National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee. Item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. No apologies have been received. The meeting is being held in hybrid format as usual. The public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and a record of proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation is available. All other Standing Order requirements remain in place, apart from adaptations relating to conducting proceedings in a hybrid format. Are there any declarations of interest from committee members? No.

We will move on to item 2, which is regarding our inquiry into the role, governance and accountability of the community and town council sector. I'm very pleased to welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government for this evidence session. Welcome, Cabinet Secretary, and also welcome to your officials: Lisa James, deputy director of the local government policy division; and Kevin Griffiths, head of local government partnerships policy.

Okay, perhaps I might begin, then, with a few initial overview questions, and, firstly, in terms of vision and strategy. I think your own evidence paper to committee, Cabinet Secretary, touches on the work of your democratic health task and finish group and one of their findings that, in terms of town and community councils, their purpose is unclear and inconsistent, with no clear vision or strategy, including how the sector interrelates with other partners, such as principal councils or the third sector. We heard in evidence from One Voice Wales that they believe that there is a need for a clear vision and strategy from Welsh Government, as they see it. So, in terms of the vision thing, then, Cabinet Secretary, who should be providing it and what are your views on what it might be?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and thank you for the invitation to attend the committee this morning to discuss this. Town and community councils are an independent tier of government. There's a democratic and sovereignty issue there, and you'll know that there are 732 community councils. Each are accountable to their electorate and not to Welsh Ministers. As you've mentioned, I know that you've heard evidence that the Welsh Government should tell the sector what its purpose and vision should be, but as you'll know, following the 2018 review into the sector, I think One Voice Wales and the Welsh Local Government Association both felt that they should lead the work to provide that clarity.

I'd also like to put on record my thanks for the work of the democratic health task and finish group, led by Shereen Williams, and thank them for the report that they have done and all the work, particularly the breadth and the depth of the work in this area. Obviously, they've left us a significant challenge. They've put that challenge to us. I haven't responded to that report yet. My view is that I will reflect on that report but also reflect on the findings of this inquiry as well, in addition to the work of Audit Wales as well. So, there's a body of work to consider on that. 

Just finally, I think that the democratic health group suggested that there should be a reflection on purpose, as you say, in the current local government landscape, but that it shouldn't be confined just to size and structure. I think that any consideration of the purpose, going forward, must be a consultation with taxpayers and the public. 

Okay, Cabinet Secretary. Lee Waters.

Can I just test you on your first answer? I agree with you, town councils are sovereign. It's not for the Welsh Government to tell them what their purpose is; their purpose is to answer to their local voters. So, I wasn't sympathetic to the One Voice Wales evidence in that regard. But I just wonder if there's more to it than that. So, for councils that qualify for general competence powers, so they've met a threshold of showing that they are decently run bodies, I wonder if there is a strategic role, which Welsh Government could set out, for saying that there is more that some town councils could do if they wanted to, and these are the things where we think they could stretch themselves to provide a greater purpose. I wonder if there's a triangulation possible there.

I think you raise an important point, because there's still a lot to do in this area. I'd be interested in what the committee comes up with within their findings, but also looking, as I said, within the body of work that's been done by Audit Wales and also at the task and finish group. I don't know if Kevin would like to say anything in particular on that.

So, there's a fair challenge there. I think there's an argument for that to be a discussion with their principal council about where the space is for them to stretch into—whether there's space for them to take on local assets, for example. That tends to happen at a local level, and I know there are some discussions happening there. There's always a risk with Welsh Government setting direction that people assume that that's what they should be doing, I guess, so there's a conversation to be had about what space there is for those councils. It could be framed as opportunities for them to be more ambitious, but I think you'd have to tread a careful line there. 

Well, except that we do it with other things, don't we? So, let's think: this is an absurd example, but one that pops into my head—eco schools. We have a range of categories of eco schools and for those that want to be a platinum, for example, there's a set of benchmarks for what a 'platinum' looks like. If they want to step into that space, they can. So, I'm trying to suggest that there's a bit more nuance than simply saying, 'You can offload your liabilities.' There's a more creative role here if the Welsh Government chooses to explore it, I think, is my challenge.

Yes, I think that we'd be open to that idea, because there are ways—. I think that we've seen some examples where community councils are doing well in that. I was up in north Wales last week and there were discussions around opportunities that one local authority had around working with the community council about taking over a library. So, there are lots of real opportunities there, but I think at the moment they are sporadic and we're certainly not seeing that across the board. But how we can share that good practice as well is really important, but making sure that they're empowered to do that.

Thank you.

Yes, we've had an interesting exhibition that included town and community councils in the Neuadd last week, and they were doing some really good stuff on local environmental issues and quality green spaces and allotments. And some of them were quite ambitious, and it was very good to see that I thought.

And I think one of the really good examples was when One Voice Wales came together at their conference, they had an exhibition of all stalls and I know that Criccieth Town Council and Blaenavon in particular were doing some really, really good work, so there are ways that they can try to come together to showcase some of that. And I know that the event here went well in the Senedd.

It did. In fact, I was talking to the people from Criccieth and it was very impressive to hear—not just what they'd done, but their plans as well.

Yes.

And in the floods, Pontypridd Town Council really stepped up.

Absolutely, yes.

So, I think what I'm just trying to suggest is, there is a layer of town councils that is showing its capabilities that could be doing more, but just because everybody can't, it doesn't mean that those that can shouldn't be encouraged to stretch themselves.

No, and I think there's that challenge, isn't there, about allowing people to go as fast as they can and to do what they want while not being held up by those who aren't able to do that?

Altaf.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning. I was a community councillor for 10 years and also a county councillor for five. Now, I have seen some of the areas in Neath Port Talbot where there are no councils. So, when we talk about your vision, what happens to those areas and have you thought about them? And are there any more, really, in the rest of Wales, that you can bring them back into, while we have these, town and community councils?

