National Assembly for Wales

I'd like to welcome you all to the meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee today. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. We've received apologies from Buffy Williams this morning. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? I can see no declarations of interest.

We'll move on to the first item on our agenda, which is our eighth evidence session on our enquiry, 'Do disabled children and young people have equal access to education and childcare?'

I'd like to welcome our witnesses who've joined us here this morning. We have Gaynor Davies, director of education for Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and representative for the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Liz Jones, inclusion lead for the Vale of Glamorgan Council and representative for the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Sharon Davies, head of education, Welsh Local Government Association; and Catherine Davies, additional learning needs policy officer, Welsh Local Government Association. You're all very welcome here this morning.

Members have a number of questions to put to you. I'll make a start on some general questions around the extent of the issue. The committee has heard that there's a lack of affordable, accessible childcare for disabled children and those with additional needs. To what extent does the availability of accessible childcare vary across Wales, and, in particular, perhaps, how accessible is childcare for those who live in more rural areas? I don't know who would like to start. Sharon.

Do I need to press anything?

No.

I think we need clarification around what does childcare mean across Wales. If we're looking at the very early stages of childcare, they are private businesses. If they offer the childcare offer and if they offer the educational offer, then they will ordinarily have a service-level agreement with a local authority. If they don't, then they remain private entities, which necessarily have nothing to do with the local authority, or—. What I'm trying to say is the local authority has limited access to them. If they're registered, then, obviously, they have a Care Inspectorate Wales inspection and sometimes a joint inspection with Estyn in going forward. But other than that—. It's just that clarification over childcare settings, because it can be quite confusing in that respect. So, there will be variation across Wales because they are private entities, and depending what that childcare setting is offering and what they've signed up for, then the provision will be slightly different in each setting, as it were. In regard to rural, I think we recognise there are issues in rural areas, such as schools. They would be the same generic issues that they would have in rural locations, such as is there enough provision in the first place, the distance families have to travel to a particular setting, is the transport infrastructure in place. All that adds up to that accessibility. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm just thinking about some forms of childcare that are less available than others, perhaps, for example childcare for older children or after school. Do you see that as being an issue around Wales?

We don't hold any data on that, so I wouldn't be able to comment right down to the nitty-gritty in that respect. Again, it comes back to what the setting can offer on their capacity and what they are able to offer in that respect.

Does anybody else have any points? Gaynor.

After-school provision can be a challenge, I think, in some settings and locations, because all of these provisions are dependent on numbers, aren't they? And often, these are run as businesses, and for them to be financially viable, they have to have sufficient demand to meet needs. I think in some local authorities, there are pressure points for older children from age eight upwards and from the age of 11 upwards as well—there are challenges around that. I think breakfast club provision is widely available across Wales and I think many parents utilise that provision as a means of childcare for working parents and so on. There are benefits around that. So, I think there are elements of challenges, but I think it does depend on the location of the provision and the demand for the provision as well.

Brilliant. Laura Jones. 

You mentioned breakfast clubs. So, if there were children there with specific needs, would the provision there be—? Apart from the teachers that are there running breakfast club, would there be people there that would be able to look after those children’s needs?

The model and delivery of breakfast club provision will vary from local authority to local authority, so I can’t give a general response in terms of what happens across Wales. In our local authority, for example, breakfast club provision is a co-ordinated approach between catering services and school-based staff, and if you have children who have additional learning needs, that’s risk assessed, and appropriate support then put in place to ensure that those children can access that provision. However, I don't know what the models would be across Wales. But certainly that was the case speaking from personal experiences. 

Do you think breakfast clubs are available for all children, then, not just those without any additional learning needs? And who would pay for any additional one-to-one support that would be needed for a child with ALN to get that support they need, to be able to use breakfast club like every other child?

I think if it's breakfast clubs at school, my understanding would be—and I'm sure my colleagues'—that that would be down to the school. As Gaynor mentioned, they would risk assess, they would put the additional support in, and that’s undertaking with the school then and possibly having a conversation with the LA in regard to the catering services as well. 

I'm just thinking about the one-to-one support specifically. So, the one-to-one support teacher that would be in in the school day time, are they expected to come in earlier to look after that child during the breakfast club hours, from 8 a.m. onwards?

It depends on what the risk assessment would detail. It depends on their contractual hours as well. Because it would be a separate contract, possibly. So all of that would be in play.

Would it be down to the school to stump up the funds for that, or would that be the LA?

I think what we can't provide is a generic response that would cover what happens across Wales. I think the model of delivery for breakfast club will vary from local authority to local authority. In some cases that function is something where local authorities take the lead in ensuring that provision of breakfast club is there, and the resourcing, if you like, for the additional support that's provided during the breakfast club provision is provided by the local authority. That's in my own local authority. I don't know what the case is across Wales. I think that you'd need to look at that in depth if you wanted a holistic view of what happens across Wales. But as Sharon has indicated, who undertakes that function would very much depend on the contractual arrangements. Obviously, if a member of staff is allocated to work for a child during school hours, it wouldn't necessarily be the same person that would provide that support during breakfast club provision.

Thank you, that's interesting.

How well do local authorities use their childcare sufficiency assessments to identify gaps in the childcare market, specifically in relation to childcare for disabled children? And what actions do local authorities take to ensure that there is accessible childcare in their areas? Perhaps you have ideas on how that can be improved. Who would like to start? Catherine.

Childcare sufficiency assessments will highlight areas of potential unmet need, but again, it comes back to the fact that, at the end of the day, it's down to individual providers to decide whether they want to set up in an area. If there's unmet need in a particular area, the councils can't force providers to suddenly establish a setting. 

The childcare sufficiency assessments as well, you've got to remember, are once every five years, and there's an action plan or a kind of refresh done every year. The process is quite lengthy. A lot of work goes into a CSA. A huge amount of data needs to be gathered, a lot of analysis, consultation, scrutiny by cabinet in each local authority—that can take five or six months, and it almost gets to the point that, by the time the CSA is published, it's out of date, particularly if in the meantime you may have had some national Government-level changes to policy, for example. I think the last time a CSA was done, nobody knew, for example, that there would be an expansion of Flying Start in the way that it is now being done, if you see what I mean.

That's not to say they're not useful. I think the annual refresh is probably more important. Most local authority childcare teams know exactly what's going on, what provision they've got in their local authorities, because that's their day-to-day job; that's what they're there to do. So, they kind of know. I think, perhaps, sometimes they wouldn't necessarily have the detail about the levels of children with disability. If they're registered disabled, they might well do. But, obviously, there are some children who come into childcare and it isn't even known that they might have a need. Unless it's an obvious need from when they were born, they might not realise that there's an additional need until they actually go to that setting, and maybe it's noticed by the professionals there.

So, they will use their CSAs, but, as I say, they're almost—. I wouldn't say they're redundant by the time they're completed, because it is an important process, and it is important to go out there and find out from parents what they think they need when they're looking at childcare. However, for those who've got children, you don't necessarily think about that unless and until you're in a position to need childcare. So, if you like, you might ask parents, but they're like, 'Well, I don't know, I haven't really thought about it because I don't know what I'm going to do—will I need childcare for work, will I need it because my child has—?' or, 'Does my child have needs and therefore I'll be looking for a particular setting that can meet those in a particular way?' It's all quite fluid. So, they will use them, but, again, it's not—. If you like, it's not always a kind of, 'Oh, there's the CSA—the CSA says we've got this unmet need, therefore we need this here'. It doesn't quite work like that, if you see what I mean. 

And again, as I said, at the end of the day, councils can offer start-up grants, they can identify where there may be unmet need and they can offer, perhaps, start-up grants to providers who might be interested in setting up in a particular area or to deliver a particular service, but they can't force them to do that, because at the end of the day, they're businesses, they're commercial providers, and they have to do what's right for them financially. 

Laura. 

Sorry, I've had too much coffee this morning. In terms of what you just said in terms of they're changeable and they need to be changeable, how adaptable are these CSAs? You said you can't predict from when they're done to what happens later down the line, because of policy changing and everything like that. And you also said that when a child comes to the school, often there's been no prior support for parents, et cetera, because they're not aware of a need their child has, so when they get to the school it's a brand new need that presents itself. In those CSAs, how much room is there for reactionary funds in terms of, suddenly, that teacher will need a bit more training in this specific need? Does it incorporate that? 

The CSA is a very strategic level thing; it is not—. I'll hand over to other colleagues who can talk about that in more detail, but the CSA is a strategic thing. It's governed by regulations that certain things have to be in it, certain views have to be sought, certain consultations have to be done as part of that. But it's supposed to be a strategic thing. The annual refresh, where local authorities—. They will have had an action plan, and then it will go back and say, 'Well, actually, this has changed now, we know there's perhaps greater demand in a particular part of Cardiff'—or wherever it might be—for such and such, or, as I say, 'Now, actually, what we're focusing on is Welsh Government—'. I'm just quoting this because this has happened since the last CSAs were done. There has been a decision to expand Flying Start in a way that Welsh Government have decided, so, obviously, that's a huge focus now for local authorities to deliver that, because that's in the programme for government. As I say, local authority staff, the childcare teams, they do know on a day-to-day basis where things are at and what's happening. So, it is a very strategic thing. It's a different matter when we're talking about suddenly it's been identified that children have got an individual need and that need needs to be met. I'll pass over to other colleagues to answer that one. 

Say, for instance, an individual need has been identified—for argument's sake, an additional learning need—all local authorities have an early years lead officer for additional learning needs. That's a statutory post, and they are all in place across Wales. All providers will have access to this and it is free of cost, so they would be able to be reactionary and provide training to build up capacity, where that is deemed necessary. The role is not just reactionary; it is also about having comprehensive training modules in place as well, because, of course, we need to be anticipatory—we need to be looking to make sure that our settings are inclusive without exception. Because that is not just a priority; it's a moral imperative that that's actually in place.

However, it is recognised that there are times when we need to think, 'Well, actually, maybe what we have been providing needs a refresh', and it might be that a particular child that presents has difficulties that we haven't come across before. So, it's fine to be reactionary every now and again, but we should not—we should not—depend on being reactionary. What I'm saying is there is an early years lead officer for ALN in every single local authority, with the responsibility for providing training to develop capacity in an anticipatory way as well as providing support as and when, on a bespoke level, for individual children. Say, for instance, at a local authority level, where the setting is deemed as requiring additional support to accommodate an individual child, there would be mechanisms in place in every single authority. Typically, we might refer to them as panels, where multi-agency, multidisciplinary professionals come to discuss how, ideally, it would best be to meet individual needs.

Brilliant. Thank you. We'll move on now to questions from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. All around this table, we all know the pressures that local authorities are under—you've only got to read the news or sit in the Chamber to understand the pressures that local authorities are under. And that obviously equates down into our schools as well. But as a committee, we've been told that schools are telling families that they're not able to meet the needs of children who need that additional support. What's your view on that? Is that happening in schools? Is that something you've experienced, and if it is, how can we overcome the issues that we're finding? We'll probably start with Gaynor, I think.

Yes, I'm happy to answer that. Undoubtedly, schools are facing financial pressures, in the same way that councils are facing financial pressures. And as part of that, from a strategic planning perspective, they have to ensure that they deploy resources in the best possible way. In order to ensure effective inclusion, we need strong leaders in our schools to make the right decisions, to effectively and strategically plan for what are statutory duties, ultimately. So, meeting the needs of children with additional learning needs is something that isn't optional—it is a statutory requirement. And as such, I'm sure that, when headteachers are making the difficult decisions about how to use their resources, those statutory responsibilities have to be forefront in terms of their decision making and their strategic planning. So, yes, undoubtedly, there are financial pressures, but those obligations are very clear. I think that if parents are receiving those messages, then they would generally raise those concerns with local authorities, and local authorities then, obviously, have a clear responsibility and a duty to work in partnership with the schools and the families to ensure that appropriate statutory provision is made.

