National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to this hybrid meeting of the Petitions Committee. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. 

Committee members should note any declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during proceedings. Vaughan.

If I could, Chair, there are two matters where I think I should declare an interest and indicate that I won't take part in proceedings. That's the item under 3.3 regarding Kilvey Hill in Swansea, the Skyline project. I made ministerial decisions in support of that project. And also the item in 3.4 regarding long COVID, as obviously I made a series of decisions during the COVID pandemic as the health Minister. So, I should declare an interest and state that I don't think I should take any part in the discussion or the decision making on those two items.

OKay, thank you, Vaughan. I'd just like to say we have Luke Fletcher joining online today. Welcome, Luke.

So, if we move on to new petitions, and petition P-06-1503, ‘Site ground mounted solar panels next to roads and railways, in industrial areas and over car parks’.

‘Acting on climate change means we need to reduce our energy use and move to using more renewable energy. Solar power is part of the solution.

'Germany have taken a different approach to Wales and the UK however and commissioned studies to look at siting ground mounted solar panels next to roads and railways, in industrial areas and even over car parks. These studies have identified enough suitable land to install more than enough solar to meet Germany’s 2030 target of 215GW.’

So, could I ask Luke to take us through this petition, please?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. In terms of this petition, I think there's a lot of agreement not just probably in this committee, but across the Senedd. We had a debate just a couple of weeks ago on solar in particular and the need for us to have a more strategic plan when it comes to the placement of solar as well. But in the petition they highlight the case in Germany of, for example, identifying land on industrial estates and so on, and using that land to put solar panels up to then produce solar. There are a lot of things I think we could learn and do here in in Wales, for example public buildings—having solar panels on top of those, and in car parks, and having solar panels established where people can plug straight in and charge their car.

From that debate, I remember the Welsh Government saying that they were looking at how they could actually have a more strategic approach to solar and what needs to be done within it. I know there are a lot of issues within the planning system, but this is going to be something that I know Members are going to want to raise in the Chamber over the next year now in the run-up to the Senedd election, and to be fair, as I said, Welsh Government are working on things. So, could I suggest, in that case, given things are progressing, that we thank the petitioner for submitting the petition, but ultimately close the petition, whilst also highlighting some of that work that Welsh Government is saying is going on, as well as the interest within the Senedd on this?

Okay, thank you, Luke.Would anybody else like to come in on this?

I remember attending a TEDx event with schoolchildren and they said, ‘Why don't we do car parks with solar on top and put solar on roofs?’, and I know it's been raised by many people. I'm thinking, as the EU are progressing a solar rooftop initiative, that might push the dial over here as well, as we look at what they're doing. So, I think it's good to keep an eye on this, and the UK Government are also looking at a policy as well regarding canopies over car parks.

Okay, so are we happy to go forward with Luke's proposal? Yes. Okay, thank you. I think we can all individually keep a watching brief on this going forward and speak on it as an issue and something we'd support. So, we'll close the petition and thank the petitioner. Thank you.

If we move on now to petition P-06-1511, ‘Rebuild Cardiff's Lost Observatory at St Fagans Museum "Together we shape the story of Wales"’.

‘The Penylan Observatory, once a beacon of astronomical discovery and community engagement in Cardiff, was tragically lost in the late 20th century. This petition proposes the rebuilding of this historic landmark at St Fagans National Museum of History, highlighting its importance to the city's cultural heritage and its potential to inspire future generations of astronomers. The Penylan Observatory, an Edwardian-era landmark in Cardiff, served as a public observatory for decades, fostering community engagement and scientific interest. Its closure in 1979 left a void, but the Cardiff Astronomical Society (CAS) has kept its spirit alive.'

This petition was submitted by Spencer Errol Grennan, with 353 signatures. Could I bring Joel in on this one to discuss the petition?

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious that a couple of members of the committee have probably met with the petitioner to discuss this petition, and I was one of them, and I was quite interested in the proposals. I've also seen a copy of the letter between yourself and the Government Minister, and it seems quite a positive response. But as the letter noted, there is very little that's left of the observatory, and if St Fagans was to do it, it would need the original design drawings. I'm conscious there is not much we can do as a committee, but I was wondering whether or not it is in our scope that we could write to, say, the Glamorgan Archives to see if they have these in their possession, because I think that might be something positive for the committee to do. If they do, we could look then at either giving them to the petitioner or to St Fagans, and then see how much of a goer this actually is.

Okay, thank you for your suggestion, Joel. Would anybody else like to speak on this? Yes, Vaughan.

