National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee meeting. This is a hybrid meeting, so some Members are in the Senedd and others are joining us online, along with our three witnesses for today's seventh hearing on prevention and early intervention: the public health approach to preventing gender-based violence. I've had no apologies as all Members are present. Are there any declarations of interest amongst Members? I see none. 

So, I'd now like to welcome our three witnesses representing three of the four police forces in Wales: Amanda Blakeman, chief constable for north Wales; Dafydd Llywelyn, police and crime commissioner for Dyfed-Powys; and Emma Wools, deputy police and crime commissioner for south Wales. You're all very welcome and thank you very much for coming to talk to us today. I just want to reiterate to both Members and witnesses that we are focusing on prevention and early intervention in this inquiry, and there are obviously other matters that have been mentioned in the police written evidence around secondary prevention and the relationship with the criminal justice system. But, for today and in this inquiry, we're looking very much at the public health approach to prevention and early intervention. 

So, if you don't mind, I'm going to start us off by asking you how far you think the police in your areas of responsibility have travelled down the route of ensuring that all members of your forces are comfortable with and supporting a public health approach to policing. I don't know who would like to go first. Dafydd, do you want to start us off? 

Chair, yes, if you don't mind. So, I think one point of note just at the outset of giving the evidence is that the three of us here with you today are actually speaking on behalf of policing in Wales collectively. So, we work collaboratively very strongly here in Wales. We have a structure of governance that allows us to come together—the four police and crime commissioners and the four chief constables—and we meet regularly to ensure that we have, in effect, shared endeavours across our communities here in Wales, and we do that with some envy, I guess, from our counterparts across the border in England, because we also have and are served very well by close ties and links into Welsh Government. I give evidence in front of you here today as the joint chair of the violence against women and girls ministerial board that has been set up in the last 12 months or so. So, I jointly chair that with Jane Hutt, the Minister for Social Justice. 

So, we're here speaking, yes, on behalf of us individually representing forces but also in that collective vein, and a lot of the work—and Amanda can come on to talk about some of the operational response—is done in that way where we try and share endeavours. We try and ensure, also, that there's an equality of access to services across our communities, so that there isn't, hopefully, a postcode lottery across Wales in terms of the service provision provided to communities. So, that is perhaps just the first statement to make. 

In terms of the specific responses, there has been a lot of work undertaken in this space around early intervention and prevention. We were fortunate across Wales to get some additional funding from the Home Office, and there was a project that was developed in terms of adverse childhood experiences, which was the start, really, in my opinion, of the way in which we try to frame an understanding into our operational delivery in Wales, that it's a trauma-informed service. And that forms part, again, of that public health approach that we have here across all of the forces in Wales. Where we have the ministerial board and also the policing in Wales structures, we're able then to bring partners along with us in relation to that journey. So, we very often have public health officials and key individuals alongside us in the delivery of the activity that we undertake.

So, just a few words of setting the scene and the context, and perhaps it would be worthwhile bringing Amanda in to talk about some of the specifics from an operational point of view, if Amanda's happy to do so.  

Thank you, Dafydd. Chair, would you like me to respond? Thank you. So, the commissioner there has set out a really good synopsis of how we work across Wales, and I’ve got examples I can give of pieces of work that we’ve done that we’ve been able to replicate across all forces in Wales to make sure that there isn’t that postcode lottery in terms of our victims. But what has held that together quite soundly is the work that the deputy police and crime commissioner, Emma Wools, and also the deputy police and crime commissioner for Gwent, Eleri Thomas have done, working across Wales to try to develop with partners, which has been our blueprint approach. And that blueprint approach does really set out those themes in which we are going to consider and we are going to be active in terms of being able to really get to grips with the issues that we see, and Emma might want to talk about those in greater detail.

From a policing perspective, there is a strategic policing requirement in relation to this area, newly brought through in February 2023. So, you’ve got a strategic policing requirement that includes violence against women and girls, set against also other responsibilities that we’ve got within that strategic policing requirement, which includes serious and organised crime, counter-terrorism, public disorder, civil emergencies, child sexual abuse, national cyber incidents, and also our responsibility for firearms, air support and roads policing. And the reason that I go through that is you can see that the context in which we are developing and delivering policing across Wales means that we need to prioritise the work we’re doing, and we certainly have done that in terms of investing in the ACE approach. That took place some years ago and has continued to be a golden thread, really, in terms of how we are training our officers and the type of activity that we do to make sure that we can really be on top of the training that our officers need to be able to spot those early points either with a family, with a young person, in whatever setting, so we can be more trauma-informed, and we can make sure that those early warning mechanisms are set off in relation to other agencies, to make sure that we’ve got that wholesale approach. One example would be public protection notices, where there’s an issue with a domestic abuse matter, for instance, in a home, and then, within a very short period of time, we have informed the school, so the school is aware of what is happening for that child in that space at that time, and they can put those early interventions in place.

So there’s a lot of work that is going on, and our police community support officers really have driven this work, and continue to drive this work. So that just gives a snapshot, and I think it might be worth Emma giving an overview of the work we've done on the blueprint, because that can then perhaps frame some of the questions, then, in relation to how we’ve further been able to really put a great deal of leverage behind the early trauma-informed approach that we have in terms of this area.

Okay. Before I come to Emma, could you just clarify that it's mandatory that all police forces who attend domestic violence, gender-based violence events will automatically inform the school of any child that may have been involved?

Yes. So, every officer would fill out a public protection notice, a PPN, and through Operation Encompass, which works across Wales, that then triggers that alert to the school, so, as I say, that child turning up the next day, having been through something horrendous, quite traumatic, the night before, potentially, has got that wider understanding in terms of the school environment that day.