Similarly, with governing bodies, we have to ensure that they're aware of what their statutory responsibilities are as well. So, it is about ensuring that parents are well informed. The new legislation is complex, and we have a very clear responsibility to ensure that the information that we provide is accessible, so that parents are aware of their rights, and can advocate for their children and ensure that the right provision is put in place. But meeting the needs of children with ALN is not just about resourcing, it is also about creating the right culture and environment in a school context. We need to ensure that leadership is strong—it's not just to do with the ALNCO, it's to do with leadership at a school level, and effective governance as well. But ultimately, it's about good-quality teaching and learning as well—we need to ensure that there is high-quality professional learning in place, to ensure that our workforce have the necessary skills and tools to meet the needs of all learners, including those with additional learning needs as well.

Heledd.

To answer your question, I suppose there are plenty of excellent examples about where provision is highly effective. And of course, when we hear personal accounts from parents of when things do not happen well, we've got a duty, haven't we, to look at that and explore that further and to put that right, really.

In terms of support for parents who perhaps don't have a voice or don't know how to access appropriate support, obviously there are a clear obligations on local authorities to ensure that there are family liaison officers who are available to advise and guide parents. We need to ensure that the relationships with the community and voluntary groups and parent groups is strong, so that they're well informed about what their rights are and what it is that their child should be receiving and accessing. But we've also got responsibilities, I think, as local authorities, to ensure that the provision within our schools is high quality and that schools are making appropriate provision for the learners who do actually need that. For example, in local authorities there are designated members of staff who've got a key role in quality assuring the provision that's made available for learners at a school level. So, I think, contextually, provision varies from school to school, and we need to ensure that there's consistency across the piece, so that no child is disadvantaged. I don't know if Liz wants to supplement that in terms of her perspective.

Of course, to be truly inclusive is about not just embracing difference; it's about learning from it as well, and, of course, realising that inclusion is not a destination, it is a continuous process. We have to make sure that our leaders continuously horizon scan, to make sure that they're aware of the different cohorts. Because, of course, no cohort stays the same; you should be looking to change your provision on an annual basis, because it should be looking to adapt and meet the needs of your children, as and when they arrive. So, again, there are the anticipatory issues here; it's not about waiting until they arrive at the school.

But I suppose what we need to be really, really careful about is actually understanding what does that support look like. All the evidence that we have, and all the research—and it is evidenced through research—is that the biggest difference that you can make to children, whatever their needs are, is through the quality of teaching and learning, and that all teachers, without exception, are good at all times for all children. So, it is about looking at how do we develop our workforce. And again, to be fair, the Welsh Government is making sure that a huge amount of emphasis is put into professional learning, to looking at ensuring that leaders develop practitioners who are both competent and confident in meeting the needs of most of our learners.

Heledd, did you want to come back in? No. Laura.

I've visited a lot of schools across Wales, and following on from what Heledd Fychan just said, the picture that we're getting is much darker then you've just said to us. We're hearing and seeing headteachers noticeably upset because they can't provide the ALN support that they want to provide to their children, and that's not just affecting those children with ALN, it's affecting all pupils, as you just said. We need to see this in the round. So, it's affecting everyone's education, because that support's not there. And it's not because of bad management, I would argue; I'd say that there's just not enough money. So, I'd be interested to see where you think that money should come from. Do you think that the Welsh Government should play a greater role to ensure that that money is there? And you mention consistency—one of you mentioned consistency just now. For me, it seems to be that there's a postcode lottery on which local authority is better at providing and ensuring that that level of support is there. And you talk about best practice. Is there a better way, as a local government representative for the whole of Wales, that you could share that best practice across Wales? Thank you.

I think there are forums where best practice is shared, especially working through consortia. They're more the operational side, if you like. They are working with schools and they feed back to the appropriate local authorities, then. So, they go in, they feed back. And again, it comes back to what Liz said about that professional learning, because that's key, then, to—. There's a broad level of professional learning, but then it's pinning it down to the needs of individual schools, individual teachers, individual needs. It's recognising, through their school development plans, what are the needs of those schools, what are the needs of those learners. And that's why you are going to get it quite varied, because the needs will look very different in each setting across local authorities.

I suppose the difficulty in going forward is, as you quite rightly mentioned, the financial constraints that are facing local authorities, Government and statutory services across the board, not just in education. Education is reliant on other services as well. It's not just education, it's those support services around, and some of them are non-statutory, so they're going to get hit; there are no two ways about it. So, it is about looking at the level of need, the provision currently offered, and how then—. It comes back to, as Gaynor mentioned, the priorities then coming back. What are the priorities? What is front-loaded? Because under the current climate in going forward, there isn't enough money, and that's the bottom line, but that doesn't say we can't deliver good education and cover everybody's needs—it's down to that prioritisation and recognising the resources, and it's about schools collaborating with each other. Maybe that school may not have the expertise or the correct resources within the school, but the school down the road in the cluster may have. So, I think it is about looking at what is available and how best do we go forward with what little funding there is. That's not to say it's not deliverable—it comes with its own challenges—but it is about looking at different ways as well.

I'm really conscious of time, because James needs to—. So, just anything quick, Liz.

I was just going to say an example of trying to develop consistency across Wales—I can speak from my particular area of expertise, so around the development of the skills and expertise of an additional learning needs co-ordinator. So, from a Welsh Government point of view, they have backed this and created it, and it is a national pathway for additional learning needs co-ordinators. It is an online training module available in Welsh and English, as you would expect, created from scratch, and ALNCOs can engage at different levels, because, again, it takes in prior knowledge, so you can engage, if you like, at a basic level, at an intermediate level and at an advanced level. And in addition, Welsh Government have then created modules on the Master's in Education—Wales around ALN as well. So, we have a whole suite, from start to finish, to develop consistency in the skills and expertise for additional learning needs co-ordinators.

I'm conscious of time, even though I'm thinking about questions here now with this. James.

I could ask a hundred more questions as well, going in a different tack now. I'll probably come back to some of those things later.

You talk about rights and listening to learners a lot more. To what extent do you think that local authorities consult with learners about accessibility strategies and how young people actually feed into those? And how many of those accessibility strategies are actually up to date in local authorities? And do you actually think they meaningfully engage with young people? Who wants to start? Gaynor.

Well, I think it's difficult to know, without gathering first-hand evidence from all the different authorities, what the quality of accessibility strategies are and strategic equality plans are. I think local authorities have an obligation to ensure that schools and governing bodies are well informed about what their statutory rights are, what they should be doing as part of that process, and I think integral to accessibility strategies and strategic equality plans is the need to engage with key stakeholders—that should shape what you're equality objectives are, for example, in strategic equality plans and in accessibility plans as well. And there are requirements. So, it's important that we shape that. For example, in our local authority, we've issued guidance to schools, we've issued model policies to schools and governing bodies around what should be in accessibility plans and strategic equality plans, and governing bodies as well need to be very clear about what their responsibilities are in ensuring that that information is in place, and that it's made accessible to key stakeholders as well. There are requirements, for example, aren't there, to include this information in the annual report with the governing body, and to include these plans on school websites as well so that they can be scrutinised appropriately. It has to be shaped, doesn’t it, on the voices of young people and families. 

Sharon, does the Welsh Local Government Association have this information of how many of these accessibility strategies are up to date?

No, but we can enquire. 

You'd think that you would have that information—or you should have that information, really. 

We don't hold any data. We don't—. We're not an organisation that holds data, but we can enquire and ask local authorities.

It's interesting. I'm just shocked that—. So, in RCT—that's your council—are the strategies up to date there, in the council where you're director of education?

So, I think it was last year we issued updated guidance and policies to all of our governing bodies and schools in relation to what the expectations were. We request information in from schools as well, and our accessibility strategy has been out to consultation as well. But I'm here as a representative of the Association of Directors of Education in Wales not—

Yes, I'm just interested in what you're doing in the local authority. 

So, if I give you an example, and, again, this is typically what would happen. We're just embarking now on going out on refresher training, so, again, a local authority would always know that there's a need to revisit on a regular basis, and to remind schools of the public sector equality duty, as it stands for them. So, if you like, there's always a rolling programme that you keep coming back to—because, of course, headteachers change—just to make sure that everybody knows what the local authority expectations are and, therefore, to support schools in being able to do that. 

Okay. We'll move on to a question now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd. 

Thank you, Chair. One of the things—. Sorry, if I can start with—. We've heard lots of evidence, heartbreaking evidence, and there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the answers we've just received and what we've been told by people from across Wales, desperate families who are not accessing, and what some of the experts have told us as well, that we've never had a better understanding of what support should be made available, but that there's not that ability to provide that at the moment, hence why we're seeing an increase in school absences, especially with children with ALN, and also home education, where people feel that they have no choice and no support. So, I wonder, why, given everything you've outlined, some people believe that they're still experiencing these barriers, because, also, I was a bit concerned with your comment that a school may not be able to provide that, but there may be someone in a cluster that could provide. Actually, that child could be damaged from one negative experience in school that could mean that they would never want to engage with authorities again. So, I just wonder why you think there's a disconnect at present between what you've just been outlying to us and the barriers we've been told people are experiencing. And it's not one or two people, it's consistent across Wales. Even within RCT, I've had 120 families get in touch with me, just in the region I represent. So, I just wonder why that disconnect exists. 

Can I just clarify when I say a school can't deliver? That's not what I meant. What I mean is, in the way we're used to schools working individually now, because of the financial constraints in going forward, schools, as well as LAs, have to be innovative in going forward. Sometimes, it's down to the recruitment and retention of staff that that school may not, at that present time, be able to maybe offer what they might have been able to offer maybe six months before, due to lots of various things. But that's not to say the school won't offer it; they just have to look at different means and different ways of offering that. So, I just wanted to clarify that, rather than say the school doesn't offer it; the school will do everything it can to provide provision, appropriate provision, to every learner within that school. 

Undoubtedly, I think, in the post-pandemic phase, we are seeing increasingly complex needs at all levels in the system. There is no doubt about that, and it has been very challenging, I think, for educational settings to make provision, to meet need, given that high level of complexity. Because schools have faced, and families have faced, unprecedented challenges, haven't they, during the pandemic, and we can't get away from that. I think some local authorities have been more adversely affected than others in terms of the rates of COVID that were experienced, and the loss that's been experienced at a community level as well. 

And to pick up on the point about the worries of school leaders around capacity to make provision, that is a very real worry that headteachers have. I don't think any director of education across Wales would dispute that. They are challenging times. Of course, there are many accounts of parents who are experiencing difficulties, and we have to work with those families to ensure that the appropriate provision is made. That's not to say that there is a bleak picture around the provision that's made by schools. There is a lot of excellent provision that's made by schools, but obviously we've got a duty, haven't we, to respond to concerns that parents raise, and to ensure that statutory needs are met. That's our role, isn't it, as a local authority, to work in partnership with schools, to enhance their capacity to meet the increasingly complex need that's coming through. I think Welsh Government, to be fair, have delegated resources to local authorities to support with the roll-out of the Act, but the need has increased significantly. So, what we're trying to do as part of our roles is to ensure that schools are well supported, that families and children are well supported, during this really important transitional phase. So, yes, and—

But the resources aren't sufficient to meet the need.

It's difficult to make a sweeping comment like that, because every context will be unique, and schools have those difficult decisions to make, based on their self-evaluation and based on their resourcing. It's more challenging for smaller educational settings, because sometimes a child can come to a school with really complex needs, but there is still a statutory responsibility to make need. So, we have to work with schools to make sure that appropriate provision is made for the children where those needs are there. Yes, in elective home education numbers, we have seen an increase, I think, across Wales, in terms of the data there, and I think most education directors are very cognisant of that and work with families as best they can to address any issues.

Is it a concern for you?

Absolutely it's a concern, but it is, then, working with Welsh Government, with families, to try and find why we are seeing an increase. As Gaynor said, to do a blanket statement to say, 'Oh, it's because of this', would be unfair. It would be doing the families a disservice. So, it is about maybe doing that research behind, asking those families, 'What is it?', because it could look very different. One family's needs compared to another family's could be very different. But I think there is a general concern. We have discussed it at ADEW. We are seeing an increase—Welsh Government are aware of this—but it's about those lines of communication, and that's got to be a two-way.

