National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee. We've reached item 3 on our agenda today—introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. No apologies have been received. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? There are not. Just to say that the public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available.

Item 4, then, is in terms of this committee's inquiry into housing support for vulnerable people. We have an evidence session now with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant here today, in front of the committee, the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. And also Sara James, head of housing support policy and delivery, and Sarah Rhodes, deputy director for housing policy. Thank you very much, all of you, for coming in to give evidence today.

Perhaps I might begin, Cabinet Secretary, with some initial questions on the strategic approach. Firstly, what data does the Welsh Government have on support need across Wales, and does that data enable you to have a sense of the extent of unmet need?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. The Welsh Government doesn't hold data on support needs; it's for local authorities, obviously, to plan and commission housing-related support services to meet that local need. We do, though, require them to develop a four-year housing support programme strategy, and that's informed by their own comprehensive needs assessment, which outlines the strategic direction for housing support needs. We do also, to underpin that, require local authorities to have a housing support grant delivery plan in place to submit their annual spends, and that sets out, obviously, how they intend to spend their allocation to deliver their priorities within that.

The most recent HSG progress reports highlighted an increased demand for HSG services, and I'm sure that that's something that the committee has heard—that's across the board—and an increase in people presenting with challenging and complex needs. But just to say that the budget uplift of £21 million is intended to really assist commissioners within that support for the sector to achieve the real living wage.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Would you say, then, that, in terms of need over the longer term, Welsh Government is in a position to assess what level that's likely to be at and is then able to shape policy accordingly?

Obviously, we've got our spend plans and that spend plan data and the new outcomes data, and they tell us how the HSG budget is being used and the types of support needs that are being supported, so we do have some clear information on that. Sarah, did you want to—?

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. I think, certainly from the spend plan data and what we see in local authorities' rapid rehousing plans, and the discussions we have with local authorities, we certainly see an increase in complexity of need in terms of people presenting to local authorities, and I think that's quite consistent across local authorities; we hear that frequently from them. And so, in their needs assessments and the services that they're commissioning, they are looking at how they can best address that increase in complexity of need that they're seeing and the services that they provide. So, certainly, it's something that we're looking at and we obviously support, we provide funding for housing first projects, which are for that really complex end and that high need, but certainly, the increase, as the Cabinet Secretary said, in the housing support grant has been very much aimed at trying to help—. One aspect is about trying to help local authorities to meet that increased demand in that complexity of need.

How would you characterise that, though, in terms of short term and long term? We've got the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, for example, which requires Welsh Government and local authorities and others to look to the longer term as well as being more preventative and joined up and so on. Are we on a long-term footing here with that knowledge of likely future need and policy shaped around it?

I was going to say, I think it is an important point around how we have that prevention side of things and how we’re changing to push into preventative services, which we know are so important. Obviously, we have policy levers to do that as well. This grant is our main preventative grant to deal with homelessness. I don’t know, Sarah, did you want to add anything in particular on that?

Yes. We do require local authorities, as the Cabinet Secretary has mentioned, to do that long-term planning with their housing support strategies, based on their needs assessment. I think there’s always going to need to be a degree of flexibility within that, because, obviously, needs assessments are done within a time period and you do get a change in need. But certainly, within the HSG guidance, there’s considerable flexibility for local authorities to adjust their spend plans, both in-year and on an annual basis, to respond if that need is changing. But certainly, they do that long-term planning piece, based on a considerable needs assessment that looks at the different spectrum of need within their area. Obviously, as well, they’ve got commissioning cycles. So, there’s an element of they might commission over a three-year period, but there is flexibility within the HSG guidance to allow them to respond, and in the way that we monitor the grant as well to allow them to adjust their spend plans in-year if they need to, to be able to respond to change in demand.

Lee.

Can I just follow up on that in relation to the previous answer on data? The outcome of the engagement work that the committee’s been doing, particularly in Swansea, is showing time and again the issue of data sharing being a real barrier to planning and for multidisciplinary working—both barriers of health themselves being so large and not having the digital systems themselves to be able to digitally share, plus a concern, right or perceived, about data protection issues, meaning that the front-line services are getting people that they’re not prepared to deal with and they don’t have an advance warning of the nature of the conditions that they have, which is causing real harm. So, in terms of data sharing and breaking down barriers for data sharing, how does that feature in your long-term planning work?

I was just going to say, there are some really good examples, and I think the point that you raised about Swansea in particular—that’s something that we should take back as well to hear from them. But I’ve seen some really good examples of where data sharing has worked, particularly in Cardiff, for example, where there’s a real multidisciplinary team, and I mean in the genuine sense. They’ve done some incredible work there, and we’ve highlighted it within the submission, but we could give you some more detail on that particularly. But, Sarah, did you want to say something particularly on that?

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. I think the example the Cab Sec’s given does show that it can work, and often it’s about a misunderstanding rather than actually an inability to share the information. I think where the teams are established and work jointly, like in the Cardiff model, that information is able to be shared because of the way it’s structured. So, we’re really keen to disseminate and roll out some of that really good practice that we see, but do recognise the issue that you raise and that, in some areas, that has consistently been a barrier. I don’t know if you want to say anything more from a data perspective, Sara.

Yes. I think it would be helpful to know a bit more about what specifically are the barriers. Is it different public services not being able to share data with each other? Because we have been told of examples, certainly from housing support teams who lead on commissioning of housing support grant services, where they do engage, certainly within the local authority, with their social services colleagues in order to consider cases for individuals where there are more intensive needs required. But is this question more about how a local authority can then access data with a health board?

Well, the specific example we've had feedback on is the service providers not knowing the nature of the issues that clients are dealing with when they turn up, because that information sharing isn't happening.

Okay, with the providers rather than with the local authorities.

Well, I think there are multiple examples. The fact you're not aware of them suggests there is a systemic problem as well. You mentioned, Sarah, there is good practice, so what are you doing to take an adopt-or-justify approach towards the local authorities to follow that good practice?

