National Assembly for Wales

We are now in public session. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee here in Tŷ Hywel. It's a pleasure to welcome our guests to the committee meeting, as well as committee members. I'll just do a few housekeeping rules, if I may. Hannah Blythyn sends her apologies for today's meeting. I ask Members to declare any declarations of interest. No declarations of interest. Okay. 

We'll move straight into questions, if that's all right, then. I'll ask the guests first of all to introduce themselves for the record. I'll start at the right hand of the table and work across, if that's all right, for consistency. 

Good morning. I'm Harriet Barnes. I'm director of research, innovation and skills at Medr. 

Good morning. I'm Rhian Edwards. I'm the executive director for policy at Medr. 

Good morning. I'm Sharron Lusher. I'm the former chair of the vocational qualifications review. 

Thank you all very much. Just to draw your attention—a member of the committee, Hefin David, is joining us on the Zoom screen, and he'll be asking questions throughout the course of the meeting as well. My opening questions are directed at Medr's representatives today, please. I'd just like to understand exactly the role of Medr in delivering, obviously, apprenticeships and the framework around apprenticeships, bearing in mind, obviously, the role that the Welsh Government have. You're a relatively new organisation, coming into being in August of last year, I think I'm correct in saying. So, I'd invite one of you—or both of you, if you'd like—to address that question. 

I'll take that one, Chair. Yes, so, as you said, we came into being on 1 August of last year. It's an exciting opportunity, but what it has meant is a refresh and a reset of those respective responsibilities. So, just in summary, we would see that the Welsh Government has a responsibility for setting the national policy direction in relation to apprenticeships and skills. And in fact, in our strategic plan, which we went out to consultation on, we very much set that out in terms of Medr's responsibilities being to respond to those strategic priorities as set by the Government. 

At Medr, we have responsibility for the delivery and the operational management of the apprenticeship contract. So, the current apprenticeship contract that is due for renewal in 2027 has novated across to us as an organisation to manage. That means that we have the direct oversight and the relationship with the 10 prime contractors, and, obviously, there are sub-contractors that support them with the delivery. But as well as the management of the contract, we have responsibility for operational policy, which is really important in terms of ensuring that we have an apprenticeship infrastructure that really responds to Welsh Government policy—so, for example, in terms of the development of apprenticeship frameworks that are, obviously, responding to industry need. Just to be clear, in terms of the oversight of the quality of apprenticeships, we will continue our relationship with Estyn, and Estyn will continue to inspect the quality of provision that is delivered by our apprenticeship providers. 

And in terms of our strategic plan, we submitted that to Ministers in December of this year for ministerial approval. The actual strategy is set around five strategic aims, one of which is very much an economic focus, and, within that, we set out our priorities for the apprenticeship programme, moving forward. We're now in operational planning mode, and we are publishing our operational plan in May of this year. And what that operational plan will set out is how we intend to deliver upon those strategic priorities, and particularly in relation to our relationship with the Government, setting out how we will respond to, for example, the priorities set out within the apprenticeship policy statement. 

In terms of the governance relationship, there is a formal governance framework document that exists between the Welsh Government and Medr, but, in terms of apprenticeships specifically, we have a really close working relationship with Government officials. So, we meet with the apprenticeship policy team and the deputy director for skills on a fortnightly basis to talk about, obviously, their work and plans and, obviously, the activities that we are delivering. We have monthly exec meetings between executive officials within the Government and, obviously, ourselves within Medr. And, at a ministerial level, our chair and our chief exec meet with the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership on a quarterly basis, and that's supported by quarterly monitoring management meetings that we have through the tertiary education team in terms of formal reporting lines.

I think the other thing that's really important to us in terms of our relationship with the Government is looking at the interdependencies in terms of how we deliver apprenticeships in Wales. So, for example, looking at reform across the border, looking at what's happening with the reform of the skills levy, the evolving and emerging role of Skills England, for example, and that's a really helpful relationship for us to have as an organisation, having that open line of communication with the Government so that we understand how those changes are impacting on the delivery and nature of apprenticeships within Wales.

Hefin. The voice of God from behind you. [Laughter.]

Well, he's actually in front of me as well, Chair, so—. [Laughter.]

I should declare an interest as I did work with Rhian on my transitions report, when she was a Welsh Government civil servant.

Regarding the apprenticeship levy—you mentioned that; I think you were alluding to that just now—is the apprenticeship levy going to continue in the same form under another name?

I mean, obviously, that is going through quite a process of reform at a UK Government level, so, our job as Medr is to work with Government officials to understand how that reform will affect, obviously, operational delivery within Wales.

So, you don't know yet is the answer to that.

Yes. We don't know, no.

Okay.

Just how do you turn what the Welsh Government's aspirations are when it comes to apprenticeships into a reality? You made your opening remarks. I employ a few people; we don't do any apprenticeships, so I didn't have to declare an interest in any shape or form. But how do you actually turn into reality creating a dynamic apprenticeship network out there when we know there are challenges about getting employers involved, careers advice et cetera, which will be touched on in other parts of the questions session?

I'll pick that up. I think it's important to bear in mind that there are quite a few guiding documents from the Welsh Government that shape what we do. The apprenticeship policy statement is the key one, but that also takes into account the young person’s guarantee, the foundational economy strategy, the overarching programme for government, which, obviously, has the target for the number of apprenticeships. So, there are quite a lot of things to balance and try and fit together in that operationalising, as you say.

I think, taking the apprenticeship policy statement, the three objectives in that are around building resilience and sustainability, addressing the skills shortages and promoting inclusivity, and we can give examples against all of those. For example, in reviewing the frameworks, we’re making sure that digital skills and net zero are embedded considerations across the review of all those frameworks, which responds to that resilience and sustainability priority.

As we mentioned, we’re clear that our role as Medr is to respond to the priorities and skills that are set by the Welsh Government, but that close working relationship with them is important, enabling us to understand that that is something that we can then use through how we steer our providers in what is delivered.

Pathways are a really important part of the work we’re doing. The creation of Medr is a massive opportunity for increasing that join-up and links between different types of provision that links entire education as well.

And then diversity is a strong priority for us, looking at what we can do to support learners from other backgrounds that aren’t well represented—disabled learners, for example. We’re working on that by, for example, putting more funding into supported apprenticeships, which help those with particular needs into work.

There are limits in what we can do at the moment under the current contract. It is a contract, therefore, we can’t radically change things. We can do some of those things at the moment but maybe not as much as we would perhaps like. So, the new programme that will be coming in from 2027 is going to be a really big opportunity for addressing those issues. We’re starting a programme of work now to look at what that new programme should look like, and we’ll be doing that in consultation and collaboration with many stakeholders, providers, employers, industry bodies, government across the piece. We’re planning a big piece of consultation, and we hope that new programme is going to make us more flexible to enable us to, perhaps, respond more to those industry needs during the course of the life scale of that new programme: manage distribution between sectors; encourage collaboration to avoid duplication, which is another key strategic aim of Medr; and work out how we can perhaps do that better in the future, recognising some of the limitations that there are currently.

Thank you for that answer. Jenny.

Looking at the strategic overview, I'm just a bit concerned that you've yet to mention anything around green skills or the net-zero challenge, nor, indeed, does the Welsh Government paper that was published last February. So, where does this fit with the climate emergency and the ambition that we might have to meet our climate change net zero by 2035, as outlined by Jane Davidson? How does it fit in with all of that?

In reviewing the frameworks, which I think we'll come on to later, net zero/green skills is an embedded consideration across all of the frameworks—looking at where frameworks, which, arguably, might have been developed several years ago before it was quite such a priority, need updating to reflect that. And then also looking at other ways of bringing in those green skills to what learners are able to do through other qualifications that perhaps are add-ons to the apprenticeship framework, and that's where Medr's role to join up across the piece I think comes in, in that we can bring together the different pieces of the tertiary sector. It's not necessarily just the apprenticeship; it could be other ways of filling those needs.

Thank you for that. So, that's a core part of your job, basically?

Yes.

Just finally on this section, how do the regional skills partnerships interact with you and how important are they to, obviously, driving what you want to achieve in the field of apprenticeships?

I'll take this one, Chair. They're a really close working partner of ours as an organisation and, actually, we have not a memorandum of understanding, but what we set out really early on was a set of guiding principles that sort of frame the relationship that we have with the regional skills partnerships. We're really clear that what we get from the regional skills partnerships is really important labour market intelligence that we get through their LMI reports, through their occupational trends analysis and, obviously, the three-year regional skills development plans that they put in place, and, actually, in terms of our development of our own operational plan, they're very much a key partner in terms of an organisation that needs to have a voice in terms of how we put that together.

We actually sit on the board of each of the regional skills partnerships, and actually that gives us a really important opportunity to have that engagement in turns of cross-industry discussion with, obviously, the employers, but also in terms of the education institutions that are, obviously, on those boards as well, and we also sit on the cluster groups that they have, which gives us an opportunity to really deep-dive into some of those industry areas.

Obviously, we understand there's an evolution in terms of the regional skills partnership structures in some areas where there is potentially, obviously, an evolving relationship with the CJCs in those areas. But they are a really important organisation that we work with, and also in terms of reflecting on the strength of our relationship with the Government, we are in conversations with the Government in terms of how they set the remit agenda for the regional skills partnerships and are there are things within that remit that would really help us as an organisation conduct our function, so a really key partner for us.

Thank you. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. If I could focus on the vocational qualifications review, which means I might be picking on Sharron a bit, just thinking about the actual steering group report that came out, there were a number of recommendations within that report. So, just keeping that in mind, how much progress do you think has been made against some of those recommendations?

Thank you for that. As you know, the vocational qualifications review was published in September 2023, and it contained 33 recommendations for a number of organisations, which included the Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and, as it was then, CTER, but now as it is, Medr.

The benefit of being an independent chair for such a review is that you are, of course, independent from those organisations who are providing evidence, so with that comes the attendant objectivity. The disadvantage is that when you walk away from the qualifications review, when the report is submitted, that is the end of your process, that is the end of your time with the qualifications review process. So, my view on the recommendations is based on my observations, just to make that absolutely clear. I think there's been some good progress in many areas. I know, for example, that Qualifications Wales have implemented a number of recommendations in terms of the sector review groups, 14-16 clarity, and research is being undertaken on a number of other recommendations, including on work-based learning and a generic qualification for work-based learning, which is really important and came through very, very strongly in the review.

In a statement last April, the Welsh Government accepted the recommendations that applied directly to them, and those included a number of what I'd call strategic positioning statements, and those have been implemented—so, accepting the principles and purposes of vocational qualifications, including definitions around made-for-Wales qualifications, retaining an open market for qualifications, vocational qualifications and the approach to T-levels. So, those have already been accepted and implemented. I would say, though, that I think there's been slower progress on some of the particularly important recommendations, and those would include a vocational educational strategy that is congruent with the 14-16 curriculum and which forms part of a wider strategy for post-16 education—not a vocational strategy in isolation, but part of a whole. I think we need to make progress there.

I think recommendations 3 and 4, which surround commissioning work on future skills, would help both inform curriculum development and curricula that are offered by providers to make sure that we are delivering what our employers, the economy and our society need. I think there needs to be progress on the statutory guidance for 16 to 19 provision, and I also think a really important recommendation where we need to make some progress is how we can find more innovative ways of delivering the curriculum in parts of Wales that are perhaps sometimes harder to reach from a learner perspective. So, mixed progress, some really good progress in many areas, but I'd like to see a bit more progress in some other areas.

So, what do you think some of the barriers have been to progress in those areas so far?

That's a difficult one for me to answer, again, not having been part of the process. They're big topics, don't get me wrong. They are big topics and they require a lot of work in order to get these things right, but I think it's time that we just see some action now on some of these things.

I hope we're not being unfair, just coming to Medr for a second, in terms of some of those potential barriers, then, to progressing some of those recommendations—how do you see those barriers? What are those barriers, essentially?

From our perspective, particularly the recommendation on the vocational education and training skills strategy, I think there's still a debate in terms of what that is. Is it a strategy purely for vocational education and training, or are we talking about a skills strategy that really recognises the priorities that Welsh Government want to set, and, obviously, thinking about, then, the alignment with the UK Government in terms of their industrial strategy activity? For us, interestingly, in terms of being able to deliver our work, that is a key requirement. We are there to respond to Welsh Government skills priorities, and if we don't have that clarified, that's quite a challenging position for us as an organisation.

There is a need for a conversation in Welsh Government to happen before you can progress, essentially. 

But we know that conversation is a very live conversation. We're obviously part of those conversations, we know there have been several workshops that have taken place within a Government context, some of those that we have been involved with. So, we know it's an evolving process, and, as I said, because of the good relationship that we have with those officials, we are part of those conversations.

That's really helpful, thank you. If I could move to another question that I had, and it links a bit to a report that Hefin David has done. It's about specific access to post-16 learners for providers of education. There were some examples where good practice is happening, I believe, in Hefin's report. He mentions some of the practice happening in Caerphilly. Are there any other areas of good practice and where are the areas of bad practice, essentially, where this isn't happening, where access to post-16 learners isn't as easy as it might be in other areas? If I could come to Sharron on that.