Thank you. Emma.

Thank you, Chair. I just thought it might be helpful to build on both what the commissioner and the chief constable have said in terms of policing in Wales’s journey around the public health approach. So, I’d probably like to take us back to around 2017, 2018, when we took leadership, alongside public health, to sign up to a collaboration agreement involving policing, public health and wider partners, that we were going to take that public health approach and methodology to the way in which we tackled violence, and particularly then violence against women and girls. As the chief constable mentioned, this then developed into a programme of delivery called Early Action Together that saw policing leadership alongside a range of partners within criminal justice and wider social care and health in developing products and resources to support the upskilling and education of front-line police officers and criminal justice staff in understanding more about ACEs and that public health response. As a consequence of that programme, we were able to train and upskill 6,500 police officers across Wales and partnership staff, building on all the learning and outputs from that national programme that we were given sponsorship for.

We have been able to use a lot of that learning to think about how we apply that public health methodology and understanding now to the delivery of the Welsh Government's most recent VAWDASV strategy, published back in the summer of last year. Policing in Wales, I am pleased to say, as the commissioner mentioned, is now leading, alongside the Welsh Government, in a joint transformation programme under the blueprint framework, which I know this committee is very familiar with— 

Yes, we have been looking at that. You say that you are working jointly with Public Health Wales since 2017-18. Could you just give us some insight into the role that the Early Action Together programme has played—I think that it is funded by the police, but run jointly with Public Health Wales—to support your transformation of policing in a multi-agency approach to this issue? Do you have any reflections on how well that has worked? Emma, do you want to start?

Yes. As I have said, that programme of work produced a number of products and evidence that has since been used in terms of shaping early help and early intervention models. I will speak for south Wales as an example. Since the conclusion of Early Action Together, South Wales Police have set up early help hubs, which are a model based on the evidence and learning. These hubs operate right across the force area and are underpinned by PCSOs and local neighbourhood teams, working with local partners in order to identify issues at the earliest opportunity and signpost where there is vulnerability, including children and families who are experiencing violence and domestic abuse.

We have also used the training package to build on a number of other training products that are being delivered across our workforces and continue to develop, and we are about to go into a refreshed initiative that is being jointly led by Chief Constable Amanda Blakeman and Dr Jo Hopkins from Public Health Wales, whereby we will be reinvigorating that upscaling of that training programme across both policing and partners. 

So, just to clarify, the Early Action Together programme doesn't any longer exist because you have moved the learning from it into these early help hubs. Is that right?

Absolutely. So, we have taken that learning into developing a lot of operational models and activity, of which the example I have given you for south Wales is just one. 

Okay. But would that service exist in other parts of Wales, or is it just a south Wales service at the moment?

All of the forces have different approaches to early help, and I don't know whether the chief constable or the commissioner may want to come in.

Yes. So, where I described earlier, trying to ensure that we don't have that postcode lottery and patchwork quilt of delivery, each of the forces will have an operational delivery that's slightly different, from the point of view that we are four different forces. But, for example, what Emma described there, in Dyfed-Powys, we have a central vulnerability hub, where there is a secondary risk assessment of cases, and information that comes through to our team at headquarters.

Because of the geography that we have, we have held that centrally at headquarters, and we have tried to use the technology, in effect, to enable us to have that pulling together of information. So, the delivery model might be slightly different, but what sits behind it is that it is based on the same firm foundation of evidence that has informed us to get to the position that we are at. So, that would be the descriptor, really: just to say that, perhaps, the delivery would be slightly different, but the ethos, and the way of working, generally speaking, is consistent. Perhaps Amanda would allude to a similar position in north Wales.   

Amanda, you need to—. Can we unmute Amanda, please?

Can you hear me now?

Yes, we can hear you. Thank you.

Thank you. So, yes, absolutely. As Emma and Dafydd have described there, the delivery mechanism depends upon the type of force area that we're covering, the rurality, for instance, the make-up of the local authorities, the partnership working that's already in place there. But the ethos, the principles, the evidence base that sit beneath it are exactly the same, and the whole aim, isn't it, is to make sure that we get the early help to that young person, that child, that family to make sure that those that are making and can make a difference are informed, and that safeguarding and signposting happen.

What I would say also is that the modelling differs because of things like the multi-agency safeguarding hubs and local authorities and where they sit financially. So, those discussions are ongoing, which means that you will see a difference in terms of delivery mechanisms, but with the same ethos across Wales.

Okay, thank you for that. Jane Dodds, you want to come in.

Amanda Blakeman.

Did you want me to come in, Chair?

You had your hand up, so I assumed you did.

Thank you. It's a really good question, isn't it, and we work really hard to try to make sure that there isn't a postcode lottery, as you call it, across Wales. So, what I would say is that we are inspected quite heavily in this area. From a policing perspective, we are inspected by His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, and there's a real need for us to make sure that we are continually learning, looking at each other, making sure that we've got the best there. But that inspection also happens in a joint way, so we are inspected across that whole remit to make sure that we are delivering the same response in relation to young people, depending upon their circumstances and situation. So, I'm as confident as I can be that we are doing our very best to make sure that there is an equal service across Wales, and we are continually evolving and learning. That's why it is really good that some areas have pilot work in place, because we would want to take that learning and make that an eventuality across Wales.

Okay. Dafydd, you wanted to come in—briefly, because we need to move on or we'll never get to the other parts of our— 

Okay, thank you very much. Can I bring in Ken Skates now, please?