Yes, we've done good practice-sharing webinars to demonstrate to local authorities and health boards, because I think it's really important to say how the Cardiff model is jointly funded—and it's funded from health authorities' own budgets and from local authorities—and to share the outcomes as well of the project, and how well that is working in terms of the positive outcomes for individuals, to try and encourage commissioning of those sorts of services in other areas. And we are seeing that. There are examples in Cwm Taf again, and we do appreciate that there will need to be different models in different areas to flex to the situation and the local context. It won't necessarily need to be exactly the same in all areas, but certainly we've been working with health, we've got a health inclusion task and finish group that we work in, we've got all the leads within all the health boards in Wales, so we're very much trying to share this, but to do it in a joint way between health and housing, demonstrating that these are shared outcomes and that we need to be working together to try and deliver on them.

Surely just telling people other people are doing it well—. Evidence shows pretty clearly that that's not going to work.

I think it's also about making sure that the right people are in the room when we're discussing these things, because it was really interesting with the Cardiff and Vale example—. It is actually quite amazing what they are doing together, and often that has actually stemmed from one person perhaps trying to really break down some barriers within that. I know that officials have gone to other parts of the UK to talk about it, but sometimes we don't know about that within Wales. We need to do a lot better at sharing that information with the right people in the room, because sometimes I'm not sure everybody's in the room to be challenging on that. Sometimes, if you're talking to the same level of people, you might not want to show that you don't know everything, perhaps. So, I think there is a real challenge, and I'm very happy to follow up on what more we can do to shout about it, because it's crucial that it's not just down to one person.

My challenge is: is shouting going to be enough? Is sharing going to be enough? Shouldn't there be some kind of conditionality to the funding, or some guidance to insist that when good practice is adopted, it has to be picked up by others?

I think it's worth adding that the housing support grant guidance and the guidance for local authorities’ housing support programme strategies—so, these are four-year strategies—and their rapid rehousing transition plan guidance, all within them—they all promote and emphasise the importance of partnership working, collaborative working, as well as understanding local needs and responding to those local needs. So, it is already built in there in terms of the existing guidance. It might be, in practice, that there are areas where that isn't working for different reasons, but that is an ethos that underpins all of that work, and that is what we've—

But there are no teeth to it, are there? It's imploring and encouraging.

I think the other thing I would add, for example, is that some of that work as well has been assisted by some specific funding outside of the HSG that the Welsh Government has provided. So, through health complex needs funding, which has helped to demonstrate some of the benefits of some of this work, the Cardiff and Vale health inclusion service, which is the Cardiff model, I think benefited from some of that in the early days. So, again, it's trying to put some funding out to demonstrate proof of concept, if you like, in terms of, 'Look, this is the benefit you can get', to encourage, again, local authorities, health boards, to pick that up as well, out of their own budgets as well. That has had some success in terms of, as we've talked about, some of the models that we're seeing developing across Wales. So, we are really keen to promote this, but at the heart of the HSG, commissioning is based on local authorities' needs assessments and local authorities' assessments of how best to deliver and address those needs within their local area. So, we can encourage, we can promote good practice models and projects across Wales, but we don't prescribe within the HSG what specifically, what models of delivery, they have to fund.

Okay. Thanks, Chair.

Okay, Lee. Peter.

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious that there are a lot of questions we need to ask, but I think this is an absolutely fundamental line of questioning, because it's one of the key unlockers to improve many things. Do we really understand what the barriers are that stop organisations, key organisations, from sharing data easily? It's something I've been up against for 30 years. I had these same conversations 30 years ago, trying to lever information from one organisation to another, to invoke change, and we never seem to have got there. So, we've got good practice. We've got good practice for—. I think Lee's right that there needs to be something stronger to make that happen; you know, protocols put in place that require the sharing of data when it's in the interests of a certain group of people who are getting disadvantaged through that not being in place. So, do we know what the real issue is stopping that?

I think the frustration is that, where it does work—. It does happen in some areas, and that is the frustration, Peter. It can work. Like I say, I feel like I'm talking about this Cardiff and Vale model a lot, but to see the data that they're sharing and the picture now that they have, because of that data sharing, is really good, and it's actually really important, and the fact that it's being talked about in other parts of the UK. I think there must be more we can do within that. I don't understand why everybody else isn't following that, but, as I say, often, it's come down to one or two people within an organisation trying to break that down. But, within our plan, we do have things where we make sure that people work together. It's very difficult to tell people, obviously, 'You've got to work together', because that doesn't always create the best environment for things to happen. But it must be in everybody's interests to work together. This isn't just a housing issue, it's a public sector issue, isn't it?

Thanks, Cab Sec. Just to add to what you were saying, it is an issue, as the Cabinet Secretary says, that is not particular to housing; it's an issue that you see across public services, in terms of that. And I think, often, it is about people's maybe misunderstanding, sometimes nervousness, about potentially sharing personal information, and not understanding exactly how to operate within the protocols that exist around data sharing. Because there are obviously stringent protocols, as there should be, around sharing personal data, and I think, sometimes, where people could share information, they feel they can't.

But for those of us looking in, we feel, I feel that that should be an easy problem to get over. I know it's hard, but it's just helping people to understand what those problems are, and they shouldn't be fearful of sharing data, or whatever. Anyway, you've got the point, I'm sure.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, if there's anything else, as you said earlier, Cabinet Secretary, you could share with us in terms of what is happening in parts of Wales—Cardiff and Vale, or anywhere else that is a good model—that would be very useful.

Most definitely. I know we've put something very briefly in the written submission, but there's a lot more behind that, and I think, for the committee, it would be really good to see that for yourselves as well.

Okay. The final question from me, again, in terms of how we overcome some of the short-term nature of policy and service delivery. We've heard many calls coming forward in this inquiry for multi-year indicative figures for the housing support grant. So, again, providers would be in a better position to know what sort of funding they're likely to have, to enable them to deliver services. Is that something that's on your agenda, Cabinet Secretary?

