National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. A record of proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Vaughan Gething has sent his apologies for the start of this meeting and will be joining us at 10.00 a.m. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? I can see there are not.

So, we'll move on now to agenda item 2, which is the first evidence session for this inquiry. I'm very pleased to welcome our guests and I'll ask them to please introduce themselves. So, if we start with Hayden, please. 

Hi, everybody. Good morning. My name is Hayden Llewellyn. I'm chief executive of the EWC—the Education Workforce Council—in Wales.

Thank you. 

Good morning, I'm Eithne Hughes, and I'm the chair of the Education Workforce Council for Wales.

Welcome. Members have a series of questions this morning, and I'd like to begin. What trends have you observed in teacher recruitment to initial teacher education programmes and the number of those successfully completing ITE programmes in the past 10 to 20 years, please? Who'd like to start?

I think I'll take that one, if that's okay, Eithne, yes?

Yes, lovely.

Okay. So, I think, as a bit of an introduction to that, it's worth saying that EWC's data on recruitment and retention is particularly strong and it's unique in Wales, really. I think it's fair to say that we have the strongest and most detailed data source, and we've been tracking recruitment and retention for 25 years, all of our existence. So, specifically, in terms of ITE, we're seeing a very clear pattern. Firstly, on primary recruitment, Wales is okay. We're able to recruit the primary numbers that we need. So, just to quote some statistics to you, there are two main areas that the EWC can refer to here. It's, firstly, the number of places that Welsh Government want to allocate to partnerships—so, it's the number they want to train. And then we can also quote you the number that come out the other end, following their training. 

So, on primary, the Welsh Government is looking for around about 600 new teachers to be trained each year, and there's no problem recruiting those individuals. Actually, the partnerships can overtrain and have on some occasions overtrained. So, in August 2024, when we issued the qualified teacher status certificate, we issued 636 certificates on the traditional routes. There were some further awards via the Open University route. And the Welsh Government are looking to train about 600. So, on primary, no problem, and that's been the case consistently over the years.

Secondary is different, and we're starting to see a rather stark picture. So, the Welsh Government is seeking to train around about 1,000 secondary teachers each year. But the number of certificates that the EWC issued in August 2024, through the more traditional routes, was 369. So, really, about a third of the number of secondary teachers that Wales is looking for we're managing to train. There are some further numbers via the Open University route, but the number of secondary there is rather small: 34 new teachers last year, via that route. In terms of that trend—you mentioned the last 10 to 20 years—secondary is getting worse. We saw some improvement in the COVID years, where the number of new secondary teachers via the university partnerships was up to about 600, but it's dropped back significantly. And I'm sorry to say, having tracked recruitment and retention for many years, I can't really see secondary improving. 

If you pan into secondary in more detail, some subjects are rather concerning. So, some secondary subjects are absolutely fine: PE, history, geography, subjects like that, recruitment—art—is okay. But some subjects, such as maths, English, the sciences, Welsh, modern foreign language, are particularly low. So, again, I'll just quote you a couple of figures. The new number of maths teachers that was turned out in August 2024: 27 new maths teachers. Wales is looking for about 130, and it's the lowest that I've ever seen over the years. Welsh, I'll quote you that as well: 20 new Welsh teachers. Wales is looking for more around 80 to 90. So, it's really secondary that is the concern. I'm sure that some of the further questions will be about the Welsh language and ethnicity and so on, so I'll stop there, and Eithne may want add to the statistical analysis that I've given.

I don't really want to add anything to that at all, because I think that some of the questions coming afterwards will flesh out some of the areas that we would want to bring to your attention around causes and potential solutions. So, I think that we have been briefed that they may well come a bit later. 

Okay. Thank you for that answer. Which subjects have seen the greatest changes, and to what extent are secondary school teachers not teaching the subjects they were trained in? 

Thank you. I'll take that one again. So, I was starting to move into that area, breaking some of the figures down, so I'll expand on my answer. So, just to confirm really, it is the traditionally quoted shortage subjects in secondary that are very much the problem. So, as I've indicated already, in terms of recruitment, it is the likes of maths and English and modern foreign languages and sciences and Welsh that very much seem to be the problem, in terms of secondary subjects.

In terms of whether one is teaching a subject they've trained in, I think that that's a really good question. EWC data—and previously when we were known as the General Teaching Council for Wales—has shown consistently that, in those sorts of subjects, you do on occasion get a teacher who's not qualified in those particular subjects teaching them. We've not really seen much deterioration over the years, but again, to quote you some figures, EWC data shows, in respect of maths, that about 75 per cent who are teaching maths are actually trained in the subject. If you look at the sciences, it is a bit more fiddly because, obviously, you've got specific sciences like chemistry, physics and biology, and then you have got general science. But, generally speaking, you will see that number lower.

I think that one of the interesting observations, when you look at whether one is teaching the subject they're trained in, is if you make comparisons to other countries. So, Scotland is the country that I always refer to, because in Scotland you cannot teach a subject that you're not trained in. On the register of teachers in Scotland, any teacher is registered against a specific subject or a specific phase. So, if you're trained in primary, you can't teach secondary, and vice versa. Similarly, if you're trained in, say, geography, you can't teach maths. We've always had a situation in Wales where you can move between phases, and you can move between subjects. So, it's always been the case, unfortunately, that you've had individuals not teaching subjects they're trained in. I think, given the difficulties with recruitment, that we could see that picture deteriorating.

Can I just—

Yes.

If I could just add to that. Is that okay?

Yes, and then Carolyn can come in. Yes, go on, then.

I think that the other thing is people teaching several subjects at the same time as well—not just their subject specialism, but possibly a couple of others—adding to the workload pressures of an individual teacher within that setting. I think that becomes an issue when you have got reduced funding, and you have got headteachers actually just having to have somebody in front of classes. It doesn't support standards. It doesn't help improve the situation in terms of the ability of children to grasp that subject. And it causes a huge amount of pressure for that individual teacher, trying to keep one or two steps ahead of the class. That isn't a way, really, to keep standards high within the area. Thank you.

I'll bring Carolyn Thomas in quickly here.

Yes, I was going to ask you your opinion, then: if a person hasn't been trained in that subject and they have been asked to teach others, what are the effects of that? I think that, as far as I know, many teachers have taught two subjects or more, especially PE teachers. So, just your opinion on that. But I got that, so that's fine.

If I can just come in, I think it’s well known in research terms that you need several things in order to teach a subject, but, critically, you need subject specialism. If it’s a second subject, okay, that subject specialism is there, but the one you really want to teach is your first subject area. And the second area we talk about is the fact that the pedagogical approach to that second subject, or the subject you’ve been asked to teach, needs to be honed to subject specialism as well. It's really difficult to teach a subject well if (1) you don't know the subject well, and (2) you haven't got the pedagogical approach in order to deliver that subject in a classroom. And both of those things affect standards and affect your own well-being and workload pressures, because you're not secure in the knowledge that you're going to be able to deliver that to a very high quality. So, it has all sorts of rippling effects.

Thank you.

I think I'd like to add to that briefly, if I may, and bring Eithne back in as a former headteacher and director of the Association of School and College Leaders as well. One piece of feedback I've received consistently over the years is that, as a bit of a tangent to what we're discussing there, as well as there being a lack of particular types of teachers in schools—say, for example, maths—there's also a lack of subject specialists in local authorities or regional consortia that can come into schools to help those individual teachers and departments. We seem to be seeing issues there in Wales as well, in particular subjects specifically. Eithne, you might want to add to that with your expertise.

I think—and, again, as I say, it's well grounded in research—that high-quality professional learning around a subject area that you want to teach, where you can collaborate with other colleagues who understand, know and get that subject area, is absolutely critical to the health and well-being of that system and the delivery of the subject. When you have people working in isolation, possibly out of their subject area, that really isn't going to encourage growth, creativity and teacher leadership. Teacher leadership in a subject area where you can learn from your peers is vital. And it's not an expensive solution for things, it's one that just works. And we see that in a lot of countries across the world.

Thank you. What are the particular challenges for secondary priority subjects and Welsh-speaking teachers and those able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and specifically for those training to be teachers in priority subjects through the medium of Welsh?

Again, I'll begin here by giving you the data. So, we all know that Wales set a target of a million Welsh speakers in 2050. So, first thing, in terms of teachers who are on the register, we've been able to look at, consistently, the number of teachers who speak Welsh, the number of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh, and similarly headteachers and supply teachers and so on, and the number of teachers on the register who can speak Welsh is 33 per cent. And what's interesting there is that even though that's above the census figure, it's not changed or improved over the years. So, even though Wales has introduced a number of initiatives to try and increase the number of Welsh speakers, we're not seeing the number of Welsh-speaking teachers improve. And when you come to learning support staff, who are a central component in schools, that number's lower. So, that's the first point I'd make.

In terms of teacher training, Welsh Government, when it allocates the numbers for the EWC to share out in terms of training numbers, it's looking for the university partnerships to deliver 30 per cent of their provision through the medium of Welsh. Partnerships are not hitting those figures, but they're having a good go to recruit the numbers—they really are. But the figures that are being turned out in terms of when we're issuing certificates, when we can see who's been trained, it's around about the 20 per cent mark on primary and 18 per cent on secondary. So, it's not hitting the 30 per cent.

When you magnify that down into particular subjects, you see those figures dropping. I've already reported the numbers and how low they are in the priority subjects to get any teaching numbers through, so when you move to Welsh medium, they're particularly low. I'll quote you a couple. So, the 27 new maths teachers that we turned out through the university routes in August 2024, just three of those were through the medium of Welsh, and of the seven new physics teachers that we turned out, two of those were through the medium of Welsh. So, I think you can see the challenges there. And I know Eithne and I have given evidence before to the committee on Welsh language and recruitment, and I think it's fair to say that any challenges you see in schools in terms of recruitment, they're just magnified when it comes to Welsh. So, if you speak, and I'm sure you will, to secondary heads in Welsh-medium schools, they'll tell you it's really, really tough to get any new teacher in in priority subjects when it's Welsh medium. It's just very challenging.

Thank you. Eithne, would you like to add to that, or—?

I think one of the things I would add from experience as a headteacher in an English-medium school, trying to recruit a head of Welsh or a second in Welsh or Welsh teachers into English-medium schools was also extremely difficult, because many would wish to go to Welsh-medium schools, but of course you want to also teach Welsh well within an English-medium school. So, it's magnified right across the sector; whether you're an English-medium school or a Welsh-medium school, it is not an easy situation at all.

Thank you for those answers. I now have some questions from Cefin Campbell, please. 

Diolch. I'll ask this question in English and the following two yn Gymraeg. So, what are the trends in the numbers of teachers being trained in England and teaching in Wales? And to what do you attribute any changes? Does the country of training have an impact on their ability to support the Welsh Government's education reform and become familiar with the national curriculum in Wales, and so on? Are there challenges there, having been trained in England? 

Thank you. I'll take that one again. Good morning, Cefin. I think this is a really interesting area to look at, and it's a trend that we've seen changing, actually. Again, I'll quote you numbers on this one. We were seeing a trend in and around 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, where we were seeing more Welsh youngsters moving to England to do their teacher training, then coming back to Wales to seek employment. The universities they were going to were the ones quite near to the border, so as you'd imagine, north Walians heading to Liverpool or Manchester or Chester, or in south Wales heading to areas like Bristol and so on. So, that was what was happening, and I'll quote you some numbers because we saw the trend increasing significantly. So, in 2020, 287 of our newly qualified teachers in Wales were from Wales, did their training in England, and came back to seek work in Wales and register with the EWC. In 2021, it went up to 303. In 2022, it went up again to 354. So, in one respect, this was really helpful, because it was boosting our number of newly qualified teachers. However, the downside was that these individuals were not going through the accredited programmes in Wales, so they were not being exposed to Cwricwlwm Cymreig and all of the cultural aspects in terms of training and teaching in Wales. And also the majority were actually primary rather than secondary. But what we've now seen over the last three years is that number, which was going up, up, up, up, up, now going down rather significantly, Cefin. So the figure for 2023, it had gone down to 273. In 2024, down to 203. And now the most recent figure for this year, we're down to 168 Welsh youngsters who went to England, did their training and came back to register with EWC.

So, I think, again, I would say that's a bit concerning, because that was adding to our teacher numbers, our newly qualified teachers, but it's not anymore. We know England has very much got its own challenges with recruitment—far more significant than Wales, actually. And I know Jack Worth is giving evidence later, and he'll be able to talk to you about that. But, Cefin, to answer your question, we've seen a deterioration, and to answer the other part of your question, even when it was happening, it probably wasn't ideal because these individuals were going through a different type of training.

Eithne, would you like to add to that?

No, nothing to add to that.

Okay, thank you. 

I'm happy to start with this one, if that's okay. The first thing I will say, because I don't want to catastrophise everything, is that teaching is a brilliant profession. People go into teaching in order to make a difference to children. They want to work with children, form good relationships, and they will generally have a love of the subject that has inspired them to go into that space.

On the downside of it, to answer your question without trying to give you a long list of problems, but I probably will end up doing that anyway, there are barriers around the business of workload. I think that's one that you'll probably hear again and again: workload, work-life balance that are punishing; policy overload that doesn't always—. We don't always have policy that is coherent and pulling in one direction. Pay is a constant issue that is discussed, where you have got this profession that doesn't always have comparable pay with other professions. You have those issues.

If you're a child in a classroom, for example, just to take it through that lens, and there are behaviour problems—and we've seen exclusion rates rise in Wales according to the latest data—and you can see the teacher struggling to get behaviour into check and trying to teach the subject, and you've got attendance issues, you're going to say, 'Why would I want to do that?' So, you're in the thick of it and you wouldn't necessarily see that as an option in terms of a career for yourself.

From the other side of it, from a teacher's point of view or a headteacher's point of view, you have funding issues where you have got less money and you're expected to do more, larger class sizes, you'll be in a space of possibly making redundancies, reducing option choices for children at secondary level. Then you've got that laser-light focus on key stage 4 in terms of accountability, and at key stage 5, and those core subjects have got the sharpest and hottest spotlight on them because of the accountability system.

