National Assembly for Wales

The next item is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Rhys is joining us online—hello, Rhys—and we're just awaiting Vaughan Gething to join the meeting, but we'll continue; we're quorate, so we'll continue. We've had no apologies as yet.

So, we're going to start with new petitions, and the first petition is 2.1, P-06-1488, 'Establish a "Care Society" to Tackle the Long COVID Crisis in Wales'. So, the petition reads:

'Wales is grappling with escalating long-term illnesses from Long COVID in previously healthy children and working people.

'In Wales, more than 12,000 have died with COVID [1, BBC]. As many as 300,000 are battling Long COVID [2, ONS].

'-Families are losing income providers [3, Bylines]
'-Hospitals under extreme pressure [4, Wales Online]
'-School absences more than doubled [5, BBC]

'By 2030, 1 in 3 could have Long COVID. We call for a "Care Society" to safeguard our health and livelihoods.'

The submitter of the petition is Elizabeth Trombley with 260 signatures. So, earlier, I was pleased to meet the petitioner and Members who wanted to discuss the petition. There are three areas that they would like us to look at—well, five areas, actually. One of them is funding for long COVID research in clinics and workplace adjustments. We heard from Siân, who was saying that she used to work for the health board as a physiotherapist, and she felt like she could perhaps still continue to work if there was flexibility, but that was unable to be offered to her, and in the end, her employment was terminated because she wasn't able to fulfil her contract as expected, rather than—. She felt she could have continued to be employed with some flexibility. So, that's something we could possibly look at. A universal basic income pilot, we've trialled that already with care leavers, and that's a suggestion going forward, so that there's financial security for people with chronic illnesses. We've also discussed the impact on carers, as well, who need to look after somebody with long-term chronic conditions. Improved air quality in schools and hospitals with better filtration systems; and then, green infrastructure and jobs, going forward. So, there might be areas there where people could be upskilled, and work there in that field of work as well, where they could be retrained.

So, I think going forward, there are some suggestions. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines haven't been updated since 2021, so we could write to the Government to ask about that, if you feel that's something that you would support. We could write to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice regarding the suggestion of a universal basic income pilot. Maybe that's something that they could look at, going forward. It seems to me that there are a lot of unknowns with long COVID, still, at the moment, so, maybe, going forward, Welsh Government could look at this, and maybe that's something that they could consider if they're looking at other universal basic income trials for other areas, they could look at this as well.

And then, we could write to the Cabinet Secretary for healthcare regarding considering employment, as well. We've got a shortage of skilled health workers. With it being a public body, perhaps there could be more flexibility there. It's something I've asked for at meetings, anyway, if we could have more flexibility with the workforce, where, at the moment, many have to work 12-hour shifts, it might help. So, that's something that we could perhaps do as well, if committee are minded to do that, going forward. 

But I was surprised—. A leaflet was handed out here saying that they believe that as many as one in 10 people in Wales have long COVID, so people are diagnosed as living with myalgic encephalomyelitis and maybe there are people who are undiagnosed as well, who are living with long COVID. So, I think there are still a lot of unknowns and a lot to be considered here, going forward. The report says that as of March 2023, an estimated 108,000 people in Wales have long COVID and the Office for National Statistics estimates that 2.9 per cent of the UK population are affected, which is a lot. So, how do you feel about taking this forward? Luke, would you like to come in?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think the scope of this work is going to be quite large. I wasn't at the meeting earlier with petitioners, but I think this is something that has really needed to be addressed for a number of years now, obviously since COVID, because we know, of course, that the number of people who are out of work overall across all sectors of the economy is significantly higher than it was before the pandemic. So, I think there is, perhaps, cause and correlation there. I think there's a need for Government, across different portfolios, to have a strategy for bringing people back into the workplace who might have long COVID. We just simply don't know; the research hasn't been done on this.

