National Assembly for Wales

Thank you. Some of it's been covered already, but, just on the strengths and weakness of this dispersed model, and, also, do you think that our residents will understand that there is actually a national gallery as well, with it being dispersed? Alun was touching before on it being a stand-alone model compared to this dispersed model. So, what do you think are the strengths and weaknesses? 

I want to start with the strengths because I think it is a fantastic model. And I go back to that point that the national collection belongs to everyone in Wales, and people shouldn't have to travel four to five hours to see the collection in Cardiff; it should be available within their communities. And I think there is a fantastic opportunity here. I think the way that Amgueddfa Cymru has been working over the last few years, and the practice within the arts council as well of taking items to those communities—actually, of communities deciding themselves which items they want to see—.  It's not Amgueddfa Cymru saying, 'This is what we're going to give you'; it's inviting those communities, with the support of the galleries, for them to decide what they want to see and what's relevant. And that idea of collaboration and co-curation, I think, sits at the heart of this. So, it's changing the whole way we talk about art, that it's not something rarified and distant; that it is something that you can experience in your town, in your village, in a completely new way.

I heard in a previous evidence session—I think it was, actually, when we went to Ireland—that we need to make art relevant to people.

Absolutely.

So it tells a story, and that stuck in my mind. So, with you saying that, it reminds me of that.

Yes, I think that's absolutely the right thing, that it is something that's relevant, that's meaningful to people's lives, and this is why the element of that voice, the choice coming from a different direction, I think, is so important.

Okay.

Just briefly, Chair. I think that the national collections as well should be available in people's pockets. People should be able to carry the national collections with them in their pockets while doing their business every day. In that, the digitisation programme of this particular programme will actually allow people to do that. So, I think that's a very, very exciting prospect as well, and a very, very important part of this project.

Diolch, Pedr. That's an element that we're going to be returning to in a little more detail later, but that's really helpful for you to set down there then. Diolch.

I think part of the challenge there, just to go back to the original question, in establishing whether the public will be aware that it's a national collection or it's a national gallery, is creating a strong brand as well—a strong brand that has impact, that is relevant wherever you are in Wales, that you understand what it is. That is part of the challenge over the next two years, to establish that and build on that. Some of that work started during the pandemic. I'm sure we'll go back to the digital element, as Pedr said, creating that brand. And I think the other aspect of this, which is interesting, is that it's not top down, necessarily; there are opportunities for the local communities to ask for specific pieces of work and to create work that's relevant to those communities. That is part of the offer.

Absolutely.

So, will there be branding like signage and a logo to show that it's part of a national gallery as it goes on tour?

Yes, and that's something we're working on. For the creative director, one of her first jobs, now she's in post, is to look at what that brand can look like and work with the galleries, because, obviously, they've got all their strong identities too, which is of a huge relevance in terms of their profile within the community, and to have a brand that brings all of that together with the partners and the collection.

Okay, thank you. And, on weaknesses—we've talked about the strengths of this—any perceived weaknesses, going forward?

Perhaps one of the questions—and I wouldn't say it's a weakness; it's a challenge for us—is about the sustainability, in terms of us moving collections to different parts of the country and how we manage that in a way so that we do minimise our carbon footprint. So, we are looking into that and looking at things. They sound basic, but they're important—about sustainable packaging materials, looking at the types of vehicles. So, I think that is a challenge, and that's something we are grappling with.

Okay, Pedr's nodding. Okay.

Okay.

I think that was it, really, wasn't it, on my two questions.

This is a Welsh disease all over, it's it? We're just going to give everybody a piece of jam and everybody's hungry. That's the reality of it. I've sat here for 16 years listening to these sorts of things, and ticking boxes so that we cover north, south, east, west, rural, urban, Welsh-speaking, non-Welsh-speaking, and in the end we don't deliver anything because we don't create the institution. I think it's important that we have galleries and art institutions, shall we say, where things can travel across the country. But to be successful, you've got to have roots as well. Blaenavon works because it's rooted in the coal industry in the Valleys. We were in Llanberis last year, weren't we, and I thought the plans there for the slate museum work because it's in the location there, and it's fantastic, brilliant. But the reality is, unless we actually create a national gallery, none of this is going to work. It's not true that the people of Blaenau Gwent will have access to artwork that is in Aberystwyth or that is in Mostyn or that is somewhere else, because they're not going to go there to see it. It's not true. And when you create all these very small, minor institutions across the country, instead of a national institution, what you do is you pretend that you're delivering something for everybody when you're delivering nothing for everybody, and I think we need to think hard about this as a country and as a nation because, as a nation, we don't have a national gallery, and unless we create that, then all the fantastic collections we have will remain invisible to the people who own them, and I think it would be a tragic missed opportunity.

[Inaudible.]

There was a question mark—

There's a question mark at the end of it. It's not cynical at all; it's based on looking at this country as a country and not simply pretending that we're achieving things that we're not in reality, and I think we've got to challenge ourselves.

Would you like any of the witnesses to respond to that? I think Dafydd wanted to.

I'm just challenging the—

Yes. There's a question that's not been covered, really. How will this dispersed model link with other policy areas, such as education and health? So, we have schoolchildren visit certain areas—they love to come to St Fagans, with the wonderful areas.

Thank you, Carolyn. When we were doing the preparatory work for the digitisation of the collection, we consulted across Wales and we talked to over 900 people, and we also consulted with WJEC and a whole range of teachers just to understand what was required and what was most useful to them. The feedback that we had at the time was very welcoming of the initiative and being able to use the collections in a way, but just to have not strict lesson plans but just support and resources for teachers to be able to adapt those for their approach to the delivery of the Cwricwlwm i Gymru. So, that's very much centred in the work that we're doing. We've had a learning officer develop the digital material, and as we move forward with the physical delivery, there will also be a learning officer to support the galleries to develop their programmes, and to work with schools and a whole range of people through formal and informal learning. So, it's very central to the approach that we're taking.

Thank you.

