National Assembly for Wales

Okay, welcome everyone—croeso to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee. We’ve received apologies today from Lesley Griffiths, and Hannah Blythyn is attending as a substitute; Hannah will be joining us shortly. One of our Members is joining virtually—Altaf Hussain. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual, with simultaneous translation. Are there any declarations of interest from committee members? There are not.

We will move on to item 2, then, and that is our ministerial scrutiny session with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant. It’s a general scrutiny session today, in two parts—firstly, housing and then local government. Welcome, Cabinet Secretary, and also, welcome to your officials, Emma Williams, director of housing and regeneration, Sarah Rhodes, deputy director housing policy, and Jo Larner, head of building safety programme. Croeso i bawb—welcome to you all.

Perhaps I might just begin, then, with some initial questions. Firstly, Cabinet Secretary, regarding homelessness and the upcoming ending homelessness Bill, could you tell the committee whether that Bill will be significantly different from the White Paper or not, following the engagement with stakeholders?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and bore da. Yes, you will be aware that the responses to the White Paper did indicate broad support for the ambition and the scope of the proposals within that. We’re still in the process of developing policy and legislation, so it is early days at the moment, so it’s a bit early to draw conclusions about the outcomes, but we do continue to work really closely with stakeholders, including our expert review panel, to deliver an informed approach that aligns with the aspirations of the White Paper.

So, we’re actively considering implementation options to ensure a phased and timely approach to reform, alongside the development of a robust regulatory impact assessment. But I can assure the committee that we remain committed to introducing legislation in this Senedd term.

Is there anything you could say about timescale for that, Cabinet Secretary, at this stage?

Just that we’re keen to do that in this Senedd term, and we will be doing that in this Senedd term. I don’t know if there are any specific other details on that, but—.

The First Minister will announce the exact timing as part of the legislative programme announcements in due course, but we are on schedule for a Bill this Senedd term.  

Okay. Affordable homes taskforce—is it possible for you to provide a little bit more detail than we’ve had hitherto, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of how that taskforce will operate, what you would hope the outcomes to be, and, again, the sort of timescales involved?

Yes. Diolch, Cadeirydd. As I said in the committee a few weeks ago, this is something that we’re looking at as part of a suite of options, because we really know that we need to focus on delivering. This is something that the First Minister is incredibly keen on—delivery in this area, but across portfolios. We’re currently finalising the terms of reference for the taskforce, but we will be announcing—the First Minister will be announcing—a chair imminently. So, we will keep the committee up to date, and we will also make sure that you have the terms of reference for that taskforce in due course.

Yes, Siân.

Diolch, Siân. As I said, the terms of reference will be outlined very shortly, so I'll make sure that that is clear in those terms of reference as well, because it's something that I'll be working with the taskforce on. But obviously Julie, with her delivery hat on, will have a very keen focus on it as well. But I will make sure that the committee is kept updated on that.

Okay, Siân? Okay, thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary.

Moving on to the housing support grant and what the future holds, would you plan to increase the housing support grant over the longer term, particularly because we need to see this rapid rehousing transformation that we've discussed at some length in various fora, really? Is that what you would intend, Cabinet Secretary, or are you—?

Yes, just to be clear around—. It’s really important to remember that prevention remains the real focus and the priority to reduce the flow of people going into temporary accommodation. In terms of the housing support grant, you’ll be aware that the housing support grant budget was increased by £13 million, or 7.8 per cent, in this year’s budget. So, the total budget is now standing at £182.4 million. Within the settlement for 2025-26, I will be strongly advocating for an increase in the housing support grant budget to continue our commitment to the real living wage for the homelessness and housing support workforce, who deliver the support within these services. And again, as I did a few weeks’ ago, I’d just like to put my thanks on record for the work that those staff do—it’s an incredibly important job—and that was part of the reason for the uplift.

Yes, I'm sure the whole committee would like to add their voices in terms of the thanks and the recognition that those staff deserve, doing such an incredibly important job with such commitment, which I think we all see in our own constituencies. Siân.

Diolch, Siân. Absolutely, it's really important, we have to work really hard to make sure that we don't lose those valuable staff from the sector, and that always is a challenge in terms of attracting staff, but also of retention.

In the short term, work has commenced across Welsh Government to consider funding allocations within the 2025-26 draft budget, ahead of the publication on 10 December. But any budget increase next year will obviously be dependent on the funding envelope that Welsh Government has, following the UK Government’s autumn statement later this month, and what that funding then means across my entire portfolio as well. So, again, that’s something that I’m sure we can keep the committee updated on.

Okay, Siân? James.

Yes, thanks, Cabinet Secretary. You've outlined, in the brief time that we've been talking, some strategies that the Welsh Government have been using to address homelessness, but the figures from Stats Wales do paint a different picture, don't they? Homelessness has gone up—I've got it in front of me: in 2021-22, it went up by 8 per cent; in 2022-23, it went up as well. So, the strategies we've currently got aren't working, are they? So, I'm just interested in your assessment as a new Cabinet Secretary: why do you think they haven't worked in the past and what do you think needs to be done to put that right?

I think there have been some real strides being made in homelessness across Wales. We know the numbers of people who are homeless and that is something that should sit very difficultly with us all, really, because they’re individuals, and those numbers, you know, there are individuals behind those. We're working hard on the fact that we're trying to end homelessness in Wales and to make sure that, if there is homelessness, it's brief, rare and unrepeated. We're trying to put as much as we can into that prevention side, so that we do work really hard to stop people before they get homeless. That is so crucial, and we've done that with things like the transitional accommodation capital funding programme as well, to try and support people. But I don't know if Sarah would like to come in.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I think it's important to reflect on the fact that the strategy that we've got in place was developed by working closely with the homelessness action group, as they were then, so it's very much grounded in the advice of the sector, experts in the sector. The ending homelessness national advisory board helps us in terms of supporting delivery of that strategy and the action plan. So, we're continuously reflecting on what we need to do to refine that action plan to respond to changing contexts, and the context has changed considerably over the last few years, not least because of the cost-of-living pressures. But certainly the advice that we're getting from the board and from the experts in the sector is that the strategy is right, the measures and the actions that we're taking are right, and it's because of some of the external factors that we faced, it just might take us a bit longer to get where we want to be.

So, if the stats come out—sorry, John—

No.

—for 2023-24 and show that homelessness has gone up again, does that mean you'd have a relook at some of the strategies and say, 'Well, are they actually working?' Even though they've been developed with the industry, if the stats are going in the wrong direction, surely you need to have a stock take and think, 'Is this the right thing that we're doing?'

I think homelessness is a really complex issue, as well. It's not just us looking at the statistics, particularly. I think it is really complex and this is something that we're seeing across the UK; it's not just something specific to Wales. There's no denying there are certain pressures, we know that, but we are really working hard with the sector, with people who have been incredibly brave, I think, to share their experiences. They've lived through homelessness, and they're actually trying to help us to try and make a difference, to change the way we do things, so that other people don't have to go through these things.

I remember being at the White Paper launch in Newport, as a constituency Member, and speaking to people who had taken part in that and given their own views, and it was quite incredible—I think Siân was there with Julie James, who was the Minister at the time—to hear those people who'd lived through the challenges of homelessness and come out, really trying to do everything they could to share their experiences to make an improvement. And the willingness of Welsh Government to listen, I think, is really important and that people know that we are keen to listen. We want to do that and we want to really make an improvement. Sarah, did you want to add?

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, just further to what you were saying, we do continuously look at what we're doing. The Cabinet Secretary mentioned the TACP programme and that was very much in response to what we were hearing from the sector and to try and support move-on from temporary accommodation. The additional discretionary homelessness money that we give to local authorities, again, is in recognition of the need to try and support more prevention activity. So, we continuously engage with the sector, with local authorities, with service users, as the Cabinet Secretary said, to learn and to refine what we're doing. Obviously, the programme of legislative reform that we're bringing forward is also seeking to not just respond in the immediate term, but also make sure we've got the longer term strategy and the longer term levers that we need to end homelessness in Wales.

James, do you want to continue?

Yes, before I move on to building safety, one element that can end homelessness is actually the building of houses, and we've seen that the phosphate regulations that were brought in had a major impact on house building across Wales. Have you quantified, Cabinet Secretary, the number of housing units that have been delayed or prevented due to phosphate restrictions, especially in the social housing sector?

Thank you, James. I know that with the previous Cabinet Secretary a lot of progress has been made in this area, particularly with the former First Minister as well, who was chairing that group. Yes, absolutely, we are making progress and that's something I continue to do in my role with the new Cabinet Secretary for the environment and climate change, because he's working hard on that as well. In terms of the phosphates, perhaps I can ask Emma to come in on that one.

The phosphate-related work, as the Cabinet Secretary says, it's really important that it had that focus from the First Minister at the time, and a number of river summits looking in a cross-Government way at the issue. I think, at the time, at the start of those summits, we had 68 sites that we'd identified that were held up due to phosphates. The work that was done—. It was an individual, site-by-site exercise, because the issues weren't all the same on each individual site. We're down to only one of those is now held up due to phosphates. So, a combination of having the right people around the table, the right conversation and the right targeted focus on trying to resolve a specific challenge has been really successful in relation to phosphates. So, there are still challenges, but I think we have a better, collective, sector-wide set of approaches that can be taken in terms of not ending up in the same position again.

That's fine. Just—

Sorry. I was just going to say that I think that's an important point as well, and something that we hope the housing taskforce and other groups—to try and unblock some of the problems with areas for house building, as we have done with the phosphates.

Sorry. Siân.

So, they have been unblocked from phosphates, but that doesn't mean that there are houses there.

They will be in different stages of development, but they are no longer held up. Phosphates was identified as the major significant blocker on those 68 sites. I don't have the number of homes on those sites to hand, but we have it, so we can provide that to the committee afterwards, if you'd like us to. And absolutely, sites often face a number of challenges and barriers, and as the Cabinet Secretary says, in terms of unblocking other sites that have challenges, what we can learn from the approach on phosphates is that, by getting the right people around the table for a very focused conversation, you can often have far more success in terms of challenging the issues that are at play.

