National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to this meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. Apologies have been received today from Huw Irranca-Davies, who is attending the EU-UK parliamentary assembly. We agreed at the committee meeting on 26 June that I would Chair this meeting. So, just to get started, the meeting is, obviously, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a virtual format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. I trust that Members have already placed their the mobile devices on silent. As we all know, the Senedd operates through the media of English and Welsh, and interpretation is available. Members are reminded that the sound operator is controlling the microphones, and, as such, you do not need to mute and unmute yourselves during the meeting.

Item 2 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The first item we have today is SL(6)365, the Education (Student Finance) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2023. Kate, I can see you on screen, and I hope and trust that you're going to help us with this. These regulations amend various regulations that make provision about and in connection with student finance. I understand there are two technical and one merits reporting points. I also understand that we don't yet have a Welsh Government response to this. Is that correct, Kate?

Yes, that's correct. The first technical point notes a minor inconsistency between the Welsh and English texts. The second technical point identifies a potential instance of defective drafting, and then, finally, the merits point is just to note that there has been no formal consultation in relation to these regulations, and the Welsh Government response will relate to the technical points.

I'm grateful to you for that. Do Members have any observations to make? They don't. So, we confirm that we agree those reporting points. I'm grateful to you for that, Kate.

Item 2.2 is the affirmative resolution instruments, and the item here is SL(6)363, the Packaging Waste (Data Collection and Reporting) (Wales) Regulations 2023. We have a Welsh Government response to this. The regulations impose requirements on producers established in Wales to collect data on the packaging they supply to others. In some cases, they also need to report information to Natural Resources Wales. Now, I understand that this is the third version of these regulations to be laid before the Senedd, and earlier versions have been withdrawn. As a committee, we wrote to the Minister for Climate Change on 14 March requesting responses to matters raised in a draft report on a previous set of regulations. A reply was received from the Minister on 23 March, and this is the letter referred to in the report. Senedd lawyers have identified five technical and eight merits reporting points, and a Welsh Government response has been received. Kate, could you talk us through this, please?

Yes, thank you. One of the technical points and seven of the merits points are matters that were raised in the correspondence between the committee and the Minister, and the Minister explained in her response that, in the Welsh Government’s view, no amendment was required to address those particular points. So, we have included those points in the draft report and quoted the Minister’s response where relevant.

The remaining four technical points and one merits point require a further Welsh Government response because they were not resolved in that correspondence, or because they have only arisen on this version of the draft. Three of those technical points seek further explanation from the Welsh Government about particular issues with the drafting, and the final one of those technical points identifies an inconsistency between the Welsh and English, specifically a missing word in the Welsh text.

In response to those technical points, the Welsh Government has confirmed that it will correct these minor errors prior to making the instrument. The Welsh Government also confirms that the Minister will bring these issues to Members’ attention during the debate in accordance with the steps that the Counsel General set out in his correspondence with this committee on 18 January and 15 February 2023.

Finally, then, the last merits point asks Welsh Government to explain the delay between the withdrawal of the previous draft of these regulations and the laying of this draft, given that only limited changes appear to have been made. In response, the Welsh Government notes that the previous draft was withdrawn following comments from this committee on the technical drafting. In between withdrawing and relaying the regulations, the Welsh Government took time to schedule sufficient quality assurance processes in terms of legal drafting and translation in order to minimise substantive errors. The Welsh Government also liaised with the Scottish, Northern Ireland and UK Governments to clarify aspects of the policy in order to maintain regulatory alignment.

Thank you for that. And there are still five technical and merits reporting points.

There are, yes.

It's pretty disappointing. The committee's reported on these matters a number of times over the last few months. Is this something that we could bear in mind when the Counsel General is in front of the committee next week, to perhaps ask him about some of the issues that we're finding with some of these regulations, because it does appear to me that there are too many errors being made by Government lawyers on some of these issues? Perhaps this is something we could raise with the Counsel General next week. Is that fair? Members seem to be nodding, so I will accept that. Thank you very much for that, Kate. We agree the reporting points, unless Members have any objections, and we'll raise some of those issues with the Counsel General next week.

Item 3, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 that have been previously considered. The first item here is SL(6)364, the Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 26 June, and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government's response to the report, which has since been received. Do we have any further comments on this, or observations? Kate.

No further comments from us, just to note that Welsh Government have confirmed that the various issues are going to be corrected before the SI is signed.

On that basis, are Members content? Members seem to be content. I'm grateful to you for that.

