National Assembly for Wales

I'd like to welcome all Members to the meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee today. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? I see no declarations of interest.

We'll move on to the first item on our agenda, and that is the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill. It's our first evidence session. I'd like to welcome Sam Rowlands, the Member in charge of this Bill, and with him, he has Dr Dave Harvey, a member of the Senedd support staff—welcome—and Michael Dauncey, a Senedd researcher, and Jen Cottle, Legal Services in the Senedd. Thank you very much for joining us. As you can imagine, Members have a number of questions to put to you this morning. We'll make a start on some general issues, and first of all, around the need for legislation. Why do you think this legislation is required to ensure that children access residential outdoor education? What problem is the Bill aiming to solve and why isn't policy change sufficient?

First of all, thank you very much for having me and my team with me here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to share this with you. I was really pleased to be able to present the Bill to the Senedd last week. It's a little bit strange being on the opposite side of the desk in a committee, so, at moments, if you could just bear with me as I flick through some of my notes and references to the explanatory memorandum, I'd appreciate that as well.

So, on the particular point on the need for the legislation, I would have thought that Members around the table and online as well certainly would sign up to the benefits of outdoor residential education. We know that there are significant benefits in terms of the effect that outdoor education has on the mental health of our young people and physical health in terms of engagement with the outdoors. We know that there is evidence to show engagement with the environment and the bigger picture, the difference that makes.

I found it very interesting, actually, some of the Welsh Government's own research on this and in particular on the environmental issue. Natural Resources Wales—and it's highlighted in the explanatory memorandum—referred to a natural progression to nature connection and that the first couple of steps of children being out in nature, in our natural environment, suddenly awakens them to the importance of our natural environment. So, those types of benefits are clearly laid out within the explanatory memorandum. We know there are also some really good opportunities, aside from the expected benefits, around things like a better understanding of our Welsh culture, our language as well, and, overall, the potential knock-on effect of all of this on the public purse through social return on investment as well, which I expect there may be questions on later on in this session.

Then, I guess, to the point of why the need for legislation, I suppose, fundamentally, you legislate for what you think is important, and if you want something to be guaranteed, to be certain for people, then you put that into law. We have a case at the moment where, yes, many children do experience these opportunities, but it's not an entitlement; it's seen as an enrichment to their education. I fundamentally believe that these residential outdoor educational experiences do so much for a young person's learning, education, and do so much for teacher engagement in the classroom beyond the understanding of the learner. Actually, there's a huge amount of evidence and, again, it outlines this in the explanatory memorandum, to show that things like four nights away with a classroom teacher builds as much understanding of a learner as a whole year sat in a classroom. We know that the teacher-learner relationship is so important: the better you know your students, the better you'll be able to frame education that is suitable for them as well.

So, the fundamental point is that you legislate for what you think is important. If you want something to definitely be in place, Government will legislate for that to happen. Rather than being something that is a nice to have, a possibility for some learners, this will be a guarantee for every student, at some point in their schooling, to have that great experience and have all the benefits that I've outlined as well.

Thank you, Sam. We're aware that there are some significant changes happening in the education system at the moment; we've seen them with the additional learning needs reforms and the new curriculum, for example. Do you think that now really is the right time to introduce new requirements on schools, when those significant reforms are already taking place?

Yes, I think the time's never been better, actually. This is the perfect time to bring in something like residential outdoor education as an entitlement, because we are still fairly early days when it comes to the Curriculum for Wales, so I think it would be a good time to bring this in within the curriculum. Things aren't set in stone in terms of where the Curriculum for Wales is.

And then the other part in terms of timing is that you, I guess, would have received evidence as a committee already about the post-COVID impact on education and for learners. I've already highlighted the benefits in terms of mental health of this type of experience. We know that the mental health impact on our young people is significant at the moment. I think Government needs to act quickly to bring in measures that support learners at this time, and this is a really good opportunity to help solve some of the issues that our young people are working through post COVID. So, yes, it's good timing from a Curriculum for Wales point of view, but also it's good timing in terms of post COVID as well.

Of course, ALN reforms are an important point to consider at the moment, and my Bill in particular looks to ensure that every child has the opportunity of these experiences, rather than some children being excluded from these experiences, which goes back to that first point about the need for legislation to ensure that every child has this opportunity and some children aren't excluded for all sorts of, perhaps, different reasons.

Thank you, Sam. I'll just bring in James Evans. James.

Really quickly on this point. Legislation is something I take quite a keen interest in, so I was wondering if you looked at the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 to see if there were any regulation-making powers within that current piece of legislation that we have here that could deliver the aims of the Bill without requiring new primary legislation.

My understanding is that, because the way I've framed the Bill is to put it within the curriculum, primary legislation is needed to make the changes to the curriculum, and that's why I've chosen the route that I've chosen. I'm not sure if Jen wants to expand any further on that point on the legislation.

Yes. I think, really, to just echo what you just said there: because of the importance that the Member felt in relation to residential outdoor education, it was felt that primary legislation would be the best way to address it.

Thank you.

Thank you, James. Just finally from me: it's important that local authorities and schools have the flexibility to respond to the needs of learners in their areas. What would you say to people who suggest that the Bill is over-legislating?

I'd suggest that perhaps they read the Bill. The Bill is actually very flexible in terms of what it looks to do and how it looks to provide it. I've clearly set out on the face of the Bill that the guidance to be issued by the Minister must provide that, first of all, it's not compulsory for pupils to attend, so when it comes to flexibility, that is the very first part of that. And then there's a lot of flexibility within there, both for the Minister in terms of the guidance, but then for the schools and the way in which they deliver the principles of the Bill. Because it comes back to this broader point that we need to make sure that—and it fits within the Curriculum for Wales, that teachers are providing a curriculum that best fits the needs of the learners, and the Bill I think clearly does that. So, I'm not sure if any of my colleagues wants to add anything further to that point. No.

Okay, thank you, Sam. We'll move on to questions now from Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. It's great to see you, Sam. I prepared for today by visiting Bryntysilio Outdoor Education Centre just outside Llangollen. I know you're familiar with it, and it's a fantastic place, gives incredible experiences to loads of young people, so I know the value of outdoor education. But in terms of current provision, 'residential outdoor education' isn't defined in the Bill, so are you able to outline what exactly is meant by 'residential outdoor education', and will the lack of a definition result in an inconsistent offering across schools, do you think?

Thank you for the question, Ken, and I'm glad you've been able to get to a fantastic outdoor education centre. On that point, it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge some of the great centres that do currently provide, yes, a great service to our schools and to our young people in particular. I'm glad you've had the chance to get to see one of those.

In terms of the definition of 'residential outdoor education', it's not on the face of the Bill, but I've clearly outlined it in my explanatory memorandum. I'm happy to read that out loud to you, but it may be better for the sake of minutes to say that it's in the explanatory memorandum: paragraphs 20 and 21 outline very clearly what the definition of 'residential outdoor education' is.

Thank you, Sam. The EM also highlights the data challenges in terms of understanding how many children are currently accessing residential outdoor education. Have you been able to overcome the data issues in identifying a need for the Bill and the proposed solution? 

Yes, thanks, Ken. Data was a really interesting point when I first started work on this. I don't mean to take Members back on too far a journey, but my name got pulled out of a hat for this in July 2022. I know a Member in this committee is going through a similar sort of experience that I went through in terms of a private Member's Bill, and it's an interesting journey, shall we say? I identified fairly early on that, like with most of these things, you do need to have data to back up what it is that you're saying. And it became quite apparent quite quickly the way in which to do that. So, of the 22 local authorities that exist in Wales, 21 of them use a system called EVOLVE, which is a system that helps those local authorities to manage the process by which children have these experiences. So, I spent a huge amount of time—or most certainly my team did, and let's give them the credit for this—working with EVOLVE as an organisation to pull out the data that was necessary to provide the information that's outlined within the explanatory memorandum. It's fair to say that a picture grew over time and the first set of data wasn't perhaps what was best or most useful in terms of evidence gathering for this, because, I guess, they hadn't needed to share the level of detail that I was after to inform this Bill. 

I also undertook a survey through the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel—who, I think, off the top of my head, surveyed around 300 schools—as a form of getting data as well. Perhaps, if you don't mind, I'll bring in Dave Harvey into this as well perhaps to talk about the data point because Dave probably did most of the legwork around this, with Michael as well, but I don't know if Dave wants to come in first and speak to the point around how data was used in the explanatory memorandum and how—I think to address Ken's question about overcoming the data issues.

Thanks, Sam. Yes, the initial survey—the statistical overview that the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel did—gave us a snapshot, but the limited number of responses, which is typical for surveys, gave us a picture that potentially emphasised the people, or was responded to by people, who were already attending things. So, we had a figure that said that 5 per cent of schools weren't going. The EVOLVE data, then, when we went to EVOLVE, gave us a much greater depth of understanding in terms of what was actually happening. And Wales is quite unique in terms of the fact that there are no multi-academy trusts opting out of doing things. We haven't got authorities doing all sorts of other different versions of things. So, we've got a very high percentage of data that's actually relevant to what's going on. So, 21 out of 22 authorities gives us quite a lot of confidence in what we've got.

The data that EVOLVE provided us with was many and varied across all sorts of things. The stuff that's in the explanatory memorandum is an overview that is in line with the data protection and privacy policy that EVOLVE have. We've actually got far more richness of data in terms of local authority breakdown and all sorts of things. So, the information that we've got in there, we're pretty confident about—it's as good as we can get at this point.

Thank you. That's really helpful. Sorry, Ken, hold on a second, Michael wants to come in.

Yes, just to add to that, so there's some data presented in the explanatory memorandum, at paragraphs 40 to 42, showing the current levels of how many schools are organising outdoor education residentials. Not only does that show that not all schools are organising them for whatever reason, but also shows that there is quite a lot of variation between different local authorities, and in some parts of Wales—essentially, pupils have more chance of getting to go on an outdoor residential, depending on where they live. It's one of the things that I think the Bill is trying to address.

Yes. And that's the point I guess—it comes back to the fundamental reason why I think the Bill should exist, which is equity of access for all, which I think is something that the Welsh Government would be keen to support as well.