It's not an anti-accountability thing I'm saying—there has to be accountability—but there's got to be a balance within the system that allows the profession to flourish and to grow with good career progression, timely professional learning, and to get back the joy that brought a teacher into the profession in the first place to say, 'Yes, I can make a difference and, yes, I do love what I'm doing'. These things get in the way of that initial approach into the profession, if you get that far with it. I hope that isn't too miserable a response. 

It's what we hear when we visit schools and when we speak to headteachers.

Hayden, did you want to come in here? 

Yes please, Chair, thank you. One of the comparisons I often make in this area—. EWC works with regulators in many other professions—so doctors, lawyers, nurses, accountants, social workers, but also private business as well—so we all talk about recruitment and retention. But one of the analogies that's quite interesting is if you make comparison to business, to commerce, if you talk to successful businesspeople or you talk to business gurus, they often talk about four Ps. So, you need a good product in a good place, properly promoted, and at a good price, so it's four Ps.

You can transfer that to looking at professions, and if you look at teaching in Wales you can talk about all of those Ps, but the one particularly—and Eithne actually referred to all of them—is the product: what it means to be a teacher on a day-to-day basis in terms of workload, stress, bureaucracy, accountability, lack of autonomy and pupil behaviour is a tough gig. When you look at wider system issues as well, more and more Government initiatives, changes all of the time, it's tough. When you've got a well-qualified graduate with a maths degree or a physics degree or a linguist, they've got choices, and the reality is to be convinced to be a teacher is increasingly unlikely.

If you look at another P, the price, the salary for a teacher, it's okay in Wales. But again, if you make comparisons, a new teacher in Ireland attracts €44,000; a new teacher in Scotland is slightly higher than Wales. If you've driven around Wales recently and been behind a bus, they're advertising for new bus drivers, and it's all the way across Wales, starting salary £28,000, which is not much less than a teacher. So, I'm not saying it's all about money, by any means, but that P is an issue.

Then in terms of the other ones, how do you promote something that is a really tough gig? I'm sure there'll be people who come in and see you who'll say, 'Ah, yes, we need a really flashy, shiny, really good promotional campaign'. Well, if what you're trying to promote isn't good, it won't work.

And then, finally, the place. Wales is a great place; it's a great place to work, but the school environment is tough. So, have a little think about that analogy, because I think what Eithne and I are saying is treat the causes of why we're seeing issues around recruitment, not the symptoms. We need to get to the root of what's not attractive. I think, Eithne, that's what we're saying, isn't it?

Yes, it definitely is. As I say, if you see it through the eyes of children who might wish to move into that space, you can see teachers under pressure, you can see behaviour problems, you see that bureaucracy and workload pressure, and why would you wish to do something when that has been modelled day after day after day in your own situation?

I think the other thing I would say, just to add to what Hayden's talked about there, is that the public perception of the profession is that it's underappreciated. I think it's not seen as a proper profession, one that's comparable with the medical profession, for example, or others in that area. I also think that schools are in a position where the infrastructure around them doesn't support, necessarily, the work that they wish to do, and that, again, is down to funding.

Nobody wants this to be bad; everybody wants it to work for the children in their area. But you've got very impoverished structures that help with mental health and support for children, social services, and all of those support mechanisms can't be the responsibility solely of the school. It's impossible for schools to be all things to all people and to do more with less.

Thank you for those last comments. They really are interesting, particularly the one about treating the causes, but I'll move on to my next question.

Shall I start on this one, Eithne? You might want to come in on this, particularly being based in north Wales, I think. This is an interesting one and not a question I've been asked before either. The current arrangement we have is that when Professor John Furlong was brought in by the Welsh Government to reform initial teacher training, and his subsequent report, 'Teaching Tomorrow's Teachers', he did look at various models, whether things were done on a regional basis, whether there was one provider in Wales, whether there was, in effect, an open economy for any partnership to be constructed and come forward with a programme for accreditation.

He looked at all the different models, and previously there were, in effect, three regional partnerships in Wales with pairs of universities working together. So, all is possible, really. The current model is, as I say, the open economy, where any partnership can be put together in any format. It's got to have lead schools and it's got to have the university presence there, but it is a possibility. At the minute, we have the five university providers plus the Open University that delivers salary and part-time routes. So, yes, open to it. The indication at the minute is that the newly constructed programmes are successful. They're certainly more robust than arrangements we had before, which were deemed to be, maybe, not as robust as they could be. But, yes, it's a possibility. Eithne, being based in north Wales, you might have a view on this.

I think it's worth exploring. I think a model that is already successful is the Master's programme, which is across the universities in the country. I think what needs to be explored is that there are no cold spots within delivery of subject areas. There are already issues around rurality and trying to recruit into areas of rurality, so that would need not to be exacerbated in any recreation of this particular model. And also it's the fact that people need to get into schools. Obviously, you have to travel a long way in order to have your subject area delivered. So, there needs to be a practical consideration as well as a model that would be fit for purpose. So, I think those would be the only comments I would make on that, but it's certainly worth exploring.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Carolyn Thomas, please. 

Thank you, Chair. Just on that subject that Cefin was asking you about, we're doing career pathways as well for post-16 education, and it just prompted me to a thought. I've had an e-mail regarding a university in north Wales dropping language subjects—particularly German—and I met with the cruise ship industry, which is growing in north Wales, and particularly with German-speaking travellers. So, I just feel it's not very joined up. So, do we look at ensuring that there are specific subjects taught in specific areas for that career pathway going forward for that area?

If I just come in on this one very quickly with one observation. I think one of the things you'll see is that the number of learners at A-level within those subject areas, for example German, French, and, sadly, Welsh as well, who are taking that subject to the highest level within their school setting or an FE setting is reducing year on year. When you've also got, as I say, funding problems where you've got a headteacher with possibly only eight children who want to take German GCSE, that subject may not even be on the table because it's unaffordable given the funding pressures on a school. That washes forward into who then would be your recruits for teaching that subject. That's just a straightforward observation on that. Hayden has already pointed to some of the core subjects and the difficulties in recruiting into those, and while there are targets and people wish to get to those numbers, if the people aren't there, it's extremely difficult to make that delivery at all. Thank you.

Chair, can I add to that, please? Thank you. The key point I'd make on this—and we'll probably revisit this as we keep talking—is that I think the view of EWC that they keep reiterating, and Cefin said it as well, is just focusing on ITE will not fix recruitment; it just will not, because you can fiddle around with ITE, you can create more routes, you can change delivery, but you've got to make teaching attractive. The EWC will keep going back to what are the causes of why we're seeing a decline in recruitment, particularly in the core subjects, that those graduates have alternative career choices.

So, I think, yes, we can spend time on ITE. We can tweak it. We can look at that. We can introduce new routes. And the EWC is very open—completely open—to new and different routes. They’ve just got to be of the right quality. What we can’t do is dampen down the quality of training and the quality of teaching. So, we would keep going back to, 'Look, let’s get at those causes'. It’s really hard, and they're things for Government around how do you fix workload, how do you fix behaviour, how do you fix accountability, how do you fix additional learning needs. They’re the tough ones, but if Government doesn’t get after them, we’re going to see a continued deterioration, I’m afraid, like in other countries, because this is a global issue.

Okay. Thank you. I'm going to ask some questions on the diversity of the workforce now. So, to what extent does the diversity of the workforce represent the diversity of the population of Wales, in terms of gender, ethnicity and disability?

Okay, I’ll quote you the numbers again. Again, the EWC's data on the register of practitioners records all of this. So, gender is very interesting, because teaching has always been a female-dominated profession. Over 75 per cent of teachers in Wales are female. When you come to leadership, that does change actually. There are more leaders—so, heads and deputies and assistants—in secondary, who are male rather than female. In primary, it’s more female, but not as significant as the 75 per cent of the whole of the population. So, gender is different.

Ethnicity is very interesting. The register shows that it’s just 1.9 per cent of teachers in Wales who are from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds. That compares to 15 per cent of pupils, and is also, obviously, lower than the census as well. In terms of recruitment to initial teacher education, the Welsh Government have set a target or an objective to the training providers for 5 per cent of their places to be involving black, Asian and minority ethnic trainees. And the partnerships are having a good go at it, actually. You’re seeing recruitment and delivery of around about that 5 per cent of the students. So, ITE partnerships are making efforts there, and they have various programmes to try and recruit individuals. So, there is an under-representation.

In terms of disability, again, the EWC statistics do show an under-representation in the workforce of teachers and support staff with disabilities. Although I will say, in that regard, that there does be a trend that, where people are asked to declare whether they have a disability or not, they often don’t. Individuals sometimes worry what might come if they declare a disability. So, I’ve always said that the figures in the EWC’s registration statistics are probably an under-representation.

So, in summary, you will see some differences in terms of the demographic of teachers and support staff, compared to pupils and also the general population.

Thank you. I think you touched on my second question about the extent of the Welsh Government’s initiative to recruit black, Asian or minority ethnic professionals to education, and how successful it is being at the moment. So, is it early stages, or do you think it’s working?

I would say it's early stages. The EWC does a little bit of work, with a small amount of funding from the Welsh Government, to operate in this area. So, we’re a very small team that attends events and various occasions to try and encourage recruitment to all of the education professions, not just teachers, but support staff, FE, work-based learning, and youth work. We have one member of staff from a non-white community who works significantly in the communities. There’s good engagement, but, really, an awful lot of work to do to try and encourage individuals from different communities to think about working in education. But, it's absolutely important. It should absolutely happen, and I’d like to see more funding move towards EWC and other agencies, by Government, to work with communities to talk about rewarding careers in education.

Thank you. Thank you, Carolyn. We now have some questions from Natasha, please.

Thank you so much, Chair. Good morning, both. You've mentioned some of the trends over the past few years, particularly when it comes to teaching and in relation to retention. Have there been any other significant changes over the past 10 to 20 years? I'd like to know if there are any specific retention issues in regard to certain subjects. I am personally aware that there are issues with science—for example, physics and chemistry, et cetera. We are aware of the Welsh language being part of the Welsh Government's agenda of having a million Welsh speakers. So, I'd really love to hear it from your perspective. And, geographically, do you find that there are more issues with retention in, potentially, different parts of Wales—so, more so in the north than in the south? It could be the complete opposite, but I'd love to hear your perspective on those.

Eithne, shall I start again by quoting the figures?

Yes, please.

Okay. Retention is an interesting one, and a few of you in the room will have heard the EWC comment on this before, and sometimes other agencies or trade unions take a different view, but what I can say is what the data shows. What the data in Wales has showed over 25 years and currently is that—. I'm not saying we don't have retention issues, and I'll expand on that in a minute, but retention of teachers in Wales is better than in England and in a number of other countries. What our data shows, and what we're able to do through the register—what the EWC's register of practitioners gives you—is we know who's working in Wales, we know where they're working, we know when they joined, we know when they leave. So, there are two things that we observe. One of the things we often do is we take a cohort of teachers,—so, those who were working and registered with the EWC in 2019—and ask, five years on, were they still working and registered with us. We can do the same for 10 years, 15 years, one year or two years. But what you see from that five-year pattern, and I think it's a good one to look at, is that 75 per cent of the teachers in 2019 are still with us in 2024. And if you took 2018-23, or any other period, it's pretty much the same. It has not really changed.

So, what does that mean in actual numbers? It equates to about 2,400 teachers that leave the register every year, and again that's been pretty consistent. It went down during the COVID years when the Welsh Government had money to put to schools to have more teachers and support staff—you saw the retention numbers being better. But consistently it's been around about 2,400 teachers that leave the register each year. And if you break those leavers down, there's not really anything troubling in there. Slightly more primary teachers leave than secondary each year, which is an indicator that we've got enough primary teachers. Quite a number of supply teachers leave each year. But you don't see a predominance of particular ages or particular phases or in particular areas of Wales.

The only word of caution I would give on retention is that we need to watch it really carefully because it's okay when you lose individuals from a profession and you're recruiting the number you need back, but, as we've said, we're fine on primary, but we are recruiting nowhere near the number of secondary and Welsh-medium teachers that we need. Attrition is okay if you're replacing, but I think therein lies the problem. We're losing about 2,400 a year; it's not going up, but it's already pretty tricky at the minute because we're not replacing them, and if we start to see more leaving, which is possible because of the way teaching is becoming such a tough career, I think we've just got to watch that dynamic ever so carefully.

Hayden, thank you so much for your answer. I really do appreciate it and I appreciate the figures that you gave us at the beginning of the questioning, with regard to the figures per year over the last four to five years. But you mentioned that there are significant teachers leaving the profession including primary and supply—you said 2,400 in your response just now. So, my next question is going to be: what are some of the common reasons for them leaving the profession and is there any support that can be provided to them? I appreciate that you said in one of your previous answers to my colleagues here in the committee that the structure of teaching, the way that things are in schools needs to be looked at, and that's fine and we can look into that as a committee, for sure, but I just wanted to ask for your perspective. From a training angle, in a supportive sense, is there anything more that can be done to ensure that those teachers don't leave?

I'm happy to come in on that. I think that some of those issues are—. We talk about school improvement; I think that there needs to be system improvement, where the system is looking to make sure that there is good career progression—that does need to be better, that professional learning is iterative, it is timely, it is contextualised, depending on the school that a person is in, and the type of school and type of area that that person works in. And if you look and think about career progression for a teacher who starts, you have got a period of induction, and induction, I would argue, should be better in terms of mentoring, coaching and working through that business of academic rigour and practical application. Nobody can get the job of teaching under their belt within a couple of years. It's too big, and teaching and learning is messy. So, there does need to be a continuous pathway of professional learning of very high quality. That would support the profession where you have got, as I say, people who can talk about their subject to other subject leaders in different schools who can share what's good, what isn't good in a way that isn't threatening, and who can work together with this peer approach to leadership and, as I say, professional learning of a higher quality than we've currently got. And I think that those would be structural things that could support the profession in terms of making it more interesting and better. 