I was just going to say as well, just to follow on from that in terms of areas that have some blockages on, I've written to the committee, following our discussion at the last meeting, around the letter that we wrote to RSLs and local authorities to see where some of the challenges were already in the pipeline. So, the committee has a copy of that letter. We have had a really positive response to that. We're still analysing those that are coming in, but we feel very pleased to have had that positive response and to see those areas where there are particular challenges, and that's something we're really keen to unblock, and to know what's in the pipeline as well, which local authorities and RSLs have been able to point to us. So, yes, we’re really drilling down on some of that detail, which I think will help, as the issue with phosphates has, as well.

Yes, that's great, and if the committee could be kept up to date as things develop, that would be very good. 

Yes.

James.

Just on this point, Chair, and those 68, there are obviously going to be other social housing developments that have probably not actually come forward at all, because of phosphate regulation. Does the Welsh Government have any idea how many have not even come to that stage of you knowing of the 68? Say, Powys, for example, which has got quite strict phosphate regulations in place, I know of a lot of social housing developments that the council are doing that haven't even gone to planning stage, because they can't even get there. So, I'm just interested—. With the work you do around the futureproofing of housing stock numbers, how many sites have not even come onto the planning system yet because of phosphates? Because that'll give us a wider indication of how many units potentially are not being built.

I don't have a figure for that, I'm afraid.

You don't have a figure on that one.

I don't have a figure for things that have not even come forward. What I can say is that we have a very healthy pipeline of developments and social housing developments across Wales that runs into three years and beyond in terms of an initial programme that is in the social housing grant programme, and a reserve programme. And then part of the exercise that the Cabinet Secretary referred to was actually seeking further information on other developments that aren't currently in the programme but are waiting to join their place in the programme for the social housing grant. 

Do you think, Cabinet Secretary, it’s something that the Welsh Government should probably look into with housing associations and local authorities, to see how many have probably not even gone into the planning stage yet because of phosphates? Surely for the Welsh Government that would be a good piece of information to have, to say that there could be hundreds of thousands of units that could be built that haven't even gone into the planning system yet, which are those 68 sites that the Welsh Government are trying to unblock.

I think that's some of the work that the new Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change—

You're the housing Secretary.

In terms of what we can work together on, because that was something—. It's bringing the right people around the table. Because absolutely, if it's unblocking, it's dealing with the phosphates issue, but there's a wider issue. But it's absolutely crucial to the housing sector in terms of building more houses. So, yes, absolutely I'm keen to be very much involved with that. But as I say, the phosphates issue is one. There are a number of other issues and that's why we need to look at these in detail. I think having that granular data that we have, and in those discussions specifically with local authorities and RSLs about what are the issues, what is coming up in your pipeline, what are the challenges that you haven't even put to us—. I think that granular data and that really digging down can try and unblock it, really. 

I'm sure other colleagues will come on to some other questions there. But I want to move on to building safety, if that's okay. We haven't seen the pace of delivery on building safety that a lot of people would have liked to have seen, but a lot of that as well is around having a robust workforce to deliver what we actually need to do with bringing buildings up to the regulations that we all need to adhere to now. I'm just interested what conversations you've had with the Cabinet Secretary for skills to make sure that we do have that robust workforce in place to carry out those remediation works to those properties, to make sure people are actually living in safe homes. Because none of us want to see a situation like Grenfell ever again, and I think we need to make sure we deliver this at pace. There were recommendations coming from Audit Wales and the public accounts committee around elements of the workforce, and I'm just interested in what work the Welsh Government have done around that to make sure there is pace and delivery in this area of work.

Absolutely, we all want to see pace, and we all don't want to be in this situation, do we? Least of all the people that are living in that accommodation as well. Just to say first of all my sympathies go out to all those people who are involved, through no fault of their own. So, absolutely we want to see this go faster. We want the pace involved. But we also need to make sure we get it right.

In Wales, the whole way we're doing things here and the way we're adopting our approach is we're looking at internal and external safety issues as well—not just the cladding in the external bit, but internal fire safety issues, because we believe that's the best way to make buildings safe. In terms of the workforce, you're absolutely right—if we don't have the workforce we can't do all these things. The discussions that I can have with the Minister for skills are going to be really important around that, because we need to be putting this in place now. 

In terms of the the recommendations that you mentioned around Audit Wales and the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, the Welsh Government have accepted the recommendations in both of those reports. Work is ongoing with the WLGA and other supporting bodies to progress those recommendations. Further to the evidence provided in the PAPA committee, a number of technical and policy roles have been appointed to support the building safety programme and the work to regulate the design and construction phase. I'm pleased to confirm that eight building control trainees have been recruited in Wales since earlier this year, with match funding from the Welsh Government and local authority building control.

I've got two more questions, Cadeirydd, if that's okay—

I think Emma wanted to come in.

Sorry, yes, I just wanted to add to that, Cabinet Secretary, if you don't mind. On the more generalist construction side, which you hinted at then, there is work under way with Construction Excellence in Wales and through the construction forum that looks more generally at the skills base, for current construction work but also with an eye to the future. So, it's through that work that sits with the Cabinet Secretary for economy, but it is a cross-Government piece of work, because, obviously, a large number of departments have a keen interest in having a strong and robust construction workforce. But it's looking at issues like how robust the current sector is, what might need to be done to support the sector, because, obviously, we've seen construction firms lost to the sector. You're absolutely right, if we don't have enough construction people with the right skills, then it is difficult to progress buildings at the pace that we would like to. So, there is a wider piece of work there that I'm happy to provide some further information on, if that would be helpful to the committee.

Yes, please. James.

These are my final two questions, because I'm hogging the session at the minute. The £127 million of capital funding that was made available for building safety, I'm just wondering how much of that has actually been spent this year. And also, with remedial works, how many buildings that are in the remediation programme are behind schedule? Because I think it'd be interesting to see how the money is equating to delivery on the ground.

Thank you, James. Absolutely, I understand that we all want to see everything done at pace and with the funding there. We have a route to remediation for all residential buildings over 11m in the Welsh building safety fund, and we're getting on with work, and nothing is being held up due to budget constraints. We have committed £210 million of funding since 2021, with a spend of £50 million estimated for 2024-25. As it's estimated, the works will continue over the next five years. We expect an increased spend over this period of work, and work is under way to ensure budgets are reprofiled in line with expected delivery.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Siân.

No. I think all of them have signed. Am I right in saying that, Jo? Yes. 

Everyone we've approached has signed the contract. We do have some buildings that are orphan buildings—they don't have an identified developer, and we're taking those forward directly with the managing agents.

So the developer in my area has actually signed up now.

He has signed, yes, and I'm pleased to say I met with them yesterday.

That is very good news for my electors in Victoria Dock. Diolch.

I'm glad we're able to give good news.

I will relay that to them. Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn. 

Thanks, Chair. Just as my computer goes to sleep—that was excellent timing.

As long as it's not you.

We're going to turn to some questions on the UK Renters' Rights Bill. I know that your predecessor was very clear on the Welsh Government position around no-fault evictions, but, clearly, there's an evolving picture at the UK level and in England now, and I just wonder if that has influenced the position of the Welsh Government, or if you have given any further consideration to that position, on the back of that.

Absolutely, Julie James has done incredible work in this area, so, again, it's good to put on record my thanks to Julie for the work that she's done here. I think we've got the right policy approach here in Wales. We have to look at our own area, and I think our system ensures that tenants are given sufficient time to plan and find a new home, and that's really important, because, ultimately, it's what matters to tenants, having the time to plan. Our reforms extended the notice period from two months to six months, to provide tenants with additional time. But we have stipulated that a notice can’t be served in the first six months of a tenancy. We don’t intend to make further changes to the legislation at this time. As I said, we feel that we’ve developed an approach here that’s right for Wales.

I assume that, over time, you’ll be watching what happens with the legislation at UK level to see how that plays out and if that would impact on us here as well.  

Yes, absolutely. 

The other point around the Bill proposed in England is the civil penalties around illegal evictions against non-compliant landlords. Is this something that the Welsh Government has given any consideration to as well?

Civil penalties in housing was brought in in England in 2016, where local housing authorities are able to issue those civil penalty notices for some housing offences. But it’s important to note that, in Wales, although fixed penalty notices for housing offences are generally lower than civil penalties, the offences are criminal. So, a landlord or agent could potentially lose their licence to operate if found guilty of a breach of housing legislation in Wales. So, removing the ability to operate a business is potentially a bigger deterrent that a one-off fine. 

Okay, Hannah? Yes. Altaf Hussain. 

I’m not sure—. Oh, yes, my speaker is working. Hello, good morning. Will the Welsh Government use the Bill to give tenants in Wales the right to keep pets? If not, how else will the Welsh Government improve tenants’ ability to keep their pets?

Diolch, Altaf, and bore da. I know this is something that the committee has been interested in in the past as well. Under the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, landlords and contract holders can agree additional terms covering the keeping of pets. The Welsh Government has issued guidance, setting out that any pet clause should allow a contract holder to ask permission to keep a pet, and that the landlord is not allowed to unreasonably refuse the request.

We have received evidence from pet charities on the challenges tenants with pets face as part of our Green Paper consultation on adequate housing and fair rents. We will be setting out measures that will support renting with pets within the forthcoming White Paper on fair rents, which will be published before the end of the month. So, it’s not really appropriate for me to talk much more at this time on that, but there will be more information coming ahead of that.

But just to say as well, we have reached out to Rent Smart Wales to contact landlords to highlight the latest research that shows that the cost of any damage to properties by those renting with pets is less than the cost of damage that is caused by those without pets. I think that’s something really important to remind everybody about as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. And with regard to anti-discrimination provisions, is the Welsh Government satisfied with the anti-discrimination provisions in the Renters' Rights Bill?