Okay. Ken, and then I'll bring Laura in.

Yes, so what you've just highlighted is very much a social justice issue for young people. Now, the Bill is, I think, generally being identified as something relating specifically to education, but actually, contained within the Bill, would you agree, there is considerable potential for economic development benefits, particularly in rural areas? We could see a rise in employment within the adventure tourism industry, for example. There are also very clear health and well-being benefits and also there are probable benefits in terms of tackling poverty. So, do you think that this Bill should be seen by the Government as something that is a cross-Government benefit rather than strictly being seen as something relating to education and, therefore, the education budget?

I couldn't agree more with that broader point, because the benefits aren't just about the educational attainment that a child will receive as a result of this—it's probably, more importantly, more than that actually. The mental health side in particular—there's so much evidence to show that time in the outdoors—. Instinctively, if I'm a bit stressed, I go for a walk with the dog and I guess that many people around the table may do similar things, but for, unfortunately, a significant number of people who haven't had those experiences of being outside and those outdoor adventure experiences aren't confident to access those spaces that would certainly help them. Sorry, Ken, I'm getting sidetracked. The point is that, yes, it's not just about an education issue. And I was a bit surprised by the Minister's response when he talked about the funding in that, when he responded to my introduction of the Bill last week, he was talking about it within the context of an education budget only. I've never framed it within that at all. I think it's a Welsh Government priority, I just think the best place I think it sits from a legislation point of view is within the Curriculum for Wales. But, absolutely, from an economic opportunity point of view, resilience for the sector, our rural communities, what they have to offer and the sustainability of our rural communities, keeping young people in our rural communities, having these skills and developing this interest will make a big difference in the long run. 

Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. I'll just bring Laura Jones in. Laura.

Thanks, Chair. I was just going to reiterate the same things. Just on the equality point, really, and the fact that this has cross-portfolio benefits, not just education. So, it has already been covered. But the specific point I wanted to make is that we are acutely aware, particularly with our recent review, that ALN and disabled children are more likely to miss out on school trips et cetera at the moment, due to costs and all the other things that come with it. So, this Bill would be hugely beneficial, obviously in that regard, ensuring that they can take part. Thanks. That's all.

Thank you. 

Thanks. Do you want me to respond to that point?

Yes.

Yes, again, the intention of the Bill clearly sets out that this is about access and opportunity of access for all. We need to be careful, I guess, in making sure that we differentiate between ALN and then special schools and the provision that they provide in that, obviously, a lot of our ALN learners are in our mainstream schools, but we do know, from our special schools point of view, of the 30 or so special schools we do have, only nine of those last year enabled this provision to take place. Now, there may be all sorts of reasons for that, but I think, in terms of equity of access and opportunity, this Bill would look to level the playing field. 

Thanks, Sam. Questions now from James Evans. James.

Thank you. Equity of access is really important. Accessing the outdoors is one thing I think every child should have the opportunity to do, and many children love accessing the outdoors. But on the point that Laura Anne Jones said, that many children can't because of disabilities or mental health conditions, you said your Bill aims to do this, but I want to know how is your Bill going to ensure that there is equal access for everybody to access this piece of legislation on outdoor education. 

So, fundamentally, we have to understand why some children don't currently access this, and the research that I've undertaken clearly shows that the No. 1 barrier is financial constraints, because of the cost to many families. And Members around the table, or virtually, may have different experiences of this, depending on the areas they represent. And I guess that's the point that Michael made earlier, that it's because it's not an entitlement, because it is an enrichment, there's such a variation of opportunity across Wales. So, the fundamental answer to that is that this will allow that opportunity because it will be a funded experience. So, the No. 1 barrier being financial constraints, this is the thing that will remove that largest barrier that's there. 

Okay, because in the consultation, one of the barriers that was identified was the cost of—. I know how much a good pair of walking boots cost and a good coat, and they're not cheap, but these costs weren't included on the face of the Bill. So, I'm just wondering why they weren't included on the face of the Bill and how you think that people can overcome that barrier as well to accessing that outdoor education. 

Yes, so, again, I've had a great opportunity over the last 18 months to meet with and visit lots of outdoor education centres, and one of the things I noticed and hadn't appreciated most of all was actually the equipment that they have on site and the availability of that equipment and the expectations in terms of what they would be providing to the children that come along. I mean, I assume, as a committee, you'll be visiting one of these centres at some point to see this at first-hand as well, as part of your evidence taking, but that struck me as something where the equipment they have available to them is pretty clear. Again, in terms of research, the most that you'd expect children usually to have to bring along to these might be a pair of wellies—and actually, for those centres that I've visited, they've explained that they have stocks of wellies available for any children who perhaps can't bring those along, as well. And then, within the guidance that's on the face of the Bill, whilst it doesn't list the actual items that may exactly be covered, the Bill does say that funding must be provided to ensure that these experiences are available. So, the Welsh Minister will

'pay a local authority an amount sufficient to enable the function'

conferred under that. So, if the Welsh Minister feels as though that needs to be adjusted differently, then they're able to do that. I'm not sure if any other colleagues want to say anything further to that broader point? Michael?

Yes. As you said, Sam—and Dave might be able to help me out with this as well—any equipment or clothing that is specifically needed for the activity that's being undertaken would normally be provided by the centre, but if it's something like a coat or suitable footwear, something that is a bit more kind of general and not necessarily specific to that activity, then the expectation is that participants would have those themselves. The Welsh Government does have a school essentials grant, which provides funding to households of pupils eligible for free school meals annually for things like school uniform, other associated costs with education, so maybe that could be used by families to buy things like coats and suitable footwear as well.

So, that would be an additional cost to Government, then, wouldn't it—if this Bill comes in and these were essential items that needed to be provided, it would be an additional cost the Government would have to fund.

But I think the equipment that you'd expect to have to need for the residential outdoor visits would already be available at the centre—that equipment that's required for the experiences that they have to undertake. A child would usually require a coat for school in the same way a child would require a coat to go on a residential. If it's a more significant activity that requires a more substantial, waterproof coat, the centres would be providing those already, as they do currently. And let's not forget this, it's not about a whole new industry being created—many children already have these great experiences, what's trying to be resolved here is that equity of access for all children. So, these centres do currently exist and they do currently provide these great experiences for thousands of children every single year, but that's not available to all children, that's the point we're trying to deal with.

I'm just going to bring Heledd in on this point.

Sorry.

Do you not accept, though, that there is a crisis at the moment? We've heard of people not being able to afford even a pair of shoes for school, and that some children may only have one pair of shoes. The school essentials grant isn't going far enough, because children grow, their needs differ. We've been hearing lots of evidence about people wanting to see that expanded. I take your point in terms of the actual things that are needed, but if you're a parent and your child is going on one of these courses, you get a long list of things that they have to bring. It's multiple pairs of shoes, because in lots of the activities they get soaking wet, and it's not just a pair of wellingtons; it's multiple coats and different types of coats; it's a number of jumpers, and a number of different things. And, yes, they often say that it's old coats. It can include a sleeping bag, a pillow. Also, pocket money, because in many of these centres, you have the opportunity—maybe there's a tuck shop or something, so that's a £10 or £15 cost. I just worry that the school essentials grant, I don't think, will be able to meet that unless it's expanded. So, in terms of those existing barriers that perhaps exist, what other consideration has been given, because I think just removing that cost doesn't mean that parents will be able to meet that long list that's needed? So, to be honest, I was just a bit concerned—. I found that response a bit flippant perhaps.

Okay. I didn't mean it to sound flippant, so apologies if that's the way it came across. You're right, there are real challenges for many families. This Bill certainly looks to remove one of those biggest challenges, which is the opportunity to even go in the first place, and the funding for that in the very first place. Perhaps that's something I'll be happy to receive as a recommendation or feedback from the committee to consider further. I'm absolutely open to that. I'm not saying that everything is perfect within this from day one. But I also think there's probably a conversation there for providers as well, and this is what will be very interesting about this Bill, because if it does go through as part of legislation in our curriculum, there's a more secure conversation to have with providers around the types of expectations, and, to your point, Heledd, in particular, the expectations that they may have on parents. They'll be an even more important partner in this provision for our children, and therefore as an even more important partner, I think there's a conversation that could be had with them as to the expectations they put on children and families for the types of things that would be expected to come along. I expect you'll—. Actually, I know you'll be hearing from some providers. It might be interesting to hear from their point of view about some of the opportunities they see in being flexible with the types of equipment that may be required.

Thank you, Sam. I'll just bring in Laura Jones, before going back to James. 

Thanks for that, Sam. Just building on what you've just said, it would be interesting to have those conversations with providers, perhaps, and maybe look into small businesses or providers themselves in terms of sponsorship or donations in that sort of regard, in terms of all the equipment and things, or even parent, teacher and friends association funding, of course—some schools are very good at that. No doubt this would encourage repeat visits, so it might be something that they feel is a good investment, the providers. Those are just my thoughts. I don't know what you think about it.

Thanks, Laura, for that point. Again, I couldn't disagree with that at all. Perhaps this is a question you may be asking later on as well, but it is an important point around the security of the provision in the long run as well. So, if this Bill was in place, then the whole sector itself would know for certain that a specific number of children will be coming through those centres for x number of years in front of them, so it will allow them to invest better into things like equipment, but also into the infrastructure on the sites as well.

Thanks, Sam. I'll go back to James.

This is my last question, Sam. As you know, mental health is a major thing that I focus on quite a lot here. One thing that came up in the consultation and the young person's consultation shows that there are anxiety issues with children and especially their parents as well, about accessing outdoor education and is it right for them. This isn't addressed in the Bill, but I'd just like to know what you think could be done to address the anxiety issues for parents and children to make sure they can actually go and access outdoor education, because we all know how beneficial being in the outdoors is for the overall mental health and well-being of young people.

I think you're absolutely right to point to the anxiety some people may feel having these experiences. I think there are a few things to consider within this in terms of anxiety. In the explanatory memorandum, I point to a piece of work that was about the concerns that children experience currently in the classroom. I'm just going to read out a quote from that. It's actually the Welsh Government's own research. I'll read out directly from paragraph 28 in my explanatory memorandum. It says:

'School visits, including outdoor education residentials, are highlighted as an area of concern, the guidance further stating that ”missing out on the ability to participate fully in school life due to costs...results in learners' low self-esteem, confidence and wellbeing”.'

