National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Petitions Committee.

Welcome to the Petitions Committee everyone online, as well. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. So, item 1, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I don't believe we have any today.

Jack. 

Of course, yes. Apologies are received from the Chair, Jack Sargeant, Member of the Senedd. And committee members should note any declarations now, or at the relevant point during proceedings. If there are no declarations of interest, we'll move on to item 2, new petitions.

That starts with item 2.1, and that's petition P-06-1419, 'Revoke Wales' National Transport Delivery Plan 2022 to 2027':

'The recent imposition of the 20mph and subsequent public outcry in Wales has highlighted to the masses the ineptitude of the Welsh Government's Transport Plan. The plan itself sets out to substantially abolish personal vehicular transport for the majority of people in Wales with no true reasoning as to why.'

The submitter is Kevin Simmonds and there are 714 signatures from the constituency of Wrexham in north Wales. I'd like to invite Rhys ab Owen to discuss the petition and any actions that the committee can take forth from that. Rhys.

Diolch, Chair. The petitioner here has expressed his views quite clearly and strongly, but, from the response we've had from the Cabinet Secretary, it's clear that the national transport delivery plan will not be scrapped. There is a listening phase, which includes the 20 mph and other areas. He's expressed his rationale for the approach within the policy and also pointed out to us that it was subject to public consultation. Whilst we acknowledge the strong views of the petitioner, it's my submission that we, as a committee, are very limited as to what we can do, following the response by the Cabinet Secretary. So, therefore, it's my submission that we thank the petitioner and close the petition. Diolch yn fawr.

Any other further comments? No. Thank you. So, we will thank the petitioner and close the petition. Thank you very much, Rhys.

We're going to move on to item 2.2, which is P-06-1427, 'Create a sustainable traffic plan for the Rhiangoll Valley':

'1. Reduced speed limits through the village of Cwmdu to 30mph and 20mph past the pub, houses and playground.

'2. Enforcement of exhaust noise regulations with the installation of monitoring and enforcement cameras at both ends of the A479.

'3. Creation of a weight limit for the full length of the road to ensure vibration from heavy freight causes no further damage to historic buildings.

'4. Installation of routes for healthy and environmentally sustainable travel such as walking and cycling.'

The submitter is Tim Morgan, signatures 258, from the constituencies of Brecon and Radnorshire and Mid and West Wales. I invite Peter Fox to take forward the discussion around this petition and any actions that you wish the committee to take. Peter.

Thank you, Chair, and we thank Tim Morgan for submitting this. Many of us will know this piece of road. It's a stretch that is extremely pleasurable to drive along if you want to take in the beautiful scenery of Powys, but it comes, obviously, with its many concerns as well, as has been expressed by the petitioner. And obviously, there are key concerns about speeding, loud noise, heavy goods vehicles and damage to the buildings and things like that. So, there's quite a lot of obvious genuine local concern about this. So, these points were put to the Cabinet Secretary and we can note that the Cabinet Secretary has pointed out several things, highlighted there: setting local speed limits in Wales guidance is currently being updated to reflect current Welsh Government policy and is expected to be published towards the latter end of 2024-25; a review of speed limits across the trunk road network, including this stretch, will follow to ensure consistency with the new guidance. Now, I'm conscious this might not meet favourably or quickly enough with the community. I was pleased to note that Welsh Government officials have met with local councillors to discuss their concerns, and that there will be average speed enforcement and officials routinely monitoring speed data to inform the need for enforcement, and they will be reviewing that data for the A479. So, we can see that local authorities have a duty to prepare active travel network maps and prioritise schemes put forward for funding, and it is for local authorities to prioritise the schemes they put forward.

The petitioner understands why the speed limit was not reduced as part of the 20 mph roll-out, but he emphasises that the community cannot accept that 40 mph through the village is a sustainable situation for the safety and well-being of residents, and makes good arguments as to why it's an unsustainable situation there. So, my recommendation for actions, Chair, would be that we acknowledge the villagers' concerns, but write back to the Cabinet Secretary to ask for timescales of when the GoSafe data—the review on the A479—will be, and when we can expect those results to be published. I think the Cabinet Secretary is very clear that there would be no change to the speed limit until the guidance has been updated to reflect the current policy. So, there is very little more that we can do at the moment, but I think we should try to get that further clarity on timescales around the GoSafe data.

