16. We are facilitating that through statutory guidance, and we published that statutory guidance in September, and that's part of the suite of guidance that sits alongside the curriculum, and it does set out some national expectations to help ensure that there is that consistent approach across all schools for this critical stage in learners’ education. And, of course, this is part of the learner entitlement. So, that's the learning that all learners in years 10 and 11 should benefit from through the curriculum, and it really includes the expectation that schools do provide those opportunities for those learners to understand the full suite of options that are available to them.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I have two supplementaries on this particular point. Luke first and then Hefin.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. To be fair, I think we can understand why schools are a bit protective of their students. In the previous session we had there was a discussion around how funding is decided based on how many people you have coming through to sixth form or otherwise. So, it strikes me that there's a need for a bit of cross-portfolio work here. Am I right in assuming that, that there needs to be conversations with the education department, with finance as well, to understand how exactly we can sort out that issue? So, the schools then become far more open to opening it up. Is that a fair assumption? And are those conversations happening?

I would say that both Ministers work really, really closely in relation to this particular agenda, so I have no doubt that those conversations are happening. At the end the day, the thing that really matters is ensuring that there's the right placement for the young person, whenever it is that they decide is the right time to leave school.

I mentioned the learner entitlement. Of course, that's got four main components, one of which is that post-16 planning, and all young people should have the opportunity to plan for what comes next and, in doing so, it's only right that they understand the full range of options so that they can choose the path that's right for them. Jo, did you want to come in?

Yes. We are joining up across the portfolios, and it's across schools, it's the tertiary education, and it's us within the skills area, and making all of those links through it. So, for example, Career Wales does a lot of work to support schools with the changes to the curriculum and particularly the work experience element of that. Then, obviously as well, Medr is now the organisation that holds the funding for all tertiary education. So, that's one of the things that we talk to them about, particularly that longer term vision of being a lot less divided by different types of provision post 16. So, it's part of that whole vision, but very much a work in progress at the moment, and, obviously, working specifically with colleagues in other departments about the implementation of the David report on careers advice.

I think it's important just to highlight, briefly, and I'm not expecting a response to this, Chair, that it is quite complicated issue, especially when you factor in, then, Welsh-medium education and the concerns that Welsh-medium education have around losing students to colleges where the Welsh education provision is probably not as good, or even in existence in some cases. Again, I think that opens up another can of worms, so I’m not expecting a response to that. I’ll hand back to you, Chair.

Thank you, Luke. Hefin.

I think my report was just referenced then. I know, in evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee, the Welsh Government told that committee that £1.5 million was being allocated to operate the recommendations of both the Sharron Lusher report and my report, but neither Sharron or I have been told what that money is going to be used for. The first I heard of it was in CYPE. So, can we have an outline? We both issued recommendations on access to schools. Can you outline what that money is being used for, and whether it will go to that purpose? That’s for officials, by the way.

Perhaps I need to write to Hefin on that particular point.

Okay, if you could write to us on that, Cabinet Secretary, we’d be grateful.

Yes. 

I think it is important to note that, if money has been allocated, it would be helpful for us to know what that purpose is. That would be really helpful.

I’m grateful for the commitment from the Cabinet Secretary to write to the committee. Jenny.

So, we’ve heard some good evidence about decluttering the landscape in terms of joining up the dots on education providers. And, I suppose, my concern is that this new body, Medr, is now coming in to review all apprenticeship frameworks over the next three years. And I just wonder how other stakeholders in this landscape are going to cope with that. You’ve got FE and university providers not knowing what is going to be required of them in the future, and you’ve got employers wondering what’s going to come out of the pipeline. So, I just wondered, Cabinet Secretary, how you’re streamlining that. How are we all going to cope with Medr throwing up all the pieces in the air over the next three years?

So, it is right that Medr intends to undertake a really comprehensive review of all of the frameworks, and that’s very much their responsibility. But, of course, we would want the review to include all of those parties who’ve got an interest. So, we know that they’ve given evidence to committee setting out what their approach might be, and that would include setting up a steering group consisting of sector experts, technical experts, industry bodies, and key partners such as Qualifications Wales, to help with the development of the frameworks. But I think that point about involving all partners with a relevant interest will be really important.

Okay. Meanwhile, inward investors are having to make decisions now about what they’re going to do in the next 12 months. And, certainly, one of the regional skills partnerships' chairs that we heard from earlier, Leigh Hughes, was saying that it is key that potential inward investors know that we’ve got that pipeline from the 14-year-olds right through to the qualified individuals who’ve got the skills that they need. So, I just wondered—. There is a disconnect here between a three-year review and reassuring employers and potential employers that we really have got that pipeline of skills that we need, with the country and the world moving at such a fast pace.