On the original drawings, if anyone knows where they are, it's likely to be the Cardiff Astronomical Society. They may be in the Glamorgan Archives or they may be elsewhere. If they could just confirm if they know where they are, at least Amgueddfa Cymru would then have an idea about what they could do, although, actually, I think the reality is that the budget means that this is unlikely to be a first project proposal. But at least there's an idea of what you could do if you wanted to pursue this idea in the future. But I don't think that should stop us from closing the petition.

I personally would like to see if we have a response first before closing it, if that's okay.

Okay. Any other thoughts? 

I think we might get the records and still close the petition, because that's about making information available. Because if the petition is open and it's still there potentially to gather signatures, it is part of my concern that we just end up having petitions open because we can, not because there is anything to do that we can't agree now. I think trying to source where the drawings are—we can do that. We can contact the Glamorgan Archives, we can contact the Cardiff Astronomical Society, and we can publish the correspondence so that's available. I think we can do that without the petition being open.

Okay, so closing a petition does not necessarily stop us writing a letter, does it? Okay. Well, I'd like to thank the petitioner for this interesting heritage proposal and for raising awareness of it. It's been really interesting. If we could write to the Glamorgan Archives and also to the Cardiff Astronomical Society. Thank you. How do the committee members feel that we then close the petition because there's not much else we can do? Okay, we can still do that and write the letter. We will do that, then. Thank you.

If we move on to petition P-06-1512, 'Call on the Welsh Government to recognise and address the dental crisis facing patients in Wales'. 

'The Welsh government does not recognise the reality of the dental crisis in Wales and the impact on the public. Whilst there have been petitions presented in the past, the Welsh Government has never admitted that there is a Crisis and to the public, it seems that there has been no action taken by the Welsh Government in addressing this crisis.'

This has been submitted by Jamie Wake, with 395 signatures. Could I bring in Rhys to discuss the petition, please?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. It's fair to say that this is a matter that is raised on a very regular basis, if not a weekly basis, in Plenary—the issue with dentistry in Wales. Recently, my dentist contacted me saying that she was going private. So, I think this is an issue across Wales. I think we can highlight this petition with the Health and Social Care Committee—they've already done a piece of work on this issue. So, I would refer this petition to them, and then thank the petitioner and close it. I'm not sure what else we can do. Because this is raised on such a regular basis in Plenary, I don't think this committee can take it any further than that. Diolch.

Would anybody else like to speak on this? Okay. I agree with you. I've spoken on this as well. I know there are things taking place. We've got the dental access portal, and I know of a constituent who's been very successful getting an appointment, but it is work in progress. Of course, there's the dental school in north Wales as well, so ongoing work as well. So, is committee in agreement that we refer the petition to the Health and Social Care Committee and then we close the petition? Okay. Thank you. We will do that.

If we move on to 2.4, P-06-1528, 'Prevent Powys patients who are treated in English hospitals from facing increased waiting times'.

'Immediate action to prevent Powys patients treated in English hospitals from facing increased waiting times. This decision was agreed in the meeting of the Powys Teaching Health Board 26th March 2025'.

There's a link here.

'This treats Powys patients as second-class citizens. Welsh targets apply to Welsh hospitals, shouldn't apply to those treated in England. On 25 January 2025 the First Minister was reported as saying 'I don't want to see people in Powys suffer and I certainly don't want them to go to the back of the queue if they are going to be treated across the border in England. Urge the Welsh Government to plug the deficit and fund Powys Teaching Health Board fairly for Powys.'

So, this was submitted by Joy Jones, with 2,078 signatures. So, could I invite Vaughan to speak on this?

Yes, thank you. There are two issues in the petition. The first is around waiting times, the second is around funding. On waiting times, the decision made doesn't apply to cancer care, urgent care or care for those under 18. What it does mean is that residents of Powys, who often have specialised care commissioned in England, which is an entirely normal process—that's commissioned in line with NHS Wales waiting time targets. So, residents of Powys should be treated in the same time as residents of anywhere else in Wales. The petitioner complains about residents of Powys not being treated to the same target as English residents, who have a different waiting time target. That's an issue that would apply to residents in any health board in Wales. It's about the commissioning approach that the Powys health board take. There's a second issue that comes from some of the comments that have been highlighted—that's about long waits. So, about half the long waits for Powys residents are in England, but the petitioner is actually talking about the normal treatment time, which is the 26 week or the 18 week.