So, in terms of tackling areas of anxiety, this Bill would look to tackle that anxiety that learners feel in the first instance, of not being able to access these experiences. The second anxiety that this would look to try and deal with is the anxiety that parents and families feel in being able to afford this for their children. As Heledd pointed to earlier, the letter comes home to parents, and I think for a lot of families that anxiety of being able to pay for that experience must be very real and very significant for them. It probably puts them under pressure significantly, as they seek to ensure that their child has that great experience. That's another area of anxiety and stress that this would look to alleviate. So, there are examples and references within the explanatory memorandum that point to this. 

In terms of that further anxiety, I guess there's a separation anxiety. As a parent of three young children, I know what that feels like when one of my little ones goes away, even for a night, or a few nights away. It can be anxious for me as a parent, and, I guess, for my child as well. But I think it's really important that we help to put things in place that help develop independence. And again, this Bill is not compelling people to have these experiences. If, ultimately, it is a real concern, people aren't being forced to have these experiences. 

And on that point of independence, it was interesting that in Estyn's most recent round of inspections, 64 of the primary schools that were inspected—so 29 per cent of the primary schools that were inspected by Estyn last year—received a recommendation relating to improving opportunities for learners to develop their independence, which will then go on to build resilience in terms of long-term mental health issues as well.

So, I'm not saying that all anxieties would be resolved overnight with this Bill, but I think it does, as I say, to reiterate, go some way to deal with some anxieties of children not having experiences, parents not being able to afford it, and it puts in place a programme where those options are available to build that experience of independence as well. I'm not sure if colleagues want to add anything further to that. 

Just to say that 'anxiety' gets used as a very broad term, and it's actually multifaceted, depending on who you're looking at and what perspective you're taking. I think the question is a big one, because, actually, there are many different bits, as Sam's outlined, that actually start to address each of these different bits. Some of the research says—I can't remember the actual figure off the top of my head—that a high percentage of people have experienced anxiety. When you look at the question, it's 'Have you felt anxious in the last whatever?' So, yes, that then translates that, and I think we have to be careful in terms of that, but we also have to be completely mindful that everything that we're doing, or proposing to do, is actually going to contribute somehow, hopefully, to addressing some of these issues. 

Thank you. Thank you for that, Chair. 

Thank you. We've got questions from Buffy Williams now. 

Thank you, Chair. It's nice to see you this morning, Sam. The explanatory memorandum acknowledges that the Bill does not include children who are educated otherwise than at school and those in pupil referral units. It also says that it is hoped the Welsh Government will consider how they can be offered it. Isn't it a missed opportunity to include them within the Bill's provisions, given that the learners are already likely to be disadvantaged? And how would you like to see the Welsh Government taking this forward? Also, why isn't it included as a requirement on the face of the Bill?

Thanks, Buffy, for that question. I'll be really honest with the committee, this has been something I've really grappled with through the process of this Bill being shaped and being formed, because, as Buffy rightly pointed out, many of those children in pupil referral units, as an example, are the ones who would really benefit from these experiences. And there are some great examples; I'm not sure if the committee will get the chance to look at some of these, but there's a great project here in Cardiff, actually, where Cardiff Council have done some really good work with children who need specialist support. So, I'd recommend, if you get a chance, to speak with Cardiff Council about that. 

But coming back to the Bill, and the face of the Bill itself, it comes back to where I felt best the Bill should fit, and it's within the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021. Within Welsh Government's own guidance—and I'll read this to you—they themselves say:

'Due to their size, their rapidly changing role and the type of pupils they receive, it's impractical to apply to PRUs the same range of legislative requirements that apply to mainstream and special schools.'

So, I think the Welsh Government themselves acknowledge that the way in which PRUs may be treated, from a curriculm point of view, may not always be exactly as maintained schools are. We know that there is often movement in and out of PRUs of learners as well, so trying to manage that, in terms of the access to these opportunities, I think, is a challenge for them as well. But none of what I've done removes the opportunity for the Welsh Government to do this and to provide this opportunity if they felt that that was appropriate and necessary. And, of course, there are other ways in which children are educated that aren't addressed within this Bill either—so, those who elect to home educate, for example. The Bill doesn't look to provide them with the same guaranteed opportunity. So, there are other examples, not just within pupil referral units.

But I'd be interested if the committee had a recommendation around that as well. It was just how do we practically put something within a piece of legislation that is something that I think is deliverable within maintained schools. But I certainly acknowledge there are opportunities within pupil referral units as well. I'm not sure if anybody else wants to add anything to that. I think I'm comfortable with that.

Thank you, Sam. How will the Bill address the ad-hoc nature of current provision? Isn't it a missed opportunity to create a standard offer given the onus will still be on schools to organise residential outdoor education visits?

I'm really sorry, I missed the very last part of that, Buffy. Would you just be able to say that again? Sorry.

Isn't it a missed opportunity to create a standard offer given the onus will still be on schools to organise residential outdoor education visits?

Thank you. I guess there is a temptation to put something in place that is exactly the same for every school across Wales. I think that flies in the face, though, of the intentions of the Curriculum for Wales, which is very much about schools themselves shaping the curriculum for what works best for their learners. So, yes, I think the spirit of the Curriculum for Wales would say that teachers and schools know best for their learners. The reason why there's a lot of flexibility within this is for schools and teachers to seek out the provision that works best for the children—and, actually, the time that is right for their children as well. Because, again, I haven't outlined in the Bill a year group or an age in which I think it should happen. I'm sure the committee knows that there are similar Bills going through the Scottish Parliament and through the Westminster Parliament as well. I know colleagues there have stipulated an exact age. That's not something that I've done, because I think the right thing to do is put it in the hands of teachers and schools as to what they think is best for the children, and what they're learning at the time. It may be a great experience that relates to their area of learning. They'll be able to expand their knowledge and expand their understanding of that learning by having that experience at the right time in the right place. And there are all sorts of different types of centres and experiences you can go to, depending on what is most appropriate for those learners, and I trust teachers to make that decision in the best way possible.

Thank you. Section 2 of the Bill requires the Welsh Ministers to pay a local authority an amount sufficient to enable residential outdoor education to be carried out. The regulatory impact assessment includes costings for teacher cover. Could you explicitly confirm that the cost of teacher cover will be included?

Yes, absolutely. It's a piece of work that's outlined, as you say, within the explanatory memorandum as well. So, going back to the Bill itself—sorry to do this—there is section 2, 64B, the funding bit that you're referring to:

'The Welsh Ministers must pay a local authority an amount sufficient to enable functions'.

And then the guidance sets out how that should look. And then, towards the bottom of the guidance there, it says it may make provision in respect of schools’ staff costs in respect of residential outdoor education. So, I expect assessments to be made by the Welsh Government within this. I've made an assessment of what I think that may look like within the explanatory memorandum; I'm sure Members can refer to that at their leisure. But most of the experiences currently happen within year 6, within a primary school setting. Most experiences—teachers happily go along with their class, because they recognise the importance of that experience with their learners. So, in that setting, it's fairly straightforward; there's often not necessarily the need to backfill in terms of supply. I think for high school it's more complicated, because, clearly, teachers are covering a number of different classes within a high school setting. So, that's why, within the cost section of the explanatory memorandum, that point is made within there. I'm not sure if any colleagues want to add anything to that from the teacher side. Dave.

And the extreme end of that spectrum is the additional learning needs and the special schools, where there is a very high staffing ratio required, and the knock-ons across the school are obviously higher as well. So, the staffing bit is essential at that end, whereas it's less significant at the primary school end. So, there is a spectrum of that provision.

Yes, and, just for clarity, in the explanatory memorandum, the teacher cover costs are calculated within paragraph 209—there's clearly the teacher cost in there.

Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Okay. Questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Yes, I think it's a really important point: there's no point having something in place that can't be provided for. So, I think we are blessed in Wales with the number of outdoor activity centres that there are. I believe that there are around 50 here in Wales at the moment, which is pretty significant, considering the size of the nation that we are. Many of those centres aren't open 12 months of the year, so there's definitely capacity in terms of that; many of them shut between December and March, not necessarily the nicest time of the year for our learners to be out in the wilds—I completely accept that—but there is definitely capacity from a calendar point of view for that.

I did undertake a survey with the sector as well to better understand this. So, if you don't mind, just for a moment just to find that information within here as well—.

So, the—. Just give me one second on this one here. So, yes, of the 50 that we surveyed, the 50 that are in Wales, 31 of them said that they would have capacity for additional residential bookings. The number of spaces spread across those 50 centres—the number of bed spaces—is around 6,000 a week. They acknowledge that it's, as I say, currently not maximised. But, again, the important point, I guess, is that, as I said earlier, if there's a piece of legislation that guarantees an experience for every learner, there's a real incentive for them to invest in their existing estates and existing assets.

It was interesting, I was at Glan-llyn, the Urdd centre, a few months ago, and they have recently invested in their space there. And there are opportunities in places like that for further investment, but they don't have any guarantee that—. It's likely that children will continue to access these experiences, but the guarantee's not there, so it's a bigger risk on their part at the moment. So, I think you are spending some time with at least a representative of providers—I think it'd be a good question for them as well—but my research and my understanding is that there is existing capacity because of the way the calendar is set up, but capacity could be increased also by further investment.

Yes. It's a really important point, and I think it is pretty strong within the Bill already—having it there that they

'must provide that residential outdoor education be provided in Welsh'.

I've had to include 'subject to availability' within there, but that's a challenge I think for the sector to increase the availability, and

'where requested by a school'.

I've noted, with the 'Cymraeg 2050' ambition, schools are looking to expand their use of Cymraeg within the classroom and within learners already. I've observed myself—and I'm sure you have as a committee—that only increasing. And I agree that these experiences are probably some of the best ways in which children can engage with learning Welsh. My own children go to an English-medium school and went to Glan-llyn, because that's what the school want to do and what's best for those learners.