Diolch, Chair. And, absolutely, I hear that very loud and clear, to be honest. I've heard it from local authorities and providers as well, but, obviously, we have to work within the Welsh Government's envelope, which we get from UK Government. But I would like to assure the committee that when we do have that certainty and when we are able to do things like that, we do pass that on to local authorities and others. So, for example, we had a three-year HSG indicative allowance provided to local authorities between 2021-22 and 2024-25. So, when we were able to do that, we did it. I'd obviously like to give as much indication in future as possible, and so, when I am able to do so, I will do that.

Why was it possible to provide those indicative figures during that period of time, but it isn't possible now? Or will not be possible—

Because it was aligned with the Welsh Government's wider budget process. So, in 2021-22, Welsh Government published a draft budget that had one year plus two years indicative. That hasn't—. For 2025-26, it's been a one-year budget, and that's because it aligns with the UK Government's budget settlement and whether it's a multi-year settlement.

So, we hope that we'll be able to get to that in future.

Yes. Okay. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Peter.

Thank you, Chair. Cabinet Secretary, most people would really welcome the amount of capital that was put in the budget to help with house building, but there wasn't the same sort of level of increase in revenue to address things like the prevention agenda. I just wondered why homelessness, from a revenue perspective, didn't really get the increase it needed in this last budget.

Okay. Diolch, Peter. I think, firstly, just to say that we have prioritised the housing support grant as our main revenue homelessness prevention grant. So, we've prioritised that substantial £21 million uplift. I was able to do that at the draft budget time. So, it's important not to forget that this is a significant revenue increase in homelessness prevention funding, and I did have to work hard within that to stretch that in terms of the main expenditure group. There are a small number of projects that sit outside the HSG, as you'll know, and I am pleased to update the committee that, having asked officials to look across my budgets and consider other income funding streams, I've confirmed a 3 per cent uplift to the additional homelessness prevention projects, which do such important work in our communities.

Yes. Thank you. We've spoken quite a lot about prevention; it is absolutely fundamental for this whole agenda. However, we are seeing local authorities having to disinvest from prevention, because they're dealing with the current crisis, the challenges they've got now. So, how can you address that? Has the Government got a clear picture of the—? Because it's great that we can put more money in and things like that, but, clearly, there's a mismatch between what your local authorities are needing and are having to manage and what the Government believes they need and are managing. Where's the disconnect here?

It's good to hear from a former leader with experience in these things. Absolutely, it's really important that we do have that eye on what local authorities are doing. We know that they've been under incredible pressure over a number of years now, and I do, as I say, recognise—as I said in the first answer—that the shift to prevention services is really, really important; that's where we want to be. We've obviously outlined that in our action plan, and the focus of our policy and, as you'll know, our legislative reform is aimed at that. But, as I said, I do recognise that the pressures at the crisis end of services is going to take time.

Specifically in respect of the HSG, the highest percentage of planned spend in 2024-25 is on floating support services, so, those are services that help people to sustain their own tenancies, which is really important, and you'll have seen that from the document that we provided. I do recognise that authorities have needed to support more people in temporary accommodation since the pandemic. I know that's a real pressure and a costly pressure, both financially and on the individuals who are in temporary accommodation. Local authorities have obviously had to adjust their HSG resources accordingly. Just to say on that, we haven't got any evidence that this has been to the detriment of wider preventative services within the HSG as well.

Okay. Right. So, has it come onto your radar that some authorities aren't doing what you might want in that preventative way? And if so, how are you reaching into them to try and support them through that?

Sara, could you—?

Yes, sure. They provide annual spend plans, and the relative share—. So, the Cabinet Secretary mentioned floating support services, and many of those services are for people to help them sustain their existing tenancies to prevent them from experiencing homelessness. So, in terms of the overall picture, there isn't that clear evidence that there's a significant drop year on year in the relative share of spend on those kinds of early preventative services, but, you know, they have told us across the board that the services are generally under pressure, and we've talked about the complexity of need. And so, I guess, you know, inevitably, they will need to—. It's in the evidence paper that they still need to fund support in temporary accommodation.

Yes. It's going to be difficult to ascertain what the evidence is that prevention isn't being invested in, isn't it, when they're dealing with a crisis? I can see that's a challenge.

Yes.

Sarah.

Just to add to what Sara was saying, you know, outside of the HSG as well, you will be aware that we've provided additional funding to local authorities, both for temporary accommodation—so, £15 million—and £5 million for homelessness prevention, discretionary activity for local authorities to give them some flexibility and try and bolster some of that preventative work outside of the HSG. So, that funding this financial year has been moved over into the RSG because, obviously, that's the statutory responsibility of the local authority. So, it's moved over, but at the same amount, so that £20 million has gone in to support local authorities in that regard.

Great. Thank you.

Chair—

Yes, Laura.

On this—. Sorry to interrupt. In terms of temporary accommodation, I mean, a lot of it is very unsuitable. I used to sit on the children and young people's committee with you, Cabinet Secretary, and we heard that a lot of it was unsuitable, particularly for cared-for children, children who are 16 being in unsuitable accommodation and things like that, families all squished together. I mean, it's not sustainable. We need to do something more, but there's no housing stock. So, what is being done? What sorts of things are we hearing that they are looking at? You're putting that money in, which is fabulous, but what are they doing about it? What are the best examples you've heard for dealing with that?

Absolutely, Laura. I know the evidence that you heard; obviously, I did as well. As I said, the numbers of people in temporary accommodation have gone up. So, they're numbers, but they're individuals behind all that, aren't they? And there are too many in temporary accommodation at the moment, particularly in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. You know, the numbers—. There's been a bit of a trend, the numbers of children in bed-and-breakfast accommodation has come down; there's still too many, but, you know, I think that's something that we're keeping, obviously, a very close eye on. 

The key point, as you mentioned, was around supply, and that's what we're trying to get into the system as well. It's been very difficult over the last few years in terms of building more affordable homes. We are doing that. We're putting record amounts of money into that. And, you know, when we have been able to find some extra money, we have put that into it because we know supply is so important.