[Inaudible.]—clear. So, we'll ask for that clarity from the Cabinet Secretary, and also for the GoSafe data review on the A479 in terms of when and where that will be published. Thank you very much, Peter, for that action. 

We're going to move on, then, to item 2.3, which is P-05-1440, 'Establish a Welsh under 18 gender service in Wales for Welsh children and young people asap': 

'Following the long term and current poor performance of the English under 18 gender service and their extortionate waiting lists that Welsh children and young people have been subjected to, we (Transvisioncymru) have been discussing with the Welsh Government and Commissioner for Wales for over two years about having our own exemplary under 18 Welsh service. The commissioner wants change too but WG health have not moved forward at all yet.'

The submitter is TransVision Cymru, signatures 544, from the constituencies of Cardiff North and South Wales Central, and I would like to invite Luke Fletcher to discuss this petition and any considerations and actions that you would wish this committee to take forward.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. A lot has happened in this area, but I notice that there are still no firm commitments on satellite options within Wales for these services. So, I'm wondering if it would be possible for us to ask the Cabinet Secretary for an update potentially in six months' time, when she's had the opportunity to start implementing a couple of these things. The bonus of that as well, then, is it gives the petitioner some time to come back with some more comments, perhaps some more questions as well, and as well some more clarity. So, I would propose that we take that route.

Okay. Thank you very much, Luke. And what do the other Members feel in that regard? Are you content with that as an action to take forward? Yes. Yes. Okay. Diolch. Thank you very much. 

Item 2.4, P-06-1455, 'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure': 

'The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has provided a junior music and acting programme to students aged from 4 to 18 for the past 25 years. The school currently sees around 300 talented young people through its doors each weekend, and many of those are on bursaries. It is the only such provision in Wales.

'Due to financial difficulties the RWCMD is being forced to consult on closing the Young Acting and Young Music programmes at the end of this term',

commonly known as the junior department. The submitter is Rebecca Totterdell and there are over 10,548 signatures. The constituency and region is Cardiff North and South Wales Central. At the moment, I'm going to call my privilege as Chair, and hopefully I can lead on the debate, committee, if that's acceptable.

A Welsh Government response has not yet been sought on this petition, particularly because of the immediacy of this consultation and the direct timescale involved, in terms of the closure of this consultation. As some background, it is very, very difficult, if not impossible, to have any musical conservatoire without a junior department; there is no pipeline.

The petitioner has highlighted the impact of the potential closure of the Young Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama junior department, which provides the highest level of education across the board. So, that's curricula, in terms of practical, ensembles, theory, jazz, orchestra, oral and, obviously, individual tuition. If it closes at the end of the summer term, the petitioner states that 112 staff will be made redundant and around 400 students will lose their lessons. The key point here will be the factor that the diaspora in Wales, in terms of our talent pool, who exist within our musical ensembles and orchestras, are often very much often working at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama as well. There is an issue there.  

Approximately 50 per cent of those students receive bursaries at the junior department, many of them paying minimal or no fees. So, if the department closes, many young people will be left without that access to music or drama training suitable for their needs. Parents are obviously very concerned, and the other issue is what is going to happen to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama without its pipeline.

The petitioner argues that, whilst the National Music Service itself provides invaluable provision for children who have lessons in school and music centres, it cannot provide the same pyramid of progression of skills that the junior department is currently offering. Then, also, there's the issue around resources within the National Music Service, in terms of capacity to be able to do such. 

If the department is closed, the petitioner argues that Wales will be the only UK conservatoire without a junior department and, arguably, the only conservatoire in the world without a full junior provision. The petitioner would argue that that is not good enough, and that this will leave Welsh children at a profound disadvantage to their English and Scottish counterparts. There is no parity of funding for the junior department of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama in comparison to England and Scotland, and there is no parity in terms of the Royal Academy of Music, the Royal College of Music, the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, and the Royal Northern College of Music. So, the funding model, the petitioner is arguing, is absolutely integral to being able to move this forward.