Thank you. The evidence that the vocational qualifications review found was exactly the same as in Dr Hefin David's report, and also the same as Estyn found in their report back in 2022. There are some really good areas of good practice, and I would say that they're dispersed across Wales, that they're not in one particular area. You see some excellent examples of collaboration, with Careers Wales, colleges, schools, work-based learning providers coming together to showcase various options, very often from a really early age, and frequently from year 9 in schools as well, where year 9 pupils come into colleges or work-based learning providers and they have taster days to enable them to sample what it's like in a post-16 environment. There are some great examples where a school prospectus for sixth form includes vocational options, so there are some really good practices going on.

It's inconsistent—I think that was the message that came through to us. It is inconsistent, and I wouldn't say that there is one area that we would point to where there is not good practice. But there's good practice and not such good practice dispersed throughout the country.

So, what would need to be done, then, to make it a bit more consistent?

Well, it's interesting in that the Welsh Government response to this particular recommendation was that they don't have the statutory powers to enable some of the recommendations to happen as we would have liked them to. But what they can do is to issue statutory guidance on 16 to 19, and they have already issued statutory guidance on 14 to 16, which will help with that transition process. So, with those two things, I would hope that that transition process will be more open and that learners would get access to understanding all of the routes that are available to them, but we need the next part of the jigsaw, which is that 16 to 19 statutory guidance as well.

Great, thank you. Very helpful. Just one final question from me, Chair, if that's okay. Just to give you an opportunity, Sharron, in terms of the report itself, is there anything that you'd want to draw the committee's attention to in particular, when it comes to the recommendations and in relation to this inquiry?

Yes. I think, as far as the report is concerned, a number of key strategic messages came through, which have been implemented, and that's really good to see. The two key points for me would be those that we've already alluded to, which are getting that vocational education strategy and making sure that it sits within the context of post-16 education, so that learners don’t think there's only one route or the other that they can choose—they can move linearly, they can move horizontally, whichever way suits their career path and suits the economy and, of course, their choice. So, it's matching all of that together. So, it's getting that strategy right, and in the report we did include what we felt should be included within that strategy. So, it's not just about what skills we require, it's about how we deliver those skills. So, that's the one point.

My second point would be, then, getting that overall skills picture. We've got really good information from regional skills partnerships; we need to bring that together at national level, we need to identify whether we're actually achieving the targets that we set ourselves and to see whether we're actually making a difference. So, those are the key recommendations that I would say we need to make some progress on.

Okay. Great. Diolch yn fawr. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Hefin David.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Can I ask Sharron Lusher, I understand that, in the budget, £1.6 million has been allocated to implement the recommendations of both your report and my report. Has the Welsh Government been in touch to say how they're going to do that?

Do you mean in touch with me directly?

There's a £1.6 million allocation to implementing the vocational qualifications review report and my report. Have they mentioned this to you?

No, they haven't.

No, nor me. Nor me. That's interesting. Okay. It would've been nice to have some consultation and discussion on that, but there we are.

Okay. So, let me just move to—just a second, sorry—apprenticeships. Sorry, my computer is not behaving. Two seconds. Yes, just to move to the apprenticeship pathways. The apprenticeship pathway review of all 23 apprenticeship frameworks—how are you going to ensure that that, then, has a degree of vertical integration with higher apprenticeships and foundational at the bottom end? And that's to Medr.

I'll start. It's my team who'll be leading this work—

Oh, sorry. Sorry.

The first thing to say is that we recognise that the frameworks, as they are, probably haven't been reviewed as frequently as they might have been in the past, and that's why it's a priority of ours to address that and look at those questions. And we've published the programme of how we're going to do that over the next three years. A key theme of all those reviews—again something that we will take into account for each framework—is that vertical progression route between them, making sure that there is join-up between the different levels of apprenticeships. We recognise that it's not a one-size-fits-all solution for that; not every profession, every career needs an apprenticeship at every level. It might not be that you need an apprenticeship at every level, it might be that you need some other kinds of qualifications in different places on some of those, and that, again, is the opportunity of Medr working across the piece to look at where the jigsaw pieces come together.

We're making sure that those reviews are informed by employer need. There will be an advisory group for each review, which brings together stakeholders, including employers, so understanding what the employer needs in those areas to look at how that's then embedded into the frameworks. We're looking at where there are frameworks that might need reviewing more frequently because of skills needs changing, but also how you reflect that within a framework so that you're not fixed to something that very quickly goes out of date—whether we can frame that in a way that means we get a bit more flexibility within those frameworks. There are good examples, I think, already of where there are quite good progression pathways—digital or engineering in particular, where there are routes all the way through from level 2 right up to degree apprenticeships.

When we come to degree apprenticeships, we’ve got to be realistic about the amount of funding that’s available for supporting those, and I think that’s why there has been a focus on the areas where those higher level, degree level skills delivered through degree apprenticeships are, in the areas where they deliver the most value for the economy—so, engineering, advanced manufacturing, digital, and now construction. It’s not necessarily appropriate that it would be a degree apprenticeship that is the solution in lots of other professions; there is provision of other kinds. So, it’s thinking about that, as I say, jigsaw puzzle, and that it’s not just about apprenticeships, it’s about everything that comes together.

There are a couple of things there that I’d like to just follow up on. First of all, you’ve recognised that the funding of degree apprenticeships limits the availability of them. Do you not think it’s time to have a very honest conversation about how we fund degree apprenticeships and the fact that the Welsh Government shouldn’t be picking up the majority of the bill? What role do you think students and employers should play in paying for degree apprenticeships?

Obviously, your report looked at that in quite a lot of depth. There are a lot of questions there to consider. There is an important question, I think, about, ‘What is an apprenticeship versus what is a degree?’, and how that all fits together and whether we can call something an apprenticeship if it’s funded in a different way. They are questions that are on the radar of Medr as we think about our future funding strategy. At the moment, we are in a period of transition, reflecting on where we’ve been. We’re not quite yet in a position to be able to move into something that is radically different. But that’s the sort of question that we can consider. We also need to bear in mind what’s happening in England. If there are changes to the levy and how that might operate, that will have an impact on what the answer is to that question. It’s something that needs a debate, but I’m not sure we’re quite ready to have it yet.

Yes, if we don’t know what’s happening with the levy, employers will say, ‘Why should we pay for degree apprenticeships when we’re already paying a levy?’, which in Wales appears to be a tax to me. And students will push back against paying for degree apprenticeships. Although, there is an argument to say, if the academic qualifications have to be paid for by students, why shouldn’t degree apprenticeships? Would you be venturing into that debate at all?

I think that’s part of a wider question about the overall sustainability of the higher education sector as well. There’s a much bigger debate there. I come back to my point about, ‘What’s an apprenticeship versus what’s something else and why we might call it a degree apprenticeship?' There is clearly a difference, and there’s a reason for offering them.

Okay. I won’t press you any further on that, because that’s probably as far as you’ll be able to go at the moment. One of the things we need to be able to see is—. I notice that junior apprenticeships are coming to the fore at the moment, but we need to be able to see those students at that early stage, at age 11 and 12, being able to foresee their future pathways. Will the review of the 23 apprenticeship frameworks make that more likely? And if so, how will that happen?

Do you want to pick up on junior apprenticeships particularly?

Yes, I’ll just pick up on the junior apprenticeship point to start with, and just to sort of clarify, I guess, that a junior apprenticeship, ironically, is not an apprenticeship, it is a form of vocational education and training within the 14 to 16 education system. The policy driver, interestingly, behind the junior apprenticeship programme is about participation. It is targeting those individuals who are on the verge of disengaging from mainstream curriculum education. By using a more vocationally orientated programme of learning, we are looking to keep those learners in the system. The programme is quite small at the moment—it’s only delivered in five local authority areas, five further education colleges involved, about 150 learners—but actually the impact that the programme is having on those individuals is quite substantial. Estyn did a really helpful review of the junior apprenticeship programme for us in Welsh Government back in May 2024. It looked at the success impact in terms of participation and keeping those learners in the education system. But interestingly, when you looked at the learner progression data—and I know obviously the committee’s quite interested in understanding progression of those individuals into apprenticeships—the success of the programme actually is keeping those individuals and progressing into mainstream further education and training, so they are progressing into more vocationally orientated education within a further education college post 16. That is a success for a group of individuals that we were on the verge of losing from the education system.

In terms of thinking about how the apprenticeship framework review will think about the opportunities for those younger learners, I think what we really need to think about is the opportunities within Curriculum for Wales, and particularly that careers and work-related experience pillar. That is there to really invigorate our learners, to get them to understand industry opportunities. It's a challenge for our education system, in terms of asking teachers to take that on, but this is where we need really strong active partnerships between the education system, industry and business to be able to really realise that opportunity.

That's really helpful. And with regard to the apprenticeship framework review—and I agree with you, Rhian, you're absolutely right—with regard to the 2023 apprenticeship review and the role of employers, one of the things I've found, and, no doubt, given that Ben Cottam was on Sharron Lusher's inquiry, was that employers said that the lag between the design, implementation and outcome of courses is so long—the CBI actually said this to me—that employers tend to not engage too much with qualification design. How is Medr going to get around that issue of engaging with employers and ensuring that they can see the review working for them and the outcomes being tangible to employers? How is that going to be tackled? 

I think it's important, probably, to stress that the responsibility for qualifications that sit within the apprenticeship framework sits with Qualifications Wales, and that's where Medr’s close relationship working with Qualifications Wales is important, but we don't actually have responsibility for that design. Our review of frameworks, as I say, we're going to have a stakeholder group for every framework, which will involve a range of employers. I think it's important that we make sure we get different employers' voices in that room, that it's not just a small number of employers. That's not going to be easy, it's always difficult, and employers have got other things to be involved in, so getting them engaged is going to be a challenge, but I think it's important for us to be able to demonstrate to those employers the value to them that can help to address some of those things.

It's also the point I was making earlier about flexibility, that we need to make sure the frameworks are designed in such a way that they're not set in stone, or they're not recognising the need at a single point in time, given that those needs are going to be changing. The green agenda is a big area where technologies are developing, so the exact skills that you might need right now are not going to be the skills you're going to need in nine months’ time. So, it's how you take that up a level and think about frameworks in a way that means you don't have to be completely changing the frameworks every six months, because that, equally, is not helpful; that's not a robust approach.

So, we've got to bring all those pieces together, and it is recognising that employer need is going to be a key driver for that, so we need the employers to engage with us to help us do that.

And I'm not convinced that's going to be easy, given the evidence we've gathered. Okay. I could go on for much longer, but I'm going to have to stop now to give other people a chance.

Thank you, Hefin. Jenny.

Okay. I'm going to look at the potential barriers for apprentices, but I want to start with: employers pay an apprenticeship levy—what happens to it? Have you had a chance to have a look at that? Where is this money that Wales is eligible for?

I mean, effectively, it's Barnettised. It's within the Barnett formula, so it's very difficult to be able to numerically define it within the context of the overall budget.

Well, surely we need to know how much money is being generated by Welsh employers and is this money coming back to us.

It hasn't been pre-defined since 2019. In 2019, there was a decision to put it directly into the Barnett formula, so we don't actually see the individual amount.

Well—.

I think that's a question for Welsh Government rather than Medr, as well, I would say. 

Okay. But, in your work, Harriet, about who's going to pay for apprenticeships and how does that link in with other types of tertiary education—. You know, what Joe Public will think is: they pay the apprenticeship levy—where is it?

Obviously, we have a substantial budget. The Welsh Government obviously put into the apprenticeship programme every year, so we have a budget this year of £144 million, a financial year budget, which is a significant contribution from, obviously, the skills department. Our job at Medr is to maximise the innovation and use of that budget to ensure that we are delivering upon the skills priorities that are set out by Government, and, obviously, working with our providers to respond to local, regional and national employer need. 

Okay, thank you. Well, that's—. That is—. We'll go with that answer for now.

Okay. So, you said there are only five local areas who are doing this targeted—

For junior apprenticeships. That's a very, very small programme in terms of the mainstream programme—

Okay. Why only five areas, when there must be people who are in danger of falling out of the system altogether in all parts of Wales? When you say 'local areas', are we talking local authorities?

Yes, we're talking local authorities.

Five local authorities. 

Yes. I'm just talking purely about the junior apprenticeship programme.

Okay, I understand that. I assume that somebody—. It's known which these five are, is it? 

Yes, and obviously we can provide that in written information—

It's in the briefing note.

So—. There's a lot of cooks in constructing this broth. But, looking at it from the perspective of the learner, how do you engage all those who are in, if you like—? There are all the schools and colleges, who need to ensure that every learner has a pathway. How do we know whether what's needed for the individual—and, as I think Sharron said, the individual, society and the employer—? It's a really complex field, but we need to ensure we have nobody as not in education, employment or training. That's our ambition. So, what's your role in ensuring that everybody has the dignity of work in due course, and that the pathways exist for people to move into the career choice that they make, in line with their skills? 