As you say, there are town and community councillors who do a lot of really good work and are visible in their community as well. But, unfortunately, that's not across the whole of the piece, and that's something that the democratic health task and finish group have discovered as well. I think it is really important that we try to support those who are visible and who are keen and, importantly, are engaged with their community, because that's the bottom line, isn't it? We want this tier of government to be accountable at the ballot box, and that means that they should be accountable to their community, doing what their community wants, and I think there are examples, as I've just said, and as Lee has mentioned, Pontypridd Town Council, which has really helped during the floods recently. So, we do have those examples, but this is a tier of government that—they're not accountable to me, they're accountable to their residents, so I think we have to really be clear on that.

Okay. James.

Are there ways, Cabinet Secretary, where Welsh Government can work more closely, say, with town and community councils, for example on public conveniences on trunk roads? Some of those aren't accessible, some of them are in an awful state, in a way. The Welsh Government probably don't have the money to do anything with them. Town and community councils in those areas could actually probably do more to enhance them, make them more accessible through their precepts and local taxes. It helps the local economy in terms of adding places for people to stop, so they haven't got to worry about going to the loo, especially in terms of accessibility elements. Those that are on the trunk road are normally owned by the Welsh Government, and it's how you work closely, then, with town and community councils, because they're one of the bodies that could actually help deliver it. Because if you ask the local authorities to help, they turn around and say, 'Sorry, we don't have any money to help you to do that', and then toilets ultimately close or—. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? So, is there more work Welsh Government could do with town and community councils directly to help them in this area?

Yes, an important point, and I see where you're going with the trunk roads specifically. I think that we all—

It's the responsibility of the Welsh Government, that's why.

Yes. So, there have been good examples where local authorities and town and community councils have worked together and looked to work together, and I think it's about looking at partnership. We have those partnerships with local authorities and I think those partnerships with town and community councils are always explored. I don't know if there are any examples around Wales of that specifically happening, or if any community council has come to the Welsh Government for that.

Not on the public toilets point, as far as I'm aware, but potentially it's an opportunity. Town and community councils have the ability to get engaged in that, but whether there's a role for Welsh Government in actively offering that, potentially—

So, they are your assets, basically.

Yes.

I can think of my own constituency—there are a lot of assets that the Welsh Government own in terms of public conveniences, right on the side of trunk roads. Some of them are in an awful state and I think that is somewhere where the Welsh Government could work directly with town and community councils to actually improve those conveniences, so that the Welsh Government could enable things to happen and it helps their areas.

We look forward to hearing from the community councils involved and their plans on that.

Okay, James? If we move on to the independent review panel, Cabinet Secretary, and, again, referring to your evidence paper, you state some of the main issues that are still outstanding from that piece of work, and that you expect to return to those recommendations at a later point. Could you say a little bit more about the process and the timings on that, Cabinet Secretary, on those outstanding recommendations and points?

Yes, thank you. We've done a lot to deliver against the recommendations. I know that my predecessor previously reported on this, but just to give a few examples: we've completed a round of community boundaries and another cycle has already begun; we've facilitated the sharing of good practice through publishing a digital and social media guide; we have provided access to the general power of competence to eligible community councils; we've identified and prioritised funding for core training for councillors through a bursary; we've provided a bursary and training for clerks to attain a certificate in local council administration; and we've also legislated for community councils to provide annual reports. There are things that we have done on that. But there are some areas where, obviously, progress has yet to be made, as you've mentioned, Cadeirydd, and I just want to remind the committee that those recommendations were for all sectors, and not just for Welsh Government. For example, One Voice Wales and the WLGA felt that they should lead on matters relating to defining the services that would be delivered by town and community councils, and dual-hatted councillors—there's been resistance from the sector to limiting the pool of potential candidates by restricting co-option up to one term, although I have noted that the democratic health task and finish group have also suggested that we review that. But I'm open to the idea of a proportionate intervention regime, but I'm just very mindful of the effort required. The focus has been, really, on trying to support the sector to be more robust before turning to more developmental actions. So, things have been done, there are things to be done, not just by Welsh Government, but I am mindful that we've been looking to help make that sector more robust.

Okay, so there's nothing, really, you could tell us on timings for any of that at the moment.

Not specifically on the timings, or is there, Kevin?

No. A number of the actions that the Cabinet Secretary referred to that haven't necessarily fully happened yet, the actions that were for Welsh Government to explore, to consider—dual-hatted was one example—they remain under regular review. The fact that the limit on co-option has been raised again by the democratic health group suggests that there's reason to keep investigating that, but, obviously, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, there's pushback. But in the main, the things on the list that remain are actions for the longer term. Another action was for a national campaign. Democratic health has given suggestions on how to conduct that and how much that might cost, and that can be kept on the table. So, they're not the kinds of actions that either happen or don't happen within 12 months, they're the kinds of actions that remain under thought.

Again, the Cabinet Secretary mentioned the work of One Voice Wales and the WLGA to take forward their view on what place-based services are and which functions are best led by community councils, and which are best led by principal councils. That's still ongoing, as far as I'm aware. So, they are thought pieces, rather than actions.

I think Lisa wants to come in. 

Okay.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. I just wanted to say a little bit about the twin-hatter issue, because we have consulted on that a couple of times, and there hasn't been a consensus reached on that one. It's quite difficult, because there are—I don't have the numbers, but a significant number of principal councillors are also town and community councillors, so if we were to suddenly come to a dead stop in terms of twin-hatters, then we might find that the town and community council sector is short of potential candidates for seats. So, there's a long-term piece of work that is ongoing under our diversity and democracy programme to try and encourage more of a pipeline of people into politics. This week the Cabinet Secretary launched the disabled people's network for people interested in politics, so that's quite a long, slowish process trying to encourage more people to stand. So, the issue about removing the twin hat is tied into that, and encouraging more people to put themselves forward to be community councillors as well.

Just on that, Cabinet Secretary, what do you see as the main concerns around dual-hatting, as it were? What are the main problems it throws up, as it were, in terms of issues?