Diolch, Altaf. Although the UK Government Secretary of State can make changes in Wales through the discrimination element of the Renters' Rights Bill, it’s purely in relation to areas in which Wales does not have devolved powers, such as financial products like mortgages and insurance. Welsh Ministers have the power to make all other regulations in relation to powers contained in the UK Government Bill, including commencement powers and the power to designate additional cohorts who may not be discriminated against. I don’t know if there’s anything else, Emma.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I would add that it’s an iterative process. Officials are working closely with counterparts in the UK Government at the moment, as the work on that Bill progresses. Clauses aren’t necessarily finalised—there’s a Bill process to go through—but there is close working with UK counterparts on that matter.

And just to add, as the Cabinet Secretary said, we will have the regulation-making powers under that legislation, so if, in the future, we do want to any additional cohorts, it gives us the ability to do that. As Emma says, it's an iterative process. We don't currently have plans to make regulations, but we'll see what additional evidence comes in through the White Paper that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, and then we've got powers under the legislation should we wish to make more regulations and include more groups. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I'm talking about the powers and how the Welsh Government intends to use the regulation-making power to outlaw forms of renter discrimination in Wales, and why the Bill gives powers to the Secretary of State to make provisions in the fully devolved area of housing.

Yes, I think I just mentioned that although the Secretary of State can make changes in Wales to the discrimination element, it's just purely in relation to areas that Wales does not have devolved powers for.

Okay. I think, Hannah, would you just briefly turn to the pets issue?

Yes, very briefly, I was going to go back to the question around pets in rented accommodation. I was just thinking that I was encouraged by your answer to that because I think you would have seen an article on the BBC website this morning about somebody who was forced to give up their pet, and, actually, I don’t get emotional reading things often, but that really did tug at my heart strings.

I think, reflecting very personally for me—today is World Mental Health Day—I know that when I struggled with my mental health recently, it was my dog that actually provided me with that support, not just in terms of almost knowing when I wasn’t feeling great, but also in making me get out of the house as well. So, I think there is an impact, isn’t there, on other services and on individuals and on those pets when that happens?

So, I was encouraged by your response, but without wanting you to pre-empt anything that’s going to be in the White Paper, can I just ask if, perhaps from that response, the Welsh Government is open-minded about what else could be done and what levers could be used to support landlords in allowing pets? Because I know from experience too, like you say, that there are additional terms you could apply: a deposit and a contract to remedy certain things when you leave the tenancy as well. So, can I ask if you are open-minded about actually thinking about what more could be done if it's determined that it is necessary?

Yes, absolutely, and thank you for sharing your personal experience in terms of how much your dog has helped you, and I know that that would be the same for so many other people, absolutely. And often we hear about dogs, but it can be other animals—I’ve always seen cats that have been out on the street. And actually, I know that—. I was speaking to a housing support officer recently, who had been supporting somebody who had a budgie, and I think it’s important that we have—. Pets are really important to us and I think that should not be a barrier and actually, if you are struggling, I think that having your pet with you is something that’s really important, isn’t it?

Okay. Siân.

Yes, absolutely. So, one of the things to say is that we're looking at this from the White Paper angle—

Which White Paper?

So, the White Paper on—[Laughter.] I know, to be honest, I'm going to start calling the other one 'the proposed Bill', but this one is the White Paper on the affordable, on fair rents. Am I right, or—?

The housing adequacy, fair rents and affordability.

Yes, that's the one that the White Paper—

I'm with you. There'll be a section on pets in that one.

Yes. So, obviously we had the Green Paper consultation, but also the previous Cabinet Secretary came before this committee as well—and I know you’ve previously taken evidence around pets—and we’ve looked at that evidence as well, as part of the development of the White Paper, so there will be something in the White Paper in terms of how can we improve the ability of tenants to keep pets.

So, the vehicle would be part of the Bill, hopefully, that will come out in the White Paper?

The White Paper will set out how we think we can take it forward in Wales and what legislative vehicle or non-legislative vehicle—looking at exploring different options—that we might be able to take forward.

And that will become clear with that White Paper, which will be at the end of October, so you'll be able to see that shortly as well. But, yes, I'm going to start calling the other one the proposed Bill, because there are a couple of White Papers now, and we're all getting confused on that. That will be coming, and we are aware of the committee's interest in this over a number of years now. I think just trying to get out the message to people that, as I said, you know, Rent Smart Wales, the cost of any damage in properties rented to those with pets is less than the damage in those without pets. If we can all try to get that message out to people, that's all the better, because there's a lot of wrong information going around, I think, that causes difficulties for people.

Yes.

Just to agree with the Cabinet Secretary, as well, Hannah, that it's really positive, isn't it, and encouraging that, when we're discussing a variety of issues now, Members of the Senedd are able and willing to talk about their own experiences, whether it's of mental health or physical health. It's just been such a big and, I think, noticeable change, particularly in this Senedd. It's just so positive for everybody out there, as we all go through life and have better or worse mental or physical health at particular times, that we can just talk about it so openly and freely now. It's hugely—

Today is World Mental Health Day.

—hugely positive, isn't it?

It is. Yes, absolutely.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. Lee Waters. Lee.

Thanks. I just want to go through the approach to empty homes and the various different schemes that you have. So, to begin with, the scheme that you have for individual home owners, the grant scheme. You obviously have a mix of grants and loans. Just in terms of the progress that you're making, I see that 17 of the 22 local authorities are signed up to the scheme from the figures that we have. Do you have any understanding of why the five remaining ones are not?

That is a very good question. I don't know the specifics of the other five, but perhaps Emma might know the detail.

There are various reasons. I couldn't cite individual authorities and their individual reasons off the top of my head, but I'm happy to provide further information on that. Some have prioritised other aspects of increasing housing stock and felt that the grant scheme was not for them at the moment. Some are in discussion with officials about joining, it's an ongoing process. But what we are seeing is very good interest in the grant scheme in particular, and some good progress, with 104 properties brought back into use already and a good pipeline of applications sitting behind that going through the process of seeking funding.

Sure, I'll come back to the pipeline. First, just to better understand why quite a significant part of Wales is missing out on the scheme. As you say, these are local government choices, but it would be interesting if some work was done to tease out whether there are some barriers there that could be overcome, whether or not there's a role for my favourite communities of practice in helping local authorities. Is it still the case that Merthyr Tydfil council is the lead authority for Wales in doing this? Is that right?

Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Sorry, Rhondda Cynon Taf. Quite right. So, in terms of the role they have in terms of working with local authorities who may have barriers, what do they do to try and help local authorities overcome any difficulties they may have?

So, RCT's primary role is administering the grant on our behalf. There are then a number of other mechanisms in terms of sharing best practice. There are some authorities that work together. There is an industry expert that supports work in this area, and we're at the moment developing a handbook to try and help all authorities in terms of the general approaches and the routes that can be taken to tackle empty properties in their area. So, there's a role for RCT, there are a number of local authorities that are working together in partnership on this, and some of them have specialised teams they've set up. I'm aware of a couple of local authorities who share resource in that, because it's quite a resource-intensive activity, tackling empties. So, there's a range of different practice out there, and part of the exercise, and part of the work on the handbook, is about drawing that together to make sure that we share that best practice, in a similar fashion to a community of practice, trying to make sure that everybody is able to see what is working in other areas and adopt that practice and learn from one another.

And being new in post, Lee, I'm really keen to understand—. You know, there are a number of grants in this area and different schemes and I'm keen to understand similar barriers or reasons why, perhaps, others aren't taking them up in the same way. And I think, again, it's trying to get underneath all of that, isn't it, and making sure that the right people are aware of all these schemes that are available and how that all fits together, as well as the best practice that's shared. I think it's important to understand where everybody is.

And some of it will be about capacity, won't it? As you say, Emma, others will just have different priorities for the capacity that they have. So, it's good to hear about the handbook, but the approach that you were describing there seems a little disparate to me, and I just wonder if there is some potential to try and harness that, and potentially have a role for Rhondda Cynon Taf beyond simply administering and to have more of a sherpa kind of role, I guess. Is that something that you've considered?

I think it's also how we work with local authorities on this. So, I'm sure that there are ways that we can look at how we can work better together in terms of making sure that that information is available and making sure that it's getting to the right people. There are lots of these different grants and loan schemes, but understanding why people are doing something—and, like you say, some of it might be capacity—but it's about sharing and doing that with local government, I think, and we all have a role in that.

Sure. But I just wonder if, beyond information sharing, there's a role in understanding what are the pain points that are preventing those five from joining, and are there things that can be done at a co-ordinated level to remove those pain points.

Yes. Absolutely. That is something that is important to do, because, again, getting down to some of that granular detail and understanding the reasons behind it will be really important to make sure that local authorities are able to access the funds that there are available, at the moment, to them, and the reasons why, like you said, and they may be varied, but, yes, we can certainly keep the committee updated on that.

Okay. Can I just push on? There are a couple of things I wanted to touch on.

Can I just—?

Yes.

Just on that, anecdotally, I'm hearing that the process is very complicated and it needs simplifying, in terms of the local authorities themselves now. So, that's anecdotal, so we need the evidence, really, I suppose.

Yes.

I wanted to come on to that, because I wonder if there's a common theme with both Leasing Scheme Wales and the empty homes grant, and whether or not there's some kind of streamlining review that is worth doing, just to understand if these can be speeded up a bit.

I certainly think there is scope, as the Cabinet Secretary says, to streamline the grant and loan landscape that we have around empty properties; it's quite a complex landscape for various reasons. I think, to your point about complexity, the enforcement regime is complex and that's why we've been investing quite heavily in training and support for local authorities to understand their enforcement powers and how they can be used. And we are seeing, although we don't necessarily have data on increased numbers of enforcement actions, there is certainly anecdotal evidence that authorities are feeling more confident in those conversations—

We're not asking about enforcement. This is not about enforcement, it's about accessing the grants.