Diolch. Can I just talk about funding? What arrangements do you envisage for ongoing revenue and capital funding of the national contemporary art gallery, and how does that differ, perhaps, from current Welsh Government budgets in that area?

I'll talk on behalf of Amgueddfa Cymru. The funding that we have in place, which has facilitated the digital work and is facilitating the lending model, and the support needed for that, takes us up to 2025. There is a question, as we move forward, as to how we continue to maintain that level of service. Dafydd has already mentioned that both the creative director and the project director will be looking at opportunities for commercial exploitation, but we will have to think about how we're able to maintain that post 2025.

That was what I was going to come on to, the commercial income. So, what—

Forgive me, Tom—I think Pedr wanted to come in on this before we come back to that. Is that all right?

Diolch. Thanks, Tom.

Thank you. In terms of commercial income, then, which we touched on, what's the plan? What do you envision as the role of the potentiality of increased commercialisation? What would that look like in reality?

That's something that we haven't really been focused on at Amgueddfa Cymru, because our work has been on the lending model and the digitisation at present. So, I'm not going to try and give you an answer that is ill prepared. I think there are opportunities, of course, in terms of how we use the artwork, the works we create on the back of that, but I think I'd rather take the time to speak to both the creative director and the project director and come back to you, to really map out what those commercial opportunities are.

Tom, before we move on, I think Llyr wanted to come in on that point.

Finally on funding, do you think that the dispersed model that you're pursuing is more amenable to potential commercial income? Or the points Alun made in favour of this anchor site—would that not be something more amenable, to lend itself better to commercial income?

We're working as a partnership, and we mustn't forget Amgueddfa Cymru's role here as a host gallery and llyfrgell genedlaethol's role as a host gallery. I think, together, with that critical mass, that there is potential for some commercial exploitation. But I'll be very clear that that's not going to be sufficient to be able to fund this; it will not make the project sustainable in and of itself.

I'm going to move on to the digitisation programme, which we've touched on. Just as a broad overview, because I know it's been touched on numerous times, where is that at the moment, how far along the path are we?

On 23 June, we launched Celf ar y Cyd. The website went live, and I'm delighted to note that it's had a really positive response. If I can just take a step back and refer to the consultation that we did back in 2020 with a range of communities and organisations across Wales, we really tried our best to listen and respond to what was emerging from that consultation. There was a huge appetite for contemporary art to be platformed in this way. What was really interesting was the appetite to see behind the scenes, to have the artist talks, see what curators and the conservators were doing. So we've tried to embody that within the site. So, there are 30,000 images that are available to see—some images have never been seen in public before. But it isn't just a big digital dump, if you like—it's not just about the images. There's material there in terms of different curatorial voices. We're using what we call community curators—so, not the professionals, but people who are responding to those works of art—and incorporating them in terms of the content. There are articles, interviews with artists. So we've tried to make it as rounded as possible, and it's not just looking at the image, but exploring a little bit more deeply.

It's encouraging to hear you've had some really good feedback on it so far. How are you measuring that feedback? I'm sure it's not purely about numbers. Carolyn earlier mentioned the importance of people in an educational setting, for example, engaging with it. So, what sorts of metrics are you using to look at how well received it is, and how popular, and so on?

We're still developing. It's important that that website has to be dynamic and it has to respond. What we've done in the last two weeks, since we launched, is we are going back to those 900 individuals, first and foremost, to check whether that site represents what they said, and that they can see that their views have—or haven't, maybe—been taken on board. So that's what we're using at the moment, but obviously, as the site develops, we will do something that's deeper and broader, if you like. But it is going back to the consultees in the first instance.

Okay. And then, as you say, that hopefully will inform the future direction of travel—would that be fair to say?

Absolutely. And I think what we've been keen to state—and it goes back to the point about relevance—is how we incorporate those different voices, that they're not just the standard curatorial voice. And if there are responses—. You can't upload things, but if there was a community group who wished to respond, or do an article or a blog, we will work with people to add new and different content. So that dynamism is really, really important.

And then, obviously, digitisation is not cheap, as you can imagine. So, how are you funding that at the moment, and how do you envision funding that? As you say, that work's ongoing.

I'm delighted to say that all of the relevant works within Amgueddfa Cymru's collection have been digitised. It wasn't cheap. There was an award of over £1 million from the Welsh Government to allow us to do that. So, that has been completed. Pedr may want to pick up how we'll be funding the library's collection, because that hasn't been onboarded yet, but we do expect to finish that by April 2025.

Thank you. And one final question from me, which is an interesting one, I guess, to finish on, to think of: how suitable is online access for experiencing contemporary art? 

It can never better being in the space with the real thing; I think we have to be realistic about that. And also, within our discussions—. Digitisation is not the cure for the common cold. However, I think that what we've learned is—. We've been able, as I say, to add—. Some 28,000 new images were created as part of this programme, and we were able to platform works that are so fragile and sensitive, they've never been on public display. So, there is a huge advantage to what we're able to show. There is, of course, a question around digital poverty, and we are aware of that. I don't think anybody's got a neat answer. So, there are strengths and weaknesses.

The other point I'd want to make is, going back to the galleries, I see this digital platform as the shop window for galleries and communities who want to begin to curate their exhibitions to make those choices for the works they want to borrow that they want to see within their communities. So, I do think there's real potential, but it's not a silver bullet. There are weaknesses in this. As I say, being in the space is quite special, isn't it?  

The other advantage that I should have mentioned is that, obviously, digital has no national and international boundaries. So, it really does give us an opportunity to platform Welsh art to international audiences, and I think that that's something important, as a by-product, to remember. 

We've covered a lot of the challenges that are facing the project. Those challenges notwithstanding, can I ask you all to set out what your vision would be for what you would like this project to achieve? 