I think it's very much a long-standing issue in terms of dual-hattedness—'hattedness', is that a word? I'm calling it a word now. [Laughter.]

It is now. [Laughter.]

I think the challenge is—there's part of it with the community, isn't there—about understanding who's representing, whether it's the community council or the local authority at that time. I think it's how we can be clear about that, because I am somebody who thinks it's important that, as politicians, we are very clear about our roles, what we can and can't do in what guise. Sometimes, that can easily get blurred if that's the case, but that's from a community perspective, I think. Obviously, it has its benefits, when perhaps there's a councillor who is able to understand some of the more challenging things that happen in a local authority, and they're able to feed that in. But that's just one of the examples where I see the community feeling, perhaps, unclear about who is doing what, when, and what people can do.

I suppose there might be a difference of view, as well, mightn't there, between a community council and a principal authority, and if somebody's on both, they're in a rather difficult position, really, aren't they?

Yes. It's difficult to wear two hats in those circumstances, isn't it?

Yes. Okay. Moving on to the democratic health task and finish group and the recommendations that they've made, and, indeed, recommendations that will come out of this committee's inquiry, we heard from One Voice Wales that it would like to see full and meaningful engagement with the sector in 2025-26, to align with your review of the sector, Cabinet Secretary. I just wonder if you can say anything in terms of that view from One Voice Wales and how you see the process unfolding.

Yes. Thank you. Diolch, Cadeirydd. Again, I'd just thank the democratic health task and finish group for their work on that and Shereen Williams in particular. Just to say, in terms of the comment from One Voice Wales, I know that there isn’t a commitment to review the sector again in 2025-26. We've got that task and finish group, we've got the Audit Wales report and we'll have your committee inquiry report, so I think we'll have all the evidence we need to develop the next steps. I do note that my predecessor did propose a review of core funding to One Voice Wales for future years, based on the outcome of the work, but that's obviously a very different proposal. But, I'll obviously consider that once I have all the evidence from this inquiry and the task and finish group, as well, and Audit Wales.

It wouldn't be possible at this stage, then, Cabinet Secretary, would it, to say anything about the extent to which we might see change, or you would expect to see change in the way that town and community councils operate?

No, as I said, we'll take this in the round, and I think, obviously, there would be that engagement with the sector, as well, and I can assure Members of that, as you would imagine. But, at the moment, I'll wait to see all the reports in the round, which I think is the right thing to do.

Okay. James.

Cabinet Secretary, do you think there is a role for the Welsh Government and local authorities to do more to promote the work of what town and community councils do? That task and finish group said that one of the key parts is that a lot of people don't know what town and community councils actually do. A lot of people just think it's a bit of a job for the boys, that type of thing—the old boys who go down the pub on a Saturday night, that type of thing, and they all cabal together once a week or once a month for a meeting to discuss nothing and off they go again. That's generally the perception of town and community councils across the country. But what I'm interested in is if you think there is a role—perhaps not for the Electoral Commission, because they don't administer those types of elections—for local government and the Welsh Government actually to do a big educational piece of, 'Your town and community councils deliver this. They are a tax-raising body, so, in your council tax bills, you will see that an annual precept goes to your town and community council. You're paying money to these people to act on your behalf. This is what they can and cannot do for you'. Do you think that's something that the Welsh Government and local authorities should be doing more of, rather than—? There are questions raised, and we'll come on to them, about financial accountability, but this is where the Welsh Government and local authorities, through the Welsh Local Government Association, could actually explain more about the work they do.

First of all, I know you said about some of the perceptions, but I know that's not the same across all town and community councils. Like I say, I've had the opportunity to meet some of those and I know they certainly wouldn't recognise the boys' club, but I do understand the perception by others. But, yes, I think it's really important that people know what town and community councils do. Like I say, there's an opportunity to vote, there are elections for these bodies, they should be accountable to their communities, and there are community councils and community councillors who do what they can to promote their work. But, absolutely, there's not enough of that, and I think that's something that we would want to see.

Obviously, as I said at the start, they are their own body and they have to do—. They have their opportunity to promote what they do. I mean, at the end of the day, if they're doing things, surely, they should be telling people what they're doing. You know, we all know that here, that we should be shouting about the good things that we're doing. But it's also about the public knowing how that money's being spent, isn't it, and how they're spending that money on things that the public want to see. So, the community engagement is absolutely crucial, and I'm sure that will be something that we'll be looking at within the body of work that comes before us from this committee and the other part, about how we can promote that. I'd like to see where the good examples lie with local authorities and community councils, as we've previously discussed, how that's helped to be promoted as well, because, you know, we should be shouting about those things, because, otherwise, people are doing things and they're not getting the credit for it.

Okay. We'll move on, then, to Lesley Griffiths. Lesley. 

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning. We've talked about the relationship between principal and local councils, and obviously, then, with the community and town councils. We took evidence from the WLGA, and I think you said in your own evidence, Cabinet Secretary, that it's a very diverse sector. Certainly, when we took evidence from the WLGA—it was Anthony Hunt—so, in Torfaen, where you have a few town and community councils, he was describing the relationship as very positive, but I think it's fair to say that that's not the case across the whole of Wales. As is often the case, I think people think that the Welsh Government should be doing more in relation to that. You said yourself it's an independent tier of government, but I wonder what you think about the Welsh Government doing more to nurture that relationship.

Thank you. Thank you for that question. As we said, I heard from Blaenavon community council, which is in Councillor Anthony Hunt's area—and I was at the conference as well—and about the work that they were doing. We've heard about Pontypridd Town Council, who mobilised very quickly when storm Bert flooded the town recently. I also heard, as I mentioned, it was Denbighshire County Council who were exploring working with its community councils around library services, and Ynys Môn are also keen to work with their community councils, when I was discussing this issue with them recently. So, there's enthusiasm locally for that and that's really positive. But, as you said in your question, it's patchy and it does happen in, unfortunately, a minority of cases, and I do think that's probably the by-product of having 754 different sovereign bodies involved. But developing that sustainable relationship between community and principal councils really is a job for them. It's not always that the Welsh Government can step in to do these things. Obviously, we have a role in providing a framework for that and encouraging councils to use that framework, but, obviously, they are that separate tier of government and they're not the subset of a principal council.