Yes, I think that being agile is really important, and there are some really good examples of colleges being able to adapt their offer very quickly in order to respond to the needs of business. And I was just talking to potential investors this morning, actually, and I was able to set out in really clear terms what the Welsh Government is doing in their particular area of interest, which is green skills and renewables. We’ve got some really good examples of Wales really training up young people to be right at the cutting edge of some of our renewable technology. So, all of this is happening now. The fact that there’s a review going on shouldn’t stymie or slow down any of the good work that’s happening in that particular space. It is important, I think, periodically, to have that really comprehensive review, whilst, at the same time, always remaining agile to the needs of industry.

It’s always been a common part of running the apprenticeship programme when we had it within Welsh Government as well, to have an annual programme of review, because it’s actually really important to make sure that the apprenticeships remain relevant to employers, attractive to people to go on to them. So, it has been something that we do as well, but it's one of the reasons that we have other funding streams for supporting businesses as well, because there's such a set of regulations around apprenticeships, developing frameworks does take time. So, that's why we have things like the flexible skills programme as well, which means that we can be much more agile in responding to shorter term needs that an apprenticeship can't always deliver in the timescales that we might need. 

Okay, so—

Can I just bring Luke in, please? He's got a supplementary on that point. 

Yes, sure.

Sorry for interrupting there, but I think that the points that Jenny is raising are really, really important, because we've had exchanges in the Chamber and outside the Chamber in terms of port readiness specifically and how we need to make those investments in order then to actually benefit from offshore wind and the things coming through the pipeline when it comes to renewable energy production. But we heard in the previous panel, then, when it comes to skills—. So, for example, apprenticeship pathways in steel, they are non-existent in Wales at the moment. There are a number of bodies operating within Wales that potentially could have a role here, and I'll declare an interest, Chair. Both the Cabinet Secretary and I sit on the transition board. But do you think that there's potentially more that the transition board can be doing around this reskilling agenda, around port readiness, around investment in assembly and capacity?

So, I think that there's a role for the transition board, but I think that there are a range of other partners who also have an important role in terms of ensuring that we are ready to maximise the impact and the opportunities of floating offshore wind. So, colleagues will be familiar with the oral statement that I made in the Senedd recently, setting out the task and finish group that we've set up to look specifically at the opportunities in the Celtic sea around offshore wind, both floating and fixed. And that does really bring together all partners who have skin in the game, if you like, in this space. So, we've got skills in there. So, there's a sector lead who then goes out and engages more widely on the skills piece, but the ports are also involved there. We've got representatives of the potential supply chain to make sure that that's ready to go. And the purpose of that group, really, is to set out that pathway for delivery. So, that's the space that we're in at the moment, making sure that each of those partners, including the port, knows the kind of investment that they need to make, and at what time, to drive forward and make what is a huge opportunity reality. 

So, I think that there's potentially a role for the transition board, but perhaps they wouldn't be the primary vehicle for that. I think that the work through the task and finish group is the one that has the wider partners involved in that space. But their view will be important. 

I think that the greatest concern is that other countries are already making the investments that are needed. Within industry—. I had a meeting yesterday, I had a meeting last week with industry on this, we've heard it again today, in a previous session. What's stopping us from getting on with this? We've had these conversations over a number of years now, surely we know where we need to start making those investments. There's an indication that UK Labour knew where some of those investments needed to be made when, in the enhanced deal for the Port Talbot steelworks, the provision for a plate steel mill was put in place. So, what are the barriers stopping us from just getting on with it?

So, I think it's really about a range of things needing to happen. So, investment in the port, for example, that's not going to happen overnight. None of this is going to happen overnight, but we are making progress, and I think that that's the key point, by bringing all of those partners together and giving confidence to everybody to move forward. So, these things are happening, they're in train now, and everyone's very serious about making this a success. So, I think that it is a really important opportunity, but, moving it back to skills, of course, the point here about taking such a direct interest from Government is about retaining as much value as we can here in Wales, and that value, really, is about ensuring those good, skilled jobs and opportunities and so on, for young people but also for people who have been affected by the transition in Tata as well. 

If we could come back to the principal question.

Okay. So, the policy landscape is reasonably clear. We've got some bold ambitions. I think, looking at it from the perspective of the learner, though, how—? We need to be agile, but we also need the learner to be able to see that, by going down path A, rather than path B, the outcome is going to be the sort of job that they're going to want to do for an extended period of their life. How are we ensuring that we're supporting learners to understand that the things that they used to train for probably are a saturated market, and that the opportunities of the future are really where they should be encouraged to go.

I think that there are a whole range of things that need to happen and different people who need to be engaged with this. So, just yesterday, I was talking to an apprentice—an incredibly impressive young woman—working in tech. And she was talking about, when she was thinking about her options, she was one of the only people within her friend group who was thinking about apprenticeships, and I asked why, and it was because her dad worked in tech, so, he understood how important apprenticeships were. And whilst her other friends were being pushed towards degrees, her family was very much about, ‘What are the opportunities within the apprenticeships sphere?' for this person, whereas her friends’ parents weren’t having those conversations.

