National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to today’s meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? No.

We'll now move on to agenda item 2, which is the first evidence session for our inquiry. I'm very pleased to welcome, online, Siôn Amlyn, policy and casework official, National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers; Ioan Rhys Jones, general secretary—sorry about my Welsh—Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru; and Mary van den Heuvel, senior Wales policy officer, National Education Union.

So, I'll now start, and I'll take the first set of questions. My first question is for the NEU. Your written evidence says that you're deeply concerned by the levels of participation amongst learners in post 16 in Wales. Could you expand on what the causes of your deep concern are, and what do you think can be done to address them?

Diolch. First of all, I need to declare that I'm a member of the Wales committee for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and also I was co-opted for a couple of years to Careers Wales. It's deeply concerning, isn't it, when you look? There have been various reports that suggest that there are fewer young people participating either in employment, education or training at post 16, particularly, obviously, at post 18 in Wales. I don't think that we know the causes of that. There are lots of questions, and I'm sure that's why you want to get to the bottom of this today. We're obviously going to look at a range of factors, including access to education for those young people who are either by virtue of being from a disadvantaged group or that they are disabled young people are more likely to be NEET—that's not in employment, education or training. So, I think there are a lot of questions today that hopefully we'll explore. But accessibility also includes transport—can young people get to the right place? And, obviously, it's really important to look at whether there are options available for every young person to encourage them to stay in school or college.

Thank you. My next question is for NASUWT. In your written submission, you state that the quality and nature of information provided to learners is varied. Why do you think this is, and what is the impact of this on learners when making decisions about their options after year 11?

The variance tends to be related to demography and geography, in the sense that there's a difference or a variance in the information provided according to the geographical location, primarily because, obviously, in the more populous areas of the country, the range of options available in terms of post-16 provision is all the more abundant than in rural areas. And so, associated with that abundance of opportunities, whether they be further education colleges, tertiary colleges or, I'll say, traditional sixth-form provision within secondary schools, you then have more support and information provided by the various bodies who provide this information, be it in-house or in-school careers advice or from outside agencies.

And then conversely, in the rural areas, because of the, not scarcity, but because there's a narrower range of provision naturally, because they're less populous areas, with fewer industries and so on and so forth that would provide the experience, the work experience and the options thereof to move forward, then you naturally get this variance in provision and support in terms of what choices there are post 16. And then the choices themselves, obviously, vary according to demography, because obviously the more populous the area, the more choices there are in terms of what you can attend, and, conversely, the fewer choices there are, the more rural the area is. You may have only one secondary school, or maybe there's one tertiary college that provides for a cluster of secondary schools and what not.

Thank you. Statistics provided to us from Parentkind show that 39 per cent of parents in Wales with a young person in secondary or post-16 education agree that their child's school or college helps them to explore a broad range of career possibilities. This is compared to 46 per cent of parents in England, 49 per cent of parents in Scotland, and 53 per cent of parents in Northern Ireland. Why do you think the figure is much lower in Wales than other parts of the UK? I'll open that question to anyone. Mary.

Yes, obviously it's really difficult to comment on other parts of the UK, but I think that there's definitely more that we could do to support careers advice, isn't there? Our members tell us that there used to be a much better system in terms of Careers Wales supporting schools with work experience, so we've definitely got to look at that in terms of the way that Careers Wales has pulled back from that. Obviously there are funding issues, but from a schools' perspective, they're not necessarily the experts at making sure that young people have those work experiences. It's really about the support that's there, isn't it?

Did anybody else want to—?

Thank you. And my final question: what would your ideal model of the careers advice for pupils in schools and colleges look like, and do you think there's an age that careers advice should start? I'll open that to everyone again. Yes, Mary.

So, it's got to be really clear that we're encouraging children and young people to understand the jobs market, because, at the moment, the figures suggest that, at 24, we've got the highest number of not in education, employment and training for young people, apart from the disabled young people, which I'm sure we'll get to. But at 24, there's 20 per cent of young people who are NEET. So, I think it's worth asking the question: young people leaving school, what sort of jobs are they going into? Are they getting that trade union education so that they know what good jobs look like and how to join a trade union? How do we make sure there's secure employment there, and that we're not encouraging where children and young people don't want to go—we're not encouraging people into insecure work simply because it is work? Because then we might be increasing the number of young people who are NEET at the age of 24, and where it seems possible that we aren't leaving open that adult education so that it's really easy to go back into education. I think that's really important. So, from our perspective, it would be looking at the types of jobs that young people are doing, and I don't know if we've got that information.

Okay, thank you. 

Thank you. Carolyn, please.

I think the questions arise because, very often, children start to think about their careers when they're looking at their choices for GCSEs. So, we were thinking—. And teachers, especially a teacher that maybe a child, a younger child, at primary school level, is attached to—in a way, they see them as their main contact at school, don't they; they're so influential. Or parents—very often, parents might direct a child into a career. So, that's why we were asking the question, really. Do you think, maybe earlier than GCSE level, advice should be given to children maybe—I know teachers are very busy, but through schools? Because they're very often that contact. If there's a careers adviser in school, they might not know about them or go to them; it's that trusted person that's giving them that educational time that they build that relationship with, or their parents—that seems to be the way forward at the moment. That's what we're hearing. So, I think that's why we were asking that question.

The question is, of course, is it direct career advice that is needed, or do we introduce, in primary schools, the practice of having various speakers come in? I'm sure various people working in factories, engineers, policemen, come in and have a discussion with the children. It's not necessarily career-based advice, is it? But I think the world of work is something that perhaps they do need to be introduced to earlier than secondary school, but not specifically for themselves.

If I can add onto that as well, should careers advice be a bolt-on, a tag-on thing that's stuck on extra, or should it be intrinsic to the Curriculum for Wales, and should be part of the weave, as Ioan was saying? I know in north-east Wales, for example, Airbus is a massive employer there, and Airbus are constantly in and out of schools doing various things, not necessarily career related, but they're there, they're physically there, and therefore they're visual and they're seen as—or that kind of career or the world of work is seen as—a visible thing from early on in areas. And I know it's the same elsewhere in the country. So, rather than careers advice be something you stick on as an extra thing when they're doing their choices, as it is now, possibly, or as it used to be, perhaps it should be intrinsically woven into the fabric of the curriculum.

Thank you. We'll now move on to some questions from Natasha, please.