The second point is about money and funding. The petitioner talks about a fair funding settlement for Powys. I don't think this committee should get drawn into trying to redesign a funding formula for health boards. That is a complex and a difficult area, and I don't think we have the capacity to do that. I certainly think the health committee of any Senedd would feel that we were definitely cutting across their tracks. What it does mean, though, is that commissioning against the Welsh target should save money. Powys health board has a deficit that it needs to make progress on. As Senedd Members, we are regularly, whether on the health committee or not, thinking about how we fund our health service, how, actually, our health boards are able to live within their means, what that means for other public funding commitments—supporting the economy and other public services—if that's not possible. The Welsh Government have set a target to reduce the deficit in Powys. If the petitioner's request is agreed to, then it would mean that Powys residents would have faster treatment time targets, because that's what NHS England has, and it would also make a significant dent in Powys's ability to live within its means.

So, my view is that, for this—. The petitioner also seeks a meeting with the health Secretary, or his representatives. I think it's entirely possible for us to write to the health board to ask them about the assessment they've made of the decision to apply NHS Wales targets. It's also entirely reasonable for us to write to the Cabinet Secretary to highlight the petitioner's views and to confirm that the petitioner wishes to meet him or his representative, but I think that we should refer the correspondence to the Health and Social Care Committee. It is squarely within their purview, I think, about what happens with both health board funding, deficit reduction, and waiting times targets. So, my suggestion is that we write in those terms but close the petition at this point, but indicating that, again, as with the first petition, we can undertake that action and still close the petition and report back in the correspondence of this place.

Okay. Are there any other views on this? Yes, Joel.

Thank you, Chair. I think we were all copied in this morning to an e-mail from the local Member, Russell George, asking a few questions. Is there any scope in directing them to the relevant authorities?

I'm just reading the e-mail now. I'll read it out; it's only short, okay.

'I note that the petitions committee is today considering petition P-06-1528'.

'You may be aware that on 19th June 2025, the Cabinet Secretary for Health made an announcement that £120 million will be provided to help cut waiting times.

'In considering further action in regard to this petition, you may like to consider taking up this matter with the Cabinet Secretary, asking how many of the 200,000 appointments mentioned to reduce the overall size of the waiting list, will be patients of Powys Teaching Health Board, and how this funding will benefit Powys patients who are on a waiting list in England.'

Okay.

I think that is a matter for the health committee. I really do. And look, it's not as if waiting times and how the health budget is spent is going to be a matter that goes unscrutinised. We spend a large amount of our time and energy as a Parliament, and rightly so, because it's half the Welsh Government's spending—. But I think referring that, and, indeed, Russell's correspondence, to the health committee, is the right thing to do, whilst also writing the correspondence that—. Because the petitioners have asked us some questions, and I think we can write those letters and then the health committee, I'm sure, will take up issues around performance and funding.

Well, Russell George is no longer Chair of the health committee, so—.

Correct.

Okay. So, I agree with you. Is the committee in agreement also? Okay. So, if we write to the Health and Social Care Committee and forward the correspondence from Russell George, refer the petition to the Health and Social Care Committee, we could write to the health board and also the Cabinet Secretary with the petitioner's views, and then close the petition. Is the committee in agreement? 

Yes, Chair.

Okay. Thank you very much.

If we move on now, we have agenda item 3, which is updates to previous petitions. Okay. So, petition P-06-1317 is 'Recognise Teaching Assistants as an important asset to schools by raising wage'. This was submitted by Caroline Hugill with 1,405 signatures. Could I invite Luke to discuss this petition?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I know this issue is part of the strategic education workforce plan, so has been actively considered by the Cabinet Secretary, and the result of that as well, as that progresses, is going to be subject to a lot of scrutiny, whether that's in committee or within the Senedd itself. On this particular one, I think it is more relevant to a particular subject committee and their scrutiny. So, although we can't do anything as a Petitions Committee, could I suggest that, while we close the petition, we just highlight the petition as well to the Children, Young People and Education committee—I think that's the relevant committee that will be looking at this—just so that they're aware that the petition has come through? But I think this is very much one of those things that should be handled by a specific subject committee, but also will be the subject of scrutiny anyway within the Senedd.

Okay. Does the committee agree?

Yes.

Yes. I think that's a good proposal. So, if we refer it to the CYPE committee—. We all acknowledge the role of support staff and TAs. They do a fantastic job in schools. So, we'll refer this to the CYPE committee, and close the petition. I think it's the right place for it to go. Thank you, Luke.

Petition P-06-1357, 'Draw up a new Microplastics Action Plan for Wales'. This was submitted by Friends of the Earth Cymru with 3,258 signatures. So, could I bring in Joel, please, to discuss the petition?