I've heard Ministers time and time again saying this is unique to Wales, it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Well, sometimes there's a good reason for that, of course. I'm not convinced that being unique is actually always a good thing just because it is. I'm not convinced by the arguments you're putting forward this morning, if I'm quite honest with you, because I'd hoped to be, as it happens. But the more I hear of the arguments, the more frustrated I feel that we are missing an opportunity here to actually do something special for our country—really something special for Wales. And instead of actually saying, 'We want to create an institution'—. Because you can talk about democratising the arts as much as you like, but unless you actually create something where people can actually see them, not on a screen, but stand in front of them, you're not doing that. You're not doing that, not really. It's not being delivered. [Interruption.] Yes, but it's not being created, is it? That's my question.

On that point, can I just come in? There are people that you consulted on this—900. What was the age range of the 900? What was the background? Were they from varied socioeconomic backgrounds, ages—male and female?

We made every effort to try and make it representative and not go into the same old, same old. So, a range of organisations, groups of young people, Disability Arts Cymru—across the piece. And, as I say, the WJEC. I could give you the full list of who we consulted with. We also included artists as well and creative professionals, so we tried to ensure that that consultation profile was as diverse and as representative as possible, but I'm happy to provide the full list, if that's helpful.

Thank you for that. 

Sandra Harding, chair of the Contemporary Art Society for Wales. 

Hi. Chris Delaney. I'm the development officer for the federation of museums and galleries.

We might be having a little bit of technical difficulty here. Alfredo, can you hear us okay?

I can hear double speaking, two people—[Inaudible.]

Right, okay. Do you want to introduce yourself for the record?

Yes. Alfredo Cramerotti, Mostyn director, a national contemporary art museum in north Wales.

Lovely. Okay, we'll go straight to questions, and I'll go first to Alun Davies.

How do you define contemporary art?

I would define contemporary art as being art that is current, that is being produced now by artists that are alive and working.

So, not art that was produced—

I can hear, actually, double everything. It's just kind of doubled up.

Oh, okay, what we'll do, we'll just see if—. Some technicians are going to get in touch with you, Alfredo, and we'll just see if we can try and sort that out now.

So, not art that was created a century or so ago.

Well, obviously, the contemporary art is seen in a context of earlier work, but 'contemporary' tends to be current.

So, not art that was created 100 years ago.

No, not for contemporary, not for the use of the word 'contemporary'.

I'm interested, because we're talking about a contemporary art gallery, so we need to know what we're talking about. Wales has a number of national collections, the vast majority, as far as I can see—or most, anyway, shall we say—of which is historical. So, you would very clearly differentiate between art as being produced today by living artists in whatever medium and that which was produced, say, prior—you know, in the past.

'Contemporary' tends to be used to be linked with artists that are operating now, but, as you've pointed out, the collections, the national collections, have built up over the years, and seeing contemporary work in that context can only enhance the work that you see, and I'm sure my colleagues who've talked this morning from the national gallery, et cetera, would have had more to say on that, linked to their own collections.

Sure, but, from my perspective, we're trying here to identify something, and a concept and a project. So, if you say, contemporary art is today, but also that that influenced it from 100 years ago, you're not actually seeing anything at all, are you? You're not actually defining anything as contemporary, except that we've got this today, but we could also, if we wish to, extend that definition to include anything that we would wish to include.

No, contemporary art—. My understanding is that contemporary art is art produced by artists who are living, who are current. But, as I say, all artwork is seen in the context of what has gone before, and that's where our national galleries do such a fantastic job in presenting contemporary art in different contexts.

But you're very clear about what contemporary art is, and it is not the past; it's the present. We just need to clarify that for the record. I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I'm anxious that you accept my interpretation of what you're saying—or not. So, if we're talking about creating a means of accessing art that is being created today, where is the starting point? Where are we, in terms of—? In your view, where are we today in terms of accessing art, contemporary art?

Well, obviously the focus today is on the galleries that we have in Wales, and that's the obvious place to start for collections of work that are held in places where they are looked after, where they can be presented, where the public can see them, where people can have access. That's why the contemporary art society was so pleased to see what came out of the Welsh Government's current recommendations, in that works of contemporary art are, according to what's been recommended, going to be seen by more people, and that is something surely to be applauded. 

Yes, assuming it's true. But my question, with due respect, Ms Harding, was: where are we today? Where is our starting point?

Well, as I say, I go back to the contemporary art society—. Perhaps I ought to explain. We're a charity. We started in the 1930s. Our aim is to foster and promote an engagement with and appreciation of the visual arts among the people in Wales. We do that in many ways. We arrange visits to galleries, talks. We give awards. But we also gift works of art. Over 900 works of art have been gifted by the Contemporary Art Society for Wales to public galleries across Wales, and they've done that since the 1930s. It's a distributed collection, and so, with that in mind, we are just so pleased that those works of art that the contemporary art society has gifted to public galleries, more of them will be seen by more people.

Yes—

Alun, would you like Chris or Alfredo to come in on this or do you want to—?

I just wanted to clarify the answer to this question. It's: so, where are we today? I accept what you're saying about access in the future and the rest of it, and I've got no issue with any of that, and, quite frankly, I'd expect the contemporary art society to say that they welcome a contemporary arts gallery. But where are we today?

Well, we are with a structure of galleries that I hope will be able to share what they have in a better, more effective way because of what is being pushed—

But where are we today? Do we have the access to contemporary art that you would anticipate from a relatively small European country, in relative terms? Do we have that access today?

Well, we have access via the national institutions, but we can do better, and surely that's what the discussion's about.

Okay, but we need to start—know where the starting point is. But, okay, fair enough. Let's go to the others.

Chris, would you like to comment on Alun's line of questioning with this?

Yes, certainly. Just to sort of think about an example, I've worked in museums from about 1975, and our museum in west Wales was basically a member of the contemporary art society. So, we were collecting works that they provided and contemporary art from before my period, but certainly from the 1970s. So, the working definition was: living artist and work that, really, I suppose, started from about 1945. So, that was the terms of it. Quite clearly, some of the artists that I was collecting, or I had given to the museum collection, are dead now. That's the whole thing about contemporary art, that it's fluid, it's changing. I suppose, because they're dead, it could be considered to be—[Inaudible.]—art, but most museums across Wales and museums and galleries will have collections of contemporary art and still collect contemporary art.