So, the submission from the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama highlights the current challenges, which include financial hardship, difficulty in student recruitment and academic delivery. The proposal impacts all of the college's operations, as they plan to reduce overall operating costs by 10 per cent. The staff consultation ends on 20 June—so, it's just ended—with the final decision taken following consideration.

So, given that context and background and the importance to Wales of our culture and our heritage, and the legacy for future generations moving forward, and that this is time-sensitive and does highlight the disparity between the other UK conservatoires' junior departments, how they are funded, and how ours isn't funded in the same model, and the huge potential impact on Welsh children, I would like Members to consider the writing of this committee to the Finance Committee to ask them to very much highlight this petition, because of its impact, during their forthcoming budget priority debate, and also to write to the education Minister and culture Minister to highlight this position and the urgency of need. Is there any other consideration? Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Could I extend that as well to, potentially, a letter to the economy Minister in relation to this? I think that it's important that we get an idea of what sort of impact assessments the Government has done around this particular cut. If we are going to talk about it in raw economic terms, well, culture provides a massive boost for the Welsh economy. So, I think that it is important that we get an understanding of whether or not the Government has considered that as well. 

Absolutely. I think that that's a really, really important point, in terms of the economic impact assessment and the consideration of that in terms of what that does to economic productivity across Wales. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr for that. Is there anybody that has a contrary opinion? Rhys.

I haven't got a contrary opinion, but I appreciate the time-sensitive nature of this. I'd like to see if we can have a debate on this at some point, because this needs to be sustainable for the long term also. This will impact children from poorer backgrounds. It is a very expensive industry. It's very difficult to get on in the industry, and this will impact people perhaps who haven't got the musical background, who haven't got the money in their family. I think it's worth noting, Gadeirydd, that nearly 4,000 of the signatures came from people outside Wales. Wales is famous for being the land of song, but decisions like this do impact how genuine that is. For us to be the land of song, we cannot rest on our laurels; we have to train our young people. By doing this, this decision means that a generation will miss out, and it will impact Wales. You go to Sadler's Wells, you go to Covent Garden, and the stage is full of Welsh singers. You go to Tokyo today, and a Welsh singer from Pencader is singing on the main opera stage in Tokyo. These people are ambassadors for our country. I agree we have to write, but I'd like this to really be discussed further, to show the importance that music plays in the life of our country and to promote our country worldwide. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much. In terms of that going to debate, it does have the requisite number of signatories, and I would presume that that is the course of action that will happen. But I very much support what Rhys has just stated in terms of the importance to us of this pipeline across Wales, both internationally and within Wales itself. So, thank you for those comments, both Luke and Rhys. We will take that forward as actions in terms of writing to the Finance Committee, the education, economy and culture Ministers, and then also in terms of provision for future debate.

As we're speaking to this point, I've been presented with a 10,500-signature petition in order to safeguard and protect the Welsh National Opera. I'm just going to raise that—that this is here today. It's another very salient point in terms of what we need to do to protect the pipeline, the economy and the legacy of music and culture in Wales. Thank you.

I'm going to move on to item 3.1, P-06-1330, 'We call on the Welsh Government to reject their proposals for a council tax revaluation'. The submitter is David T.C. Davies MP, with 3,324 signatures, but 3,304 Wales only. The constituency is Monmouth, South Wales East. I would like to ask Rhys ab Owen to discuss this petition and any actions you wish the committee to take forth. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Last month, the Minister announced that, following a second public consultation, any plans to introduce structural reform to the council tax system won't be until 2028. Therefore, I don't see what more the committee can do at this stage other than to thank the Secretary of State for Wales for his interest in matters within the devolved competence of the Welsh Parliament. I'm sure at least one Member—certainly one Member in this committee—will wish him well next month. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. Yes, we're going to thank the petitioner for his interest as Secretary of State in the devolved matters of Wales. So, we're going to thank the petitioner and close this particular petition.

I'm going to move on to item 3.2, P-06-1358, 'Review the inadequate funding for Schools in Wales'. The submitter is Martin Price, with 7,006 signatures, 6,901 Wales only, from the constituency of Vale of Glamorgan, South Wales Central. I would like to ask Peter Fox to discuss this petition and any actions that you wish, Peter, this committee to take forth as a result of your comments.