Thanks, Chair. Can I, first of all, ask about the work, specifically, that North Wales Police undertakes during freshers week in working with universities? I'd be interested to know what the outcomes are of the work that's undertaken, and also, then, whether other police forces run similar campaigns.

Who wants to go first on this? You don't all need to come in if you agree, but do add if you want to, if there's something that—. Amanda, did you want to indicate?

Absolutely, yes, I can respond as it's a north Wales-based question. Thank you, Mr Skates. We're really proud of the work that we do with universities. There's a huge amount that goes on. We have a PCSO and a community beat manager attached to the universities, such as we see the importance in terms of making sure there's a good level of interaction, there's a good level of understanding, and there's that single point in terms of us understanding exactly what's going on at the university. So, a huge amount of effort and work go into that raising awareness, making sure that the young people that are coming to our beautiful area for the first time have got that ability to be able to be aware of their location and also be aware of the differences in terms of living away from home. But I know that that work is absolutely replicated at the universities across Wales. So, what we do here in north Wales is probably no different to what you'd see at Aberystwyth University and across the universities in Gwent and south Wales as well.

So, in terms of the outcomes in relation to it, it's always really difficult to measure prevention, isn't it? It's something we are working really hard on. What I see as success is young people reporting to us, making us aware of issues, making us aware of anything that we should be aware of that we can put prevention models around. So, it's very difficult to try and measure the prevention outcomes in relation to that work, but, again, I think it's an incredibly valuable thing that I wouldn't want us to stop doing.

Chair, if I could come in just to—I'm not going to repeat what Amanda said—agree with that. Of course, universities are set up in—. They're communities that are set up and refreshed on an annual basis, aren't they, in that sense, within our communities, and can be quite transient in nature, so it's really important for us to have that continued engagement from policing, and that is embedded within our neighbourhood policing teams structure.

Now, what is also there and embedded in the neighbourhood policing teams structure, which I thought was worthy of note, is the schools programme. So, the question was in relation to universities, but just to step back from that, in terms of the schools programme, we have a very mature schools programme and officers that are engaged on a regular basis with schools.

Excellent. Can I stop you there, because I'd like to come on to schools a little bit later? If Ken continues his questioning, and then we'll come on to schools—very important.

Thanks, Chair. I'm going to just focus, if I may, with my time, on the night-time economy. Are there any other interventions that police forces undertake proactively to prevent gender-based violence, such as working with door staff or training bar staff?

So, I just wanted to come in quickly in relation to the night-time economy in particular, because you will have seen that the Home Office have issued recently a wave of what they refer to as 'safer streets' funding, and each of the forces have got a track record of receiving some considerable additional funding. I was reading just this week that, I think, north Wales have had over £1 million for investments in Wrexham, for example, targeting the safer street, night-time economy agenda.

In Dyfed-Powys, I invested as a commissioner over £1 million in mature CCTV infrastructure for the force. We've got 25 towns now covered 24/7 and from our control room. Now, the purpose of mentioning that is linked to the vulnerabilities that have become more evident, because what has happened—and Emma took us back to 2017 and the journey that we've been on—is that our understanding and learning in relation to violence against women and girls in particular has matured. I think we now appreciate that there is something specific around wanting to ensure that everybody, but in particular women, feel safe in public spaces, and what we've done in Dyfed-Powys is we've given input to the operators of our CCTV monitoring system there to ensure that they can spot and identify vulnerable individuals, and be a part of the response, ultimately, in that sense. But Amanda might want to respond directly in terms of some of the work being done operationally.

Amanda.

Yes, thank you. So, yes, Dafydd is absolutely right there, and, just to give a really good sense of what's happening on the streets, we have officers deployed both overtly and covertly to try and identify predatory behaviour, and to support individuals who may be vulnerable. We've engaged extensively with businesses, training staff to be able to spot that themselves and be upstanders in relation to it, so that they're able to flag that and identify it to us. We spoke just recently about universities and the work that's happened there where we have had—. South Wales particularly have a really good connection in with the students union. I know that happens in other universities as well.

Dafydd spoke about the safer streets funding and what we've done in various environments. This included CCTV and the training of CCTV operators, and a huge amount of work around spiking the drinks, training staff in relation to being able to identify that sort of predatory behaviour that we see. Again, a huge amount into pastoral care, volunteers, safer spaces within the night-time economy—that sort of women's safety-at-night charter that south Wales has been really successful in, because of the vibrancy of their night-time economy around Cardiff, particularly, where they have looked at safer transport home. So, there has been a huge amount of activity and work, and we're working through the evidence base there, in terms of what works, in terms of reducing it, and also what works in terms of making people feel safe, in terms of accessing and using the night-time economy in the way that we should be able to, quite freely and quite happily.

Great, thank you. The Cardiff TASC project has proved to be effective in tackling alcohol-related violence, although it's not really noted in your written evidence. Are you able to just provide some details about the project and what impact it really is having?

I can't, here and now, in terms of that particular project, Mr Skates. I'm happy to do some supplementary if that's okay. It wouldn't be right of me—. I wouldn't do it justice in relation to Cardiff, so, if that's okay, I can provide that additionally afterwards.

That would be brilliant, thank you. Yes, that would be very kind of you. Thanks. Just finally, a question about how you work with British Transport Police, and also local authorities and indeed transport companies, to help ensure women and girls feel safe using public transport, particularly at night. Are you able to measure how successful your interventions have been?