In terms of where we are and what the current situation is, then, basically, from a museum point of view, there are something like 100 accredited museums in Wales, and I would say that probably something like 40 of those would actually have galleries, and those galleries would show a variety of exhibitions, which would include contemporary art. So, places like—[Inaudible.]—museum has a very nice gallery. It has its own collection of contemporary art; it shows its own very nice collection of Augustus and Gwen John, which, if you like, is historic art, but it also shows contemporary artists from around that community, from around Pembrokeshire, and that sort of scenario is reciprocated, I think, right across Wales. Storiel in Bangor are doing exactly the same, and Wrexham Museum, again, Pembroke Museum, they all do that kind of work. Does that clarify what you—

The purpose of a local museum is to do exactly that, though, isn't it? It's to tell the story of that locality. We've relatively small museums in each one of the towns I represent, which try to tell the story of that town, but there's a material difference, though, between that local institution and a national institution, which looks to collect works of a national character. 

And I think international character— 

Yes, and international character. 

—[Inaudible.]

Can I come in? Sorry, it's just to respond to Alun Davies as well. Because it's a good question, 'Where are we, today?' Today, we have actually a very interesting ecosystem for arts in Wales. We are very dispersed. I'm in north Wales and you're in Cardiff, and it's five hours away. I run a contemporary museum, effectively, which doesn't have a collection, because we're not mandated to collect contemporary art, but we are mandated to produce and present to the public contemporary art, and we are internationally known. On Saturday, the Financial Times was doing a review of our exhibition here, just to name one. So, to me, this idea of a distributed model of a national gallery of contemporary art Wales is interesting, because it allows us also, as a non-collecting institution, to basically gather knowledge and expertise and share it with the public.

I think we do have also another maybe—[Inaudible.]—example across the border in England. Forgive me for bringing England into the picture, but that's the reality. If you think about the Tate, the Tate is basically a national museum of contemporary art that is dispersed among four different venues. You have, actually, the Britain for British art, the Modern for contemporary art, Liverpool and Cornwall. They share administration, they share marketing, they share logistics, they share, actually, the whole operation, administration and finance and whatever. They have, each of them, individual programmes, which are curated by individual teams, but sharing actually the whole collection they host on behalf of the nation, and that's a good example. If we have to do it as one, I think, we have to—. There is a lot of goodwill that needs to happen, but we can pull it off, and we can really make a difference for the people living in Wales. 

I don't know where you actually are, Alfredo, I'm afraid. You represent the Visual Arts Society, as far as I can see in my notes, but—

No. I'm director of Mostyn in north Wales, in Llandudno. 

You're director of Mostyn, okay. Okay, thank you for that. 

But I work internationally as a curator too, so—. 

Yes, yes. But we're not talking here about establishing four or five Tate galleries, are we? We're talking about something that is on an entirely— 

No. We're thinking of establishing one national gallery that is dispersed in 10 different venues. 

But we're talking about a very different scale of activity, aren't we, in terms of what I can see in the paperwork in front of me. So, we're not talking about major galleries here; we're talking about relatively small-scale galleries. 

No, the scale of the operation is similar, because you have a national collection that needs to be shared and you share it across a number of venues, with all sharing in the operation and logistics and administration and finance and marketing, but each with their individual character in terms of programming, education, learning, outreach, responding to their local purposes, still sharing a national relevant collection of contemporary art. That's what I'm talking about. The scale is similar. It's different in the whole configuration, if you want, but the project is very similar; it is different in Wales because we don't share across four, we share across 10 different venues. 

We are going to come back to talking about the model more in a moment, but I know, Sandra, you wanted to come in.

Well, just because of the mention of the Tate going from one to four. I understand that the Tate also runs a network of galleries in addition, called Plus Tate, and that may be of interest to the discussion here. I understand that there are 30-plus galleries across England and Wales that, because of being linked with Plus Tate, collaborate on ideas and resources—just the kind of thing that could perhaps help the discussion in Wales.

That's very useful. Thank you very much. Alun, are you happy for us to move on and to come back to the model?

Yes. I think we're talking about things that are entirely different in nature, but yes, I'll leave it at that.

So, what involvement have you had in this proposal and this project?

Well, I'm very aware that it's been a long time brewing—2008, of course, I saw the report that came out at that stage and then, of course, the feasibility study in 2018, which, as a contemporary art society, I responded to. And, of course, that talked about the challenge, it talked about pooling resources, and it talked about improving access, and those are all things that the contemporary art society feels would be excellent for all the reasons that I've mentioned.

So, as far as involvement in recent years, we have close links with the national museum, Amgueddfa Cymru, and of course Celf ar y Cyd, so I've been feeding back details on that. We provide talks to our members, and we've made sure that the people responsible for Celf ar y Cyd have given an online talk to CASW members, just trying to make sure that everybody is aware of these very exciting developments.

So, are you engaging now directly with the independent chair and the staff members that have been appointed so far to develop the project?

I have not heard from them, but I'm very interested to see the developments.

Okay. And what about Alfredo and Chris?

Alfredo, do you want to go first?

I was part of a recent workshop in Cardiff with Ceri, who is the creative project director, but I didn't meet, actually, with the chair, so far.

And Chris? I think, Chris, you might be on mute. Okay, you're unmuted now.

I'm unmuted, yes. Museum services have been getting involved, but as an organisation, we've had absolutely no contact with anybody about this until we were invited along to this meeting.

In my case, there is Gillian and she is coming next week to the—[Inaudible.]—actually, Chair.

Yes, of course, and maybe your involvement is slightly different because of the sites that are being considered. So, to the other two, then, to Sandra and Chris: are you disappointed that you haven't had greater engagement, or do you feel that your views are being taken on board as the concept is being developed?