But I am pleased that the WLGA and One Voice Wales signed a memorandum of understanding to work more closely together. That was launched at the One Voice Wales conference in October, and Councillor Lis Burnett was there to sign that. It's obviously a very encouraging sign of that commitment to partnership and collaboration and support for both organisations. And, you know, I think we can all hope that this can be a launching point, a very meaningful point. So, I look forward to see how that develops.

You mentioned how many there are. Do you think we should reduce the number? Some of them, literally, do nothing but run a village hall, for instance, as you say. I don't agree with James Evans around perception. Certainly, in my own constituency, we've got some very forward looking and very good community councils that do absolutely get the message out there about what they're doing, and some of them are dealing with significant sums of funding. But do you think we should reduce? Do you think we should abolish the complete tier of town and community councils?

Thank you for that question. It really depends on what the community councils are for. There's a balance around the right level of representation to understand those local issues and needs versus the capacity and the capability of the sector. Obviously, there are reviews around the community council numbers and sector regularly. We've had a number of those recently. I don't know if you want to say a bit more about the reviews of those.

So, there are five under way at the moment, there's another two or three planned, and the remaining principal authorities will get to their reviews within the next local government term, I believe. There is a process for reviewing whether the boundary sizes are correct. The policies for those sizing arrangements are set by the principal authority at the moment. One of the proposals from the democratic health task and finish group was that there should be an exercise to review that policy and make it, perhaps, apply uniformly across Wales. To answer that challenge, I think, which is how many small ones exist because of historical reasons versus how much capacity and capability is in that area to deliver something functional for the community, 'there's no exact science' is the unofficial answer, but I think the view is that it probably does need a look at, and there's a mechanism for that happening. But if I—

There is a mechanism.

There is a mechanism, yes, through the community reviews. If it may help just to illustrate why some of the relationship are tricky, there are 110 community councils in Powys, so that's 110 different community councils who want to have their own charter agreement with the county council. 

[Inaudible.]

Yes, that's complicated—but one in Merthyr Tydfil and four in Blaenau Gwent. So, it can be difficult, or it can be hard, and that creates a lot of work for the principal council as well. And I think, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, dictating terms of reference for every council isn't practical, because every council wants to do its own thing. So, there's a framework in place, but it's understandable why it is patchy. I just wanted to illustrate why it's difficult, to add to the Cabinet Secretary's answer.

Do you see it as part of your role, Cabinet Secretary, to make sure that best practice travels well?

I'm always keen to help shout about best practice, so I do see how I can help in sharing that best practice. As I said, One Voice Wales have a mechanism with their conference and how they engage with community councils, and I think that local authorities, obviously, through the WLGA, have that role as well. If people don't know what to expect from their community council, that can also help challenge others, can't it? When you see community councils that are doing some really forward-looking things, as you've mentioned in your questions, I think that challenges other community councils who aren't doing as much, because what we want to see is those community councillors being visible within their communities and doing the work that their communities want them to do. So, I think it's all our role, really, to help shout about and share the good practice, and I know there are platforms to do that. But I hope the memorandum of understanding with the WLGA and One Voice Wales will also help take that to another level. 

You'll be aware that it's taken many, many years to get the principal councils to be able to collaborate in a way that we all thought was the way forward. Do you have any views on bringing—? If you don't rationalise them and bring them together to make them bigger, have you any views on how we can encourage community councils and town councils to work together on a much bigger footprint, if they didn't want to reduce the numbers? I think you said, Kevin, that there are 120 in Powys. I know it's a big county, but to have 120, I think, is completely ridiculous. So, are there any ideas coming forward as to how we can help them collaborate together, or would you direct them in any way to be able to do that in a way that has been done with local authorities on a regional basis?

Thank you. Again, there's been some work with some community councils, like the Ynni Ogwen partnership in Gwynedd. So, there have been examples where they have come together and clustered. There's a process to enable formal grouping of community councils to become a common community council under section 27 of the Local Government Act 1972. It requires the support of the communities within that cluster, which I think would be sensible. From a purchasing and contracting perspective, I think it can work, but it's got to be a locally led decision. We know that several clerks work across several community councils as well, but it isn't a huge leap, really, then to think that they could pool those resources. Again, I've given one example, but I'm not aware of many others, and I think that's something where we could look with interest at what's happening in Gwynedd. Again, it's about sharing the capabilities and the good practice of clustering, really, but it comes down to that capacity. In our experience, in the main, community councils, unfortunately, don't work together, but I think there's a huge opportunity, isn't there?

And just finally, Chair, do you think that the current legislation in this area is fit for purpose?

I think that we've got the legislation, and I think that, as I said earlier in my answer, we're looking to support community councils and to develop, to progress, in the way that they can do. So, I think, at the moment, we've got the work that's coming forward from yourselves, from the task and finish group and Audit Wales, and I think that will give us a firmer picture. 

Okay. And James. 

Just out of interest, do you think town and community councils provide good value for money for taxpayers? You've got to look and say—. Take Powys, for example: you've got some areas in Powys where the precepts are almost verging up to £800,000, £900,000, and then you've got other community council areas where it could be as low as £1,000. At one point there was a community council that didn't even have, or hardly had, a precept at all, because I think it was one of the smallest community councils in the country, with a resident population of about 200 to 300 people on the electoral roll. So, then you've got to look at the precept level: say someone living in Brecon is paying more council tax because their town council is charging a higher precept level than someone, say, perhaps, who's living in a rural community, who's paying less precept because their town and community council don't want to do anything as such, and they charge just the basic minimums to pay the clerk. So, do you think they are value for money across the piece?