So, local authorities are looking closely, I know, and they feel the pressure as well with the people in temporary accommodation, but there are some good examples where local authorities are really trying to do everything they can to move people out of the more unsuitable types of accommodation, for example, bed and breakfast. I heard an example, I think, yesterday, of Powys County Council, and they were talking about how they were going to move more people out and the challenges that they have, but they've got a real eye on trying to get people out of bed and breakfast. Sarah.

Just to add to what the Cabinet Secretary was saying as well, obviously, we've also got the transitional accommodation capital programme, with £100 million going into that next year. Very much looking—. Because it's really important that we invest in prevention at the end to stop people coming into temporary accommodation and then invest to be able to support local authorities with move-on accommodation out of temporary accommodation. And certainly, you know, bringing forward quickly more sustainable permanent housing solutions has been really successful and has been really welcomed by local authorities and registered social landlords in terms of the flexibility of that programme to quickly bring forward more homes.

And we've got a good pipeline of those projects as well, which is really important.

Absolutely, and we have got really good examples in some local authority areas where some local authorities have restructured their teams to focus much more—having teams specifically focused on prevention so that they're not taken away by responding to the acute end, but they're able to focus and do that earlier work with people around prevention, which is really, really important. So, there is good work going on out there, but do recognise that there is considerable demand in the system, and it's going to take a while. We are working with them to bring down those numbers in temporary accommodation and, as the Cabinet Secretary says, particularly the worst forms of temporary accommodation.

And we've got schemes such as Help to Stay, which is a scheme that is quite new, and we still need to make sure that we get as much information out to local authorities and to people as possible. We're trying to get people to stay in their own homes, if they've got a mortgage. So, there's some really good work going on there. Getting the advice early on—that's really important. So, we are really trying to think of ways that we can help stem those families having to go into temporary accommodation at an early stage, so that's getting in at prevention time as well.  

Peter.

[Inaudible.]—final question, Cabinet Secretary. Some of the witnesses mentioned some strong concerns about the commissioning of large-scale accommodation. They believe that this would institutionalise homelessness. I just wondered if these large-scale projects are in keeping with your vision for the rapid rehousing direction.

Yes, absolutely, Peter, I understand the concerns that people have and concerns that have been raised with you. I just want to say it's not a default model that we'd like to see across Wales. The reality is there's huge demand in some areas and, obviously, in those areas, some of the options are very limited. Congregated settlements really do need to be supported and managed properly. I think that's a really key point. So, we can't entirely discount them. But I think, where they do exist, that support and management is really, really important. But the whole ethos around rapid rehousing is to ensure that everyone experiencing homelessness can move into a settled home as quickly as possible rather than staying in that temporary condition.

Thank you.

Okay, Peter. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Siân Gwenllian.

Diolch, Siân. I think you put that so right around the miraculous work that staff do under pressure. We just can't do this without those staff. They are absolutely pivotal in everything that we do within this. I absolutely recognise the pressure on front-line workforce. We know we've had that report from Cymorth and Community Housing Cymru, which highlighted the growing complexity and risk front-line workers face on a day-to-day basis, the impact on their well-being, staff turnover, and the need to ensure that staff receive that recognition and support. Again, we recognise that, which is why we've uplifted the budgets this year and next year to support the sector to pay the real living wage. I know we need to do more. We've been working with a specific workforce task and finish group under our national advisory board. They’re looking at five key areas around the workforce. One of those is pay, with skills and qualifications, support systems, best practice in recruitment, and commissioning. I recently met with the chair and members as well, on how we can work together on this. The task and finish group are due to report shortly, actually, and I’d be very happy to write to the committee about that, on the next steps that we can take following their report.

No, Siân, that is part of the work that the taskforce is looking at. It comes under 'support systems for staff', so that is part of that work. Absolutely, we’ve heard from staff directly. I’ve heard from staff directly, and we hear from Cymorth, about the pressures that staff are under and the abuse that they’ve been facing as well.

But, again, in terms of the pay aspect as well, this is something that they will be reporting to me on. It says 'shortly' in my paper. I don’t know how quickly 'shortly' is, but as soon as 'shortly' happens, I will make sure we write to the committee around that with the next steps.

'A huge bulk of the £21 million will go on national insurance'.

Diolch, Siân. I understand—. Just firstly, I think it’s important, again, to say that we’ve had that £21 million uplift, and that was a direct response to the pressures raised by the sector. So, I just want to state the importance that I put on what they were saying to me around the pressures faced, and we were able to indicate that in the draft budget setting process. So, that’s a £21 million uplift, or 11 per cent. And just to say, as set out in the evidence paper, we’ve increased HSG funding by 60 per cent since its inception in 2019.

But I do share your concerns about—. I know there are concerns about the impact of increased employer national insurance contributions on organisations across the sector. As you said, national insurance and decisions about it are not devolved to Wales. I recognise that local authorities need to set out in their HSG spend plans how the allocation meets all relevant increases in staffing costs to ensure the continuation of services. As you’ll know, discussions have happened with the UK Government in relation to additional funding. The Cabinet Secretary for finance has written to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, setting out concerns regarding both the anticipated allocation of funding for public service employers, and the additional costs for employers of contracted services that deliver on behalf of the public sector. So, that is something that the Cabinet Secretary for finance has been leading on. As I said, we haven't had final confirmation as yet of how much additional funding Wales will receive, but we'll continue to work with HM Treasury to clarify the details.

Diolch, Siân. Well, as I've said, this is not a devolved issue. I do understand the concerns raised from the sector. I know that the finance Cabinet Secretary has heard those as well, and he has raised those with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. As I said, this decision on the £21 million uplift, that was in direct response to pressures that were raised by the sector preceding this, and we're in the situation where we've been able to do this within our own budget. But, obviously, the discussions are still being had with the UK Government on how much additional funding Wales will receive. [Interruption.] Sorry, Siân. Sara would like to come in. 