And I think there’s still a lot of work to do there in terms of that parity of esteem. So, lots of the apprentices I’ve spoken to during this apprenticeship week have been talking about the lack of parity of esteem and so on. So, there’s definitely more work to do there. When you meet these apprentices, see the incredible work they’re doing and the exciting fields of work they’re in, and the incredible careers that they’ve got ahead of them, then it doesn’t make sense that there’s not that parity of esteem. So, there’s a lot of work to do there.

And then that point we were talking about earlier about access to young people, ensuring that they have the options available to them, and, of course, Careers Wales plays an important role. I don’t know if colleagues want to come in on the Careers Wales point.

Well, I think Careers Wales is absolutely central to all of this. I think we're in a very lucky position in Wales, because we have Careers Wales and we have a careers service. It's something that I think has been lost, not entirely, but largely, in England, certainly. So, we are one step ahead in thinking about not just our skills system, but about the information, guidance and support that learners need to access that system—the support that's available, the knowledge of the pathways, the qualifications that are accessible to them. All of that is crucial, clearly. 

Now, I'm not involved in education, but I know, however, that work experience is now a part of the new Curriculum for Wales, and that's clearly a welcome development as well. But, Careers Wales, my perception is, and Jo may take a different view—you've been working with them for longer than I have—that they are a very well-run and very well-led organisation, but perhaps are trying to do too much at the moment, often because we've asked it of them. They're an organisation we sometimes use to plug gaps and go, 'Perhaps Careers Wales could do something in that space.'

So, my division is obviously responsible for sponsoring Careers Wales. Over the next couple of months, on the way to the new financial year, certainly I and my team want to be working with Careers Wales colleagues to help shape their offer to make sure that it is properly prioritised, but also deliverable—securing that delivery for them and making the maximum impact in this regard and others. They're at the core of everything we try and do, and, as I say, sometimes, I think we ask a little too much of them, so, we'll be seeking to focus their efforts much more clearly in the coming year.

Okay, so—

Jenny, can I ask Hannah in? She wanted to ask a supplementary.

Thanks, Chair; thanks, Jenny. Just a very quick one. You mentioned Careers Wales and work experience, so, I do a democracy in action annual day in my constituency, aimed at year 10 students from secondary schools across the area, and during that they get to raise things that they think I should be raising or that they'd like to see. And one of the things that came up last year was around quality and access to work experience. So, not perhaps what we'd traditionally think of: that one week a year, when suddenly you're scrambling around trying to find a local employer that'll take you or you end up going to a friend of somebody's family or things like that, but actually over a longer term, so that it gives you the access to see what is available out there and what those opportunities are. Is that something that's on the Welsh Government's agenda?

I would say that it's already on the Careers Wales agenda as well. So, there's a world of difference between experience of work and work experience in the narrow sense that you've just described, and Careers Wales do a host of things in the experience-of-work space.

Just—I can't remember how long ago now—a month or so ago, in the Senedd here, we had a Careers Wales awards ceremony for businesses that work closely with schools, recognising their contribution and their support for schools and for learners in introducing them to a wide variety of experiences of work. Some young people spoke at that event, and they were inspirational in what they had to say about the opportunities that that had opened up for them—not specific job offers, but a whole new world of opportunities had opened up through their experience of working with these companies and understanding suddenly that they had a chance to go and work in creative design. One young lady wanted to be a doctor. All of that had come about through their direct engagement with schools, with their employers, facilitated by Careers Wales.

Okay, so, the last thing from me: Owain Jones, in our last session, said there's too much duplication in school engagement, and that what's needed is more connection between employers and schools to enable employers to interest people in their particular industry, and that there was potentially a need to allocate a sum of money out of the budget for community benefit, and, obviously, in relation to people with specific disabilities, I could see that that would be a very useful thing to do. But, post COVID, there's been limited connection between schools and employers, and I just wondered, briefly, if you can say how we could improve on that, because there's nothing like talking to the guy or the girl who's doing it already.

I think the change that's been made in the curriculum, moving towards the careers and work-related experiences, has been important in the sense of it no longer being just a case that once, when you're 15 or whatever, you spend one week in a business or in a work environment, perhaps in the public sector or wherever—it's very much more about embedding those opportunities to be in contact with people who are actually doing these jobs, and having that right throughout the school experience.

So, Careers Wales offers a facilitated database, called Education Business Exchange, and that lists local and national employers and alumni from a range of sectors who are interested in working with schools in order to develop exciting curriculum-enhancing programmes for pupils. And that's available to all secondary schools, but also to pupil-referral units and to special schools as well. And then, of course, we've got work going on through the Careers Wales quality award, which supports the implementation of the careers and work-related experiences right the way through the curriculum, and part of that work then again is about bringing employers into schools so that people can talk about their opportunities.

Another thing I'm really interested in is, when we use our Welsh Government investment, maximising opportunities there. So, just thinking about the Heads of the Valleys road and the investment that we've made through the mutual investment model, one of the stipulations within that was about community engagement, which would include school visits. So, lots of young children get the opportunity to have a really exciting day, seeing the giant diggers and thinking about what careers in construction and engineering potentially might look like as well. So, using our tools and maximising the value of the Welsh pound in that way through community benefits is also important, and, of course, it happens in the renewable sector a lot.