We work really closely with British Transport Police—really vital in terms of the network across Wales, particularly here in north Wales. It's a very, very difficult and challenging network in terms of being able to get from one place to another, so we do and we work consistently—. British Transport Police are part of our strategic group and also part of the interventions that we're putting in place. We also do work with our transport companies. We do provide a visible presence in relation to the buses, trains et cetera, so that we are able to identify again those behaviours, those predatory individuals, and we also work in terms of training staff. So, there is quite a lot that goes on in terms of the networks. We do quite a lot of work in terms of measuring public confidence. We can provide those figures to you separately, but you can see that, actually, the confidence of women in our area in terms of interacting with the police and in terms of feelings of safety are higher than you would anticipate them to be. I've been quite pleasantly surprised by the fact that, actually, those are higher than I thought they would be. I'd like to think that's because we put quite a lot of work into visibility interventions, working with partners, and making sure that people do feel safe. But, again, there is always a challenge in terms of being able to look at that piece of prevention and being able to identify exactly that behaviour.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Dafydd, did you want to add something to that?

Yes, just very briefly, to supplement what Amanda was saying as well. Specifically in Dyfed-Powys, we've got a child sexual exploitation officer, whose main role is to go out and promote and educate key partners, which would include people working within the infrastructure within our communities—taxi drivers and those types of individuals who have a really critical role to play in calling out and making the right call if they were to witness something, and also to appreciate, perhaps, the responsibilities that they have.

And then the other thing, because there was an element of local authority partnership in the question as well, is that we work very closely with local authorities. I think Amanda talked earlier about the safeguarding environment, and this is where we straddle between the devolved and non-devolved activity and ensure that we have some vim and vigour into that safeguarding world and that activity, and we also co-commission services. So, the independent domestic violence advocates, for example, are co-commissioned by policing in my area and unitary authorities, which, again, is replicated elsewhere. So, I just wanted to highlight those specific points. Thank you.

Okay. I'd like to move us on to schools, but is there something specific, Amanda, you wanted to just add?

I do apologise—it's very, very quick. It's just to make you aware that we do additional training with hotel staff, reception staff and also with our fuel station staff, because it's not all about transport on your local transport infrastructure. It's also young people who are being, perhaps, trafficked or exploited or are not in a comfortable position, and certainly we are training staff at fuel stations and also hotel staff to alert us if they are concerned about anybody that they see and they don't think that the situation feels or looks right.

Thank you, that's very useful. Can we move on to schools? Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much, Chair. Now, what evidence is there that interventions involving the police in schools are effective in changing the attitudes and behaviour of young people with regard to gender-based violence? And do schools differ with regard to the extent to which they have engaged with this programme?

Emma, did you want to come in first?

Thank you, Chair. So, as the commissioner has already mentioned, we've got a jointly funded Wales police schools programme, alongside Welsh Government, which deploys a group of dedicated schools police officers who have responsibility for accessing all primary and secondary schools and pupil referral units. Those schools police officers are there to provide a supportive role to the wider schooling family in terms of being able to support and tackle incidents and interventions, using our primary protocol, but, most importantly, are there to provide educational inputs as relevant from policing perspective, in supporting children and young people to understand a number of crime and safety issues.

In terms of violence against women and girls specifically, we've got a range of resources and tools that that programme has developed that get delivered both within the classroom environment, but also wider assembly. We do that alongside teachers and other third-party experts who are able to come in and provide support.

I will say, in terms of, again, evaluation, being able to evidence the prevention of something is quite challenging. However, what I would say is that, just one example, in terms of feedback from the recent Estyn investigation into peer-on-peer sexual abuse, or sexual harassment should I say, did highlight the role of the schools police officer as being considered by pupils as that trusted professional and trusted adult. Again, I think, showing that policing's role in school, in terms of safety and providing that professional input, is absolutely valued.

Thank you. Altaf.

Now, we've heard about school-based interventions focused on reducing dating violence and sexual violence. What collaboration is there between specialist organisations and the school liaison programme, for example, to embed consistent messages around safe dates and the sharing of sexualised images, et cetera?

So, the schools programme is always looking at working with broader specialist partners, as I've said already, to help us develop the tools and resources that we deliver through the programme. So, through our partnerships with Welsh Women's Aid and other specialist sector organisations, and Public Health Wales in particular, we're able to draw on the evidence base to support the development of appropriate and effective materials.

We've also just recently undertaken a bit of a review of the programme, knowing that we want to make sure that we keep pace and evolve the programme to be responsive to the issues that children and young people are facing, particularly thinking about how we create better tools and resources to support young people in the online space, not just in terms of sexual harassment and abuse that may occur in a physical space. And so we're working very closely with the violence prevention units, as well as through the VAWDASV blueprint that we talked about earlier on in this evidence session, to better understand how we develop and respond to those online safety matters.

Thanks, Emma. Do school liaison officers also work with colleges and pupil referral units? And do you know whether the all-Wales school liaison programme has seen any increase in misogynistic attitudes towards Twitter's decisions to allow the incel movement back onto the platform?

So, in terms of the Wales schools police offer, we offer intervention for five to 16-year-olds. So, in terms of that higher education engagement we talked about earlier, we do that from a policing perspective through other mechanisms, rather than those schools officers. They are very much concentrated in that primary and secondary school space, as you would understand.

In terms of the secondary point that you made around whether we're seeing any more evidence of misogynistic attitudes or behaviour, I think the evidence that's coming up through the programme from our schools officers very much concurs with evidence that has been gained from Estyn's report, through what schools and teachers in the environment are seeing, where those attitudes are, unfortunately, prevalent amongst young people, and that's what I talked about earlier, that further work needs to be done in terms of understanding how we support those who are exposed to toxic behaviour and attitudes through an online space or are victims of sexual harassment or abuse through that online mechanism.