Thank you so much, Chair. Good morning, everyone. My first couple of questions are going to be targeted at Mr Amlyn, and I hope that's okay. Your paper says that the schools with six forms will predominantly promote their own subjects over FE establishments, so to retain learners and therefore retain the associated finance that comes with it. So, how do you feel that schools can be encouraged to put their pupils' interests above their own?

It's a very good question. It's a reflection of the state of affairs in terms of finance in schools in Wales, isn't it? And as Ioan said earlier on in this meeting, the number of pupils, the bums on seats, essentially, dictates the budget of the school, and there is pressure on teachers from up above to ensure that pupil numbers don't fall. So, teachers will naturally do their best, especially at year 11, six-form boundaries, to try and retain as many pupils as possible. And it's done in a positive way, in the sense that the courses of the school—the A-level courses and whatnot of the school—are promoted and are shown to be a useful stepping-stone to higher education or training or whatever else. But that's not to say that these schools, because of the self-beneficial nature of retaining kids—it doesn't mean they don't engage with FE colleges and tertiary centres, because they do. FE colleges and tertiary institutions do have a foothold in these schools, they do come in and do give their presentations and show the wide range.

As I mentioned earlier, what schools do also to counter—not to counter, but to try and give a wider range to learners and keep them on site, as it were, is to collaborate with other schools nearby, so that between maybe three or four secondary schools close together, the A-level provision and other course provision they have is as wide as possible, and the commute is as small as possible.

Can you confidently say that there is equality in this belief and, I should say, can-do attitude, when it comes to that collaboration? Because the frustration I have is that I've actually gone to a lot of schools, I've visited colleges and, quite frankly, there isn't that desire for many schools to let their students go to colleges, because they do feel—. And even some children—and I'll be honest with you, I was one of them; I was never put in the direction of college. I was very much focused and pushed towards continuing my A-levels, staying in school, being there and present, and I feel that a lot of children are missing out on some great opportunities to potentially learn how to become a mechanic, a beautician et cetera, and are being taken away from other vocational subjects because the schools just want to retain them for the numbers.

Yes, absolutely. Whilst you're in your school, it's in your local area, the provisions are there, the travel element of it is well known and everybody is used to it. So, to move to an FE college or similar provision will invariably involve further distance to travel, a longer distance to travel, and a change in the dynamics of getting to that place, staying in that place and so on and so forth. So, that can be a barrier, and it varies, obviously, across the country, as I've said many times. It can be a barrier to some pupils who are making a decision based on certain factors, if the decision they have is, 'Well, I can stay in my local school 3 miles away, or I can travel every day on the 6 o'clock bus in the morning to the FE college 20 miles away; I know what choice I'm going to make.' But, it is a shame, I agree with you, that our schools are unable to offer the courses to be a mechanic or a beautician or whatever. They used to—I remember them—but, of course, it's shrinking budgets. Shrinking budgets mean the very first courses to go are the ones with the least number of pupils attendant, and they invariably are sixth-form courses. So, unfortunately, it is a reflection of the funding in schools these days, unfortunately.

Okay. Thank you for answering the question. So, just for my own knowledge—and I hope you don't mind; I will come back to the questioning area that we want to focus on as well—and I appreciate that, yes, and I can put my hands up and say that I'd probably be one of those lazy students as well at that age, not wanting to travel the extra 6 miles to go to a college when my school is down the road, but we were just talking about education maintenance allowance yesterday, and that's an incentive for young people to get on the bus, to be able to make their way to that college, to be able to do that. Is that still not enough? Is that not deemed to be enough for children, or young people, to want to make their way to college, even by having that financial incentive to get there, even regardless of the transport measures they may need to embark upon to get there to do a course that they may actually really enjoy?

To be fair with you, we haven't got the data to comment either way on that, but, clearly, that is an incentive. What it might be interesting to look at is whether there are any cohorts of pupils who miss out or fall through the gaps. I don't have the answer. But, you are right: you would expect that to be the incentive. The cynic might reflect your comment there, that, like I said, given the choice of travelling 3 miles or 20 miles, 'What are you going to do?' But, to be blunt with your question, we haven't got the data to explain that.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. And do you think that having an equivalent to the Baker clause in England here in Wales would help address the issue of access to pupils here in schools?

Good question. I haven't got the information to think of that either, to be honest.

Not a problem. If it's okay with you, if you have a think about it and write to us as a committee, I think that would be really appreciated.

Sure. Yes. 

Perfect. So, this question's for everybody—I hope that's all right: Gower College Swansea has told us that senior leaders in schools with small sixth forms feel under particular pressure to secure enrolments. Is this something that you, perhaps, recognise in your particular lines of work, and how do you think that impacts on the senior leaders in schools?

So, what factors do you think we need to consider?

In what way now?

You just mentioned that, when it comes to Welsh language schools, there are certain factors that need to be consider to look at development. What exactly—?

Oh, all right, as far as—

Thank you very much for that.

I'm really sorry, as I'm so conscious of time, could I bring Cefin in with his questions now while we're on this subject, because it's so interesting? I know you have the questions around Welsh-medium education.

From our perspective, we agree that there is an issue. I think it's really important that we have a workforce plan that addresses this. When we had an earlier draft of the Welsh language and education Bill, we surveyed our members, and even those members who were really confident fluent Welsh speakers wanted more support to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. It's really important that that's available. And then I think what we're talking about fundamentally today is that there's a market and that market isn't working. I think it's really important that we don't create more of a market but that we look at every individual child and how they can fulfil their potential. That's what our members are there for. That's why they're teaching and lecturing and supporting young people, because they want them to be able to fulfil their potential. So, we've got to make sure that the range of pathways is there and that everybody is enabled to be able to do them.

Thank you for raising the matter of a workforce plan. That'll be my final question, Mary, but I'll come back to that. 

I know you've got a workforce plan question, but I think it's another instance where we can talk about the workforce plan, to be honest, because we've got to really know what we've got and be able to support the workforce to deliver as much Welsh language provision as possible to enable those choices for those learners. But what we must do as well is recognise that there will be teachers and lecturers who have got really deep subject knowledge that we don't want to lose in enabling people to be able to learn through the medium of Welsh, so that we're equipping the workforce as much as possible to ensure that they've got the available training and support—and we didn't mention training and support and careers. I think that professional learning pathways are really important for the workforce. And, again, some of those things come back to funding, don't they? So, funding for the sector—we don't know what Medr will exactly do yet, but there are opportunities and there are risks.