I think it's worth adding we have asked local authorities, as they do every year, to send their annual spending plans. Most have come in and my team have reviewed them and, so far, those plans have indicated that most of those plans will cover the staffing costs from the real living wage increases and the changes to the national insurance contributions. So, I appreciate, obviously, that some of the funding is being used towards national insurance contributions, but it's not saying so far that it's going to impact the ability to pay the real living wage. 

Diolch, Siân. I'll just bring Sarah in on this question. 

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. So, as Sara was saying, we collect information. Local authorities have to send their spend plans back to us so that we can assess how they're allocating their budgets against the various different areas that the HSG covers, but also in terms of how they're allocating the additional uplift as well. So, the information that we've had back so far, as Sara said, indicates that the additional uplift is able to cover all of the increased staffing costs that services are facing, and local authorities are able to meet those additional costs. So, certainly, what we're seeing back through the spend plans doesn't indicate that the additional money within the budget allocations is meaning that local authorities aren't able to meet the additional costs currently that services are facing. But, we're still getting some of that information back and we'll continue to monitor that and work with local authorities to assess how services are able to deliver. But, certainly, the evidence so far indicates that there's sufficient budget there to meet those additional staffing costs in the system. But we are keen to collect that information and break it down in terms of how much of that £21 million is being spent on supporting the sector with the real living wage, how much is being spent on the increased national insurance costs as well, so that we've got that data and information.

And I suppose the question to ask is: is there an impact on services? Because, if they are able to meet their staffing costs, does that mean that there is less of a service being provided—do you know that, or are you going to be looking at that particular aspect, which is, of course, the crux of the matter?

Absolutely. So, as well as engaging with local authorities through their spending plans and their HSG plans, we also engage frequently with Cymorth as well to understand what's happening in the sector—the impact of various changes, the impact of the additional money—so that we're getting information and data from various sources so that we've got a good understanding of what's going on in the sector. So, yes, absolutely, we'll be asking those questions and collecting that information.

Thank you, Siân. As I say, I know that local authorities are under a considerable amount of pressure to commission services to meet that local need. We’ve talked about this morning, haven’t we, that complexity of need and the numbers coming forward? I think it’s important to say that HSG guidance already allows for full staff-cost recovery for front-line support staff, and we are reviewing those draft spend plans, as Sarah has said already. So, I think that covers most of the local authorities points.

Yes, I’d just add that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned earlier the workforce task and finish group—commissioning is one aspect that they’re looking at as well, and obviously the impact on their workforce and if there are issues that we need to look at in terms of the guidance or other areas. So, as the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, we’re awaiting that report from the task and finish group. So, as I say, commissioning is an area that they’re looking at as well, working with us. And it’s worth noting that that group is chaired by Clare Budden, who I think gave evidence to the committee, so you’ll be aware of. And it’s very much led by the sector, that group: so Cymorth sit on it and service providers so that we’ve got—. The report and the information coming through there is very much reflective of the sector, so, we’ll be getting that shortly.

And I think the make-up of that is really important to highlight, isn't it, because they're doing a really challenging piece of work, I think, on these five streams, and we've touched on some of those today, and some of them are tricky. But we're determined that, working together, we can really try and overcome some of this. They're doing this really important work, so, I'm very happy to keep you updated when I receive that report and how we can go forward from it as well.

Diolch yn fawr, Siân. If you could keep us updated, Cabinet Secretary, that would be very useful for us. Laura Ann Jones.

Diolch, Chair. Cabinet Secretary, just quickly following on from that before I start my line of questioning, the increase in national insurance and the real living wage, it's going to have a massive impact. Just following on from what Siân said, it is going to have an impact. That money to cover those costs is going to come from somewhere, so, somewhere someone is going to lose out. And we're all very concerned about the impact on that third sector. When are we going to know about the outcomes of your conversations with the UK Government about any additional money? When are we going to hear that? I keep asking this question—I've asked you probably three times in the last month or so—and it's about time we had an answer on some sort of timeline on when we're going to hear back about that, because that will have a massive impact on all of these discussions.

Thank you, Laura, and I think, as Sara and Sarah have also said, we are collecting information from local authorities, which is really important in terms of what they're finding at the moment. As I said, in terms of national insurance, the Cabinet Secretary for finance has been leading the discussions with the UK Government, rather than myself directly. He's heard from those third sector organisations as well. So, we haven't had that final confirmation of how much money we'll receive. We'll continue to work with the Treasury on that, and, as soon as we have got any new information, we will share that, obviously.

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, support services aren't formally regulated like they are in Scotland, and, to an extent, in England as well. Does this increase the risk for our service users here?

Thank you, Laura. It is important to say, firstly, that there is, obviously, no equivalent of the HSG in England or Scotland, so the context is really different. Local authorities use dedicated ring-fenced HSG funding to commission and oversee housing support services in Wales. That's underpinned by really robust commissioning and monitoring arrangements, as we've discussed this morning, providing authorities assurance about the delivery of services. So, the governance and oversight help mitigate the risks to service users in the delivery of those services.

Okay, thank you. There is some concern amongst local authorities, who tell us that they send outcomes data to the Welsh Government, but nothing is coming back. Is the Welsh Government intending to publish the outcomes data for transparency and service improvement?

Thank you, Laura. So, we do have that data that comes back; we do have data that they send in. Some of that data is for them, in terms of what they need, and we've got our HSG outcomes framework data, and we're, obviously, as I mentioned in the evidence paper, fully intending to publish that data. Sara.

I can add, yes. So, I appreciate, from local authorities' and providers' perspective, the frustration. It was only implemented in April 2023, so, the first year, we collected data, but there were still some issues in terms of consistency of data recording. We've worked with those local authorities and providers and my team also brought in checks to some of the data submissions to help with that process. So, our intention is to share a summary of the outcomes data for the full 2024-25 financial year. We'll probably be in a position to do that in the summertime, after we've received and quality-assured the data, and we can share that with the committee.

Okay, thank you. Do you want to—? 

I was beaten by Sara. [Laughter.]

Okay. Diolch. Local authorities said they'd be open to standardising and streamlining their own data to reduce that burden on the services. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that this is desirable, and will you take the lead in this?