Thanks, Emma. You did point out about Estyn, about their, shall we say, restorative approaches to gender-based violence in schools. Can you tell us about the effectiveness of these approaches with regard to the prevention of gender-based violence?

Can I just add in? Sexualised images being transmitted by adults is obviously very current in the news at the moment, but the schools in my area report that students are just not listening to the police or anybody else, or their teachers. They are continuing to promote sexualised images of their peers, which are impossible to retrieve; once they go online, they're there forever. So, I just wondered if you could tell us whether you think we're fighting a losing battle here.

Can I come in? I put my hand up a little bit earlier, and it was actually on this point. I wanted to just mention that we do have specific lessons in relation to sharing sexualised images and, yes, I guess there is anecdotal information and evidence coming forward that young people are still involved and participating in sharing images. I'm sort of going off-piste a little bit here, and speaking a little bit more from personal experience—I'm a father of five, two of whom are now out of school age—but I think the generation I've got—. I've got a 16-year-old and a 14-year old. The thing is, they keep changing their ages, don't they, every year, so I can never remember. [Laughter.] Anyway, so a 14 and 16-year-old, and I think that they are more aware and savvier in relation to the issues relating to the legal frameworks, the issues that you can get involved in, and certainly, in my area, I know the force school liaison programme officers have been at the forefront of delivering those messages.

And then, the secondary part of the question was around the restorative approaches. I think that is critical to the work that the SchoolBeat programme does. So, there's a long, long list of offences that can be dealt with within the school environment, so that if the parents and the young people involved are happy, there is a restorative repairing of the harm that is caused, and then, in effect, the non-criminal or decriminalisation of the individual involved because of the setting. It doesn't devalue the seriousness of it because—. Again, I don't want to divulge too many personal secrets as part of this session, but I had to get involved in one of those as a parent some years ago, and it was very hard-hitting for the individuals involved as well, so the seriousness is still there, albeit done in a restorative approach.

The other point I wanted to just finally throw in as well is that police and crime commissioners can add some value in this space as well in our innovative approaches. In the Dyfed-Powys area, I've actually commissioned separately some drama in education work with Arad Goch, a local drama company that's based in Aberystwyth, where they did some drama in education, difficult messages that were able to be played out with the young people through the schools, and then having a secondary follow-up involving the school liaison officers. So, there's an opportunity for us to be quite innovative in some of this as well, and not just deliver what might be described by some as stale messages from the uniformed officer from the front of the class, but being a bit more innovative about our delivery.

Okay. Thank you, Dafydd. Amanda, briefly, please.

Okay, thank you. Yes, we are working hard, aren't we, to educate young people to make the right choices, and we appreciate—I think everybody appreciates—the huge amount of peer pressure that comes from friends, from social media and from people who are met online. So, there's a real trick, isn't there, in terms of being able to provide the mechanism, the release for a young person, to let us know if they've got themselves into something they are really concerned and worried about, before that escalates and becomes a real problem for them, and we have those mechanisms in place. But it's also a job for us, isn't it, and we work, again, really hard with partners, the National Crime Agency, with our regional organised crime units, with our staff on the ground, to make sure that those people who are preying on young people in this way, in this sense—. We are targeting them to make sure that they cannot operate and provide that space for vulnerability and that space for sharing. So, there is a wider sense to this, isn't there, other than peer to peer, about how we are able to—. You know, educating those choices is really important, and the schools programme goes a long way in terms of being able to do that in the first instance.

Thank you. Emma, did you want to come in or has Amanda already said it for you? Can I move to Jane Dodds now, please?

The survivor's voice is being heard loud and clear because we have created that opportunity through the ministerial board that I co-chair with Jane Hutt. So that is really, really important, so that we get to hear—good, bad or indifferent, as, Jane, you alluded to, perhaps that some experiences haven't been fantastic over the years—in order for us to make improvements. And I, for example, in Dyfed-Powys, have got a victims engagement forum; they're able to sit in and support us in terms of policy and guidance changes in force, to ensure that we can use them as, in effect, a secondary way of checking and testing that what we're doing is in line with their train of thought as well. So, they're just some things that we're doing. I wonder whether—. Well, the hands are up with my colleagues. Diolch.

Emma.

I just wanted to build on the point the commissioner made about the voices of women and girls. So, part of that work, in terms of improving trust and confidence, is to make sure that we're hearing those voices with some regularity, and that we also have the opportunity to engage women and girls in terms of the co-production, again, underpinning a public health approach in terms of the solutions that we look to put in place, and those improvements. So, as the commissioner has mentioned, we've got a panel on a national level for victims and survivors to engage in the blueprint work. And also each force as well has their own community engagement with—. South Wales, which I'll speak of, has a victims and survivors network, who we regularly engage with in terms of policy and practice, checking and testing that the solutions that we're putting in place are the ones that are going to respond to the issues and concerns they've had.

Secondly, also, whilst, again, I absolutely agree with the commissioner's point about there are still significant improvements to make in this area, what we do need to get better at is in terms of communication where we know services and practices are good. We do have a strength in practice of policing, along with a number of the grant-funded services and partnership collaborations we have. And it's our responsibility as well to be able to promote where those services are good, so that we can provide reassurance to women and girls in terms of being able to access. And again, that was a particular topic of conversation that we had at the national board with the Minister last week in fact, where we're saying we need more of a cross-public-service collaborative campaign in terms of where the strength of those services lie, so that the public are more confident about where they can go and reach out.

Thank you. Amanda.