And in supporting the needs of children with ALN, of course resourcing is one aspect, but the other aspect, as we've alluded to, is around ensuring that there is high-quality teaching and learning across all settings for all learners, and that we work with schools to upskill them, to provide that professional learning where that's required, and to work in partnership to ensure that children's needs are met in the school context as well. Sometimes, that can be about staffing and resourcing, but other times it can be about strategies and approaches that are adopted, and of course all local authorities will have specialists in the field in terms of educational psychology and specialist teachers across a range of needs, to support that inclusive agenda.

Heledd.

How much of an emphasis do you believe there is when local authorities are setting their priorities for investment to ensure that their buildings, in particular, are suitable, because, obviously, not all of our schools have had the investments? So, how much of a barrier do you think it is in terms of resourcing the facilities to be accessible, especially with physical disabilities, and is that something that's at the forefront of minds?

If you look at the twenty-first century schools programme—I know it's sustainable communities for learning now, sorry—that's been a highly successful programme over the last few years, and that's because, obviously, it's a joint venture with Welsh and with LAs, but there has been huge investment from LAs across the boards in schools generally, and if you look through the band A, band B, it's been hugely successful. It's been one of the success stories, if you like, from Wales, when you look across the UK. Again, it comes back to the financial situation going forward. We know in going forward that that programme has to be realigned, if you like, because there isn't enough money, going forward, but that's not to say—. In between that, LAs do have maintenance grants, there is some grant funding that comes through as well, and LAs are very good at knowing their school stock and knowing where those upgrades are needed in a timely fashion. And I think the twenty-first century schools programme—the evidence is there through that programme. I think, in going forward, maybe that is something that LAs and the Welsh Government do need to monitor, because obviously we're not going to be able to continue on the same pathway in a timely manner. But I think LAs are well rehearsed at prioritising in that respect. 

Diolch. That's fine. 

Okay. Brilliant. James Evans. 

It's me now, is it? Lovely. We've talked a lot about training for school staff, and there's been quite a lot that Liz has talked about on upskilling. Do you think there is adequate training? Do you think LAs provide enough opportunities for staff to go on training courses, considering the amount of pressure that school staff are under as well to find the time to physically go and do training?

I think that's a really interesting question, because, if you like, there's a move away now from stand-alone, just one-off training sessions where you have, maybe, a 'sage on the stage', and there is a huge shift to looking at professional learning. So, this is about—and it's what you were alluding to earlier—when you're looking at trying to skill up your staff within your own school. It is about professional learning within that school to develop high-quality teaching and learning. There will always be a place for one-off training sessions, where you need an expert, if you like, in a particular area that can impart that knowledge, but then, in terms of using that to influence your teaching and learning, that really needs to happen in schools to be able to do that. And there is strong evidence behind that. All the information that we have that backs up the professional learning offer and the way we expect our schools to invest in workforce development, I would say that that's operating very well at the moment, but recognising that there is always a need to make sure that there are experts, if you like, available to be able to walk alongside somebody when there is a need to do that.

We've got some really good examples of effective cluster arrangements as well, where you've got a lead practitioner within clusters whose role it is to cascade that knowledge, those skills and expertise. Local authorities, probably across Wales, I would say, have good cluster models around this. But, capacity to release staff is a challenge, I think, particularly because there are some challenges around supply agency staff and so on. So, I think, perhaps, sometimes we've offered too much training, because it is about accessibility and releasing staff to attend training. But, as Liz has rightly highlighted, it needs to be bespoke and specific to the school, and it's at its most powerful when you've got all the staff hearing the same message at the same time, particularly around inclusive practice. And the additional learning needs co-ordinator role is a strategic role, and they have got a key role in ensuring that practice chain, so that every teacher is a teacher of ALN, really, and it's not seen as something that's specific to the ALNCO.

Because this rolls on to the recruitment and the retention of staff as well. I had something drop into my inbox this week from a headteacher who wanted to close her school, because they've got five pupils with serious additional learning needs issues and four of the teachers in the school decided that they didn't want to come into work anymore because they were spending all of their time focusing on those individual pupils and not helping anybody else, putting severe pressure on them. They're saying that they do not want to teach anymore and a headteacher has come to me saying, 'I've got to close the school because I haven't got any teachers to run my school anymore', because they don't want to come in and become almost social workers for four pupils, when they have to teach everybody. So, I'm just interested in what more you think we can do to support teachers, to help recruit and retain our staff, because, on the current trajectory, what I see and I think the evidence that we've gathered is that teachers don't want to enter the profession anymore and don't want to be in the profession because they're ending up becoming basically social care workers for pupils, rather than actually doing the teaching work that they're actually trained to do. So, I'm just interested in what your views would be on that.

I think we'd all recognise those concerns and those challenges facing schools, and if you think of rural schools and if you think of Welsh-medium as well, we know that there are issues there with recruitment and retention across the board. It is about working with the Welsh Government, feeding that back to the Welsh Government. For example, in the Welsh-medium section, there is a 10-year workforce plan, so, hopefully we'll address that, but we do know that we are at crisis point now. But that was the comment I made earlier about schools, and as Gaynor and as Liz mentioned—it's about being collaborative because if the resource isn't there, for whatever reason, and it's not there, it's about sourcing that resource. You still have to deliver high-quality schools, as you've said. I would imagine headteachers having very sleepless nights because they want to deliver high-quality education to all their learners, not to just a specific—. But it's how then do you recruit? How do you retain? Some areas in Cardiff, I would imagine, are not facing the same issues as possibly south-east Wales or rural Wales.

So, there are different issues in regard to recruitment and retention, and not just teachers, but support staff as well—they're key on the ground as well, working with learners, and we're seeing that across the board. But, not playing it down in any shape or form, we're seeing this across the board in local authorities and in other sectors, not just in education. There is a recruitment and retention crisis across the board.

But it's making sure as well that teachers and professionals feel like their professional opinions are also being listened to.

Yes, absolutely.

Because something that I've picked up as well is that you've got teachers and headteachers speaking to county halls and such, where the centre is of the education department, about individual pupils and that they need more specialist provision. They're being told that by the ALN co-ordinators in the school, and the central educational departments are saying, 'No, you've got to manage this yourself'. And I feel that, sometimes, the headteachers I've been speaking to feel that their professional opinions aren't being taken into consideration when they're actually trying to make choices for their schools, and it puts huge pressures on them. So, I was interested in some of your thoughts on that and then I'll take us in a different direction, if that's okay.

I think the key here is about inclusion, isn't it? Sometimes, those perceptions may be that you need a specialist in for inclusion, and Liz is the expert here—it needs everybody's effort involved. It is about training, it is about upskilling, because, as Gaynor already mentioned, there are learners and families coming through the door now with completely—. They're far more complex than what we've seen over the years. So, it is then about getting that appropriate support to schools. Sometimes it's not additional support that's needed, but a different way of thinking. It is about upskilling, it is about professional learning as well, but it's looking at—. And that's why I came back earlier to individual schools looking at their needs, and they will change on an annual basis, depending on—and they can change on a weekly basis—what learners come through their door and who present themselves. Therefore, it's about having those conversations then as a school leadership team and then with the LA to see, 'Right, what is needed? How can we be as inclusive as we can?'

Okay. I'll pick up my final question at the end, because I want to move on to transport now, if that's okay. On school transport, do you feel that people with additional needs are able to access safe modes of school transport to get them back and forth to schools? Do you think that that's something where there's a problem, especially in rural areas as such, where there can be a lot of risk for some people in taking children to and from specialist provision or different things?

Maybe Gaynor will be able to add to this, but I would imagine it's the same—. LAs have their home-to-school policies, they've got statutory obligations and those include all learners, not just specific learners, and, therefore, they have to meet those statutory obligations no matter what the cost, and sometimes the bills can be quite costly in general, especially when you're thinking about rural areas, but across the board.

Okay, thank you. I know we're running out of time now, Chair.

No, carry on, James.

No, I'm—

You're done?

Yes, I'm done. I'm done, because we're short on time.

Right, great. We've got some questions now from Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. I'm going to ask about impacts, if I may, beginning with what you believe the impacts on learners with additional needs are and, indeed, their families, of not being able to access suitable childcare provision?

Who's going to start on that? Gaynor.

I think accessing suitable childcare provision is really, really important, particularly if children have got additional learning needs, because the earlier the children access that provision, the sooner that that information can be shared, that children's needs can be assessed and identified, and appropriate support put in place. So, I guess we have a responsibility to ensure that parents are aware of what's available out there and to ensure that we've got mechanisms at local authority level to ensure that the children that require the support are able to access that in a way that's streamlined and well informed. Most local authorities, I think, would have panels that inform that decision-making—as Liz mentioned, that's multi-agency. So, extracting the relevant information and support, I guess, from health boards, is key to that process, to ensure that we do appropriately identify need, and that childcare settings have the support that they need to meet learners' needs.

There are training implications there as well, of course. It's not just about the provision of support; it's also about ensuring that childcare settings have access to highly specific training to ensure that they have the appropriate skills and knowledge to meet need as well. But the barriers, I suppose, from a parental perspective may well be that they have concerns that the child may not have sufficient support, or the staff may not have the skill sets, potentially, to meet their needs, and that's where local authorities needs to step in and to ensure that that training and workforce development is there and the support is available to advise and guide. As Liz has mentioned, the lead officer statutory post is critical in ensuring that a joined-up approach is there, and what I would say, in terms of professional practice, with the new Act, is that I think provision in the early years and post-16 has particularly strengthened as a consequence of that, I think.

I can give you an example of how practice continues to develop, and this is across Wales. So, again, coming back to your point earlier about the consistency, given that now they are statutory posts, the early years lead officers in each local authority are all engaged in early years panels, and they are multidisciplinary and multi-agency. All early years lead officers obviously provide that function within the local authorities, and they meet at a regional level, but there is also a national forum for the early years lead officers—so, again, looking to develop consistency of practice and learn from good practice. Again, it's early days, because the lead officer post is relatively new, but that just gives a flavour of how they've all come together to look at developing consistency across the piece, and learning from across Wales about what works and what doesn't. Thank you.

Ken.

Just in terms of discrimination, then, do young people and their families face direct or indirect discrimination, and what's the impact on their mental health?

I think the Education Tribunal for Wales is highlighting that they're seeing an increase in disability discrimination cases. In preparation for the meeting today, we did try to gather views from directors across Wales to assess whether that's an issue for them in particular. I think they feel that there are concerns, parental concerns, that do get raised with the local authorities about certain practices—for example, around reduced timetables, potentially, and exclusion of children, fixed-term exclusions or permanent exclusions of children with additional learning needs, and so on. And when those concerns come in, then, clearly, we have to work with our school settings to ensure that provision is appropriate and statutory obligations are met as part of that. So, I think the levels of concern will vary across Wales depending on local provision, but we've obviously got a very important role in ensuring that that does not happen, given the Equality Act and the need for all settings to comply with that, really.

Ken.

Thanks. Just finally from me, how consistent is the application of the new ALN framework across councils in Wales, and what has been the impact of it so far in terms of improving access to education?

Well, we're still in the middle of implementing it, if you like, and we've still got a way to go, and the implementation period was extended to take into account, obviously, the global pandemic, and it's not that things had slowed down, but we just needed more time to ensure that we did this properly. And the feedback from our practitioners was unanimous: 'You could move everybody on to the new system quickly if you wanted to, and we could easily do it within shorter timescales, or you could do it properly, and we would need more time to do it.' And what I mean by 'properly' is there is unequivocal support from our practitioners on the ground, saying that they prefer this new way of working, because the new way of working is person centred, so you put the child and the family in the middle and you make sure that they are involved in all aspects of decision making. Now, if you're going to do that properly, that needs time, and what they've discovered is that, in order to achieve clarity and agreement about what are the perceived needs of the child, what are the barriers to learning and how are we going to address them, doing it in a person-centred way works. So, that, without a doubt, has come back from all of our local authorities. In my role, I continue to be engaged in working with Welsh Government as the national additional learning needs implementation lead, and that is regularly the feedback that I have when I travel around Wales and question both ALNCOs and local authorities.