Anybody else very quickly?

Very quickly. It's noteworthy to say that the Welsh language Bill makes no mention of the workforce. And finally, imagine the old days, local education in your school up to form six level, a wide range of subjects.

Very quickly. We're so short on time.

It's about a range of opportunities for the workforce, isn't it, to enable the aspirations in the Welsh language and education Bill; it's about ensuring that the workforce have those opportunities and are enabled to make sure that they are able to upskill themselves in terms of being able to provide Welsh-medium provision. And like I said, I think that over half of our members who said that they were fluent Welsh speakers wanted more support. So, it's really important that it's there at every level.

Thank you. We're going to have to move on because we're so short on time. I have a question. If you could be as concise as possible with your answers, because I know that Carolyn's got questions that she's desperate to ask as well. How well do you think that the specific needs of young people with ALN are taken into account when considering what their options are after year 11, both in terms of what they would like to do as well as extra support to be put in place to keep their options open? As concise as possible, please.

Well, it's obviously not sufficient, and I think it's part of the lack of finance in the system, isn't it? I wouldn't want to differentiate, and perhaps Mary will have more to say, because I know she's been discussing that in far greater detail than myself. But it isn't sufficient, obviously.

It's definitely not sufficient. I'm trying to work out how to answer it really briefly. The statistics are really stark, aren't they, for young people with additional learning needs, and they coincide particularly with the introduction of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. Pushing down the responsibilities to schools and colleges to support young people without the funding and the training and the support to do that seems to definitely be correlating with those young people not being in education, employment or training. That appears to be the correlation. The statistics are horrible. I think it's 40 per cent of young people in your 19 to 24 bracket, and I think there's something there for the Welsh Government. They're obviously looking at the ALN code, but as a disabled person, I find it chilling.

Thank you for your answer, we appreciate it. Carolyn, please.

Thank you. An Estyn report found that where schools with sixth forms do allow representatives into schools to meet with learners, this is sometimes restricted to specific groups of learners within the school who are unlikely to progress into the sixth form. How do you respond to Estyn’s findings? Does this create a two-tier system based on perceived academic ability? And do you believe this creates the wrong message for learners as well, who then might think, if they go down the college route, it's not so academic, so they really must go through the sixth form? So, just your thoughts on that, please.

It's going to vary, isn't it, across Wales. Because as we've already discussed, some local authorities don't have that school sixth-form provision, so there is going to be variation across Wales. Sorry, Ioan—you were about to speak.

It's quite okay. The point I was going to make—. Yes and yes. And with reference to my previous answer, there is a specific cohort that they've developed links with from year 10 onwards, and it's going to be very difficult to change that mindset. There are some authorities with a further ed college but there are still one or two sixth-form provisions there, and they are supposed to work in collaboration. I can think of an authority not far from where I live. But what we've got is a two-tier system. We need to find a way of getting rid of that two-tier system, but making sure that the finance is in place and that all aspects are considered, including the linguistic aspect.

Schools, and there are many of them, that are 11 to 16 obviously aren't precious about that because they don't have a sixth form to populate. The scenario described here does exist, but it's a natural consequence of the fact that schools tend to only be able to provide academic courses in A-level because for the practical courses—the engineering, the beautician courses—they're unable to afford the equipment to run the course. So, there is a natural tendency that has evolved over time that the practical hands-on courses are taken up by the FE institutions, whereas the academic stuff is held on to by the schools. I think it's more of a natural progression to this kind of scenario, rather than any deliberate intent on behalf of the school. However, of course, retaining your sixth-form pupils does have a positive effect in terms of the school's budget.

Thank you. Siôn, your paper says that there is stronger engagement between FE colleges and employers than between schools and employers. Why do think this is, and how can better working between schools and colleges and employers be encouraged?

It's normally the case that the careers aspects within schools are undertaken by teachers who have a full teaching load, who will be teaching all day and so on and so forth, and that any career responsibilities they may have are an added, supplemental part of their post. So, because of that, there's a natural restriction on the amount of work and engagement that these individuals can do, because they have a full-time teaching job, so to speak. So, unless you have—and I know FE colleges have it—a dedicated full-time career officer or similar, who can proactively go out and engage proactively with employers to bring them in, schools are very reliant on the inputs of third parties—Careers Wales or whoever—in terms of bringing stuff in and arranging these engagement sessions. And schools are really reliant on what the individuals or the employees are able to do on top of their teaching engagement. So, they're doing the best they can with what they have, in one sense, I guess.

Do schools not still organise, for the Welsh baccalaureate, work experience placements? Because I remember they used to employ somebody to help with that. So, has that diminished?

It has diminished. And I think one of the biggest issues was with insurance as well, for students being able to go on placements. So, it's a struggle to get students on placements and work experience, to be honest. And I know it's usually on a voluntary basis by now.

Can I—? Sorry, Mary.

I was just going to say—I think Siôn's already highlighted it—that it's an add-on to somebody's job, from speaking to members, so I think it's an extra thing that people are arranging, by this point.

Can I just ask one more, a quick one?

Yes.

I don't know if you'll have the answer to this, but I was talking somebody who wanted to go down an apprentice route, but also wanted to continue with A-levels, but wasn't able to do both. I suppose that's a funding issue, isn't it?

It is, yes.

Yes, and Siôn's nodding. So, is that something that needs looking at, do you think, so that they can do both?

Well, you know, it'd be interesting to see where these FE centres or schools are in Wales where not only do they have a wide suite of A-level options, but they also have a wide suite of practical, work-based options as well. Unfortunately, I would bet that they don't exist any more and that there's delineation between A-level schools doing the academic stuff and the FE colleges tending to do the hands-on stuff. But, again, it's just a natural evolution of things because of funding, as you said.

Mary, please.

It's my understanding, Carolyn, that work-based learning and therefore apprenticeship funding has been cut, so that will create extra barriers to offering that range of academic and vocational courses. I think it's really important. I don’t think we're in a place where they've got parity of esteem and I think that is really important.

Yes.

Thank you. Does any other Member have a question they'd like to ask, because I think we have literally one minute?

There's just one final question and it's on an area and subject that everyone's touched upon, in the phrase, but I think we should ask a question on it. It's: to what extent does the poor quality of information and support provided to learners at school result in the likelihood of young people getting a NEET status, and being not in employment, education or training? And do you find, in your own personal experiences, that it's harder for these young people to then re-engage with education once they've left school at 16?  