It's not necessarily a problem, but just thinking about this logically, the scope of this goes beyond simply the Petitions Committee. So, I think there are some suggestions you've already made in terms of contacting or writing to other relevant subject committees. I think there's a need to write, not necessarily just to the Cabinet Secretary for health or the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, perhaps there should be a letter to the First Minister around overall Government strategy towards tackling this particular issue. Because the only worry I have is that if we're contacting individual portfolio holders, then we'll fall into the trap of silo working, and the overall strategy of the Government wouldn't be put together. So, what I'm trying to propose here, if I can get my words together properly, is a letter to the First Minister about the Government's strategy on tackling long COVID, and particularly those people who are out of work or struggling to get back to work because of potentially undiagnosed long COVID, but the relevant Cabinet Secretaries, the economy Cabinet Secretary, the social justice Cabinet Secretary and health Cabinet Secretary should be carbon copied into that letter, because, obviously, they'd need to be aware of those specific things.

I think it's worth while contacting the relevant committees for those portfolios to see what work—or if they've done any work. I know one or two committees have done some form of inquiry into the effects of long COVID, but it's worth just touching base with those committees to see what's happened and to see, if they haven't done anything, if they're planning on doing some work. I know from the economy committee's perspective, which I also sit on, the work has been relatively patchy. We've touched on it in other inquiries, but there hasn't been a single inquiry into it, a focused inquiry into it. So, there might be a conversation to be had with other committees around what exactly is the forward work programme and how exactly do we plan on then putting recommendations to Welsh Government.

I think that's very useful, Luke. Thank you for that suggestion. Another element was school absenteeism. It was highlighted how many young people are struggling with COVID as well, so that's another element to it that I didn't mention earlier.

That, of course, speaks to the cross-portfolio nature of the issue, doesn't it?

Yes, absolutely.

And I just worry, because of the scope of it, that we could potentially lose the point here, which is that the Government, across a number of portfolios, has to come up with some sort of strategy, which just simply hasn't happened yet.

Okay, thank you. Perhaps the COVID committee, just so that they're aware of this, as well.

Yes.

Okay. Are we in agreement, Rhys, as well? Is that okay? Yes.

Have you been able to—? I don't need to summarise that any more; I think it was very clear. Thank you very much, Luke. That was really useful. Thank you very much. So, we'll keep it open, and we'll write to the First Minister and everybody else. Thank you.

So, if we move on now to item 3. I'd like to also—. Sorry, that was remiss of me; I'd like to thank members for attending earlier, as well, if they're here. Thank you.

Moving on to item 3, updates to previous petitions. So, we've got petition P-06-1335, a Mencap Cymru petition, which is, 'Welsh Government should take steps to ensure vulnerable adults without bank cards can pay with cash'. There were 2,504 signatures altogether. So, Joel, are you okay to take us through this? Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious that we've had the petition for quite some time, but in recent correspondence from ourselves to the Cabinet Secretary, which we've shared with Mencap Cymru, they've come back with a few more concerns that they'd like addressing. And I thought we might as well forward them on to the Cabinet Secretary for their comments and see what the responses are and then probably look at closing it then, if it's—not now, but when we get those responses.

Okay. Thank you, Joel. Yes. So, I think they wanted clarification about when discretion can be applied for those who don't have cash to pay for items on board the railway service, the train service. I was on a train a few weeks ago and it had engine failure, unfortunately, in the middle of nowhere, and we were stuck for 45 minutes and we were offered free refreshments. I think the decision was made by the guard on board, so we were offered free refreshments, so I know there is discretion, but it's just clarification, really, over how that can be operated. So, we can write back again to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, just to seek clarification on how discretion could actually work. I suppose the staff need to know, if it's not a clear black-and-white policy, how do they know and how will customers know that they're entitled to discretion? Transport for Wales are pretty good now; it's a very good service on the whole and more generous than others. But if we could do that, write to the Cabinet Secretary and just seek clarification on that, going forward. Okay. And then, hopefully, we'll get a good answer and we can close the petition after that. Very good. Thank you. Are we all in agreement? Rhys, is that okay with you? Great. Thumbs up.