There are so many other things that we could talk about within this space as well. The question is a massive one. But, it's not about quick fixes, it's not about shiny things that are going to make—. The low-hanging fruit—it's not about that. It's about systemic differences to the profession that isn't expecting a teacher to be a social worker, a policewoman, a medical expert—this, that and the other. We have to allow the business of teaching and the leadership of teaching to be at the core of what it is that teachers are actually doing, rather than all the other stuff that is a distraction.

The other thing I would just mention is that, when a teacher progresses, it tends to be that they progress because they have more responsibility, they have other things added on that don't necessarily keep them in the classroom. That isn't necessarily the best way forward, because again you're asking for more things that are outside a classroom environment. We want those people to be with the children, working closely with them and understanding the profession and what it is that they do in order to help those children progress and work their way through the system. I think those are key for me in terms of what needs to be done. 

The other, final thing, because I could bang on about this all day, is about that coherence of policy, as a couple of key things that the whole country knows they need to do in order to make a difference to the children in front of them, instead of trying to do everything—what is it that's going to make a difference in policy terms to standards, to the work-life balance of teachers so that they get the joy of the profession that they came into. And I think that those levers are very important to try to make sure that we're pulling on. Thank you.

Thank you. I have a question from Joel James, very briefly, please.

Yes, very brief. Thank you, Chair. It's just a quick question, really—well, two quick questions if I can. I read in your written evidence that, in Welsh-medium school environments, the retention rate is slightly higher compared to English-medium schools. I was just wondering why that was, if there was any evidence that you've seen as to why that might be. And then the other question I wanted to ask is: obviously, we saw the coverage, I think back in April, about Gwynedd Council looking to phase out English language education, and what impact do you think that's going to have on teacher retention, if any at all? The feedback I've been getting from some people is that they are considering leaving the profession, actually, if they proceed with that, because they don't speak Welsh. I was just keen to get your opinions there. Thank you.

I can only probably offer a little on those two. Firstly, in terms of the Welsh retention, yes, it is slightly higher over that five-year period—79 per cent as compared to 75 per cent—but it's not a significant number, really; it's broadly comparable. So, it is slightly higher. I'd probably only attribute it to perhaps certain areas of Wales, rural areas—north Wales, Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire—where somebody living in the area has got that commitment to stay, but we'll keep tracking those figures.

In terms of the second one, regarding Gwynedd, it's not a matter I'm familiar with, I'm afraid. So, I'm sorry, but I can't offer too much on those questions. Eithne, not sure if you can help.

[Inaudible.] We'll now move on to questions from Vaughan, please.

Yes, bore da, and thank you. I've managed to listen in to a good amount of the evidence. The questions that I had, I think some of them have been answered, so I want to try and move from some of the points that have been raised. But in the points you've made about recruitment and retention, I'm interested in how they specifically relate to school leaders and the wider workforce, and whether, in your data, you can see that there are differences in either sectors or geographic areas. And I guess in sectors, not just primary and secondary, but how much that goes into subjects, because we understand in the recruitment, there's a challenge in recruitment—we see the figures and how that isn't working regardless of financial incentives. But I'd like to address the point about school leaders and if there is a geographic difference, and, if so, what that is. Is it as simple as north-south or is it a socioeconomic difference as well? So, I think that would be helpful to get your understanding. Then I'll try and ask a question about what we might do about it.

I'll speak briefly on the data, but I think Eithne's really well-placed to talk on this one because of her former background. But data-wise, what you see with leaders is that—and local authorities, of course, are very well-placed to talk about this—you do see, in certain areas, failures to recruit to leadership positions. So, there'll be local authority directors who will come in and talk to you, who advertise certain headteacher posts four times. They just can't recruit. And that seems to be exacerbated in rural areas and also in Welsh schools, Welsh-medium provision.

So, what the EWC's data shows is that, yes, leadership, it's challenging. In all the challenges we've talked about already for teachers, they're just even harder when it comes to being a leader of a school, whether that's in primary, secondary, ALN, wherever it might be. And it is hard to recruit high-quality leaders. And our data does show that, sometimes, in rural areas, in certain Welsh heartlands, that is just harder and schools fail to recruit or have somebody acting up for quite a long period. So, that is what we see. Eithne, obviously, you've got an awful lot of background in this area; maybe you can help me.

You're muted, Eithne. I still struggle with the mute button, even after everything else.

There we go. [Laughter.] I shouldn't by now—hopeless. Yes, I think it's—. It's well-known, I think, but this is anecdotal as well, that the business, as Hayden was just saying, of school leadership vacancies that are going out again and again and again with very few good-quality people applying for them is certainly something that I know, from my ASCL days, was something my members were struggling with.

I think schools that have got high levels of deprivation are not always schools that headteachers wish to go into, or indeed other staff, because the problems that are there are clearly going to be more keenly felt at the very sharp end of things. And also, rurality is clearly going to be an issue as well. So, some of the things are around pressures on leadership, and they are significant, and I could give a list, and, this list, below each list is another list of problems that come with it. So, issues around accountability, where not everything that moves not everything that moves is measured, but it certainly feels like that sometimes, particularly at key stage 4 and key stage 5—new qualifications that are coming in that you have to make sure staff training is around because, again, with accountability being so sharply focused at key stage 4, you need to make sure that all of that training is there.

The pressure around budgets can't be underestimated. That is, you have to constantly make sure there is a teacher in front of that class; you have no choice. If your budget is such that you can't afford that, you start to increase class sizes, and you're making teaching assistants and learning support workers redundant. Those people are absolutely vital in the support of these youngsters, and I know we've put in our evidence that they are a group that we would really like to give evidence on, because they're key to the health of the whole system.

Work-life balance over the COVID period of time: headteachers were basically on duty 24/7, including the weekends, and the pay and conditions document didn't support the fact that there needed to be a work-life balance in terms of the number of hours that a headteacher worked, and that was extraordinarily difficult, and I know that will, or I'm hoping that will, be looked at very carefully. Being a headteacher is a lonely place to be; you have downward pressure from local authorities, and it's not, as I say, about not being accountable; you have to be accountable, this is public money, and these are children's futures. But that accountability system needs to also allow for autonomy, creativity, and for people to do what they know is in the best interests of those children within the context of the school that you serve.

The one-size-fits-all thing doesn't work, and it just basically shoehorns people into a space of pressure rather than of improving standards. There is little time in the job for reflection. It is, basically, not a treadmill, because it's also, as I said at the beginning, Vaughan, a very fulfilling career, and one that I certainly loved when I did it, but the pressure is also very, very intense. And that time for reflection, the time for self-evaluation, which Estyn has pointed out, is not always good within a school system—. If you don't have time to do that because you're firefighting and constantly dealing with what's in front of you, rather than looking at the direction of travel for your school and setting a vision for it and making sure that strategy falls from that, then you're never going to get ahead of the game, and you're never going to be able to actually drive your school forward.

On top of that, I think just a couple of other things. Obviously, if you can't get the staff there that are going to continually improve standards, because they're not there to bring in, there's an added pressure, which is an obvious one that the committee is looking at. I would also argue that governing bodies also need good, high-quality training in order that they are both challenging and supportive of the school setting, the headteacher, the senior leaders within the system as well. And I said that would be two things. I'm going to go for a third one, which is the business of policy and system coherence. There is too much swirling around the system that doesn't necessarily actually affect the quality of a child's education. And we talk about gaps; we talk about the gaps for children with free school meals, gender gaps, and so forth. One of the biggest gaps, in my view, is between policy and the child. The policy has to affect the child in a positive way, obviously, and not damage people as it moves through.

Look, I'd like to ask lots more questions, but I know we're coming up short for time. Maybe I could ask a question now that you could think about when Joel asks one of his questions, because, when you were here before us previously, I didn't get to ask properly about other workforce members. We know that there are the support staff around the school as well, and I understand there are pressures on recruitment and retention there. But, previously, you told us you were doing some work with the Government on looking at incentives and understanding what could work. I know Joel's going to ask a question about that, so, when you consider Joel's question, I'd be really interested in where that work is and when we might see it, because we're not just interested in having another policy intervention, we're interested in what works.

And my other questions were about cuts, something I think you've covered on challenges in making the profession attractive, with all the wider societal pressures. So, I won't press those, but I'll be interested in the work on incentives when Joel asks his final two questions.

Okay. Thank you, Vaughan, and thank you for being so understanding that we're running well over time as well. I'll now hand over to Joel James, please.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, Vaughan read my mind there with one of the questions. I know, back in September, the Cabinet Secretary highlighted a range of bursaries and incentive schemes that are used to encourage people into the teaching workforce and to keep them there. I just wanted to get your idea about how successful they've been, really, and could more be done, maybe. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. So, in respect of incentives, the EWC was asked by Welsh Government. We did it for post-16 a few years ago, but have only just been asked to do and undertaken the work on incentives in relation to school teachers. So, what we have just done, just finished, is we've been given data by Welsh Government of who received incentive payments and have mapped that to the register to see if those individuals are still working. In other words, is the money that's paid out successful in turning those individuals into teachers and keeping them? We've literally just finished the work and supplied the information to Welsh Government—literally now. So, I can't give you the results, and it wouldn't be appropriate anyway, because the owners of that data are the Welsh Government, not the EWC, but what I can say is we've completed the work. We did it for post-16 a few years ago, now we've done it for school teachers, and that information is with officials.

[Inaudible.]—chase then with the Welsh Government. My last question, really, is, obviously, the Education Workforce Council, one of the main aims there is to promote teaching as a viable career option, and I was just wondering how that is evaluated, how the work that you do is evaluated, if that makes sense. Thank you.

Thank you. The EWC is quite a small player in this area, but it is one of the players. The EWC receives a small amount of funding from Welsh Government—so, this is not funded by registrants through the registration fees, because promotional activity can be really expensive, and registration fees wouldn't be able to pay for that. But EWC receives a small amount of funding from Welsh Government to do two things. It was asked to develop and maintain a website where there was information about careers and education, and also so that local authorities, schools and FE colleges can advertise their jobs for free, because millions of pounds of Welsh money is being spent on commercial adverts. So, we were asked to develop the website, we've done it, it's proving successful, but I would like to see more authorities and schools moving their spend away from commerce to using that money in a better way. And then we have a small team that's in careers events trying to promote careers. So, we are only a small player in this area. Obviously, Welsh Government invests money in promotion; local authorities and employers and agencies, and also ITE providers, also have responsibilities for promoting careers. So, EWC is just one partner.

What I will say is what we're finding when we have our teams in careers fairs and in the communities is what I said earlier: you can't—. It's really hard to promote something where the product, the offer, the deal, the gig isn't necessarily right. It's Eithne and I going back to saying to you as a committee, look, unless we deal with these hard things, these causes of why teaching is unattractive and deal with a couple of priorities—not too many, because in Wales we've continually chucked everything up in the air, tried to tackle too many things: new curriculum, national mission, lots and lots of things. You've got to bring about fundamental change really carefully. But when our teams are in the careers fairs, they're finding that graduates have choices: they can go and work for a big accountancy company starting on £45,000 and a car, they can work for the security services, they can work in the cyber industry—all being paid more money and not with the same sort of pressures as teachers. So, what I would say, Joel, in answer to your question, is what our experience is in trying to promote the profession is that, unless we tackle the fundamentals, you're trying to promote something that people don't want. It's the same as a product, a record or something people don't want; you've got to get it right. It's really hard.

Okay, thank you. Unfortunately, we've now run out of time; I think we could keep you here all day. Thank you so much for your time, we really appreciate you joining us today, and you'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you again for joining us—

Chair, if I may, there are some bits we didn't quite get to. Would it be okay if we were able to write to EWC? I think some written follow-up would be really helpful, particularly given what you've been saying about the product and needing to slim down things, and the point about the work on incentives as well and what those could look like. I'd certainly value that, if you're content to do that.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes, of course, please do.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We'll now take a short break.

We'll move on now to agenda item 3, which is the second evidence session for this inquiry. I'm pleased to welcome our guests and I'd like you to introduce yourselves, please. So, if we start here, thank you.

Good morning. I'm Jack Worth and I'm lead economist and school workforce lead at the National Foundation for Educational Research.

Good morning. Bore da. I'm David Egan. I'm professor of education at Cardiff Metropolitan University.

I am James Zuccollo. I'm director for school workforce at the Education Policy Institute.

Thank you for joining us this morning. Members have a series of questions, and I'd like to start please. What are the main reasons affecting the recruitment of students into initial teacher education courses, and is it possible to identify the single most important factor? Is the way that ITE is currently delivered the most appropriate way to attract students? Who'd like to begin?

Shall I begin? I think there's a huge range of factors that motivate teachers to come into initial teacher training. I think the vocation motivation is really important, and in the research seems to be a really important factor for why potential teachers want to become teachers, because they want to make a difference and have an impact on children and young people's lives and work with them.

In terms of some of the other factors, I think the state of the economy is a really important factor that shouldn't be overlooked. We saw during the pandemic that there was a big increase in the number of people coming into teacher training in Wales, which is mirrored in other countries as well, in terms of what's going on in the wider jobs market and what the alternative competing career options are that are available at that time for people potentially considering teacher training.

There is a wide range of other factors like the status of the profession and the image of the profession. How financially attractive it is is also another factor that really matters. We know from our evidence that it really makes a difference for teachers deciding whether or not to come into teacher training.

Thank you. Would anybody else like to come in? 

I think from our perception in the universities in initial teacher education, we still recruit healthily into primary courses. We don't have the numbers applying that we used to have, so clearly there is a greater disinclination, as it were, to come into primary teaching than there might have been 10 years ago.