Absolutely.

Yes.

It's the old adage that you leave university, or you leave sixth form and you take a year to go around the world and, 'I'll re-engage with my education once I come back'—you know, you never do. Once you're out, as you said, it's very hard to re-engage; it's much easier to stay within your educational path without any breaks, because, once you have a break, then other things and interests will take your attention. And in many cases, of course, they find employment, possibly, or some kind of employment, and they say, 'Well, I've got a steady—. I've got an income and I prefer this to doing any education.'

So, to make it simpler, then, in an one-word answer, who do you think should be responsible for supplying the information to make sure that they’re aware of just the options that are available to them?

Sorry, can I just answer your previous question?

Of course you can, yes. 

I was just going to say that I don’t think, today, we’ve really touched on youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds, whose parents don’t have as much income. I think we’re in a situation where potentially young people are spending their EMA on the bus to get to college, and I thought it was college by college, but it’s local authority by local authority; it’s depending on the funding arrangements. So, some colleges over different local authorities will have different offers for whichever site of that college—so, it’s the same college but a different site—that you’re able to access that transport. So, for young people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds there are going to be multiple barriers. And I think it’s really important and I hope in your future evidence sessions you’re able to explore that some more, because there will be multiple barriers. Some of those are things we can do things about as a Government—you know, that the Welsh Government can do things about.

Okay. I’m sure we will in future, rest assured. Thank you so much for that. So, who’s responsible for the poor quality of the information going out to young people then? And who can improve it?

Well, I think there’s an opportunity for Medr, isn’t there?

Medr.

It could. The problem is that it's so high stakes with curriculum pressures in schools it’s going to be very, very difficult to provide that space.

Okay.

I think it should be part of the weave of the curriculum, rather than a bolt-on thing you give them in year 9, something extra. Careers and career choices, career pathways, should be intrinsic in the curriculum.

Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We could keep you here the whole day, unfortunately for you. We do still have a number of questions to ask. Is it okay if we write to you with those questions? We really do appreciate it when you do take the time to reply to us. So, again, thank you so much for this morning. You’ll be sent a transcript of this morning’s proceedings for checking in due course. Thank you again.

Diolch yn fawr. 

Diolch yn fawr. 

Diolch. 

Thank you. So, we’ll now take a short break for five minutes. Thank you.

Okay, welcome back. We move on now to agenda item 3, which is the second evidence session for our inquiry. I'm very pleased to welcome Karen Berell and Deb Austin, who is online. We've just received apologies from Joel James as well. So, Deb and Karen are both parents speaking on behalf of Parents Voices in Wales. They have kindly agreed to come today to share their evidence. We are extremely grateful to them for attending. Thank you, both.

So, I’ll now start with the first section of questioning. How important is the role of parents in supporting young people with their choices of which routes to take in post-16, and do they get the information they need to help their children? Who wants to start?

So, I come with an experience of raising children who are neurodivergent, so that’s kind of where my information comes from. In terms of how important it is for parents, it’s extremely important, as it should be. But I guess, from my experience, it’s the fact that my children don’t always take the same information in as everybody else. So, it’s not always evident what might be implied. They don’t take the implications in. So, it needs to be explicit information. They need to have that given in very, very clear formats. Quite often, when you’ve got neurodivergent children, you’ve got neurodivergent parents, and so that kind of information that you might rely on your children normally to be fed back to you doesn’t actually happen. So, it’s not only important that the children have explicit information, but it’s also important that the parents have that as well.

Thank you. Deb, did you want to come in here?

Yes. I too have got a very similar experience. I’m also a mum of a neurodivergent young boy. For us, communication is often misunderstood and misinterpreted, or different types of communication are required at different times and getting that balance right is really important. If you ask my son and many others around what’s important to them, it’s around them feeling safe and having other trusted adults that may help them over time to digest the information. That really requires parents and carers to also be in and around the table at the point that any information is being shared. I think it’s an awfully big ask for that to happen directly to the young person. Also, from our perspective, it’s us as parents trying to understand what the entitlement is, and that isn’t always clear either. So, you’re constantly having to do the researching around, rather than having upfront conversations over a period of time that allow us to help guide our children.

Okay, thank you, Deb. So, what factors do you think have the most influence on the choices young people make about their options after year 11? Karen.

It can be various factors, and I think, where we’ve spoken about this in groups before, one of the things that stuck out for me was, for my daughter, for example, that she didn’t feel like she had choice. There was that kind of funnelling that happens in school, where those pathways are kind of mapped out for them, or they feel that they’re mapped out for them. So, sometimes, there isn’t that capacity to know that there are different choices out there, and they kind of follow that route, rather than take it back to themselves and make more informed options and choices.

Deb, did you want to come in here?

Yes. I guess, from my perspective, a lot of the conversations still focus on the academic side, and, for many families, that may not be the route or the aspiration, actually. And the other comment from me in this space is around the conversations being very reliant on the individual, the teacher, who may or may not have a strong link to apprenticeships or local community opportunities, so it's hit and miss. That variation is massive.

And then, if you take the conversation, and the quality of the conversation, too often it's sector led. If you're thinking about the age and stage of maturity of those children, with some of those, and my son included, the conversation I would hope we would have would be around what he loves doing, and it may not be clear about which sector that may be in; it may be working with children. Could there be a far more flexible approach that allows them to try lots of different opportunities of working with children across many sectors, rather than that funnelling in to a particular sector and making a life choice very, very early on, when they may not be ready to do that?

Thank you, Deb. What kinds of things should be included in the information provided to neurodivergent learners, or learners with additional learning needs, so that they are fully informed to make decisions about their future after year 11?

I think Deb hit on something really important around flexibility. There isn't any flexibility in the system at the moment. One of my children needed to step away from the system. She became NEET for some time. And it was really scary as a parent, because it's like a big black hole. But she needed the work experience, she needed to go out and try different things, so that she knew what worked for her, and then she managed to turn it around. She went back into academia; she went and did a degree. But she really needed that space to find herself, what was important for her, what motivated her, and where her skillset was, and she didn't really get that from formal education. She needed to step outside that, and we don't have the space within the system at the moment to allow our young people to do that and do some of that exploration.

Can I ask, when she stepped outside that space, what did she do? What was the driver, then, to get her to go back into education?