Accessing the grants. I think, undoubtedly, capacity to simplify and streamline, we've not had significant feedback that the individual access loan, the RCT-managed loan, is particularly complex. But if Members are hearing differently, then very happy to take that feedback. And certainly, the team are in constant engagement with RCT in order to understand what's in the pipeline and what is happening there. So, if there are opportunities, absolutely, we'd be open to them.

Okay. The Leasing Scheme Wales scheme, which I think is an excellent scheme, does seem to take quite a long time to get through the process—there are only 233 properties so far.

So, our experience of Leasing Scheme Wales—. Possibly one of the things that we can learn from Leasing Scheme Wales over to empty homes is that we fund resource within the local authority to run and to set up Leasing Scheme Wales. The experience of most local authorities—and Sarah may have more detail on this—is that the first couple of landlords that they bring on board, yes, it's difficult. The legals around the leasing and all of those arrangements are quite complicated, but most authorities, once they've gone through the first couple, then get into a flow and find it much easier. I think in all of the authorities that are early adopters, they are starting to now see increases. There are some challenges in Leasing Scheme Wales, particularly around benefit rates and whether a landlord will see increases, because it's linked to local housing allowance, which is a topic that the committee has talked about on a regular basis. So, yes, it is challenging in the first instance, but it gets better.

Yes, absolutely. And I think just to add to that, certainly, in terms of our projections of the numbers of homes we think are going to come onto the scheme, it's a slow start in the first year or two, but it really ramps up this year, very much from what Emma was saying, because it's embedded in the local authorities now. They understand how it works. And we've tweaked the scheme along the way as well, very much based on the feedback that we've been getting, including the money that we give to local authorities, so that it better reflects the resource implications on the local authority as well. We launched a communications campaign a couple of weeks back to promote the leasing scheme, because we feel that now's the time to do that, because the local authorities are ready to receive that interest. So we're hoping this year now that those numbers will significantly increase. 

It would be interesting to hear your reflections on how some of the learning from the individual property grant and the empty homes scheme can be iterated, spread and scaled. So perhaps you can reflect on that.

This was always meant to be a push-pull, where you give a grant to make it easy for somebody to convert, but also you then create a degree of pain for those who are sitting on empty properties and are not doing anything, and that's where the council tax premiums were due to come in. I see that 18 of the 22 local authorities have council tax premiums. I don't have granular information about the rate at which they're being levied. I think eight are applying them at over 100 per cent. Do you have information about the different levels at which those extra premiums are being applied on empties across Wales, and whether or not that varying intervention rate has an effect? 

I don't have that to hand here, but we certainly have that data. 

We'll make sure we write to the committee. I think Sarah wants to come in on that. 

I was just going to say I think it's early days in terms of the impact that some of that is having in terms of those different council tax rates—

Well, some of them have been in place for a number of years. Rhondda Cynon Taf had it in place from the beginning.

Some of them have made more significant increases more recently, so some of the data that we're getting through is starting to look positive, but I think it is quite early in terms of some of the data that we're getting through. But we can certainly provide, as Emma said, the committee with the information that we've got.

I think it would be useful for all of us to know, and for you to reflect on, how useful a lever this is—is there a threshold at which it becomes a very useful policy tool, or is it simply a way of raising extra revenue for local authorities. I think that would be a useful piece of analysis.

It does strike me—I'm not sure if I've muddled my figures up here—that 17 of the local authorities are signed up to the empty home grant scheme, but 18 have got premiums. So there's one local authority that is penalising with an extra premium, but not giving them a way out with a grant. Does that sound right to you?

I don't know which local authority that would be. I'm happy to take that away and have a look at it. 

Torfaen.

Is that right?

Torfaen haven't got a council tax premium. 

But this is an example of a council that has a premium, but hasn't signed up to the grant. 

I don't know which one that is.

It's an outlier, isn't it? I'm just interested, with outliers, in what's going on there. There may be a perfectly valid explanation.

In terms of the budget spend, it's obviously a bit lumpy, as you've described, Sarah, the way these schemes come through the process, and you've had to defer some expenditure into the next financial year. This is obviously a challenge for you from a budget management point of view—how you create a pipeline and how you smooth that through. 

If I may, Cabinet Secretary, the profile for the spend was split evenly over the two years. Obviously, that didn't take account of the fact that there is a period of time when you're in set-up and establishing the grant. So the total budget remains the same. I think it's a £50 million commitment, but it is now spread differently over three financial years rather than an equal split over two. So, it's the same investment, but profiled to more appropriately reflect what we believe the spend profile to be. 

And that's all manageable, is it? It's not causing particular headaches for the way that you deal with your budget.

It's been managed, yes, and it's been reprofiled.

I just wanted to ask about the progress on the register of empties, which I think was a programme for government commitment. How's that coming along?

We commissioned that independent research, which will help us establish what small businesses would find most useful in terms of accessing empty town-centre properties. The survey and fieldwork have now been completed, and the first draft of the report is expected shortly.

From a quick Google search, there was a contract in April this year for a review into the empty properties enforcement scheme—that's slightly different to the register of empties, though, isn't it?

Oh, right, yes. Sorry.

It's a separate piece of research that we've just had.

Okay. That sounds very useful. When will that be reporting?

Shortly.

'Shortly'. That's a nice, flexible term, isn't it? [Laughter.]

'Shortly' comes after I don't know what month, but—

Okay. That's a euphemism of choice.

To be a little bit more precise, we've received a draft. We're in that period of reviewing the draft, going back to the researchers for refinement, et cetera, so we're close.

And, as you will know, being a former Minister as well, when you get 'shortly', you don't know what that time could be either, so until you see it yourself, you're not sure whether—

It's like most Government seasons, isn't it? So, then, the register of empties, where are things with that?

That research will inform what is deemed most useful by the sector in terms of a register.

Okay. Interesting. And in terms of training and supporting enforcement officers, which goes back, I guess, to the original question about that centre of excellence, best practice, support, what progress is there on that?

In terms of the enforcement and training, as Emma said in one of her responses, through our industry expert, more than 850 councillors and officials across all local authorities in Wales have been trained on using those enforcement measures to deal with empty properties. It covered a broad range of powers and legislation available to deal with poor condition and empty properties that are having a negative impact on our town centres and local communities. All local authorities were involved in that. There is a wide variance in terms of priority, capacity and expertise within local authorities to deal with empty properties. We know that the training has helped, but we don't know, as Emma said, to what extent that has actually led to any enforcement.

Can I just ask—

You've got to be very quick, Lee. We need to move on.

Okay. It's just in terms of town centres in particular. Obviously, there are a couple of different interventions you have there: there's the Transforming Towns loan, and then there's the transitional accommodation capital programme, which could be used by social landlords. How much of a push is there from the Welsh Government to really ramp up getting town-centre flats back into use? I notice, a year ago, when Julie James gave evidence on this, she said she'd been to an event with you, Jayne, in Newport, where it was being seen as a pilot. Is there a push on that?

Yes, absolutely. When the First Minister did her listening exercise, one of the things that she said that had come up time and time again was around town centres. I think it is about how we feel about the place that we live in, so I think it is really important. I am conscious that I'm sat in the room with two former Ministers with responsibility for this policy as well. But, personally, I feel very strongly, coming into post, this has to be something we focus on—

I know it's important. What I'm asking is whether, in terms of those grant schemes, there's a particular emphasis on getting those numbers up in town centres.

Transforming Towns funding has a specific focus on bringing in residential, along with our 'town centre first' policy and the principle that, within a town centre, we're looking for leisure, for learning, for living—all of those aspects. Property loans through Transforming Towns have been pretty successful over the last four years, with nearly 2,000 units of accommodation brought through in town centres. So, yes, there's a specific focus within the town centre and Transforming Towns funding, and some good success rates.

Okay. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Siân.

Diolch, Siân. We have been making some progress in this area. Changes to the planning framework, or article 4, mean that, in future, residential properties will need planning permission to be changed to second homes, and I think that’s an important way to think of this. That offers, potentially, decisive intervention in managing the future numbers.

We’ve supported Cyngor Gwynedd with resource to prepare the evidence and prepare for practical application. The council really has been a forerunner in this area, and it’s been proactive in sharing the learning and any other evidence that’s coming from that.

The decision to apply an article 4 direction does and must rest with the relevant local authority planning association. So, we have to be mindful of that, and, obviously, this is something that we’re keeping a very watchful eye on.

Diolch, Siân. We’ve got the pilot in Dwyfor, and the pilot is subject to an independent evaluation. There are three phases of evaluation. We’ve got the initial research, which is data mapping and fieldwork. That’s now concluding, with an interim report to be published in November. The next phase is going to be an evaluation of the process about the interventions, and that’s about to commence and run until October 2025. And then, finally, the phase considering the impact of the interventions and their economic and practical effect will run from October 2025 to October 2026. That final evaluation report will be available in December 2026. We are aware that the issues around this are complex. We don’t have a model from elsewhere to apply in our practical context; that’s why that independent evaluation is really important.

Diolch, Siân. I don’t know if officials have any comments, but—

I'm happy to come in on the local mortgages. A considerable amount of work was undertaken looking at the area of local mortgages. I think the key thing to arise out of that, in terms of an actual product, if you like, was the Help to Stay scheme. Although our investigation, as per the programme for government commitment, into whether local mortgages would be deliverable and beneficial didn’t present us with an evidence base that said that there was a gap that the Welsh Government could necessarily fill, it did very helpfully identify the issues that led to the Help to Stay scheme.

On holiday lets, Sarah is closer to some of the detail here, but work is still continuing, looking at both the levy element and a potential licensing scheme, so that work is in train.

Okay, and you're closely involved in that work.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Although, as you say, it's being led by the Cabinet Secretary for economy, obviously, we've got a keen interest and are involved in the governance and the workings, the development of that particular piece of work.

Diolch, Siân. In terms of—. The Welsh language communities housing plan sits with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language. As you say, I have a very keen interest in it, but I think he's scheduled to make an oral statement on Welsh-speaking communities next week. But, obviously, I take a very keen interest, and, as you say, there'll obviously be aspects within that report that we need to look very closely at.