Obviously, as far as secondary teaching is concerned, with one or two exceptions—physical education is a notable one, and I think it's interesting to explore why that's the case; and my own subject area, I was a history teacher for 13 years, we still manage to recruit a good number of history teachers—all other secondary subject areas are problematic. Some of them have been problematic for the last 25 years, over the whole period of devolution, like physics within the sciences, Welsh, obviously, and mathematics. But that now extends into areas like English and geography, and art and design, areas that previously would have been quite healthy in their recruitment.

I think what all that tracks back to is perception of teaching as a profession, workload, the well-being of teachers. So many potential undergraduates, so many 18-year-olds, and so many graduates, of course, are fresh from schools and the classroom themselves. They carry, as it were, that germ with them, if I can call it a germ; they carry that perception with them. Often, I'm afraid, when we've talked to undergraduates, they say, 'That's what our teachers said to us, don't go into teaching, that's what our parents who were teachers say to us, don't go into teaching'. So I think there is a huge perception issue, and much of that is grounded in the reality of what is an evermore challenging situation within the teaching profession.

Whether ITE itself, Chair, is part of the issue I think is an interesting point. The evidence from our research at Cardiff Met and the report that we've published is that there is a view that we need, as I heard Hayden Llewellyn say earlier in his evidence, as many routes into teaching as we can have, good quality routes, but I think we also need to make sure that we're reaching out in an access-type way to encourage people perhaps who don't see themselves as being teachers to actually think of the possibility that through baby steps initially they can, through access routes, progress into teaching. That's, I think, where we're coming from in terms of the work that we've done recently at Cardiff Met. 

I think both Jack and David have made excellent points. I want to pick up on what David said about the difference between primary and secondary ITE. In primary, there have not been many problems recruiting for some time, and in secondary those problems have only been getting worse for a very long time, as David said, particularly in the STEM subjects. I suppose we might ask what is it about secondary that makes it so much worse. If it were just teaching that people didn't want to get into, we'd see these problems in primary as well, but that's really not the case.

If it were just about pay, and I agree with Jack that pay is incredibly important, we'd see similar problems in primary as well, but we don't. So, there must be something about secondary that matters. Part of it is probably to do with pay and what people can get elsewhere. If you have a physics degree or a maths degree, that is very attractive in other parts of the economy, you can earn an awful lot, and that sacrifice is too big for some people to make. But, of course, there are people with attractive degrees who go into primary, and there are plenty of them as well.

So, what is it in secondary? I think, often, we've seen recently that behaviour has been really poor in secondary, that it seems more challenging to people, and, as David said, they've just come from secondary schools. A lot of these people a few years before have seen how tough it is for those teachers there as teenagers are acting up, especially since the pandemic. Part of that is probably—I don't think this is completely understood—to do with the other social support services that are there for families who are struggling, and schools having to pick up a lot of that themselves these days, and take on more, and become a social institution and do social support in addition to the teaching, particularly in secondary schools, where those children may not be turning up to school, may not be behaving well, and may not always be listening to their parents either.

I think there's something about understanding those other support networks around the school that then affect what it's like to work in that school, the pressures on those teachers, and how it affects how much people want to work in those schools, which affects ITE recruitment. But that's just to add to what they said, which I entirely agree with. 

Thank you. For secondary ITE, which subjects are most affected? Have there been any variations over recent years? Can any lessons be learned from the secondary subjects that have not seen under-recruitment, do you think? Who would like to start? 

Perhaps I'll pick that up first, if my colleagues are happy for me to do so, coming, as I say, from the sector. At Cardiff Met, we are the largest ITE provider in Wales, over half of the students who are training to be teachers in Wales in secondary are in Cardiff Met. And yet, although we have healthy recruitment, as I said earlier, in one or two subjects, all of the other subjects are now a challenge to us. That's grown, as I said earlier as well, from those that have long been a problem to a much wider range. 

To look at the glass half full rather than the glass half empty, why is it that, for example—and the example is an interesting one, I think—we do so well in recruiting physical education teachers? Cardiff Met is the only provider, basically, of PE teachers in Wales, and we have large undergraduate programmes. Obviously, it's one of the great strengths of the university.

But I think, from interviewing PE students and talking to PE teachers, which we did as part of the report, there is almost within that progression of young people who move into studying physical education at GCSE level and A level—which, of course, has been a huge growth area within the school curriculum over the last 20 to 25 years—this kind of attitude that that is going to be their trajectory.

Very early on, they start—when they're in year 10 and year 11 in school—coaching younger people. They get involved in community sport. It's part of their perception. When they come to us as undergraduates, we have this extensive programme out of Cardiff Met working with schools.

When you come up to our campus in Cyncoed on some days, you think that the place has been taken over by young people, because they're using these fantastic, world-class facilities. That's all part and parcel of the undergraduate programme that the students do. That's part of the engagement process.

So, I think there's something there. I heard Eithne Hughes talking about these things earlier on. If we want to grow—as we do, of course—teachers of Welsh and teachers of modern foreign languages, then these mentoring programmes that are in place need to be extended.

We need to be encouraging more young people to be thinking about teaching as a career, as part of a national approach, I think—a national campaign to encourage people to see teaching as being the profession that we want it to be. So, I think that that's an interesting perspective, looking, as it were, from a strengths-based approach, rather than, sometimes, the weaknesses-based approach that we often do when we look at these issues.

I suppose what I'd say, and maybe it's the same thing Jack would say, is that I think, again, if you look at the differences between subjects, it's tempting to think that it's something to do with the people or the advertising, but I think often in education we are buffeted by the winds of the rest of the economy, and there's not much that we can do about that.

If you have a physics degree or a maths degree, you have outstanding opportunities to get very well-paid jobs elsewhere. And if you have a degree in physical education, you don't nearly so much. A huge proportion of the differences in recruitment to ITE across different subjects can be explained by the amount that you earn getting that degree and taking it somewhere else in the economy. And I think that that's the overwhelming reason for these differences in recruitment to different subjects.

Good answer. Jack, have you got anything to add?

I absolutely agree with that. I wanted to pick up something in your question, which is about recent trends. I think that one of the frustrations, as a researcher trying to research the education workforce in Wales, is the timeliness of data. The most recent ITE statistics covering how many trainees there are in different subjects and by phase are up to 2021-22, which isn't very recent. We are still waiting for the data to come forward on a really key period, where there's been a lot of change, after the pandemic.

That's compared to somewhere like England, where we currently have the information on how many trainees there were that started programmes in September. We had that published in December. Because the Department for Education publishes monthly data on the number of applications to teacher training, we have an emerging picture, and a pretty clear picture by this point in the year, what the ITT census, when it's published in December this year, is likely to look like.

So, there's a big discrepancy in terms of the timeliness of data available to be able to say, 'Well, what's happening right now?' Teacher training providers themselves may have insights into what the numbers are like in their settings, and others, like the EWC, may have more information. But in terms of just looking from the outside, there's very little information available about what the most recent trends are.

You saw Naomi and me look at each other then when you mentioned the word 'data'. That's because this committee absolutely loves data. I can tell you: every single piece of work that we have done, the data is always key and is something that we’re always chasing continuously. So, we feel your pain.

Excellent. Keep up the good work. We also love data.

There we are. Okay. So, we’ll move on now to questions from Cefin, please.

Thank you for your papers. I'll ask this question in English; the other two will be in Welsh. What are the main factors that affect schools' abilities to retain the teaching staff that they have?

Who’d like to go first?

We're looking at each other. [Laughter.]

I suppose—[Interruption.] Go on, James.

Shall I start? I’ll say something small. The first thing I'll say is that retention in schools in Wales is actually remarkably good when you compare it to other nations across the UK. You're only losing maybe 2 per cent to 4 per cent of your teachers, depending on how experienced they are, each year. If you look across the border at England, it's more than double that. So, I think retention here is remarkable. And the question perhaps that I'd ask is: are you always retaining the teachers you want to in schools? So, I think some turnover is often healthy, to bring new ideas into schools, to allow progression in careers. Where people feel like there's someone ahead of them blocking them in a career—and we heard this when we did a lot of focus groups here—then you can struggle to bring new people through and retain them in the profession if they don't see opportunities for progression. And if you don't have anyone leaving the profession, then, actually, that's trickier, right? So, I think it's a wonderful thing that people who stay in the profession for a good period of time, past the first five years, tend to stay on and enjoy what they're doing, but, at the same time, you need to still be thinking about how you're bringing in that new talent and making space for new ideas in the jobs you have.

I agree with all that. And I listened to Hayden Llewellyn saying similar things earlier whilst waiting. I think it's the Chair's point about data, really. I think we need a finer understanding, because a lot of what we heard, talking to local authorities, talking to headteachers in the schools, was that there are major retention issues. Again, those, I think, are more common across primary and secondary, and they track back again to workload, well-being, and so forth.

I think my hypothesis is that, actually—and, again, that did come up in the conversation that I was listening to with Eithne and Hayden—I think, if we get more forensic with that data, that we will find that the greater the level of socioeconomic disadvantage that there is in those schools, the greater will be the retention issues. And I think that's what we've picked up anecdotally from the qualitative evidence that we've collected, the interviews that we've done. The stats do suggest, as James has said and Hayden said earlier on, that the situation is not as serious in Wales as it is in England, and maybe in other countries, and yet, in pockets, in particular kinds of schools—and I think there are issues as well about the Welsh-medium context—it might be more serious. So, I think that we need a better understanding.

But when you come then to what the reasons are, yes, absolutely, it's back again to workload, to well-being, perhaps not having the progression opportunities that people would like to have, and I think it's about leadership. I think that, again, there is some evidence that, where headteachers are more focused upon supporting their staff, supporting their workload and well-being, being more flexible in terms of attitudes, as it were, to working conditions and so forth, that retention will be better. So, similar schools, but in some cases retention might be stronger than in other schools. And that, I think, probably goes back to being a leadership factor. So, I think it's a complex situation, more complex than the recruitment issue, and I think we need a better understanding of it.

Yes, I agree with that, certainly in terms of getting a better understanding of it. So, we undertook some analysis of the school workforce annual census. I think that is borne out, in that the schools with higher FSM tend to have higher leaving rates.

In terms of the differences between countries, I think that the headline data does suggest that the leaving rate is lower in Wales than it is in England. But they're also measured in quite different ways, using the school workforce census in England and the school workforce annual census in Wales. When we tried to use both data sets to measure them in a similar way, we actually found less difference between Wales and similar areas of England in terms of economic context, et cetera. But that, again, was during 2020, when the pandemic was really affecting retention rates. So, I think, certainly, a greater understanding and greater consistency of data across countries would build a better picture of what's really happening.

But, yes, in terms of the factors, there's the financial side and there's the non-financial side that David's talked about in terms of the support from senior leaders, supporting with workload and well-being. They always come out top of the reasons why teachers are considering leaving and what can be done to support them to stay.

Because you've answered the second question I was going to ask—well, mostly, anyway—if I could just maybe add a supplementary. In terms of the qualitative work, research work that you've done, looking at the range of factors that impact on retention and recruitment—and they are well-versed, we know what they are—where would you put pay and salary on that scale of all the factors that affect teachers’ morale and so on?

I think these are two sides of a scale. On the one hand, you've got the difficulty of the job, and how much people just really want to do it because it's fantastic to be there. We know that while teaching is a very rewarding job and it's very worth while, it's also a really hard job. It's got long hours and there's a big emotional cost of being in schools the whole time and always in contact with kids, isn't there? And so on the other side of that, you've got to compensate for that with the pay. And if the pay isn't enough to compensate for how tough the job is relative to other jobs, that's when people move on. So, I wouldn't say it ranks above or below other things; it's got to compensate for that. You can either make the job easier or you can pay people more to do a harder job, and I think when you see people leaving more or deciding not to go into the job and pay hasn't moved, you know the job's got harder relative to other jobs.

I think I agree with that. I was a teacher for 13 years and of course feel that, as far as I'm concerned, it's a profession where we can't pay teachers enough, but we have to live in the real world. And I think that what most headteachers tell me is that they feel that it's a salary that is reasonably well paid with reasonably good conditions. Most of the evidence that we have is that teachers don't leave teaching for better paid jobs. They leave teaching to get a better work-life balance. I think that's the nub of it. Of course, teachers should be well paid; they should be better paid, I think, than they are. I would say that, because I think that education is the most important thing that we do in society. I'm bound to say that where I come from. But, given what teachers are paid, given the career prospects that they have, given the terms and conditions that they have—I'm not going to mention long holidays, but there we are; I have mentioned it—I think that the issue really is much more on the side of work-life balance and well-being. That's the fundamental problem we're facing. And I think perhaps we’ll have a further opportunity to talk about this before we finish.

Again, going back to some of the things that James was talking about and Eithne was talking about earlier on, it's the expectations that we now have of schools within broader societal issues, not just in Wales, obviously, but more generally, which I think is something that we need to address in the Welsh context.

Yes, I'd echo all of that, and our research bears that out as well in terms of teachers leaving for lower paid jobs and in search of higher job satisfaction. Those are the main reasons why teachers leave. Those are the main reasons they say they leave. If you rank them, pay is kind of mid table; it's not really up there. But at the same time, we know that if teacher pay is rising faster than average earnings and becoming more competitive, then more teachers are likely to come in and more teachers are likely to stay. It's a complex set of factors, and if one is becoming more attractive then, on balance, everything else considered, it will become more attractive. Financial levers are one of those, alongside all the other ones. They're not the main reason, but they can certainly make a difference. 

Well, you mentioned the Cardiff Met report, Cefin, so I suppose I ought to pick up on that. I think, again, all the conversations that we had with local authorities, with headteachers, with teachers, with the case studies of the schools that we did, I think there is a feeling—and you'll have heard that, I'm sure, from elsewhere—that this is an exceptionally busy time within Welsh education. It's an exceptionally pressured time within the education system generally, post COVID and all those kinds of issues. But it just so happens that we are carrying out this major reform in additional learning needs, that we're in the middle of introducing the Curriculum for Wales, and we're part, at Cardiff Met, of the evaluation of the implementation of Curriculum for Wales, and I'm working on that as well.