Well, I'm very pleased to have an opportunity on behalf of the Contemporary Art Society for Wales to respond to documents when they come out. And indeed, as I said, that's what I did in 2018, and I had a response from Welsh Government saying, 'Thank you very much for your comments, and we will involve you in future'. So, I was very pleased to have it noted that there was an interest from the point of view of the Contemporary Art Society for Wales, and I've noted what we've done as well as links with Celf ar y Cyd. We're always interested to know of developments. This is what we're about; it's about access to public arts, and I go back to those 900-plus works that we've gifted to institutions, public institutions in Wales. We want them to be seen; we want them to be shared; we want them to be enjoyed.

And Chris, do you concur with that? Are you content with your involvement, or your voice being heard?

As I said, the museums would have liked to have been more engaged in the federation. We're engaged in a lot of projects. This, I think, is being seen as a sort of contemporary art—[Inaudible.]—collections, but effectively, there are many museums across Wales that have contemporary art and art in their collections, but we've only fairly recently become involved as an organisation, as a strategic body, basically.

And in terms of the project's progress, are you pretty content that things are proceeding as you would like, in terms of timescales and that kind of thing?

Well, as I stated, it's been brewing. Sorry, were you talking to—?

Sorry, I—. No, maybe Chris, first of all. 

Apologies.

Sorry, I was looking at you, Sandra, but that's fine.

I think in terms of picking up where we've got with this—[Inaudible.]—we're happy, but we're very keen to come on board and look at this basically from a collections point of view and particularly from a distributed national collections point of view.

Okay. Sandra.

Well, as I mentioned at the beginning, it feels, from our point of view, like it's been brewing for a long time. But I don't have clear details of what the timescale is at the moment, obviously—you will know more of that than I do. But we're all obviously wanting this to move forward for all the reasons that I think we share, mainly the access, fairness, et cetera. There are works out there and it's important, I think, that those works are seen by as many people in Wales as possible.

So, Alfredo, given your more direct involvement with the proposal itself, are things proceeding as you would wish or are things dragging?

Well, it has been a long time in the making for sure. I have to specify that I'm here on behalf of VAGW as well. I'm the co-chair of VAGW, which is the Visual Arts Group Wales, which is the network bringing together the 21 visual arts organisations in Wales; they're kind of the contemporary eyes, and this is actually the presence here as well at the Mostyn Gallery. 

In terms of the scheduling, it has been a really, really long time in the making. There were two feasibility studies, as we all discussed earlier. It seems now that it's coming to some sort of a concrete manifestation and that's really exciting, because, probably, it's a good way—it's a good point to be at, post pandemic, as well. Having this vision I think will be essential in terms of the outreach and education and learning work that each of the organisations of VAGW does with the local community—it's an exciting prospect.

Indeed, and as exciting a prospect as it is, does having that prospect mean that there are other things that you would like to do that you're not doing in anticipation of this happening, or is the fact that this is in the background holding you back on other things or, obviously, it's a prize worth waiting for, potentially?

Not at the moment because we just finished the investment review application to the Arts Council of Wales for the next four years. I think the main questioning would be: what would be the capital investment in terms of bringing to a minimum quality standard the environmental condition of each of the venues? That's something that will come out of this circular survey that the Rural Office Architecture is working on. But it's separate from the investment review, so it has its own timing, which we can't really rush at this point.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. What are the strengths and weaknesses of this project, do you think? We've talked a little about the strengths—what you think—but what do you think are the weaknesses of it as well?

So, shall we go to Sandra first?

You're closer to the details, obviously, than I am. I'm sure there are major cost implications, but that is something that I'm sure you're looking at very closely. This, obviously, is a long-term commitment, so, it's not like project funding. It would have to be something for sustainable funding, and that, obviously, is something that would need to be tackled and very carefully.

The whole timeline and how that will work, obviously, is something that needs to be sorted out. But there are so many pluses to having opportunities for contemporary artwork to be seen in other places. I hope it's not going to stop at the increased access via the network. We've recently been hearing about things like pop-up exhibitions in shopping centres, in community centres. There was something recently—a Constable painting in Tyneside from the National Gallery was in a community centre; there was a lot of positive feedback. I'm just suggesting this: you're looking at some kind of structure now to get the contemporary art that we have within our institutions, within the hosts, as you'll label it, more widely seen, and I hope that that will be another step that you would consider as part of this.

And Alfredo, have you got anything to add to that, or Chris?

In terms of the potential weaknesses?

And strengths—the strengths that you haven't mentioned, or any—

I think we've already talked about the strengths, really; I don't want to repeat myself. In terms of the weaknesses, I think that a potential weakness is not to enforce enough the brand of the national museum, the national gallery of contemporary art Wales across the venues. That's something that needs to be carefully planned, because if we have to make this work, it really has to transfer the brand of the national gallery of contemporary art Wales across all of the 10 different sites. So, it is an amalgamation, it's a combination, it's a synchronisation, if you want, of the different brands' positioning. I'm talking about Mostyn, because that's where I work. We have an excellent international reputation. So, to have that kind of branding on top of our current branding, it needs to be carefully planned, and that is true for the other nine venues as well. So, I think that's a potential area that we need to pay particular attention to. 

Okay, thank you. 

And Chris, is there anything that you would like to add? 

Yes, I think I'd just like to say that we see this as a very positive development, particularly, obviously, for contemporary art. Also, I think that, for Wales, it would work very well. I think that with the scale of the country, the size of the country, it would work very well and the knowledge we have of each others' venues and each others' collections is particularly keen and significant in creating this network. The weaknesses I would pick up on, though, are I think whether or not the network is large enough—geographically, could we have a few other venues involved. There are some very, very good galleries with very good collections. I'm thinking of Oriel Môn, for example, and we maybe need to look at the network to ensure that the network has a good geographical spread and maybe, actually, involves galleries right across the country, rather than these, if you like, groupings, which are to do with where galleries are at the moment and who are clients of the arts council. It may be that we need to look at a few more. 