Now, you asked about consistency. We'd have to be honest and say that we are still in the process of establishing consistency, because we are still in the process of implementing it. As we implement it, new things become obvious and we need to address them. There are some things that have come out of the woodwork that we wouldn't have guessed, so that will add to not necessarily inconsistency, but more variables that we need to tackle, if you like. But I suppose it's the reassurance I feel, anyway, in that person-centred practice is very much preferred by practitioners, and also the feedback that we've received from parents. I know we've heard today that there are lots of parents that are still really, really concerned, and I don't doubt that at all. The only thing I would like to offer is that we also have a significant percentage of parents that are much more relieved, feel far more confident about being seen as an equal participant around the table. That's been a long time coming for our parents, and I think it's important to realise that is one of the fundamental principles of the Act, that they are equal in contributing to conversations and decision making. Sorry, I know it's long-winded, but we are in the process of trying to establish consistency and working at regional and national levels, because we have a national forum to come back and actually look at how do we develop or ensure consistency.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Ken. Questions, finally, from Laura. Laura Jones.

Thank you, Chair. My questions are about choice, which is an interesting word, really. How much choice do think there actually is for parents and children out there with additional learning needs, and do you recognise the picture that, because of lack of space in our special schools, we are now seeing an increase in mainstream schools of higher level needs of ALN? I think you touched on that earlier, Sharon, but I just wonder if you could elaborate on that. And then I wanted to ask you something about parental choice. You talk about school transport and that it's an LA's statutory obligation to provide that transport, but then, when parental choice is engaged, that statutory obligation goes. Now, Liz Jones, I love what you're saying today, that it should be child first and child centric, but it's not, really, is it, when the parents and the child have specific needs that can't be met locally, then when they choose a school that will meet those needs but it's not in the local area, the school transport is taken away from them and they have to then pay for their own. That's not really a good thing, is it, because you're taking away the child's need to be where they need to be. You're saying they should be locally, and if they can't, tough, they can't have the transport provided any more. That is a real problem across the board. Do you recognise that as a problem?

I think it comes back to, again, not doing a sweeping statement. I think you have to look at each case individually to see what—. Because, of course, parents have choices—

Well—.

—that would be the right thing. But it's also about what provision has been offered to them, for them to be guided on their choices, and I think that's the key thing: what support have the parents been given on those choices so that they can make the appropriate choice, the best choice for their learner. It's knowing what is out there, and then it's all about that support and that communication to the parents, then.

I'm interested in, particularly, your role, Sharon Davies and Catherine Davies. I just wonder if you could both come back on what you see your role as in making sure parents are provided with all the choices that they do have, and if they feel their needs are going to be met out of area then why they think that is and what other alternatives they can do. Are there support mechanisms in place that you think are sufficient for those parents to be guided to make those sorts of choices?

I think, when you look at—. Coming back to local authorities, you've got the family information service, which is a statutory obligation for each LA, and that extends from childcare all the way through. You also have your council's websites as well, which are full of information for parents on all services the councils offer, not just on education. There are also parent groups out there; there are various different forums out there as well. It is about signposting, and sometimes that can be overwhelming for a parent. It's knowing, 'Okay, I can search the internet until I'm blue in the face—it's knowing what's appropriate out there.' My advice—it is about getting in touch with the local authority. They are best placed to be able to know what provision is available and at what different stages for those families, having those conversations with the families to make the appropriate choices, because there are different services that local authorities can offer. So, it's about that co-ordinated support then so that parents can make—

Do you think that's effective? We had somebody who mentioned that it took them 10 clicks to find out information on a council's website before they were able to find any information. That's quite a lot, actually, to go through before you can find that information when you're probably quite stressed and have a lot of pressure on you. Do you think the services that you've mentioned are really effective?

I wouldn't be able to say, because I don't use them per se—

You think every different council's—

—and I would imagine it varies from LA to LA, because they all have their own digital teams, and therefore it would be—. Maybe that's something they collect through their community feedback; I wouldn't be able to say. But you would hope that it's presented in an easy fashion, a user-friendly fashion, for anybody—

Good practice isn't really fed back to other local authorities, really, in terms of, if somebody has got a good way of doing it, how does the other website, with 10 clicks—how do they find that good practice? How is that shared, really? How is that—? If somebody is doing it right, how do we tell other people? How effective is it at actually sharing that information?

I suppose it is about sharing best practice, but knowing which platform is the best way to share that practice. I would imagine that that would be through the digital network that LAs would have. You would hope that they would be sharing good practice.

It's just there's a lot of hope in there, isn't there, really?

Yes.

I suppose that we've all got an obligation, haven't we, to use the feedback that's provided and to improve what we do. In my experience, most local authorities would have a 'Starting School' booklet and all the relevant information about that would be in one place, you would hope. I don't know—

Nobody's really mentioned, I think, the 'Starting School'—

Because all the transport arrangements are detailed in there, and there is a requirement, isn't there, to make information accessible, transparent and clear so that parents are well informed about what their rights are, and that should be in every 'Starting School' booklet. Playgroups, childcare settings, they're all there to provide advice and guidance on the transport arrangements. But the statutory requirements are clear, aren't they, in relation to transport. It is to the nearest available school. If special educational provision needs to be made that's out of area, then transport, if criteria are met, is looked at and provided then.

I think, to pick up on your point around special schools and capacity, there are challenges. We've seen a significant growth. We're looking to open a new special school, actually. But there are statutory obligations on all local authorities to keep their specialist provision under review and to ensure that there is sufficient capacity to meet need. And that's—. There are financial constraints, of course.

Laura, we'll go back to you for a final question, because I realise we're going over time.

Thank you, Gaynor. Yes, well, 'complex', 'confusing', I think that's something we've all recognised from the evidence we've heard in and out of the Senedd Chamber today—Senedd building, sorry.

What are you doing in terms—particularly Catherine Davies and Sharon Davies; sorry to keep coming back to you—of being proactive in finding out whether all 22 local authorities are meeting a certain standard in terms of the information they're providing, whether it is clear, whether it is child friendly, whether it is family friendly, whether all the information is there? I've got a four-year-old and absolutely nothing was given to me, in case my child had specific needs, about where to go and what to do. So, it's not the same in every authority. Yours might be better than others, but it's not happening, basically, and that's the feedback we're getting back. So, in your role specifically, don't you think there's a real need to be proactive in terms of trying to get that all uniform, in a way, as much as possible?

It is, but—. I'm not sure whether it's uniform; it's about consistency of approaches, isn't it? And it's consistency in the information and how that information then is communicated to parents. And I think then that is where we have national and regional forums—they play a key part in sharing that good practice in sharing information, and that's why we do have, for example in education, ADEW, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales. That's just one example of how information challenges, issues—. It's a professional network and that's how then—. On a national basis, all 22 local authorities participate. But that's just one example. As Liz has mentioned, there are several—. There's an ALN forum, there are several—. There's an admissions group as a sub-group of ADEW, where issues, challenges and best practice are disseminated. So, it is shared. We're not enforcers; we're not an inspectorate body in any shape or form. All we can do is encourage and share the best practice. It is down to individual LAs whether they or how they then disseminate that information. But it's also about sharing—. It's overcoming; it's not just about sharing good practice. It's about, when challenges are presented maybe to a local authority, discussing those with other professional colleagues around. It's about problem solving, and there's more of that, unfortunately, going forward.

I would support what Sharon is saying in terms of professional networks. They are a really great forum for sharing best practice, where that exists. But also, picking up, Liz used to have a regional role in terms of ALN transformation and a really strong focus of that regional work was around information, advice and guidance for parents and ensuring that they were well informed. And there are certain requirements around that in terms of information for parents, and that needs to be accessible.

Okay, thank you. I realise we've run over time. As I said, there were lots of questions that Members had to put to you, and I don't know if there is an opportunity, perhaps, if we did have a few more, that we could write to you if that would be okay, just to get to some of the points that we weren't able to cover. But thank you very much for joining us, as I say, and thank you for staying a little bit over time as well. So, diolch yn fawr.

You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy as well in the coming weeks. But, yes, thank you for joining us. Diolch. We'll now take a very short break to bring the next witnesses in.

Okay. Welcome back. We're having our ninth evidence session for our inquiry: do disabled children and young people have equal access to childcare and education? I'd like to welcome Catherine Falcus, from the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru, a policy and leadership specialist. You're very welcome. Thank you for taking the time to join us today. We will be asking a number of questions of you, Catherine, so I'll make a start, and we'll start around the extent of the issue. To what extent are children's rights to an education being denied due to their additional needs? And, perhaps, whether their physical or learning disability, being neurodivergent or having additional learning needs—are there differences between these three wide groups of children and young people?

Okay. Obviously, I'm going to give a view that is a general view across the landscape and then some feedback from our members on what their perceptions are. So, I think first of all what I would say is that I think all school leaders would acknowledge that they would want to cater for the needs of all of their learners, regardless of their needs, and there wouldn't be any deliberate or conscious effort to deny this, but I think that they are faced increasingly with learners who have increasingly complex needs, and particularly in a large school setting, having to deal with all of those needs does present various challenges in overcoming them. So, that would be my general thing. Obviously, those include finances and resources, available staffing, training, et cetera, which I'm sure we'll get into more, later on in the discussion.

Absolutely. Thank you. To what extent are children and young people with additional needs able to access all areas of education, including extra-curricular activities? Do you think that school estates are fully accessible for learners? And do you have any ideas how these things could be improved?

Right. A big question. I mean, again, I think schools do a very good job in accommodating the needs of learners. In many cases, with members that I have spoken to and discussed this with, they make adaptations to the curriculum, obviously to differentiate teaching approaches, using available support—teaching assistants in class to offer one-to-one support in class, using specialist staff.

With respect to extra-curricular, there are some examples of really good practice going on. I was talking to a member the other day who has a disabled pupil and is also a rugby fan, and they have created a wheelchair rugby club for all pupils in collaboration with the local university, which offers a coach and provides wheelchairs, et cetera. So, that kind of practice is going on there. They're reliant on that partnership with the university to provide the resources, because obviously there is a lack of funding for that. With respect to—. I mean, that's just one example. Obviously, with extra-curricular activities, not all pupils want to engage in any case, but I think schools, where they can, will offer that out to all pupils.

I think, with regard to the school estate, I think that depends. Obviously, some of the newer build schools have better facilities. I know in some of the older schools, there are difficulties with accessibility to certain areas, and those have to be dealt with a little bit more creatively by schools, by re-rooming classes, and obviously then making adaptations as well. Again, it varies across the school environment.

Okay, thank you. Do schools have adequate policies to support school staff in treating all learners equally, and to what extent are children and their families aware of such policies?

In general, schools do have policies. They would have their equal opportunities policies, and the expectation is that they are published. In terms of how aware parents are and how transparently published they are, I think it varies, and I wouldn't make any pretense of this. I think that schools do communicate well with pupils with specific needs and do work well, from my experience and the feedback that I've had from parents and from the learners themselves, so those channels of communication are very good, but that's my perspective from the evidence that I've got.

Okay. Just following on from that, to what extent do schools consult with learners and their families on their accessibility plans?

Again, talking from my general experience, the channels of communication between individuals would be very good, very open, and would be revisited and reviewed regularly. In terms of, more generally, accessibility plans, I think there is more variance across schools in terms of their obligation to actually produce that and publish it. I think it's something that will evolve more as we embrace the new Act and deal with that sort of transformation and the getting to grips with the new policy more and more, as it embeds more and more.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Well, I think it's fair to say that at the top of the list is the available funding. We are in, particularly, a time of austerity, and across the piece with education, funding is an issue, and obviously, then, this has a knock-on effect on our learners with ALN. The availability of staff. I know that, talking to a headteacher recently, working in primary, they use their funding very efficiently. They've got things like sensory facilities, they've got a sensory garden for their neurodivergent pupils, so there's evidence there that they're using their funding appropriately to enhance the environment, to make it appropriate, but what they say frustrates them is that sometimes they wait a long time for diagnosis and for specialist provision, and that is obviously a barrier to expediting what they need to meet the learners' needs.