I think schools, with the knowledge that the capacity is there and the opportunity is there, would engage with this, because for them—. I mean, why wouldn't they? Because we all want to see Welsh expanded within Wales and within learning, and this is a great way of them doing that, without having a significant burden on the work that they have to do. The bigger challenge I think is how do we ensure more that Welsh provision is available. I don't know if you're taking evidence from the the Outdoor Partnership. It's a fantastic organisation, who do specific work to train their outdoor pursuit teachers and tutors in Cymraeg. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation though, because you've got to train more people in Welsh with the skills as well, but you also need to make sure that children are accessing those spaces at the same time.

But the broader point is important, and I think it's strong within the Bill. I purposely wanted to make sure it was within here, and not just that the provision is there. You'll notice from the Bill that there's a provision to promote an understanding of Welsh language and culture; I think that's, in some ways, more important. It's not just about learning what the Welsh word might be for 'canoe' or 'kayak' or whatever, it's actually understanding the context around that—the cynefin I think is a really important part of what this is about. I'm not sure if colleagues want to expand on that at all.

Can I—? Yes, I think the provision in Welsh—. To draw back on what Sam said about the Outdoor Partnership, that came from a recognition that there weren't front-line Welsh-speaking instructors in the sector. There were many Welsh speakers in domestic roles, but there weren't them leading sessions. So, the vision, the visibility of Welsh speakers for people and seeing it as an aspiration wasn't there. So, that's what that programme is trying to change, and it's having an effect, and I think they've got data that shows those numbers of people are increasing. So, key to that is engaging people in the outdoors in the first place and seeing it as a viable aspect. So, the chicken-and-egg thing that Sam was talking about I think is really significant. I think there is an opportunity also to engage with providers in terms of how they promote and develop cynefin and develop the language opportunities as well. So, there's a real opportunity here—I agree totally—there's a real opportunity here to develop and expand on that aspect of things. 

It's something, again, that was interesting, visiting the many centres that I did, that they all acknowledged—. Perhaps that’s too much of a sweeping statement. Many of them acknowledged that there is a better opportunity for them to engage with Welsh language and Welsh culture. They were very honest about the way much of the picture has been in previous decades around outdoor residential education—it has been, often times, English local authorities buying a big house in Wales somewhere and children from all over the place coming to have those great experiences from other parts of the UK into Wales. That's served a purpose for a time. I think we’re in a different time now, and I agree that, for the children of Wales, the children that we represent here, having them have these experiences in Welsh, and perhaps in different parts of Wales as well—. Now, there’s a sweet spot with this, because driving four hours with a coach-load of children may not always be the most cost-effective and may not always be the best experience for all involved, there and back. But you can experience, certainly, different cultures within Wales within a couple of hours, I think I would argue. So, it’s getting that balance right. It’s not necessarily about always going to the furthest possible destination across the other side of Wales. But I would agree with the broader point about children having these experiences away from their doorstep.

Just, sorry, on this point, what I’ve been really surprised at is the evidence I’ve received that shows that many children—I guess it’s the risk of assumptions we can make from many of our own upbringings—haven’t experienced what life is like even 10 or 15 miles away from where they live. I had some great conversations with a provider on the Gower, who said he’s always surprised at the number of children who come there from Wales, which has a huge coast, who have never seen the sea, never seen a beach before. And some of these children are coming just from the Valleys—not far away at all in terms of geography. So, I think understanding what that means in terms of having a different experience, and seeing different parts of Wales—for some children that will mean just travelling 20 miles away, and you’ll have a completely different outlook, seeing a beach, feeling the sand on your feet; many children have never had that experience, and it’s a great opportunity to do that.

I think it's fair to say it's something that we chewed over a lot. It comes back, though to, I think, two important points. The first is to remember again that a lot of this stuff already happens. So, coming back to what we're trying to achieve here, it's the equity of access, the ease of access, and removing those barriers for those people who can't access these opportunities. So, there are already existing quality badges and quality assurance schemes that take place. So, the Outdoor Education Adviser's Panel, as outdoor education advisers to schools, provide a lot of the assurance to schools around the quality and the standards of a place that a school may be visiting, that already exist. There are things like the Council for Learning Outside the Classroom quality badge that providers already have as well, and you would have thought—. And the Outdoor Education and Adventure Centre have those assurance schemes with the Council for Learning Outside the Classroom as well. 

Dave, I think you might be better placed to talk to some of this as well, if you don't mind, from your experience? Cheers.

I understand the question, and I think it's great—you can say, 'Well, shouldn't there be something in place that says this is acceptable?' There are schemes already in place. So, quality can be, I think, assessed in different ways, and so there's an externally awarded framework assessment—this is the quality badge that Sam was talking about. If places haven't got those, there is a provider statement that the Outdoor Education Adviser's Panel recommend, and bear in mind that those authorities using the EVOLVE+ scheme have an adviser as well, and the adviser recommends people to use a certain advisory system, and they're using the EVOLVE+ scheme. So, schools have got an obligation to actually assess quality from a basic safety level and through the provision.

There are then the outcomes—so, is it meeting what you want it to do? And part of the Bill, I think, says it's about identifying needs. So, if a school wants to go somewhere and it's meeting what it's trying to achieve, it's got to then assess that, and if you come away from that going, 'Well, that wasn't very good', then that isn't going to result in a return visit. It will result in something, 'Well, actually, we need to think again.'

So, the outcomes—and the outcomes in this case are in terms of the curriculum—give us a framework, and then there's what you feel on the day. If you're looking at somebody delivering something and it's got a brilliant rapport with the students, you can clearly see progress and things, then that is something that means that you go in and say, 'Yes, I can see quality'. And remember, teachers have got quality standards already in mind, in terms of their own experience and their own frameworks that they operate under. So, there are multiple ways that are already in place, and to actually try and create a quality system across the whole sector, when it's so diverse, would be extremely expensive and, I don't think, actually, necessary in my view.

Thanks. Perhaps, Jen, you'd want to make a point, as well, from the legal perspective. 

Yes, just to say there is already legislation in place that applies in relation to activity centres when they're undertaking certain activities, specifically relating to a young person's safety. So, in this Bill, obviously, we didn't want to overlap with legislation that's already in place.

Diolch. 

If I could just say, there is capacity within this, in the guidance, to actually—

Yes, so the guidance issued by the Welsh Government may set requirements that must be satisfied before a person is permitted to provide residential outdoor education. But, I think, as Sam and Dave were saying, it's important to remember the Bill isn't creating this industry from scratch. These kinds of health and safety issues are there, where children go at the moment, as they do, and where they go as part of the curriculum [correction: and will be there where they go as part of the curriculum or not.] Effectively, they still need to be safe, don't they?

Just on the point about the outcomes of outdoor education residentials, obviously, Estyn inspects the way a school is providing for pupils through its curriculum. So, if this, under the Bill, becomes part of the curriculum, that could be included in the scope of general Estyn inspections. I think you have to be realistic about the extent to which an Estyn inspection could look at this issue specifically, but, I mean, the Minister does remit Estyn annually to carry out thematic reports on various aspects of education. So, if the Government was so minded, it could remit Estyn to look at the quality of residential outdoor education. It could do that now to establish a current baseline position, or it could do that in the future if it becomes part of the curriculum, to look at the long-term impact of that.

Just hold on a second, sorry, the translation's coming back now. Sorry, the translation wasn't—

I'm really sorry about that.

You'll have to start again.

Sorry. It doesn't help if people are on and off—

No, it was an issue with the translator. 

Okay.

I think I'd broadly come back to the point that, as with the Curriculum for Wales, it's down to schools and teachers to ensure that what is being provided for the children is what's best for them. I would expect schools and teachers to understand that an experience in Cymraeg is important. We have to understand that the provision in Welsh at the moment is not enough here in Wales, and that's why that's subject to availability. If this became law, overnight or, say, this time next year, there would not be enough Welsh tutors or Welsh language provision here in Wales. So, there's a challenge for the sector and for Government to see how that provision can be expanded. I think it's pretty strong in here; I appreciate that you may not feel that it's strong enough, and, of course, that may be a recommendation of the committee for me to consider, but I think it's strong in here: 

'must provide that residential outdoor education be provided in Welsh, subject to availability'

which I think is a challenge. And I guess your broader point is that, at the moment, it's 'where requested by a school', but I think again, it comes back to the Curriculum for Wales and schools' decision making, teachers' decision making—what's best for their children.

Diolch, Heledd. Questions now from Laura Jones. Laura.

Thank you, Chair. Can I start by saying that it's great to see you here, Sam, and to hear so much more about your Bill, and, obviously, the wide-ranging benefits that residential outdoor education can bring? I was lucky enough to have those experiences myself, and I use the word 'lucky' on purpose there.

I'm going to ask you some questions about costs. The Welsh Government has stated that it has significant financial pressures in respect of its budgets, so how likely do you think it is that the Welsh Government will be able to provide additional funding to local authorities for residential outdoor education? Arguably, we have seen the Government find extra money for, arguably, non-urgent projects recently, so perhaps it's a matter of priorities. But would you also argue that this is a genuine education priority right now, given the wide range of issues that are presenting themselves in education at the moment? You've also touched on, in previous answers, that it perhaps has cross-portfolio benefits, so how much do you think this is a cross-portfolio priority right now? Thank you.

Thanks, Laura. It's a really challenging question around how costs would be met. My initial response, as I presented to the Senedd last week, is that Government finds money for things that it thinks are important and are a priority. The Government has a budget of £22,000 million a year—£22 billion—and the current funding requirement for this, with current levels of inflation, is around £13 million up to £17 million a year. So, from a budget of £22,000 million, this isn't hugely significant within that, I would argue. And the Government also knows that it's going to be receiving over £300 million of extra funding in years to come. Now, there are huge caveats to all of that. I completely appreciate that it's not, perhaps, as straightforward as I'm looking to outline. But there are challenges within education in Wales as well, and I'm really not trying to make a political point here—please forgive me. We saw the PISA results that came out yesterday, and they're still showing that Wales is, of the UK nations, doing less well, whether the Government chooses to take much credence in PISA results, but most countries do. Not only is Wales at the bottom of the UK nations in terms of educational outcomes and attainment, we're falling faster than other nations have fallen as well. So, I think if I was in the Welsh Government's shoes, I'd be thinking, 'What can we do practically? What tools, what levers can I pull to start bringing those attainment levels up?' Now, I'm not saying that residential outdoor education is going to be the saviour of all things that aren't great, but it's a useful, practical tool that makes a difference to children's outcomes.