[Inaudible.] Forgive me, Sandra. Sorry.

Could I just add to that, just as a supplement to a response to your question, and that is about just being careful—a weakness—about the use of the terms? When I talk to some colleagues about the idea of the network, the host, the anchor, some of them, coming from an NHS background, said, 'Ah yes, well these labels have been used in the NHS and the anchor is always the one that holds the funding'. And I said, 'Okay, I'm not quite sure if that's what's implied in this model'. And, indeed, looking at the documentation, I'm still not clear about how the anchor will work, whether it's a purpose-built gallery, whether it's an add-on or whether it's an administrative hub. And, as I've talked to different people, people have come back with different responses. So, I just raise that. I suppose it's part of that initial point about how important the branding is and how important the terms used are, just to make sure that there's clarity. 

Thank you, Sandra.

And Alfredo said, didn't he, about the branding, which will just combine everything together.

Exactly. Exactly. 

And just about linking to education and health and other services as well, how do you think that will happen?

Well, I'm hoping that all of these initiatives will allow people of all ages to tap into the contemporary arts. So, people will be able to visit and see the work and also, of course, because of the digital access, there will be much more in the way of starting points, particularly for people doing research, for students, for people of all ages who are interested in this particular area. Maybe it's worth me just mentioning the way in which something like Art UK can be used, which is just a fantastic model for being able to find out what's out there. Whether it's painting, sculptures—Art UK is brilliant. And something I've been looking at recently are the archives of American art in the Smithsonian. And, when you go into that, you find recordings of lectures, performances, interviews with the artists, and I see that in that particular institution, if an artist dies, they approach the executors, they go into the studios, they document all the work, and that is then available for all. It's a wonderful model that perhaps Wales could be aspiring to, under this project.

Thank you. Would anybody else like to add anything?

The Smithsonian is a huge institution. It's a huge institution. It's bigger than the Welsh Government. I don't think it's realistic to suggest that we're going to be able to in any way replicate that.

Sorry to interrupt there. But it just gives us another way of working, talking about being able to document the work in the studios. There are aspects of that that Wales could be considering at the time of developing this model.

Thank you, Sandra. Do Chris or Alfredo want to respond to Carolyn's question? And then I'm going to come to Alun after Carolyn's question.

And linking to other service areas, such as education and health.

I do think, actually, that the sharing of the national collection and having also this brand positioning, if you want, as a distributor side, it will help enormously with the reach of the respective learning, education and outreach teams to their community to work with. It's not about replicating an existing institution. It's about being inspired by the model that works elsewhere and actually adapting it to our own realities. That's what it is about, actually, and I think it's a good way forward, because you have to think ambitiously. We have also to think actually geographically, and we have to think, contextualising, actually, what we do in Wales. I think there is nothing wrong, actually, in being inspired by other institutions, as long as we adapt our goals accordingly and we adapt to what we do, to the benefit of all for the maximum impact. Especially, I see the work here we're doing actually with the NHS, with the different interest groups, with socially deprived communities, and primary and secondary schools. If you have that kind of idea of having the national museum coming to you with a range of resources, artistic and educational resources, I think it will have a big impact.

Okay, thank you.

And Chris, is there anything you'd like to add?

I would just like to say, a lot of these networks actually exist and a lot of opportunities for borrowing from national collections exist, but this somehow takes it a step forward. It takes it to another level. I think that's what's important about this proposal. It takes it to another level, and it's a sustainable level.

Thank you, Chris. Carolyn, was there anything else you wanted to—? No. Alun.

Chris, how does it take us to a different level, because to me, it seems to be replicating, exactly as you say, what happens at the moment? I don't understand how the distributed model we're debating this morning actually does take these matters to a different level. I think it just puts a brand, if you like, on what's already happening. There's no reason why collections can't be shared today, surely.

Chris.

Yes, collections are being shared today. Museums across the country can borrow from national collections and do borrow from national collections, and borrow from each other. That's been going on. I recall, when I was working, we lent some of our collections to an exhibition that was on in the Mostyn, for an example. When I say, 'takes it to another level', it's because it's bringing in a sort of formality, rather than just creating an ad hoc network. It's more of a formal structure with Government backing, with financial backing, and that then does take it to a new level—that sort of formality and that sort of structuring, rather than just making the phone call and chatting to colleagues.

I understand that. I think that's a reasonable argument, as it happens. But surely, and this is where—. You've all said things that are subtly different this morning, actually, in your evidence to us. I'm trying to work out exactly how to rationalise that, because the crisis, if you like, facing us in Wales in terms of our national collections isn't, in my view, in the contemporary arts field, but in our historical collections, which are, not quite gathering dust, but which are not accessible to anybody anywhere in the country. And I don't understand how the proposals that we've been discussing today are actually going to address that ongoing crisis, if you like—that crisis of accessibility. 

Sandra, do you want to pick that up?

Well, as you quite rightly noted, the focus today is on contemporary art, but going back to that earlier point, contemporary art can be seen in the context of what has gone before, and I hope that, in these exhibitions, what you're doing is just raising awareness, making sure people can see, people can enjoy, people can make connections, and surely this is a good thing. 

I'm not saying it's not a good thing; what I'm saying is: does it answer the right question? And that's a different issue.

I think it begins to answer that question, because, as I say, contemporary art doesn't stand on its own.

Yes, look, we can always make that argument, but by making that argument, of course, you make the definition completely irrelevant then, don't you? You just water it down to virtually nothing—

I don't think so.

—and I find that quite a difficult concept, then, to grasp, because we're not actually then talking about contemporary art; we're talking about anything else we seek to define as 'contemporary' or 'influential'. I think, then, you just get into some sort of rather curious sort of circle. But it doesn't fundamentally answer the question of access to our national collections.

May I come in?

Yes, Alfredo, certainly.