I've just touched on school buildings and that some of the school buildings are quite old, and, although they have adaptations, things like corridors and staircases make moving around buildings inaccessible. I think, sometimes, staff training: obviously, in a large school, where you've got different pupils with different needs, some of the needs are quite specific, so ensuring that you have appropriate training for a wide body of staff—because the learners may encounter a number of teachers and other staff during the day—and making sure that that is communicated efficiently is a barrier and needs to be managed well and managed carefully.

And, just as I've already mentioned, the range of needs that has to be catered for, and keeping those channels of communication and regular review. And, of course, still, at the moment, using two systems—the special educational needs and the ALN are still sort of working in parallel. And I know that the SEN is phasing out now, but that and embracing the reform has obviously been massive, and has taken time to embed and for people to become familiar and work their way around. And the extra time and workload that that has actually presented has caused challenges. 

So, obviously, there is a raft of things that are a challenge, but schools work very hard, and our members work very hard, to try to overcome these as best they can. 

It's obviously a collective responsibility. An ideal answer is with the learner, with the parents, with the school, with the local authority, with whatever external agencies. It's really, really important that everybody does work in collaboration. To actually sort of point a finger and say 'the buck stops', it's difficult. Schools do rely on local authorities, on Welsh Government, for funding, so if you wanted to point a finger there. Then, obviously, they rely on other agencies for expertise, so, again, if you wanted to point a finger there.

But I think it's very much a collaborative thing, working with the individuals themselves, and making sure that the needs are fully understood, and that there is an understanding from the learners, with the parents, right across the piece, really.

I don't have a specific example of where that has happened. I know of members where learners with complex needs, particularly at points of transition between primary and secondary, where they have named a school and it's been very challenging for the school to accommodate the pupil. And not because they don't want to, but because of their ability to meet the complex needs within the timescale, and to be able to provide the adaptations that are necessary. So, I think it's fair to say that, in my experience, it's unlikely that one of our members would deny admission to a pupil, but I think, by negotiation with the parents and actually looking at what is best, then sometimes an initial choice has changed, and I think that is just where we are in terms of the resources that are available and the timeliness of them, and the cost and how we can actually make things happen for the young person, for the best for their education.

That is a really good question and, I think, in terms of education at the moment, with reforms—not just with ALN but with curriculum—what schools are faced with is massive, and I agree that the training and the most appropriate training are really important. I've mentioned already the complex needs and the range of needs that may present within a school environment, particularly a big school. If I'm honest, I don't know what the answer is. Obviously, specialist training is the best. Obviously, that can be provided, often most efficiently, by external agencies. I know that there is training out there, and I know of instances where schools have sourced their own trainers to come in and offer bespoke training for the needs of particular individuals within their school. I know that there is training within IT, but that's within the raft of training for education generally. So, at risk of talking around the question, there is no perfect solution within the resources that we have, but I think it's a multi-agency approach that really is best suited, because sometimes the training that can be offered within school can be very, very bespoke to a particular learner, whereas sometimes more generic training is required, depending on the need. So, I don’t know if that addresses your question.

It does. Diolch.

Diolch. A question now from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. We've heard and heard through evidence that children with additional needs suffer bullying while at school. So, I'm interested to what extent you think that happens while those children are at school. And do you think the support and intervention that schools have is adequate? And do you think it addresses the problem when it arises within our school environments?

If I'm honest, it's not something that's been brought to my attention from members as a particular issue. Obviously, bullying is always key. Schools are obliged to have policies and processes in place to deal with bullying. I know that a lot of schools do a lot of work, particularly within Curriculum for Wales and around the health and well-being area, in terms of developing that inclusive environment within schools and actually consciously broadening young people's understanding of additional learning needs and disabilities, and valuing and respecting young people. So, I'm not saying that there aren't incidences of bullying; it's not, from the information that I have from our members, something that has been a particular concern, but that it would come as part of the whole-school bullying processes and procedures.

Okay, thank you. If you do get any examples from members, it'd be really useful to feed that back through to the committee.

I just want to go somewhere different now, into school transport. We've heard that there is an issue for learners with additional learning needs and additional needs with school transport. So, how do you feel that school transport affects their ability to access all areas of education, including those extra-curricular activities that other pupils can access quite regularly? We are finding that pupils with these additional needs can't access the transport to get them there and from there, so it would be interesting to hear your views on that.

Yes. I mean, I don't have any specific evidence of issues with transport. I do have one or two anecdotes of where pupils with additional learning needs and additional disabilities have been included in things, and so, therefore, the transport has been provided for them by the school. But I'm afraid I can't give you much evidence with respect to that question, because it's not something that's really been raised by our members, unfortunately.

Okay. That's fine. My final question, Cadeirydd, is around funding. We're all aware of the pressures that local authorities are under in terms of funding, and that obviously equates down into our schools as well, and the pressures that they are under. But with that all-inclusive learning environment and making sure that pupils with additional needs are supported as well, when we ask questions on this in the Chamber, the Minister for education here will say that money is available for anybody suffering with an additional need in a school, and that money should be made available to them. When we speak to school leaders and local authorities, they tell us that the money isn't coming through from Government and that resources are very sparse and they can't get that money. So, somebody somewhere is being economical with the truth, or money is being held somewhere and not actually being passported. So, I'd like to get your views on that, of where you think this money is being held, if it's going anywhere, and actually not reaching the pupils who need it. Because if we are going to create those inclusive learning environments for everybody, and support our teachers and our school staff, the money has to be there to do that, so I'd be grateful to get your views and opinions on that. And that's my final question. Thank you.

Yes. I don't think I can answer your question in total. I think the money that goes in to schools—in my experience and to my knowledge, from members and my own experience in school—is actually used wisely and it's used appropriately. I think that a message that has come through is that there is a lack of transparency in how the funding is allocated to schools. So, how that is translated from the grant funding, via Welsh Government, and then via the LEAs and in to schools and the consortia, et cetera. So, I think my answer would be that what is required is more transparency of where that funding, or how that funding, is actually allocated and how it's allocated equitably to different schools.

Diolch. Thank you, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Questions now from Ken Skates. Oh, you're—

Just some questions—. Oh, sorry. Can you hear me now?

It's okay now. Yes.

I can, yes.

Apologies. Thanks, Chair. I'm going to ask some questions about impact, if I may, beginning with your views on the impact of discrimination, due to disability, on the child or young person's mental health and well-being.

Yes. Okay. I mean, I think I sort of covered it in terms of that schools work very, very hard to make the environment inclusive. I know there are, nevertheless—. Young people are very, very self-aware, and I know an example from a member that I was talking to recently, about a young person who has a disability and was becoming quite frustrated, and quite down about this, and worried about his future and being able to integrate, and have a personal life, shall we say? The school worked very hard to actually source an appropriate mentor and a role model to actually deal with that. So, those are the kinds of things that are going on in schools, to try and break down those barriers that can impact on well-being. We're still in that post-COVID era, and I think some young people, whether with ALN or not, are still struggling with the return to school, albeit that we've been back for quite a while, but the anxieties that have been surrounding that. And I think that is something that schools are aware of and are trying to tackle. So, I don't know if I'm answering your question, or if you wanted to rephrase.

So, what sort of impact do you think it has on educational outcomes?

In terms of outcomes, things like, obviously, if young people are not attending school—whether it's through anxiety, or whatever—then that's going to impact on their outcomes. In school, if it manifests itself in behaviours that prevent them from learning and form barriers to them learning, then obviously that could actually impact on outcomes. But as I say, I think schools are working very hard to try and do what they can to overcome that, but I think it's partly—. COVID has had an impact, and has perhaps enhanced that impact, so I think it's something that is an additional consideration.

We've also heard that children with additional learning needs are disproportionately excluded from schools. What are the most common reasons for this, and what more can be done, and by whom, to reduce instances of formal and informal exclusions?

I think schools, again, work hard to minimise the number of exclusions. I think, unfortunately, where exclusions do happen—. And I know, talking to a head recently about exclusion, what he is experiencing is that, rather than it being pupils within ALN categories as such, it's often those pupils who have those more emotional and behavioural difficulties that, they're finding, are excluded more—so, those who would traditionally, perhaps, be on school action, et cetera, rather than ALN. But I do think, sometimes, that where behaviours, you know, where there are examples of where schools would benefit from more training in terms of particular behaviours, or adaptations to curriculum, those are the things that potentially could cause exclusions to happen, and they could be prevented by more training.

I think it's encouraging to see that Welsh Government have announced this week that they're reviewing the exclusion policy, and looking at the exclusion guidance. So, that will be interesting to see. I think the first publication of that is later this year, isn't it? And alongside that, there will be more behaviour guidance. So, I think that will be helpful for schools. But, obviously, with guidance that comes from Welsh Government, then that has to be taken on board, it has to be assimilated by schools and into their practice, and that takes time. But it is encouraging to see that Welsh Government are recognising that, and actually supporting. But I think, again, it's actually schools having the available resources to deal with it—it's wrapped up in that broader issue.

Okay. Thanks. We've been hearing that, in terms of the ALN reforms, they're not being implemented consistently across Wales. Is that your view, and are you able to give an indication of whether those reforms are having a positive or negative impact on learners? 

Obviously, the reforms are extensive, they're huge. Alongside the other reforms of curriculum in education, in my 30-odd years in education it's probably the biggest period of reform that there has been. That in itself is an issue, because it takes time to assimilate the information and to understand it. I think from feedback that I've had, there has been inconsistency and variance in terms of the support that's been on hand, and the way in which consortia have facilitated, perhaps, collaborative working, which obviously enables people to work together to understand. Sorry, can you just repeat the question? I think I'm going a bit off point. 

No, that's quite all right. It's just about the consistency of ALN reform implementation across Wales—whether you would agree that those reforms are not being implemented consistently, and whether you think there are clear indications of positive or negative impact of the reforms. Or is it too early?

I think what's emerging from members is that there are positive impacts, but—and we've discussed barriers—the barriers are there. I think it's still—. To use the words 'early days' sounds very superficial, but a transformation of that scale takes a long time to embed, and we're still in that transition phase at the moment. I think where you have got different organisations, different bodies facilitating training, et cetera, there is going to be variance, and I think that is always a danger where there is central guidance, central policy, but the way that that is translated may be slightly different. And the timescales that people are operating in are different because of, potentially, a variance in the available resource. Does that answer your question? 

Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks, Chair. 

Thanks, Ken. Finally, some questions from Laura Jones. 

Thank you. I'd just like to ask you about parental choice. To what extent are parents and children given adequate, accessible information about their choices in education? And how well do you think schools engage with parents of children with additional needs to help the school support the learner? Thanks. 

My experience from members and my own experience is that that communication between the learner and the parents is good, it's quite effective, that there are regular communications. In the best practice and a lot of the instances that I'm aware of, a lot of time is spent with the young person actually ensuring that they negotiate, they make the best choices for them in their education, and that the barriers to those choices are minimised. I think, again, the schools do their very best to accommodate all pupils and to accommodate those pupils who have specific needs. There are instances where I know members have looked beyond their own school to look at provision that may enhance what can be offered in school. I know in Cardiff there's an agency called Vision 21, historically. But to look at provision that is more bespoke, look at courses that are more bespoke for those working in young groups. So, I think where the resources are available, schools are very embracing of looking for alternative solutions that actually will produce the best outcomes for the learners. 