I don't want to get bogged down on this point, but, in our last evidence session, we had evidence given to us that, actually, the regional skills partnerships were unsighted on those economic contracts that the Welsh Government has with large contracts in particular, so, they weren't able to tailor their programmes accordingly, they weren't. I just draw your attention to that comment, because otherwise we're going to get stuck in the quagmire of time beating us. But that was a piece of evidence that we took, and it was interesting that you were highlighting that as a positive, whereas they were saying they were unsighted on it.

No, that's really helpful. I'll make sure that we rectify that.

Hefin had a supplementary, and then Luke.

No, my question's been asked now—I'm happy.

Okay, thank you. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think I'm in a similar position to Hefin. Most of the questions that I was going to ask have been taken up already. But it's been a really interesting conversation. If I can come back to the example you used, Cabinet Secretary, about that young woman going into an apprenticeship, I think that example actually crystallises what the problem with the current careers and work experience pathway is, doesn't it? It was a matter of she knew somebody who was already in that sector and that person was able to communicate how valuable apprenticeships are to them.

And just listening to the conversation or debate that has been happening in committee at the moment, it's on Careers Wales's agenda; we're having conversations with stakeholders around this. When are we going to move from conversation to actually just getting on with work that needs to happen? I mean, to be fair, Hefin David's report, which he published two years ago, touched on this. These are conversations that have happened for years, so, it might be on Careers Wales's agenda, but how far down the agenda is it? When are we actually going to get on with it?

Did you mean raising the profile of apprenticeships—

Connecting all the dots, yes. So, access to students so that they have the information around apprenticeships, ensuring that Careers Wales is doing the job that it needs to do in connecting those students with valuable work experience. I feel like we've just had conversation after conversation after conversation about the need to do something, but we haven't just done it.

So, I think some of the examples that I've given that have been happening recently, so, the education business exchange—I think that's really important—the really strong focus now that we're putting on things such as apprenticeship week, the foregrounding that we're putting on apprenticeships when we talk about individual sectors—I think all of that really does help in terms of raising the profile of apprenticeships.

But, ultimately, it is about having those conversations with young people at the earliest point, and I know that there's been some new offer in terms of the guidance and coaching interview to young people. So, that went live at the beginning of September of last year, and, to date, Careers Wales have provided guidance and coaching to 35 per cent of the current year 11 cohort, delivering more than 31,000 interactions with key stage 4 pupils, including nearly 9,000 interviews. So, the work is definitely happening in terms of those individual opportunities for guidance and coaching, which will include talking about the potential of apprenticeships for being the right choice for them.

I think, focusing on the work experience element of it, it was quite concerning to hear from the previous panel that fewer schools are getting involved in that work experience programme. So, clearly, there's something not quite working here. How do we address that?

Sorry, did you want to—?

So, I think there are schools that do this very, very well indeed, and then there are schools that don't do it as well, and I think there's that patchy provision. Obviously, the curriculum gives a framework to work in. I think you're absolutely right when you talk about joining up your dots and understanding why some things happen and why some don't. And I think it's one of the beauties of a nationwide careers service and an all-age careers service that Careers Wales has that engagement with employers on loads of different bases: so, they do work to get redundant people back into work, they're helping people find jobs, and that builds up a network and links, and it's really, really important. Neil was talking about the targeting and the focusing work to make sure that everyone is benefiting from those and that we make sure that the schools have that support to be able to make the links to employers to set up the work experience.

I think it's also very challenging, because young people receive information from so very many different sources. By its definition, it is fragmented. There's that extent to which we as parents choose whether we engage with a careers service interview, with the school open days, and that importance of, actually, parents knowing what's going on as well. But we've got to accept that there are multiple routes to help young people make those decisions and join up where we can, but also make sure that the information is actually out there.

And some of the work that Neil's team have done around net-zero action plans is really, really important in helping to understand what the future opportunities are, what the future careers are, and making sure that that information is widely available, which I think was something that you were referring to as well around offshore wind and understanding what those skills of the future are, but also understanding that some of those are skills that exist now, but will be used in different sectors. And the links between Careers Wales, schools and employers to actually drive some of those conversations about what those career opportunities are are really, really important.

But, again, I talked about the beauty of a national careers service and an all-age one, it gets us back to that problem about just how many different areas that we're trying to cover. And if we were here today having a different evidence-gathering session on a different area of Careers Wales's work, we'd be struggling with some of those dots not being joined up. I think they're some of the fundamental trade-offs on which, as Careers Wales looks at its future strategy, we need to support them. I also reiterate what Neil says about how timely this investigation is for the work that we're doing. 

Did you want to come in, sorry?