So, just to build on the two points made, really, it's around taking all of that, isn't it, really understanding it, and accepting the fact that there are and have been instances where the police have not got this right, where people have lost confidence, and where the join-up in relation to other agencies—criminal justice agencies, for instance—has meant that people have been waiting a long time, or they haven't had the updates that they should have, and they've lost confidence as that situation has progressed, really. So, in terms of understanding that, then, it's around how we train our officers, how we are able to improve that service, moving forward. So, we have completed Domestic Abuse Matters training across Wales, licensed and accredited by the College of Policing, but delivered here in Wales jointly with Welsh Women's Aid and SafeLives, so our officers understand and understand the impact in relation to everybody that they have contact with.

We also have improved the capture that we are able to make in terms of information—so, where people are impacted in an incident, how we're able to safeguard better, how we're able to reach in better in terms of that. There are specialist teams that we've put in place in terms of domestic abuse, in terms of being able to make sure that an individual who has taken that point to contact us, which won't be the first point that they have been subject to domestic abuse, has that ongoing support, is really important. So, that training, that understanding of the DASH, domestic abuse, stalking, harassment and honour-based violence, risk assessment, the link-in to the independent services, are really, really key for us. We've also started to do some work with criminal justice partners in the criminal justice space, looking at, from start to finish, domestic abuse, and understanding where we see attrition, where we see loss of confidence, where we see people being let down, so then we can go back and really pinpoint that and make sure that we're targeting what we should be doing across the board. Nationally, there's been a real development in terms of how we look at how we develop a national action plan with the Crown Prosecution Service in relation to this area.

I could go on to talk about our own culture in policing, professional standards, all the work that we're doing in terms of this particular area, but just to highlight a few, if that's okay.  

So, just to comment about south Wales specifically, as a force area the police and crime commissioner funds Welsh Women's Aid to deliver Change That Lasts, which is very much a primary prevention approach, and, within that, the Ask Me scheme is delivered. So, the scheme and the training is effectively to upskill and support community members at grassroots level to be able to understand, identify and challenge attitudes and behaviour. So, I know, from a south Wales perspective, there's quite active participation in that space, and whilst I couldn't say for definite that those who are victims of domestic abuse also participate, I would suggest that, given the likelihood in terms of prevalence of that issue, those who have been affected directly or indirectly are likely to have been part of the training available. 

Also, just to add on to that, as part of that Change That Lasts scheme, we've got a co-ordination network of ambassadors—so, those who go on from that training to feel, I suppose, more specialist and confident in that space in an active citizenship role that looks at, again, supporting local communities and local community networks in terms of their response to domestic abuse and sexual violence. 

Okay. Thank you. 

Okay. Thank you, if that's okay with all three of you. I'm looking at the time. We've got seven minutes of our allotted time for two more areas, so I just wondered if you could spare us an additional 15 minutes so that we get these two important areas covered. Is that—? Emma, have you got other—? Is that okay? Yes, fine. Okay. Moving on to Sioned Williams, then. 

We want to change that behaviour, ultimately, and some of these offender interventions can be very successful in that. But I think it will, critically, come down to available funding and the prioritisation. We are, at the moment, prioritising victims and the support to survivors, but a greater proportion of funding needs to go into that prevention space around changing behaviours. 

So, you can't refer people because you haven't got the money? I mean, can't you just give people the information and they decide whether—?

Yes, but it's a bit wider than that as well, because you also need the offender to be part of it. For me, it would be better if it was hooked into some conditional cautions. So, where we now have individuals having—. So, that was the bit I meant in relation to changes around the statutory framework for some of this. Where we have seen changes, and we are seeing some developments in that space, actually, and certainly in the Dyfed-Powys area we're hoping to be able to push the boundaries in relation to some of these conditional cautions or diversionary schemes—. So, if it's their first time offending and there is an admission of guilt by the individual, wanting to change their behaviour, that they can go through. So, sorry to be perhaps a little bit unclear in my answer. It isn't just about the funding. The funding is an element of it, but it's the wider statutory landscape that we have. Perhaps Amanda could come in and give a more articulate response. 

All right. Emma's hand was up first, and then I'll come to Amanda.

Thank you, Chair. It's just to build on what the commissioner has said. So, through the VAWDASV blueprint work and the perpetrator work stream, that's going to be very much a focus of activity, which is about how do we develop better referral mechanisms and response into a menu of perpetrator programmes—so, those from demonstrating very early harmful behaviours all the way through to some of the high-harm behaviour that we see coming through the court system and on statutory services. Just to say, that piece of work and that thinking is under way, and of course funding, as well as those referral mechanisms in terms of the design of the system, will play a role.

In south Wales, just to answer the question in terms of referrals, through those early help hubs and identifying vulnerability and early signs of harm and abuse in that space, those early help hubs refer into local programmes and services. You'll know, across the south Wales footprint, we have the Drive programme, which is very much focused on the high-harm perpetrator end, but again policing is very linked in as part of one of the referral pathways that would pick up support for the perpetrators on that caseload.

And lastly, again building on the point the commissioner made around pre-court diversion, the forces across Wales have done a lot of work in terms of diversionary interventions for those offences that are only likely to carry very low-level penalties where we know actually better outcomes could be had by diverting somebody into a programme of support. So, at the moment, we're exploring a programme called CARA, Cautioning and Relationship Abuse, which is very much in response to domestic abuse, and looking to see if we can give some thought as to how we intervene and implement at that earlier point upstream of the system. 

Amanda.