Thank you, Chair. Obviously, this petition has been familiar to the committee for some while, right back from September 2023 when the petition closed for signatures at that point, and there's been quite a lot of correspondence and things around this. But you'll know that, only very recently—not too many days ago, actually—correspondence was received by NAHT Cymru, SCL Cymru and NEU Cymru that has brought this petition back to the table. Some of you may recall that the committee took evidence from the petitioner and a range of other people, school governors, et cetera, ahead of the 2024-25 budget round. This letter, which we have in our packs here from the unions, again puts forward the concerns: 

'As the organisations behind the School Cuts website, we are collectively calling for all political parties to commit to a plan to invest the funding needed in education to eradicate all school cuts. To restore funding back to 2010/11 levels in real terms would require investment of around £154 million.'

They go on to emphasise some of the additional issues that schools are facing. I think it would be sensible for this letter to be forwarded through to the Finance Committee, so that we can consider it, perhaps when we look at, or that committee looks at, the next budget round, but also encourage the unions, this organisation, to make representation to the Finance Committee ahead of the next budget round, which will be starting this autumn, as we know. I think if there is a conversation to be had with a further committee, it makes sense for it to be now within the finance realm, as it's lobbying or trying to help the Finance Committee understand the pressures in schools. I don't think there's anything more we can do as a Petitions Committee, and so I would suggest that we close the petition, but as I said, move this letter to the Finance Committee and encourage the organisation to make representations to that committee.

Thank you. We'll share that petition, Peter Fox, with the Finance Committee, and also encourage interaction with that committee and the consultation on the 2025-26 budget in the autumn, and seek to close the petition. Do all Members agree with that action? Yes. Thank you. 

Item 3.3, petition P-06-1367, ‘Fund the removal of quarry rocks and the restoration of sand and groynes to Llandudno North Shore’. The submitter is Ian Turner, with 10,752 signatures online and 1,476 on paper. A total of 12,228 signatures were collected from the constituency and region of Aberconwy and North Wales. I'd like to invite Luke Fletcher to discuss this petition and any actions to follow that you wish the committee to take.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Obviously, this petition was debated in the Chamber, I think on 20 March, and from what I understand it was quite a lively debate. So, I think we as a committee have come to the end of what we can actually do here. But nevertheless, I think we should congratulate the petitioner for actually sparking that debate in the Chamber. There has been ample opportunity, I think, to scrutinise the Minister on what has been said. This is very clearly an issue that's going to be ongoing. It now falls on local Members of the Senedd to raise this particular issue. So, with that in mind I would propose that we close the petition and congratulate the petitioner.

Thank you very much for that. So, we're going to thank the petitioner for actually getting that debate raised and the profile raised in terms of political representation. We'll thank the petitioner and close the petition. Do all Members agree? Yes. Thank you.

We're going to go on to item 3.4, P-06-1378, ‘We want farm subsidies to be extended to small scale and market gardeners’. The submitter is Karen Schneider, with 413 signatures, 349 from Wales. The constituency and region is Monmouth, South Wales East. I'd like to invite, online, Rhys ab Owen to discuss the petition and any actions, Rhys, that you wish the committee to take forward in this regard on this petition.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We're all aware that the sustainable farming scheme has had much publicity over the last few months, and that last month the new Cabinet Secretary announced that the introduction of the scheme will be delayed for a year. The Cabinet Secretary also announced that he'd established a round-table group to work through some of the issues raised by farmers and others during the consultation and the protests. It's unclear whether the round-table deals with the issue raised in this petition with regard to small-scale and market gardeners, but I suggest that we can write to the Cabinet Secretary to seek clarification on whether small-scale and market gardeners are included in the round-table discussion, and perhaps suggest that they are included following this petition. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. So, to write to the Cabinet Secretary to establish if they are represented in the round-table discussions, and how their views are being sought if not. I see that Peter wants to contribute.