Thank you. The picture that we've been getting from the evidence that has come to light for us is that the majority have said that the information provided is complex, confusing, non-existent, so it's a completely different picture to what you've just outlined, which is interesting. Would you think that that, in part, is down to the fact that there are 22 local authorities interpreting how to do it and doing it in a different way, basically? We see every school has a different way of reaching out to parents as well in terms of the educational booklets they might provide, or don't provide at all. There doesn't seem to be any consistency. Would you recognise that?

No. That's the very short answer. I am surprised, in a way, to hear that, or maybe perhaps I'm a little bit naive about that, and that is very interesting. It's something I shall go away and perhaps do a bit of investigation around. But I think that's really all I can say, because I think that evidence conflicts with my general understanding, talking to members, and from my own experience. 

Okay. As a parent, that's something I certainly recognise myself, and I would concur with the evidence that I've received as opposed to what you've said. So perhaps it would be worth pursuing, for sure.

In terms of school admissions, to what extent are families and learners able to access their chosen provision, or do you think this is predicated by the accessibility of the premises or the resources in that particular school?

I probably have touched on this in a previous answer, but obviously pupils have the right to request a school. I think my experience is that that becomes a joint process between the parent, the learner and the school. However, that might not be the case in all cases. Once a preference has been stated, the parent could work with the school to actually see what the school can provide, to make sure that it is the best possible environment.

I think there are going to be issues that I've already discussed in terms of the physical make-up of a school building, in terms of the barriers that that presents in terms of accessibility, and then it all goes back to the issue of funding that I've talked about, and then having the available resources and teachers or people with the right experience and the right training to be able to accommodate those learners. 

I don't think, to my knowledge, any of my members would turn round and point-blank say 'no', but obviously there would be issues that would need to be discussed and potentially overcome in a timely way to make the education the best it possibly could be for the young person.

Thank you. To what extent are children and young people able to access specialist education provision at a specialist school or resource base without delay and in their own community?

My evidence suggests that this varies depending on where it is, that it can sometimes be more timely than others. It depends on the type of provision that is required. It isn't always readily available and there can be delays due to a lack of resources. 

Are there any particular issues that you've come across with families with children with additional learning needs who wish to access Welsh-medium education, particularly in the secondary sector? 

It's not anything that I have come across in my experience that a member has actually raised. I can't say that it hasn't happened, but in my experience, I can't provide any information, unfortunately, on that. 

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Brilliant, thank you. And that's the end of our evidence session today. Sorry we've gone over a little bit on time here, but diolch yn fawr—thank you for joining us. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in due course. Once again, thank you for your time today.

No problem at all. Thank you very much. 

We'll now break for a couple of minutes just to bring our next witnesses in. We'll go into private session.

Croeso nôl. Welcome back. We have our tenth evidence session on our inquiry with our panel this morning. Thank you very much for joining us. We have Mary van den Heuvel, senior policy officer Wales for the National Education Union. We have Mike O’Neill, NEU organising forum member and NEU representative for Merthyr. We have Ioan Rhys Jones, general secretary for Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru; and Urtha Felda, policy and casework official for the NASUWT. Thank you very much, again, for joining us. We do appreciate your time today.

Members have a number of questions to put you, so we'll go straight into those. I'll start with a general question around the extent of the issue. To what extent are children and young people with additional needs able to access all areas of education, including extra-curricular activities? Do you think the school estate is fully accessible for learners? Do you have any ideas about how to improve that? So, a big general question to start with. I don't know who'd like to start. Urtha.

That's a huge general question, but it does start the conversation, doesn't it? I think, in terms of inclusion, we have to look at the different ways that children with different learning needs can be excluded, and that can be because they don't have a full individual development plan; they don't have the staff to support them. It can be that they've not been assessed, that they haven't got specialist staff from health to support them. And it can be that the situation gets to be so difficult, they choose not to attend because depression, sadness, et cetera, can make it hard to be in school. But also, they could not be in school six hours a day, because they've got appointments or—. So, there are lots of different ways that children can be excluded. The ultimate thing is, actually, exclusion. Children have reported to ALNCOs—they use the word 'unfair', because they feel not included in activities and not included in trips. So, the extent is—. We don't have statistics on it, which is a real problem, but we can describe those different situations that happen, which fall largely, at the end of the day, on the fact that there is not enough staff to fulfil the IDPs that are written. The IDPs, when they are written, they often come back with less funding than asked for. But, at the end of the day, there is not the hours in the school to give the children support, whether that's support to access education that day, in that lesson, or access a quiet room to take their medication or access school trips. At the moment, we just do not have enough staff and, of course, a lot of that goes down to funding, at the end of the day. So, I could go on and say more, but I'll obviously give space to my colleagues sat here as well. Thank you.

I think we'll come on to some detailed questions as well. So, Mike.

Yes. Thanks. On the point around the IDP writing process, many members are explaining to us just the sheer length of time that it takes to actually complete an IDP—up to seven hours in some cases that we've heard. And also, the people, the experts that are completing those IDPs, are then spending time on paperwork rather than on the interventions that they're best placed to be offering. So, the actual paperwork exercise is really onerous for many of our members.

Okay, thank you. And just to say, you don't have to press any buttons on the microphones; they'll be fine. Ioan, did you want to come in?

Absolutely. I'll just bring Mary in and then we'll move on.

Thank you, Chair. I firstly want to declare an interest as a member of the Wales committee for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, for the record.

From a National Education Union perspective, I think the thing that I really want to get across this morning is that recruitment and retention of our additional learning needs co-ordinators is really important, and that there's access to training for those ALN co-ordinators who need it, in terms of specialist training to complete IDPs. We think about recruitment and retention, and we think about training for universal provision, but we need—. Nobody enters that kind of role unless they're really, really keen on supporting disabled children and young people, children with additional learning needs. And I think there's that passion there, and I think it's really important that we capture that, but say that they need help and support, and that the system is crying out for change at the moment.

Thank you, Mary. We'll move on to questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr. I think that it's really important to understand two aspects of it, because there's children's experience every day, which might be large halls, long ways to walk, can't get a lift—so, there all those kinds of general experiences every day—and of course, there's a massive amount of work that needs to be done on that, as well as in relation to other pupils' attitudes around being in school with children with different abilities—a massive amount of work to be done on that. So, all of those things can lead to children feeling excluded.

But there are specifically system issues in relation to the new ALN proposals, and I think there's a strong difference in who is in the category of ALN and who isn't. Who is placed on universal provision is creating a huge impact in school. And basically, there is no funding to support that. Ioan has already mentioned the need for training, but teachers in a classroom, who have a class of 30 children and, I don't know, maybe five of them have got additional learning needs, they don't have an extra teaching assistant in that classroom, and they are required to understand the pedagogical needs of each child in that classroom. Resources for each specific condition need to be prepared, and the teacher needs to be trained to use them. So, these are really specific things. They've still got 30 children in that class. So, I think, looking at the system issues around what is or is not available, it is a real holistic thing that needs looking at. But equally, something as small as—it reflects on staff numbers again—reducing class sizes could be a thing that would enable a teacher maybe to work with 20 or 22 children, some of whom have got ALN needs, and they would have a bit more space.

But one of the things about training, the feedback that we're getting from ALNCOs is that it's not specific enough. There are so many different conditions, teachers need specific advice, specific support, specific resources. And one of the recommendations from an ALNCO has come forward that, really, each school needs to have access to a specialist educational psychologist, to speech and language therapy, et cetera, so that occupational therapists have a responsibility for certain schools in their areas, and there is easy accessibility there.

Again, there is lots more I could say, but I will pause there, in favour of making space for my colleagues.

Thank you. I'm glad you paused there, because you were literally coming on to the things that I was going to mention. But the point around access to specialist services is really key. You will all be familiar with the wait for things like child and adolescent mental health services; I don't think that's going to be knowledge to anybody. But there's also speech and language therapy, behaviour support, support for English as an additional language.

You may or may not be aware of various petitions and surveys and so on from parent groups, that talk around feeling the need for elective home education because they feel that their son or daughter's disability perhaps hasn't been catered for. And none of those things, I don't feel that those reflect on teachers; I feel that they're actually saying that the system isn't quite where it needs to be, and they feel a desperation, really. I've spoken to parents who have said to me, 'Mike, I have no choice but to do this myself.' They don't want to, but they feel they need to. We believe a qualified professional should be in front of every young person. You certainly shouldn't be making that choice as a parent out of desperation. If you make it for different reasons, that's a different debate, but on an education issue because you feel the service isn't there, that's quite worrying, and as a society I think we really should look at that.

On the point around catering for physical disabilities, there's been a number of, obviously, new builds—the twenty-first century schools programme—and that's to be commended. We've had two or three in my own local authority. But that's relatively more straightforward to cater for. Actually, many of the demands on services are around invisible disabilities, hidden disabilities that are far harder to identify.

I'll bring Mary in.

Thanks, Chair. I think from a system point of view, Heledd, there are a lot of issues that are implicit within the ALN system that are causing some of the issues that we've highlighted today. So, implicitly, the ALNCO, on behalf of the school, has a duty to make a decision about whether a child has additional learning needs and what their additional learning provision should be. Regardless of whether they've got the access to all the information from health, local authorities and specialist services, they have a duty to make that decision anyway. So, that's something that we could consider in terms of independent assessment arrangements, which could be something that could be looked at, because, actually, at the moment, that's not really working. And we've also seen a drop-off in the number of children and young people who've been identified as having an additional learning need when we've moved from the old system to the new system. So, within that, ALNCOs tell us that they've been encouraged not to identify those children particularly with—I'm going to get the acronym wrong, Mike—

School action and school action plus.

School action and school action plus children have not necessarily been identified as having an additional learning need, and needing an IDP. And whilst—

Sorry. Can I just stop you? Who's encouraging them not to? Is that coming from headteachers because of resources, or local authorities?

So, ALNCOs have said to us that that's part of the system and identification in terms of the transitional leads, that the definition has changed slightly. And so, in encouraging children who were previously identified as school action or school action plus to not necessarily have an additional learning need, that's great, isn't it? If the system works, it could work really well. If we had all the money, all the teachers, all the resources and all the access to specialist services, and everyone had been trained in universal provision, that could be a really positive approach, but we're not in that situation. And so, if we haven't got access to all of those things, we need to ensure that those children are still captured.

So, basically, if we aren't catching those children at all through the IDP process because they're not meeting that threshold for having an additional learning need, they're still in the system, but the system doesn't recognise them as having any needs at all. So, do we get to the end of school and wonder why there's an increased number of children who aren't potentially doing so well? Do we have an increased number of children who, as Mike said, are choosing elective home education because the system's not recognising them? We've got issues in terms of attendance and behaviour, and members tell us that those are partly because of unmet needs. And so, you can't meet all of the needs if you haven't got the funding and the training to do so, and the support in place. So, I just want to get that across.

Thanks, Mary. I'll bring James in.

I'm just interested—. We've heard evidence this morning from senior leadership in local authorities and wider that the system's working fine. But what I tend to find is when I go and speak to headteachers directly, their professional opinions and ALN co-ordinators' professional opinions are not being taken into account by the local education departments in county halls, for example. They're saying, 'No, no, there's nothing wrong with this child; you just need to manage it within your current budget within the existing frameworks that you have in school.' Is that something that you're experiencing with your members, because that’s something that I’m getting, and, from evidence this morning, we see that some people just seem to think, 'Listen, there's not a problem'? 

So, there are some systemic issues with the way in which the legislation works that mean that a local authority can pass a decision back to the school and say, 'Actually, no—get on with it', and, of course, schools aren't subject to tribunals, but local authorities are. So, in order to challenge those decisions, it would rely on somebody taking the local authority to tribunal, and that's obviously quite an adversarial system that I don't think anybody with a disabled child, or a school—. That’s extra effort and energy, and if you’re looking after a disabled child, it's going to be a challenge already, probably, for many people. So, it’s implicit in the system.

