National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to this afternoon's session of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We're meeting in virtual format today, but, as per normal, all of the Standing Orders and procedures apply to this meeting as if we were meeting there in person as well. We have one set of apologies today, which is from our colleague Adam Price, but we are quorate with the three of us. If we do have any technical problems, however, and one of us drops away, we'll reconvene as soon as possible, because we do need the three other colleagues that intend to be here with us to be quorate. As per normal, the meeting is happening in English and Welsh. You don't need to mute or unmute your microphones; that will be done for you as we go along.

So, with that, we'll go straight to our first substantive item, which is item 2, which is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. And the first of these is a made negative resolution instrument, SL(6)383. It's item 2.1, the Standards Committees (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023, and we have a draft report in our packs. These regulations amend the definition of 'relevant authority' in the Standards Committees (Wales) Regulations 2001 to include corporate joint committees. This ensures that, unless otherwise specified, the 2001 regulations apply to corporate joint committees in relation to standards committees set up by those joint committees as it would to other relevant authorities. And they also correct two small errors in the Welsh language text of the 2001 regulations. Our lawyers have identified two merits reporting points. We don't need a Welsh Government response to these, however. Kate, anything you want to mention on those two points?

The two merits points are just noting that the implications of these regulations were considered as part of the consultation and regulatory impact assessment carried out in relation to the regulations establishing corporate joint committees.

Thank you, Kate. Unless colleagues have any points they want to raise on that, I think we can agree those reporting points.

We'll go on to item 2.3, SL(6)385, the Rating Lists (Valuation Date) (Wales) Order 2023, and, again, we have a draft report in our packs. So, in accordance with the Local Government Finance Act 1988, when compiling a non-domestic rating list, the rateable value of a non-domestic hereditament is to be determined by reference to the day on which the list must be compiled or on a day preceding that day specified by Order. This Order specifies 1 April 2024 for the purposes of the next local and central non-domestic rating lists compiled for Wales after this Order comes into force. And our lawyers have identified one merits reporting point, and, again, a Welsh Government response will not be required. Kate, what can you tell us here?  

The merits point here is drawing Members' attention to a paragraph in the explanatory memorandum that explains that the next revaluation is planned to take place on 1 April 2026, subject to the passage of the necessary primary legislation. 

Thank you, Kate. Colleagues, unless you want to leap in, I'll take it that we are agreeing that reporting point there.

Excuse me, Chair. I think you may have missed item 2.2.

Oh, my apologies. My apologies, indeed. My apologies there. I skipped straight on to 2.3 there. So, can I return then to item 2.2, please? So, SL(6)384, the Standards Committees (Grant of Dispensations) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023, and, Alun, thank you for your hand shooting up there as well, keeping an eye on this in a way that I wasn't properly doing.

These regulations add the corporate joint committees to the definition of 'relevant authority' in the Standards Committees (Grant of Dispensations) (Wales) Regulations 2001. The explanatory memorandum notes that this instrument forms part of a package of instruments that underpin the establishment of corporate joint committees and which seek to ensure that corporate joint committees are subject to the same administrative and governance requirements as the rest of local government. Kate, my error there, but you've identified one merits reporting point here, and, again, we don't need a Welsh Government response on this occasion.

Yes. Again, the merits point is just noting that the costs associated with these regulations were considered as part of the original regulatory impact assessment when the corporate joint committees were established.

Thank you very much, Kate. We're back in the correct order now. Item 2.3, colleagues, you're content with that; Kate has explained it already. We went, I think, in the wrong order there. I think we can agree the reporting point there.

That takes us then on to affirmative resolution instrument 2.4, SL(6)382, the Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Single Transferable Vote) (Wales) Rules 2023. Again, we have a draft report. The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 includes provisions enabling principal councils to decide to conduct their elections using the single transferrable vote system, the STV system, instead of the simple majority system. These rules provide for the conduct of elections where the STV system is used.

Now, on this item, our lawyers have identified six technical and one merits reporting point. We do need a Welsh Government response here, but we haven't received it yet, I don't think. But Kate, over to you.

Thank you. The first technical point identifies some minor drafting errors. The second, third, fourth and fifth technical points are all seeking further information from Welsh Government about the approaches taken to particular matters of the drafting, and the sixth technical point identifies inconsistencies between the Welsh and English language texts of the rules. And finally, the merits point asks Welsh Government whether it considered requiring the inclusion of further information inside voting compartments when the STV system is used, as it will be novel to many voters, and we're waiting for the Welsh Government response.

Thank you very much. Colleagues, are you happy to agree those reporting points while we await the Welsh Government response? We are. Thank you. 

On to item 2.5 then, SL(6)386, the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2023, and again, we have a draft report. This Order contains a number of amendments to the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Order 2020, which established the UK emissions trading scheme. The amendments cover technical changes in response to the changing needs of the scheme participants ascertained via consultation responses. Our lawyers have identified one technical reporting point and a Welsh Government response is not required on this occasion. Kate.