In terms of the extent of the availability of pathways, that is a key part of our framework review process, in terms of ensuring that there are clear pathways for individuals. As Harriet said, we've got some really good examples of where that's working well. I think it's really important to note that pathways aren't necessarily linear and that's something that we really need to work on as Medr, that we need a tertiary education system that provides for education for individuals at whatever point they are within their life. So, it might be that they drop in and drop out, depending on, obviously, their needs at any given time. That's really, really important. 

I think part of the work that we're doing is to get that clear picture in terms of the geography and the application of those pathways, because, even though they might be available theoretically, in terms of programmes of learning, we need to make sure that they are being picked up at a local level and actually being delivered by our education providers. 

Okay, so that's your role, is it? Let me just perhaps explain that I chair the Equality and Social Justice Committee and we've taken a lot of evidence in relation to disability and employment. We haven't yet reported, so there aren't any recommendations there at the moment, but the evidence we've heard is that people with disabilities—. It's a huge range, but society is not serving disabled communities well enough at the moment. So, I'm obviously keen to understand how we're going to tighten the system so that education, the schools, the colleges and the work placements, the destinations in employment, are being much better streamlined so that individuals don't fall through the gaps, because it's really devastating what's happening at the moment, which is people are just not—. Our level of non-employment in society is just not good enough. 

So, if I can pick that up, Chair, particularly from the perspective of apprenticeships, we have various schemes within the wider apprenticeship programme that support disabled learners into apprenticeships. So, there's the employer incentive scheme, where employers can claim up to £2,000 per learner for the additional support that a disabled learner might need in the workplace. That can be personal additional assistance or it can be technological. We've had 489 learners supported through that since it was introduced, I think, in 2021. That's probably not enough. We need to do more to raise the awareness of employers that this funding is available, that they can access it. 

We also have supported apprenticeships that provide intensive support for those learners who find it most difficult to access employment, and there is growing demand for that. There is currently a waiting list to access that, so we're looking at where we can put additional funding into those supported apprenticeships to try and reduce that waiting list. And I think we are seeing gradual improvement. The numbers of apprentices who declare a disability is gradually increasing, not as fast as we perhaps might like it to be, but we have seen a gradual increase of that over the time of the programme. 

Okay. We could have a whole session on all that, but, just focusing on the pathways into the appropriate skills people need to get decent work, work experience in schools—. Disabled people aren't even considered, in many cases, for work experience; they're the ones left behind when everybody else goes out on work experience. So, what's your role in ensuring that every student has the opportunity for work experience? It wouldn't necessarily need to be a particular week in the year—there's got be a range of ways in which we engage people in the world of work.

Obviously, just to remind the committee, our scope is post-16, so, in terms of work experience within a school setting—

Fair enough. Okay. Fair enough.

—that doesn't sit with us; obviously, that sits with Careers Wales. What I can give a sense for the committee on is the importance that we place on work experience within a post-16 setting. And, actually, Hefin, your report very much featured heavily on this, and, as a result of the report, we as an organisation took forward that recommendation and we've put in additional funding that sits alongside the funding of full-time further education, for example, within our further education colleges, to ensure that those institutions can add on work experience programme activity alongside the full-time programme. And for academic year 2024-25, we're expecting about just under £1 million to be spent on that. The important thing for us, though, is that we have not made that a compulsory requirement—we have left that as a discretionary element to institutions, the reason being that we have a challenge in Wales in terms of the potential availability of those placements. And interestingly, if you look across the border at England, in terms of some of their qualification reform and T-levels, where they made the work experience placement a mandatory part of the qualification, they have had to spend millions of pounds in terms of incentivising employers to actually provide those experiences. So, we're not in a place where we intend to push that in terms of a compulsory opportunity, but this is where, again, going back to pre-16, we really need to realise the opportunities of the Curriculum for Wales.

Okay. I should have said, 'After year 11'. There's great work going on—exemplary examples, like ColegauCymru, like Bridgend College, which a lot of my constituents attend. But how do we join up the dots, to ensure that whatever skills have been obtained in college then don't lead to the student simply sitting at home?

This comes back to impartial advice and then guidance. This is about real collaboration that is needed between the pre-16 education system, the post-16 education system, local authorities, institutions like Careers Wales and ourselves, really trying to address this problem. Because, as the committee has already mentioned, participation is one of our biggest issues for our young people in Wales today.

Okay.

Hefin, I think your supplementary was answered, because you were shaking profusely to say 'yes' to what Rhian said.

I just want to endorse what Rhian said, and also to say, on a more positive note, it's not just about resource with work experience. A targeted and tailored work experience for those who want it was also identified as the right approach. So, just having a blanket approach to work experience isn't necessarily the most effective way of doing it, I would say. I'm sure Rhian would agree with that.

Okay. That's a statement, and it will be noted, and I think you agree with it—am I right in saying that?

Yes. I nodded 'yes', so, yes. I should have actually said 'yes', sorry.

Just for the timings. Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm going to focus around economic needs. Estyn has reported that there is no published national analysis of trends in the offer and take-up of vocational courses set against the context of the needs of the labour market and the wider economy. I'm just wondering, panel, about your views on this. Is that lack of data really an issue in being able to have apprenticeships deliver for our economic need? I'm not sure who wants to pick up on that first.

I'm happy to pick it up from Medr's perspective, and I'm quite sure you will have a view on this.

Yes.

We agree there's a gap in terms of bringing that together as a really cohesive national picture. I mentioned earlier that we do a lot of work with the regional skills partnerships in terms of using their labour market intelligence at a regional level to help us pivot our programmes in the direction of regional need. But what we do need is more of a national picture, and, particularly, a longer term picture. We need to be thinking about what that trends analysis looks like over five, 10, 15 years, so we can really start thinking, particularly as a funder and regulator, how we provide, then, that oversight to the tertiary education system, to make sure it is responding to those needs.

We know, in terms of thinking about climate change, the green skills agenda, that we have some major infrastructure programmes ahead of us, that we have a significant pipeline of skills requirements, and we need to ensure, again, that the education system is pointing in that direction. We know it was a recommendation from the vocational qualification review. Our work, in terms of collaboration and coherence, will be really important here in trying to bring the information and data that we hold together, but there is probably a gap currently, in terms of having that true national picture.

I think the other thing, in terms of activity over the border, is the role that Skills England will play here. Obviously, their name isn't particularly helpful, but if they are intending to have a UK function in terms of bringing together that longer term labour market intelligence, building off the work of the Unit for Future Skills, for example, that will be interesting, in terms of how then we in Wales can benefit from that information.

I would agree with Rhian entirely on this one. We need to have that overall picture of what we need for the future and whether we're getting there. We need to be able to evaluate one against the other to make sure that we're making progress. Speaking now as a former principal, what we have to be very careful about is, to go back to the comments earlier, we have to make sure that the curriculum is balanced so that within each individual provider we're making sure that we are meeting the needs of the economy, meeting the needs of society, but also meeting the needs of that learner for whom, actually, it's a real achievement just to walk in to a learning place again. So, we've got to be able to have that national trend, but make sure that we balance the requirements appropriately. I won't apologise for coming back to it again, but that's why we need the vocational education strategy and the overall post-16 strategy so we can get those balances of curriculum provision right.

That's a really helpful analysis. Rhian, you mentioned there that national picture gap, and one question that I've raised before is the job readiness of apprenticeships so that those individuals going through an apprenticeship are fulfilling the needs required by the employer on day one, pretty much, so there isn't more upskilling that needs to be done by the employer supplementary to the apprenticeship that they're learning as well. So, are apprenticeships in Wales meeting the economic need and skills gap currently? I know you mentioned that national picture gap, but in terms of skill gaps and today's economy, are Welsh apprenticeships delivering for employers and the economy?

I'll take this one. Our providers are seeing real sustained demand for apprenticeships. From our perspective, they are really a truly recognised and valued type of skills provision for our employers. I think what's really important to remember, though, is that the apprenticeship programme is not the only way that we service the skills requirements of our economy in Wales. We have a really broad education system offer, and the employability provision that sits within Government that responds to that. We are seeing the programme really servicing the needs of some industry sectors. I think there are challenges in others. For example, in social care, we do not have great outcomes in terms of the apprenticeship programme currently. We have great start figures, but we do not have great outcomes. That is something we are really looking at in terms of is that type of intervention really what that industry needs. 

I think the other thing that we need to remember is the apprenticeship programme is really stretched in terms of the policy direction that it is trying to fulfil. Currently, it is trying to respond to the apprenticeship policy statement, and particularly pointing to the ambitions of the First Minister around climate change and net zero, but it's also there to support the young person's guarantee, it is there to support higher level skills requirements, it is there to support the foundational economy strategy, we've got individual sector strategy plans where the apprenticeships feature really heavily. So, you have a programme that is trying to point in lots of different directions, and that is something that we are trying to think about in terms of the future programme: what do we truly mean by an apprenticeship, and where does that really carry value in terms of responding to the skills requirements of industry across the board.

Just to come back in there quickly, is the simplification of that a benefit? Is it too simple to say that, actually, just one direction would be better? Is that wide breadth of where apprenticeships are trying to tap into, as you explained, to the detriment of the learner and our economy?

I don't believe it's to the detriment of the learner and our economy. I think we've got a programme that is trying to service too many needs, currently, which places a challenge on the budget. I think we need to really think about skills as a skills system as opposed to at a programme level. We have terrible habit in Wales of thinking about skills at a programme level. We really need to be thinking about what the system response is here, and obviously that's part of the conversation that we're having with Government in terms of thinking about the future programme and how does that align. Harriet used the term 'jigsaw', which I quite like. We have to think about the jigsaw pieces that fit together as a system.

Thank you. Sharron, do you have anything to add?

Again, I would endorse that entirely. From the vocational qualifications review, one of the things that we found is that employers very often wanted a short, sharp burst of learning for one of their employees, or a number of their employees, not a full apprenticeship programme. So, how do we actually deliver that short, sharp unit of a qualification rather than a whole apprenticeship? It’s a skills suite, isn’t it? There are lots of different types of qualifications that make up the skills suite, and I think what we need to be clear about is what the progression routes are and what the opportunities are, so that employers can pick up on these quite simply, and that we’ve got some sort of route-map for employers to say, ‘That’s the bit that I need, how do we get it?’

Can I just add to that? The other thing that we need to always consider is employers need to get better at identifying their own requirements. That is always a challenge in terms of really being able to articulate what their future needs are, particularly when you’re talking about small and medium enterprises. They’re not great at workforce planning, in terms of medium to long term, and that creates a challenge in terms of really having that understanding of what those employer needs are.

That’s quite helpful, because in west Wales, we know the benefits of apprenticeships, with Valero, the oil refinery, and in north Wales there's Airbus. But those big employers aren’t everywhere in Wales, so accessing apprenticeships in SMEs—plumbers, builders, et cetera—and making sure the employers know what they need is a fair point.

Finally, the Welsh economy is in a state of flux at the moment, with the announcement of the Ynys Môn free port today, the Celtic free port, changes in energy production, the potentials around hydrogen, new technologies. Are we flexible enough to respond quickly to the  changing needs of the economy?

I think we’ve touched on some of this already. We need to think better about how we make apprenticeship frameworks more flexible, but it’s also part of what is the overall offer and how we might be able to put those pieces together. There are limitations in the current legal framework for apprenticeships in terms of the overarching guidance, the SASW guidance. That can only be changed by going through the Senedd. There will be new legislation coming in in 2027, which will hopefully be more flexible, so we are looking to something that is going to enable that greater flexibility.

I’ve touched on how, in the review of the frameworks, we’re hoping to be able to think about things that are at a slightly higher level, not quite so fixed in a particular moment in time, whilst still making sure they’re robust. We’ve got the opportunity to introduce new frameworks where we need them as well, and part of Medr’s role is that oversight of the framework as a whole—can we put in microcredentials, can we use our personal learning account programme to put those pieces together. Electricians are a great example where there’s core learning, but then there’s the extra bits you might need to serve renewable energy, for example. It's about putting those pieces together and having those other things that are more flexible and can change as those technologies evolve.

Do you have anything to add, Sharon or Rhian? No. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. 

Thank you, Sam. The final section—and I appreciate the clock is nearly beating us—Hefin, and then Jenny. 

I thought—

Well, depending on which way you want to take it. 

Yes, on employers. I touched on this—. Sorry, Chair, were you saying something?

Yes, Jenny's going first, and then you, Hefin. Sorry, I introduced you the wrong way round. My apologies for that. 

Looking at specifics, how much are you engaged with some of the strategic potential employers in areas like offshore and floating wind, onshore wind, construction? How do you know where the gaps are in the skills base that they’re going to need to pull in, hopefully from Welsh citizens, rather than importing those skills from elsewhere?

I’m happy to pick this one up. Listening to employers is a key consideration for us as an organisation. As part of the development of our strategic plan—and Sharron has very helpfully supported the development of that—we had a dedicated session with employer representatives from across a number of industries, to be able to ensure that we had that employer view on the strategic ambitions that we were setting out within that plan.

Currently, as an organisation, it’s a really live question for us, in terms of our ongoing engagement—do we as an organisation put together an employer forum, for example, to give us that strategic input that would run alongside the existing work streams that we’ve already talked about in terms of framework reviews, and we would have that very agile engagement, or is it better for us to actually have those ongoing conversations with industry through existing infrastructure like the regional skills partnerships. That is something that we are really thinking about at the moment.