I think it does answer that question, in terms of if—. I don't have a collection in-house, for instance, anymore; I'm talking about Mostyn as an example. If I share a national collection, the artists I invited for the future programmes, they might be able, actually, and very willing to be inspired by the collection, to integrate some of the collection in their art work, and curators too. We can curate exhibitions that are both contemporary and classical art, for instance, because, as Sandra was mentioning, there is a continuum in art; art doesn't pop up in a vacuum—there is always something else that it refers to. And, I think, having that work in-house, so to speak, is a great push to share, not only the contemporary art work, but also the classical art work that, at the moment, are kind of locked away, as you mentioned.

But you can do that now, and nothing's stopping any curator creating that conceptual approach. And I accept that. And I think it's great, by the way; I've got no issue with that. It's all great, and I've got no issue with it at all. But it doesn't answer the question that's been asked.

It does answer the question, because if you brand it as a national—

Yes, but you can brand anything as anything—

—contemporary, national gallery, and if you're using the national collection in the contemporary arts realm and work, it does answer that question, because I have it in-house; I don't have to ask for loans two years before. I don't have to have that particular condition report ready if I want to borrow a work, because it's already shared, the collection. That's the ultimate goal. 

But that to me sounds like an administrative matter rather than anything else. 

Yes, for sure. As mentioned before, it's the logistic administration, the financial and the marketing as tools, actually, that are the operational side of it. That's what makes things happen, and that's the basis to work on it—you have those foundations to build on. Without those foundations, you can't really do much. 

Yes, but you still don't have the place, the location, and the capacity to deliver access to the national collections. And that, to me, is the real crisis facing Wales.

We do have 10 different places to access the collection. 

But then you take them all out of—. You put them into a local context rather than a national context, and you lose the national impact.

No, you have the national context bringing the national collection to those locations. If we brand it precisely—and that's one of the key points here—I think it would work.

But—. I've got no issue with having different things in different places, because, as we said in an earlier session, the slate museum in Llanberis works well because it's rooted in Llanberis, and that's where slate was quarried, and that's why it's important that it's there—the same with Blaenavon and Big Pit in the valleys of south Wales. But the national collections are the national collections, and, to me, a contemporary arts gallery, which is distributed around the country, doesn't deliver access to the national collections for the people I represent. And that worries me, because I think we're trying to fit the collections into a model that has been designed to deliver a model rather than designed to deliver access.

I don’t quite grasp why you don't see that happening.

I think you have two different perspectives on this, and I doubt whether we're going to ever get to a point where you're agreeing on this, so it's probably better—.

Chris, was there anything that you wanted to add?

Can I just comment there? One of the things is about national collections, and if what you're saying is that national collections are what are in the doors of the national institutions, then we would argue, as a federation, that you're wrong, because the national collections are those collections in museums across Wales—a distributed national collection—and that some of the museums have material of national and international significance, even though they're regional museums. So, therefore, we're very, very keen that that work we've been doing, where we've been looking at collections, working with the national museums, to look at whether we can devise collection strategies, whether we can look at loan programmes, that sort of thing, is effectively saying that we have, in Wales, a distributed national collection, not just the collections housed—. It somehow makes regional collections, the way you talk makes regional collections look second rate. There are some excellent collections within regional museums that are of national and international significance, and certainly match some of the material that's in the national museum in those terms.

I think, what I like about—. Not just what I like, but what a lot of museums like about this structure is it's making collections right across Wales, national, and circulating them more in a much more structured and at a higher level without the kind of mass of capital investment that's required for a new build of a new gallery. And, as you say, lots of our existing galleries, lots of our existing spaces need investment. What again is good about this structure is it's investing across a network rather than just in one new build.

Look, I can understand why you like a distributed model. That's fine. And I think David Anderson, when he was here as director general of the national museum, had some very interesting things to say about the national museum sharing its resources, both in terms of collections and expertise, with regional and local museums, and I think that's a good thing, and I think it should happen more often, and it should happen in a structured and strategic way. But that answers a different question to the one that is being asked here, which is access to our national collections. And I've got no issue at all with saying the history of Tredegar—we’re celebrating the national health service today—is also the history of Wales. Of course it is. But it's not the same as the national collection, and I think we need to be careful that we don't fool ourselves into thinking that it is. So, I think we're talking here about something that is fundamentally different.

I think that the perspectives that you all take on this—. Art is subjective, isn't it, and maybe the interpretations of this are a manifestation of that. Alun, I don’t think there was anything further that you wanted the witnesses to respond to there. Okay. So, we will move to another aspect of this, from Tom.

Thank you very much. I just wanted to talk about the digital access, which I know you touched on in earlier answers as well. So, can I start just by asking how involved the three of you have been with Amgueddfa Cymru's project to digitise their contemporary collections?

Well, just as I touched on previously, I heard about this project, I talked to the national museum, we arranged for the two people who were managing the project to give a talk to contemporary art society members online; I've seen earlier versions of this website and commented. So, there's been that kind of link. I'm aware there's been a lot of work out there, I'm aware of the recent launch, and I'm aware that there's a lot more to be done, because obviously they want feedback as they go, and that's certainly what we'll do our best to provide.

Okay. Chris or Alfredo.

I've had very—or we, sorry, as an organisation, have had very—little involvement with this website I'm hearing references to. Clearly, we've been involved as an organisation with—[Inaudible.]—each of our members would have their own website and have their collections available online, and we've obviously been involved with the People's Collection Wales, and we have material in there, but, in terms of the new website, very little involvement at all.

Okay, thank you. Alfredo, how much involvement have you had?

I was involved at earlier stages as VAGW, the network, as well as one of the partners of the projects. Just to share, actually, the idea that the collection needed to be digitised in order to get easier access, from a professional point of view in that sense, as well as an audience point of view, because, if you have actually to plan an exhibition including a national museum, you need to know what is there, actually, without taking 15 different journeys up and down the country. We got the presentation at the national museum two weeks ago for the launch of the website.

Great. Thank you.