Top of the rankings for PISA are Singapore. Singapore have residential outdoor activity funded three times in a child's education in Singapore, which is a completely different level to what we're talking about here, but three separate trips are fully funded by taxpayers. Again, I'm not saying that the reason Singapore is top of any listings in PISA is because of that, but I just think it's an interesting observation to make.

So, I would argue that the Government is at a point of needing to pull levers that will make a difference in our schools and for our learners. This is a great lever that can be pulled that exists. It's not creating a whole new industry and a whole new sector; it already exists. It's guaranteeing that experience, in particular for our less well-off learners.

And then, to add, another point on this is the point that you raised, Laura Anne Jones, and the point that Ken Skates made earlier, which is the cross-departmental, cross-budget impact of something like this. The social return on investment information in the explanatory memorandum, I think, is pretty clear, depending on which study you look at around outdoor learning. The study by Social Value Business shows that for every £1 invested in outdoor learning embedded in school practice, there's a £4.32 social return on investment. The Opening Doors to the Outdoors study, a project specifically here in Wales, which was a broader study, showed that for every £1 invested, £7.12 of value was created. A 12-week outdoor programme by Bangor University showed a return investment of around £5 for every £1 that was invested. Now, those things aren't exactly what I'm talking about within this Bill, but what it does show is that for every £1 that's invested in outdoor learning and residential outdoor learning, there is a positive outcome, which is beyond just the educational experience itself.

Sorry for giving a long response to that, but I think it's a really important point, and it's not always easy to quantify. It's not always easy to say that because of that residential experience happening today, tomorrow a child's outcome will be very, very different. It's a longer term approach and—I mentioned it in my speech last week—it's a challenge for the Government more broadly: how does it look to have long-term benefits for all sorts of pieces of legislation? This is a long-term benefit for children in Wales.

Okay, thanks. I'm just going to bring Ken Skates in. Ken.

Thanks, Chair. Cost is the biggest barrier, I think, for this proposal, particularly at this current time, with the state of public finances being more difficult than I've ever known. It's incredibly difficult for Ministers making decisions about their portfolio budgets. I just wonder whether there's any potential at all to draw out funding from trusts or foundations for this. There are organisations that are set up already that, I think, are aligned brilliantly with the principles behind this Bill. I also wonder whether there's any potential at all to establish some sort of umbrella trust to oversee the financing, or support finance for this particular endeavour—a trust that people could give philanthropically to that, perhaps, Welsh and international high net-worth individuals could contribute to. Do you think there is potential to do that, to alleviate some of the cost pressures associated with the proposals?

I think it's a really interesting idea. I know colleagues elsewhere in the UK are looking at similar things. I know that the Scottish version of this looks at a private-public partnership set-up, which I think is a really interesting route to consider. I’ve put this piece of legislation forward to be as straightforward and simple as possible. That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be other ideas or other recommendations that may assist with this, but I tried to keep this really simple, really clear, so it can be really clean, hopefully, going through the parliamentary process. So, I think it’s interesting. Happy to explore the opportunities around that.

And just going back—sorry, just one more point on this broader benefit piece around mental health; I mentioned it last week when I contributed in the Chamber. We can’t forget that the costs, let alone the personal human cost of mental health pressures in particular, but the costs to the public purse around mental health are escalating significantly, and in particular with younger people, so I think any opportunity there is to support those younger people at a human level, fantastic, support the services that are costing taxpayers multimillions of pounds and are only escalating, I think those tools—like this—should be considered.

Back to Laura.

Thank you, Sam. I’m going to move on to a question about that in a minute, actually, but I just wanted to say: I recognise, too, and we all know there is a link between the importance of the social side of school and outdoor experiences, and them having a positive or negative impact on educational outcomes, as we saw only during the pandemic. Are there any parts of the Bill that you do feel are negotiable in order to keep the costs down, in view of the current financial climate, of course, as Ken said? But, for example, the number of nights that are residential, that should be included, or whether the offer should be means tested. Have you thought about those kinds of things, please?

I think it’s fair to say that this could be considered as part of the journey around outdoor learning, so if this isn’t the very end point, or if this isn’t even the start point, there may be ways in which the principles within this Bill could or should be adopted. Whether it is fewer nights, I think, unfortunately, there is a lot of great evidence that shows that that kind of four nights, not necessarily consecutively, but those extended stays do make a more significant difference. Because the first night, everyone’s pretty lively and not necessarily in the learning zone, as it were; the second night, you’re kind of getting used to the experiences, and by the third and fourth night, and those days, really engaging, really getting to know their surroundings. So, there is great evidence that shows that those slightly longer experiences do make a bigger difference. But I appreciate there may be ways in which the costs of this could be reduced, and as I’ve said, and hopefully as you've heard through the evidence I’ve given today, I’m not saying this is perfect in the way it is today, and I’m happy to listen to recommendations from committee.

Brilliant. We like to hear that. Back to Laura.

Thank you. I’m just going to be asking about implementation now. Who is going to be responsible for monitoring the implementation of the Bill? And, obviously, we’ve heard you today talk about the social returns on the cost that’s inputted—the change of life habits and encouraging people to be exposed to the outdoors and outdoor play, for the first time, perhaps, and the mental health benefits, as you just said, which are hard to measure—so, how will outcomes for learners be measured? Thank you.

Thanks. I guess the point here is trying to put something in place that isn’t again a whole new industry. Let me come back to the point recognising that a lot of these activities already take place, and there’s already good tracking within the EVOLVE system, which I mentioned, that 21 out of the 22 local authorities have. There would be a slight difference in that, because this is looking for every individual person to have the opportunity, so that would be tracking an individual person, rather than just the number of trips that a school may undertake, or the number of pupils going on these trips; actually, you’ve got to allocate it to an individual learner. That’s definitely not beyond the wit of man. I have a huge amount of confidence in our local authorities and our schools to be able to put that in place. As I said, they already do that for lots and lots of other things that schools undertake.

I guess on the monitoring of the implementation, there are different perspectives. There’s a Senedd perspective of how would we be confident that the Bill is doing what it’s supposed to do, and I expect committees like this would have an interest in ensuring that that’s taking place. There is an implementation point of view from the schools, and you’d expect governing bodies to have oversight and responsibility for all aspects of children's learning, to have in place structures that give them confidence that things are taking place there as well.

Sorry, the second part of your question, I think I may have forgotten it. What was—?

It was about how will outcomes be measured. How do you find that, considering the social return on it and mental health, changing life habits and things like that? Those are going to be long-term benefits. How are you going to measure that?

It will be the same way in which the outcomes for children in the Curriculum for Wales are currently measured. This is not, again, looking to change the world or completely change the curriculum itself. It's an asset within the curriculum to help learners, yes, to learn. We know there are lots of very good side-effects that are good benefits that would be experienced as well.

Can I just bring Heledd in? Heledd.

Yes, I think they are some of the details that we expect to have to be worked through. I don't have all the answers. I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers here today. The Bill itself—I didn't want to put that level of restriction on the face of the Bill. You'll note that the significant part of the duty is around issuing the guidance and to expect the Welsh Government to be considering how that can practically be worked out.

I think you're right to point out some of the very, very detailed practical challenges that may exist and that's why you may expect a Welsh Government Minister to perhaps be more specific when it comes to the guidance as to how that could be worked out. They may want to indicate that this opportunity will be made in year 6 and, therefore, it's easier to track and manage from that point of view. That doesn't mean that other experiences can't happen. This is not about saying that this is the only experience they're ever going to have; this is just guaranteeing at least one. Many learners have multiple experiences because families are able to afford those multiple experiences, whereas others have none—

Thanks.

Sorry, I won't ramble on.

No, no. Thanks, I'm just conscious of time. We'll go back to Laura now. Laura.

Okay, Chair. I think that the Member has actually answered my final question. Sam Rowlands, you've talked about local authorities having things already in place to track whether children have had the opportunity. It was very interesting in what Heledd Fychan just said about money following the child, not the school. So, I think that that's something that should be looked into perhaps. But on compliance more generally as well, how are we going to track that? Thank you. How do you propose we do that?

Thanks, Laura.

So, Welsh Government Ministers will already have structures in place for all sorts of levels of compliance with different schemes, programmes, projects that they have in place. I don't see this as being anything different to what exists. It's just a different line within that reporting of compliance, to different expectations that Welsh Government would have.

Brilliant, thank you, Sam. I've just got a final question and I'll try to roll it into one. You might be aware that this committee is doing some work around equal access to education and childcare for disabled children, and one of the points that has been brought up to us throughout that inquiry, really, is that there's no specialist provision in Wales for those young people with more complex needs. I'm just wondering how the Bill will ensure that those students would be able to access the opportunities that you've set out in your Bill. And just another side of that is that we've also had some evidence around conditions such as young people who have diabetes, for example, who are in mainstream education, but they're unable to access those residential trips because teachers or support staff aren't able to go with them for that provision. I was just wondering how you're able to make sure that those young people with complex needs and conditions like diabetes, so on two different spectrums there, are able to access the provision that you're setting out in your Bill.

Yes. I think it's a really important point around the specialist needs that will need to be catered for, and that's why, on the face of the Bill, I outline that this provision 

'must provide that residential outdoor education is suitable to a pupil’s age, ability, aptitude and any additional learning needs'.

That's really close to my heart, to ensure that children of all needs have that access. You're right to point out that there is not specialist provision in Wales at the moment. There are specialist centres in England. I had the opportunity to meet with the director of the Bendrigg Trust, who have a centre in Cumbria. I met with them recently, and they were sharing with me some of the work they're currently doing with centres in Wales in terms of training, actually. I'm not going to name names, but they are working with centres in Wales to give them support, training and advice on how they can better support young people with specialist needs.

So, again, it comes back to that if this is a guaranteed opportunity for all young people, you can then imagine a provider understanding that that is going to be there and then being willing to invest in setting up a centre, or existing centres expanding their provision to ensure they're able to cater for specialist provision. In the meantime, there are, I believe, three centres in England at the moment that have specialist provision for people in special schools, particularly on the acute end of provision.