We’ve been really proactive in engaging with the cross-party groups, for example, across the number of thematic areas that are relevant to the scope of our activity. We had a really helpful conversation, for example, with the cross-party group for construction a couple of weeks ago—lots of questions for us as an organisation, very similar to today, in terms of how we intend to have a much more agile, responsive tertiary education system and an apprenticeship programme that responds to the needs of employers. Interestingly, we recognise that this is such an important issue that we are about to commission some research to really understand how we do more work effectively with the employer base in Wales, but importantly also how we can broaden the employer base that is actually engaging with the apprenticeship programme. So, we're taking that piece of work forward.

Importantly, though, I think that we need to remember that we fund education institutions and we have a very clear expectation on those education institutions that they have those relationships at a strategic level with businesses within their locality. We've got some really good examples with some of our big anchor employers—Airbus, ONS, the Celtic Manor group, for example—where they have very strong relationships with our providers, and so they get that labour market intelligence at a local level as well to inform that work. 

The other thing that we're doing is working really closely with the inward investment team within the Welsh Government to again think about what are those priority areas that are driving inward investment and then how do we ensure that we have a skills infrastructure that responds to those. It's a really core consideration for us as an organisation, and it's a very live debate for us at the moment in terms of the how, the mechanics around that. The last thing that we want to do, to be honest with you, is to have an employer forum that isn't clearly defined and doesn't really give value, not just for us but to the employers, who are actually giving up their time to get around the table.

You mentioned that SMEs are not good at workforce planning. Let's just take a specific, which is the retrofitting of everybody's homes. The construction industry in the housing sector is run by lots and lots of small companies, so what is your strategy for ensuring that all of these plumbers, electricians and all of the other skills are up to speed on how they're going to do these retrofits, otherwise they simply won't get the work, will they?

It's an interesting one for us in terms of what is our role as a funder and regulator of tertiary education in terms of having that direct communication with businesses. Our job is to make sure that we have a responsive and agile tertiary education system there to be able to respond to that evolving skills requirement from our businesses. 

Obviously you can't have thousands of meetings that are not relevant, it's really how are you going to say, 'These are the opportunities of the future. Do you know about x, y, z that is going to enable you to adapt your electrical or plumbing skills to fit solar panels?'

I guess that's a big part of the framework development review process, and also the relationship that we have with the broader economic development team as well within the Welsh Government—how are we using programmes such as Business Wales, et cetera, to make sure that they have the awareness of what is available within the tertiary education system so that, when businesses are going to them seeking development opportunities, they know how they can be referred. 

So, what's the outcome? When are you going to get some outcomes on this? Because these are really significant issues. 

In terms of the framework development programme—

Well, ensuring that small businesses know where to go and what's the time commitment to upskill.

That's a difficult question to answer. In terms of our strategic plan and some of the broader ambitions that we've set, those growth ambitions to have a really clear, coherent, agile tertiary education system, we have some of those growth agendas within a five-year period. We've set out some shorter term objectives—

That's very long term.

We've got shorter term objectives in there in terms of two years. 

I think I would say that our responsibility is making sure that the tertiary sector is able to serve those needs, and we know that there are lots of colleges that are doing that. They're the ones who go out and talk to the employers, work out what they need and are designing and putting together those short-term qualifications. So, I think a lot of that is already happening. There are those short, sharp qualifications available and we know that there is lots of good practice, as I say, about how the tertiary providers engage with the employers. 

Hefin, do you want the final word on this?

Yes, please. Just to come back to where we started, my recommendation 1 in my report is almost identical to recommendation 16 in Sharron Lusher's report. So, can I just ask that question? Do employers possibly hold the key to bringing access for FE into pre-16 schools? FE have a database and a bank of employers who are interested in engaging with education. Schools don't have that. Could that not be used as an opportunity, a kind of quid pro quo, so that schools would have access to that employer database, and therefore would invite FE colleges in in order to facilitate that? That doesn't happen at the moment, other than in pockets. I think that Neath Port Talbot Group of Colleges are quite good at it. Is that not an opportunity? Can I ask that to Sharron?

Yes, I guess that could be an opportunity. I think, in some cases, that does happen. I know in my former college that we used to work with all of the year 9 cohorts from the schools in the area, and we harnessed our employer database. Those employers came into the college for the day, and actually delivered a day's training to year 9 learners. So, I think that's something that really could happen. I think that's an area that could be considered as good practice, and I would hope that more colleges and local authorities were engaging in that process. I think it's got to be a two-way thing. I think schools have got to be prepared to release the learners from year 9 for the day, and colleges be prepared to share, but I think there are some areas of really good practice going on there.

I think there's an opportunity for Welsh Government to perhaps model that and upscale those good practice examples.

Thank you, Hefin. You've got agreement at the end of the session, and I'm sure you'll be pleased about that. Thank you for your evidence today, especially being in person. It's so much more helpful to the committee, obviously, to be able to put questions to you. There'll be a transcript of the Record sent over to your good selves, so that you can see what's actually been said in this session, and I look forward to obviously engaging with you in the future. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

We're now moving into private session, so that the new set of witnesses can come in for the next session. We'll begin at 10:40.

The green dot has come up, so that tells me we are now in public session again. Thank you to our new guests who've come in to join us today. I'll ask the two in the room to introduce themselves first, starting with Dr Barry Walters, and then I'll invite Lisa, who is joining us via Zoom, to introduce herself for the record, and then we'll go into questions and Members will ask questions individually of you. So, Dr Barry Walters, if you could for the record introduce yourself and your position, please.

Okay. My name's Barry Walters, I'm the principal of Pembrokeshire College, which is a contract holder for work-based learning apprenticeships, and I also chair the ColegauCymru strategic work-based learning and employability group.

Thank you.

Good morning, Grant Santos, chief exec of Educ8 Training Group. We're a work-based learning, independent training provider that delivers apprenticeships.

Lisa.

Good morning, Chair; good morning, committee. My name is Lisa Mytton, I'm the strategic director for NTFW, National Training Federation Wales.

Thank you very much. I'll open the questioning, if I may. In February of 2024, the Government issued a statement about what they expected in the field of apprenticeships here in Wales, and, obviously, Medr came into being in August of last year. I'd be keen to try and understand what your thoughts are on that statement. Do you have agreement with the objectives that the Welsh Government has set out, and, importantly, since August of last year, what is the relationship you have found yourself having with Medr? I'll go to Barry Walters first, if I may, and then I'll go through.

I don't think anybody can argue with the overarching objectives that are drafted within the apprenticeship policy. It's about building resilience and sustainability, it's about addressing skills shortages, and also being inclusive. I think those are what we would hope to see in such a document.

I do think there probably does have to be some further discussion about whether apprentices are going to be seen as the answer to all of our economic challenges, especially with an ever reducing budget. The policy statement does refer to a number of other Welsh Government policies and plans, and apprenticeships play an important part in delivering them. You've got your net-zero ambitions, the net-zero skills action plan, you've got your foundational economy, you've got the digital and advanced engineering, you've got supporting priority industries, and also, you've got developing the Welsh language skills of apprentices. So, all that, with the pressure of a reducing budget, when we also have increased costs of delivery, so I think teasing underneath the policy statements is worth a discussion.

Ultimately, what we—well, I'm speaking personally. What I believe as an apprenticeship provider is that the focus should all be about developing occupational competence, and that's what apprentices are there for. Whether Medr can deliver it, I think, ultimately, will come down to resource availability and how Medr copes with the different asks of the different sectors that it is now responsible for overseeing.

Thank you. Grant.

It's really positive to see in the statement that apprenticeships continue to be the cornerstone of education and training in Wales, so I absolutely agree with that. I welcome looking at how apprenticeships are integrated further into the education system, and I think that's part of the policy in terms of how we can have an integrated system and have progression in different areas. Obviously, that's going to be a big challenge for Medr in terms of what they do, overseeing the whole tertiary system.

I think one of the things that I absolutely agree with is being more responsive to employers. How can we adapt and be more responsive? One of the things I'd say is, in my view, or our view, the system needs to be more responsive. So, we are part of the system, as providers, but there's the whole system itself. We have to find a way to be more responsive to employers. So, if employers are looking for new occupations, new challenges, we have to find a way to meet those needs quickly and responsibly, and we need to be more agile to meet those needs.

I'll give you an example. We recently, last year, in collaboration with another organisation, developed a green energy management qualification. It took us twice as long to go through the approval and funding approval process than it did to actually create the qualification itself. And that's the system needing to be more agile. So, we can be more responsive, we can be more responsive to employers, but we have to find a way to get the system more responsive and working together to support what employers are looking for.

That was very helpful, that timeline you just offered us there, Grant. Lisa.

Yes. Just to add to what Barry and Grant have said, actually. The statement has clear objectives for improving apprenticeship programmes, but if we're to bring it a little bit forward and think about what that looks like now for the future, we need to ensure that we focus on underrepresented sectors and addressing skills shortages. And I think, just as Grant alluded to as well, streamlining the communication, really, between those key stakeholders, including employers, is absolutely imperative.

And then, just as a final note on engagement with Medr, well, I have to say that that's been very promising. We do have some members of the Medr team who have come along on the journey with us, from Welsh Government over to Medr, and that has been immensely helpful, I have to say. We are having regular meetings and feedback sessions with them and doing a lot of collaborative work as well.

And I think then, just as a final point, the apprenticeship statement, moving forward Government policy, the apprenticeships, we can do this together to meet Government priorities and to work together to align the apprenticeship programme with Government goals as well, Chair.

Okay, thank you. Sorry, Grant, yes.

Can I just add on the second part of your question and what Lisa mentioned about Medr? I think there's been really positive engagement with Medr so far, a very positive relationship, a very respectful relationship. What's been helpful is that some of the individuals transitioned over to Medr from Government, so that's been really helpful. Yes, really positive so far. And actually thinking outside the box, thinking differently as well, which is refreshing and important.

Just before I bring you back in, Barry, just on your point about how it took twice as long to get the process done as it did to devise the scheme, have you got a suggestion for the committee as to how that process could be shortened? Because I don’t think anyone deliberately lengthens the process, they don't—

No, absolutely.

—but from your experience, how could it be shortened?

I think there are fairly simple ways that it can be, and hopefully, working closely with Medr, we can work together to find a way of doing that. So, it's finding a way of getting that new apprenticeship framework onto the specification of apprenticeship standards for Wales, and finding a way of getting the funding, then, applied to that framework. So, it's working collaboratively with all stakeholders to really effect that. The challenge for us is that if we can't do that in an agile and responsive way, we're going to lose credibility with employers. Employers are asking for something that then takes too long to deliver, and employers then will walk away, quite honestly. So, there are definitely ways that we can do it, and I think that collaboration between all the stakeholders is really important, and no doubt, we can shorten that timescale.

So, it can be done.

Yes, absolutely.

Barry.

First of all, I'd like to pick up on what Grant has just been talking about, because we've experienced the same with tourism, travel, hospitality and catering, which was first discussed post pandemic, as we were coming out of the pandemic, so, 2021-22. The first consultation was in March 2023 and the qualification will come out and come into operation in September 2027, meaning that the first apprentices to complete that qualification will be in 2029. So, just reinforcing your point that the timescale is too long. Because, in 2029, you've probably got to start reviewing it again.

But what I wanted to come back on, if I may, were the comments made about the relationship with Medr. I would totally agree: we have a really, really good relationship. And again, Grant, I think you're right; it's because we had good relationships with the Welsh Government officials who've moved into Medr since it's become operational. I know that Medr's director of development, investment and performance regularly attends the FE finance directors' meeting. Rhian came to our principals forum in October, along with the Minister for Further and Higher Education. So, there was good discussion between the Minister, Welsh Government officials, Medr and all the principals. So, that relationship is good. But, as I said earlier, I think how the relationship will develop in the longer term depends on how Medr deals with all the asks that come from the different sectors that it now has responsibility for—regulation, quality and financing.

You touched in your earlier response on resource. As a politician sitting this side of the desk, witnesses always talk about resource. Are you confident that the apprenticeship network is sufficiently resourced to achieve the goals of the statement? Again, I appreciate budgets change on an annual basis, but, on a general direction of travel, do you believe the resource is sufficient to meet the ambition?

I think we have to be honest and recognise that funding is being squeezed. It is tight at the moment. There are employers wanting starts and it’s not always possible to deliver the starts at the point in time they want them. Each contract holder will manage this differently. We’ve managed our way through it, but it is very much a case of working closely with your employers. Other contract holders may have a different experience. It is tough.

Lisa indicated first, then I'll come to you, Grant, if I may. Lisa.

Yes, Chair, thank you. Without really meaning to labour the point around budgets, et cetera, however, it is so important and I know there are some really critical questions that the committee want to ask today around the wider aspects of apprenticeship pathways. But, evidence that we’ve produced along with ColegauCymru showed that we will and have lost some really skilled staff. So, as an apprenticeship network, we’re there, we’re absolutely at the front of the game in wanting to deliver these apprenticeships to improve the Welsh economy, et cetera, but cuts last year and even the unintended consequences of a protected budget this year are still going to—. Some tough decisions are still going to have to be made just with regard to some of the staffing resources providers have. So, it does have an impact. That said, everybody is doing what they can really to mitigate that as much as possible. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. On this section, the last point, Grant.