I think there's a lot of positivity out there about those reforms, and they are good reforms, but I think there is a real concern, again, that all of this is adding to workload. It is adding to issues around teacher well-being, and it's about the management of change and so forth. So, rather than seeing those things as being positive factors at the moment, I think they're at best neutral, and they may be negative, but it's about—and I know that's something else you've looked at as a committee—it's about the management of those changes and whether, in fact, we're doing that in the best way possible.

And as you say, there are wider societal pressures on schools as well, and I think that, for me, is perhaps a very significant issue in terms of how we're thinking not in isolation about this issue about recruitment and retention of teachers. I know that, as a committee, you won't be thinking about that in isolation, because it will relate and interrelate to so many other aspects of the education system in Wales. You can't look at these things in isolation any more than you can look at issues around behaviour and attendance in isolation. They're all part, I think, of the challenges that we face as a society and we face as an education community at the moment.

Okay. 

We now have some questions from Carolyn Thomas, please.

Okay, thank you.  Earlier, David, you said that work-life balance is really important. Do you believe it's in the gift of headteachers? And do you think there's competition for teachers to be there first and stay until the last as well? So, it's just that work-life balance. How important is early career support as well and professional learning for new starters, new teachers? 

I think early career support is absolutely critical. Where we are losing teachers—I think we're all clear on that—is in those early years. And so, we're working incredibly hard to recruit these teachers. It's easier in primary than it is, as we've said, in secondary. But wherever we're losing them, primary or secondary, the fact that we're losing them in their early years, I think is a real worry. And that's got to be about sustaining them and nurturing them.

I think that all the evidence is that what teachers need—and again, you'd have heard that earlier from others—is almost what I call long, thin kind of progression. Most of the evidence is that teachers make the greatest kind of growth in their competence, in their professionalism, between year 3 and year 7, as it were. And so that's all about, I think, that early career development and moving them forward, so they can become competent teachers. So, I think that's the critical thing.

I think the thing about work-life balance, yes, obviously, as I've indicated, leadership is an important part of that, but I do think there is an issue about the expectations we now have of schools. Again, you've heard that from elsewhere—James has referred to it—but there are more and greater expectations. I was, as I said earlier, a teacher for 13 years in two south Wales Valleys comprehensive schools. And I think that when I now, in other parts of my life in those areas, as a governor of schools and somebody involved in other ways with schools—not to go into all the detail of that—I do see that the expectation that there is now upon teachers, leaders and headteachers in those schools is far, far greater than when I was a teacher in the 1970s and the 1980s. Headteachers talk about schools being the fourth emergency service. That sounds like hyperbole, but I think there's a lot in it in terms of the expectations we have. That's not going to go away. So, I think that what we have to do is just think, in Wales, as other nations will need to think as well, about how we go forward, and I think we can look to international examples of where there is much better integration between schools and the education system, as it were, and the wider children's system and other multi-agency organisations. I think we probably need to think about this whole idea of community-focused schools as actually being a systemic thing, rather than a kind of funded grant programme, if you see what I mean, and I think that would give us a distinctiveness about the way we think about education going forward in Wales that would address these issues, but would also address some other very fundamental issues.

They go back to 'it takes a village to raise a child'.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Can I quickly bring Vaughan in here, please?

Sorry, Chair, I was just—. It's come up several times around the amount of reform and activity in the system. The current Cabinet Secretary for Education has tried, has stated, she wants to try and slim that down with some priorities. So, there were some reforms that didn't go ahead—the school year reform being an obvious one. I'm trying to understand, in that context, whether that's seen as a positive, to not have that extra aspect to deal with, because it's the challenge of having priorities, and you've all recognised that there need to be priorities within the system. I think David has said that he thinks the curriculum reform is a good thing, to want to do something that's positive, but to understand what that means for the workforce and the leadership, about how many things they think they can do, and whether, actually, the not moving ahead with the school year reform is seen as a positive thing or not for the workforce, and the issues we're trying to address now. Because some of this is about trying to link up the different things that are taking place, and slim down the number of things in the system, because committees often ask the Government to do more things, not less.

That's very true. Would anybody like to come in there?

I think that pace of change does matter, and any change is going to necessitate teachers to incorporate that change, implement that change. So, any change that's implemented more slowly or more carefully and with less change is likely to have a more positive impact on teachers, because there's more time to implement it alongside being busy teachers—you know, the day job plus the growing expectations—and, of course, the growing expectations on school leaders and the work that they do, because leaders are important in terms of setting the culture and the tone within the school, but also are working under important pressure themselves. So, I think, going back to think about England during the big curriculum reform, in the last decade, and a lot of policy change very quickly, and you saw a big spike in leaving rates, you saw a big increase in teachers' workload, all of which has been steadily coming down—steadily, slightly—for a decade, but it's taken a long time for that to pass through. So, any change that happens quickly and demands a lot of teachers is likely to butt up against capacity, and then find it difficult to be implemented and affects the workforce.

Thank you. Carolyn.

I just want to go back, regarding quality of early career support. Do you think it's adequate, what's been provided for early career support, and what else can be done, and also regarding school leaders as well? We've heard about difficulties with recruiting school leaders and headteachers. What do you think should be done, and by whom, to support school leadership and recruitment?

Well, I think I've indicated—and certainly said it in the report—no, I don't think the quality of early career support is what it needs to be and, again, I think that reflects what I heard from other colleagues earlier, in the evidence they were giving. And it's back again to this long, thin development process that we talk about in the report. I think what we've been trying to do on one-year postgraduate courses is the impossible: trying, in a 12-week university course, and a 24-week school course, 36 weeks, to create—. There's undergraduate provision, and you've got three years there to prepare them, but I think to prepare secondary and primary teachers in a one-year course and think that they are the finished product and that they can come in and they can have an induction process, where the evidence in our report is, from them and from the local authorities, that that is very variable in quality, and that we have the finished product, given all the demands that I think we all agree have been placed on teachers in schools, I think is the flaw in the system. I think that's the real flaw in the system. For me—and I won't entirely be popular with my colleagues in Cardiff Met for saying this because there's been so much change in ITE as well over the years—I'm not sure if the one-year post-graduate certificate in education has not now passed its sell-by date. The idea that you can take a graduate, whether they're a 21-year-old or sometimes an older person coming in—which I think is a very healthy thing, actually—and a university course for 12 weeks, and a school course, and in 360 days turn them into the young teachers we want them to be without this very enriched, nurturing approach that I think they need, I think is the fatal flaw in the system. We've tried in the report to say, 'Well, look at nursing, look at social work, look at other professions.' It's not that they don't have similar issues about recruitment and retention, but at least they have a career pathway and a career profile that is trying to do the very best that they can in terms of taking these people forward and hoping that they can turn them into the great professionals we want them to be. 

Can I bring Cefin Campbell in quickly here, please?

Can I just quickly come in on the back of that? I absolutely agree that early career support is crucial. So, who would be providing that kind of support, because the consortia have disappeared? We're in this limbo situation where we're not quite sure whether local authorities are picking up the tab for this provision. Where do you see that support coming from?

Well, you probably won't be surprised, Cefin, that I think there's a greater role for universities. We work hard to recruit these people, and whether they're with us for three years or with us for a year on the postgraduate course, I think there could be a role. They don't all stay locally, of course. Some cross the border, cross Offa's Dyke and go elsewhere, and that's just in the nature of things, as people will come to teach in Wales. But I think there should be a role for universities in that continuing professional development, in working with local authorities in the new arrangements now that we're going to have, after the review, as it were, of the consortia. There should be, as there is in those other professions that I've talked about, that continuing role of the initial training provider. And I think it would be much better to think about, rather than initial teacher education, the process of teacher development—this long, thin process in which universities work with local authorities, work with schools in ensuring that we take people forward into the profession.

Carolyn. No, okay, James.

I was just going to say something about senior leaders, if that's okay, because I think recruitment of senior leaders to these roles is a huge problem in many places. You see very few applicants, some places where they fail to recruit at all over several rounds, and bring in some executive head across multiple schools, who is then, of course, overburdened because they're trying to do three jobs at once. But then, on the other hand, you also see places that always fill their roles. Actually, a lot of Welsh-medium schools are like this; they're always filling their headteacher roles and senior leader roles quite easily even though they have only one or two applicants to the role, and I think, in a way, that's equally concerning. If they've got so few applicants, but they're always filling, either these are unusually fantastic applicants every single time, or standards are just lower there. And I think we really need to be concerned about that because it's those senior leaders and headteachers who are supporting the new graduates who are coming in, who are setting the workload, who are setting the culture of the school, who are thinking about work-life balance. It's within their gift to allow teachers to have more preparation time or combine it so that they can work flexibly from home as well.

So, I think great leadership is crucial, and having more support for those leaders is essential. Now, you might think it's coming from the local authority, but when we talk to headteachers, a lot of them say whoever's in the local authority is less experienced than they are, and not in the right position to provide that support, and they'd like to have that support from other headteachers in similar circumstances, those kinds of peer networks. But, because they’re under such pressure to deliver, perhaps across multiple schools, they struggle to find the time to build those networks and to make those connections, which really do need to be in person for them to actually have those mentoring relationships. So, I think, some way to bring those headteachers together and give them freedom to do that, and maybe take the burden of organisation away from them, would be hugely helpful.

The other thing they told us is really helpful is shadowing. You don’t know what the job’s like until you do it, when that responsibility comes on your head as a headteacher and it’s just you. Shadowing other headteachers when you’re a deputy or assistant, or acting up if you’re a deputy, to try it out, I think can also be hugely valuable.

Can I bring Natasha in here quickly? Sorry, Carolyn. 

Thank you so much, Chair—just a quick one. Mr Egan, you raised a really interesting point about the PGCE course being changed slightly. It’s a concept that I’m very much interested in. I’m all for it. I think it will be wonderful. I think it will be invaluable for people, particularly who are coming into the teaching profession, to be able to get so much experience over such a longer time frame, as opposed to the condensing of everything being put into one year.

Do you not think, though, that having that concept will deter people from doing it, from a cost perspective, because doing a PGCE isn’t free, let’s be honest? So, they’re paying extra costs to do an extra year. I appreciate the work-life balance element that everyone was talking about 'after', but, during that training period, you have to think of the costing of doing the course, training, paying for your own travel, all of that. Would that not be seen as more of a hindrance to some from getting into the profession, thinking, 'It’s going to cost me two years of tuition fees. That’s going to be a heck of an expense and I’ll be stuck paying the debt afterwards', whereas keeping it for a year would, obviously, seem to be the answer to a lot of people’s prayers at a cost level? So, what do you think about that? What would be the counter-argument for having that longer course?

I think it’s a very fair point, and I think it’s back, again, to managing change. I think if we feel that’s the way to go, then we need to manage it properly, otherwise, yes, we could destabilise. And I think these guys would say, because they understand the kind of labour market probably better than I do, that if we could destabilise that market by making that change quickly, then that wouldn’t help. But if we feel, as certainly other professions feel, that we need this more long, thin development, and that there’s a longer process, as it were, before you are fully qualified as a teacher, then I think there’s no reason that we shouldn’t be thinking about that over the period to come as being the right way to go.

In the report, we do suggest—and I’ll fly this kite; why not?—that, actually, it might be interesting to look, from a cost-effectiveness point of view, as to whether we might not, in the short term, want to encourage people to come into teaching through a kind of no-cost, low-cost offer. It’s been suggested to me that, actually, if you did that cost-effectiveness, benefit analysis-type thing, there could be a justification for that. Because, when you think of the unfilled places—. In other words, the Welsh budget is allowing for so many physics teachers, but there’s that underspend there—and I’m sure it’s been put to good use somewhere else, that underspend—and there’s the whole issue about schools and supply teachers and so forth, and the costs of that, then it could be that, if that would be an attractive way of bringing people in in the short term, that might be worth looking into. But I still think that, in the medium to long term, it would make more sense to look at how we actually grow and nurture our teaching profession, going forward.

Thank you. And can I just ask a really cheeky question to Mr Zuccollo?

Quickly. [Laughter.]

You made a really great point in relation to shadowing, particularly for heads and deputy heads who want to get into the profession. And I'm a huge advocate of shadowing in any aspect, in any career. On the INSET days that young children have in schools, primarily, we obviously appreciate that teachers need to be trained, and they learn different things and techniques. Would it not be worth while to set up, almost, a group of various headteachers and deputy heads across a particular region, area, et cetera, for them to meet on those potential INSET days and have that programme in place? Is that something that could be looked at in future, or is that something that would probably be seen as a write-off?

I think those sorts of groups sound like a fantastic idea. I think INSET days have a lot packed into them already. They’re already under pressure with the amount of time teachers have, so I do wonder if there would be space for it during INSET days, though.

So, when would you suggest would be a viable time, because, obviously, we’re talking about a work-life balance? I don’t want to be the one to suggest, 'Use your weekends. I work weekends, so they should work weekends.' I wouldn’t suggest that in a million years, but, nonetheless, when would be an adequate time? Because time is going to be needed to be able to do that shadowing. So, in a teaching calendar, when would be the best time for that to happen?

I think it’s very hard to say when you’re sitting here in the Senedd building, rather than sitting in a school.

Agreed.

And you'd want teachers in schools to figure out when that time was. But—and I think this comes back to data as well—if we're thinking about what responsibilities could we take away from headteachers so they didn't have such pressure, do we really understand exactly what they're doing at the moment? I think, actually, that data is slightly missing, so it's hard to give a clear answer to where you might pull things out of their responsibilities to give them the freedom to choose those times that work for them.

Thank you very much. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. Back to you, Carolyn.

Okay. Just regarding the current and future workforce, does it reflect the diversity of Wales, including gender, race, ethnicity and disability? So, comments on that, really.