Well, she went—. We had some work programme—I think we were signposted to it through Careers Wales. It was based in Swansea, where we live, and that work programme just gave her the opportunity to try several different work experiences. So, she tried work experience at a school; she tried work experience in construction. She just went along with no kind of outcome in mind or expectation, and at some point it just clicked for her, and she was like, 'Oh, I want to go back to college and I want to do this', and she flew. She went through college, on to university, and she came out with a 2:1 degree.

And did that experience give her more confidence then to move forward? Do you feel that that time out and that time within those extra settings gave her that extra boost of confidence to be able to go back?

Definitely. I think, especially neurodivergent children, when they're in school, they get a lot of—. It feels very, very stressful for them. They almost feel like it's a life or death thing that, if they fail school, if they fail that academia aspect, that's it—that life is over, kind of thing. And so it was really brave of her to step outside of that. She took A-levels that weren't really meaningful for her. So, when she first left school, she went into A-levels, and she wasn't flying at them, she wasn't feeling successful in them, and actually she wasn't even particularly liking them. She really needed to find what worked for her, and that was getting in touch with the real world, going out there, experiencing it, touching things and moving in those spaces.

And did she go into the A-level setting because she was pushed that way, or did she just feel that that's what we do, and because she just wasn't getting the correct advice for her within the school setting?

I think it's not just for her; I think there are so many children that are getting the same information: 'This is the pathway that you take, and this is the right pathway that you take, and that is GCSEs, A-levels, university.' I'm not saying that's the wrong pathway. I absolutely believe in young people having access to degrees, but it's got to be what works for them, what's right for them, where their skill set is, and I don't think they necessarily get that from school and from doing their GCSEs.

Thank you, that's interesting. Deb, did you want to come in here?

Yes, I guess my experience would be one where I would never want to put a glass ceiling on my son and his peers. But, at the moment, reading and writing are very difficult for him, so the chances of him moving into academic GCSEs and A-levels—it's almost out of reach. So, we're already thinking around what his future looks like, and we would really want, or we would really like, some positive role models that maybe have gone on through apprenticeships into environments where—we call it, 'He has super learning powers'—where his super learning powers can come to the forefront. He's particularly talented around creativity and logic, but reading and writing are really difficult. So, individuals that have walked that journey, that could be his role model, that could perhaps start introducing those environments now into our local community, where are they? Could he go and meet those people? Because over time, he will then become comfortable and confident to make his own decisions. And that's all any mum really wants is for your children to be happy, informed and be able to make their own choices and decisions. And those role models for me are missing.

The other bit for me is around, I'd love to see apprenticeships and opportunities being more proactively offered, so that we've almost got local organisations, companies, charities, being incentivised to grow their own within the community. That would forge the link between the local community and the education providers, and that isn't in place at the moment.

Okay, thank you. So, it sounds like almost the more visual, tactile and involved they can be, the better, then.

Yes. I'm not saying that that's right for every single learner. I think, when I consider neurodivergent children, I consider that they have spiky profiles, so they can excel in some areas that aren't necessarily academic. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have access to that kind of academic opportunity. I think, when we're looking at that growth space, that education space shouldn't be in a silo. It should be part of an holistic approach that we look at with our young people when they get to that age, that 16, 18, 20-year-old kind of age group, when they're growing, they're flourishing as people, and how are we supporting that? And I think there's something there around those transitions, because quite often, they're going into FE or they're going into HE. And that's when that really well-scaffolded structure comes away, and they struggle at those points, and we're not supporting them well enough.

So, would that support earlier on in their school life be better, say, from post 14 rather than post 16, so that they've got that two-year gap to build on to move forward? Do you think that would be more helpful?

Yes, I think somebody said in the conversations that we had last week that it's not just about a destination, it's about a whole journey, and this part is part of that, that bigger journey. So, we need to look before we get to this stage as well as after that stage, in terms of that support and that transition, and look at building those things like resilience earlier on. So, we're looking at those transition points, so it's not just at that age of 16 into FE, but there's also that transition into secondary school—they’re big points of transition where we need to be looking at how we build in that resilience and support our young people.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Natasha, please. 

I think you’ve covered pretty much everything I wanted to ask you, but in relation to age, I completely appreciate what you're saying, and I think that when the child moves from junior school to secondary school it's a huge jump for them in every sense of the word. But at what point or what age do you personally both feel a young person, a child, should receive some knowledge about a career, future opportunities, to be able to at least start developing an interest or desire, or maybe even a dislike and not wanting to persevere with further education? Do you think there should be a particular age that we should target and try and get them to be more amenable to see what options are out there?

For me, it's about making sure that we're not actually putting that glass ceiling on them. I think, from a very young age, kids who are neurodivergent struggle within the school system, and a lot of the time that feedback is, 'You're not good enough.' And, actually, they are; they're all good enough, they all have a skill set, and how are we nurturing that skill set, so that they have that resilience, and we're not putting a glass ceiling on them. So, my children are raised to believe that they can all go to university no matter what their skill set is, because I just think that even the ones that are not academic can still excel in the skills that they do have. 

And a viewpoint that some children and young people have is they're not good enough, they're not cut out for university. Is that something that's very much from their teachers, from their peers, or is it just generally everyone around them?

It's how education is set up. We've set up education so that they're aware, especially by the time they're in secondary school—well, actually, no, this goes back to primary school—who are the smartest children in the class, who are the ones that struggle, and they know where they are in that ranking order. So, we're giving them messages really early on in life about where they sit in that academic process. 

I completely understand. And my last question, because I know you've covered a lot of the answers to questions that I was going to ask you, but you mentioned, I believe it was Deb, in answer to one of the questions that Buffy asked, in relation to role models, and the importance of having good, solid role models for young people, particularly when it comes to schools and colleges, their future, et cetera. So, from both of you, I'd love to know what your ideal model would be. If I could wave my magic wand and create a perfect system for you, what would you like to see?

I don't know if Deb wants to go first.

Shall I come in first? I would really like to see—and it kind of builds on the conversation that we've had—role models that are celebrated for the journey they've been on, not necessarily the destination, and that they very clearly are able to share that it's okay not to know, and it's okay to try different things, and to follow your heart and to be happy, because if you're happy and fulfilled surely that is the most important thing. And having role models that are willing to share that journey and take time to share that journey is really important. 