Could I just mention—? We talked about the website for Amgueddfa Cymru, and I'm aware that there's a very interesting website that's been developed, obviously, via the National Library of Wales. I hope that somehow, maybe, this will all be joined up so that there'd be one place that you could go to find out what was available within Wales within the national collections. Just an observation; maybe it's part of the plan.

Okay. Thank you. You talked, Sandra—I'll direct this question at Sandra, but if either of the two of you want to chip in, you're more than welcome to—you mentioned about your role in providing feedback and that that was an ongoing project. I think you witnessed, didn't you, our first session this morning. I think I saw you in the gallery.

Yes. 

Good that I didn't imagine that. When we asked about feedback, obviously that isn't purely linear, that isn't purely in terms of the volume of people, perhaps, witnessing these collections, but actually are we looking at educational institutions that are coming with it, how are different communities represented. So, the feedback you provide, how much of that does that capture, if you like, or is it just a pure kind of linear—?

Well, the model has been, that I've worked with is, that, as they have shared information with me, I've given feedback. My own background is in education, so I quite like these kinds of opportunities to make sure that as many aspects are considered, and then obviously they make the decision as to where they're going to move next.

So, do you have a degree of confidence that they are considering a wider picture, if you like, looking at different groups and how they're interacting with the digital infrastructure?

I don't know how they're dealing with others. They obviously will have given you the fuller picture of that, but I know that they want to engage and they respond when I send feedback, and I'm pleased about that, because we all are working to the same thing, which is, of course, we want it to work as well as it can.

Yes. Has anybody else got any insight on the engagement work, perhaps, that has been done here off the back of this digitisation project, in terms of how many people are engaging with this work now that it has been digitised?

Alfredo.

I don't have any precise figures, actually, but the website has been launched, I don't know, two weeks ago, and we had a meeting at the national museum. So, I don't have the figures for that, sorry.

No, that's fine. I'm happy with anecdotal feedback, even if you don't have a figure to mind.

Well, because it has been shared, not only from the national museum but also from the Arts Council of Wales and the VAGW network, my evidence is that there were a lot of people, actually, having a look at it, seeing what's in the national collection, what categories are in the national collection, how it has been digitised and what types of images you can access and what type of information for those images. But, in terms of numbers, I don't run the website, so I don't really know in terms of the analytical.

Chris, is there anything that you'd like to add?

No, no.

No. Okay.

And the final question I asked this morning, and I'll ask it again in this second session, is: how suitable is online access for experiencing contemporary art?

Well, it's part of the picture, it's a way of sharing, but, of course, no substitute for being there, seeing the actual work itself. But let's hope that it encourages people to go and look at the actual works, to find out more, and that depends, of course, how vast the network is, and to encourage people to use it as a way in to seeing the actual works of art.

Thank you, Sandra. Chris, do you want to go next?

Well, digital access for all collections—contemporary art, archaeology, whatever—is a very, very useful tool. Most researchers these days start off by researching online before moving to actually look at the collections—real collections—and so anything you can do that will bring art or collections to the forefront to make them accessible in people's homes and offices is about access and is absolutely brilliant. I've been working at home for an awfully long time and, yes, certainly, the access to collections and information and data is improving all the time. And it's, for research purposes, absolutely brilliant.

Diolch, Chris. And the final word to Alfredo.

I'm a big fan of digital access, as you can imagine. I work with physical art, but also with digital art, and the fact that the national collection is accessible through your mobile now, it's a great resource, not only for a professional, but think about all the teachers in primary and secondary school—they might do a project, actually, with the students, involving or starting from an artwork that leads from that to that, and they have accessible information and images of those artworks now, so I think it's a good thing, absolutely.

Thank you. Just one final question to the witnesses: was there anything that you had hoped to get across to us this morning that hasn't already been said? It's absolutely fine if not, I just want to give that—. Because we've got a few minutes spare, I wanted to give this opportunity, if there was anything extra you wanted to say. Sandra.

No. From my point of view, I think we've covered many of the areas that I'd hoped we would explore. Thank you.

Thank you so much. And, Chris or Alfredo, was there anything else that you wanted to add?

No. I've got over the points that I wanted to make, and was asked to make, this morning. Thank you.

Okay. And Alfredo.

No, I'm happy with the debate and the dialogue. I think it has been really productive. It's important to have different perspectives on the matter. It's important also to agree to disagree, absolutely.

Great. Well, diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you to the three of you for your evidence this morning. A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you, so that you can check that it's a fair record of what has been said.

It's been very helpful for us to get these different perspectives into perspective.

Thank you very much to the witnesses.

Can I just raise an issue?

To do with the papers?

To do with 4.1.

Yes, certainly. So, this is to do with protecting the national collections.

You've raised this before, Chair. The Minister telling the committee that we need to suggest areas where Government might reduce spending in order to facilitate this further is not what I expect from Ministers; I expect Ministers to accept responsibility for their areas of responsibility, and I expect Government to take these decisions. It's not acceptable for a Minister to write to a committee in those terms, and I think we should be very, very clear to the Minister, the next time she comes in front of this committee, that that is not the sort of correspondence we expect from Government.

It was the—

It's new to me, frankly. I don't remember Ministers speaking to committees like this before.

And I think it's the second time that—

You've raised it before, yes.

—that point has been made. Tom.

Can I ask—? Obviously, as you rightly mentioned, this is the second time that's happened. Did we feed back the first time or not? Because I remember having this discussion after the first time that was made. Did we feed back after the first time, with our views on it?

On this point, a discussion was held in—. I wanted to sense-check whether this was the kind of message that was being put across from other departments. As far as I'm aware, it hasn't been happening, but now that—. I appreciate where Members are coming from, because this has happened more than once, and we will be able to feed that back, because it's the second time that I think almost the exact same wording has been used in a letter to us. But it's good for you both to put that on the record, so thank you. Did anyone else want to say anything on that first paper? No.

And then the second paper is to do with Welsh language standards. Is everyone happy for us to note that paper? Okay.