Moving on to 3.2, petition P-06-1350, 'Re-open Dyfi Ward at Tywyn Hospital now'. The submitter is Jane Seddon Barraclough, with 5,528 signatures. So, Rhys, could I bring you in to talk about this? Thank you.

Thank you, Cadeirydd. I think this is the sixth time we've discussed this petition. I believe I've spoken on this petition at least once before, if not more. I think it's fair to say that we've been fairly frustrated, on occasions, with the responses, or maybe the lack of responses received. But we did have a detailed response, a very detailed response, from the health board shortly before Christmas, and we've received critical responses to that letter from the campaign group, and also the Community Hospitals Association. I think the campaign group disputes the information provided with regard to capacity and provision, and the Community Hospitals Association is highly critical of the process and the approach that the health board has taken. It's difficult to see how we can reconcile these two very different views.

I know, Chair, that you've spoken to the health board and perhaps you will have something to say later on. One way forward would be, perhaps, that we raise the issues from the campaign group and the health board to the Cabinet Secretary and copy in the health committee, so that they're aware of the issues, but I understand, Chair, perhaps, that you have another suggestion of how we can move things forward. But it's very difficult to see how we are going to be able to reconcile these two very different positions. Diolch.

Thank you, Rhys. Yes, it seems that the information provided has been disputed and it feels like it's a case of wanting to bring two lots together to discuss it openly together, because there are crossed views. I met with the health board last week with other Members. It was an update meeting for north Wales Members. And I did raise concerns regarding the hospital there and the petition as well. I did say that we were going to be discussing the petition at the meeting today, and we really needed to have more information and an update. So, she said that she would be able to provide more information and an update. I think she felt there was more to be said on it now. So, she said she would write to us on that. So, yes. I think the suggestion of a letter going to the Cabinet Secretary and to the health board would be a good suggestion, and then we can await that response, and hopefully there is better clarity and something that's more acceptable then, and a better understanding for the campaign group. Okay. There's a lot of nodding. Do we feel that's a good way forward? Okay, so we'll do that, then. We'll write to the Cabinet Secretary, copy in the chief executive of the health board, and say that the petition is still open and we're awaiting their response. Thank you very much. Thank you, Rhys.

Okay. So, if we move on now to 3.3, P-06-1405, 'We want and need a Mental Health unit for men in North Wales with beds'. This was submitted by Lynda Leigh with 261 signatures. So, can I bring Luke in to speak on this? Luke, before you speak on this, can I just say that we have received apologies now from Vaughan Gething? He is unable to attend the meeting. But we have enough Members, so we're fine—we can continue without him. Luke, would you be able to take us through this? Thank you.

Yes, of course. It's a really important topic. I've spoken a number of times in the Chamber about this particular topic. We know that there is some progress being made now, so the Government's mental health and well-being strategy and suicide and self-harm prevention strategy is currently being worked on. We haven't had a date yet as to when they will be published. I think that potentially some of the comments made by the petitioner could feed into that, into the Government's considerations of when they're putting together that strategy. I think it's worth checking what the timeline is for that strategy, just for clarity, and then once we have a date, I think we can come back to this petition. I think there's merit in keeping the petition open for the time being, feeding in the petitioner's comments and getting some comments back as well, once those strategies are published. So, I would propose that we keep it open, awaiting the publication of those strategies.

I think that's a good suggestion. I would support you on that, going forward. So, if we write to the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being—I think that's Sarah Murphy, isn't it—asking for clarification on the timeline, keep the petition open, and also write to her regarding the petitioner's comments as well, and observations, which I think are very important. Okay. Are we in agreement? Okay, Rhys, are you in agreement?

Yes.

Thank you. 

That now brings us on to agenda item 4, papers to note. Is committee content to note those? Okay, thank you.

That leads me on to our motion under Standing Orders to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the remainder of this meeting. Are you happy to move that? Okay, we're going to move into private now.