If I come back to the age question, and I'd really reflect on just—. My daughter at the moment, she's just turned five and they've already asked her what she wants to be when she's older. Well, that's at five years of age and they're already funnelling into an academic kind of—. They've got these fixed ideas. My son isn't in that space. If you ask him what he wants to be at the moment, he's going to stay at home, I'm going to bring him lunch every day and he's going to be a gamer. That's what he genuinely believes to be the career that he's in. And they're so contrasting in their conversations, depending on their level of need, and we've got to be able to flex with that and we've got to be able to meet that need.

So, role models need to click with the children and that is the really important bit for me, and it can't be a one-off. This is a lifelong journey we're on, so those connections need to grow as the individual grows, and those conversations need to be continual conversations, not a one-off careers session that, ultimately, may send you down a very different path to the one you would choose a year on. 

Okay, understood. Thank you so much for that answer. Karen, do you have anything to add? 

I guess, for me, if I was looking at that ideal system, I'd want other people to come in and build that, including our young people. They really know. They're so switched on. They know what their needs are. They know what information they need or how they need to be learning, and how they learn best. They're phenomenal. They are our future and our leaders, and they have the information that we need. If I was looking at that model myself, it would be a holistic model. It would look at the whole person and look at nurturing what we have in the whole person, instead of systems that may be funnelled towards academia, or that system that we have around assessment and continually assessing where our children are academically. I think I'd look at the more holistic space.

Understood. Thank you so much for your answers. Thank you, Chair. 

Thank you. I'm sorry, Natasha, I didn't even realise when I was talking that I was basically covering your question.

No, it's fine—it happens all the time; don't even worry about it. It's fine. 

Sorry. Questions now from Carolyn.

I'm going to ask questions about options after year 11. So, are there particular issues about choices available for neurodivergent young people, or young people with mental health needs post 11? For example, to what extent are choices limited because providers can't meet their needs? 

I think choices become limited because of the support systems that aren't available to our young people—or, they're there, but they're hidden, and we don't know how to access them. I think, when we're looking at supporting neurodivergent learners, at FE or HE, you've got to be looking at how they access student support, well-being services. There's a suite of support services that are normally available within college settings or university settings, but, quite often, we don't know how to find them, or it's not a natural thing to actually access those. So, having, again, that holistic support around that young person is really, really important, and also having some flexibility in the system. We have a very rigid system that almost prescribes what that education should look like and what we expect of them, and we don't build in any flexibility. So, when people have mental health challenges, or they're just challenged by transitioning as a neurodivergent adult, then, a lot of that time, that feels too much for them and they end up crashing and burning, or they end up dropping out, because we're not really looking at that person holistically.

I heard from someone, earlier, about provision of counselling in higher education facilities, but, very often, I think you said earlier, that the trusted person is a parent or the tutor. So, would a person know where to go to for counselling? Would they feel that's being provided, or do you think they would feel better going to their teacher to ask them for that provision, to signpost? And how important it is for a parent to know which way to go as well to help?

I think it's more important that the parent knows which way to go to help, because communication is one of the biggest challenges for a young person who's neurodivergent. So, communicating with a stranger, or someone they don't know, or pathways that are invisible, they're inaccessible. When that young person is extremely stressed because they're trying to organise their life, suddenly, on their own, all these extra bits aren't even on their radar—it's the parent they'll go back to. And if the parent can't find the pathways either, then we get kind of stuck.

Okay. So, is there a pull factor for parents to encourage pupils with additional needs to stay at school sixth forms where possible, because of the fear of the unknown to go to further education, or are there any issues because of the perception that FE colleges might be less willing than schools to speak to parents? Do you feel like further education colleges might be a distance away, because you've already formed a relationship with the schools?

They tend to be further away. It tends to be that you're going to struggle to access the tutors that you need to speak to or the support that you need to speak to. And that's from experience.

Okay. Right. Thank you.

Deb, did you want to come in here?

Yes. So, there are a couple of points for me, I guess, that spring to mind. One is around the flexibility, for me. We talk about it, but it isn't a reality that we really focus on stage not age of development. So, where is that flexibility in the system to be able to say, 'This young person's not ready for these conversations and that's okay; we continue to hold them and we can keep them safe in the environment that they're in until they're ready'? But it isn't; at the moment, it's very age related.

In terms of what we'd look for, I would really be looking for how we would promote inclusive employers, and how you really bring those closer to the education providers, so that, over time, they build that relationship and they become part of a young person's trusted adult scaffolding. So, when you have that transition, that transition feels more natural, it's not a forced transition. Because transitions, in my experience, take time—it's six, 12 months of transition, if it's well supported. And then, if you're looking at where you can't better manage a transition, it often leads to travel. Well, travel is a huge trigger, particularly for my son, and his peers. He travels an hour every day to access appropriate education provision already, because that's the nearest provision, and there are four of them in a taxi to get there. He would never be able to manage on public transport; that isn't an option for him. He would find that extremely difficult. So, we really need to think about how we remove some of those travelling barriers over time—so, thinking about what does a young person's entitlement to travel look like. Ironically, if he did go on to HE and FE, it's probably closer than his current education provision, because it is at least in the community that we're in. But travelling itself needs to be considered very carefully and is often a very big barrier in the reasons why somebody may make one decision over another, and whether there is something around a young person's entitlement, much like they've got in Scotland, that really could wrap around young people so that they're able to make the right decision, not just the decision they can afford to make, which is in itself a barrier—.

Thank you, Deb. More questions from Natasha, please.

Thanks so much, Chair. We've had some concerns from schools with sixth forms that they tend to actually want to keep young people continuing to carry on doing their A-levels in order to keep their numbers up. It sounds horrible, but that's, unfortunately, what we've been hearing quite a lot of. Due to that, a lot of FE colleges don't feel that they're getting the limelight, they're not being able to go in and speak to the children to tell them about the opportunities that they have. We've also heard that only some pupils within the school believe that they're unlikely to progress to A-levels, and they're indeed sent off to FE colleges as sort of like a, 'Here you go; we're almost passing you over to the FE colleges.' Is that a picture—? You're both nodding your heads. Is that a picture that you both recognise? Is that something that sounds familiar and happens too often, in your opinion?

Deb, did you want to come in first?

Yes. Absolutely the picture that we see and experience. My son and his peers would very much be in that latter 'unlikely to follow the academic route', so very quickly will be moved off into an alternative environment. The incentivisation within education at the moment is around bums on seats, and that pays, rather than incentivising education for growing children that are resilient and happy and can contribute lifelong to a community and to the population of Wales. I think what gets measured gets done, unfortunately, and the measurement here seems to be very much around the sector, and it's not the young person then.