I'm very supportive of streamlining in principle. We're looking at another piece of work, which is reducing the administrative burden on local authorities as well, but, obviously, local authorities need to collect certain types of data, perhaps more detailed data, because, obviously, they have to be assured in terms of the monitoring of service delivery. So, I think it's important that we do make sure that it meets the needs of authorities to effectively manage the commissioning services, but, in principle, I'm very supportive of streamlining, in principle.

Just to add, I think it is worth saying that the process of developing the new outcomes framework for the HSG was a streamlining process as well, and very much done co-productively with service providers and with local authorities. We piloted it before it was rolled out to iron out some issues, so there has been a considerable amount of streamlining done already as well to make sure that we, at a Welsh Government level, aren't collecting data that we don't use. We want to be collecting the right data that tells us the impact that the funding we're putting into HSG is having.

It's worth adding as well that, even though we haven't yet summarised the data that we've received, local authorities compile that data from their providers, so they can already use the data for that purpose, and providers themselves can and do use that data as part of their regular reviews of service users' support plans. So, I appreciate it's helpful to see the wider context and how each service compares in terms of the overall picture, so that is something we will be doing in the near future.

Okay, diolch.

Okay, Laura. Lesley Griffiths.

Thanks very much, Chair. Good morning, everyone. I want to look at housing support, and, whilst I appreciate you need to constantly look at the housing support that we give, and I know there is consideration being looked at at changing some of it, I wonder if you could outline for us, Cabinet Secretary, what your vision is for the future of that housing support.

Thank you for that question. Just to say, in terms of the housing support grant, what I would say in a few words is that we've protected it, we've invested in it, and it's at the forefront of our future policy. That shows our long-term commitment to protect this grant. It's been co-produced in terms of guidance and a refreshed outcomes framework, and, again, we just talked about streamlining of local projects into that HSG. Again, as I've said a number of times in the evidence paper, it's going to continue to be our main homelessness prevention grant, and, as such, it's really pivotal in achieving the Welsh Government's ambition to end homelessness, and I want to see a continued investment in staff and services that the HSG supports.

Okay. So, looking at specific parts of the funding that you give to local authorities—so, again, looking at the rehousing guidance that the Welsh Government have brought forward—you talk about wanting to move more away from supported accommodation, which I personally think is really, really good, to floating support. Obviously, floating support, whilst it can be very beneficial, it's very intense, it's quite short term, and I just wonder how you envisage the transition from that more supported accommodation to floating. Again, supported accommodation is much more long term, you can work with somebody for a longer period of time, whereas I just think floating support is a bit short term, and I wonder what your view is on that.

Diolch, Lesley. It's important to say that we do recognise there's always going to be a need for supported accommodation, as this will be the right settled housing solution for some people. Spend plan data for 2024-25 show continued growth in those floating support services, including in housing first provision, and that's supported by our increased investment and the direction set out in our rapid rehousing guidance. Homelessness prevention and effective floating support services are key aspects of that rapid rehousing, and the HSG is obviously key to the success of the shift to move to a rapid rehousing approach to ensure that the right support is available to people at the right time. I think that's the crucial part, isn't it, really, that people are getting the support. But, like I said, there is always going to, for some people, be that need for supported accommodation.

So, in relation to the floating support, do you think that is happening? Thinking about my own constituency casework, I'm not so sure I would agree with you on that. Are you happy—? Are officials monitoring it to make sure that that actually happens?

Yes, absolutely, Lesley. I'll just bring in Sarah, who'll be able to say a bit more.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Certainly, it's not just this year's worth of spend plan data; the last few years have shown a growth in the amount of funding put into floating support. So, we're certainly seeing a shift in terms of how HSG allocations in different areas across Wales are being spent, and we are seeing more floating support services, absolutely, which is in line with our policy direction, as you've set out, in terms of the rapid rehousing guidance.

I think, in terms of your point around the length of time, the HSG guidance doesn't set a specific time period, because I think, again, it's really important, and this very much came through when we developed the HSG guidance co-productively with the sector, building on the Supporting People guidance that we had before, setting prescriptive time limits—. Not everybody is the same, and it's really important that this support is in place for an individual for long as they may need it, based on their own individual needs. That might be a short period of time for some people, and it might be a longer period of time for others. But, certainly, the data and the information we're getting through the spend plans does show that shift in focus and emphasis and move to more floating support.

Okay. Thanks, Sarah. If we can look at housing first, Cabinet Secretary, again, not every local authority has a housing first project. Would you prefer all 22 local authorities to have that, where, you know, you have that very—? Again, it's very intensive, you're moving people very quickly from a homeless situation to ensuring that they've got accommodation. We've heard in evidence, whilst we appreciate that it might not be appropriate for everybody, I think it is a very successful way of ensuring that people, particularly young people, don't experience homelessness for a long period of time. Other local authorities are saying that they're not going to keep going with housing first, because of lack of resources. And while I appreciate that it's up to them how they use their housing grant envelope, I just wonder what your view is on local authorities with housing first.

Diolch, Lesley. As you say, I know that not all local authorities have housing first projects, but, just to say, I think there are four that don't, but I'm aware that two of those authorities are actually considering projects as part of their transition to rapid rehousing, so I think that that's really positive. Obviously, we supported that initial roll-out of housing first through the specific Housing First grant programme, and just to say, the tenancy sustainment rate of 91 per cent of the programme really does demonstrate that effectiveness in Wales, and I think that that does speak for itself. But if you speak to people who've gone into that programme as well, and have been affected by that, I think you'd hear directly how important that has been. I certainly have and I think that 91 per cent is a real testament. 

We'll continue to promote the further roll-out of housing first with both local authorities and RSLs to keep sharing that good practice and that impressive tenancy sustainment rate. We're also exploring whether and how we might roll out the current Housing First programme funding into the HSG, as part of the work to support local authorities in taking a strategic view of housing need in their areas. So, that's one point.