Thank you, yes. So, just to build again, I think Emma's approach in terms of working at it from a blueprint approach is really important, because it's about understanding those earlier points that we can really dock into. None of this is statutory, it's all voluntary in terms of a perpetrator. So, from that point of view, it's very much down to the engagement level that individual has.

I think it's really important that it's linked in, especially in the custody space, to the use of drug testing on arrest and around the use of alcohol, because some of those are clearly accelerating factors in relation to domestic abuse incidents. So, from that point of view, I think it's really important that we have the opportunity to be able to refer in. And the commissioners across Wales are all looking at and are participating in commissioned services around perpetrator programmes. But, again, it's that expertise to be able to push a perpetrator into a programme that is going to provide an opportunity for them to be able to change. And I'm not clear what the evidence base is at the moment around it. And it's clear from a victim point of view as well that there isn't the confidence that it is actually making that change.

So, there's a lot of work to do here moving potentially from a non-statutory to a statutory footing, looking at those areas, those drivers that we see around alcohol, around drug use, and how good the service is that we're able to put people into to allow them to be able to effect change in terms of their behaviour. But I think the way through it is through the blueprint approach and us really gaining an evidence base and being able to invest in what works for our communities. 

Definitely. There is that absolute intention. Because I hear what you're saying, and the Drive programme is able to provide those specifics in terms of that documentation that they've, clearly, given to you. But there are a number of perpetrator programmes out there, and to invest the public's money wisely into preventing domestic abuse and to be able to make sure that those individuals who are perpetrating these offences are being signposted in and not taking an option to signpost themselves into drug and alcohol and not a domestic abuse service, that's where it's really important. Because we do know that we have a low take-up in relation to some perpetrator services as well, and we're not able to mandate that those attend, but, clearly, it is an easier concept for a person, isn't it, to suggest that there's a problem with drug or alcohol use, rather than there's a problem with domestic abuse.

So, I would want to make sure that the services that we commission across Wales have got that evidence base, that there are those professionals out there that can support and help and make sure that a perpetrator is able to challenge their behaviour and stop what they're doing, but I'm not clear in my own mind that is available across the piste at the moment, because there are a number of different agencies out there. So, an evaluation is really important.

I'll answer that one, if that's okay. So, you are absolutely right, bystander activity is an easy thing to say and a really complex thing to enact in terms of community and in terms of services as well. You heard me speak earlier about some of the bystander/upstander behaviour that we have looked to train door staff in relation to, and some of that involves making sure that that safety is in place in terms of themselves. It is really challenging, it's really difficult. I know from my own experiences in terms of some of the stuff that we're driving in terms of change here at north Wales, where I'm asking staff to be upstanders, you've got to create the right environment for people to feel supported to be able to do that. So, it isn't a one-size-fits-all in terms of upstanders, and we've got to make sure that the programmes of work that we develop understand the environments that people are working in, understand the risks that are there and understand the safe mechanisms by which people can be an upstander, perhaps in a more covert way and perhaps in a way that allows us to be able to step in and support. So, I absolutely accept what you're saying, and I think there's a real risk there, yes.

If I may, the College of Policing, we've worked along a programme of work called Know the Line. I'm not able to answer whether the College of Policing are looking at that in a broader sense and where the Government sits on that. I can, Sioned, if you would like me to, find that out. We can write to you independently in relation to that.

Okay, fine, thank you. Dafydd, very quickly, before I bring in Sarah Murphy.

Yes, of course. Very quickly, then. I was going to repeat something Emma said earlier, really, around the next phase of the violence against women and girls blueprint activity is that we have a really robust comms strategy aligned to it. I think the bystander element of it needs to be clear as well, so that we know what we're telling the public and that that's consistent, as well, because, at the moment, I would argue that perhaps we're not very much on the front foot in relation to the comms activity. It was certainly something that we raised in our administrative board last week and we're looking to improve that over the next period then, the coming months.

Okay, thank you. Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much. I'm going to ask some questions now about senior leadership in the police, and, as we are overrunning, I'm going to get straight into it. Senior police leadership is key to making cultural changes inside the police service. What assurances can you give the committee that the Welsh police forces have robust and updated policies in place to ensure that there’s a clear stance on gender-based violence, and, specifically, police perpetrators?

I think that's probably very much one for me to answer, isn't it, Sarah? So, thank you very much for the question, and I could probably talk for a good hour and a half in relation to this one. I'll get briefly and succinctly to the points. We've done a huge amount of work in terms of our professional standards department, from vetting right through in relation to reviewing every single case that we've had that's come through over the last few years; we're reaching back further in relation to that for people that are still serving. We've put every member of our service, be they police officer or police staff through the police national database to make sure that there's nothing out there in terms of intelligence that we haven't been aware of in terms of vetting. We've enacted the College of Policing's vetting guidance. We've done a huge amount in terms of training, upskilling and expectation and standards setting in relation to our staff. We've had a number of dismissals from the service. We've had a number of people who have had their vetting removed from the service. So, in terms of activity and work ongoing, it is huge.

In terms of understanding the culture of policing, the environments that our staff work in and what we need to do to enact those, I know all of the four forces across Wales are looking at cultural audits in order to be able to understand that and to understand the very bespoke activity that they need to put in place in order to be able to make sure that we provide safe, happy, inclusive environments for our staff to work in and that we can attract the very best talent out there so that we're able to really support our communities in their hour of need, which is the time that they call us.

I've bullet-pointed very briefly, Sarah, but I can give more detail if you want to ask me anything specifically.

Thank you very much. That is very reassuring to hear, and you've also answered a number of my other questions at the same time, which is very helpful. I did just want to ask as well: with all of these cases in the media, though, and public trust has been damaged, and, especially, I suppose, for people who are experiencing or at risk of gender-based violence, what is being done as well to build relationships with those people who may be the most vulnerable in our communities?