Yes. Shall I pick up on ethnicity? It's something we've done research on. Certainly, the teacher population doesn't reflect the wider population, or the school population, in terms of ethnic diversity, so it's certainly a challenge and something worthwhile to address, so that the population is more representative. I think the introduction of a dedicated bursary for ethnic minority trainees, I think, is a positive step that we haven't seen in other places across the UK. It would be good to see what the impact of that has been, although I'm not aware of any kind of data yet on what the impact of that has been, but that's certainly an innovative step where addressing that is important.

But it's not just about individual teacher training and attracting more applicants in. We've been doing some research on the workforce in England, and actually the number of applicants coming in has a good representation of ethnic diversity compared to the wider population. The issues are in terms of acceptance rates to ITT courses and support during ITT, on placements, and then retention in the profession and then progression. So, there's a whole host of issues that disproportionately affect teachers from ethnic minority backgrounds that need addressing all through the teacher pipeline, rather than just simply attraction into the profession.

The gender issues are interesting, aren't they? Certainly, when I went into teaching, primary teaching then was heavily female gendered and that's continued to be the case. I heard again the points earlier on about progression, however, into leadership roles, and I think there are still concerns in that respect. Secondary teaching has become more and more female dominated in that period since I went into teaching in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and I do hear concerns—I don't know, as an educational researcher, how well grounded they are in actual fact—that the whole issue of role models for boys—. I mean, we are concerned about the relatively low levels of boys' attainment compared to girls', particularly in our most socioeconomically disadvantaged areas, so there may be something to be said there about looking to see how we can make teaching more attractive to males, perversely, because that's not usually the discussion we have, is it, but I think there might be something there of interest.

As far as ethnic minority, yes, I agree with Jack, and I agree again with some of the comments I heard earlier on. The fact of the matter is, we're sitting here in the oldest ethnic minority community in the UK, Cardiff Bay. This is the oldest ethnic minority community in the UK. When you look at the next oldest, across the Severn—fact, I'm a historian as I said earlier on, by background—when I did a piece of work for Welsh Government, four or five years ago now, it's not brilliant in Bristol, but they have a much stronger rate of recruiting from their ethnic minority communities into teaching than we do here in Wales. It's not something I think we can particularly be proud of in what is a challenging environment already. And what I discovered from that, by looking at their experience and looking at other experiences in London and in the north of England and so forth, and for that matter in Scotland, was that, as was said earlier on, you've got to get out into those communities and change mindsets, and persuade people—like some of our high schools are in this city, actually—that teaching and other professions can be for them, or that teaching, like other professions, can be for them. I think bursaries are always interesting. I think recruitment campaigns are always interesting. But I think, as was said earlier on, getting out there and working within the community, which I think is what's happened in Bristol and in some of those other cases, and persuading community leaders and getting in to community events and using role models, as it were, to persuade them that teaching could be for them is something that we need to do a lot more within Wales.

Thank you. We're running so over on time again on this session. We'll go over to Vaughan now, please.

Thank you, Chair. It's been fascinating listening to what you've had to say. It goes back a bit to the question I jumped in on, the impact on learners of the academic reforms that we've been seeing take place in Wales. So, there's this point around whether the shortage of teachers results in a lowering of the quality of future teachers, and—I think that you've touched on this across the panel—about whether or not, for both classroom teachers and leadership positions, posts are being filled and whether posts are being filled with the quality that we'd all want to see, and whether or not secondary school teachers teach in the subject they're trained in, or primary school teachers teach in their phase, and whether actually we're getting the right people into the right jobs, essentially, or does the shortage of experience in some parts of our system mean that a square peg will always be put into a round hole because it means that there isn't a vacancy.

Yes, I think that's right. School leaders are very adept at recruiting teachers to fill roles, and sometimes those aren't the most ideal if the supply in the market isn't what we need it to be. That's been a long-running case in STEM subjects. So, maths and science, you get a decent proportion of teachers without subject specialism, particularly maths, but also science in terms of teaching across the sciences, because it can be much more tricky to recruit physics specialists than it can be for, for example, biology specialists. So, you often get science departments that are more towards biology specialists than they are to physics specialists. And yes, it's likely to have an impact on the quality of education and have an impact, because if you don't have a subject specialist there then they're likely to be less familiar with material and therefore find it less easy to spot pupils' misconceptions and to teach really effectively. So, it is very important and that's how teacher supply can really have an impact on the quality of education. It's not just about the number of teachers in classes; it's about quality.

We talked a bit about this earlier, so I just want to get into the next bit, which follows on a bit from the answer, and that's about the extent to which a shortage of teachers or otherwise affects the delivery of reforms to the curriculum and ALN. It seems a bit circular. On the one hand, some of the noise on the reforms is one of the things that people are suggesting may put people off coming into the system, and yet actually, if we don't have enough teachers in the system, it'll affect the ability to deliver the reforms, and the impact on recruitment to ITE. But I'm trying to understand—you can't take this down to mathematical percentages, but—the impact of those reforms on both getting new teachers and, at the same time, the points that have been made by a number of you about what happens in the wider economy. In a previous Government role, we were actively telling people that they've got lots of potential careers in the cyber sector, lots of potential careers in other sectors of the economy. So, I'm trying to understand, from the evidence that you've got, where the amount of reforms sits in terms of the issues to try to resolve to try to make sure that we've still got the number of teachers in the system of the quality that we would all want. 

Can I tackle it in this way, Vaughan—? And you'll know this, because this is a conversation that I've had with you in the past in a previous ministerial role. I think that the biggest challenge we face in the education system in Wales is the gap in attainment between our most advantaged and our most disadvantaged. That preceded devolution; it's not been something that we've been able to do a great deal about, although we've tried very hard since devolution. Now, I think that a lot of that comes down to the quality of teaching. We know that one of the things that can make the biggest difference for young people coming from disadvantaged backgrounds is having a high-quality experience in their schools—having the support of their parents is also critically important, but—being exposed to high-quality teaching, the very best quality teaching. So, if we're saying that in the schools where those young people find themselves in large numbers are the schools that are having the greatest challenge in recruiting high-quality teachers, then we're not actually getting to the nub of what is that fundamental problem. 

I think where the curriculum plays in, then, is that a curriculum is only a means, after all, of trying to engage those young people and to improve their attainment. But the fundamental issue is the issue about are they being exposed. There's a report today from Estyn on maths teaching in Wales, highlighting the weaknesses there are in maths teaching in Wales. Well, we go back to the same kind of issues. The issues are that we've been struggling to recruit maths teachers in Wales forever—the situation gets worse, not better. We're having to spread and make the net wider and wider, as has been said, to recruit people to maths teaching that perhaps we wouldn't have done otherwise. And those problems are greatest in the most challenging socioeconomic contexts, and therefore it's going to be more challenging to introduce the new curriculum in those kinds of schools. So, I think there's a need to join the dots here and to see these things holistically, as I said earlier on, not as being individual things that are happening within the system.

Can I briefly just—? I think Vaughan is asking all the questions that everyone wants answers to. Where is there good teaching? How much do these changes affect the quality of teaching? And I think the sad answer is that nobody knows, because it's not measured. And we've talked about the difficulties with data in Wales and the difficulties of getting it, and I think this is another place where there are difficulties. If you went to the US, you would be able to say, 'On average, this has changed the quality of teaching by this much', because we have an evaluation and we have the value added of each teacher there—not to evaluate them, but to evaluate the reforms. You come over to the UK and nowhere has the value added of teaching. In England, they do publish value added of schools, and you can look at school level, which is not the same, because teachers are different within schools and they're affected differently, but it's a bit closer. But, in Wales, here, we don't publish that anymore. And I think that lack of data means that these questions are unanswerable, and that means that these reforms are not properly evaluated at the moment, which means we can't tackle the crucial questions that you're asking.

Thank you. I'm really sorry, we're going to have to move on to Joel James, because we are so over time.

That's fine, Chair, I was going to suggest that I didn't need to ask the last question anyway.

Thank you. We'll move to Joel then, please.

Thank you, Chair. If I'm honest, I think a lot of the questions I wanted to ask have been answered.

All right. Thank you, Joel. Do any Members have any extra questions? No. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We do really appreciate you coming in. There'll be a transcript available for checking in due course. So, thank you again. 

Diolch.

Thank you.

We'll now take a short break to bring in the next lot of witnesses. Thank you.

We'll move on now to agenda item 4, which is the third evidence session for this inquiry. You're very welcome, all. Could you introduce yourselves, please? We’ll start here. Thank you. 

Claire Rickard, national executive member for Wales, National Education Union.

Stuart Williams, Wales policy officer, NEU Cymru.

Neil Butler, national official for Wales for the NASUWT.

Thank you. Members have a series of questions, and I'd like to start with Natasha, please.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everybody. I’d just like to ask all of you—you can answer individually and however you so wish, whoever wants to go first—what are some of the main reasons that you feel in your experience are affecting the recruitment of students onto initial teacher education courses. Is it possible to identify one single most important factor? Do you feel that there are many factors, and do you feel that the way that ITE is currently delivered is having an impact on the attractiveness of training to be a teacher? Don't all jump in at once. [Laughter.]

I’ll launch. I won't make any comment with regard to the ITE course specifically. I don't think it's the nature of the course that would be putting students off going into teacher training. I think, basically, that there is a world of work out there where there are other graduate jobs that are quite simply more attractive—attractive in terms of the pay and the progression, especially in terms of progression, and attractive in terms of the conditions of service that exist. So, I think the key point—certainly from our perspective in the NASUWT—is if you want to attract good graduates into teaching, you have simply got to make teaching a more attractive profession. We've got plenty of ideas for that, but I would imagine that that's going to be for the rest of the discussion.

You just mentioned that there are other courses that are more attractive to students. Can you give us some examples of what would be more attractive than teaching?

Not in terms of courses, but professions. In terms of other types of professions you could go into, there are plenty to choose from, but the important thing about those professions is that they have now, especially since COVID, got work flexibilities. Lots of professions—including mine, I would say—mean that you can work from home on many days, and those are attractive. They're especially attractive to women, and women are particularly attracted to the teaching profession, so if you're in a situation whereby you've got other options that give you plenty of work flexibilities, which teaching most certainly does not, then that's going to make that a big competitor to going into teaching.

Does anyone else have anything to add?

I'd like to add to that as well. I'm also a full-time teacher, head of science and chemistry, and a mother to a nine-year-old, and I would say, especially since COVID, the attractiveness of flexibility in other professions is definitely very appealing, and that is lacking in the teaching profession.

You wanted to come in, Ioan.

Thank you so much for your answer. I'm going to ask a little subquestion before I go on to my next one, if that's okay. You're our third panel this morning that we've spoken to—. Yes, go for it. Yes, of course you can. 

Thank you. I agree with everything that's been said, but thinking about the barriers to why people don't go in to become teachers, pay wasn't an issue back in the day. I started teaching in 2001. I didn't go in for the pay, I went in because I wanted to make a difference, and I think a lot of people do that now, but with the cost of living the way it is, prices going up, energy going up, the pay is a big factor. It's a huge factor. And when you think about the starting salary for me when I started in 2001, it was £17,500. Twenty years later, that was only up by less than £10,000. So, in 20 years, the starting salary had only increased by less than £10,000. That is not reflective of the work that teachers do. As Ioan and Neil have said, the work-life balance isn't there. So, if you want to attract people into teaching, you've got to look at what other professions can they go into, how can we compete, and the first thing they're going to look at in this day and age is, 'How much are you going to pay me?'

I'm really glad you said that, because that was going to be my subquestion—

Can I bring Carolyn in here really quickly? Sorry.

I spoke with some of you during the petition on banning mobile phones in schools. So, I just want to bring in about the impacts of social media and parents of children being off-putting for people going to schools—that outside influence as well, and how the teaching profession is perceived.

I can say a few words in terms of the influence of mobile phones. Certainly in terms of our view—

And social media and the expectation of parents on teachers to actually educate the children, and dressing properly and all sorts of things, behaviour issues as well.

There's quite a lot you've got there. There is social media, there is mobile phones, and there is the situation with regard to parents. They're all mixed in the sense that social media and the simplicity and the easiness of social media has made a lot worse those particular situations. The unhappiness, the mumblings that might have taken place on the school car park at the end of the day are now transformed to being out there with regard to social media.

There is also the major impact in terms of learner behaviour; that came up in the behaviour summit the other week. It's got a huge impact in terms of learner behaviour. Certainly, from speaking to school leaders that I've spoken to that have banned mobile phones, for example, they've said that has been transformational in terms of learner behaviour. I think that's something that needs to be listened to, and the Welsh Government needs to take some leadership on that.

But also, with regard to the parental—. I won't call it abuse, I'll call it the aggression of parents. That has been exacerbated by social media, if I might say. I think they tend to wind each other up, and consequently that makes things a lot worse. That's a huge challenge for school leaders, also for teachers as well, who find themselves in the appalling position of being splashed all over social media and the reputational damage that that does. So, it has a huge impact. I think it's something that we can do something about, certainly within a school period of time, and it's something we should be doing something about. 

The NAHT and others said that a complete ban on mobile phones isn't the way forward, but that it should be up to individual schools. There was a difference of opinion at the time, so I just wanted to bring that in. But I hear what you say.

I'm really sorry—

Can I respond to that? Sorry, Chair. 

I was just going to say that we're so short of time, we're going to have to move on. I'm really sorry. Natasha.

Thank you so much, Chair. I'm very much a money person, so I like to know figures. Everyone we've spoken to today has talked about financial incentives for teachers to be appropriate in today's day and age and that it needs to be enticing for young people, people from all different ages, backgrounds, et cetera, to get into teaching. So I'd like to ask you what is the magic number. What figure of a salary can we say, 'This is an adequate salary to make teaching lucrative for people from all ages, backgrounds, wherever in the country to come and teach in Wales'? What's your number?

I think you need to look at the research into graduate incomes and what would be an acceptable level from that, because it is a graduate profession, and it should be rewarded like other graduate professions.

I appreciate that all of you come from a wealth of backgrounds, you meet with teachers—[Interruption.] Yes, I am going to come to you. But from the people you're speaking to, the heads, the teachers, the trainees, the newbies into the profession, as they say, what is their number? What would they be looking for? Neil, after you.