And then I think it's really important that—and I can't emphasise enough how crucial housing supply is to enable local authorities to have successful and sustainable housing first projects, because without that, there's no housing first. So, we really do need long-term commitments and buy-in from our RSLs to support local authorities with housing first projects.

One of the things we've been hearing is that local authorities aren't really aware of housing first. You mentioned that two of the four are now, you think, bringing projects forward. You talked about sharing best practice, which is so important. Is any work being done with the two local authorities—I don’t know who they are—now that haven't got them?

Do you want to—? Yes. I think Sarah will be able to tell you about some of the work that's going on and how we've got to also help with trying to get the other two to be part of this also.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, we work directly with all the local authorities anyway through our relationship managers. So, we're having conversations about housing first and other good practice models. I think it is important to say that, obviously, housing first, as you've mentioned, is for that really complex end; it is one tool in a toolbox of housing-led approaches as part of a rapid rehousing approach. So, it is important. And it may be the case that, in some areas, if they're in a fortunate position to not have individuals who are at that really complex end in their needs assessment, they may not require a housing first model in their area. But certainly, as we were talking about earlier, given the complexity of need that we're seeing generally across Wales, we would encourage local authorities, as part of their rapid rehousing plans and their needs assessments, to look very seriously at how housing first might help them with that really high-end complex needs cohort that we know exists in most if not all areas across Wales.

So, we've done best practice webinars specifically on housing first as part of the wider rapid rehousing, because we do know, as you said, about local authorities sometimes, maybe, and other partners, not properly understanding what housing first is, and I think that's true about rapid rehousing more broadly. So, as well as the workforce task and finish group under the advisory board, we've also got a task and finish group that's looking at rapid rehousing and communications and sharing best practice, but also getting that knowledge and understanding of these approaches up in areas across Wales, and that demonstration that it is proven to work in Wales, as the Cabinet Secretary says—that 91 per cent tenancy sustainment rate for individuals who are at that most complex end—is hugely impressive. We also fund Cymorth Cymru to have a housing first network and to undertake the accreditation process with local authorities as well, to make sure that, for those who do have housing first projects, if you get accreditation, it’s making sure that they are adhering fully to the principles of housing first, because it’s really important that that adherence to the model and the principles is done to ensure that—. You know, you need all the components to get that success and that sustainment rate. So, there’s lots of different work going on.

You mentioned the rapid rehousing task and finish group. When’s that due to report?

So—I'd have to check. I don't know off the top of my head, sorry. But they are doing some specific communications work at the moment, I know, and they're also doing a number of deep dives with local authorities on their rapid rehousing plans and how that's working in practice, how it correlates to their local housing market assessment and the wider work that they’re doing on housing supply. So, maybe we could write to the committee and give a bit more information on the work of the task and finish group and what their forward work programme looks like.

That would be useful, thanks, yes.

Thanks very much. Just one final question from me, because we’ve heard about barriers for young people when they’re in supported accommodation, because the rent is so high and the service charge et cetera—that’s a barrier for them then being able to come off benefits and get into employment, which obviously is a consequence we wouldn’t want to see. I just wonder if you are working with, or if you will look to work with local authorities to see what can be done again within the housing support grant to ensure that that is not a barrier to those who do want to go and find work.

Diolch, Lesley. I think that relates to the level of housing benefit that people are entitled to if they’re in supported housing settings. Yes?

Yes, and it would be affected if they access employment. It would reduce. Because, generally, the levels of housing benefit for someone in supported housing is higher, to recognise the cost of providing those services.

But I believe that that’s been flagged by officials to the Department for Work and Pensions as well. I don’t know if that’s something we’ll be able to keep the committee updated with—any discussions that we’ve had with the DWP.

Yes.

I think that would be helpful, yes, if you could.

Yes. It's worth adding as well that the Department for Work and Pensions has recently launched a consultation on planned changes to its supported housing benefits. So, we will be feeding into that consultation, so this is an opportunity for us to flag this concern again.

I think in terms of some of the—. You mentioned the use of the housing support grant to fund some of the differences. I think it’s worth flagging that we do allow the housing support grant to be 10 per cent for project running costs, so overhead costs. The reason we don’t allow it to be used for wider accommodation costs is because the grant is non-statutory and it’s there to complement a local authority’s statutory responsibilities and its funding through its revenue support grant. Secondly, we know that if we allowed more of the grant funding to be used towards accommodation costs, it would reduce the amount of funding that’s available for front-line support staffing costs. We already know that the majority of the grant is used to fund those support staffing costs. So, we’d be happy to speak to some of the stakeholders about these issues.

I think as well it’s worth highlighting that local authorities themselves do have access to other funding streams. There’s something called the discretionary housing payment budget that’s provided by the Department for Work and Pensions. It provides financial support towards costs for housing benefits in certain circumstances. What I would say is that it is discretionary, so local authorities do have to consider that budget and the applications for assistance on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you.

Okay, Lesley? Thank you. Just one final question from me, in terms of the way funding works and whether it is less encouraging of innovation than it was in the recent past. We've heard evidence that that is the case. Is that something you recognise? Is the way that local authorities commission less allowing of innovation than it once was?

I don't see that. I think it's really important to recognise that the transitional accommodation capital funding programme actually came out of the Ukraine war as well, and the innovation that we saw to create that. So, that's something that's been very recent. So, I think, in challenging times, sometimes it actually means that people do really focus in on what can be done, and actually innovation can really flourish. I think from my perspective, there's always more to do, isn't there, that you see from local authorities. But I do think that, at the moment, we have seen this innovation come forward, and I think that we can hopefully continue to do that.

Laura. 

Thank you. Just a really quick question at the end; I don't think we've covered it. What are you doing in terms of prison leavers, because we've heard evidence already today that it's a real problem? They're not coming out with packages of support in place, particularly housing support, which has a knock-on effect on a whole load of things, doesn't it? So, having a house, having a home to go to, is of fundamental importance so those prison leavers don't end up going back to prison and go down routes that I've seen recently on a visit to Newport, in the Salvation Army, which is the result of not having a package of support in place early doors. What work are you doing with the UK Government in that regard to ensure that that's in place, and with local authorities?