I think we'll find there are problems where ALNCOs and maybe headteachers can voice their views and their experience. So, for example, we recently, as unions, were invited to speak at the all-Wales national ALN steering group, and we learned about lots of plans through being in attendance at the meeting, plans that would affect ALNCOs, but ALNCOs were not involved. So, there were future co-ordinations going on between local authorities and the new designated education clinical lead officers, but ALNCOs were not involved in that, which obviously—. Why isn't that happening? I raised that question and somebody said they would get back to me. I haven’t heard from anybody.

And it’s the same when the local authorities meet with the DECLOs in their own territory. Again, the ALNCOs are not involved, there’s no information going out to the ALNCOs about what is happening, so in terms of where there’s space for the voice of ALNCOs, I think it’s quite short. I remember meeting an ALNCO in the north who was telling me that, although she went to these cluster groups and she voiced her issues with the software system that calculated the hours needed for a teaching assistant, the payment didn’t come through until after the need had taken place. But she just was not taken notice of, and that is the information I’m getting back about where can ALNCOs voice—. Obviously, that’s why they come to us. And again, to reiterate, it’s not that staff on the ground don’t see the value in this, because obviously every child that needs an individual development plan—having one—is really, really important, but the fact that this universal group, as I think we’ve all referred to, don't have any support, no funding attached to them, creates a huge barrier and quite a lot of emotional stress for teachers. So, one solution that one ALNCO suggested was that that group on universal provision should have short-term IDPs to actually identify what their needs are, get those services in place, identify the funding, the cost and the physical bodies needed to actually provide that. But without that—. Remember also, for example, that dyslexia and dyspraxia support from local authorities has been closed down, so that kind of in-school practical support from specialists has also gone. But, I don’t think they’re heard, to be honest.

I'll bring Ioan in here.

The structural issues have been well thought out here, but I’d like to go back to a theme that I’m sure you’ve heard many, many times before, which is the inconsistency we’re seeing from school to school, from authority to authority. It’s just not good enough. Now, I’m aware that we’re in the implementation stage, but we’re in a situation where families and children feel as though they’re not being listened to, that they’re not a part of the pathway. Moving forward, teachers have only got so much capacity, and one does have to question the direction of local authorities in this case—going back to your question—and in a general manner, perhaps, we need to look at what specialised services there are. It’s inconsistent, as I say, from authority to authority, from school to school. There is a lack of expertise there. I said I’d be returning to this theme again. I was in discussions with a member in a Welsh-medium school in the east—let’s just put it like that—and obviously a major concern of mine, and a major concern of yours as well, I’m sure, is that there was no support at all as far as the speech and language service was concerned, and the ed-psych, senses, ADHD, ASD—no support at all in Welsh, and then you’ve got a situation where parents are asking, ‘Where are we going from here? Why can’t the authorities provide this service?’ Various points have been made previously to this committee that people have chosen to send their children to English-medium education because they can't cope with an additional language. I think that's absolute rubbish as far as pedagogy is concerned, but what we don't have is the consistent services available to all. And if the local authorities can't provide that, then we need to look at another model.

James Evans.

We've heard through evidence that children with additional needs are experiencing bullying in schools. Do you think schools have got enough support and the advice given to them to actually support those pupils who are being bullied in our schools who have additional needs? I'm just interested in your views on that and whether that's what you've been fed back from members.

Urtha.

I think what I'm hearing is that people are not using the word 'bullying' regularly in relation to the experiences that ALN children go through. It's almost, in a way, [correction: It's almost that the pupils say,] 'Well, you know, what can you expect? Of course you'd expect to be left out or to be ignored, or perhaps somebody is going to snigger behind you or you might get blamed because this group isn't receiving a certificate for 100 per cent attendance.' So, they don't use the word 'bullying', but they do describe those experiences that make children living with ALN experience sadness, experience depression, experience low energy, need to continue to self-isolate and, perhaps, increasingly use social media as a way of having some sort of contact with the outside world. So, from the teachers that I have spoken with, those are the responses that come back. So, from that comes an understanding, I feel, that, in terms of classroom management, it's too big. If there is responsibility for universal provision, as I've said before, we need to be looking at smaller classes. So, there is a need for a different class management, but there's definitely a need to look at pupil awareness and understanding how you live with different people, different people have got different needs, different people have got different cultures, et cetera, et cetera. So, often, for the teachers I've spoken to, it's not named as bullying; it is bullying, but maybe because it's not named, those kind of bullying strategies don't kick in. Thank you.

Thank you.

I was just going to say that NEU has a range of resources for accessibility in terms of disabled children in the classroom and countering any ableist approaches, so I'm happy to share those with the committee.

Thank you. Mike, did you want to come in?

Yes, please. Thank you. I think it's a really good question, actually, but I would approach it from a slightly different angle in the sense that, for me, I think some of the bullying behaviour is a symptom of behaviour that challenges and the rise in behaviour that challenges that we're seeing. So, that's not to excuse any bullying, but I think there's more of an underlying issue here around young people's understanding of appropriate behaviour post COVID. I think much was lost in terms of the socialisation skills, if you like, that perhaps they missed out on. So, for me, it's more or less a symptom, then, if you like, of a greater challenge that we face as a society, and schools are very much a microcosm of society. So, I think really, for me, this says that more resources are needed within school in order to cater for people that exhibit behaviour that challenges and inappropriate conduct, et cetera. That's telling us that there is something in the system that needs improving and needs tackling.

James.

One area that I think was touched on earlier was extra-curricular activities, as well. What we're seeing and hearing is that school transport is sometimes a barrier for pupils who have got a disability, a learning disability or are neurodivergent in actually accessing those extra-curricular activities. So, I'd just like to know what your views are a bit further perhaps on that, and what you think we could actually do to try and address some of these issues as well.

Ioan.

And all the others.

I think extra-curricular activities are even more of a problem than school transport. And, obviously, as far as those are out-of-school hours, it becomes the responsibility of the school, and providing that service is an issue. Generally, there are issues, of course, but I think what we're receiving from our members is that door-to-door-to-school is not that much of a problem, but trying to be inclusive in other ways becomes a further problem. Obviously, there are extra-curricular activities that are geared towards those with additional learning needs, and they can be very, very successful. However, it's not necessarily an inclusive picture in that respect.

Urtha.

I would just add that the issues are worse in rural areas. I'm sure that you'll be aware of that. And then the other side of that is: how do you find out what is available? If it's not on school premises, where do you go? How do you find out? And remembering, again, that sometimes, for example, with neurodiverse children, their family may also be neurodiverse, so there are all those issues of accessing information, knowing where to go and knowing what the rules are and how you navigate all that information. That is a barrier—the information barrier.

Absolutely. Mary.

Of course there are barriers and it's looking at what the responsibility of the school is. But there are also barriers—. We do know that, in terms of disabled children, accessing the right support and benefits more widely is obviously going to be an issue too—so, you know, the support for those through things like disability living allowance or personal independence payments. It's really important to look at the situation in the round, and we know that disabled families are more likely to be on a low income, and some of that will be because they have got a disabled child, and having a disabled person in the family obviously costs more money. So, it's quite a round picture, but it's problematic on many levels. And yes, of course, we know that schools are trying really hard to make as much as possible accessible, but I wouldn't want to say that it's a truly child-centred approach that we've got at the moment, because the funding isn't there.

Thanks, Mary. James.

Actually, on funding, that leads me on to my final question. I raised it in the previous session when taking evidence. When we ask questions on delivery of the Act and making schools inclusive and making sure that people with an ALN or a disability get additional funding, the Minister always tells us that funding is available and that there should be no problems with schools accessing levels of funding. The Minister has said that on the record plenty of times. I go around then and talk to schools and schools say that the money isn't coming from the local authorities to the schools when they ask for it for that support, and then I go to local authorities and they say, 'Oh, we haven't got any money, it's not coming from the Welsh Government.' But if the Minister's saying that there's money available and that it shouldn't be a problem, and the local authorities and schools are saying that they're not getting money from Government, someone's being economical with the truth somewhere about how money is coming through. So, I'd like to know your views on where you think, if there is money coming, it is getting stuck, or if there is actually any money coming at all from Government, or if it's all just warm words from the Minister around delivery of these aims that they've got.

Let's start with Urtha.

I've also heard the Minister say that there are enough staff in education to provide both the Curriculum for Wales and ALN. There are huge issues with funding. Really strongly, and I can't emphasise this enough, to begin with, the ALN future was not assessed. If I write a project bid to the Welsh Government, I have to write what I'm delivering, how many staff hours I need, how many staff I need and how much that is going to cost. So, none of that happened and, as far as I know, that still hasn't happened. And without actually looking at all the needs—the individual development plan needs and the ALN needs as well as the universal needs, teacher training and all the rest of it—how do we know that the funding that has been made available will cover all those staff hours? And staff hours are crucial in this. So, I think that's really, really important to understand—that we haven't got a calculation on that.

The second thing is that (1) local authorities won't share their funding formulas, and (2) we know that they're different across the regions. So, if you've got the power, James, to ask the local authorities to share their funding formulas and let us all know, that could really help answer some questions, to be honest with you.

I'm sure we could write as a committee to the local authorities.

Thank you.

We could. That's a good suggestion. Ioan, you wanted to come in.

This goes to the heart of the biggest problem in education, perhaps, which is the funding fog that's there generally—you know, the middle tier, and there's a governmental review into the middle tier. But, what we're seeing is that it isn't clear; we have to go and ask 22 different authorities what exactly is going on. I don't need to go into any more specifics than that, really. It is very frustrating. It's frustrating as far as teachers' pay is concerned as well. So, we need to look at a different model, and I keep coming back to that theme, but we have not got any clarity as far as where that funding goes, and if there is funding—sufficient funding—in place, what we do know is that, in the schools, it's not sufficient.

James, do you want to come in?

No, I'm finished. I'll be honest with you, I just want to thank you, because that's what I'm hearing and what I heard earlier in evidence was that everything's fine—from educational leaders, perhaps. So, it's good to hear you say that. Thank you.

Thanks, James. Questions now from Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. I'm going to ask a few questions about impact, if I may, beginning with what you view the impact being of discrimination due to disability on a young person's mental health and well-being.

That is also a big question. So, the first thing I would say is that in school at the moment we don't have a way to measure that. There isn't a tool that's universally applied to measure the impact on a pupil's mental health and well-being, because there are other children, obviously. We know that schools' funding has not been able to cover programmes they previously ran, for example, Thrive. We do know, obviously, from different education psychology reports that come through, about the descriptions of impact, and it definitely relates to a failure to achieve full potential. It can lead to huge isolation, increased difficulties in communication. The worst case scenario is it can lead to things like homelessness in adult life and things like involvement in the criminal justice system. So, there can be a huge impact, but actually we don't have any measurements on how would we count that to in any way help any future planning. So, that is a problem at the moment. Thank you.

Mary.

I was just going to add that, in order to know for the future the impact of that, I think it's really important that we are capturing all of those children who, if they haven't been identified as having an additional learning need now, could potentially have an additional learning need without extra support. So, what I mean is your school action, school action plus children again: how are we capturing those children and making sure that that cohort is not potentially over-represented within the group of children who are having to access, or can't access, support from CAMHS et cetera?

Okay. Mike.

Thank you. Sorry to come back to behaviour, again, but I run alternative provision, hence why it's a little bit of a hobby-horse. For me, often, the behaviour is the physical demonstration, really, of an unmet need, and you'll have heard those sorts of phrases before, but I think they're absolutely true. The rise in the need for EOTAS provision—educated other than at school—I don't think we've seen a busier time in this sector, probably ever. Many of our pupil referral units are full. There's a significant number that are in difficulty in terms of Estyn. Local authorities and schools are struggling to find alternative pathways and alternative options for young people. Many local authorities talk about, and our members within the schools in the authorities talk about, things like the old 14-19 pathways and these sorts of things finishing. What we would have termed years ago as the slightly more technical options, if you like, are now not there. So, I think that's evidence of impact as well, because we don't have the alternative options in as good a quality or as good a number as we might have had in the past.

Ken.

Yes. Thank you. We've heard that children with additional learning needs are disproportionately excluded from schools. Can you give your view on the reasons for this and what more can be done by whom to reduce both formal and informal exclusions?