And on what Lesley was saying about collaboration, about the fairness, then, you could have a town council in Brecon that is doing some good work, trying to improve the area, and then you've got other areas where nothing's happening at all because the precepts are so low and they just don't want to do anything. So, say, in an area like Powys, do you think there should be more drive from Government to drive collaboration, just in fairness for the taxpayer in one respect, and actually making sure you're getting value for money as well? Because if you live in one part of the county you may have a very active town and community council; live in another part of the county, you might have nothing at all.

I think that's the challenge for community councils, isn't it? Because, as I said, the community councils and the community councillors on those bodies should want to drive that. They want to represent their communities. And I think, if we can show how that can be done, I think that's really important that we do that, because collaboration, as we've said here, we know that it works at all levels, don't we? When it's done well, it's really excellent. I think that's what people in communities would want to see. There'll be examples where perhaps—. Because, obviously, both community councils, or more than one community council, they all have to be on the same page, and that's a challenge, isn't it? 

But how can Welsh Government help with that?

Well, I think, again, it's very—. There's a role—. While some others feel like Welsh Government should drive these things, I also think there are other partners who need to feel quite confident in doing that as well. You know, we've got—

But you set the framework, don't you? 

We do set the framework and that's one of the things. Within that framework there is an ability to do that, but we need to encourage more, I think, the work that community councils do and local authorities do to try to develop that relationship.

But there has to be a bit of carrot, doesn't there? There has to be carrot to get people to collaborate. It's lovely saying, ‘Let's collaborate’, but, if it isn't in their best interests, if there's no carrot to make people do that, they're not going to do it, and in the end you have to look at the stick, don't you? 

Yes, and I think, as I've said in my evidence paper, there's a long history of how we've tried to support the sector and how we're looking to support the sector here. There are opportunities and, as I say, we've heard about good practice. I can help shout about that. We've got this memorandum of understanding with local government and the community councils. But, yes, absolutely, there's a time when we have to look at this and that's what I'll be doing in the round when I get your report as well.

Okay. Lee Waters. 

Thank you. We've had quite a bit of evidence on the audit situation. As we know, the figures are quite embarrassing, with a number of town and community councils who have not passed audit. But, as we've dug into it, the situation is more nuanced. And part of the problem, we've heard in evidence, is that a one-size-fits-all approach is applied, which even the auditor general in his evidence agreed was not appropriate, but he's obliged to follow it because of the legal framework he works to. And he agreed in evidence that he'd be willing to co-produce with local government and the Welsh Government a different, more appropriate set of thresholds. I wonder if you have any initial reflections on that idea.

I'm very open-minded to that idea. I'm very keen to hear more about it, but very open-minded to that suggestion.

And what legal changes would be necessary to facilitate that, assuming a consensus could be reached?

Kevin. 

I saw the auditor general's evidence. I've had a sneaky look at what they do in England. So, in essence, the difference between what happens in Wales and England, particularly for the smaller councils, is the external audit process. So, they still have to produce their annual governance statement, they still have to produce their accounts and publish those, but they self-certify an annual governance and accountability return, which accounts for their accounts, variation where there is a difference between what they should have reported and then an explanation of that variation—so, a reconciliation and explanation of variation—and that's published for their community to assess whether they've been good stewards of that money. In Wales, for the same size council, that's externally audited, and you heard quite a bit of evidence about how much to-ing and fro-ing there is to manage that.  

So, the difference if we were to mimic that—and I think there's something I want to say about that after—if we were to mimic that, the difference would be removing the auditor general's role in that process for smaller councils, be that under £25,000, which would be around £5 million of precept you'd have a lighter sight on; if it goes up to £50,000, that would be up to £10 million of the precept you'd have a lighter sight on. 

Just a final reflection on England, we're going to have conversations with our English, UK, counterparts soon, I think, because we want to get their reflections on how that process has gone. The process has changed, but has it improved things? Are they confident in those parish council accounts and so on? But, on the face of it, that would be the main change: the removal of the external audit for smaller councils.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that we mimic anyone; are you suggesting that we—

No, no, but it helps to give you a parallel, because I know that was where the question come from.

Sure. The suggestion is that we look at co-producing something appropriate to Wales. The system in England of a banding approach does seem superficially quite attractive, though. I don't know if Lisa has anything to say on this more generally. 

I think, as the Cabinet Secretary says, we're open-minded to looking at the approach. In answer to your question about legislative change, I think it would depend on what the co-produced model was. Some things we might be able to do in secondary legislation, others might need primary legislation to amend them. Potentially, the Act that sets out the role of the auditor general, for example, might need to be amended, which would be primary legislation. But I think we're open to looking at how it could be made better, more proportionate, and also working with the sector to help compliance with any new regime as well without losing any accountability or transparency to the public in terms of how the precept or the income is being spent in those local areas. 

Okay, thank you, and then one other suggestion was made to us was around the software that's being used, because there's a huge variety. And in a sense, variety doesn't matter; we can get too hung up on a uniform system. If you're an accountant, you can perfectly well get away with using Excel; you don't need anything more complicated than that. But there was one suggestion about creating a national online audit system that could take local authorities through the steps. And we already have, or we've heard in evidence, a well-regarded toolkit from One Voice Wales about how it should be done. So, I'm just wondering if there's any thought of or any merit in taking that a step further and possibly asking the Centre for Digital Public Services to do some kind of exercise on is there a case for a streamlined single audit portal.

It's something we can, absolutely, look at, yes. I think having some more information in that sense would be really helpful. Just to say, in terms of the auditor general and his team as well, how they work with community councils, when I was at the One Voice Wales conference, he was very public about saying, 'Please come and speak to me if there are issues'. His team were available and accessible that day for informal conversations with community councillors as well. So, just to say, I think that was a really good way to be accessible and available for people if they had any issues there. But, absolutely, we will certainly take account of that suggestion—that sounds good.