It was just to add to Jo's point about it's not just about the myriad of influences on young people that help them make these decisions. Certainly, the point, I think, was made yesterday—. I was attending a CBI people and skills forum meeting yesterday, and the point was, I think, made there and elsewhere that, for young people, it's one thing to present them with information about their options at 16 or whenever; it's quite another to expect them to have made up their minds at that age on what they want to do. So, presenting information and guidance about what is possible in terms of a future career and learning pathway isn't the same as influencing that young person to make that decision to go down that route. And that, I think, is where some of the fall-off comes.

So, we educate, we inform, we give guidance, but, ultimately, with all of those different influences on young people in particular, the decisions they make are not necessarily driven by the information they've been given. And somebody said in yesterday's event and in another recent event that young people who choose to go to university buy themselves an extra few years to make those decisions about what they want to do, and I think that's a fair point.

Yes, I take that point. I mean, I must have gone through a number of different jobs that I wanted to do; I wanted to be a marine biologist. Now look at me—what happened? 

I'm conscious of time, but I just want to touch on one other element in terms of the barriers for people who want to do apprenticeships. One thing that comes up on a regular basis is the cost of doing an apprenticeship, so whether that's actually getting to the place where the apprenticeship is—so, travel—or the actual wage that apprenticeships are on—so, the apprenticeship minimum wage. And when we were doing work, through my office, on the education maintenance allowance, that was something that consistently came up, that there were a number of students who were considering leaving their apprenticeship to work in somewhere like Tesco, which was actually offering a better wage. And you can see the appeal of that, but then, of course, that shows that—coming back to the point that Neil made—it's hard to get across to young people to think that far in advance about where they're going to end up.

So, in terms of the work that's being done by Government at the moment, and looking at the new apprenticeship programme through Medr, how does the cost of apprenticeships factor into that and how will the Government address that issue?

So, I think we need to look at a range of impacts that are affecting people when they make their choices, one of which will be the cost. And, when we talked to young people through the work that we did through the young person's guarantee, we had a national conversation, and, again, some of these same issues were coming up. And I know that another one is the cost of transport, for example. So, there are things that we need to do to explore what more we can do to help young people with the cost of apprenticeships. But I don't have any easy answers for that one today. Transport, as I say, was a big, key one. I don't know if officials have got any other—.

Just on the apprenticeship minimum wage, obviously, that's not something that the Welsh Government itself sets, but I know that Ministers have lobbied over some considerable time for changes in the minimum pay for apprentices. Because, clearly, it's going to be a driver for anybody—I would be making decisions on a very similar basis if I were in that position. And so, I think it is an issue. We, however, are not in a position to force that change.

Okay, Luke? Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair. Coming on to a point around economic needs, I'm just wondering if you could provide examples where the work of the regional skills partnerships feeds into the planning for tertiary education provision, and how that looks, to ensure that—. Sorry, Minister, go ahead—Cabinet Secretary.

I was just going to reflect that Jack Sargeant has been meeting with the chairs and the managers of the regional skills partnerships. So, that meeting took place just a couple of weeks ago, and he then was impressing upon them the need to focus on supporting jobs and green growth in the coming year, in line with the First Minister's priorities. But then, following that meeting, there'll be a joint meeting of the RSP managers alongside Welsh Government officials and representatives from Medr, on the nineteenth of this month, and they'll be agreeing that approach to joint working, aligned to the high-level partnership agreement document. And then, it's expected that, following that meeting, there will be some clear areas of delivery from RSPs to Medr for the coming 12 months. So, just to share that.

Okay. Thank you. So, how content are you and your department that the apprenticeships in Wales are delivering for the industries that are currently available—so, those industries that we have in Wales that are part of our economic fabric, those future economic opportunities that are on the horizon as well—and filling those skills gaps?

So, I do think that we have a really broad range of apprenticeships that do meet the needs of industry, and particularly in those sectors that we have identified as being particular areas for potential growth in future.

So, we have a range from fintech to engineering, to health and social care—all of the key sectors in both our high-growth economy, but then also the foundational economy. Speaking to people in business, they do tell me that they are pleased with the apprenticeship offer. Actually, it compares very favourably to that which is available over the border. So, businesses often sing the praises of the apprenticeship offer that we do have available here in Wales, but it’s really important that we keep up to date with their needs and understand their needs. So, that’s one of the reasons why Jack Sargeant is taking forward the green growth short-term review group, which is just ensuring that we are absolutely in that space of understanding what opportunities are coming in the next five to 10 years, and making sure that we have the right people available for those roles as well.

Because I asked the same question to the previous panel, and your answer contradicts their views on this. They think that it isn’t working, it’s very patchy. Owain gave an example of construction where that’s not where it needs to be for the workforce that we need to meet construction targets. So, is this a kind of, ‘Yes, we’re doing all right’, but the reality on the ground is actually far more stark? Or is this a recognition, is the Government recognising that, in construction—? And I gave examples in social care yesterday to the Minister, in the statement on apprenticeships, of another fall in apprenticeship numbers in health and social care and in construction. That doesn’t sound like things are going well, does it?

I think the offer that we have is comprehensive and it does look to meet the needs of specific sectors in Wales. Could we be doing more? Of course we could. Could we be offering a wider range of subjects? Potentially, we could as well.