So, absolutely, and I very much appreciate that the damage that is done by every single one of those media reports. I'd also like to think that our stance in relation to it reassures our community that actually we're serious about this, we're tackling it, there is no room for those individuals in policing. We have a very clear set of values; if people do not uphold those, policing is no police for them to operate.

I know, because we do a number of surveys in relation to our public across Wales, that actually our public confidence is quite high here in north Wales. I know that 86 per cent of those who were asked in our latest survey had confidence in policing, so whilst we hear and we see the media reports, and we hear the situation around public confidence, we also need to focus on what's happening locally and how our public feel. We also look at speaking to our female residents here in north Wales, and I know their confidence levels are high in relation to our officers and staff.

What I would say is that 99.9 per cent of my officers and staff here are doing a great job every day, are dealing with really chaotic sets of circumstances without the full facts in front of them and are doing the best thing that they can possibly can, making good decisions for our public, and I wouldn't want that to be missed as we are talking about the very right and very serious matter of tackling those who should have no place in policing, and I think we're doing that.

Thank you very much. I'm going to ask my last question, and then—

I think Dafydd wanted to come in, so hang on a second. Dafydd.

Sorry. Yes, apologies, Sarah. You've got one other question; I could have perhaps come in at the end. I just wanted to highlight, actually, that there's a role here for police and crime commissioners. So, we are there to hold the forces to account from a leadership point of view, we're there to scrutinise the work. So, what Amanda talks about, things like the data wash, where we've done a lot of more intrusive vetting, I've put my office through that vetting, I've put my own name through the data wash, for example, and I think showing that leadership is really, really important.

And then, just building on what Amanda said around the confidence, there's something about trying to counter some of the narrative from a Welsh perspective, or at least give a flavour of the Welsh perspective on this, and I think being open and transparent about what we are uncovering and then being open and sharing that with the public might be challenging at times, but something that we need to do.

And for example, in the September cut of the Office for National Statistics crime survey of England and Wales, when asked the question, 'Do your force do a good or excellent job in your community?' Dyfed-Powys Police had a 66 per cent confidence level and we're the highest in terms of the whole forces across England and Wales. There are some good news stories in there, as well as the need to be open and honest about some of the negative things that we're dealing with, and perhaps changing some of that narrative comes back to the sort of comms element that I've been consistent about mentioning today. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I'll ask my last question then: to what extent are senior police leaders involved in revising the national VAWDASV indicators and reviewing progress in the implementation of the national training framework? They're both requirements of the VAWDASV Wales Act; is that something that you find that senior police leadership are involved with?

I can answer this one. The short answer is, 'yes'. I link directly in with deputy chief constable Maggie Blyth, who leads for us nationally as part of the National Police Chiefs' Council. It is quite often on our agenda items when we meet nationally. We are very actively involved in that work. I know that deputy chief constable Maggie Blyth has been to Wales to look at the blueprint approach and to pick up some of the best practice there and has spoken at a number of our conferences, et cetera. But we are actively involved in that piece of work, as it moves forward.

Thank you very much. That's all my questions. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. I think, finally from me, were one of your officers to be accused of gender-based violence—that doesn't mean to say they're guilty—what is your procedure for dealing with a complaint of that nature from a serving officer? I don't know whether this is something for Dafydd or for Amanda.

I can pick that up, if that's okay. We have a very clear set of requirements by virtue of the police regulations, and also in terms of any criminal conduct. So, we assess it in relation to criminal conduct at first and alongside that, the police conduct regulations. If the matter is a serious matter in terms of criminal conduct, then we'll make an assessment in terms of where that sits in terms of severity, and there will be a discussion then as to whether or not that officer is suspended or not. There is some very clear guidance in the police conduct regulations that identifies when consideration should be given to suspension. We also refer the matter to the Independent Office for Police Conduct. We will look at whether an outside agency organisation service should investigate that matter.

If it's not being investigated by the IOPC, we have developed and I think added to our service in relation to being able to provide that ongoing independent domestic violence adviser support to victims. The Police Federation of England & Wales will support the individual who has an accusation made in relation to them, and we'll go through a process then of, if it's a criminal matter, following the track that we would do for anybody else in relation to a criminal matter. If it is not a criminal matter, and has been, for instance, subject to no further action or has been dealt with, then there are a number of courses that it follows under the police conduct regulations. Does that answer the question, Chair?

Yes, I think so, but Jane Dodds has put her hand up.

Just a real quickie, just so I totally understand: so, if there's an allegation made, they are not automatically suspended—is it 'yes' or 'no'?

No, but you have to go through the police conduct regulations and there are some specifics to look at to make sure that somebody is suspended—that is, is there a criminal matter? Would there be an interference with any of the witnesses/victims, and, you know, et cetera, et cetera? And if the answer to that is, 'yes', and you end up with a suspension, that's where that sits, but we need to assess those things first.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your attendance today. We'll send you a transcript, in which, obviously, I'd be keen to ensue that we've captured your evidence accurately, and please amend it if we haven't. And otherwise, there may be one or two things we'd just want to write to you about that we haven't had time to look at the detail on around whether something is particular to one area or is something that is happening all over Wales. But thank you very much for an interesting session and we hope you find it useful as part of your work. Thank you very much indeed.

There are now several papers to note, and I wonder if we can agree to note them or if anybody wishes to say anything before we do. No, I see none. 

Can I now ask if the committee is content to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting under Standing Order 17.42? I see no objection.