Yes. I’d agree with what Barry and Lisa have said. We need more resource, more funding to support the ambition that’s outlined in the policy document. We also need a longer term resource plan as well so that we can see longer term, because I think it’s important. An annual commission is a challenge. Ideally, we would have a longer term commission where we can plan more strategically, work more strategically with employers about their plans, their growth plans and what they’re trying to do. So, yes, I think we need to see that additional resource, if we can.

Thank you, Grant. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I’m conscious that there are questions later on about apprenticeship pathways, but, just because Lisa raised a point there, I just wanted to ask one question, if I can, on that. NTFW and Colegau, obviously, jointly produced the report showing the effects of the cuts on the apprenticeship sector. When that was raised with the Minister, he disputed some of the data used in that report. I’m just wondering if there was a response there from Lisa. I can see she’s already indicating.

Diolch, Luke. Diolch, Chair. Yes, so, inevitably, the piece of research that we collaborated on gave a lot of data over a period of time. I think, in fairness to the Minister, the one aspect of data that he was alluding to, and made reference to it being over 10 years old, isn’t actually a fair representation of the data. What the data does is it shows the trend over 10 years of the impact on the number of starts of apprenticeships due to cuts, et cetera, and things like that. So, yes, it’s 10 years, but it’s 10 years’ worth of data to actually show a trend. I’m happy to share that report. We have shared it previously, but I'm happy to share that report, just to see what the impact of the 14 per cent cuts were last year, and, as I said, what perhaps some of those unintended impacts are of a protected budget. But, thank you, Luke—I’m glad we were able to clarify that.

Sorry to put you on the spot there, Lisa. I just thought there was an opportunity there to understand, from your perspective, the Minister’s comments.

But if I could come back to, actually, what the main body of my questions will be, and that’s around vocational qualifications, and in particular the review. We had Sharron Lusher on the previous panel, and I asked a question around the recommendations of the group and progress made against some of those recommendations. So, I'd really like to hear from this panel now what their view is on the progress made against some of those recommendations in the report. I'm not sure who would like to kick us off. I'll come to Barry, since he's closest to me.

Okay. Thank you. Well, since the publication of the report in 2023, I know that both the Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales have responded to the report's recommendations. Yes, progress towards these recommendations could be more timely, but I think you all have to bear in mind that you have just created a significant organisation in Medr, and I would imagine that a lot of the time, effort and focus has gone into Medr. There is some progress. Qualifications Wales have undertaken sector reviews, the review of 14-16 qualifications, et cetera, but the point being made is a fair one that it could be more timely.

We're waiting, obviously, for the Welsh Government to reveal the short, sharp, action-focused policy statement on post-16 education, with a particular emphasis on vocational education and training, which is the statement that they made last April in relation to the response to the vocational review. That statement came out about 10 months ago, so we look forward to seeing that and seeing some real progress. 

Grant.

I think the perception for us an organisation is that it's limited in terms of progress so far, but I think a lot of the work is going on behind the scenes and hasn't maybe reached the front end, if you like, in terms of those actions. There, obviously, were a number of areas in terms of awarding bodies, for example, in a Wales-made approach, which I think people are advocating. That's going to be a big part of the job for Qualifications Wales and Medr to look at. I'm conscious Medr has only been in place since August last year, but I know they are working behind the scenes with the Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales. So, for us on the ground, in terms of what we see, it's limited, but, hopefully, over the next year or two now, we'll start to see some traction and some of those actions come into play.

I was particularly interested in the statement within the review around Wales not having a strategy for vocational education and training, and that being a bit of a blind spot. So, it's a matter, essentially, with a strategy of waiting for the Welsh Government to indicate where it needs to go. I can see agreement from Lisa, but, Grant, did you want to come in on that? 

Yes. I think we wholeheartedly agree about the strategy and the vision in reality—the north star, isn't it? Where do see vocational training over the next five to 10 years? And without that vision—. There are so many stakeholders now involved in education and training that we need a vision to get everyone aligned to what we're trying to achieve, and I think that is lacking, absolutely, and we need that alignment. We need ambition with that vision, I think it's fair to say. You look at from school all the way through to higher education, there are lots of stakeholders involved with education, and we need to make sure that's all lined up. It talks about integration of the system. The February 2024 policy last year talked about integrating the system, bringing things together. Medr are now in charge of the tertiary education system. Lots of moving parts, which I think we need that vision so that we're all heading in the right direction, and providing employers and learners, ultimately—that's what we're here to do, learners—with that quality opportunity.

Lisa, can I come to you?

Yes. Just very briefly, Luke, for clarity, I did sit on that review with Sharron, so I had some further insight on that. I think that some of the recommendations have been implemented, albeit speed is of the essence. I think we could speed things up a little bit. But, look, for me, in a nutshell, for the Government, what we need is that overarching strategy for skills. Skills go across four portfolios. It would make Ministers, Cabinet Secretaries' lives and MSs' lives a lot of easier, I'm sure, as well as our civil servants, if we were able to have that overarching skills strategy, because that would align resources, address gaps effectively, and have co-ordinated approach, which is so important. So, moving forward, having a comprehensive strategy would provide clear direction and measurable goals for both the Government and providers who are presenting today. And, as I said, if you think about it, the golden thread for that strategy then would be Government priorities. So, it all sits neatly together and everybody has a clear vision of what we're aiming to achieve to reach all of those goals. So, that's my north star, Luke.

Yes. I'm hearing very clearly that it's the Welsh Government that needs to be taking this forward, yes.

In collaboration with Medr, absolutely.

In collaboration with Medr and stakeholders within the sector. Barry.

Just to add that ColegauCymru advocates strongly for a VET strategy as well—there's no doubt about it. And I think that the phrases have already been expressed: align everybody's efforts with a common goal, at the heart of which would be vocational qualifications, education and training in order to meet industry needs, in order to meet economic goals. So, it should all tie together.

Great. I'm conscious of time, Chair. Diolch.

Okay. Thank you. Hefin.

Thank you. I should declare an interest here, because, in another life, I supervised Grant Santos's MBA dissertation, and an excellent piece of work it was. It's worth just making that point.

In the view of the panel—. One of the things I found when I was researching some of this is that vocational providers, colleges and apprenticeship providers are often frustrated by the fact that they can't get access to learners pre 16 in order to give them an idea of what options might be available to them. So, some students are pushed on to A-level courses when, in fact, if they'd known earlier that an apprenticeship pathway may be more appropriate, they might have made a different choice. Can I ask the panel, is that their experience? What causes that, and how can we overcome it?

Okay, shall I—?

Yes, please. On each one, if we start with Barry and go through.

My first response to that is that, out of 32,000 school pupils in year 11, only 2 per cent went into apprenticeships, and I think there were about 11,000 year 13 pupils, and the percentage figure isn't much higher, at 2.5 per cent, maybe 2.7 per cent—I can't quite remember, but it is very, very low. And I think you've seen a number of reports—Estyn have undertaken a review of 14-16, post 16, and they reiterate the key point that comprehensive and impartial advice and guidance needs to be provided to 14 to 16-year-olds. Estyn’s report also highlighted the role of Careers Wales advisers and the need for well-prepared advisers, so, effectively, sort of challenging misconceptions that school pupils may have, and I can give you an example here. We went out to a school in Pembrokeshire to an open evening recently. There were a number of enquiries about apprenticeships. There were three specific ones that I recall. One was about plumbing, one was about welding, and one was about motor vehicles, and they want to become apprentices in September. And the response is, well, have you got an employer? They don't understand that they need to be in employment to be an apprentice. So, there is a challenge there. How do we overcome it? We've got to, and there's been a number—. I've mentioned Estyn, but in Sharron's review, as well, there were recommendations 15 and 16, which talked about the impartial advice and guidance that must be given to young people. That's what our goal has got to be, and if we can crack that, then young people will be better informed to make a decision that is in their best interests and in everybody's best interests, because the last thing that Medr want to be doing is funding a learner through a route that’s wrong for them.

In the development of my report, one of the things I found was that schools are desperate to get in touch with employers and use employers in the Curriculum for Wales, but they just can't get access. Further education colleges have a huge bank of contacts with employers. Is there not something that could be done in the way that NPTC and Llanidloes high have done, for example, in making sure that there's a benefit to schools from giving them access to that database and ensuring employers then are building into the Curriculum for Wales at year 9 to year 11? Is there not an opportunity to build some kind of quid pro quo in there?

I know that you have raised this with me before in one of these meetings previously, and I still would like you to come down to Pembrokeshire, and we can actually show you what we're doing down there.

That was the plan until the Government reshuffle. 

But if I can just highlight our situation. We've got 1,800 full-time students following FE courses. Last year, we actually got work placements for 580 of those 1,800 learners. Most of those, the majority of them were learners who were following courses such as health and social care and enhanced programmes, where it's a mandatory part of the programme that they have to have a work placement. So, we prioritise those areas and then whatever we can provide with our employment bureau, and whatever links we've got with employers, we then try to offer work placements to the remaining two thirds of our student community, and we just can't get enough. And I think part of it relates to the fact that, in Pembrokeshire, 95 per cent of businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises, of which 85 per cent of them are microbusinesses, and they just don't have the time or the resource to take on and invest in perhaps giving a work placement to young people. 

So, it is a massive problem for us and I'm not pretending it isn't, and we haven't got enough work placements to satisfy our own learners' needs. So, that's where we're at at the moment.    

I'm going to take you up on that offer. 

Hefin, I'm keen to ask Grant and Lisa to comment on the two points you've already made, so that they don't feel it's just a one-way conversation. So, Grant and then Lisa. 

Yes, no problem. I think our experience, Hefin, is that the relationship with schools is informal, it's ad hoc, it's sporadic. A lot of the time it's left up to the leadership in the school in terms of that relationship, which is a challenge. I've experienced a number of areas, where one school was looking at their apprentices actually going to work in Government Communications Headquarters, which is fantastic, and then other examples where schools see apprenticeships as being for the lower level, the disengaged, the disenfranchised, the people who are not academic and they can't actually achieve towards that. That is wrong in itself as well.

So, one of the challenges for us is that schools are measured on achievement, aren't they, the achievement of exams, qualifications, not on progression after school—you know, what happens to the learner, to the pupil when they leave school—and that's a challenge. So, I guess, what's the incentive there? I know that schools do have an incentive; they want people to achieve and be ready for the world of work. But I guess if we could find a way of getting some measure or some framework in there, in the school, because, for us, we've got access—.

You mentioned FE colleges, same as independent organisations. We've got access to lots of employers we work with on a daily basis, and they want to see individuals progressing in their businesses. It touches on the work experience element as well and, at the moment, work experience, in reality, is organised by the parents of pupils as opposed to schools. So, you've got a big proportion of youngsters that are not actually having work experience, so then how are they working out the choices in life? How are they looking at what choices and the career choices that they want in the future?

I think you go back to theme of collaboration and working together, and alignment of a pathway. For us, what would be absolutely fantastic—and we have seen it—would be learners coming out of schools, into an apprenticeship, and progressing all the way through from a level 2 to a level 5, and even on to a Master's degree qualification later. It can happen. We've got lots of examples of it happening, but they're too few and far between, and there's a real opportunity there to change that.

And—[Inaudible.] 

Hold on. I want to call Lisa in now, Hefin—

Just before we do that, can I just add an addendum to that question, which Lisa can respond to as well? I've recommended a tailored and meaningful work experience for those year 11 students, for example, who want it. So, it's not a set work experience for everyone. Grant, you've just, kind of, gone down that path with your answer. Lisa, would you agree then that that is the right way forward, that it's tailored, meaningful, but only for those who are appropriate for it? 

Yes, I think, look, it's twofold, Chair. I'll be as quick as I can because I know you've got a lot to get through, but thanks, Hefin, and they're discussions you and I have had over the last year following your report.

So, just very quickly on access, my colleagues have mentioned some of those barriers, but let's talk about some of the ways that we can change that. I think Estyn have a role to play. They could measure pre-16 settings' engagement with post-16 as part of their inspection framework. So, I think there's a role for Estyn to play there. I think that could be done and be helpful.

And then going back to meaningful work experience, that's critical in raising awareness of apprenticeship options. So, I think you're right, at that year 11 juncture, that is really important. But two things there for me are: let's not forget that in the new Curriculum for Wales we've got the CWREs, haven't we? We've got the career work-related experiences coming right through from primary, right through to secondary, which is fantastic. I hope we see a shift in that to having really meaningful work experience. But also as well, Hefin—you and I have had a chat about this—where is the tertiary model in the local authority? You mentioned Neath Port Talbot, Merthyr Tydfil, we have seen the partnerships with schools being much better, the engagement being much better. I can't endorse tertiary for the rest of Wales, but what I'm saying is that it's just evidence where it has worked.

And then, last but—

That's exactly right, isn't it? It's those pockets that need to be scaled up.

It breaks down those barriers there then.