Karen, do you have anything you want to add?

Yes. I mean, not a huge amount. A lot of my children in mainstream school went on—it didn't have a sixth form—but I do actually have twins in year 10 at the moment who have a sixth form, and it's quite interesting that, yes, the FE college hasn't actually been into the school at all. So, it's quite interesting you should say that.

Okay. So, that feeds nicely into my last question, which is: do you have any comments, as parents, and you both are, indeed—? Do you feel that you get all the information that you need to support your children in order to get into higher education, and whether sufficient ambition—? We don't talk about ambition enough, but do you feel sufficient ambition is being penetrated into them at a young age, that anything is achievable? You both mentioned glass ceilings, and I do appreciate that; I think every one of us, regardless of our parties, all believe that no child should have a glass ceiling thrown on their head, at any level or at any age, but I just want to know, specifically for those with additional learning needs, as well as those who don't, what do you feel that the current state is?

Well, I do some work with Swansea Poverty Truth Commission, so I sit in that space quite often where we have conversations with families who experience poverty, and that's the biggest thing that you get from having those conversations is that glass ceiling, and it's seen within those communities in quite a big way.

Is that for all children or just those children who specifically have additional learning needs?

No, I think that's for all children who come from areas of high deprivation, that glass ceiling. And then, if you've got additional needs on top of that, that is another factor that's added into that as well.

And who do you feel should be responsible for giving that information: teachers, various support groups, Welsh Government? Who do you think should fly the flag and say, 'We're going to make sure all parents are fully aware of what's available to them'?

I think it comes from Welsh Government. I think you're the leaders, and I think, if you lead that conversation, then that then needs to be picked up by schools.

Okay. Thank you. Deb, did you want to add anything to that one?

My comment would be: it can't be a one-off conversation. It needs to be discussions over a period of time that allow people to grow, mature, develop and allow their thought processes to mature as they do. Too often, it's a one-off conversation.

If I may, can I just take you back to the other query you had around the counselling, which was asked earlier on? And I guess my view on that would be that, in order to reach out if you need help and support, I think most important is the question around who are the trusted adults that that young person would want to go on the journey with them, and that may not be in education. I'm thinking about that my son, and many others, had a period of time when they were excluded and there was no education provision, so they had to be at home, and we were just waiting for the diagnosis to come through that unlocked the golden key to then be able to find the right environment. Albeit that it's an hour away, it's still an environment for him to go and learn with others. The trusted adult then would not have been anybody in education; it would have been somebody very different from that. So, we need to think about the trusted adults in and around the system and how those individuals can then unlock the opportunities.

But, in terms of the role of Government, and I watch a number of things that come on the tv, and they come on and they're advertising, 'Have you thought about teaching?', but it's still sector-led. So, why couldn't it be, 'Have you thought about working with children?', and, 'Here are all the opportunities.' So, anyone who's watching that and thinking, 'I love working with children', 'Here's the apprenticeship opportunities; here's the education opportunities', but it's not sector-led, and that we celebrate that people who want to work with children can move and we will support the journey, not just the destination, as part of that. That comes from a legislation change right at the top, which is around us being able to be really flexible and child-centred and child-focused.

Can I just ask one final question?

Yes.

Have you both, when it's come to your children, when it's come to their learning, when it's come to their careers, when it's come to aspiration, have you had any interaction with Careers Wales at all, and how's your relationship been with them? Because we meet them, we hear from them, they provide us with guidance, but, from your perspectives, it would be really interesting to see do you see them as a positive, do you feel that they support your young ones when it comes to making their way in the world, particularly in the work sector, or whether it be in education, further education or higher? Are they proving to be useful or not? Please, feel free to be as open as you'd like, because I'd like to hear an honest view in relation to how productive they actually are.

I think it very much depends on where you live; you get different experiences. I think my own experience—. We have a designated Careers Wales adviser who works with kids with additional needs across the Swansea area, and she has been fantastic. So, I've seen her on several occasions and in terms of writing those plans ready to move on and that transition, and she actually met with my children yesterday. So, that element has been really, really positive for me, and I know who to go back to if I need to. But it's where those plans land and the institution that they land with that then sometimes falls down, and I think it could be much better.

So, just for my clarity, the plans that you've made with your, I want to call them career advisers from Careers Wales, those plans are targeted for the schools? Are they targeted for the local council? Where are they going exactly?

It goes to the FE college. So, where they've had an individual development plan or a statement in place, they write a new plan for FE, and the plans are phenomenal—really, really good—it's just that, when they get there, the structure to support those plans isn't as great, and it kind of falls down a bit. 

Got you. Okay. Deb, did you want to add anything? After that, I'm done then, Chair.

Yes. For me, I haven't had any direct experience with Careers Wales yet, but I'm just thinking about, if I put myself in the shoes of my son, he's not ready to have a conversation around careers; he'd be ready to have the conversation around opportunities, and those opportunities being about what would that look like into the community and potentially into apprenticeships. And just at the point of just even the language of that, does that really reflect our ambitions for the future for our children? Isn't it more about opportunities and lifelong opportunities at that? So, it's more around the language, I guess, and the perceptions of that language, maybe, than what they actually offer.

My final point on that would be that I'm not sure how skilled they would be around writing any IDP plan or transition plan into apprenticeships. What does that look like, and how skilled is the apprenticeship offer or the work experience offer in working with children with additional learning needs? So, the danger here is that you support a movement and then the skills are not there and the environment is not right, and it becomes a bad experience. There is some real training, learning and development do be done across the board, and particularly that movement into community apprenticeships is going to be really critical.

Understood. Thank you so much, Chair.

Can I come back? I'd like to say that Careers Wales were brilliant in putting that support plan in place and looking at the additional learning need and how that is supported. What I have found difficult in my journey is that, if your child isn't statemented or doesn't have an IDP in place—. Well, even if they have a recognised diagnosis, if they're not IDP’d or statemented, what they get is the bog-standard offer of Careers Wales, and that isn't as involved. They're not getting the right information that they need. As a parent supporting your young person, you're not getting the right information that you need. So, there's a difference. 

Thank you. We'll have some questions from Cefin now, please.

Diolch. Earlier on this morning, we discussed with the teaching unions the availability, or lack of in some cases, of Welsh-medium provision in post-16, particularly in colleges. I don't know whether, as parents, you have a view on that with regard to ALN and that career development into post-16.