It's early days, I know.

Yes. No, no, that's absolutely fine, and we will take note of that report, Siân, and the subsequent ones that come out of that as well.

Yes, and just to offer assurance, the team are very much engaged, the team that lead on all of this work, both the commission work and the Simon Brooks report, and they sit on both our strategic group and our operational group in terms of second homes policy, so, it's very much integrated into the work that we're doing, and the teams work really closely together. And, as the Cabinet Secretary says, the statement next week will be on Welsh-speaking communities in its broadest sense, so I'm sure will capture the Simon Brooks report as well.

Diolch, Siân. We're aware that the UK Government has made that commitment. In Wales, social landlords have until 31 March 2030 to achieve the higher energy and efficiency standards set out in our Welsh Government quality standard 2023.

Welsh social landlords are already in the process of improving their stock to provide quality, healthy and energy-efficient homes to Welsh tenants through that quality standard. So, we are aware of what's happening at the UK level, but we've got our programme here as well. Sorry, Emma.

Oh, sorry. Yes, not the—

Diolch. I can confirm the minimum energy efficiency standard regulations cover England and Wales, so a regulatory change there would apply in Wales as well. So, we wait to engage on the detail of those regulations.

It is an anomaly—when I can get the word out, sorry—because, yes, it is about housing, but it is about energy efficiency. That's why it is not devolved to us here in Wales and the UK Government makes regulations that cover both England and Wales in that regard. But I think it's fair to say it's our ambition to see the private rented sector energy efficiency improved. There will be a challenge across England and Wales in terms of supporting the sector to achieve those standards in the same way as there is in the social housing sector. The ambition is the same. How we achieve that, particularly with older housing stock in Wales, is a challenge.

If you could continue with the decarbonisation, Siân, and then we'll conclude after that.

Okay.

Diolch, Siân. So, we've been working to develop our approach to housing decarb that will form the basis of our policy package for the housing pathway for carbon budget 3. The work obviously builds on the heat strategy for Wales, which sets out our clear commitment to a low-carbon heating source. Our plans focus on the enabling environment needed for decarb policy in Wales to succeed.

Regarding the publication of the route-map, it is complex, and we're, at the moment, looking at the best way to engage with the sector, so we are hoping and I will update the committee in that way later this term.

Diolch yn fawr, Siân. Altaf. Altaf Hussain.

Altaf, we're unable to hear you—. Oh, please carry on.

Okay. How will the Welsh Government prevent unintended consequences of decarbonisation such as happened with the Warm Homes scheme, which damaged properties in my region?

Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Obviously, we're keen to make sure that we're doing everything that we possibly can to put decarbonisation on a good footing, but I don't know if there's anything particular to add on the previous schemes that have happened in the past.

I think the Member is quite right—thank you, Cabinet Secretary—that there are lessons that need to be learnt from previous exercises. That's one of the reasons for, for example, the new Green Homes initiative that's being launched through the Development Bank of Wales this week, I believe—

Next week.

Next week. It looks at how we can make sure that there is consistency and independence in the advice that is provided so that we lower the risk of people applying the wrong strategies to their homes. Each home is different, so the approach we've taken in the optimised retrofit programme and in decarbonising our social housing stock is looking at individual homes and what is going to work, and that's not just about the fabric, it's often also about the way that the home is used. So, a lot of lessons to be learnt, and really important that we bring those across and ensure that the work is the right work for the property, the right work for the inhabitants of that property, and is well executed and to quality.

Okay, Altaf? Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much. That concludes our first scrutiny session, then, on housing. You will be sent a transcript, Cabinet Secretary, to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Committee will break, then, for 10 minutes, until 10:55.

Okay, we're back in public. So, let me welcome the Cabinet Secretary once again for our second session, this time on local government, with regard to general scrutiny of the Cabinet Secretary's responsibilities. And let me also, as well as welcoming the Cabinet Secretary, welcome the Cabinet Secretary's officials joining us here today. We have Reg Kilpatrick, director of local government; Judith Cole, deputy director of local government finance, policy and sustainability; and Richard Baker, deputy director, land division. Welcome to you all. Croeso.

Let me just begin, then, with an initial question regarding the very important subject of financial resilience, when it comes to our local authorities in Wales. We're moving towards the next Welsh Government budget, Cabinet Secretary, and I just wonder, given all the pressures that we know about, with regard to local government budgets, the demand for services and the history of recent years, where it's become, really, more and more strained in terms of those budgets, and the impact on services, how concerned you are, Cabinet Secretary, regarding those pressures on local authority services in the short to medium term.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Absolutely, and I'd like to say today I fully acknowledge all the pressures that local authorities are under, and have been under, over a number of years, despite the level of support the Welsh Government has been able to give. I've met with local authority leaders already, in a group and some individually, and it's clear to me the severity of the situation. We have been in a long period of austerity and increasing demand on major services. We've had the pandemic, and we've had this extraordinary inflationary period. So, there is little doubt the pressure that we and local authorities are under.

I just want to say that by acknowledging the impact that that period has had on local authorities, and those local authority leaders and representatives and officers. It's meant a huge amount of hard work and dedication from those councillors and officers, and also about the resilience of the sector. We pay tribute to it in the Senedd very regularly—lots of Members do, standing up, quite rightly—but I think it's really important that we continue to acknowledge that, because it is incredible work that they are doing.

The effects of the challenges have obviously been incredibly difficult as well. Councillors are having to make incredibly difficult decisions, services have had to be changed, some have faced reductions, councillors have had to prioritise. Elected members and officers have been under a significant amount of pressure for a long time. So, I think it's really important to acknowledge that pressure, because we all hear it from our representatives, and we all know as well—. And I know Members here who've been in local authorities before.

But, since being in post, I have met, as I said, with lots of local authority leaders, individually and in the group, and there is an amazing amount of really good work that's going on. They've been innovative, they have delivered services, with others, they've engaged within their communities to find new ways of working. So, I don't want to underplay the difficulties that they face, but I do think it's important to recognise the strength of local authorities as well, because they are doing some incredibly good things. So, it's just important to recognise that.

In terms of the financial position, I know that they are considering both their in-year position and their budget planning for the future. They're balancing those key areas of social services and education with other important areas, like leisure, culture and the economy, and we know that we're facing an increasing demand for services. So, they will be planning on a range of budget scenarios, and these will be beginning to be updated, as they, and we, get greater clarity from the UK Government later this month.

Okay, Cabinet Secretary. James Evans. James. 

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, given the recent examples of financial pressures in English local authorities, how does the Welsh Government assess the current financial resilience of local authorities across Wales? Are there any specific indicators or metrics being used by the Government to identify potential risk and vulnerabilities? And can you provide any examples of any Welsh local authorities that may be facing particular financial challenges and how they're going to address them? For example, the Welsh Government conducted a comprehensive financial health check of all local authorities, similar to what the Local Government Association did with the financial sustainability assessment in England. Are there any specific things that you're doing to make sure the financial resilience of local authorities is sound?

Thank you, James. Just to say as well, the WLGA are bringing a paper to the next finance sub-group, on 22 October, outlining the pressures that local authorities are facing and are trying to manage. So, I have discussions with local government on financial and budget matters through the partnership council and the finance sub-group, with the WLGA council, executive and, obviously, individual leaders as well, and my Cabinet colleagues do that as well. There are things that we are doing, in terms of the financial difficulties that local authorities are facing. We're jointly developing, with local authorities, a protocol to apply in case of significant financial challenge. Once finalised, this protocol will be agreed through the finance sub-group. I don't know, Reg, if you'd like to say a little bit more about that.

Thank you, Minister. Just to respond to the question, I think I'd like to describe four things that we are doing as a Government to work with local authorities around their financial sustainability. The Minister has already talked about the finance sub-group, which, for those of you who may not be familiar with what that is, is a group chaired by the Minister. It consists of leaders from local government and the police and crime commissioners—we do the police settlement as well. And that provides a regular, three-times-a-year opportunity for a very honest and frank discussion around financial matters between local government, local leaders and the Welsh Government. Other Cabinet colleagues will join that meeting, so we would also look at pressures around social care, or pressures around education. So, the first thing is that there is a very open and frank dialogue about the financial position. It doesn't just happen during the autumn at budget time, but it happens throughout the year.

The second point I'd like to make is that the Minister meets all leaders of all local authorities at least monthly, and that provides us an opportunity, at the appropriate times of the year, to begin the discussion that the Cabinet Secretary has already talked about around the WLGA assessment of pressures on local government, or local authorities, as we're heading into the budget round, and as those pressures would land next year. So, as we head into our own budget planning process, we have a very clear and very detailed understanding of those pressures.

The third point is that my colleague, Judith, meets the Society of Welsh Treasurers on a very regular basis. Again, that provides us with a detailed understanding of the financial position of each authority, so we can begin to take that into account in our more general improvement and support activity that we run through the WLGA.

I think you ask about individual authorities. Certainly, the Audit Wales reports, the ones that have been published, talk principally about whether local authorities have the right processes in place to manage and to achieve financial sustainability. I think there is more work that could be done there, and I think there are some concerning messages coming out of those reports.

The next point, I suppose, would be the section 114 notices, which you mentioned about English authorities. I don't know, Cabinet Secretary, whether I'll pass over to Judith at this point.

sI'm in danger of talking at length, because I do. Section 114 is a very long way down the road of where a council would want to go. It is not something that they plan to do, it is not something they can choose to do. A section 114 notice, legally, is in the gift, if you can put it that way, of the finance director—the section 151 officer. Only he or she can say, 'You are about to take a decision—or you've taken a decision—that busts the bank'. That doesn't mean they're bankrupt. It does mean a council has to respond in 21 days by setting out a plan. And that is the council's responsibility. 