And last but not least, I just had a presentation last week from the Cardiff Commitment. Gosh, I was blown away. It is a great example of real-life work experience for young people, and then that leading into apprenticeship opportunities, further education opportunities, et cetera. What I think we need to do as a Government is really think about how we can replicate that and have that equality across all 22 local authorities—use that again. We're talking about stars today, north stars, et cetera; let's use that as another star. It's great, so let's see if we can roll that out across all 22 local authorities. That would help us on this path.

I couldn't agree more with you on that. I've looked into the Cardiff Commitment too and it is very good. The answer is scaling up, isn't it?

Absolutely.

It's scaling up these things. That's okay from me, Cadeirydd.

Thank you, Hefin. Jenny.

Thank you. In the policy statement that the Government issued last February, they said that there are too few apprenticeships in areas of skills shortages that are acute, for example, IT and digital, renewables, decarbonisation and advanced engineering. So, while all these tectonic plates are being moved, what has been done to fill those acute gaps, which are all in areas that are absolutely strategic? And how will Medr's review of all 23 apprenticeship frameworks accelerate that, or simply hold it up?

Barry, if we start with you, and we'll do our usual routine of Grant and then Lisa.

Okay. Touching on the previous question, one of the things is, you have to make these young people aware of the opportunities in digital, in advanced manufacturing. So, one of the things that we've done internally is set up what we call 'expos'. And, basically, in different routes, we—. Let's pick on engineering because that was a really successful one. We had South Hook LNG, we had Dragon LNG, we had Valero, we had RWE, we had Blue Gem, the port of Milford Haven, and they all came in, and they all brought activities for young school pupils to get involved with, hands on. And it was about raising awareness. So, we ran it on a Saturday morning. We had 200 people come in. But what we need to do is to encourage the schools to release their pupils to come in to events like that, so they can be aware of the routes where there are jobs, where there are progression opportunities locally.

Clearly, there's a role for Estyn, and, indeed, school governors on that. But how is that great local initiative going to get—? Will it survive the upheaval of all these 23 frameworks?

Well, even the terminology there is a little bit misleading, because there are 23 apprenticeship routes or sectors, and, within those sectors, there are numerous frameworks. In fact, there are over 200 frameworks, of which some are not even attached to sectors. So, it's a massive challenge, because every framework review requires significant time, effort and input, research with employers. So, it is a huge task, but it does need to be done. We've already touched on the fact that some of these reviews have taken so long to produce a new framework, so something needs to help it shift along a little bit quicker.

Grant, how does it need to be done?

I don't think it's a start and an end process; it should be a continual process. Frameworks have got to evolve as the economy and technology evolve. If you look at AI, for example, we weren't talking about AI two or three years ago; now, that's all we talk about, isn't it? So, we have to find a way of getting the qualifications relevant and agile and quite fluid as well. So, it's important that the review takes place, but we have to find a way to continually review these frameworks, to make sure they're not just relevant today, but that they're relevant for the future as well.

You touched on digital skills as a gap. Recently, there's been a digital skills for business qualification apprenticeship framework developed, which is being really successfully rolled out at the moment, and that's plugging a gap that was there previously. So, there are some developments happening. The green energy management qualification that we developed last year, again, that's an example from the renewables side of things, in green energy management. So, there are things happening; we've just got to speed it up and find a way to speed it up and get the system working a little bit quicker, really.

Okay. So, Lisa, how do we speed up without all these different organisations collapsing under the stress of constant change, which is nevertheless required?

No, no, absolutely. It's happening as we speak. So, what we've done is we've met with the Medr team, just prior to Christmas. We've set up an overarching steering group alongside the 10 commission contract holders—so, colleagues in ColegauCymru and NTFW—and we've actually began the framework reviews and making sure that the frameworks are current industry needs, have opportunities for progression and integrate new skills, with emphasis, as you said, on some of those emerging industries as well, like digital and green technologies. So, it's started with our Medr colleagues.

Underneath that steering group, then, will be sector-specific framework groups. So, as we review it, what we've done, in the first instance, is looked at the timelines for review: what needs reviewing now, what needs review in 2025, 2026, et cetera. Some of those that were reviewed more recently, we can delay slightly, because they've already been done. But the work has already started in collaboration with Medr. And just making sure, really, that we map out clear progression routes as well, from lower to higher level apprenticeships. It is challenging, but it is essential that we do that. That does vary by sector, hence the sector-specific working groups beneath the overarching steering group. Because, for example, engineering has a well-defined pathway, whereas others require more clarity. And also what is working for Government priorities, economic needs within Wales, and looking at those frameworks. As Barry said, there's a lot within the routes of the actual frameworks beneath it: what's there, what's needed, and what do we need to develop? And going back to one of the very early points that Grant made: speed is of the essence. So, that work is under way, and I'm sure our Medr colleagues, along with ourselves and ColegauCymru, can come back and feed back progress on that to committee at some point.

Okay. So, you mention in your paper the challenge of getting employers to engage and take on apprenticeships, but that the evidence is that staff retention rates are much better when you've got employees in apprenticeship programmes, because they can see career progression going on. So, how do we improve on that, given that your colleagues in the room have just told us that, in many cases, the student isn't even aware that they've got to be in a job before they can do the apprenticeship?

Yes. So, I mean, employer engagement is variable across all of the different areas. Some sectors are highly engaged is what I would say; others, for want of a better word, perhaps lag behind a little bit. But I think it goes back to increasing awareness, and maybe some incentives for employers as well can enhance participation across all the frameworks and levels.

We are working with employers, we work with the Federation of Small Businesses, et cetera, when we look at the amount of SMEs that we have as well. So, there is good evidence of collaboration, but it can be better, and, as I said, we need to increase awareness with employers. We have some really great employers, and others, as I said, that we need to bring to the table as well. So, there's not an easy, quick, short, sharp answer for that, but there is some effective collaboration happening. But it needs to be better and across all stakeholders as well.

So, what are these incentives for employers that you envisage? For those who don't realise that they either change or die, what is it that's going to bring these people to the table?

Well, I think, from a Government perspective—again, this is twofold—there's a number of different barriers that happen across rural Wales—transport infrastructure, things like that. There needs to be, perhaps, some incentives for subsidised travel or remote learning options for both the potential apprentice and the employer. We can look at things like that as well. Incentive for employers—we've actually had, and it's still live at the moment, but the Government does have an incentive for employers to take on a disabled apprentice as well, so that they can have that additional enhancement and enrichment support.

But that's what we need to discuss, really—that would be an action for Government, Medr and stakeholders to think about what those incentives could actually look like in order to have further and better engagement with employers across the board, with SMEs. Without labouring the point, but with SMEs, that would need to look differently. I think it was Barry who mentioned SMEs previously, and that offer of support or incentive would need to be different, because it depends on the size of the business and just how much mentoring or availability they have in order to take on an apprentice.

Apprenticeship providers provide an immense amount of support themselves, which goes from doing the apprenticeship programme, alongside those extra enhancement support that they give as well. It really does go across the board—social help and things like that as well. But employer incentives is something we would need to discuss and take further, definitely.

Okay. Grant Santos, you wanted to come back in.

Yes, just touching on the difference employers and different sectors, you do have some employers, particularly if you look at an employer in health and social care as an example, the apprenticeship drives forward a qualification that individuals have to achieve to be compliant within that sector. So, the importance of that apprenticeship is really important for the employer, and they really bought into it and support it. Whereas, in some sectors, it's maybe not a mandatory requirement to undertake it, and it's part of the tools in the toolbox as part of the training development.

So, one of the key things for me, going back to the point earlier that you've got to give employers confidence that we can be agile and we can develop these frameworks pretty quickly and listen to what they're asking for—. During the review of the 23 frameworks, we have to get employers as part of that, and we do. Employers are part of that process because they should be shaping what skills that they want from their workforce. The Federation of Small Businesses, Confederation of British Industry, chambers—those kinds of organisations to work with are really important, because they represent a large group of employers, and there's a really good substance, then, of feedback that comes through as part of that process.

Medr mentioned that some of the social care apprenticeships haven't been successful in getting people placed. That's a really serious issue, given the way it's playing out. 

Absolutely, it's a challenge.

So, what action has been taken to ensure that those health boards that have a much more localised focus on employing local skills are giving people a career pathway from a low base of qualifications?

Social care and health is a challenge. The apprenticeship qualification is there to aid progression through from level 2 to level 5. Thers’s been a big change in the qualification in the last few years, and I think there's a view, maybe, that it's become too academic and not vocational enough, as it was previously. I know there are further reviews happening with those frameworks at the moment, which should be important. So, part of that is professionalising the sector. The sector wants to attract more people in. I think it's been a challenge in the last few years with the sector, in terms of turnover and retention of staff, and retaining people, and that then has had a knock-on effect on people, in terms of progression on apprenticeships and success rates on apprenticeships as well.

Okay. My last question was really about this clear progression route from lower level to high-level apprenticeships, but social care would be a good example, would it not, of how we need to ensure that we have a skill mix of individuals working in social care?

It's difficult to provide a general answer to the question because every sector is different.

Okay, so stick with social care.

And it will depend on the individual's role within that sector and their ability, then, to be able to undertake what's required for the qualification. So, it's not down to the person’s ability, but they have to be in the role, and the relevant role, in order to undertake that qualification. So, if they complete a level 2 and want to progress to a level 3, they’d have to be in that position undertaking those responsibilities in order to progress to that level. So, it’s not as simple as kind of progressing from that 2, to 3, to 4; those responsibilities have to change in order for them then to progress through the levels. And I think that’s a barrier, not just in care, but in lots of areas.

Okay, so that’s down to the employer having a really clear progression pathway for all their employees.

Yes, that’s partly down to them, yes, and being able to provide the opportunity, I guess, really, for people to progress.   

Okay. 

Okay, Jenny? Thank you, Jenny. Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, both, and Lisa online as well. Needs of the employers and the economy is where I’m going to start my line of questioning, and I asked the same question of the previous panel around Estyn’s reporting that there’s no published national analysis of trends in the take-up of vocational courses against the needs of the labour market and the economy. I’m just wondering how much of an issue this lack of data is, in terms of aligning the apprenticeship provision within Wales with the needs of our economy. And I’ll start with you, Lisa.

Thanks, Sam. Well, look, data is so important, isn’t it? The lack of national analysis of vocational course trends—that is concerning. We need that in order to be able to see where we need to go, where there are peaks, where there are troughs et cetera. The analysis is crucial for aligning educational offerings, and also, then, aligning that with labour market demands as well.

So, establishing a national database and regular reporting can actually address that. So, we need that tangible evidence, don’t we, and the only way we can have that tangible evidence, if you like, in order to be smart and to analyse et cetera, is by having the data. And it isn’t available. So, for us as providers, for stakeholders and partners like Estyn, Medr et cetera, if we had it in front of us, it would make life a lot easier, because, then, we can plan pathways, we can plan visions et cetera, by having the data to use. It’s as simple as that.

Fab, thank you. Grant. 

Yes, we need the data, absolutely. Without it, we can’t challenge ourselves, can we, and set ourselves baseline objectives? And it goes back to the conversation earlier about a vision and a strategy and direction. So, if we haven’t actually got the data, where are we going, what is the direction of travel? And we’ve got to set ourselves ambitious targets in order to develop and create those progression pathways.

And I think, particularly with Medr now overseeing the whole tertiary education system, data is going to be crucial, because we want people to be able to navigate their way through all the different systems, depending on where they are in their own circumstance in life. So, the data has to follow that, and we need to understand what they’ve achieved and how they’ve progressed. So, yes, they’ve highlighted—. I know from conversations we’ve also had with Estyn that employer engagement is a theme they’re looking at at the moment, and how to improve that, and, obviously, this comes into that as well.

Thank you. Barry.

I totally agree with what Lisa and Grant have said—more robust labour market information to link vocational qualifications and courses to industry demand. I can only agree.

Where’s that failure come from, then, the lack of the ability to collect the data? And whose—we’ve talked about Medr and Estyn and other organisations involved—responsibility should it be to collate this data?

But all the stakeholders have been in different places, haven’t they, in reality? If you look at schools, you look at FE organisations, HE, independent organisations, there are lots of different people that oversaw those organisations. Now, with Medr coming together, looking after tertiary, then that should follow through.

So, Medr should be the body that’s collating this data.

I think, if we can get a central system and database, then—. There are learner record systems there, so there is an element of an LRS in place, where we can track learners’ progress. But, obviously, if you had older learners, for example, they wouldn’t be on that system. The LRS is there, but it’s probably not as comprehensive as it needs to be. So, it’s a starting point, and now that everything comes under one umbrella, and we have a clear vision, then I think we can do that.

Okay. 

I think it would need to encompass all post-16 education and training, so that we get a holistic view, not just apprenticeships, not just FE.

Yes, absolutely. 

Lisa, anything to add on that around Medr’s role, given its new set-up, on collation of data?