I don't have huge experience around that. I chose to put my children into English-medium education because of their additional learning need, because my understanding was that what would have been available within a Welsh-medium school for a child with additional learning needs wasn't as comprehensive or wasn't as supportive as I needed it to be at that time.

Deb, do you have a comment on that?

Not specifically on the question. I can share with you my personal story here, which is that all my son's cousins are first-language Welsh and we had a real ambition that we would follow the same education pathway with our children, so we tried to access the cylch meithrin very early on, and our ambition was that we would walk that Welsh language pathway. The relationship and therefore the placement broke down very quickly, and it was clear that they just weren't skilled and able to meet the needs of our son. It ended up being a really difficult experience. We had no choice but to revert back to English-medium education. That was sad, because that isn't where we wanted to be. We wanted him to be able to play with his cousins in their language of choice, which would have been the Welsh language.

That's an interesting point, if I could just make that—that we badly need specialist support through the medium of Welsh for children with either neurodivergent or other additional needs.

My final question is around transport to post-16 education. I think, Deb, you mentioned earlier on not only the availability of public transport, but the suitability of public transport as well for people with additional needs. So, just a general comment about how much of a barrier is a lack of public transport or suitable transport to your children.

I live quite rurally. Even though I'm on the edge of the city, we're rural, so public transport is just quite dire to our area in general. So, in terms of our choices, our options, if we don't stay on at our local sixth form, we have one choice of FE college, which might sound a lot to many people, but if you were living in the centre of the city, you'd have about three. So, it really does curtail what we can access.

I think I touched on this earlier around transport. I was part of a virtual group where there were some real experiences shared, particularly in rural areas where there isn't an option, and travel being the reason why people had to choose one particular direction over another, because they physically can't get to somewhere or they can't afford to get to somewhere because of the real barriers of that.

Just thinking about my own experience with my son, travelling in transport with an escort, with four other children, is great. That has worked. But even a minor change, like a change in the colour of the taxi, will result in school refusal. That is where we’re at. So, those triggers and transitions every single day are really challenging.

There is a bit here around redressing the power balance for parents, because when we talk to parents about how, over time, can we reduce that, the pooling of money to allow parents to come up with their own solutions puts it very much back in our court to say what’s right for our children, rather than a constant negotiation with the local authority, and ‘Please don’t change the escort. Please don’t change the colour of the car. You can’t go from a car to a minibus because that’s a real challenge.’ We could pool our money. We could come up with, probably, an innovative way forward and one that’s probably far more cost-effective than the routes that we’re using right now.

So, there’s something around a travel entitlement for all young people, and then there’s probably something else around some flexibility and trust for parents and carers who know their children best to come up with some innovative solutions, to take away some of those barriers for those children that really do find travel and change, and any transition, very challenging. I’m really confident we could do that.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. 

Are you okay to stay on a few extra minutes, because we are running over, as usual? How important, if at all, is the education maintenance allowance in supporting young people’s decisions to stay in post-16 education?

It’s huge, it’s massive, in terms of just little things that you don’t notice, like incentive and motivation, especially for 16-year-olds. They’re eager at that age, aren’t they, to go out and explore the world, so giving them that to stay in education, you’ve got that motivation.

But I think it comes back, at the moment especially, to an essential conversation around the cost of living at the moment. I know, particularly in my family, as a single parent family, my child is very aware of ‘I want to get a job as soon as I can’, because there is that level of awareness of where we are with the cost of living at the moment. So, for me, I’m hoping that that motivation of the EMA would maintain their capacity to stay within education a little bit longer.

I guess my lens would be slightly different, and that would be around how we could incentivise and support an early movement into the development of lifelong skills, and what could that look like, perhaps, through an apprenticeship route, accepting that the journey we’re likely to go on with our family is unlikely to be an academic one, so how can we do that, and how can we support that in a way that allows my son and many others to feel that we’re building on what’s strong, not what’s wrong, and we celebrate the strengths, and we’re able to wrap the scaffolding around that.

The flexibility for me would come in the ability for that to be managed against stage not age. Too often, we’ve got these artificial cut-offs. We’ve got this notion that you go to sleep when you’re 17, and you wake up on your eighteenth birthday and you’re an adult, and that gold dust has been sprinkled overnight. That isn’t reality. So, having that ability to allow a young person to grow at a rate appropriate for them, up until the age of 25, for me, is really important. How we create that scaffolding and flexibility, and the funding that wraps around that, is critical.

Thanks, Deb. What is the main recommendation you want this committee to make in terms of the support for young people and parents when considering what their options are after year 11?

I think it’s around pathways for me. We have quite specific pathways to the 'real world', and that real world is very much kind of professional work. And when schools talk about the real world, what they don’t envisage, and what’s not envisaged within our society, is my children. My children who are neurodivergent aren’t envisaged in that real world, unless they fix themselves, unless they make their ADHD aspects go away a little bit so that they can fit into the real world. And when we look at those pathways, the pathways that we envisage for children like mine, who are neurodivergent, tend to sit within institutionalised pathways—things like prison, mental health institutions, healthcare, social care. Those kind of pathways, really, are what's available to my children. So, how do we add that flexibility? How do we build those pathways in so that my children can be envisaged in the real world? That's where I'd really like some thought to go into it and some discussions to happen. 

Thank you. Deb is nodding away there. 

I agree. For me, this is around the broadest opportunities possible, reducing the amount of filters that are happening, allowing the rate of growth to be led by the young person. And I guess I was always going to say this, but redressing the power balance to allow the parents to have an equal voice in the conversations around the child—so, bringing the aspirations and methodology of co-production in Wales to life. We've got amazing legislation in Wales, but the legislation intent and community reality bear no resemblance. The gulf is massive. So, help us to redress that power balance, because we want the best for our children, we want the best for all children in Wales, and I think that we can do that by workinrg better together. 

Do Members have any additional questions that they'd like to ask? No. Thank you so much for coming in this morning and meeting with us. I hope it wasn't too stressful. We really do appreciate your time. You'll be sent a transcript to check in due course, but thank you so much again for coming in this morning. 

I'll now move on to item 4, which is papers to note. We have six papers to note today, the full details of which are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note the papers? Yes. Thank you. 

Moving on to item 5, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are Members content? Yes. Thank you. We will now proceed in private.