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious we've had the petition open for some time now, and I know the petitioner has the same view, actually, and is a bit frustrated by the length of time this is taking, and they've raised a few more issues, and I was just wondering if we can raise them with the relevant Cabinet Secretary and keep the environmental committee updated on them as well.

Yes, okay. Anybody else like to speak on this? Yes, Vaughan.

The petition's been open for nearly two years and it's one of those things where sometimes the Government and the petitioner just don't agree. I think this is one of those things. So, in raising it with the Cabinet Secretary, it's important just to ask for an answer about whether they're—. Because there's a long list of suggested actions. The petitioner also recognises Wales has a good record on taking action on microplastics, but asking for several strategies takes time, energy and effort and resource. The Government has finite resources and, if the Government is willing to do more in this area but doesn't have the resources to do so at this time, I think it would be welcome if the Government just said that. That would allow us then to understand the areas of agreement and disagreement, rather than continually keeping the petition open for another round of this. If something hasn't happened within two years of the petition being there, I struggle to see how a further round will deliver action, but it would be helpful for the Government to set out what it thinks it is able to do in its response, so to have some clarity on that, rather than, 'We're broadly in favour' but then there not being action that comes from it. Sometimes, it just isn't possible, even with goodwill. Anyone who's run a public service knows that there are things you want to do but you can't do at that time, and you're better off just saying that.

We've had different discussions, haven't, we regarding plastic grass and things like that. So, if we write to—. We'll highlight the petitioner's concerns with the climate change and environment committee. The petitioner could actually write individually, as well, to members of the committee—

I'm sure they will.

—because I think that actually does work well, because it just prompts them to ask questions at the relevant time when discussing issues such as this. And we—. Sorry, Vaughan, were you suggesting that we also write to the Government again, asking for clarity?

Yes, because it's one of the proposals, to ask for clarity and for the Government to be clear about whether it expects to take up the suggested recommendations, and, if not, to provide an explanation, whether that's about disagreement on policy, or about not having the capacity, because sometimes the Government has a full work programme, like committees do, and there isn't capacity to take on more.

Okay. So, we'll write to the Government asking for clarity on whether they agree or whether it's a capacity issue. Okay. Thank you, Vaughan. And then we'll close the petition. Is everybody in agreement? Okay. Thank you.

Great.

If we move on to P-06-1373, 'Stop Welsh Government Wasting £4million on Skyline private development Kilvey Hill, Swansea'. This was submitted by Neil Jones with 3,051 signatures. Rhys, I believe you're—? 

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. This is the fourth time this petition has been considered, and I believe, on the last occasion, we mentioned that this should be a matter probably more relevant to be pursued by questions to be asked of Swansea Council, and there was a suggestion perhaps that local Members should take this this matter on. But we did agree to follow up with regard to one specific issue with regard to Skyline's gambling operations in New Zealand. We've had a response from the Welsh Government with regard to that specific issue. The petitioner now has raised some planning concerns with regard to quiet area designation. Of course, we as a committee cannot get involved with planning decisions. We've dealt with the original focus of the petition about money being provided to this project by Welsh Government; I think the petitioner has moved on slightly since then to more planning issues. My suggestion is perhaps that we refer these concerns with regard to quiet area designation to the five local Members in the area in question and they can pursue the matter if they so wish. But I think, as far as we as a committee are concerned, we've come to the to the end of this matter.

Okay. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I agree with what Rhys has set out in terms of the original ask of the petition; we have addressed that to the best of our ability as a committee. As one of those five Members that Rhys refers to, I do think now that some of these things around planning need to be dealt with specifically by local Members rather than the committee in its entirety. I've also received e-mails from this particular campaign group, which I'm happy to support as well, going forward. I know they've raised a number of concerns around Government not getting back in a timely manner, but, again, that's something I think that local Members should be helping to pursue, which I will be. But just to say that I agree with Rhys's position: I think this is a battle that's going to be going on for some time.

Okay. Thank you, Luke. Thank you, Rhys. Okay, so moving forward, if we can highlight the petition and write to the five local Members of the Senedd regarding the correspondence—well, including the correspondence as well—with the petition, that would be really useful, and leave it to the local Members now, going forward. Close the petition. Is everybody in agreement? Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, Luke. Thank you, Rhys.

Moving on to petition P-06-1488, 'Establish a "Care Society" to Tackle the Long COVID Crisis in Wales', and this was submitted by Elizabeth Trombley with 260 signatures. Okay, could I invite Rhys just to take us through this?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. It's the second time we've considered this petition, and I believe you've met with the petitioners, Chair.