So, in terms of the individual sustainability of each authority, that is the council's responsibility—to monitor and to keep under review. It isn't something that falls to Welsh Government Ministers, or, thankfully, to me—to check the books of every single local authority. It is for them to make their own judgments about how they come back into balance. If they couldn't find a way of coming back into balance—and there have been occasions over the border where an English authority has had several section 114 notices, because they have had to keep working at it—then there are opportunities for seeking assistance from the Welsh Government. The moral hazard means that we would not be suggesting to the Cabinet Secretary that she opens up the bank, because we haven't got any, but there are technical forms of assistance, and there is an improvement fund, which we give to the WLGA, which they could use before they ever get to the state of a section 114 notice, to explore what capacity or particular expertise might help them get to a point where they can make those decisions. That sounds like I'm washing my hands of the whole affair.

On section 114 notices—and from my time in local government, I can remember the section 151 officer and the Society of Welsh Treasurers meetings—are there any local authorities out there—I'll probably address this to the Minister, but you'll probably have to pass it across to Judith—that are raising flags already that they're coming close to the situation? And also, on top of that, with the section 151 officers, are there any local authorities currently out there that are concerned that their budgets won't be approved, for example—some local authorities that are in coalition, or no overall control, and the section 151 officer may have to take the difficult decision to set the balanced budget for the council, which can be done in exceptional circumstances? Is that coming through from the Society of Welsh Treasurers? Is that a theme that may be coming up that you're hearing, Cabinet Secretary?

As I said, I am hearing about the difficulties that local authorities are facing, and Judith will have had those discussions within that meeting.

I think it's true to say that things ebb and flow, because, as you go through the year, you'll be doing your in-year monitoring. As you go through the year, positions will change. So, for example, councils have been very worried about the technical superannuation contributions adjusted for past experience change on pensions. That's something like £60 million. Not having that confirmed means that, at certain points, the treasurer will be more or less concerned about balancing their budget. They've recently had confirmation that that money is coming down the road, so that takes the pressure off.

The conversations, both internally and externally, are ongoing, but there is nobody who has formally come to us and said, 'We need help at this point.' What we are conscious of is that the sector as a whole is saying, 'It's really difficult', and, therefore, it's sensible for us to have those discussions now about what we would do if they got to that state. And that's why we're working up, as the Cabinet Secretary said, a sort of protocol that says how they would approach us in those circumstances, can we have a no-surprises approach, and what are the sorts of steps we'd expect them to take, and the sorts of steps that Ministers might be able to offer.

I know it's a very busy time for the Welsh Government at the minute, because I know you're dealing with provisional settlements and everything at the minute, as well, with local authorities. Is there any indication of the provisional settlement yet, or is the Welsh Government waiting—I'll probably address this to the Cabinet Secretary—for the UK Government's autumn budget, now, at the end of the month, to then give a provisional settlement to local authorities? Or do you have a provisional settlement already in line, which you're probably working with the Cabinet Secretary for finance on?

At the moment, we're waiting for the announcement from the UK Government. But we are working with it.

There's obviously work being done. 

We are actually doing a lot of work now. At the moment, we're having bilaterals to discuss all of these issues, so it is something that we're obviously working very closely on at the moment. But we are aware that we're going to, hopefully, know, shortly, some more information. Reg, would you like to say a bit about the process as well?

Can I just add to that? You're absolutely right that we, as a Government, are beginning our own budget planning process for the next financial year. That clearly relates to settlements for local government as well. I think, until we hear anything from the UK Government budget at the end of this month, it will simply not be possible for us to determine any allocations. However, the Welsh Government budget will be published, I think, on 10 or 12 December—

The tenth.

Is it the tenth? And then, in the normal way, we would follow that very quickly with indicative allocations to local government. So, we won't be able to begin, or Judith's team won't be able to begin, doing the detailed preparation of those allocations until we have an allocation from the finance Secretary. So, work is ongoing, but it will be a while before we can give any indicative allocations for next year.

It's very difficult, I know, from the other side of the table, in terms of the budget planning process because local authorities are going through budget planning for next year now, aren’t they, so, delays aren’t great, but I can understand where the Welsh Government are coming from—

And I think it’s important in terms of our communication. You know that we’re always constantly working with local government as well because we understand that that is difficult as well, so we do appreciate that.

So just out of interest—sorry, Cadeirydd—if there was, say, a cash-flat settlement from the UK Government, no increases at all, where do the Welsh Government—? They must have done some modelling around this, if no increase comes. What do you see as being the provisional settlement, because, obviously, the formula for local government is an art in its own form, and Judith’s team, I think, do a marvellous job actually working out the local government settlement formula—it’s the dark arts of finance, I think. Are there any changes around the local government formula? I know it is tweaked and it does change. Everyone thinks it never changes, but it does change—

It does change, yes.

—every year. So, I'm just interested in what's going on around that as well to make sure that there's equal distribution across Wales of funding. I'm done then, Chair—I won't hog the meeting again.

Absolutely, James, and I think the first that—as soon as I came into the Senedd in 2016, I was made aware of the funding formula and arguments around that, so I think that it’s—. And I went to the finance Minister at the time—

There are only about four people in Wales who understand it.

And I think, I believe, Cadeirydd, that the committee, in the past, has had a technical briefing on the funding formula.

Yes, indeed.

So, there's always that, as you have new members—there's potential for that perhaps as well. 

Yes, I can't say we're all experts, but the technical briefing was useful.

Absolutely, and so, the funding formula, obviously does come up, and it does come up regularly. And, as you've said, James, you understand the difficulties around that and the sensitivities and it is a perennial issue, but it has to be said that if, maybe, in one case, there are winners and losers in one area or not, and that’s the reality—. And just to say that there are over 4,000 data points within the formula itself, and the largest drivers of service expenditure are population levels, deprivation levels, sparsity, and they’re reflecting the different elements of the formula. So, we are reviewing a number of the biggest areas of the formula, starting with education and social care. So, that is there, but it’s not a quick process.

Sorry, Chair, I've got another question. Because you mentioned social care, it was something that I can remember, when I was on the Welsh Local Government Association, as being an element that was supposed to be, wanted to be relooked at, so a positive as being relooked at. Just out of interest, is rurality being taken into that consideration as part of the new formula, because it wasn't taken into consideration in the old formula, as far as I'm aware? I was just interested if that was something that was going to be looked at. It would be interesting to know your thoughts on that. And I am definitely done now, Chair, unless something else comes out of it.

Well, I'd better answer quickly then, hadn't I? Perhaps, Reg—

Judith is the guru on the formula.

Judith wants to come in on the—.

See, they don't want me to talk. [Laughter.] The Cabinet Secretary is quite right: it is not a quick process. Rurality or sparsity is included in the formula, as it stands now, and on social care in particular. In fact, we amended the formula, going back seven or eight years, to increase the weighting in social care for sparsity, and that was done on the basis of the evidence that showed that it was a bigger impact on the sector than some other aspects.

The work we’re doing now—. So, what we have done recently is we’ve taken into account an awful lot of the changes out of the census that’s just been done. The work we’re doing now to look at education and social care will review the regressions to see whether the weightings and the indicators are still the right ones, and, if so, are there new ones, or old ones, or are they at the same level? That’s going to take us a little while, so it’s definitely not going to be something that we do for next year’s settlement. But I can't see how sparsity wouldn't continue to be a factor in the social care model. Does that make sense?

Yes, that's lovely. Thank you.

Okay, James. Hannah.

Seeing as James got on the funding formula, I thought It'd stick my two-pennyworth in. We've been here before—it is a perennial, cyclical argument, and I think, in my own area, councillors recognise the constraints, and, like you say, with any changes there are winners and losers. So, I welcome the work that's been done, looking at certain aspects to see if there are things that can be done to modify things to support local authorities, because it's become more of an issue over the past years because, essentially, the quantum was getting smaller, so it wasn't quite on the radar in the same way.

I just want to pick up something that I actually raised with your colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance yesterday in the Chamber. One of the things my own local authority, Flintshire, has raised with me is around some of the challenges they face in competing on a workforce basis with some of the authorities just over the border in England—say, Chester, Wirral, Liverpool—and whether some further consideration could perhaps be given in those thoughts around formula support funding around weightings around certain roles to help them be able to compete for the workforce, not only to retain people, but to recruit them to the public service in Wales.

I completely understand your point, Hannah, around workforce, and we do know that that is one of the challenges, particularly in certain parts of Wales where local authorities are very close together, that you can easily go across. If we don't have the workforce—. We're talking about the challenges, but all the services that are delivered by local authorities are incredibly valuable to people in our communities, and if we don't have the workforce, we can't deliver those services. So, something I'm really keen on is how we can build up the local authority workforce in particular areas, whether that is planning, and I've already had discussions about that, as I know my predecessor did as well, but just making sure that we know that local authorities are really good places to work and have good-quality jobs in those areas. 

Cadeirydd, just to say that I remember when I was at school, the only people I remember coming to my school to talk about jobs were Newport County Borough Council. [Laughter.] I thought maybe that was something I could do, work for Newport County Borough Council. It is important to know there are jobs out there, working in local authorities, and I think the more we can do to talk about the great work that they do and the potential for good-quality jobs is crucial. But, as you say, we have that challenge where local authorities are close together and people can move across. I don't know if there's anything anybody else would like to add about the workforce.

I'm not sure that that's come up as an issue as part of the finance sub-group, or certainly the distribution sub-group, workforce pressures.

If I may be forgiven, then, the principle underlining the formula is that we use indicators that you can't actively choose to manipulate. So, the education formula uses the number of pupils, and that inevitably also links to the number of teachers, but the other bits of the formula don't link so directly to workforce numbers, because there are so many different choices a council could make about how it chooses to deliver those services. So, the quantum becomes a much bigger influence than almost anything we can talk about with the distribution formula, and it has gone up, as you said, but it's just not gone as much everybody needs.

Okay, Hannah?

Yes.

Yes, okay. Altaf Hussain.

You referred to a report from Audit Wales on financial reviews, and there is a small number of reports published that local authorities are facing fundamental issues that put financial sustainability at serious risk. Now, Cabinet Secretary, how are you going to address this? You might have plan A, plan B, plan C and so you might be prepared to address these issues. How are you going to do that?