I'll give you a magic number, but not in the sense that you might think, because it's a date—I'll give you 2010. What I would like to see is a restorative pay settlement going back to 2010, so the equivalent pay today of what it would have been in 2010, which, for starting salaries, is going to be around 17 or 18 per cent higher than it is presently. For those on the top of the upper pay scale, that's going to be somewhere in the region of 27 per cent. So that's the magic number: let's restore salaries to what they were before the periods of austerity that have now basically made teaching not as attractive as it was as a graduate profession. So just take the salary and add just around 20 to 22 per cent, and there's your magic number.

Thank you very much for that. Just in a sentence, because I am conscious of time and I know our Chair wants to move on as well, what do you feel, individually, is the single most important factor that affects recruitment into teaching in today's day and age? Go for it—whoever. Don't all jump at once, I know it's a tough one, but just in a sentence.

Stuart.

If potential trainees are researching education and what education is all about, then you've got to be looking at pay, you've got to be looking at work-life balance and workload, because that is the driver. Well, actually, that's what's driving people out of the profession is the workload. 

I've got a lot of friends who are teachers, and when it came to the previous pay award—last year, the year before—they were saying, 'If you take the workload off me, then I will accept a reduced pay rise. If you don't take that workload off me, I want to get paid what I deserve because I'm working really hard,' as Neil said, '60 hours a week, so I deserve that pay. Take the workload off me, then I will accept a lower pay rise.'

I think that more flexible working practices as well would be appealing, especially to those who maybe have families or are thinking of starting families. I think that that is something that needs to be looked at.

How would that be looked at, Claire, when we unfortunately have a shortage of teachers in Wales?

I think that there have been ideas of maybe having PPA in blocks, so that people could maybe take that PPA time as time that they could work from home, like they could in other professions.

Okay, great. Neil.

Well, just to take forward what Stuart said as well, with regard to workload, what is slightly frustrating, I'll be honest with you, is the heavy feeling of déjà vu. I think that, for certainly every year that I've been in this job, we have met with politicians and employers and talked about the issues with workload. We thought we had something going with the previous education Secretary, when he said, 'We're going to get a grip of this. We're going to get a grip of workload, set up workload committees, set up workload sub-committees.' They have been very pleasant, and we've done a lot of talking for a very long period of time, and there has been not one discernible slight difference with regard to workload at the classroom level. Nothing. Nothing whatsoever. No change whatsoever, and yet we've been talking now for around two years on this.

Can you send us any outcomes of those conversations, then, to our committee? 

Yes, that would be really helpful. 

We'd be interested to hear what was proposed as an outcome of your meetings.

With regard to all of these meetings?

Well, what proposals were the outcome?

Well, the trouble was, when it was set up in the first place, the parameters were very strongly aimed at school leadership. There was only one element of it—only one of the sub-committees—that even would have had the slightest impact with regard to the actual classroom, and that was with regard to engagement.

Now, that brings us into social partnership. The Welsh Government is very proud—and I think rightly so—of its record with regard to social partnership. There is no social partnership in schools. So, schools have been left off the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. It comes back to something that you said earlier on with regard to what the NAHT said. It said, 'Oh yes, mobile phones. Oh yes, we should ban those, but let's leave it up to us. Leave it up to us in terms of individual schools and individuals', and so on and so forth. That takes us back to the local management of schools where, basically, schools exist as individual islands. Most of them are very well managed, otherwise our job would be just basically unbearable, but quite a lot are not particularly well managed, and so they have serious problems there. So, there is no co-ordination, no co-operation, no collaboration.

It's all very well talking about collaboration. The Welsh Government does that a lot, and again, I think, quite rightly so. But where is it, and how can it happen under a system of local management of schools where schools exist as isolated units? And that's what NAHT is saying. It's what ASCL is saying as well. We think that it's wrong. There needs to be co-ordination and control, and it needs to come back to local authorities. Basically, that's the way we have consistency across the whole of Wales.

Can I just come in as well? Neil said that you are looking at what was discussed with workload. I think that it was due to the 2023 strikes that they were going to look at workload, as part of that agreement from the NEU that we would stop going on strike. That was the middle-tier reorganisation. That had nothing to do with the classroom, and members and friends that I speak to have said that that reorganisation of the middle tier has had no effect—no effect—on their workload and that there are still increases, not decreases, since 2023.

Practically, as far as your request is concerned, the managing workload group has been chaired by Anna Brychan. I think, perhaps, that it's worth this committee contacting the education—y gyfarwyddiaeth addysg—the education directorship, is it? Yes.

Okay, thank you. Natasha, is that it?

That's it from me. Thank you so much.

Fantastic. We now move on to questions from Cefin, please.

Diolch. Thank you. My first question is in English, and then I'll be asking my questions in Welsh. Just turning my question on its head, really, listening to what you've been saying, and others before you this morning, you mentioned the narrative around the negativity associated with being a teacher: the workload, the disruptive behaviour in classrooms, mental health issues—all of that stuff, right? Not being paid well enough, you've mentioned that as well this morning. So, all of that narrative that you're putting out as unions has a double-edged sword element to it, because it's creating that negative narrative. Now then, what I'd like to ask you is: what are the positives? What are you telling the profession and potential young people? What are the positives of being a teacher, rather than just homing in on the negatives? Because you need to change the narrative, I absolutely agree with that, but have you got a role to play in that? 

I would just say that the union is for members. So, we're not—. I don't feel we're spinning the narrative; we're representing how our members feel. I go around district meetings all across Wales and all I hear is how people are just completely crumbling under the workload, the behaviour of the pupils, and we're just representing their views back to you. That's what I feel our role is.

I know very well that if I said to one of our members, 'I know that you're facing appalling workload, I know that you're being abused and the management is not actually doing anything to support and protect you, but your union is not going to say anything about that, because we're worried about stopping people entering the profession and making it unattractive', it is not our role to do that. Our role is to represent our members and represent those issues.

But I will say this in response to your question: I was a classroom teacher for 30 years, a classroom teacher in terms of being a head of humanities, which was a classroom teacher role. That was the highest I ascended to in terms of school, because it was the highest I ever wanted to ascend to, because of the love of it. And I think you'll find this uniformly across teachers, by the way: the love of the job comes from the interaction with the children and the learners. I would have to say, in all those 30 years, I did not have one day that I would say was boring. You never have a dull moment. Every day is different. It can be a very exciting job. It can be a very rewarding job. And it is a fantastic feeling when you've got a group of children, or even individuals, small groups, in the palm of your hand, and they're following you through that educational journey. That's where the love of it comes in. But the trouble is—and you will have heard this many, many times before—there is so much around it that just makes it untenable, really, to continue in the way that it is. But the actual love of the job itself, that interaction with children, I think is the same, and always will be the same.

I'd say behaviour and workflows. I know it's already been mentioned lots today, but I'd say they're the two main issues. And I'd say there would be—. We know there's a massive amount of female teachers leaving in their 30s, and that's because there's just a complete lack of flexibility with regard to being a working mother. 

Workload. Definitely workload. We ask our members what is the main issue that they've got with mental health, with anything to do with their work, and the constant thing that comes out of it is workload. It's the high level of workload they've got to do, and it's not just initiatives and education reform. Those are piled on top, but nothing's taken away. So, instead of their work being the same, it's piled on, and nothing's taken away from them. Therefore, they feel the pressure, and ultimately, they will have to take some time off from work due to either stress, anxiety, depression, whatever it is to do with the job, and therefore, for a lot of people, that's the start of the end of their careers, because they can't go back because of the workload pressures. If you can get a grip of the work-life balance and the workload, I don't think we'd have as many people leaving the profession as we do now.

I think when it comes to pay, yes, they're underpaid, definitely underpaid. Address that, but then you have to address workload. You have to address workload. On the classroom level, as Neil said, you’ve got to address that. Once that is addressed, I think that you will stop seeing people leaving the profession, and you'll see people coming into the profession, because the pay will be rewarding and they've got a work-life balance. They don't have to go home and work from five till 10 o'clock at night, five, six days a week. Remember that teaching is one of the only professions where you can't do your paperwork during the day because you're in front of a class, you're teaching, and the amount of time you do have to do your paperwork is three lessons. It's 10 per cent PPA. That needs to be increased. That needs to be increased to at least 20 per cent, absolutely. If you address workload, I think that that will address, for a lot of people, the reasons why they leave the profession.

It definitely impacts on the retention of teachers because of the workload that's involved. Again, it is that one word: workload. If we take the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, for example, I've been speaking to additional learning needs co-ordinators that we've got, as members of our union, and they were telling us that it takes at least seven or eight hours to complete one individual development plan for a pupil. Now, in a large secondary school where they might have 20 per cent of pupils with additional learning needs, let's say 200 pupils, you're looking at 200x8 just to complete the development plans, and these are legally binding documents. So, the workload will definitely affect retention. As I said before, whether they'll research education before deciding to become a teacher and look at this, that will definitely have an impact on somebody, but I'm not sure if trainee teachers actually research education and have a look at the factors that are in there at the moment before they make their mind up. I think they go into teaching because they want to make a difference—that's why I went into teaching—but the ALN Act definitely has caused a lot of problems, and we are having people leaving because of the workload to do with that, definitely.

The Curriculum for Wales is another one. Obviously, we had COVID in the middle of preparing for that, and we did ask the Government to push back on the reforms, let COVID go and then start again, but they said 'no'. All the reforms carried on—the ALN reforms carried on, the Curriculum for Wales, the dates when it was implemented carried on the same. There was no hold-up and the workload that our members keep telling us about has definitely had an effect, and I would say that we've lost quite a few members, especially the older members who might be above 55 and who can access their pension, finding the work involved in preparing for the Curriculum for Wales—a curriculum they probably weren't going to teach anyway because it comes to the end of their career. They might have left earlier than anticipated because of the amount of work they had to do in preparation for it, and they weren't even going to teach their subject or the curriculum.  

And qualifications reform has been the icing on the cake with regard to all of that, because if all of that wasn't enough, along comes qualifications reform: 'Let's just take all of the qualifications and just throw them up into the air and mix and match'. We've been lobbied by our members and taken it forward to Qualifications Wales. Information communications and technology, English, history, the Welsh baccalaureate, science, Welsh, religious education, modern foreign languages and maths—all of these they've had severe difficulties with. After a lot of work and a lot of lobbying, we did have success in postponing the history GCSE by one year, but that's been an incredible increase in the amount of workload.

With regard to the Curriculum for Wales, by the way, we've always had concerns with that from day one simply because it was almost a blank piece of paper that was sent to teachers and said, 'Design your own curriculum—off you go'. In which case, then, given no time, given no resources—well, very little time; there were a few extra INSET days, I think, thrown into the mix, but, Stuart's right, COVID came along—effectively, they had to create this curriculum from scratch, and that was an appalling amount of workload that has taken place post COVID.

Could I just very quickly come back to your previous question because I didn't get an opportunity to answer, because you talked about it in terms of geographic differences? It's possibly not in the in the spirit of your question, but I'll give you what what I think is a worrying geographical difference. At NASUWT, we survey all of our members across the UK and we extrapolate the results for the different nations over many, many different questions. But one of the most concerning questions we ask is right at the end, when we ask them, 'Have you seriously considered leaving the profession?' Back in 2021 Wales was bottom of the list of the nations in terms of our members seriously considering leaving the profession. The last time we surveyed, which was just before Christmas, the results that we had were that we are now top of the list with regard to teachers seriously considering leaving the profession, at 77 per cent of those respondents. So, we've gone from the the happiest in terms of the nations through to the least happy, and I think that is a concerning statistic.

Can I come in on that, as well? We actually do the same—we survey our members and we did it in 2021. With regard to mental health and well-being, the 2021 figure was that 66 per cent of respondents were thinking of, or seriously considering, leaving the profession, and in 2023 that was down to 56 per cent—still a high number when you get more than 2,000 people responding.  So, you're looking at over 1,000 of those respondents who are going to leave the profession.

We did ask them if they were secondary or primary but we didn't look at that evidence, but when you look at the allocation figures and the amount of trainee teachers coming in to do their course, you lose 1,000 teachers, you're not going to fill that up, especially secondary, because they've not hit their allocation target since 2016-17. On the workload, mental health and well-being, NASUWT do the research and we do the research, and they more or less say the same thing—that people are fed up and they want to leave, for whatever reason. 

And just to add, we've got 29 per cent leaving teaching within three years of starting. So, they obviously were recruited in, they felt the profession was attractive enough to come into it, but they've left within three years. So, why would they be leaving within three years, after doing, probably, a very hard PGCE and wanting to do that profession?

Okay.

Chair, we haven't got time today, but I'd really be interested in having a deeper analysis of the figures that you have for why we've gone from bottom of the league table to the top, in a matter of, what was it, four years. It would be really interesting to understand why—why in that four years in particular.

Is there any way you can write to us with a sort of breakdown on those figures? Would that be possible?

Sorry?

Is there any way you can write to us with a breakdown? Would that be possible?

Yes, absolutely. You can have these. I can send them off after today.

Okay. Thank you very much. We move on now to Carolyn, please.

Thank you. How important is early career support and professional learning for retaining classroom teachers? Is the quality of that early career support adequate for them? 

And I also think, with the workload increasing, the people who are providing that support would probably be struggling to do it as well as we would hope that they could.

So, I've heard from teacher friends and relatives that it does vary, with the headteachers that they have, because some headteachers can offer flexibility and not expect you to be there till six o'clock in the evening, or see that you're doing a lot of work in class preparation. Is that something that you feel is happening as well?

Definitely. So, I work in an excellent school, and I've got an excellent headteacher, and we are free to leave and come and go when we're not teaching. Our head will do everything within their power to enable flexible working practices to take place for people returning from maternity leave, but we know we're not the majority.

And that's why you want that national guidance, really, to have more consistency. Okay.