Okay. So, it's not just on the wide range of subjects, those subjects that are already being offered are seeing a decrease in the take-up. So, it’s not about the breadth of the offer, it’s about young people going and taking up those opportunities. That’s where the fall down is. So, is this being a ‘Jack of all trades, master of none’ approach to apprenticeships, rather than having good-quality and high-attendance, high-subscription apprenticeships, which are actually churning out the workforce that we need to deliver on, housing targets that we need to deliver on, health and social care?

I think one of the challenges is how you balance the needs of so many different sectors, and there is a limit to how many we can deliver within the budgets that we’ve got. And then there is the question about how you determine how you use the funding that you’ve got and how you match that to the economic needs. It’s almost a harsh reality of Government that there’s never enough money to do everything that you would want, and it’s how you actually manage the things that you’ve got. I think there are lots of different issues within that.

We’ve talked a lot about attracting people in. It’s really important then, coming back to the questions about the review of the frameworks, that we need to know that those frameworks are the ones that employers need and want, and that we’re delivering the right apprenticeships. So, whilst that can be a disruptive thing to do, it’s actually really, really important to gather in the information.

Neil was talking earlier as well about the range of different strategies, but similarly we’ve got a range of different elements of what is a skills system. Are they all joined up as well as they need to be? Probably not. Neil’s referred to the fact that his skills division is new. Before that, we grouped employability and skills together; about a year, 18 months ago, we separated them out. And I’m very, very glad that we did that because there’s been a massive growth in employability programmes and close working with DWP. But at the same time, we’ve seen so many different developments in skills, which gives a real opportunity—working with England, who follow a lot of the same issues—to actually start biting off some of these things. Similarly, the establishment of Medr, that gives another opportunity, more people to be looking at things, different ways of working.

So, a lot of the issues that you’re talking about are absolutely there and are part of the things that we’re doing. So, how do we make sure that the data that we get at a national level drives the decisions that we need to take? How do we make sure that the contributions of RSPs actually lead to us being able to translate that into priorities to give to Medr, that Medr then can translate into funding methodologies, into distribution to partners? How do we make sure that the range of offers that we’ve got for supporting routes into employment are the right ones? That’s kind of where we are on that journey. And making sure that we do actually take all of that information and turn it into something that suits the economy and the learner.

Okay. Because a previous witness used a term that sums up my view on this in terms of the student, the apprentice, going in and being ready for work, in terms of ‘competency’. So, it's all well and good having the right skill set, but an employer is looking for someone who's competent to be able to deliver those skills, not necessarily on day one, but to integrate within the business. Are you content that the apprenticeships being delivered in Wales allow for that competency, so that employers are enthusiastic about it, thinking, 'Right, it's an economic benefit for me to bring in an apprentice, because they'll be ready to go on day 1 necessarily, they'll be able to bring the skill sets that are required, alongside the training'? Or are some businesses, specifically SME businesses, put off by the amount of work that they themselves will have to invest in an individual, not necessarily on the skills side, but on the competency side, to get them ready for the real world, the real working world, which is a different set-up to being in college, being in education?

Someone put it to me recently that soft skills, which are essentially what you're talking about, are essential skills, and that's absolutely the case. Again, reflecting on conversations this week with employers about apprenticeships, they were talking to me about how, when the cohort comes in, the first few months, the young people are communicating via their phones with each other, and sending each other messages rather than having conversations, because they're just not used to that working environment. But very quickly, with the right the support in the right working environment, they are able then to understand what working in a professional environment involves, and then develop skills, such as customer service skills, and so on—

Could I just quickly come back on that point, then?

I'm conscious of time. We've got two Members still to ask questions.

Whose role is that then? Is that the college's role in delivering the apprenticeship to bring those soft skills up, or is it the employer's role?

I think it's a combination, isn't it? So, the combination of—. Ideally, you would want the soft skills to be things that people develop throughout their lives before they start on an apprenticeship, but that's just not always going to be realistic, bearing in mind different life experiences that young people have, but then providing—. It is incumbent on the employer as well to provide a working environment that is supportive and that allows people to grow, and that was the big message I heard this week, about the personal growth that people have been making through their apprenticeships, alongside the technical skills and so on.

Sorry to have cut across you there. Thank you, Chair.

Before I introduce Hannah to ask her questions, I'll just put on the record this point that did come in the last evidence session. It wasn't necessarily about money, it was about being able to find the lecturers and the teachers to provide the courses as well, and that was very clear in some areas—plastering was an example that was given to us. I didn't hear that come out as a concern from the Government bench today in evidence back to us, so I'd be grateful if you could acknowledge that at some point, or maybe not acknowledge it and not find it a problem. But the evidence we took this morning clearly indicated it is a problem in some areas, rather than the money situation. Hannah.

I'll have a conversation with Jack about that, because I know that he does meet regularly with the Confederation of British Industry, Make UK, the Federation of Small Businesses and others, and to get their feedback on that will be helpful as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Hannah.