Thank you.

Okay. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much, Chair. Chair, first coming to the audit, can I ask a question about that? Chair? Can I ask a question—?

Yes, certainly. Sorry, Altaf. Absolutely. [Laughter.]

What I have seen in community councils is that we do get the precept and much of the money goes into local charities, which may be few, but those charities that are in the local area. So, do we audit that, and how much money does go? Because they do repeatedly go around all these wards and community councils and town councils.

Is that part of the—?

That's part of the audit process, yes.

Yes, it would be part of the audit process, yes.

Yes. It's a part of the internal and then external audit process.

And we could see those charities that are run—. There are charities that are run by the community councillors as well, and whether there is any problem in that, or—?

I think there should be a process around, if a town or community council wants to make a donation to a local charity, then that would need to be proposed at the meeting, conflicts of interest would need to be declared, so that the decision could be made appropriately. And then that decision should be shown in the accounts, which would be audited by the auditor general or picked up in—. Or, if the council is publishing an annual report, it should be picked up in there as well.

Thank you very much. I'm now coming to my question. It is on standards and behaviour, and it's regarding the community council complaints process. And my question is: concerning the community council complaints process, do you believe arrangements are sufficiently supporting councillors and clerks currently?

Thank you, Altaf—an important question. Just to say, poor behaviour is clearly unacceptable, at whatever level. The evidence from the democratic health report, and the evidence I know that the committee has been provided with so far, confirms that there is an existing process, but the extent to which it's working as intended is really, I think, up for answer, isn't it? My initial response is that adding another intermediate layer isn't the answer, but getting the current local resolution procedure that exists working in the intended way is likely to have a better effect, really. It relies on a number of things, including members understanding the arrangements in place and the role they have in that process. And I note that the democratic health group report has suggested a review of that process to identify where it is and isn't working, and has recommended some practical ways to improve that. So, I'm very pleased that they've seen that and identified that as an issue.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Does the town and community councils sector require an arbitration service specifically dealing with less serious code of conduct complaints? And what would your view be regarding if it would deliver better outcomes than the current local resolution process or via the ombudsman's complaints process?

Thank you for that. I understand the motivation behind that question. It's important to remember that when we're dealing with what we refer to as trivial or low-level complaints, we're really dealing with things that, in many cases, mean a great deal to those people involved, and that's in terms of both the complainant and the complained against. I think the local resolution procedures are designed to do that: they handle low-level complaints and disputes internally, without need for external intervention.

Just to illustrate this slightly, the local resolution process is this: if there's a minor complaint, such as between members or between members and officers, before formal procedures are initiated, the clerk should attempt to resolve the issue informally by liaising with the individuals involved. If informal resolution is not successful, the complaint is escalated to a formal process. This involves the establishment of a committee or a panel, such as a complaints panel, to handle a complaint. And if appropriate, the chair or vice-chair of the council may be involved in the resolution process, to facilitate an amicable agreement between the parties involved. But there's nothing to stop a council seeking external peer support from another community council, or paid for by One Voice Wales.

That said, there are obviously still issues. On the question of whether another step is needed in the process, I'm not sure. But I do understand how difficult this is. Often, in those community councils, because it's smaller, those relationships can be more difficult, and sometimes some of these situations are actually very personal. So, I do understand that as an issue.

We did an independent review of the ethical framework in 2021, which was done by Richard Penn, and the headline was that the ethical framework was fit for purpose, but there was work to be done to make sure it was being implemented properly on the ground. So, I think that accords with what the committee have been hearing in the evidence.

I think you also heard from the chair—this is quite complicated—of the chairs of standards committees network, and I think there's a significant role for standards committees in this space, because new responsibilities and duties were placed on them in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 to proactively promote good standards of conduct, which would include amongst town and community councils. Again, there's best practice, where some chairs and members of standards committees do go out to the town and community councils in their area and talk about the code of conduct, talk about good practice, what it means to comply with the code, as a sort of upstream prevention of the escalation of complaints between members or complaints between members and the clerk.

I think there's definitely something in that space that that standards committee network can take forward. Also, they now have a duty to produce an annual report, so as part of that report, they should be setting out how they are proactively supporting good standards of conduct. Those are published, and so should be available for other standards committees to look at, to see what the good practice is in that area.

James, I know you are interested in these matters. Does that satisfy the concerns you might have had, or do you want to follow up?

Nothing the Government says satisfies my concerns wholly, John, but there we are. One other question that I do have is around the different standards expected at different levels of Government, and what people accept as a basic standard. You take our standards here; when I was a town and community councillor, things I heard being said to female members of the community councils by a chair, if I uttered any of those words in that Chamber in there, or in any setting in this Senedd, I'd probably be barred from public office, or certainly banned for six months from stepping foot back in this building or taking part in proceedings. That standard at community council level tends to get said as, 'Oh, you need to grow a thicker skin.'

I do find there is a different standard set between what we're expected to do and what's expected then, perhaps, at the local level. Do you not accept, Cabinet Secretary, that the standards that we're held to should be expected right the way through the political spectrum, whether that's at local government or town and community council level? Because there shouldn't be this one standard for us and one standard for somebody else. We should all be conforming to the Nolan principles in public office and public life. We all know the standard we expect of other people in terms of dignity and respect. But what we've heard from evidence, and what I've heard, is that we're held to much higher standards than what town and community councillors are, even though they're elected bodies in their own right as well.

Do you think there is some work that really does need to be done to say that everybody should be held to the same standards? As I said, here, I'd be banned for six months. In local government, I'd be told to grow a thicker skin. There is a differential there, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that, because I don't think we should have these double standards across the political spectrum in Wales.

I agree. It's not about growing a thicker skin, is it? We're trying to ensure that people come into politics at town and community council level, and any other tier of government, and we want those people to be treated with respect and dignity. I think that, if we're going out, when you're front facing, at whatever level, you're dealing with the public, and we need to make sure we're treating the public with respect as well, and dignity. So, I think that being proactive around standards is really important, and I think having that expectation that those standards should be high from our town and community councillors, as at every level, is really important, because we should expect that. 