The very specific example that you provided of a child with diabetes, that's not something I've particularly considered at this point. I don't know if there's anything that colleagues have thought about and could respond to to help me out on that.

Can I just say, from experience as being a head of centre, there is no problem from the delivery side in terms of that? But you're right to identify that it's the staff who accompany them, being able to release those people from school, because they often have other roles, and to be able to accompany those people to do that. So, it's about finding a mechanism to enable that to happen. It's not impossible from a delivery perspective; it's that journey.

It's the other side.

Yes.

Brilliant. Thank you. We've come to the end of our evidence session. I hope you've been grilled on this enough this morning. 

Yes, some great questions.

As you can understand, Members had lots of questions to put to you this morning. So, diolch yn fawr. Thank you for joining us. You will receive a transcript to check for factual accuracy in due course, but, again, diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. We'll now take a very short break to bring in the next set of witnesses. 

Croeso nôl. Welcome back, everyone. We'll move on to our second evidence session on the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill. We've got a number of panellists before us this morning. We have Ceren Roberts, director of Cardiff residential centre, Urdd Gobaith Cymru. We have Geraint Williams, deputy director of the Cardiff residential centre, Urdd Gobaith Cymru. We have Graham French, deputy head of the school of education, Bangor University; chair of the north Wales region for the Association of Heads of Outdoor Education Centres; and chair of the north Wales regional committee of the Institute for Outdoor Learning. That's a lot of titles in one, there. [Laughter.] That's a lot of hats you've got on, but thank you for joining us. We have Clare Adams, outdoor education adviser for Monmouthshire County Council and representing the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel for England and Wales. And Mike Rosser, education visits adviser for Denbighshire, Flintshire and Wrexham; project lead for Welsh Government review of visit leader training within further education colleges; and representing the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel for England and Wales. There are a lot of hats you're all wearing, so I hope I've got all your titles right as well. I can see you all looking at me—I'm hoping that I've got them right. Thank you very much for joining us. We very much appreciate it.

Members, you'll know, will have a number of questions to put to you this morning. I'll make a start, just around the development of the Bill. Perhaps you could outline your personal or your organisation's involvement in the development of the Bill. Perhaps it's something you'd all like to say. So, perhaps if I start with Ceren and move along the line.

Okay, lovely. Thank you. Shall we go to Geraint?

Lovely, and then we'll go to Graham.

Wearing some of those hats, I've had the opportunity to—. With the Association of Heads of Outdoor Education Centres, which is effectively the headteachers of outdoor education centres, I was involved in putting together and working with some research for the original explanatory memorandum that was discussed in the Plenary in October 2022. And also with my role at Bangor University, I've led on some of the Welsh Government-commissioned research on outdoor education, around the type of provision and the value of that provision.

Okay, lovely. Thank you. Clare.

Diolch. I've been involved a little bit in some of the research, with my OEAP Cymru chair hat on, mainly around gaining statistics and data and information from our EVOLVE system, but also helping to send out consultations and talking with our headteachers and schools around getting information back for the consultations.

Lovely. And Mike.

Similar to Clare, really; through the OEAP network and the schools that I work with in Wales, disseminating the information on the various consultations and helping collate the feedback.

Lovely, thank you. We'll have some more general questions as well, so don't feel like you all have to answer now on all of them, but it was just good to get on record all your involvement as well. Why do you think the legislation is required to ensure that children access residential outdoor education? And what problems do you think that the Bill is trying to solve? And why couldn't this be achieved through a policy change? So, as I say, don't all feel you have to reply, but if you'd like to indicate to me, and I'll take it up. Ceren.

Mike, did you want to come in?

Yes. I think, to reiterate what Ceren has said, certainly in north Wales I've noticed that while, post-COVID, the number of school visits has risen back to where it was, the number of youngsters participating has often dropped off, and that's due to cost.

I think the other side of it is that, as the advisers' panel, we very much see the residential as part of a continuum. It's what you do in school, how you introduce it, how you take the first steps into your local park. And then during that residential week, you're able to watch the youngsters blossom in different ways. Often, youngsters who are very quiet in a classroom come to the fore, and then they take that experience back to school. And as Ceren said, that very much supports some of the key principles of the curriculum in Wales.

Okay, thank you. Well, we'll move on to questions now from Ken Skates. Ken.

Thanks, Chair. I'm just going to try to extract a few more views on the Bill from you, if I may. Now, it provides a course of residential outdoor education. It doesn't need to be provided on one visit. Do you think that's the right approach, or would you prefer to see it stipulated that a course has to always be delivered over the full four nights and five days?

Graham.

I think the evidence as to where they're most effective is mixed, and we certainly see that there have been cost cuttings that have meant that residentials, where they might have lasted a week in the past, have been cut down to three days, because some schools will say, 'Well, three days is better than nothing.' I think one of the things we're—. I'm certainly keen that this is in line with the Curriculum for Wales, allowing schools to design their own curriculum, to see what meets their local needs and their local resources. So, I think if the Bill had set out to prescribe something, that would be perhaps harder for schools to accept or to implement. At the moment, having read the explanatory memorandum, it seems that this will be in line with what I read is the Curriculum for Wales.

Any other—? Clare.

There have been a couple of bits of research to show the long-term benefits of a five-day residential as opposed to a shorter residential, so I think, in that respect, it's a really, really positive thing to have a longer stay. Although, I very much agree with Graham as well: I think it should be up to the schools to choose, so whether that's doing it as a continuous residential or splitting it into two.

I think also there are issues around transport costs. So, where you'd have a five-day residential, for example, there'd be one transport cost, but, obviously, bigger transport costs with two visits, two separate visits. So, I think it's very much down to the schools to be able to choose.

Okay. Ceren, did you want to add anything?

Okay. Thank you. Ken.

Excellent. Thank you. That's really helpful. Is there an ideal age for children to undertake residential visits, to get the best out of the experience? And, secondly, there is already a lot of evidence that shows the benefit of residential visits, outdoor education, and so do you think outcomes would have to be measured as part of this legislation, and if so, who should be responsible? Or should we just not measure outcomes, given that there is already that sufficient bed of research supporting this sort of activity?

Graham.

I think, if I can come to the question about outcomes first of all, I look at this with in mind the Curriculum for Wales and the four purposes and how do we measure those. So, we don't measure those directly, we don't tick a box, and I'm concerned that if we have a purely outcome measure, we become compliant as opposed to going for quality. I think there's a lot to be said for collecting the views of the children and young people that go on these residentials and actually using that as evidence. We see a lot more of that with the Youth Senedd, with things like Children's University, those projects that are really collecting children's views on their understanding of the education.

It's particularly challenging, because what we're dealing with is—we would say, in academic terms—the 'affective domain', the personal, social learning, and that's not something that can be measured in the same way that we might deal with the cognitive. And certainly some of the research I've led on really goes to say, 'Well, are we just valuing the stuff that we can measure or do we actually work out ways of measuring what we value?', and I think that's quite a key thing. And I see that as valuable in the Curriculum for Wales. So, again, that this would align with that process of thinking creatively. I'm not suggesting we don't measure in terms of making sure that there's value for money in there, in what's being delivered, and that measure of quality is something that probably needs to be addressed, but, in terms of what the outcomes are, I don't think there are clear, objective outcomes that you can gain from this. And I would worry that, if you introduced those, you would go along the lines of compliance, and that would be at the expense of quality.

Lovely. Mike.

When I start some of my visit leader training courses, I say to staff, 'Why do you go away for two, three, four days? Why, when you were there, with a younger primary group, are you still awake at two o'clock in the morning, settling them down because they're full of excitement? What do you gain out of it?' And they'll all smile, and the outcomes will tumble out of them—that they've seen them in a different setting, they've seen youngsters develop during that week, and they've seen attributes that they can take back to the classroom. None of that's written down, but I think, if you went into any school and asked them a similar question, you'd get a similar answer there.

Thank you. Ceren.

Lovely. Ken.

Thank you. Is it fair to assume that, for a lot of young people, this sort of experience would be their only experience of being away from home during the year, and maybe their first experience of being away from home? It effectively might be the first experience that they've had of some sort of vacation or holiday.

Graham.

I think that's a fair comment. I think probably more so since COVID, we see a number of children developing anxiety issues around leaving home, parents being anxious with their children leaving, and this can offer a supported way of helping the children overcome that. Some of the research that was presented in the explanatory memorandum demonstrates some of the added benefits, if you like—the improvement in school attendance and those sorts of things, which are obviously a very serious concern at this point in time. So, I think that development of confidence, of those things that you said just before are a little bit less tangible to measure objectively, but we do see the outcomes of those in those areas, I think probably is something that is really appropriate in this.

Mike.

Just to add to that, and to the previous point, it's often easier practically to work with young primaries, in that you can pick up a whole class year group and take them on a residential. In the secondary setting, it tends to be subject led. So, some subjects, maybe like geography, et cetera, they are more likely to do a residential, some of the PE classes are likely to, whereas others—beyond year 7, it's unlikely to be a whole-school or whole-class experience.

Ken.

Thanks. Just finally from me, is there anything else that you'd like to see in the Bill, or, indeed, is there anything that you'd like to see amended?

Ceren.

Anybody else? No. No, okay. Thank you, Ken.

Thanks, Chair. Thanks, everyone. 

Questions now from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. One thing we've seen in the Bill—it was a previous session that we had with the Member in charge, Sam Rowlands—is the Bill doesn't include any costs for shoes, for additional coats. Heledd and I were talking about this just outside, and Heledd raised it; I've had nephews and nieces go off to do residential stays and they want pillows, they want sleeping bags, like Heledd said, multiple shoes, a lot of warm clothing. Do you sometimes see that as a barrier to people accessing outdoor education sometimes, that parents simply can't afford everything to send their kids on outdoor education? Do you think that's a barrier?

Graham.