Yes, just to support Rhys in that way forward, and to recognise the very salient and key points that have been made here. Through my experience with looking at the Food (Wales) Bill and different things like that, I spoke many times with small-scale farmers or smallholders who weren't able to access subsidies in the same way. If we are desperately trying to encourage a wider food system, we need all players to be able to be part of that system. So, I really do hope that the Cabinet Secretary does find a way to include these people within his round-table and listen to their genuine concerns, because if we're going to have a holistic food system in the end, a sustainable food system and farming system, we need to have all partners in the mix.

Thank you. I would agree. So, the course of action will be to write and establish that clarity. Do all Members agree with the actions taken? Thank you very much. 

Moving on to item 3.5, P-06-1404, 'Increase clarity and rights for people on direct payments or WILG to live independently'. The submitter is Nathan Lee Davies, with 377 signatures, 294 from Wales, and the constituency and region is Wrexham and North Wales. This is a very important and serious petition, as they all are, but this is one that I'm sure will spark a little conversation and debate. I'm going to invite Peter Fox to discuss this and any actions that you wish the committee to take forth. 

Thank you, Chair. It is a very serious petition and subject. We note that the petition closed around February, earlier this year, and that the Welsh Government had responded to the petitioner. We know that the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee wrote back to the petitioners to say that their committee noted the letter at its meeting on 15 May. The Chair shared that they will be starting Stage 1 scrutiny of the Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill shortly, and will give some deeper consideration to the issues raised within this petition, which is absolutely the right place to do that. I know that the petitioner speaks very positively of the work that the committee has been doing and will be, no doubt, wanting to contribute to the process that's going forward as they look deeper into the health and social care Bill. 

I know that the petitioner calls for an advocate or a third-party intermediary in ensuring their rights when this is not being done by local authorities, and highlights the importance of calling local councils to account. He says that there is a lack of clarity regarding the control and spending of direct payment money and he's asking us to pursue that further. And that's a fair point, I think, and it's a fair challenge. He also highlights the positive steps forward that have been made in Scotland, for instance, so there are options for us to do more here.

So, I think my recommendation would be that we do need that further clarity that we can pass on, regarding guidance around control and spending of direct payment moneys, and try to get some deeper clarity around that, so that everybody knows how best to address these things, moving forward. So, I think that's probably the way forward. I wouldn't suggest that we necessarily close this debate at this point, this petition at this point, because I think there is a little bit more work to do on this. Like I say, get some clarity on guidance regarding control and the spending nature of these moneys and then decide, perhaps, how we can help to take a step further forward, if needs be, when we get that response back.

Okay, thank you. So, in terms of seeking that further clarity around direct payments, I think you're absolutely spot-on in terms of direct payments being obscure, and also in terms of the interesting suggestion around the third-party intermediary advocate, I think, is also of merit. I do think it's correct to say that there is a little bit more that we can do around this in terms of the capacity of this committee. I don't know if anybody else wants to come in on that or—. Otherwise, are we content to take that as a recommendation for action? Does the committee all agree on that? So, we're not going to close the petition; we'll keep it open and we will pursue those lines of clarity for the future. Thank you very much to the petitioner, indeed.

We're going to go on further to item 3.6, P-06-1407, 'We want the Welsh Government to rescind and remove the disastrous 20mph law'. Submitter Mark Baker, signatures 469,571, 441,288 Wales only, constituencies Bridgend and South Wales West.

Submitter is Roger Davies—and this is the second petition, which has been grouped together in terms of the theme. So, this is item 3.7, P-06-1412, 'We want the Welsh Government to keep the excellent 20mph law'. Roger Davies, 5,399 signatures, 5,047 Wales only, and the constituencies of Cardiff North and South Wales Central.

Indeed, so, we have two very contradictory petitions that we've grouped together, and, in terms of taking this forward, I'm going to give the pleasure to Luke Fletcher to discuss these petitions, obviously, in the light of the recent debate, and any actions, Luke, that you wish the committee to take forward, would be of great interest to us.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think it's important to make it clear that the petition to rescind 20 mph is the largest petition that's come through this committee. It's difficult to see what this committee can do, going forward. But I also think it's important that we actually note the comments of that particular petitioner, his view that his opinions, and all the opinions of those who signed the petition, haven't been recognised, or, at least, there's a feeling they haven't been listened to. I can understand that, especially given that there hasn't come, from Welsh Government, any sign that they're going to rescind the 20 mph law.