Diolch, Altaf. Well, it's been an important piece of work done by Audit Wales, and I believe that 14 have now been published, and Audit Wales intends to publish a national report once all 22 authorities have been completed. The recommendations in the report that we've had are for each council to consider in the first instance. We have seen that there's a need for improvement and I would expect each local authority to take those reports seriously and those recommendations seriously. It's important that, as Audit Wales identifies, councils are able to understand the impacts of their budgets and service decisions, including their savings and transformational plans. But I do not underestimate the continuous challenge that councils face. The Welsh Government provides funding for improvement and support through the WLGA, and, where a council identifies a need for support, it should approach the WLGA to discuss what support may be appropriate. If necessary, I do have powers of intervention, but, of course, that would be a step that I would not take lightly. I understand that the Audit Wales report has made some specific recommendations, particularly around a couple of authorities, to take action on, and I know that some have already taken some steps to strengthen financial capabilities in the immediate term. Is there anything, Judith or Reg?

I think I would just refer back to the answer that the Cabinet Secretary gave to James earlier on, which is that we have a lot of engagement with local authorities at political and official levels so that we can understand the pressures. And it is worth saying that we welcome the work of the auditor general in this area, because making sure that there are robust and clearly understood processes within councils to do their short, medium and long-term financial planning, is absolutely essential, particularly now when resources are very tight.

Thank you very much. Now, you know that Neath Port Talbot council is in my region and there was the closure of the blast furnace there, and Port Talbot's steel workers—. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to ensuring that the NPT council has the necessary funding it requires now and into the next financial year, to ensure that it provides for the additional demands and pressures on its services, as well as those in the local third sector, resulting from the job losses at Tata?  

Diolch, Altaf. First of all, just to say how difficult this has been for the workforce in Port Talbot and the wider community, as well. It's been a very difficult time. The Welsh Government had seconded a senior official to set up the project management office to co-ordinate support for workers and businesses impacted by the closure. This came to a natural conclusion in September, as the office was established and delivering. The Welsh Government subsidy control team have worked with Neath Port Talbot council to develop the subsidy control framework for funding to provide to businesses. The Welsh Government is leading the supply chain work stream and supports the Neath Port Talbot council team to develop and deliver the grant schemes, providing liaison with UK Government departments that have an interest and the comms work stream supporting Neath Port Talbot council to create and deliver that appropriate communication of activity undertaken to support workers and businesses.

Thank you, Chair.

Okay, Altaf. James.

Yes, before we move on, Chair, from finance, I just want to talk about reserves. There is a bit of a misconception when we talk about reserves—there are usable reserves and there are allocated reserves to other areas. So, I just need to get that clarified. But there are some councils that do carry larger usable reserves than others, and I'm just interested in what financial management the Welsh Government do about the prudent use of usable reserves within local government to make sure that some councils aren't holding on to too much when they actually, probably, should be using reserves in other areas. I know you'll probably say that it's for councils to decide how they use their reserves, but I'm just interested in what financial management the Welsh Government do around the actual usable reserves and not allocated ones. Thank you.

Yes. Can I just say, absolutely, there is that difference and I'm really glad that you were able—

Yes, people don't understand, you know.

—to point that out, definitely? But perhaps Reg can go on to the specifics of the financial management.

Yes, thank you. We understand that reserves are a tremendously important thing for local government not just in terms of being able to plan for the future and to put money aside for developments and projects, particularly capital developments and projects, but also for transformation and how councils can build up, if you like, a war chest or a pot of money that will enable them in really difficult times to undertake service transformation particularly, but also corporate transformation. Our role, I think, is to keep a close eye and to monitor the reserves. We collect information on the levels and the types of reserves in every local authority and publish that every year. It's fair to say we don't have a role in managing those whatsoever. Those are absolutely for local decision making and local financial strategy, and part of that short and medium-term financial planning.

So, we are interested. From time to time, Ministers have written to local authorities, some years ago now, just to reinforce the issue that reserves are a very useful contribution to the transformation agenda. But other than that, as a Government, we would just see these as entirely local issues and local resources to be managed in that way.

Because some councils do tend to reduce council tax increases by use of reserves, which I never used to like doing, because I thought it was a short-term fix for a long-term problem. But I'm just interested—is that something the Cabinet Secretary, with financial management—? I know it's up to local decision makers, which is right—councils have got their independent members who are elected there—but if councils are making shorter term decisions with reserves, is that something you would have an interest in as a Government, where it perhaps may smooth things over for 12 months, but actually in the long term it isn't going to make a great difference?

I think it's, again, part of our discussions with local authorities, isn't it? That's about the relationships that we have with local authorities, and I'm sure that will come up at times in our discussions over the coming weeks and months.

That's fine. I won't press you any more. 

Siân Gwenllian.

Sorry, Siân, I missed the start of your question. 

We've got a task and finish approach, rather than a commission. We've adopted that task and finish approach because we thought it would bring a sharp focus and impose a specific time frame, which runs with a clear set of recommendations. It also reflects the work against the available budget and resources. So it is something that we did look at, but that is why we've gone with a task and finish group. Maybe Richard would like to expand.

My view would be that, to a large extent, it is a commission, to all intents and purposes, but we did not have—. When you establish a commission, it requires a lot more resource and commitments, and the reality was that it wasn't a programme for government commitment, but we still wanted to accommodate this work, so we've done it through a slightly different approach by adopting this task and finish group approach. The members of the group are the same organisations and individuals that we've previously mentioned. They are fully engaged in the work. We've also appointed some independent academic research to drive forward the various work streams and engaging with the community. So, the work is proceeding, but it's just adopting a slightly different approach.

I think we're taking this very seriously, and I think anything that comes out of this task and finish group is going to be really important. It started its work in March, and it's taken the form of this task and finish group; we've got these independent—as Richard has said—academic research and thematic stakeholders involved. It'll be conducted by Cardiff University. It started theng, on 24 September, to understand the challenges faced by community assets, options for ownership and management, and scope proposals to take the community asset agenda further forward in Wales. I think this is an area that we need to look at, and I'm really looking forward to the work that the task and finish group are doing. I think it's important that they do have a real focus. We've got that specific time frame, and there will be clear recommendations for us to act on.

Part of the task and finish group's remit is to review the legislative landscape and how well it's worked, and whether it's genuinely empowered communities. So, it will be looking at that and that will be part of its work. Richard. 

I don't want you to be under the illusion that we're limiting the scope of the work; were not limiting the scope. We're covering the broad range of issues that have been raised previously: the regulatory framework, the finance, the support mechanisms, the skills, et cetera—all the issues that have been raised before; nothing's off limits. In terms of the programme of engagement that's being developed, there are specific workshops et cetera being set up to work through these. And Cardiff University is also reviewing the other legislative frameworks in place in England and Scotland. Again, our view is, I suppose, yes, there is legislation in those countries, but has it worked as well as intended. I think, if we want to bring something into Wales, into the legislation as part of the overall package, we want to make sure that it's legislation that achieves its intended outcomes. So, it's a really thorough review, to make sure that the right recommendations are presented so that there's a pathway forward.

They will be listening to that. That'll be part of the task and finish group's remit, and we'll see their recommendations that come from that.

And that was specifically raised, that particular property, at this week's task and finish group. So, we will be following up. 

I'm sure it was. There are other examples.

Absolutely, and that's why I think it's important that they're looking at this bit.

Diolch.

Diolch. Hannah Blythyn.

Just continuing on the same theme around community assets and the task and finish group—I know that you touched on the remit and the focus—are you content that there is sufficient focus on the areas that, perhaps, people are most likely to want to be brought into community ownership, or most likely to be sold off, at this point? So, obviously, you've got the issues with public buildings like libraries and leisure centres, but also things like pubs, local shops, community centres. They're the ones that I can imagine you too, Cabinet Secretary, get in your inbox from people asking, especially when it's the last remaining such amenity in a village or anywhere within a community or a town. So, is that going to be considered as part of it?

And then the other question I wanted to ask is—. I know, obviously, you've got the right to request, the right to ask, and I've met with organisations who've also floated the idea of the duty to ask—so, when something has been put on the market, maybe there's a mechanism of a responsibility to ask a community body or the community as a first point of refusal, almost, before then it goes to the open market. So, can I ask if there's any consideration, or could be consideration, to that as part of the work?

Diolch, Hannah. Absolutely, and as Siân has raised, and you, we've all got community groups in our constituencies, and we know how passionately communities feel about these community assets. I know the work the committee has done over the last few years on this and the interest that you have on it. Obviously, the Welsh Government aim to protect community facilities. We know the benefit of those in terms of empowering communities, improving resilience, addressing inequality and tackling poverty. So, we do understand that. There's, obviously, a challenge in that, and this is why we've got this task and finish group's remit. On the points included in Hannah’s question, perhaps Richard could talk about the specifics.

The issues you've mentioned are going to be covered, because this is a fundamental review. I think it's important that we don't just focus on legislation as being the answer—there are other thing we need to bring forward. Obviously, we do have a current best practice guide. On asset transfers, we've committed to strengthening that following the work of the task and finish group, but also engaging with communities. The guide is there already, but it needs strengthening, and hopefully that can be then a guide that's adopted consistently across the public sector, at the very least. You've raised issues around assets that are in private ownership, and again that's something that will be covered through the work of the task and finish group.

Because this is something very pressing on so many communities’ minds, isn't it—these big assets that would be good in community ownership.

Okay, Hannah. James.

I want to talk about Sell2Wales, if that's okay, and about research and commissioning. Looking on Sell2Wales’s website, £170,000 was awarded to Cardiff University for the provision of academic research and stakeholder engagement, but this was done without prior publication of a call for competition. They've said they couldn’t put it out for competition and put it on Sell2Wales or put it wider because of—I will get the quote—‘a conflict of interest’. It's one of those things, when we have these public procurement bodies, you would think that, even if there is a potential conflict of interest, you'd put it out there, procurement would be done, and if people do have an interest, it would be sifted out that way. I'm just interested why you decided to go down that route, Minister, and whether you're confident that the process for procuring the services of a contractor to undertake research is actually fit for purpose.