No, I guess if I’m sat here with a Medr hat on, I may say, ‘Well, Sam, we need a little bit more money, then, to be able to do that.' I don’t know. But, no, I think they could be the driver for it. I think this also goes back to—and I’m sat with a schools hat on as well—Welsh Government deciding not to have cohorts of data for schools as well, and that has caused some issues in being able to look at trends and patterns. So, I think it’s twofold. We need to look at it from a Welsh Government pre-16 perspective, because we need to see what that data is so that we can track those learners coming into the post-16 arena, and then from post-16 in order to look at those trends, educational offerings, labour market demands, then we need to have that data there as well. I think that Medr could certainly be the driver for that now and the catalyst for that, because tertiary comes under one roof, if you like. So, I think it would be far easier to manage in that perspective. But, yes, we need it—

Okay. Thank you, Lisa.

Sam, could I just bring Hefin in? I think he indicated that he had a supplementary on this point.

Yes. In the process of compiling my report, Yana Williams, the principal and CEO of Coleg Cambria, made this point about data, and I went back to Careers Wales about it. They pushed back quite strongly and said that they keep a record of annual pupil destinations through a survey of school leavers, undertaken on behalf of the Welsh Government, which provides a useful snapshot of pupil destinations. And the 2022 survey reported the destinations of 55,715 young people, and the overall no-response rate was only 1.6 per cent. So, is that not available to you? Is that not any good for this purpose?

I'll just jump in quickly. Hefin, yes, basically that data is available, but I don't know how accurate that data is and it's not readily available to all stakeholders, if you like. So, I'm obviously coming from the chair of scrutiny of Merthyr Tydfil council with my hat on there and knowing where the data lands and where it ends, if you like. So, for me now, sitting with my NTFW hat on, I'm just saying that we don't necessarily get all of that data, and Medr could be the catalyst in order for us to get that so that we can look at those trends.

Okay. Sam.

Thank you very much. Staying with you, Lisa, I'm just wondering—. You've stated that the Welsh Government has responded well to demands from employers on apprenticeship pathways but note that the speed of the response is a challenge and can hinder filling the skills gap in fast-paced or emerging sectors. I'm just wondering what changes you would outline to improve that.

I think that Grant alluded to this earlier. Inevitably, we need to have a quick adaptation that would help to fill skills gaps more effectively in streamlining processes and increasing resources would help. So, when we're talking about employers coming to us, and as providers we are working together to build these new frameworks et cetera, it's the delay in getting those agreed, whether that's from Welsh Government or from an actual awarding organisation et cetera. It depends, really, where the breakdown is, but sometimes it's delayed. I'll give you one example, and I think that Barry alluded to it earlier as well with hospitality: essential skills. We looked at reviewing that four or five years ago. We've been waiting, waiting, waiting, because it's one of the barriers within apprenticeships, when we talk about apprenticeship levels and learner capability et cetera, and we are having a new review of essential skills in apprenticeships, but it's not until 2028. So, you have to ask yourself why is it taking so long. So, I think, again, we need to do a bit of a delve into that, a deeper dive, as to why these decisions actually take so long, because it does hinder progress. And then I think that it was Grant who said that employers will become a little bit disillusioned, then, because something is taking so long. So, that's what we need to do, really. 

Again, talking to Medr colleagues, I have to give them a shout-out, talking to the apprenticeship team in Welsh Government, I think we're getting better at doing that, but it's in its infancy, it's in its early days as these partnerships come together. 

Okay. Thank you. Anything to add, Barry?

Just briefly that I agree with Lisa, you need to be talking to employers. Do essential skills need to be a central part of the framework? And then the other issue, I think, is that we need to be very mindful that some frameworks don't contain all of the options that a learner would need to operate in his or her role in the workplace. If I can give you an example, a colleague in Neath was talking to me the other day. Her son is a plumbing apprentice, but the ground-source heat pumps course wasn't a part of the apprenticeship. Now, before, the personal learning account would have paid for it, and it could have been an additionality; now, it's not a part of the apprenticeship anymore. You can't use PLA, because it's been pushed into part-time FE funding, so there's an unintended consequence there that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at these frameworks, that they've got options in them that suit the learner in the role that they're undertaking in the workplace. 

Before I come to you, Grant, Barry, just to stay on that point around the funding element of it, is the funding sometimes too prescriptive for the learner? I'm looking back at another inquiry we've done on something completely separate. Their ask was that funding was made a little bit more open-ended so that it could be used more imaginatively to fill the needs that were required. Would that be the same sort of case within this sphere?

That's not the point that I'm making here. What I'm saying is that frameworks need to have perhaps more optional modules, not just mandatory, because some of those mandatory modules don't actually relate directly to somebody's role in the workplace, so they're struggling to complete the framework, and are needing to do additional options to actually get the skills needed to undertake their day-to-day job.

That's really helpful. Grant.

I think the rigidity of the framework is part of the barrier and part of the challenge. And, again, you have learners coming on board with lots of different needs, individual needs, different entry levels—they can't all complete the same framework as someone else. So, it needs to be more tailored—streamlined, I think, it's fair to say. And that would help then in terms of the constant review so that you've got something that's more fluid, that's more adaptable, more agile for what employers want as well. 

Brilliant. The second set of questions that I've got here—and a lot of this has been touched on in answers to other colleagues throughout the morning—is on those potential barriers for apprentices. We've touched on the employer capacity—Barry, you mentioned that earlier around employers not having that capacity and junior apprenticeships not being available in north Wales, and degree apprenticeships limited. What are we doing well in bringing apprentices on board and where are we falling short in those barriers that could be overcome? Grant, do you want to kick off?

What are we doing well? We are being responsive to employers—we're engaging well with employers; we are trying to develop new frameworks that employers want to see, so, that is happening. A challenge we have, which we talked about earlier, is the longevity of understanding the funding and what it looks like over the next couple of years, so that landscape is a challenge with that.

In terms of the barriers for learners and apprentices, the entry level requirements, sometimes, for a framework are a barrier: they may not be undertaking certain responsibilities within their role that they need to. That can be a barrier for individuals. And making sure that they've got that effective advice and guidance in schools. One of the things we see a lot of is that people still see apprenticeships as, almost, the wet trades in reality. And there are a lot more opportunities there, if you look at digital marketing, for example, social media—there are some fantastic apprenticeships out there and people still see them as the old guilds and the old wet trades. So, there's a big—

Sorry to cut across, but when you say that some people see them as the old wet trades, where's that breakdown in that knowledge of what apprenticeships are? Is that the careers advice within schools, the teachers, parents?

I think parents are the biggest influencers and I think that's the biggest challenge. If a parent maybe has gone through an academic approach, that's what they may advocate for their sons or daughters. So, there's an awareness, and there have been lots of campaigns, lots of marketing, to try and increase that. We've got the apprenticeship week in a couple of weeks, so that's all there to break down those barriers, but people still see them as the traditional routes, and we need to find a way of breaking that down.

Just before you come in, Barry, I know that Jenny wanted to talk about this, and it might inform an answer.

It was on something that was mentioned in passing by one of you around the transport requirement to get to the training. Dr Walters, you obviously run a college in a rural area. What consideration has been given to supplementing whatever public transport exists with electric bikes for people living in remoter places?

We certainly haven't considered that, but I think you're right to raise it as an issue. I know in the briefing document, you said that you didn't want to go into transport, because you're aware—

No, we don't, but I just think—

But I think you're right to highlight it. At the last meeting when I attended the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, we talked about a learner who, in terms of getting to his employment, had to get two buses and he had to work two hours of that day just to cover his costs of getting to and from work. I haven't picked up on things like electric bikes—

They might be misused by parts of other sectors.

When you're in a more urban area, I think, yes, definitely—

No, no, electric bikes will get you up any hill.

They will, but how long does it take to get to work? I've got a learner who lives in Clarbeston Road and works in Beggars Reach, and the mother takes the learner down to the job and picks her up at the end of the shift and takes her home. So, it is an issue. And I also know that there are companies in Pembrokeshire who won't employ an apprentice unless they've got a driving licence. So, there are lots of challenges out there.

On barriers, if you're following an academic route, it's pretty clear, isn't it? You go to school, you do GCSEs and then you do your A-levels, and you might go on to do an undergraduate course, or you might go into employment. One of the barriers I think is parental understanding of the complicated pathways. Just to give you some examples, we've got a learner at Pembrokeshire College who started on Jobs Growth Wales, moved on to level 1 FE, level 2 FE, now is a work-based learning electrician. Another learner completed Jobs Growth Wales ICT level 1, level 2, level 3. They're now doing the NVQ part of the apprenticeship and are in employment. There is a great video on YouTube of Simon Pirotte talking to a learner from Swansea College, Isaac Fabb, who struggled with mainstream education, went on a bridging programme, level 2 FE, multiskilled, and is now on a level 3 carpentry apprenticeship. So, the routes are complicated and we have to work out some way of making it clear—not necessarily to the individual, but to the parents, as somebody mentioned earlier.

Just on that point, then—

Very briefly. The clock is ticking, and I want to get Lisa in to maybe comment.

From a Pembrokeshire College perspective, Barry, Campus 6, where sixth-form pupils are now being taught academically through the college, does that open up an opportunity to speak to the students about those opportunities that are in apprenticeships, more so than the college-school relationship that existed previously?

Yes, absolutely. We don't mind what route a learner follows, whether they want to follow a vocational course, an academic course, if they want to go on an apprenticeship; we will try and match them to the programme that best meets their needs. I can't speak for other institutions, but that's our goal: get them on the right course.

Thank you, Sam. Lisa, given that you've listened to the points that Sam and Jenny have made, is there anything you want to add? By all means, if you don't need to add anything, please say so.

Chair, very quickly on Jenny's point: I do love the thought about electric bikes, I have to say, so that is something to consider; subsidised travel as well, especially for our more rural learners, would be important. My colleagues have made some other really good points. And just very quickly on Sam's point regarding pathway availability: we worked really well with the Welsh Government apprenticeship team last year to reduce some of the eligibility restrictions—when you're signing up a learner or looking for a learner to progress onto a higher apprenticeship, but there's still some work to be done there. Where we've got somebody moving from a level 2 to level 3 because their level of responsibility has changed with an employer, sometimes they're hindered and can't progress because of the eligibility criteria—i.e. they have to be new to the job role, or age et cetera. I think we can still do some work with the team on that, moving forward.

Thank you, Lisa. Luke, did you have anything more you wanted to add, or have we covered the territory? Lovely, thank you.

Could I just have one for written submission?

This is why I've got no hair, Sam—[Laughter.] 

Just a written submission around not the barriers to apprentices joining, but those that are dropping off within the system. Some evidence around that would be really helpful, because I think understanding why students are dropping out of the system is equally as important. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for your evidence this morning; it's very much appreciated. A transcript will be given to you for you to have a look at to make sure you're happy with that transcript. If there's any additional evidence you'd like to submit to the committee when you walk out of here and you think, 'I'd like to have put that on the record', please do supply that to the committee, because obviously, this is an ongoing inquiry. Thank you once again for submitting your evidence and being here this morning to inform the committee in its deliberations. Thank you. We'll now go into private session while we transfer over to the next group of witnesses.

That little green dot on the screen indicates that we're now in public session. This is the final evidence-gathering session of this committee's morning meeting, and I thank the witnesses for coming before us today. I'll invite each of the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record and the role or the company or group that they are representing here today, and then we'll go into questions from the Members. The session is scheduled to last roughly an hour, so I'd ask Members and witnesses to be succinct in their answers and, obviously, provide as much information as helps our inquiry to better apprenticeships and apprenticeship provisions here in Wales. We'll start with Amie, then move to Nerys and then to Jamie. So, Amie first, to introduce yourself and the role that you fulfil.

Bore da. Good morning. My name is Amie Field, I am head of services for young people at Careers Wales.

Bore da. Good morning. I'm Nerys Bourne, I'm director of customer strategy, again working with Careers Wales.

Morning, everyone. I'm Jamie Cater, and I'm senior policy manager for employment at Make UK, so representing engineering and manufacturing employers in Wales and the rest of the UK.

Thank you all very much. I'll begin the questioning, if I may. In February of last year, the Welsh Government gave a statement on apprenticeships, the priorities and what they wanted to see delivered in the field of apprenticeships. Medr obviously came into being in August of last year, and are charged with working with providers to facilitate the statement's ambitions and deliver apprenticeships across Wales. Could you indicate what your thoughts are on that statement that the Welsh Government put out last year, and, in particular, what working relationship your organisations have with Medr and how you've found them since they've started their work in August of last year? I'll start with Amie, then we'll move to Nerys, and then we'll come to you, Jamie.

Sorry, I couldn't unmute myself then. I think Nerys could probably cover this one off from a Careers Wales perspective as a whole.

We welcome the policy statement from the Welsh Government and we couldn't not agree with the objectives and actions that are outlined in the policy. I think if we were able to achieve the objectives and the actions in the policy, it would go a long way in terms of addressing some of the real challenges that we have around the economy in terms of skill shortages and skills mismatch in the country. But I think apprenticeships will only play one part in addressing those economic challenges.

The statement discussed the importance of building resilience and sustainability, and using labour market intelligence to create an understanding of where these shortages are and where we need to focus the skills agenda. Our role in Careers Wales is to make sure that customers are aware of opportunities and the options available to them—so, young people in schools, those who are leaving post-16 learning and, of course, adult customers, as well, making sure that they're aware of what skills employers are looking for and where the opportunities will be in the future.