Who'd start? Mike.

That's, again, a really good question, and 'How long have you got?', probably, is the answer, I would expect. It probably is fair to say that those with a disability are disproportionately affected, yes, but, again, coming back to a lack of funding in school, a lack of training for staff, how can schools put in appropriate provision in order to prevent exclusions if they don't necessarily have the funding to be able to do it? So, I think there are a number of issues there around post COVID—I know that's often said, but I do think that that has had a huge, huge impact on young people. The services that we've needed, those alternative options that I've mentioned, aren't necessarily there, and, because those options aren't necessarily there, mainstream is sometimes the only option. Now, if mainstream is the only option for a young person and yet mainstream isn't suitable, then it's probably no surprise then that, sometimes, sadly, regrettably, there's a rise in exclusions. So, again, it comes back to: are there appropriate options for young people, is there appropriate funding within the system, does school need to look the same for every young person? If somebody is neurodivergent, then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some adjustments, to look at different courses and options and so on. But, without funding, it's very difficult for schools to be able to find those alternative pathways.

I'll bring Mary in and then Urtha. Mary.

So, I was just going to add to what Mike said in terms of the post-COVID context. During COVID, we've seen many families with disabled children where they've been afraid to send their children to school because of COVID, and before we had a vaccine, obviously, we were in a different situation. Some of those children won't have come back to school because they might have found learning at home better—'better'—or that their needs were able to be met by—. In that, you know, as Mike said, if they had some kind of neurodivergence or something, they weren't being able to access education properly within school. But also, are we truly sure that all of our school buildings have good ventilation systems in place, so that health and safety is maintained for those staff and students who might have additional needs or medical issues, which makes it easier to go to school? So, it's a really complex issue, but we do know that it is the case, and we know from the research that Meilyr Rowlands did previously that it is absolutely the case that disabled children or children identified as having a special educational need were more likely to be absent from school.

Urtha.

Thank you. I think, as I said at the beginning, that exclusion comes in a variety of forms, because a child could exclude themselves to manage their medical needs—that could happen—or they could arrive in school not ready to learn, so then they're excluded on that level. They could actually be in a classroom but not take part in the activity because of the physical barriers due to their condition. So, there are a whole range of issues there that, kind of going further along, if children are not happy in school and not supported, it can lead to self-exclusion, and then at the very extreme, of course, children can be excluded. But those last two categories absolutely rely on staff in the classroom, and all of the ALNCOs I speak with, they cry out for more teaching assistants, and I'm sure you're aware of the debate going on across the nation at the moment about TA pay et cetera and retention of teaching assistants—really, really important. So, again, a member I was speaking within north Wales was describing a situation where her school was taking on pupils who really were outside the capacity of the school, but they still took them on. The risk assessment would identify 2:1, sometimes 3:1; staff were not there to manage that, so, of course, that leads to increasing difficulties for children, for staff and for parents. And again, if the risk assessment is there that states that that support should be in place, it is absolutely the lack of physical staff bodies in the classroom and the funding to support it that leads to that child not being able to attend. Thank you.

Absolutely. Ken.

Thank you. Just finally from me, Chair, a question about ALN reforms. Would you agree that they are being implemented on an inconsistent basis across Wales, and do you think they're having, so far, a positive or negative impact on learners, or is it just too soon to tell?

Ioan.

Obviously, I referred to this briefly earlier. There is inconsistency, obviously. To be fair, we're still at the implementation stage, and it's probably too soon to tell, but all evidence suggests that we're in a situation that the consistency isn't there; the consistency that we'd wish to see is not to be seen. Now, that doesn't mean that schools aren’t doing their utmost to achieve their goals, and I think the support at local levels in schools—you know, teachers are striving as best they can with the facilities they have and with the staffing they have. Yes, there's a lead officer in every authority, yes, the paperwork seems to be in place, but we want to see the practicalities bear fruit here, and I think more time and more investment is needed to ensure success.

Mary.

So, yes, there are inconsistencies across Wales, but the implementation—. And, yes, we are in the implementation period, but I can't see anything that suggests that, when we get to the end of the implementation period, many of the issues that we're seeing now won't be still in place. Because the Act itself, or the code, passes the responsibility down to the school from the local authorities to decide whether a child has an additional learning need and what their additional learning provision should be. So, that's in there, in the legislation. And so, even when we have fully implemented the Act, that's an additional workload for the school, and that's an additional struggle in terms of the school accessing resources from the local authority. 

Urtha.

Thank you. I think there are different strands to this. So, as Ioan has explained, we're all aware that there are inconsistencies across local authorities, but we also have issues of inconsistencies within the Act itself, particularly around section 20 and who can access referrals to health. So, that in itself creates inconsistencies and illogicalities. But the third inconsistency is around health. I'm fully aware that there are systemic issues in health about service provision, whether that is that people work part time or people might be off ill. The request for services has hugely increased so that the services are not there—we know that. But the IDP—there is a statutory duty on health to work in partnership, there is not a statutory duty on health to fulfil the IDP, and that is an inconsistency within the legislation that also means that the burden keeps falling back on the schools. So, there are inconsistencies across the piece, basically. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Ken. We'll move on to some questions now, finally, from Laura Jones.

Yes, thank you, Chair. Yes, firstly, how reassuring it is to hear you all recognising what we've seen from our previous evidence—not today, unfortunately, but previous evidence that we've had to the committee and from our own school visits around Wales—inconsistency across the 22 local authorities, the different interpretations of the ALN code by the 22 local authorities, the different transport issues as well and how they deal with it across the 22 local authorities. There is a myriad of issues that all come together, really, and they're not seen in that holistic approach that you said, like the steering committee—which, funnily enough, I was just reading the minutes of when you started talking about it—and how, actually, the right people aren't involved on that, are they, which in itself is worrying, but not actually surprising considering the last evidence that we just heard before you, where, I'm going to be blunt, the WLGA didn't have a clue about what was going on, let's put it that way. And I find that really, really concerning.

In terms of choices—that's the section I'm asking you about today—'choice' is an interesting word in itself and I don't think it comes in parallel to ALN at all really, does it? How much choice do you actually think there is for parents and children about where they think that their child could be best educated?

Ioan.

Well, yes, you've heard already today, I'm sure, about transportation issues regarding choice and the lack of transportation to the most relevant schools for the various pupils, various children. It's quite clear, I think, in each local area, that there is one school geared to support the children, whether that is planned or not. Things such as school estates come into the question, the specialism within the school and the specialism that they can access easily, the number of pupils. Obviously, the larger the school, the easier it is, in some ways, to access further provision, although we've heard already about class sizes. But I'm aware, I'm sure my colleagues here are aware, of many instances where children have had to move schools in order to facilitate being part of a wider educational community. Now, I live in the north-east of Wales and there is a number of examples I could provide, anecdotally, of children having to move schools and having issues getting the service they provide. Again, it affects Welsh-medium education perhaps more so, in as much as provision for those who are deaf, provision for those who have various ADHD challenges, is not available in the Welsh-medium schools, and they have had to—. In spite of the fact that we're a bilingual country, the choice has been taken away from them. And so that is very concerning to our members. I'm sure you've heard stories from families that schools have turned around and said, 'Well, we'd like to accommodate you, but we can't', or, 'Well, the schools weren't very welcoming to us.' Well, there is an issue with the provision available in the individual schools. So, it is a major concern for our members that pupils, children, aren't able to access their choice of education, boed hynny—be that—linguistically or choice of setting. So, it's a major concern as far as we're concerned.

Thank you. Urtha.

Thank you. There are two particular aspects I wanted to make reference to. One is to consider what are the ills that we're trying to solve, and ultimately we want to raise in our communities strong independent adults. And if you look at post school, what do children with ALN needs do post school? The feedback that I've been having from the ALNCOs is that they don't realise until they've left school, and are perhaps getting support from the voluntary sector, that their expectations can be higher, that they can do more having left school, which is ultimately where we want to be. So, I think the choices in school are definitely putting a box, a limitation, on the expectations, on the visions that the young people are going to be having for their own future, and they're not finding until they've left school, with other support, that they can actually do more than was originally planned.

The other aspect I wanted to mention in terms of choices in school—. Obviously, there's a really strong emphasis on communication, which is going to be largely verbal or written, and there are occasions when, actually, digital would really help. So, something as basic as that can widen up a pupil's choices about how much they can engage with a particular lesson—for example, if you're dyslexic and it speaks back to you through headphones. Sometimes it can be a fairly simple solution to support the choice around their learning. Thank you.

Mike.

Thank you. I suppose choice is only really a relevant question if there is actually a choice, and unfortunately sometimes there isn't a choice because there's a lack of appropriate provision anyway. At its most extreme, if a young person is not able to access school and a local authority is forced, then, to look for out-of-county placements, those are incredibly expensive. Whether they're residential or whether they're just day placements, they're incredibly expensive. It's even more difficult for rural areas, but even in our towns and cities, actually—. As I said, I'm mostly based in Merthyr Tydfil, and although that is a relatively large town, there isn't a great deal, if any at all, of certain types of provision, so you'd have to go out of county. And that'll be the same for many, and those are incredibly expensive. So, yes, I take the point about choice, but there isn't a great deal of choice really in the system anyway.

Laura.

Absolutely not, unfortunately. Are you recognising what, from evidence, we've seen, that because of the lack of places in special schools, there are greater—high—levels of ALN going into mainstream education, which of course exacerbates the problem that we already have? And then, going back to the transport stuff, the lack of transport is a problem, yes, but also the funding is not following the child. As you just alluded to, Mike, it is expensive, but as soon as that parental choice comes into it, then the local authorities are not statutorily—I can't think of the word—

Obliged.

Obliged. Thank you. They're not obliged to pay for that transport. And of course, that cost to a family is astronomical and unjust, in my opinion. Is that something that you recognise as a barrier, and taking away the choice element?

Who wants to go for that? Ioan? [Interruption.] Oh, sorry. 

Transport is definitely a barrier. We hear about that a lot. It's interesting, in other work I've done where health needs rely on transport, this issue comes up time and time again. It's quite difficult to get it included when people are assessed for different needs, the amount of transport they need. So, for a child or a teenager to access social activities outside school, in the evening, obviously they need extra transport there, they need a person to go with them. All of that is about choice and living and becoming an adult, et cetera. The funding for that is just not available. Also, the transport isn't. We've had huge issues in north Wales around accessible transport anyway. There just isn't enough of it.

Yes, and because of the lack of need, there are families where there are four children, for example—and one family that I know—going to different schools, and everything that goes around that, which is awful.

In terms of choice for parents, going back to that, what do you think of the information that's being given out at the moment to parents, in terms of what choices they actually have and what information is available in case that child has specific needs, what route they should go down and what are the avenues that they should be made aware of as a parent, in terms of the school as well and how individual schools deal with it? Obviously, again, the consistency is not going to be there. Some will be great at it; some won't be. What are your experiences in those regards?

Mary.

There will be inconsistencies in that. I think schools are trying their best at this point. Within the context that we first talked about, we're reforming additional learning needs or special educational needs education as it was since 2008, and so there's a lot of expectation built up in the system that we were going to change things and things would be better. I think it's really important that, actually, schools are supported to ensure that they're able to deliver that information, because information is really critical, isn't it, and we know that sometimes it's not just a disabled child who is struggling to access that information, but it could be their family members, parents and carers as well.

Okay. I think we've come over our time, but thank you very much for your time today and your evidence that you've given us, and also thank you very much for your joint paper that you provided to the committee beforehand. That was really helpful to us, so diolch yn fawr. You will be sent a transcript for factual accuracy as well, in the coming weeks, so please check that, but again, thank you for the evidence you've provided. Diolch.

We'll just move on to the next item on our agenda, which is our papers to note. Again, we have a number of papers to note—I think 14 in total. They're set out in the agenda and the paper pack. Are Members content to note those together? I can see Members are. That is great.

We will now move into private, so I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting, so we will now proceed to meet in private.