Thank you. The technical reporting point notes that this composite Order is in English only.

Thank you very much, Kate. I think colleagues are happy to agree that reporting point.

We'll then go on to item 3, which is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 that we have previously considered. We have three items to look at under this section.

The first of those is item 3.1, SL(6)379, the Local Government Officers (Political Restrictions) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2023. We have the report and a Welsh Government response in our packs. We considered this instrument at our meeting last week and we then laid our report the following day. So, I just invite Members to consider the Welsh Government response to the report, which we have subsequently received. Are we happy to note that? We are. Thank you very much.

Item 3.2, SL(6)380, the National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Wales) Regulations 2023. Again, we have a report and the Welsh Government response in our packs. We considered this instrument on our committee at our meeting last week and we laid our report the following day. Again, I simply ask Members to note and consider the Welsh Government's response to that report, which we have now received.

If you're happy to do so, we'll move on to item 3.3, SL(6)381, the Firefighters' Pensions (Remediable Service) (Wales) Regulations 2023. Again, we have a report and the Welsh Government response in our packs. We considered this instrument at last week's meeting as well, and we reported the following day, and, again, it's to note and consider the Welsh Government's response. 

So, if we're content with those, we can move on to item 4, where we have notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. The first in this section is item 4.1. We have a written statement and correspondence from the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip in respect of the Interministerial Group for Safety, Security and Migration. So, if Members are happy to note the correspondence from the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip in relation to the meeting of that group, which took place on 11 July, just to note that the letter informs us that the areas of discussion focused on immigration and national security. During the meeting, the Minister informs us, she expressed Welsh Government's concerns on aspects of the Illegal Migration Bill and UK Government delays in processing asylum applications. The letter also informs us that the next meeting is due in November.

Item 4.2, we have a written statement and correspondence from the Minister for Economy in respect of the Interministerial Group for Trade, a meeting of which took place on 7 September. The Minister informs us that, during the meeting, there were discussions regarding the latest updates on the India and Canada free trade agreement negotiations and the latest developments also around the UK's accession to the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Item 4.3, then, we have correspondence with the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd in respect of regulations to implement the Windsor framework, that suite of regulations. The Minister responds to our letter of 18 September, where we asked some specific questions about those regulations. Now, amongst other things, we had requested a copy of the memorandum of understanding that the Welsh Government referred to in the the Windsor
Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023, which the Welsh Government said

'will set out an agreement process to operate for any future possible changes to the Scheme',

which is clearly of interest to us. The Minister said that

'Work is ongoing to finalise version 1 of the MoU'

and she will share a version with the committee once it's been published, which we are grateful for.

Item 4.4, then, we have correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government in respect of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee meeting that took place on 20 September. The Minister tells us that those in attendance agreed the revised terms of reference and the operating protocols for the group, and the letter goes on to detail the topics of discussion. And to note as well, the Scottish Government will host the next meeting, which will be in January.

And then, item 4.5, we have correspondence from the Minister for Climate Change in respect of the Fluorinated Greenhouse Gases (Amendment) Regulations 2023. We note the correspondence with the Minister in respect of those regulations, and just to note that the Minister responds to our letter of 15 September, in which we asked questions relating to the consent process that has been followed in respect of the regulations, engagement through the common framework structures and the impact of the regulations on retained EU law. The response is helpful to us, and we might want to defer some discussion to the private session, so we'll return to that.

Item 4.6, then, we have correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd in which she informs us of her intention to consent to the UK Government laying the Official Controls (Plant Health) (Prior Notification) and Phytosanitary Conditions (Amendment) Regulations 2023. The Minister notes that the regulations update aspects of the phytosanitary conditions regulations, and they introduce an amendment to enable provisions within the borders target operating model. The Minister confirms that, although the regulations relate to a devolved area, they impact on imports of plants and plant products GB wide. So, the Minister states, 

'it is normally the policy of the Welsh Government to legislate for Wales in matters of devolved competence.'

But, on this occasion, she considers it appropriate for these regulations to be laid by the UK Government. Secondly, the Minister states that there is no policy divergence between the Welsh and UK Governments in this matter. And lastly, introducing separate regulations in Wales and England may cause additional burdens on the Animal and Plant Health Agency, businesses, traders and growers. So, we appreciate that explanation from the Minister. 

And then, colleagues, finally within the public session, we also have some correspondence to note. I'll take these in order. There are two items to note. First of all, there's a letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner, under item 5.1, in which she requests a meeting to discuss her priorities as commissioner as well as the relevance of the Welsh language to our committee's area of work. So, if you're happy, we might return to this in private session.

Under item 5.2, we have a letter from the Finance Committee to the Minister for Finance and Local Government in respect of the 2024-25 draft budget and her engagement with the committee on ways that the ministerial written evidence on Welsh Government's draft budget proposals can be improved. This is of particular interest to us, not least on the justice element of the budget. 

So, colleagues, with that, if you're happy now to move into private session, can I put to you the motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting and that we'll move into private? Are you happy? We are.