Yes, absolutely, Laura. I think there needs to be work done, doesn't there, while people are in prison to make sure that we know that they're coming out. I think there's been some good work that happened when we had the early release scheme of prisoners. I think the work that was done with local authorities and the prison service to identify those early release people who are coming out through that scheme—I think that showed that it can be done, that work can be done to identify properties and make sure that they're aware before they come out. Obviously, it's something where we've got our homelessness legislation, which will be brought forward shortly, so I know that was something that's been discussed in the White Paper as well. Sorry, Sarah.

Just to add, we do work really closely with HM Prison and Probation Service. I jointly chair with—I can’t remember her title, sorry;FootnoteLink my equivalent within HMPPS in Wales—a group with local authorities, other partners, looking at a refresh of the prison pathway, because obviously we've got a set pathway to try and support people whilst they're in prison, because we know when they're due to come out and what their situation is, so all of that work should be happening whilst somebody is within the prison estate. So, there's a lot of work going on.

We also jointly fund with HMPPS six area planning co-ordinators across Wales to work with local authorities and the PLUs—I can’t remember what the acronym stands for, sorryFootnoteLink—within each region across Wales to make sure that that data sharing, data information, as the Cabinet Secretary says—. Actually, the early prison release scheme actually facilitated much better data sharing, earlier data sharing, and there are loads of lessons that we're taking from that to build that into standard processes. We've got very clear shared outcomes in terms of our desire to end homelessness, and the reducing reoffending agenda is absolutely complementary, so we work really closely with HMPPS.

Could I just really quickly say that, from my own experience from my work, it's not happening really, it's not really working at the moment? That's great that there's some work being done on it, and something's being successful, but from what I'm seeing, a lot of homelessness stems from the fact there is nothing in place, and the fact that when they're dropped out of prison without a plan, without anything, those people have a day, 24 hours, to sort everything—their housing, their job, everything—otherwise they end up back on the street and we go back to square one. So, something's not working. How are you monitoring that?

The refresh of the prisoner pathway is absolutely acknowledging that the system isn't working in the way we would want it to. As the Cabinet Secretary has mentioned as well, the forthcoming legislative reform also, as you will have seen in the White Paper, has some provisions in there that specifically look at targeted prevention for prisoners. Because we know that some of the preventative duty should be happening earlier for prisoners, and that planning should start as soon as they're entering the prison estate, not five days before release, or whatever. So, we know there are things that need to be rectified in the system, and are working with HMPPS and local authorities, very much using real-life examples, to look at, 'Okay, we know how it should be working, why isn't it working like that in practice?', to try and overcome that.

Just another angle as well—. Sorry, I know we're going over time, but just really quickly. When people are coming out of hospital and need adaptations to their houses because there isn't a suitable house, if a big accident has happened, or whatever, how are you working with that? You know what I mean—you're nodding.

I think that's a really important point as well, how we work with the local health boards. What we should have is a discharge pathway, so that, when you go into hospital, all those things like, if you need adaptations done to your house, for example, somebody like Care & Repair can go in while you're actually in hospital to do those adaptations. I know that, sometimes, that works better with perhaps some local authorities than others, but it's still something that is crucial in trying to prevent those delayed discharges of care that we're seeing, which are way too high at the moment.

Thank you. 

Just very finally, Cabinet Secretary—[Laughter.]—on the information, the data, on those being released from prison, do you have statistics on numbers over a period of time that have been homeless after release and what the current picture is?

The data could be better. I think that's the very honest answer. We do collect some data through our statutory data collection. I can't recall exactly what that data collection is, but we can give you some information on that. But, certainly, part of the work we're doing with HMPPS, and certainly what we've heard from local authorities as well, is that if they had data earlier in terms of that cohort, and were able to do that planning then, that data sharing is absolutely essential. And that's part of what we're working on at the moment as well. But, yes, through the statutory homelessness data, there is information within that in terms of people represented within that homeless population who are homeless on release. So, we can provide the committee with the latest data that we've got, but, certainly, it's an area that we would like to get better data on as well.

Is one of the basics local authorities and perhaps others just knowing which prisoners are likely to be released when that are likely to come to live in their local authority area?

I think that was what was really interesting about the early release scheme. Because I think the way local authorities worked with HMP was really good, because they were able to identify at that early stage when somebody was coming out, when they'd be going. That's what obviously should be happening throughout the time, because you're actually going to get better outcomes for people, which is what we're all trying to do.

But also understanding, when somebody comes into the prison estate, are they on a short-term sentence, do they have a current tenancy, could a small measure be taken to sustain that tenancy for them, so that they won't be homeless on release. There are some models, again through the group, that are happening in some areas across Wales, testing some of that. Because, again, that's potentially a much more cost-effective intervention than somebody coming out of prison into really costly temporary accommodation, and staying in there for a lengthy period of time. So, it's looking right through the spectrum, I think, of what can you do to sustain—if they've got accommodation and going in on a short-term sentence, what can we do to try and help them sustain that. And also, then, if they're in for longer or don't have accommodation, we understand who, in that prison population, is coming out to different authority areas and doesn't have secure housing, and what is being done, then, working with the local authority, so that they know that person is coming, and a plan is being put in place to be able to respond and activate that, so that they shouldn't be homeless on release.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary; thank you to your officials. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way.

Diolch. And we'll also make sure that information is sent to you as well, for example on the Cardiff example, and also when we get the report from the expert review group as well.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr.

The next item is papers to note, item 5. Paper 5 is correspondence from the Welsh Cladiators in relation to building safety. Paper 6 is a letter from us to the Cabinet Secretary in relation to building safety, following the correspondence from the Welsh Cladiators. Papers 7, 8 and 9 are additional information in relation to our inquiry into housing support for vulnerable people. Are Members content to note the papers? I see that you are. Thank you very much.

Item 6 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Is committee content to do so? I see that you are. We will move to private session.