Yes.

The last occasion, we sought a co-ordinated response from the First Minister with regard to the Government's long-term strategy to deal with long COVID. We have had a response from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. We've also had responses from three relevant subject committees with regard to this matter. 

Now, the petitioner asks us as a committee to do specific matters: recommend a cross-committee scrutiny with regard to the matter, request a plenary debate, and support the establishment of a co-ordinated Government response to long COVID. Now, we've had some detailed responses from the Government. We welcome that; we're grateful for that. I'm not sure whether members of the committee feel that they would require any more specific details. This is a matter that is referred to on a regular basis in the Senedd. I'm not sure quite how much we as a committee can take this further on. Perhaps we could refer these answers to health committee. I know the special purpose inquiry on COVID will be having a debate soon, an issue to raise the matters on that occasion. But I can't see what else this committee can do, unless Members have a different view. My suggestion would be that we thank the petitioner and close this petition at this stage.

Okay. Anybody else like to speak on this matter? Okay. I did find it really useful meeting with the petitioners. I was surprised at how many are living with long COVID; I think it's 2 million in the UK. And in the letter of response from the Equality and Social Justice Committee, it highlighted that adjustments need to be made for those who want to go back to work, and adjustments need to be made and challenge assumptions and attitudes, really, regarding that. That was something that came across strongly from them, as well, that there were some members who could bring a lot to a workplace, as long as the employer understood that they would need to have time off if needed, or maybe different hours—if they could have that balance, it would be really, really helpful. I think that's something that resonated with me and stayed with me. It's something I can bring to debates going forward when we look at people living with disabilities such as this.

So, there's been a suggestion now to refer it again, the petition and the latest correspondence, to the Health and Social Care Committee. It is the specialist committee. It feels sometimes we're like the holding one, aren't we, and we send them to the specialist committee. So, if we could do that and then close the petition. Are we in agreement? Okay. Thank you. If we can do that, please.

Petition P-06-1491, 'We demand a fair deal for residents affected by the Arbed and CESP scheme'. This was submitted by Rhiannon Goodall, with a total of 606 signatures. Again, we met with the petitioners, which I found really useful, here with Members. Could I invite Luke to discuss the petition and any actions you think the committee could take?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. As I did last time, I declare an interest in this particular petition, as I've worked over the years with Rhiannon and a number of other residents on this issue, specifically in Caerau. It is an issue that has reared its head, actually, in a number of different places, Caerphilly being one of them, up in north Wales as well. I believe I heard Vaughan mentioning earlier that there's a patch within his constituency as well.

I understand that we've done quite a bit as a committee on this particular issue, and I know residents are quite grateful for that support. Just thinking about what I said earlier about things going to specific subject committees, I think this is one of those that would benefit from a particular subject committee looking at it. However, just thinking about the timeline of things now, I know ESJ had done that inquiry on the Warm Homes scheme, and issues that would arise in the future and how we deal with them. But we were unlucky, in a sense, that the committee's inquiry was already essentially done, and was going through the written report stage, so they weren't in a position to be able to take more evidence.

So, my only concern now is that we might be the only committee that will be looking at this particular issue, or will have this particular issue on file. So, what I would like to suggest to Members, for the time being at least, is that we keep this petition open and come back to it in six months' time, because there are a number of things that have been said by Welsh Government, Bridgend council and others around proactive things that are happening that I think it's worth keeping a watching brief on. In six months' time, we can return to this issue, and we'll probably be in a position where we would close that petition, but I just think, given that it's unlikely that any other committee will look at this issue, I would be grateful if the committee would just consider keeping this open for us to return to in six months' time.

Okay. Any views from Members? No. I agree with you. I have spoken to a local member regarding this, and he highlighted that there are meetings taking place now between the local authority and residents, and there are occasions when they can actually drop in and speak about the issues. I know you highlighted with me that it's the timings of those meetings sometimes. So, I will pick that up again.

I accept that the other committee has closed the inquiry now on Warm Homes. We can just keep it here for the next six months and see what happens. Like you said, there are places in Vaughan's area and I know in north Wales there are some homes that have been impacted by the Arbed scheme as well. So, we'll just keep it open behind the scenes, basically, while there are ongoing discussions, conversations and work. Okay. Happy with that? 

If we move on now, it's papers to note. There are two papers to note. Are we happy to note those? Okay. Thank you. 

That takes us to item 5, which concludes the public business. So, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you. Could we then go into private as we close the public session of the meeting?