Part and parcel of that, of course, is what Neil's already discussed at length—the need for social partnership at a school level, and a national expectation for that, a national requirement for that. As we say, there are some excellent, excellent heads, and they lead very, very effectively, but we need to make sure that everyone leads effectively and follows governmental requirements.

Okay. Thank you.

Can I just come in on that as well?

Yes.

We've got induction mentors to look after the career teachers in their first year, and they should have an induction mentor in every single school. Now, they must have the time to deal with the newly qualified teacher, to make sure that they're given the support they need to ensure that they pass their induction, that they meet the professional standards, so they can carry on with that career. If they're not given that time, then that's going to be a difficult job. I'm sure that varies from school to school, from area to area. But you've also, in the past, before the middle tier reform, had an external verifier—I think they're called 'external mentors' now—where somebody from the consortia was also linked. Now, if they're not there any more, we need to know who is then looking after the induction mentor in the school and who's looking after the newly qualified teacher. So, there are a lot of questions being asked there. As Claire mentioned, I looked at our membership and people leaving our membership over the past 12 months, and 30 per cent had left within the first three years. Now, whether that was due to lack of support in their first year—. There's definitely something there in the first three years. It could be the workload. Obviously, we didn't ask them; they just resigned their membership, but they've actually left the profession. So, it could be that their support wasn't quite there for them, so they weren't able to continue.

That data would be really interesting. So, if you could—. 

That data—

If you know the reason, it would be good to get that information from there.

I have responded to the inquiry. I didn't send it in until this morning, but that data is in that report. So, if you read the response that we've done, and if you need anything else, any extra information, please, get in touch, and I'll do what I can to get it. But, it is a 29 or 30-page document that I've sent, with lots of research, et cetera, in there for you.

If I could just add, one thing that we've been lobbying for a number of years on is for Estyn to look at teacher well-being when they go into schools. They look at learner well-being, but there's no serious consideration of teacher well-being, and that would be transformational, because one of the big problems that we have is—. And it does sound, I imagine, when you're talking to the unions, that we're anti-school-leadership or anti-headteacher; we're absolutely not, in terms of the job that they have to do and the pressures that they're under. But, some of the time, the problem is that, with regard to what they think they need to do in terms of self-evaluation, and who's breathing down their neck, that's then passed down the line and those pressures follow. So, if we have a situation whereby, actually, how happy, confident, fulfilled your staff are—because, by the way, it's a truism that happy teachers are good teachers—then maybe school leaders will look at that as being a priority, as something that they need to ensure, and I think that would be transformational.

Okay. Thank you. I think you can forfeit my other question.

Okay. Thank you, Carolyn. Thank you for saving us some time. We'll move on now, please, to Vaughan, who's on the screen.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Thank you, all, for your evidence this morning—now this afternoon. We've had lots of evidence before about retention issues that exist in Wales, but also a comparison with England as well, where we have a problem, but the situation looks even more challenging across the border. I wanted to ask if those challenges with both recruitment and retention cause you concerns about the quality of teaching, for those members who are still in the classroom, and support they have, and, in particular whether people are then teaching in a different sector or a different subject to the one they've trained in. I recognise that that can have an impact both for learners as well as for staff. If you can answer that, then I'll have one more question, because I'm interested in some of the conversations we had this morning around comparisons with what we're doing here in Wales and what we might do as well.

Yes. I'd just say, by the way, with regard to teaching outside your subject, I've been there. I was trained as a history teacher, and I was a history teacher, but I remember, in my first job, they decided that they'd make me—because, obviously, as a history teacher, you're going to be good at English, aren't you—'Go off, and why don't you teach some English and RE just on the side?' Through all of my career, especially when I became a middle leader, it was important as a middle leader to plug gaps as well within the faculty within which I worked. So, certainly, that's an issue.

What is, I think, really good about Wales rather than what happens over the border is still the requirement for you to be qualified, and long may that be so, because I think, if you start going down the route of allowing unqualified teachers, then I think we're on a very rocky road in terms of declining standards. So, I'm very grateful that the Welsh Government is standing firmly by that. It's really important that we maintain that. But, colleagues, anything else?

I'm a chemistry teacher. They did let me loose on physics 20 years ago. I've only done physics myself to year 9, and I was teaching it to year 8, and that does add to a workload because you have to prepare for a subject that's not yours. My big concern that has come since I've been involved in this role is—I don't know if you're aware—that there is no separate science GCSE anymore in Wales and, as a result, that means that there's a double-award science. So, from next year, no Welsh student can actually do a pure science GCSE. They can then go on to do A-levels, but that does obviously disadvantage them against their English counterparts with separate science qualifications. And I do think this has maybe arisen from the lack of science teachers—all three subjects are shortage subjects. But I think that means that we’re going to have even more biology teachers teaching physics and so on. And I know that we can diversify a bit, but, at top year 11 GCSE science, I couldn’t teach physics to those, but that is what is going to be expected of, and is already being expected of, us in state schools in Wales.

I think that’s been happening for the last 25 years. I qualified in 2001, and I was told, ‘You’re now a qualified teacher specialising in physical education’, which was my subject. But if I got a job in a school and they said, ‘You’re going to be teaching business studies; you’re going to be teaching maths’, then you had to teach it. And that’s been happening for the last 25 years, and I don’t think that’s going to change unless it’s addressed.

And I also go back to Neil’s point, where we’re talking about qualified teachers. The amount of teaching assistants and higher-level teaching assistants being asked to teach to cover absent colleagues is incredible. And that has been something that has been happening for the last 25 years as well. So, that needs to be addressed, because we need to have a qualified teacher in front of every single classroom, throughout the academic year, all the time. We shouldn’t have somebody who is what we call teaching on the cheap—so, they get paid a teaching assistant’s salary. They might be a qualified teacher, but can’t get a job. You’d think that would be easy, with the crisis that we’ve got in teaching at the moment. They’re asked to teach, but they’re not getting paid to teach. And that is happening all the time across Wales, and I’m sure across England as well. But that’s something that needs to be addressed as well. 

Can I—

Sorry, perhaps I should just point out, in terms of some of the comments around science teaching, back in the olden days, as my son says, when I was at school, I did a double science qualification. And I actually went to school in Mordor, over the border in England.

But I just want to come back to something that we were talking about on recruitment and retention, which is this point about comparison. So, you're national officers, working with a national Government here in Wales, and this is in respect of what takes place over the border. And some of this is in my mind in particular, because I understand Neil could return to us in the future as a general secretary of his union; he’s on the ballot, and, correct me if I’m wrong, but the only qualified teacher on the ballot as well. I’m interested in your take on is there anything you’d look at over the border that you’d say that we could and should do here in Wales to help with recruitment and retention, or is there anything you’d take from Wales that you would say would make a difference over there as well. I think it’s important to understand are there things we have got right, or are looking to get right, or are there things we could learn as well.

First of all, thank you for mentioning that. [Laughter.] It does mean that I’ve got to be very careful in terms of what I’m going to say, because, I have to say, for all of the conversation that we’re having today, and, indeed, have had in the past, and over all the issues with regards to education, things are better in Wales. Otherwise, we’d have a real problem. We’ve got a very long border with England, and we’d have a real problem. My school, you could see England from, in terms of where I taught. And I could easily have just nipped over the border to Shrewsbury to teach. But I never attempted to do so, because I think things are better in Wales.

Now, there are a few quibbles on that, by the way, and I could mention a few things that I think are slightly worse. But, in terms of starting pay, it’s slightly higher. We have got better conditions of service in Wales. We do have social partnership with Government. We have social partnership with local authority employers; it’s a niggle that we don’t have it at school level, but I’m not entirely sure it exists at all in England, expect in isolated cases—maybe academies, progressive academies.

So, in that sense, I think it is better in Wales, and we do know, of course, that our recruitment and retention is better in terms of England as well, the statistics. But it is important that it is so, and long may it be so. We, I think, would like it to be a lot better. I think we’ve got a long way to go.

As would we. 

It could be a lot better. But it is better, and thank goodness it is, otherwise we would have a little bit of a problem of flight over the border, I think.

Just to add to that, yes, when I was at the national conference—the NEU national conference—earlier this year, I was horrified by some of the stories I heard from our English colleagues, things that were happening in academies there. So, yes, I definitely think that part of it is definitely better in Wales.

Can I bring Natasha in, quickly, here?

Just a quick question; it’s related to retention. Claire, you mentioned the double science. Sorry, the triple science, the three sciences becoming a double science—sorry, I got tongue-tied there. But, yes, obviously, that’s the way things are going.

Yes, that already exists. 

It already exists, but I just wanted to ask you: for those teachers that, obviously, taught biology, chemistry, physics individually, with regards to recruitment and retention, where are the other two going? So, if, for example, we are in a school with biology, chemistry and physics, and now the school is teaching double science, where are the other two teachers being placed?

They would still be taught all three sciences, but they only end up with two GCSEs. So, they're like two thirds of it—

So, in relation to the retention and recruitment of the teachers, we're still in employment—we're not going anywhere.

Yes.

That's what I wanted to clarify.

I would say that you're gold dust if you're a science teacher in Wales.

I know, from my understanding—

If you can teach multiple sciences, you are gold dust, yes.

Fine, understood. Thanks.

Vaughan, do you have any further questions?

No, I think, given the time, Chair, and I think that they've largely covered all the areas of questioning in a previous conversation. But I would be really interested in looking at the evidence they've provided on the relatively reform-heavy environment and how much that does or doesn't make a difference, and what we might be able to recommend to the education Secretary to do about that.

Okay, thank you. We now have some questions from Joel James, please.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. You just mentioned there about the situation being better for teachers in Wales than in England, and I just wanted to get a better idea of the role of the Welsh Government in that in terms of—. Obviously, they provide bursaries and financial incentives and that to get into teaching. How effective, in your mind, is that? And if you could maybe cite some examples, that would be brilliant, in terms of Welsh Government involvement, previously but now as well, in terms of maintaining teacher levels within schools and getting them into the profession in the first place, if that's okay.

I think, in terms of getting them into the profession, it goes back to what we said right at the beginning, which is to try to make it a more attractive profession. Certainly, in terms of the work that we as the education unions have done with the Welsh Government, one thing that we have in Wales as well, separate from the Welsh Government and quite rightly so, is the IWPRB—the Independent Wales Pay Review Body—which is properly independent. Certainly, with the School Teachers' Review Body in England, I think I would have questioned their independence up until recently. And so, because we had a properly independent IWPRB, that would then report to the Welsh Government, and we would jointly, in collaboration with the Welsh Government, create the remit to the IWPRB, we could control—. Well, I say 'control'; that's the wrong word. We had influence over improvements in conditions of service for teachers. And that's why I think I would confidently say that the conditions for a teacher in Wales are better than in England, because the blue book, which, effectively, governs teachers' conditions, has got more positive elements to it. For example, if you are a teaching and learning responsibility holder, a middle leader who has full responsibility for a particular area, if you're a part-time teacher, then you're not paid the full amount for that full responsibility. Over the border, in Wales, you are, because that was changed. It was in the remit. The IWPRB thought that was a positive idea, and recommended that to the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government accepted it, and it goes into the contract. There were other examples of that as well, in terms of performance-related pay, for example. That's gone, and that was always a real problem in terms of teacher retention, I think.

And pay portability.

Pay portability. That's something that they haven't got over the border. So, basically, I think, in terms of our role, it is that collaboration that we've had with the Welsh Government, which has been fed into the conditions of service with the blue book and has made a real positive difference for teachers in Wales. I don't think it's gone far enough, by the way, but there have been positive developments there.

So, can you cite anything—? It's almost as if you're saying that the independence of the body is the thing that matters, compared to what's in England—to me, that says, well, less Government involvement, if that makes sense, in that body. But what about teacher retention bursaries and all that? How much of an impact have they had, then? Has the Welsh Government been proactive enough in trying to address the situation there?

I'll come in and answer that one. The bursaries have been there for at least 25 years. I do know that, when I did my PGCE in 2001, I was given a bursary: £300 a month and £2,000 pounds if I finished my first year of teaching. So, they've been there for 25 years. If we look at the crisis we have in secondary school retention and recruitment at the moment, it seems to me that those bursaries are not working, because it's not attracting people in, it's not keeping them in. Again, look at our membership. As I said, we had 30 per cent leaving within the first—well, just between May and April this year, 30 per cent leaving in the first three years. Are they getting a golden handshake after two years and then saying, 'Well, thank you very much, I'm going to go elsewhere to a profession where I might have a better work-life balance and I might get better paid'? So, for the bursaries, I'm not sure if they work, but, if they weren't there, would that mean that we'd have even more of a crisis than we've got at the moment? Possibly, we don't know. Unless the Welsh Government have done any research into that, we don't know. But they've been there for 25 years and we're still in this position 25 years later, so, possibly the money that they're putting into that could be better directed elsewhere.

I think you've raised quite good points there in terms of that lack of data. That's something that was always raised in the other evidence sessions as well. I suppose my final question is, obviously you mentioned yourselves the work that you've been doing in terms of trying to retain teachers: are there any other bodies out there that you think should be doing more to be involved in this as well? In the previous evidence session, we had the EWC—what role could you see them having to be more involved in this, do you think, or are there any other bodies?

Okay. Thank you.

Just very quickly on that, I would say not with EWC, I don't think. I think that there are issues there. But it just goes back, very quickly, to what I said earlier on with regard to Estyn. If the inspectorate could look at education in the round, holistically, rather than concentrating on particular areas that then drive very aggressive accountability measures right the way down to the classroom, then I think that that would make a significant difference. So, that's where I think an external body would have a significant and very positive role. 

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, and thank you for joining us this morning. We really appreciate your time. You'll be sent a transcript in due course for checking. So, thank you again. 

I'll now move on to item 5, which is papers to note. We have 10 papers to note today, full details of which are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note papers together? Yes, I can see they are. 

Moving on to item 6, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are Members content? I can see they are. We'll now move on in private.