I think it's important to recognise, though, that the Welsh Government is changing its approach to it. They've gone through this review period now. I would like to see where that review period goes. I think we can all agree that 20 mph outside of schools, outside of those places where it makes sense, where there are congregations of people, is important, so, hopefully the review will reflect that. A lot of this now, of course, comes down on to local authorities, and I would recommend that everybody who has particular strong feelings around a particular stretch of road contacts their local authority, so that they can potentially then look at whether or not it is actionable that they put that road back to 30 mph.

It does boil down, to me, on these two particular petitions, that I am unclear as to what we can do as a committee. I'm not sure if there is any advice from the clerks on this, but, as far as I can see it at the moment, we've done our part as a Petitions Committee. The petition to rescind 20 mph was debated within the Chamber, and I understand that people aren't happy with that response within that debate, but, as far as I can see, as a Petitions Committee, we have taken this as far as we can. I think the point that we need to look at now is, actually, what Welsh Government do, going forward. That scrutiny comes down to us as individual Members and to the wider Senedd.

So, in this instance, I would suggest that we do close both these petitions—that includes the one that is supportive of 20 mph—and that we emphasise now that the scrutiny comes to individual Members of the wider Senedd, not just this committee, and also encourage all those who have signed both petitions that, if they have any strong feelings on roads being returned to 30 mph, they should contact their local authority. I'm sure the clerks will be able to provide the contact details for those local authorities, if needed.

Thank you. I don't know if there is anything the clerks want to add to that. I mean, that's quite comprehensive. I think, in terms of closing these two petitions, in terms of the mandate of this particular committee, I think it's the right form of action, and obviously I'm going to ask others to come in in a second. And also, in terms of if the clerks are able to furnish anybody that does contact with local authority contacts, that will be of use, because that listening exercise is there now within the local authorities, if roads are to revert to 30 mph. I agree in terms of that these two petitions are now, I think, at the end of this particular committee's road, and it does now go back into the democratic scrutiny role of individual Members of the Senedd and this place to be able to take forward any further representations. Is there any other comment? Peter Fox.

Yes. I think Luke has got it spot on. We thank everybody who has engaged with this. Obviously, there was a huge debate, as we know, on the back of that huge petition, and I can see, then, why the counterargument then get frustrated that, perhaps, with the number of signatures they had, their voice hadn't been heard in that same way. Hopefully, through the deliberation through this committee, we have heard their views, and we know that the Government, as Luke has pointed out, is changing their direction on this, and I don't think there is anybody who has ever been against 20 mph in the most appropriate places for it to be. We've all been agreed on that. It's those wider extremities of how this affected people that caused so much concern. Hopefully now, when guidance comes forward for local authorities to start reviewing their roads and things, that is the perfect opportunity for communities to start being involved, getting engaged with whatever consultation process those local authorities do, because that is the place now to influence the change for local communities that will affect local people's lives. It's quite right that local decision makers make those decisions in harmony with the local community. So, I think we've finally, after a long journey, got to a place where perhaps we will see some common sense prevail in many communities. I agree, though, that there is very little this committee can do any further.

Thank you very much. Do we all agree on those actions? Thank you—

Just an additional—

Yes, go on, Luke.

—comment, Chair. I think the role of doing this in tandem with communities is important. In my view, it should have started with that, rather than taking as long as it has to get to this point. So, I just would want to put that on the record.

Okay, thank you, and I think we hear you.

Just to note that it's not the end of our consideration of all things 20 mph. There are at least another three or four petitions working their way through the system that will come back to us in due course as well.

But I think it is right to note that this is the largest petition that this committee has received, and to thank the petitioners of both of these unaligned petitions.

As an aside, I think what sums this up completely is that I was called to a site meeting in my constituency where a constituent wanted a road to be turned back into 30 mph, and, at the same meeting, wanted the other area at the bottom of the road to be turned into 20 mph. So, these types of conundrums have to be done hand in hand with communities and with that collaboration, and so I agree with the comments that have been made. Thank you very much indeed.

I think we're going to go into private session. So, that concludes our public business and we'll meet again on 8 July 2024. Thank you very much. We're now going to go into private.