Thank you, James. As you said, the reason for the direct award was because there was a risk there could be a potential conflict of interest with other interested bidders—one of the lobby interest groups might make a successful bid that would challenge the robustness of the evidence provided to the commission. So, that was the reason. I don't know if Reg would like to—. Oh, Richard. Sorry, Richard. I keep looking to Reg. I keep looking to my right.

James, we did follow guidance. We, obviously, engaged with procurement, as you'd expect us to, and that's where we arrived at as a resolution. But again, the other important point to make is that we did issue a VEAT notice on Sell2Wales, where that's—. Sorry, I need to remind myself what that is. It's a voluntary ex-ante transparency notice. So, again, that's where there is not a competitive tender. But that then still gives parties, if they're unhappy, the opportunity to challenge that decision. So, I think we've been quite open in terms of the process that we've followed. And, as I say, we basically follow this process as advised by working with procurement colleagues.

That's fine. If local government decided to do this, not the Government, would the same rule apply? Could they do that, or would there be different rules for local government?

[Inaudible.]

Well, I would anticipate—. I don't know the detail—. 

Perhaps we could—

I would imagine—. I would expect there's a measure of consistency, i.e., they could follow a departure notice process as we did as well. 

Yes, that's fine. I just want to get it on the—[Inaudible.] So there’s no double standards—that the Government can do something because it’s basically the Government’s own procurement arm.

No. It’s a well-established process, in terms of circumstances where a single tender is appropriate, but you need to follow a departure notice process to get it approved within Government. And I would expect that there’s a similar process within local government as well.  

That’s interesting, because, when I was in local government, we had to put everything out to Sell2Wales, even if there was a preferred contractor, and you thought there was bias. So, I was just interested to make sure that there are no double standards, that local government are held to a higher standard than the Government itself. Perhaps it’s something you may want to write to committee on, to clarify.   

We'll check on that.

Yes, I think we can do that, because I'm not familiar with the procurement details, so that would be—. We will write to the committee, if the Chair is happy. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cabinet Secretary. We’ll turn, then, to Lee Waters. Lee.   

Thank you. I suppose, a question, if I can start with, for Reg Kilpatrick. It’s about the most recent Audit Wales report, 'Digital by design?', a look at local government performance on digital. I just wondered if you’ve had a chance to look at it and what your thoughts are on it.

Thank you. Yes, I have had a look at the report. I think it’s a really useful contribution to the whole digitisation and transformation agenda in local government. A number of authorities have got digital transformation plans. Some have a good deal more work to do, as I read the report, although I think most are engaged in some sort of medium to longer-term planning about how they can use digitisation as part of the transformation agenda.

So, the Minister will have views on how we take that forward. But, as an analysis of digitisation, I think it’s a very useful contribution to the debate.  

You say a number of local authorities have digital strategies—the report finds that half do not. And I must say I found it a pretty underwhelming report, with a pretty pedestrian landscape painted of the pace of change in local government. And the reason I’m directing it to you is because, through the Welsh Government machine, this has been a Welsh Government policy for a number of years, and it doesn’t strike me from reading the report that there is a great deal of system leadership, and I just wanted your reflections on that.   

Well, I think I’ve probably got three reflections, if I may. First, Welsh Government's role—we have taken a leadership role as far as we can as the local government directorate, and as the Minister for local government, in making sure that there is a local government chief digital officer. We agreed that role with the WLGA some years ago.    

Yes. 

We have put, I think, over £7 million into that, into supporting that role, into supporting the chief digital officer’s team, and an annual grant award of £1.3 million or so, to make sure that that team and the CDO had the ability to make change.

So, to the extent that that CDO is part of a wider network of CDOs between Welsh Government CDO and the NHS, and also, I think, including the Centre for Digital Public Services more latterly, there is a bit of system leadership there. I think our role—. It would be wrong of us—of me and my team—to begin determining the digital strategies or transformation strategies for individual authorities. We see that very much as a sector-led thing, a sector-led programme.

The trouble is this report isn’t terribly flattering on what the sector is doing.

No. I think it does recognise that authorities are looking at it, but there are some that don’t have the strategies in place at the moment.  

Half, not some. 

Yes, half. Where do we go next? Well, the Minister is meeting the auditor general next week, and this will be one of the discussions—the report will be on that agenda. We are also working with the chief digital officer in the WLGA.   

Is there somebody in post in that role now?   

There is somebody in post. 

Okay. 

There has been somebody in post since November 2022. The original incumbent, the original postholder, Sam Hall, left after a year. There is a current postholder, Lindsey Phillips, who is in there on an interim basis, but we expect the WLGA to be recruiting to that post in the very near future.

And do you think they've been recruiting at a sufficient level, because it's a very competitive field and skillset, particularly working in local government, which is a difficult context at the best of times? Do you think they're taking this sufficiently seriously in terms of the seniority of the role?

I agree, absolutely, this is a really competitive field and I think, when the WLGA recruited initially, they did struggle to get Sam Hall, who was a very good candidate, into post. I don’t know what the salary is that they are going to recruit at. That, as far as I’m aware, has not yet been determined by the WLGA. So, I can’t answer your question directly. I would expect, to get a good candidate, that, when the recruitment begins, there should be a competitive salary.

My slight concern is that, given the discussions that we’ve been having about the pressures on local authorities, both to reduce overheads but also to continue to provide first-rate services, it’s widely acknowledged that digital has an important role to play, and, in a previous report, earlier in this year, the auditor general, in terms of his futureproofing of Welsh public services, made the point that digital public services need to improve. So, there’s a plea there from the auditors to say that this needs to be taken more seriously. Your response is, ‘This is up to local government to do it’, and I’m testing whether or not that is a sufficiently dynamic approach, given how important this is and given how lagging the performance is.  

I would say that we have tried to equip the WLGA with the roles and a considerable amount of money over the last few years that would enable them to—

Well, not really, in the grand scheme of things, because—. More than you were spending before, which was very little, but £4.2 million for the CDPS in this financial year, in the grand scheme of the local government budget, is not a considerable amount of money.

And also the £1.3 million that we give every year to the chief digital officer—over £900,000.

That's £5 million out of a budget of—

The point remains that, in the grand scheme of £5.7 billion, these are very small. The chief digital officer is there to provide that system leadership, that vision, and to lead the local authorities in this agenda, as I say. As part of the network of CDOs with the Welsh Government and with health, I think there is system leadership. The challenge does remain, I grant you, that engaging local authorities at a time when their services are under considerable pressure must be very difficult for the CDO and for the WLGA team to do, but we will be discussing further how they are going to respond to the Audit Wales report.

There seems to be a parallel here—and this is true not just about you and your organisation; it's true about the NHS and elsewhere—where senior leaders seem to think of digital as a technical function, in a way that you wouldn’t think of procurement or audit or whatever other technical function there might be, where the senior leaders would say, ‘This matters—I should be across this; I should be driving this’. And on digital, there seems to be, ‘Well, somebody else is doing it. I don’t really understand it, so I’m content to let them get on with it.’

Well, I agree with your analysis, actually, that this is a very, very significant matter for senior leaders, and I think we would be looking to the chief executives and the leaders in local authorities to be seizing this agenda for exactly the reasons that you have set just out—

And do you ask them if they're doing that when you meet them? Is this an agenda item?

I'm not sure whether we've discussed it at the partnership council. It is certainly something that we will be taking forward on the basis of the Audit Wales report, as I've said.

And, in my role, I'm keen to play my part in that, Lee, because what you say is absolutely right. It can't be left, to say, 'This is a nice to have' or, 'We don't understand it; let's forget about it', but it is important that we work together to do it. Coming new into this, I think it's an area where we do need to see some progress, isn't it?

I just think it's quite telling that you can't exactly recall whether or not it's been on the recent agenda of the partnership council.

Well, I haven't been to—

Yes, I know; I was referring to your official. I think that just underlines my concern, really, that this really isn't anywhere near top of the agenda, and we have now a series of evidence to show that performance is poor. Half of local authorities don't have an up-to-date digital strategy and there doesn't seem to be a great engagement at the senior leadership level to drive this forward. Okay, thank you, Chair.

James.

I agree with some of what Lee is saying, actually. I think some senior officers in councils do get it, but I'm afraid the decisions being taken and being done by councillors sometimes—and sometimes I don't think councillors understand digital as well. I don't think they understand how it's going to improve services. We did it in Powys, we digitalised a lot of our services. I was the lead for digital when I was in the cabinet, and, as an age thing, it probably helped that I was used to using digital services to do a lot of what I did from day to day and it actually helped a lot of the senior officers in the council to deliver that change—

Powys comes out well from the audit report, actually.

And that's where I think you've got to have leaders in local authorities, not just officers, but you've got to identify councillors who are willing to drive this agenda as well. So, I'd be interested to know, Cabinet Secretary, how you think you could do that in your role, to actually empower councillors to have that leadership role as well. It used to be a role within the WLGA, I think, as a spokesperson's role for digital within the WLGA, but I'm not sure what that person actually does, because the money you provide is great, but it's got to deliver outcomes, hasn't it? If the outcomes aren't being delivered, the money isn't actually delivering anything, is it? So, I'd be interested to know those two things: how you measure the outcomes of the money you're spending on the chief digital officer and how you as a Cabinet Secretary can really empower those leaders, the councillors in local government, to drive this change? Because, without them doing it, I'm afraid, you'll have short-term budget decisions made, 'Well, we can't invest in digital, because we've got to do this,' when, actually, it's all about investing to save. I think that's a role for Welsh Government, to do a lot more educating on that with local councils, which I don't think is done enough. Thank you.

No, I agree with you, James, and you're following on from Lee. It is really important, and, as Lee's pointed out to us, Powys is one of the areas that is good. It becomes difficult to understand how that isn't—. If one can do it—