Item 4, notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement, and the first item here is item 4.1, correspondence from the Minister for Climate Change on the Transport and Works (Applications, Objections and Inquiries Procedure) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Rules 2023. And we have a letter here dated 26 June. The Minister's letter states that she's now formally agreed to the UK Government laying and making these rules. This follows her letter to us on 16 May, in which the Minister notified us of her intention to consent. The Minister writes that it's the UK Government's intention to lay the statutory instrument before Parliament on 14 July, with a coming-into-force date of 11 August. These rules amend various legislation, some of which is England only, but other changes relate to England and Wales. Do we have any observations to make on this, Members? I would simply say to you, Gareth, as clerk, where a single statutory instrument is amending legislation, some of which is England only, and other elements refer to England and Wales, that sounds to me like quite a complex piece of legislation, and that might again be something we might wish to raise with the Counsel General next week, if Members are content. It's a good thing that we've got the Counsel General in next week, looking at some of these matters.

Item 4.2, written statement and correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government on the inter-ministerial group meeting for housing, communities and local government. This is a written statement from 26 June. We're invited to note the letter and written statement. This was originally scheduled for 10 October last year but postponed at the request of the UK Government. The Welsh Government was represented by officials because the Minister for Climate Change was unable to attend on the day, and topics of discussion included homelessness as well as building safety. If Members are happy and content to note that, we'll move on to the next item.

Item 4.3, correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd on the Persistent Organic Pollutants (Amendment) Regulations 2023. We're invited to note this letter in relation to these regulations. The Minister writes of her intention to consent to the UK Government making and laying the regulations. These regulations will extend to England, Scotland and Wales, and the Minister notes that a similar request for consent has been sent to Scottish Ministers. The regulations will extend the expiry date of a derogation for the manufacturing, placing on the market and use of perfluorooctanoic acid compounds. The purpose of the regulation is to allow for specific exemption to be applied for protective equipment used by UK armed forces personnel. The Minister states that,

'On this occasion, it is considered appropriate for the substance of the amendments to apply to Wales as there is no policy divergence between the Welsh and UK Government on this matter.'

Are Members content? I see they are.

Item 4.4, correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd on the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme: Public Health, Marketing and Organic Product Standards and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2023. We're invited to note this letter with regard to these regulations, and the Minister outlines her intention to consent to the UK Government making or laying the regulations. Her view is that consent has been given to the UK Government to make these regulations following the Windsor framework agreement, which was reached by the UK and the EU in February of this year. If we have any issues on this, perhaps this is an appropriate item for private session. Do Members have any issues? I can see nobody indicating.

I'll move on to item 5, papers to note. The first item is correspondence from the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee to the Minister for Economy on ministerial scrutiny. This correspondence follows the committee's scrutiny session with the Minister on 21 June. Amongst other things, the committee has requested regular updates on the implementation of the Windsor framework and border control point target operating model. I will carry on through correspondence unless Members indicate that they wish to raise an issue.

Item 5.2 is a letter from the Minister for Climate Change, relating to the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023, in which she states that the regulations will fall under the scope of the resources and waste common framework. 

Item 5.3, a written statement from the Counsel General in which he provides an update on the work being done by the Welsh Government to ensure the accessibility of Welsh law on legislation.gov.uk. The Counsel General's statement details the ongoing work that has been done and commits to continuing to update Members on the progress being made, including in the annual report on the programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law, which will be laid before the Senedd later this year.

Item 5.4 is a letter from the Minister for Climate Change, again on our report on the Welsh Government's supplementary legislative consent memorandum, memorandum No. 3, on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Item 5.5 is the letter from the Minister for Climate Change, again, to the Minister of State for Housing and Planning. The letter is in relation to the introduction to the UK Parliament of the UK Government Renters (Reform) Bill. The Minister responds to the UK Government's view that the consent of the Senedd is required for the changes the Bill makes to Part 7 of the Housing Act 1996. She states, however, that detailed consideration by Welsh Government officials has concluded that this is not the case as a consequence of the implementation of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 on 1 December of last year, which abolished assured tenancies in Wales. This is another matter we may wish to consider in private session.

Item 5.6, correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government to the Llywydd on the Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill. This follows the introduction of this Bill to the House of Commons, and the Minister states that the Welsh Government has not been able to produce a legislative consent memorandum within the normal two-week timescale following introduction due to the broad coverage of the Bill and to ensure that committees have a comprehensive LCM to consider. The Minister tells us an LCM will be laid as soon as possible, although 'as soon as possible' is obviously not defined. We may wish to consider that in more detail alongside our conversation on LCMs.

That brings us to item 6, which is a motion under 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree? If Members do agree, and Members are in agreement, then we will move into private session.