This is very difficult territory. The monitoring officer who attended the committee with the WLGA was explaining the case law around the 'thicker skin' judgement, which goes back to 2012. One of the Cabinet Secretary’s predecessors wrote to the committee in 2023 to explain the Calver judgment and the thicker skin. It's a really difficult challenge, and I think the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales talked about it as well when she attended committee. But the headline is, as the Cabinet Secretary said, it's not an excuse to say misogynistic comments to another member of the council or to bully or harass another member of the council. It's about allowing robust political debate. There's an interconnection, I think, here with the quality of the chairing of the meeting and what chairs will allow in council meetings, and training for chairs to pick up members on inappropriate comments like that. Some of those things can be nipped in the bud by setting standards locally in the meetings.

Can I challenge you on that? I'll press the point about independent arbitration. We say these things could be picked up earlier. In the community council that I was referencing, which happened to be in my old council ward, I can remember the chair was actually friendly with the person who was making the comments, was also friendly with the vice-chairman, so no-one would say anything. I was the only person who spoke out at that meeting, and then I got vilified for it. This is where, perhaps, an independent arbitration service does need to happen. I respect what Lesley said—some community and town councils don't work like that—but, unfortunately, in some of the rural ones, they are all friends of each other, comments are said about things, about people, and nothing is done about it because, 'Oh, I can't do that, because I'm friendly with so and so, and I can't say anything, because I do this or he cuts my grass or she cuts me grass.' It all works round like that, and that probably was Altaf’s point. An independent arbitration service would really help in that regard. Someone could go there and say, 'Look, I'm having these things said about me. It's continuing. I've been told by the office'—the name escapes me now—'to grow a thicker skin, by the public service ombudsman. Nothing's getting done. They're not going to help me because they're all friends. Where do I turn?'

That is an unfortunate scenario that we do recognise.   

But it happens more frequently than we give credit for. From the informal session that we had with clerks, and from other sessions we’ve had, we've heard that it goes on quite a fair bit, actually. 

I think the other aspect of it is, again, about getting more people into town and community councils, isn’t it? Because if it just becomes a friend who knows somebody else, that does become—. But we do have a process at the moment; I think there are ways that we need to make that work perhaps a bit better. 

I'll leave it there or we'll run out of time. 

Okay, James, we’ll move on. You mentioned training in response to some of these issues, and we’ll move on now to Siân Gwenllian.  

Diolch, Siân. I know how passionately you feel about this, and the work that you do on this, in terms of diversity at all levels. Absolutely, we need to make sure that dignity and respect is there across all levels of our tiers of government. I think James articulated how he was able to challenge misogyny within the community council, but we’ve heard that that doesn’t always happen. Absolutely, we need to be very mindful of that.

Following the 2018 independent review, we tested the option for mandatory training, and we did have some pushback from the sector. There were also some practical concerns around the implementation and enforcement at that stage. As you’ll know, this led to provision for training plans in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021. The statutory guidance requires them to consider whether code of conduct training is needed.

For two years, we have provided bursaries to incentivise take-up of the code of conduct training, on top of the focused training on governance that has run much longer. However, funding for a council to undertake essential training should generally come from within that council. My view is that a community council, as a democratic body, is responsible for preparing its members to do their job. But as the Cabinet Secretary, I am happy to have a role in providing a framework for that, or consistency—not to use Welsh Government funding, but to meet the code of conduct requirements. But I think there are—. You've seen the figures, I think, of the bursaries that we've provided and the take-up. I think everybody has seen that, which is in the evidence paper. So, we can see, for example, in 2023-24, we've offered a £62,000 grant offer, and we've had £25,392 claimed. So, just to say, that is on offer, and we'd like people to take that up.

I completely take your point about the code of conduct training. We do offer that within the community council sector. I think when we say 'mandatory training', then we have to accept what will that mean if people don't take up that training. So, I think there's some thought to be put in there, isn't there?

Yes, absolutely, Cabinet Secretary, and there's a vehicle to require all councils to have due regard to mandatory training through the statutory guidance for the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021, so we could make that more specific without requiring new legislation. But as the Cabinet Secretary has said, part of the resistance previously was part-time clerks feeling quite vulnerable that they would be trying to twist the arm of chairs and vice-chairs and members to do training, and they just won't, so that was one of the reasons we went to a training plan plus a bursary offer, previously. So, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, I think we'd look at that enforcement side of things. But mandatory training of a sort is quite doable.

There would be. We'd have to consult on the statutory guidance, but, yes, there's a vehicle.

Thank you, Siân. Yes, absolutely, as I have said, the funding is there for training. We have heard, and I've said, that take-up is obviously below the available funds, and that is a real shame, I believe, and I think the community councils do need to meet us half way on this offer. It's difficult to measure impact. We have evidence of what's actively funded by the Welsh Government, but not all training carried out by councillors. There are positive signs that it's encouraging take-up of code of conduct training. Sorry, I should have said that one: 422 councillors took the training last year, and 206 as of the last count this year, so there's still more to be done within that. That's still a small number, isn't it, of community councillors who have taken up the code of conduct training. But there is still a lot to do in terms of encouraging councillors to take up this training that's offered.

Well, that's certainly something that we can look at. I'm sure we'll be getting the committee's report on this and recommendations. But we have to be clear, I think, that if we are doing mandatory training, you know, we've got money available now that people aren't taking up, and if we're saying that there's mandatory training, we still need to understand what is at the end of that if they don't do the mandatory training. I think that's what we need to be clear about. 

