National Assembly for Wales

Bore da. Croeso. Good morning and welcome to this morning's meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in the Senedd, the Welsh Parliament. We have received no apologies for absence from committee members, although two Members are still to join us. Do Members present have any declarations of registrable interest they wish to place on the record? None that I can see. Obviously, a record of Members' interests is publicly accessible for anyone who wishes to see them.

We have a number of papers to note. The first one relates to the Audit Wales report on 'The Biodiversity and Resilience of Ecosystems Duty': consideration of Welsh Government response. We considered the Audit Wales report at our meeting on 13 March and agreed the findings would be of interest to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, given its recent inquiry on biodiversity. We wrote to that committee accordingly, and they noted our letter at their meeting on 27 March. We don't anticipate that they will undertake any work on these matters, given their recent inquiry into halting and reversing the loss of nature by 2030. The Welsh Government has responded to the report, accepting all but one of the auditor general's recommendations, which it has partially accepted. So, could I invite the auditor general to comment on the response received?

Thanks, Mark. Generally, we're comfortable with the response, but, Matt, would you like to add any points of detail from our perspective? 

Yes. So, we've been engaging with Welsh Government officials over the past month or so, just to ensure they understood what we were looking for in terms of actions in response to our recommendations. So, where you see an indication that they've accepted the recommendation, I think, in broad terms, we're happy that they're committed to the action that we were expecting to see in response. You'll see from some of the responses that they refer to the new environmental legislation that the Welsh Government's been proposing. The timetable for that isn't made clear in the response. So, some of the recommendations and actions in the response very much hinge on what would have emerged and evolved from that legislation. And I'm anticipating that, indeed, as that is brought forward, if it's brought forward, within this Senedd term, this may well end up back with the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for scrutiny.

So, I think, on that basis, I wouldn't be proposing further action by the committee at this stage. We'll be keeping track on action in response to our recommendations. Some of the actions are in the spirit of 'the proof will be in the pudding' of how far the Welsh Government actually goes in following through on some of what it said it would do as we approach the end of this reporting period under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. So, we're expecting public bodies to be going through the cycle of reporting again towards the end of 2025 on their actions in response to the biodiversity duty.

Okay. Thank you very much. Members, do you have any comments or are you otherwise content to note the response? And would you be content to refer the report and response to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee? No comments? Happy to proceed on that basis; that's lovely. Thank you very much indeed. 

Our second paper to note is a response from the director general for economy, energy and transport from the Welsh Government, Andrew Slade, to myself as Chair regarding an update on Gilestone Farm. I wrote to the director general on 20 March, seeking an update on the position with Gilestone Farm and responses to a number of our questions regarding the ongoing management of the farm and leasing arrangements. We'll be considering our draft report on Gilestone Farm later this morning and may wish to consider reflecting the contents of this letter in the drafting of that. Members, currently, do you have any comments you wish to make on the response or are you otherwise content to note it until we discuss it later when we review the draft report? Thank you. I understand that the main issue highlighted is the valuation, which I believe falls below the purchase price, but we'll come to that later.

Our next paper to note is the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales's report 2025. The future generations commissioner has a statutory duty to publish a report summarising their work and findings under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. By law, the report must be published no later than one year before each Senedd election. The report we've now received is the second of its kind to be published since the passing of the Act in 2015. It sets out an assessment of progress thus far, targeted advice and examples of change already happening in public services.

The report should be considered alongside the statutory report of the Auditor General for Wales on the implementation of the Act, which also must be published one year before each Senedd election. We will consider the auditor general's report under our next item.

At its meeting on 31 March, the Equality and Social Justice Committee agreed to undertake post-legislative scrutiny of the well-being of future generations (Wales) Act. The terms of reference for that inquiry are to consider how far the intended objective of the Act is being achieved; any actions that should be taken to improve the effectiveness of the Act and its implementation, including any specific drafting issues; whether the review and reporting requirements under the Act are being met; the effectiveness of guidance made under the Act; how far the Act has been legally binding and enforceable; and how far the Act has represented and will continue to represent value for money.

With the Equality and Social Justice Committee already announcing an inquiry, members of this committee may wish to consider deferring both the future generations commissioner's report and the auditor general's report to the Equality and Social Justice Committee for consideration. However, members of this committee may wish to consider whether they want to pass on any reflections to the Equality and Social Justice Committee on themes relevant to their inquiry arising from the reports, as there is an opportunity to do this during the private session of today's meeting. So, auditor general, do you have any comments?

Not at this stage, Mark. As you said, we're briefing you more fully on our report shortly, so we can cover anything we need to say during that session.

Thank you. Members, do you have any comments? No, okay. Therefore you're content, I hope, to just note the report until we proceed as otherwise discussed.

We have a fourth paper to note—Audit Wales report on the implementation of the well-being of future generations (Wales) Act itself, as previously referred to. The auditor general, as you know, has published his statutory report on this. Again, any comments, auditor general? No. Members, any comments or otherwise content to note? Content to note.

In which case, I propose that in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are all Members content? I see that Members are content. I'd be grateful if we could be taken to private session.