Thanks, Chair. We've heard quite a bit about all the different organisations, like Medr and Careers Wales, but what actual interaction and direct engagement does Welsh Government have with employers and businesses? And how do you make sure that the tertiary education sector is meeting the needs of industry, and how do you monitor and learn from that?

So, we have lots of interaction, both at ministerial and official level. Jack, as I mentioned, in his ministerial capacity, meets with representative bodies, such as the FSB, CBI and so on, and then we'll also be involved in some of the specific groups. Neil mentioned a CBI group that specifically looks at skills, which he attended yesterday. So, those discussions go on as well. And then, of course, we've got those short-term reviews, one of which is around green skills, and again that involves industry, to understand what their needs are and what their experiences are of what's on offer at the moment, and what we need to do differently in future. Those discussions are ongoing all the time. I meet businesses all the time now in this role, and always ask them, without fail, about apprenticeships.

Is there any formal mechanism as to how the Welsh Government monitors what the tertiary education sector is doing? Medr has the funding now, but is funded by the Welsh Government. So, how do we make sure that that money is, basically, serving the purpose that you want it to serve, essentially? I'm looking at you, Neil—old habits die hard. [Laughter.]

So, obviously, Medr has the formal regulatory function as well, and it's their responsibility, when we parcel up the money and give it to them, that they manage that responsibly and appropriately, which I'm sure they do.

In relation to apprenticeships, we've ring-fenced the apprenticeship budget for this year, and I think for next as well, because we are in that transition phase, and Medr, as a new organisation, is bedding in. I think both us and Medr colleagues would say that the relationship between us is already on a pretty sound basis, and probably improving as we go forward, as we learn more about what each other are doing. But on our role in relation to Medr—and it's the Minister for Further and Higher Education who has the formal sponsorship responsibility for Medr—our role is to monitor and oversee what they do without trying to micromanage, and in that respect, we have the normal mechanisms in place. So, in fact, just a couple of weeks ago, I was representing my Minister at the quarterly review meeting with Medr and the Minister for Further and Higher Education. So, we have those formal mechanisms in place, there are well-established sponsorship arrangements for all arm's-length bodies, including Medr, and we operate through that sort of lens.

But in relation to apprenticeships in particular, given that that's my main interest and focus, as I say, we have a good set of relationships. The senior team in Medr responsible for apprenticeships, I meet with very frequently, every fortnight. In fact, we've got another meeting on Friday this week. So, we're in touch on a very regular basis and there are those formal monitoring arrangements in place as well, to sit on top of that.

Thank you. We’ve heard quite a bit through this inquiry by the committee about the challenges that perhaps smaller businesses may face in terms of taking on apprentices, whether that's around their own administrative capacity or just not really knowing where to go, or lack of awareness about the benefits. Whose responsibility do you think it is to address those challenges? Is it for Welsh Government or is it for other organisations?

I think that one way in which we're already trying to address that is through the shared apprenticeships, which are now available right across Wales in various sectors, including engineering, creative and digital media, technical theatre and community sports. They support take-up for SMEs that are new to apprenticeships, which I think is good because I know that can be quite a big step in terms of taking on an apprentice. But also they're available in sectors with low numbers of apprentices as well. Particularly these apprenticeships provide a sheltered and supported employment environment for people with additional learning needs, which again is really important in making sure that there are apprenticeship opportunities available for everybody. So, I think that's just a good example of how we're trying to make apprenticeships as easy as possible for SMEs who are considering potentially dipping their toe in this for the first time. 

Just one final question from me, because I know we are pressed for time. You touched on earlier something that was outwith the gift of the Welsh Government with the apprenticeship rate. And this is just something that I picked up kind of anecdotally through my own work, but the flip side of encouraging different businesses to take on apprenticeships is ensuring that they are actually proper apprenticeships. So, what are the challenges around perhaps—? I'm going to have to diplomatically word this. Some employers may badge something as an apprenticeship so that they can pay the lower rate of pay. How do we safeguard against that?

We've got comprehensive frameworks in place for all apprenticeships, which work alongside our team that analyse NOS, the national occupational standards. And it's very comprehensive, there’s a lot of work that is constantly reviewed and updated to feed into the frameworks, all corresponding with Medr obviously now, because the frameworks are Medr's responsibility. And these ensure that the standards of the apprenticeships that are provided are relevant and are appropriate for the work that needs to be done.

Hefin, final section.

Yes, the questions I was going to ask have largely been resolved, so I've got a couple of other questions I'd like to raise, if that's okay. First of all, is there an appetite for a national job coaching service for students with additional learning needs?

A job coaching service?

Yes. 

Did I hear right? I was just checking if I heard you right. It was a national job coaching service.

Yes, for people with additional learning needs.

Is that something Jack's been looking at?