It depends on the type of residential. I think there's perhaps a difference between—. I can give you my experience as a parent of the children going on scout camp, where they might be required that. Having known the education centres in the area that I operate in north Wales, I wouldn't say any of them require those things. There's a standard kit. If you look at the children, if you've got photos of children out there, they've all got their red waterproofs and their rucksack, they'll have walking boots provided for them, they'll have a fleece, and some of that is because not only may the parents not be able to afford it, but the kit might not be appropriate, and it's unreasonable to expect a parent who doesn't know about the outdoors—. Actually, look at quite a few of us wearing that sort of stuff today—we joked that it was cold when we came in, but the whole thing is that understanding that is not expected. So, the centres will provide quite a lot of that, and even to the degree that some will provide—. Literally, the children need a change of clothes and their normal school shoes. In the same way that school uniform banks will operate to give to them, some schools have that in operation, where they'll be able to give something for the children to take with them. There really isn't—. And I think that's ad hoc at the moment; it's not an organised process. But I think, certainly with the residential centres that I work with in north Wales, we've not encountered a need, because the centres provide that equipment. Some of that—footwear in particular—you could consider that personal protective equipment when you're out hill walking, to actually be something that it's really important to have for good ankle support, good foot support and keeping their feet dry. 

Clare.

Just to reiterate what Graham said as well, at our centre in Monmouthshire, Gilwern, we provide a lot of the technical equipment, and we also have a bank of clothing for children who don't—that's been left behind, perhaps—for children who don't have that kit as well. So, all of the technical clothing would already be provided, and also bedding as well. Also, I think schools have access to grants—the pupil development grant—that can be used for things like this if they do need extra warm clothes. But, generally speaking, they need to come with their clothes that they're in.

Okay. Thanks. I'll just bring Laura Jones in. Laura.

Thanks, Chair. I put my hand down, because they actually answered that just now. I had the delight of going to Gilwern and Forest Coal Pit, as I'm in Monmouthshire county—I went to school there—and it was wonderful. It's lovely to hear all of you today speaking about the benefits of residential outdoor education. The equipment thing was something I was going to ask, particularly because of—. And whether you'd thought about sponsorship and donations and things like that, but you've literally covered it all, so that's fine. Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Laura. Back to James. Oh, sorry, Heledd, did you—?

[Inaudible.]

Okay. Through the consultation that the Member in charge ran, a lot of parents had anxiety issues about sending their children, and some children also have anxiety issues about going on residential outdoor educational visits. I know when I was younger I was a bit nervous about going and leaving home for the first time. What do you think needs to be done up front to alleviate the concerns that parents and young children have? We do live in an environment now where children are very nervous to do things, they feel pressured to do things by social media and different elements like that. So, I was just interested what you think needs to be done up front to alleviate the worries of children and parents. 

Okay. Mike.

Well, most schools would have a meeting, a parents' evening, before the experience, to talk about what the programme is, what the youngsters are likely to experience, and have the chance to talk to parents on a one-to-one basis. As you say, back in the day, you'd pack your youngsters off, they'd go away for a week, you might get a postcard, and that was it. Now, with social media, some parents are—. It's almost their need to speak to their youngsters as much as the other way around. And schools have different ways of managing that. Obviously, mobile phones within schools are often an issue. But, fortunately, often many of the centres that we go to don't have good coverage. But most schools would, during a week, post pictures and messages on their school Facebook pages for parents or they'll have WhatsApp groups for parents and parents will have the numbers of the staff to be able to speak to them during the week. So, it's partly trying to encourage the youngster to become more independent and take the step away from the hand-holding of school and the parents, but also they do want to feel that they can ask the questions when they want to, or feel that their youngsters are happy.

Yes. No longer a queue by a telephone box. Clare, Graham, and then I'll bring in—go down that way. Clare, you first.

So, yes, in terms of introducing residential outdoor education and ensuring that children and parents are perhaps less anxious, I would very much like to see this potentially as part of a progressive programme of outdoor learning that schools have in place. We're already helping schools with training and advice and information about getting their learning outside and obviously making that a progressive thing throughout the curriculum, so that they are introduced to outdoor learning as they go through primary and into secondary, as just part of a course of the curriculum that they're already experiencing. So, they would be introduced to, perhaps, more risk as they get older and more adventurous activities, perhaps, as they get older as well. But I think that could help to alleviate anxiety in the fact that children are already experiencing some things from an early age and then they can go on to perhaps experience a residential later on.

Some of our schools in Monmouthshire already do a progressive programme of residentials where they perhaps camp on the school grounds earlier in the juniors, and then, perhaps, go up to going away for a few more nights until they get to year 6, potentially, because that's a popular age for going away on a residential outdoor adventurous activity.

Great. Graham.

They've said what I think, so I don't need to say anything more.

There you go. Geraint.

Thanks, Geraint. We'll just bring Laura in. Laura Jones.

Thank you. They're really positive comments about how the centres are preparing to relieve that anxiety, but particular anxiety will come from perhaps those parents with children with additional learning needs or disabled children. How prepared are you to not only support them, but in terms of equipment and things like that at the centres?

Graham.

I think there are perhaps three ways to answer this. One of those is at a very basic level, that the centres will largely be Disability Discrimination Act compliant, as they have to be, legally. So, there's that base level already. I think the other two issues there feature around equipment, as you've just highlighted, and there are some centres that are especially equipped for that. I'm the trustee of a centre in Harlech, where all our rooms are wheelchair-accessible; we have opportunities to hoist children into sailing boats et cetera. Another centre in north Wales, in Anglesey, runs a Sailability programme for the Royal Yachting Association [correction: in Anglesey, has facilities for a Sailability programme run by the SEAS Sailability charity,] specifically for wheelchair sailors. It's obviously specialist provision, and it's not in every centre, but it's certainly something the sector does have the capacity for. I think it's also something to think about as part of a development process. These facilities can be installed, can be brought in.

I think the other issue is around staff training and development, and that's a really important issue. It's interesting, as I've had a Master's student working with me recently, looking at various aspects of neurodiversity awareness within outdoor education centre staff. Now, there's definitely some information there that shows that, actually, quite a few, probably more than the general populace, of outdoor education staff have experienced neurodiverse difficulties, and that's possibly some of the reason they've gone into outdoor education teaching, because they found that mainstream school wasn't quite a good fit for them.

The work that came in from this particular student highlighted that there was actually quite a lot of knowledge, but there needed to be, perhaps, a more central or co-ordinated approach to training and developing those staff. Folk who work with me at the Bangor University PGCE programme gain that as part of their qualified teacher status training. We're the only university in the UK that offers that, at the moment, in terms of the outdoor adventure stuff, but I think there's an opportunity there, and there's certainly a desire, because most of those staff will want to work with and support the children as much as they possibly can. If that involves specialist equipment training, we've got opportunities and access to that. There are specialist providers like that, and then, in terms of training, that's something that, perhaps, the sector needs to look at as well.

Anything else, Mike?

Outdoor centres are well used to asking key questions about diet, medical needs and the additional support needs of any youngster that's coming, and then there's a conversation between the school and the centre. A way of support might be the schools sending additional staff to support a youngster. Occasionally, it may be a parent coming along to help, especially if there are additional support needs, or a youngster has to sleep on their own because they have medical needs during the night—a parent might come and help with that. So, there are a number of ways in which that support can be put in place.

Thank you. James.

I have one additional question, if that's okay.

Yes, absolutely.

We hear time and time again in the Chamber from Ministers, from the Welsh Government, about the significant financial challenges that the budget of the Welsh Government is facing. The Minister, Jeremy Miles, mentioned this when my colleague Sam Rowlands introduced this last week in the Senedd, about the financial pressures they're under. As a sector, you're obviously keen to see this Bill progress. How can you convince the Government that this Bill is required, considering the huge financial pressure that the Government is under, and what wide-ranging implications do you think bringing this in can have for children here in Wales?

Graham.

I think it's a question of equity in opportunity, and that really comes down to priority. I'm not a politician, but I see the children and young people who miss out on this, and I think that's probably about priorities in how we spend money as a nation, what we do with it. We invest quite heavily in our education system. My work in teacher education demonstrates that in what I see with the schools, with the student teachers and how that has been invested in, but I think this is an opportunity to step forward and say, 'Well, actually, we value this. We're not denying the evidence that this is really good and appropriate for young people.' It then seems a bit inequitable that, perhaps, the most affluent get it, and, sometimes, the children who are, for want of a better way of saying it, considered problematic or difficult with their behaviour and some of their needs, those additional learning needs that colleagues have already raised—. But then, there's that big tranche of children in the middle that just get along with things, they're not really having much difficulty, but they're also not able to afford it, and that comes down to that equity issue. Do we want to have a curriculum that is available to all and to give equity and opportunity, or do we want to have something that is, how shall we say it, a postcode lottery and which depends on where you live, what you earn, how much you can afford, I think?

Somebody else want to add anything? Mike. 

I think, as well, there are the long-term benefits, the long-term health benefits of introducing youngsters to the outdoors. When I started teaching in the 1970s, there was a great boom in leisure, in the leisure centres, and I was told we were preparing the nation for greater leisure time, early retirement. Well, that didn't quite work out—we all ate too much sugar and we've got a bit of a health crisis. But maybe this is another start, that we could help take people in the right direction.

Just anecdotally, a few weeks ago, I was at a Newport Gwent Dragons match, and I got a poke in the back from someone who said to me, ‘You’re Mike Rosser. You took me camping 30 years ago in the snow.’ But he went on to talk about taking his family walking, and he wasn’t a climber, he wasn’t a canoeist, but it was just he’d had a little snapshot of the outdoors. Now, that’s just one person, but I’m a great believer that if we provide opportunities, people can pick it up as lifelong learning.

You've convinced me, because you support the Dragons. [Laughter.]

Yes.

Well, somebody has to. [Laughter.]

Yes, so you’ve got a fellow supporter/sufferer here—I don’t know; whatever that is at the moment. It’s not 'glory hunters' at the moment, I don’t think.

Okay, you’ve finished now, James, haven’t you, your line of questioning? We’ll move on to questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Did Ceren want to start, or—?

Okay. Graham.