Yes, thank you, Siân. Around the certificate in local council administration bursary scheme for the clerks, the bursary pays for the full cost of training, including registration, webinars and mentoring sessions. That costs £930 per person, just to give a clear—. In the past three years, we've uplifted the bursary available specifically to enable as many clerks to attain that CiLCA qualification as possible, with an eye to the general power of competence criteria for eligible community councils. We could have trained around 75 new clerks per year. We've also provided an additional £2,000 per year for general training for clerks. I've heard that the qualification is excellent, and I know that officials work closely with the Society of Local Council Clerks to promote the scheme actively.

It's obviously very disappointing that not everybody's taking that up. Again, that offer is there. Councils have given us feedback that they feel that they've recruited competent clerks who don't require a formal clerking qualification. That's the feedback that we often get. For instance, some people have said that their clerks are current or former accountants or solicitors. But training is one aspect. Community councils also need to recruit those capable clerks, and I understand that One Voice Wales and the SLCC have developed a model job description, along with appropriate remuneration. But I don't know if there's anything, Lisa, that you or Kevin would like to add on the clerkship. No.

Altaf.

I just wanted to ask about—. There should be requirements for becoming a councillor, maybe in the community or in the county, and those requirements should be agreed by all the political parties. Whether that needs legislation, I have no clue.

Yes. Diolch, Altaf. I've heard the evidence that you had from One Voice Wales, questioning whether an annual refresh cycle for a general power of competence is too regular, just around the requirement of the annual resolution of eligibility. But I don't think it's a workload issue to resolve annually, but I do think that, when you're talking about the competence of—. Were you talking generally about the general competence of community councillors?

I was talking about—

On Siân's point about the general competence.

Yes.

Not the general competence of community councils. 

Yes. Can I come to my question?

Yes.

Thank you very much. It has been claimed that capacity for delivering training and development is patchy, historically. One Voice Wales highlighted how many town and community councils are already finding that providing services digitally is challenging. Noting these things, could you kindly provide us with an outline of practical provisions, like financial support, that the Welsh Government gives?

Thank you, Altaf. Absolutely, there's still a lot to do in increasing the digital readiness of the sector, absolutely. Following the initial discovery project, led by the local government chief digital officer, we worked with the sector to develop a digital health action plan, which my predecessor published in May 2023. The plan reflects the areas of highest impact. Actions in that plan include facilitating joint working, including whether principal councils are to secure things like IT support and access to cloud software. Last year and this year, we provided funding again to One Voice Wales of £150,000 to deliver against the plan, and I’m more than happy to share the link for that with committee, if that helps you in terms of the work that’s going on there.

The project board has also included officials from the WLGA and Welsh Government, such as Digital Communities Wales and our own chief digital officer’s office. But I’m looking forward to seeing the outputs from One Voice Wales and the work that they’ve done and developed with partners as their website goes live. That will be for all community councils as well.

Thank you.

Okay, Altaf?

Yes, thanks a lot.

James.

Yes, a final question from me, Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear. I want to talk about the general power of competence, which was a provision in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 that requires community councils to pass a resolution annually about the general power of competence. Do you think it's proportionate? And is there merit in the call for this to be changed to every five years and not for it to be done annually, because it can be a bit cumbersome for community councils? Do you think that that is something that needs to be looked at, when we have a look back at legislation? One thing I've always been keen on is having a look back when Acts have been implemented, so do you actually think that this is something that perhaps we should look to change?

I don't think there’s a large body of evidence around that yet, James. I know it’s been three years since the change came into effect. But I’m very happy to keep that under review. I think, at this stage, it’s just meeting the eligibility criteria at all really, but I’m very happy to keep that under review and to report back to the committee as well.

So, under the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act, there are a lot of elements in there that do go to town and community councils. Do Welsh Government have a period of review on that, where they can have a look back over that legislation to see how it's working? One thing I don't think we do enough of is, as I said earlier, look back over legislation that we've passed to actually see how it is working and how it could be improved. What we tend to do is put it in place, leave it and move on to the next piece of work. But I do think there is great merit in, obviously, having a look back. I was just interested to see what you think about that.

Yes, like I said, I'm very happy to look back at that. I don't know if there's a general—

Yes, shall I come in?

Yes.

So, it was a substantial piece of legislation, the 2021 Act.

It was.

So, it's still only three years since it received Royal Assent and some of the things in it are quite significant and will need some time to be implemented and to bed in. And we're still actually trying to implement some of the things that were in it as well. But we do have a rolling programme of reviews. So, we've currently started to look at things like the job sharing, for example, in principal councils, because the Cabinet Secretary has been consulting on extending those provisions. We started to look at the broadcasting at principal council level to see whether that should be rolled out to other meetings. So, there is a programme to do that, but there is striking a balance in giving things enough time to bed in so that there's sufficient evidence to consider whether or not they need to be amended.

Okay.

Okay, James.

It's on the list. [Laughter.]

There you go, it's on the list.

I'll hold you to that.

That's a classic civil service answer. [Laughter.]

Thank you. I'll take that.

You can take it any way you like. [Laughter.]

Just to remind the committee—I'm sure you're well aware—that if a council has resolved itself as eligible once and started to use that power, even if it loses that eligibility, it can carry on. So, that's just worth remembering, that if it does change in-year or part way through the term, that's not an issue.

Community councils still have access to the section 137 well-being power. So, there is funding available there and they can use—. Obviously, there's a spending limit, which is £10.61 [Correction: £10.81] per elector, I think—I'll have to double-check that—but there is also—. Community councils can use specific powers, so the general power of competence is a good power but it's not the only game in town.

No. Okay. Well, thank you all very much. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, thank you, Lisa, thank you, Kevin, for coming in to give evidence to committee today. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Diolch.

Okay, the next item is—[Interruption.] Nadolig llawen.

Papers to note is our next item, then. Paper 1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government in relation to community assets; paper 2 is correspondence from Cwmpas with additional information following the meeting of 14 November; paper 3, correspondence from Platfform in relation to the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year; paper 4, a letter from the WLGA with additional information on this inquiry. Are Members content to note those papers? I see that you are.

Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is the committee content to do so? You are. We will then move to private session.