It's not something we're looking at at the moment, but certainly something I think we should look at as part of the work we'll be doing to refresh our approach to skills generally. There are clearly all manner of challenges for people from protected characteristics groups in accessing lots of different forms of learning—apprenticeships possibly more so than others. So, certainly that's something that I would like to think about in terms of the broader skills strategy going forward.

Okay. Just to say Jack Sargeant has visited the now-finished project Engage to Change at Cardiff University who were doing exactly that. Some funding with regard to that would be very welcome.

The Minister was very impressed by the work going on there.

Okay. What is the strategy for degree apprenticeships? The Welsh Government can't keep funding degree apprenticeships and expect an expansion. We don't really understand the cost and how they're paid for. What is the wider strategy and plan for degree apprenticeships?

The funding comes, clearly, through the employer and through Medr. The employer pays the employment costs and Medr fund the tuition fee costs; they're fully covered. The budget for this year and for next is, from memory, about £9.5 million; I'd have to check that. So, the funding is there, it's run through Medr. I know because I happened to have been glancing at Universities Wales's evidence submission to the committee before coming down this morning. Clearly, they would like to see an expansion of degree apprenticeships, but there are challenges in that, not least cost. But it's part of what we and Medr will be looking at in terms of our future skills strategy, and the priorities that we will be giving Medr at a national strategic level.

Whether or not degree apprenticeships ought to grow, I think there are two issues. One is whether or not we need more of the same types of degree apprenticeships, and whether there needs to be more degree apprenticeships frameworks made available. I know Universities Wales gave a rather unflattering comparison with the number of frameworks available in England, but I'm not sure all of those would necessarily cut muster in terms of their contribution to the economy. However, it is an area that, again, as part of our wider thinking about skills and development going forward, we'll need to consider.

Is there an appetite to look at how degree apprenticeships are paid for—grasp that nettle—and look at parity with academic degrees? 

It's not something we've looked at so far. I suspect it will come up, though, as we take the work forward. 

Okay. And finally on the apprenticeship levy, what conversations—? I think it's Jack to have these conversations, so it's really not fair of me to ask Rebecca this question. But on the apprenticeship levy, what conversation has been had with the UK Government about resolving this difficult issue, because effectively in Wales it's just a tax? 

I know there are lots of discussions ongoing with our colleagues in England. Jack himself is having some conversations, as well as us as officials. We're in regular contact with Skills England and my counterparts in the UK Government. It is a very complex situation, as you said, and it is viewed here essentially just as a tax, and a lot of employers are very unhappy about the situation. We are doing everything we can to understand the changes that are happening in England, whilst also balancing it with the fact that we have a priority here in Wales to ensure that the money is spent appropriately. And I think the system that we have currently is focused on doing that. 

Now, that's not to say that we're not listening and open to adaptations, to change and to try and improve the system, absolutely, and that's why we're having all of these discussions. But what we're not wanting to do is just jump on the bandwagon straight away because somebody else is doing something different. We need to evaluate, we need to understand, we need to make sure that whatever we do has the appropriate effects and outcomes at the end.

One of the things that we've had from Medr and we've also had in writing from the Welsh Government, when I think Jeremy Miles was the Minister, is that we don't really know how much money comes back through Barnett via the apprenticeship levy. Is that still the case and have you done any further investigation into that?

That is still the case, as far as I'm aware. 

Yes. 

Okay, so that's deeply unsatisfactory, isn't it? 

There are a number of issues there. We don't know altogether how much is raised through the levy. We certainly don't know how much individual Welsh employers pay into the levy. What that then means in terms of spending is that comparable spending programmes in England, which drive—I'm sorry, I'm saying this in front of the former finance Minister—[Laughter.]—the consequentials that we receive, is clearly another issue again, and a key issue in that, presumably, would be whether or not the Treasury releases all of the money it gets in through the levy tax in a form of a comparable spend in England that we benefit from through consequentials. So, no, we don't know how much it is, and tracking it through the system at this point I suspect would be impossible. 

Yes, and I'm not blaming you for that, but it is an extraordinary situation to be in, isn't it? 

Thank you, Hefin. Just one brief point as we've got about 10 seconds. Do you see that there could be duplication between you and Medr? Because you've both got a head of apprenticeships, for example. I think, Rachel, you're the head of apprenticeships in the Welsh Government.

I am, yes. My counterpart is also called 'head of apprenticeships' in Medr, but we do have very different roles, and we do look at very different things. So, Medr is focused specifically on the delivery of the apprenticeship programme. And internally now in Welsh Government, what we are doing is spearheading all of the policy and the legislation that feeds into that delivery. So, we're helping to guide Medr in the way that they should be delivering, as well as creating the levers that enable them to deliver as they want to.

Thank you for that explanation, Rachel. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your evidence, and your officials as well, this morning. A record will be sent to you at the conclusion of the meeting, when it's ready to be sent over. Please have a look at it, and if there are any concerns, please raise them with us. Thank you for your evidence.

We'll now move to take note of the papers that are before us. Everyone happy with the papers that are before us? Yes.

Therefore, can I have a mover to move into private session? A seconder? We move into private session. Thank you.