I think the capacity issue is quite complex. It's more than just thinking about the actual number of beds that might be available. So, if you looked at it like that, you'd say, 'Stats Wales says at the minute that there are 36,000 children in year 6', just as a year group, so that would equate to, over a school year of 39 weeks, about 900 children a year. So, you think about Llangrannog and Glan-llyn and then possibly one other centre, the Conway Centre on Anglesey where I am, and, between them, Llangrannog is 500 or so, Glan-llyn 240, something like that, and the Conway Centre 400. That’s three centres. Now, Ceren raises an important point that not all the centres can take a whole year group, so you’ve actually got to think about how you balance that across. There is unused capacity at the minute, because many of the activity centres are third sector or community interest companies, so they don’t operate when they haven’t got clients. So, many of them will be closed now, for instance, in December and January. There’s some great work that shows how beneficial winter residentials are—despite needing a few more fleeces and layers—but there is unused capacity in the sector at the minute, and that also reflects on the models of staffing, where people might employ seasonal staff, and actually having centres operating over a longer period would actually give greater consistency there as well.

So, I think, at a basic level, there does appear to be that capacity. It’s certainly nuanced, and I think, probably, if I can build on that, something we’ve talked about before is also the capacity to deliver through the medium of Welsh. That probably is something that is not there at the moment for those that might need that. We can’t rely on the Urdd to do all of that. There are other centres that can deliver and do deliver—the centre where Mike is, the Conway—but I think that issue of capacity is complex. I think there is the capacity there—thinking if you’ve got a school group that already goes but they only take 15 of their children, but if they go with 30 of their children, the physical beds are there, because most centres will have a sole occupancy or certainly they have blocks with sole occupancy for safeguarding reasons. So, the instructional staff should be there to be able to take those on. So, I think it’s more nuanced than just ‘there is or there isn’t’, ‘there is in some areas and there isn’t in some areas’. And then you have the geographical issue of who goes to which area of the country. Sorry, if that wasn’t a direct answer to your question, I hope it’s given you some information.

I can answer that. Yes, and I’m very pleased to tell you that there is now a career pathway that exists. For a student who’s 14 who decides they want to work in the outdoors, there are pathways to take them to qualified teacher status. They can do the Agored Cymru level 2 programme in the outdoors. Again, this also helps with our bilingual provision, because they’re all available in English and Welsh. Recently, this year, this September, a number of us wrote, and it’s been launched, an Agored Cymru level 3 qualification. There are degree programmes available at Trinity and Bangor, where you can do a degree in the outdoors, and then you can carry on to postgraduate study at Bangor. So, there are pathways in place. As I said, the Agored level 3 has only been going this year, so we’re going to see that in a few years. But in terms of sustainability, we also see the work of the outdoor partnership that operated originally in north Wales. You might be aware of them as a charitable organisation. We're seeing some of those impact now, and that's 20 years on from some of the work that was done then, and a lot of that was about giving the opportunity to local people, providing professional training courses through the medium of Welsh because they weren't there before to encourage those. So, longer term, I think, yes, what you say would be very true and there are pathways in place already that will then blossom into that.

Diolch. 

Ceren.

I think that's something where we'd need to do some scoping work to find out what the actual capacity was in terms of—. At the start of this, with the Association of Heads of Outdoor Education Centres, we were able to look at the actual capacity in terms of the number of beds, but also you've got, as we said earlier, the specialist equipment and the specialist training. So, I think, yes, there would potentially—in the same way we've talked about there maybe being a need in terms of Welsh language provision, it would be important to make sure that we're giving children high-quality outdoor learning experiences so that they can experience that whatever their need is. And I think a lot of people think of that in a wheelchair user capacity, but we're also thinking about children who are visually impaired or hearing impaired as well, and that can have a significant impact on how they experience the outdoors. But I think there's definitely the will to do that within the sector, and not from a financial point of view, if I can make it as blunt as that, but from an altruistic point of view, that many people are keen that as many young people as possible have these outdoor experiences. 

Okay, thank you, Heledd. Diolch, Heledd. Questions now from Laura Jones. Laura.

Thank you. It has been very interesting today so far. Thanks for your input. One of the fantastic aims of the Bill, as you've outlined already, is the equality of opportunity and experiences for all people. What is your view on setting a minimum level of requirement for providers of residential outdoor education to meet before they provide visits for schools? And what do you think the benefits and drawbacks would be from your perspective? I'm thinking of the equipment for disabled people, which you've already mentioned. 

Mike.

There are a number of existing accreditations for providers of outdoor activities at the moment. One key one is the learning outside the classroom quality badge, which looks at safety and quality delivery across a whole range of activities. And that goes from museums to companies that might take you to Everest base camp, with residential centres in the middle. There's only one statutory requirement. If you're delivering hill walking, rock climbing, paddle sports, caving to under-18-year-olds, there is a Health and Safety Executive adventure activities licence. As outdoor advisers, if a provider doesn't hold any of those accreditations because they don't fall into the statutory requirement and they haven't opted into the the LOtC scheme, we have a very comprehensive provider statement that we send to them asking them a whole lot of questions, which we then follow up. So, we feel that we do have a fairly good grip on quality control already, and if any new players come into the market, then we've a way of addressing them, and often helping them reach the bar of provision that we require. 

Graham.

I think it's just worth highlighting that again, that the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel exists as the people who are currently employed by local authorities to discharge their health and safety in education quality duties. So, there is a system of verification already in place. You'll have heard possibly, or seen data, from the EVOLVE system, which is the computer system that supports that process, and colleagues like Clare and Mike will be dealing with that on a day-to-day basis. So, some of those things are not new. They exist already, and could easily be highlighted as meeting those needs that you highlight. 

Okay. Laura.

Okay, yes, thank you. You've answered my next question, really. Some of the responses to Sam Rowlands's consultations have raised concerns that the Bill could lead to a significant increase in funding to the sector, which is of course welcome, but that could result in new organisations forming to offer off-the-shelf courses so duties under the Bill could be met. It was just about the concerns around that, but, as you say, systems are in place.

So, what's your view on evidence from the Welsh Local Government Association that formal agreement would need to be in place for providers to ensure a fail-safe and accountable system? Aren't these in place already and would you welcome such agreements?

Graham.

I think, to some extent, they are. We've got to think about the state of the sector now. Perhaps 40 years ago, we might have had lots of local authorities who ran their own provision directly. Now we've got three local authorities in Wales that actually do that. One authority runs two centres. So, they've been in place in the past. Its relatively easy to put those in place there. I think that, again, would come back to some of the answers I gave to Ken earlier about the availability of schools, and local authorities choosing how they deliver the Curriculum for Wales—how they make those choices, whether they make those contractual arrangements, whether they look at what's locally suitable. So, I think those have been in place. Some of them still are there, and it's relatively straightforward to replicate those. I don't think that would be a big difficulty for the outdoor provision sector.

Coming back to your earlier point, though, that, actually, many of the centres themselves, as we said, are charities or community interest companies. People require quite a high level of qualification to work there and are paid significantly less than teachers, and they're doing a teaching job. That means that, largely, those folk are there providing because they believe in the value of the outdoor education that's delivered. They're not making money out of it, I'm afraid. This is not going to be a six-figure bonus type of industry, I'm afraid, at all. Sorry, I don't mean to be sarcastic or in any way disrespectful there.

Clare.

Just to reiterate some of what Graham was saying that the majority of us as advisers are based within local authority settings or a consortia group setting. There are a couple who are consultant advisers, but they work directly for the local authorities as well. We very much feel that we have that support network as well, because if we have any issues with any organisations or providers, we will talk that through as a group, as the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel. So, we feel that there is that support network already there in place.

Okay. Laura.

Thank you. My question's asked, but I just wanted to ask an additional one. Do you think, then—? If this Bill goes through and all the schools come to you, do you think there is sufficient equipment for disabled people in every single centre, in order to meet the demand?

Graham.

Not right now, no.

Do you think that that needs to be incorporated, then, as a requirement?

I don't know how you legislate for that, because you're going to be looking at that local level of provision again. Maybe, as you've highlighted, if local authorities are aware of the schools and the needs within their local authority, they might need to build that into any service level agreement they have with providers, but I don't know if you can legislate for that at this level.

Thank you. Diolch. Thanks, Laura. A question from Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you all for joining us this morning. It's been a very interesting session this morning. I have a question on interactions with local authorities and schools. What interactions does the sector have with local authorities and schools now, and how might that change if the Bill passes?

Who wants to start? Mike.

Well, at the moment, schools going on a residential visit or any visit—. Twenty-one of the 22 authorities in Wales use EVOLVE, which is an electronic platform where they can upload all their information. That gets reviewed internally by the school, and if it's more adventurous, by us as advisers. We then also provide training for senior staff in schools, as to the responsibilities in planning and approving visits, and for teachers, the visit leaders themselves. So, currently there is a lot of interaction. We work alongside corporate health and safety on some issues. We work alongside the county insurers and legal support if we have questions about the level of, say, public liability insurance of a provider and whether that's enough. In Wales, because we work through the local authorities, I think we're well placed there and have good relationships. It's slightly different in England, where they have academies and various set-ups, and perhaps that doesn't work quite so seamlessly. But I think we're in a good place.

Clare.

I was just going to add to what Mike said in terms of training. I think if this were to be in place, then, through our already existing training that we provide, in terms of educational visits, co-ordinator training and visits leader training, there would need to be additional training put on. So, looking at the capacity of that, again we already have the advisers in place, but I suspect we'd need to ramp that up a little bit in terms of new teachers coming in who are perhaps going on a residential for the first time, and looking at supporting schools to ensure that they've got the appropriate training and experience in place before they go on residential outdoor education visits.

Lovely. Ceren.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. Buffy.

Thank you, Chair.

Lovely. Brilliant. Okay, thank, and diolch yn fawr iawn. That's the end this evidence session today. Thank you very much for joining us. I really appreciate your time and the evidence that you've provided this morning. You will receive a copy of a transcript, just to check for factual accuracy. So, if you could do that. You'll receive that in due course. But, again, thank you for joining us again this morning. Thank you. Diolch.

Okay, we'll move on to the next item on our agenda, which are papers to note. We have six papers to note this morning. All the details are set out in the agenda and the paper pack. Are Members content to note the papers together? I see that Members are.

And the next item is to go into private session. So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. So, we will now proceed to meet in private.