In terms of working with Medr, we have established a good working relationship with Medr, and we meet with them regularly. There are clear synergies between our work and what Medr are trying to achieve in terms of easing the transition from pre 16 to post 16, encouraging lifelong learning and ambitious learners. So, we've had quite a few meetings with Medr and discussed that transition and providing careers information, advice and guidance in pre-16 settings, but also looking at how we can extend that to post-16 settings.

Thank you for that, Nerys. I just read your paper and, in the paper, you talk of your innovative business engagement activities. Could you tell us what's innovative about them, rather than just standard?

They're innovative in that we try different ways to motivate young people. The purpose of our employer engagement activities is to really inspire and motivate young people and make the links between what they learn in school in the curriculum and what the world of work looks like. So, it's trying different variations. It could be employers coming in to talk about their pathway into that career, it could be visiting sites and learning on site, it could be virtual work experience or virtual tours, as well. So, we try different things to appeal to different styles of learning, I guess.

But, that's quite standard, isn't it? Is there something specific that you could say is innovative, and that you stand out in your way of working that we could say is best practice and doesn't happen elsewhere, with careers advice?

In terms of the business engagement?

Yes. Well, I'm just interested in that statement about innovative business engagement, yes.

I think it's innovative in that we try different things and different platforms, and we have the access to school pupils and employers and bringing them together with the national careers body for Wales. And we have a database of employers who are willing and able to work with young people in schools. I don't think anybody else has access to that in Wales, and we should be proud that we have that availability.

Okay. Thank you. Just on the regional skills partnerships, how important a role do they play, obviously, in dealing with your work, engaging with your work and, obviously, helping to deliver as broad a spectrum as possible of apprenticeship opportunities across Wales?

We work closely with the regional skills partnerships. We have a senior manager who sits on each of the four boards. I think the critical thing with the role of the RSP is that partnership working. We work collaboratively with them on various projects and share labour market intelligence with them, as well. Their managers have come in and spoken to our delivery teams to make sure that our teams are up to date around where the skills shortages are and the labour market intelligence that the RSP holds, as well a looking at the LMI that we produce in-house in Careers Wales, as well. But I think their role is key in bringing employers and understanding the regional differences across Wales in terms of where those skills shortages are.

Okay. Thank you. Jamie, would you like to add anything to the lines of questioning that I've put to Nerys?

Thank you, Chair. Just to come back to the policy statement from last year, it's something that, as Careers Wales, we fully support. I think the objectives it outlines are the right ones. I think particularly important for us is the second objective, around upskilling, retraining and progression. We know that employers in our sector are increasingly looking to invest not just in young people and young apprentices coming into the labour market, as crucially important as they are, but investing in people who are already in the workforce to meet evolving skills demands, how existing jobs in the labour market might change. So, I think that part of the strategy and the approach from the Welsh Government is really important and it’s really welcome to see that outlined in the statement and reflecting that change in demand for skills.

In terms of the relationship with Medr and the way in which it’s functioned so far, obviously, conscious that primarily the remit of the organisation is to work largely with the education sector, but, as employers, we think it’s important that it is hearing what businesses need for their workforce and making sure that education provision is aligned with employer demand. So, we, obviously, do engage with Medr, and have been satisfied with that so far. I think one of the things we would like to continue to work on, as you mentioned the regional skills partnerships, is just making sure that there’s proper alignment and co-ordination at a national level and a regional level between those bodies. It’s right that bodies like the regional skills partnerships are reflecting differences and specific demands associated with local labour markets, but, equally, we have lots of members who operate across multiple sites across Wales, and they want a level of consistency as well in terms of skills policy and the programmes that are available, just so that it’s easy to understand and navigate from an employer perspective. So, that’s one area where, maybe, we’d like to see a little bit more and we would like to work with Medr a little bit more to ensure that the right balance is struck, effectively, between national and regional policy making.

Thank you. Hefin. 

One of the things that we've discussed at length today has been the ability for colleges to access schools to discuss with pupils their possible destinations into apprenticeships, because we know that there's a relatively low take-up of apprenticeships among many students, particularly more academically able students as well. In England, Jamie, they've got this Baker clause, which was added to the Technical and Further Education Act 2017, and that stipulates in law that further education has a right to go into schools to meet those students. We don't have that in Wales. Are you aware of it and of how it works, and whether it's effective?

I am aware of it. Is it effective? To an extent. I think it has improved the extent to which both the further education sector and employers are able to engage with schools. I don’t think it works perfectly. Speaking from an employer representative perspective, I think there are still a lot of frustrations from employers about the extent to which schools are receptive to hearing from them, whether that’s primary or secondary education. I think it’s a welcome part of the approach in England and it has improved that engagement. But, in lots of ways, I think the frustrations are broadly similar in England to those in Wales, which is there just still isn’t enough of that engagement. So, the legislation helps, but it doesn’t really go far enough in terms of changing that kind of culture and some of the other barriers to that engagement.

So, the two questions that come from that then would be: should we have a similar clause through legislation in Wales, and, if not, or even if so, in what other ways can we overcome this problem?

I suppose, in light of what I’ve just said, I think a similar legislative approach wouldn’t harm anything, but it’s also not the solution in itself. So, if the Welsh Government were to legislate in a similar way, I would caution against thinking that that's going to be the silver bullet to address those challenges in term of FE and employer engagement with schools. I think there are other things that we might consider to be helpful perhaps—the role of Estyn and thinking about school inspections and schools being assessed, for example, or being part of schools’ assessment of their performance is the extent to which they are actively promoting things like apprenticeship opportunities. So, there are approaches like that which might work in terms of just giving schools a bit of an incentive to think about how they’re working with colleges and employers to promote those sorts of routes.

Okay, that's really helpful. I don't know if Careers Wales have any views on that particular question.

Yes—[Interruption.] I'm sorry. Nerys.

Just to add to what Jamie was saying, I was thinking around the 14-16 learning guide that's been published by the Welsh Government as part of the curriculum, and I think there is an opportunity there—the learner entitlement—and one of the elements there is to make sure that young people are aware of all their post-16 options and that planning towards that. If that’s embedded in CWRE within the curriculum, I think that could influence giving young people more access and giving colleges and other providers access to young people in schools.

Okay. That's helpful. Amie, did you want to come in on that?

Yes. I was only going to say that what we see is a really varied picture around this agenda. Some schools and colleges work fantastically well in getting the colleges in, talking about their options, the young people, actually, themselves being able to go out during school time to see the college facilities, see what’s available. And then we see some selective good practice where, I would say, certain groups of young people are able to have exposure to the availability of post-16 options outside of sixth form. Then, on the other end, we see some schools arranging their sixth form open evening on the same day as the college open evening. There’s really varying practice across Wales, which is a real shame. I think it was Lisa who mentioned in the last session that where there is a more tertiary set up, it’s far better there. That’s probably what we see as well, that there’s much better exposure in the more tertiary areas of Wales where they don’t have sixth forms.

Okay. Although I note Llanidloes high and NPTC do it, and Llanidloes high has a sixth form. They seem to work quite collaboratively well. That's the case, isn't it?

Yes. There are some really good practices like that, where schools are very open to letting colleges in, letting them speak to the young people, offering for them to go out for the day, go and see the construction department for the day, but it’s just really varying. There’s no real consistent approach to it across Wales.

Okay. That's helpful. And what about the—

Hefin, just a minute, if I may, there is some background noise coming in from somewhere. I'm not sure if someone's got a dog or something in the room, but it sounds like a bit of snoring going on. 

There's nobody with me.

It might be mine. I will put him out. 

It is coming over loud and clear on the PA system.

I think it's Amie's. I've only got rabbits here and they don't make noise.

Sorry.

No problem at all. 

We're very used to Amie's dog in Careers Wales. [Laughter.]

Cheers, Hefin.

Okay. Thank you. To what extent then would—? Can we look at careers advice? How do you ensure that the quality of careers advice across schools is consistent and effective, and is there a difference between the advice provided by school careers advisers and Careers Wales advisers? How do you get consistency there?

I’m not aware of any schools that employ their own careers advisers outside of the offer that we provide to schools. Just to make everybody aware of what it is that we do, we have a careers adviser based in every single school in Wales—that’s mainstream, PRUs, EOTAS, EHE and special schools. We also have careers advisers attached to FE colleges. We have careers advisers that work in the labour market, supporting people who are unemployed. And we have careers advisers that work in communities, supporting those people. We have a partnership agreement with every single school, so we negotiate with the school what it is that they want, whilst also discussing our needs and what we need to provide as part of our remit. We have a continuous improvement framework in place all the time, so we regularly—. Our staff do self-assessments, we our observe our own staff, we moderate those on a local, regional and national level to look for consistency across the whole of Wales in the quality of the service that we provide to our customers.

Okay. Can I just come back with one last question? 

Please do. Yes, go on.

So, in the last session, our witnesses from FE and private apprenticeship providers told us that there's a lack of data on pupil destinations, and that they need more data in order to plan for the kinds of courses that might be provided, although Careers Wales told me, when I did my transitions to employment report, that you keep a record of annual pupil destinations through surveys, and you mentioned a 2022 destination survey. Is that information not widely available, and is it not sufficient for FE to make plans with regard to apprenticeship courses?

That destination is widely available. It's published on our website on an annual basis. Probably the 2024 data should be available by the middle of March, early April. So, it is published every year. It takes some time. So, there are snapshots taken on 31 October of what all young people are doing from years 11, 12 and 13. That data, we share it with the local authorities, and then, once they come back to us with any gaps in that data, we then have it ratified by Welsh Government. That's why it takes a bit longer for it to be published, in mid March, early April.

What I would say is that it's only a portion of the post-16 learners. We track years 11, 12 and 13, but 45 per cent-ish, 50 per cent, go back to year 12 and 13 on annual basis. We don't track FE learners in the same way. We don't do a snapshot on 31 October. And what is not included in that published data is what courses those learners are undertaking. So, from what I can gather, what the FE colleges would like is what actual courses people are doing, so that they can future plan. We do hold quite a lot of that data, and we have worked in collaboration with the north RSP and Welsh Government to develop a prototype of what a data intelligence hub might look like. So, we've used some of the data around what vocational courses young people are studying versus what the growth and priority sectors are for the north Wales region. Just because it was a prototype, we used it in that way, but we modelled the data in a way that it could be lifted and shifted onto any of the regions or national data around requirements. We brought in things like live vacancy data—

Oh, dear. 

We've lost Amie there, have we?

Yes, I think she's lost her signal. 

Okay. We've lost Amie's signal.

Okay. It was a very helpful answer. Nerys, is there anything you can fill in there?

Yes. So, the data hub that she was talking about, the prototype that we've developed and we've showcased to the RSP, we've done a bit more work around this data hub now, and demonstrated it to colleagues in Welsh Government as well. There's huge potential to having a data hub. You were talking about data in the previous sessions today. So, this data hub has potential to give us the information, and give that kind of thread from pre-16 right through to people in employment and not in employment. So, it could inform how we strategically plan provision, it can look at where the skills shortages are. There's huge potential to it, but, obviously, with something like that, it needs investment. We have discussed the prototype with Medr. We met with them last week. So, we're going to give a demo to Medr as well, because they certainly have a role to play in looking at the data across tertiary education.

That's very helpful for a report we might put together and a recommendation. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. [Interruption.] Thank you, Amie. Jenny, you're next.

Okay. I want to look at the success of the junior apprenticeship scheme, which is offered in five colleges. What have been the outcomes in terms of retaining people to move on to the next level? I think this is probably one for Careers Wales. So, is it Amie or Nerys?

Yes, I'm happy to take that up, Jenny. Thank you for that question. Junior apprenticeships, like you said, they're offered mainly in five of the 12 FE colleges across Wales. The performance data on it is contained in the recent Estyn review that was published around September time into junior apprenticeships. It does give the breakdown of the achievements of the young people, but they tended to progress on to FE provision. I think it's important that we remember that these young people are what would be considered a RAG learner in the main—a red learner in the RAG data—so, those most at risk of becoming NEET. So the fact that they've progressed and maintained a two-year course and then gone on to post-16 provision is actually a fantastic achievement. 

Okay, so why haven't we got them covering the whole of Wales? Because there's nothing in north Wales, for example.

I don't know the answer to that, I'm sorry, Jenny. From what I understand from Estyn’s paper there are some funding complications around it and just a lack of pick-up in some places, just varying take-up.

Okay. But, ultimately, it's down to the agility of schools and colleges to devise curriculum offers that suit the needs of all learners. There's a reason why they're on these junior apprenticeships—that's because the core curriculum isn't suiting their needs. So, it would be really useful if we could have some greater understanding as to why, if it's been successful, it hasn't been rolled out further. But can I move on, because we're short of time? But you could perhaps tell us more about that, if you have anything further to say.

So, you used to be responsible, Careers Wales, for placements, and that's no longer in your remit. This is for work placements, for work experience. But, certainly in the disability and employment inquiry that the Equality and Social Justice Committee did, we heard that some learners were simply left in the classroom while everybody else went off to placements. So, what discussion have you had with schools and colleges on how they're going to overcome ensuring that everybody gets a work placement?