Y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg - Y Bumed Senedd

Children, Young People and Education Committee - Fifth Senedd

29/01/2021

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dawn Bowden
Huw Irranca-Davies
Laura Anne Jones
Lynne Neagle Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Sian Gwenllian
Suzy Davies

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Georgina Haarhoff Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director, Curriculum and Assessment, Welsh Government
Kirsty Williams Y Gweinidog Addysg
Minister for Education

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Gareth Pembridge Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Gareth Rogers Clerc
Clerk
Lisa Salkeld Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Llinos Madeley Clerc
Clerk
Rhiannon Lewis Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Yan Thomas Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cynnwys

Contents

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
2. Bil Cwricwlwm ac Asesu (Cymru) – Trafodion Cyfnod 2 2. Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill - Stage 2 proceedings
Grŵp 1: Hanes Cymru yn ei holl amrywiaeth, gan gynnwys Hanes Pobl Dduon a Phobl Groenliw (Gwelliannau 41, 42, 43, 45) Group 1: History of Wales in all of its diversity, including Black and People of Colour History (Amendments 41, 42, 43, 45)
Grŵp 2: Y Gymraeg (Gwelliannau 1, 2, 3, 44, 4, 5, 8) Group 2: The Welsh language (Amendments 1, 2, 3, 44, 4, 5, 8)
Grŵp 3: Sgiliau achub bywyd a chymorth cyntaf (Gwelliannau 50, 52) Group 3: Lifesaving skills and first aid (Amendments 50, 52)
Grŵp 4: Addysg lles mislifol (Gwelliannau 51, 53) Group 4: Menstrual well-being education (Amendments 51, 53)
Grŵp 5: Addysg Cydberthynas a Rhywioldeb (Gwelliannau 54, 56, 58, 59, 60, 61, 66, 70) Group 5: Relationships and Sexuality Education (Amendments 54, 56, 58, 59, 60, 61, 66, 70)
Grŵp 6: Amserlen weithredu (Gwelliannau 55, 57) Group 6: Implementation time frame (Amendments 55, 57)
Grŵp 7: Crefydd, Gwerthoedd a Moeseg (Gwelliannau 85, 86, 15, 87, 88, 16, 17, 89, 18, 19, 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40) Group 7: Religion, Values and Ethics (Amendments 85, 86, 15, 87, 88, 16, 17, 89, 18, 19, 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40)
Grŵp 8: Gweithredu cwricwlwm: Eithriadau (Gwelliannau 62, 63, 64) Group 8: Curriculum implementation: Exceptions (Amendments 62, 63, 64)
Grŵp 9: Addysg heblaw yn yr ysgol (Gwelliannau 65, 67, 68) Group 9: Education otherwise than at school (EOTAS) (Amendments 65, 67, 68)
Grŵp 10: Asesu a chynnydd (Gwelliannau 6, 69) Group 10: Assessment and progression (Amendments 6, 69)
Grŵp 11: Iechyd meddwl a lles emosiynol (Gwelliant 7) Group 11: Mental health and emotional well-being (Amendment 7)
Grŵp 12: Dyletswyddau: Confensiynau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig (Gwelliannau 71, 72) Group 12: Duties: United Nations Conventions (Amendments 71, 72)
Grŵp 13. Darparu gwybodaeth (Gwelliant 73) Group 13: Provision of information (Amendment 73)
Grŵp 14: Dyletswyddau a chanllawiau cyffredinol (Gwelliannau 21, 22, 23, 24, 74, 75, 76, 46, 77, 78) Group 14: General duties and guidance (Amendments 21, 22, 23, 24, 74, 75, 76, 46, 77, 78)
Grŵp 15: Plant a phersonau ifanc sydd wedi eu cadw (Gwelliant 25) Group 15: Detained children and young persons (Amendment 25)
Grŵp 16: Adrodd (Gwelliant 79) Group 16: Reporting (Amendment 79)
Grŵp 17: Cyffredinol (gan gynnwys diffiniadau a gweithdrefnau deddfwriaethol ar gyfer Codau a Rheoliadau) (Gwelliannau 80, 81, 9, 82, 10, 11, 12, 47, 48, 13, 49, 83, 84, 14) Group 17: General (including definitions and legislative procedures for Codes and Regulations) (Amendments 80, 81, 9, 82, 10, 11, 12, 47, 48, 13, 49, 83, 84, 14)

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:33.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:33. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for the meeting, published on Tuesday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind everyone that the microphones will be controlled centrally? There's no need to turn them on or off individually. Please just accept the prompt of unmute from the sound engineer every time you're called to speak. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David, and I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies MS, who is substituting for Hefin today. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. 

2. Bil Cwricwlwm ac Asesu (Cymru) – Trafodion Cyfnod 2
2. Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill - Stage 2 proceedings

We'll go on now, then, to item 2, and our substantive item today, which is Stage 2 proceedings for the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams MS, Minister for Education, and Georgina Haarhoff, deputy director, curriculum and assessment. Thank you, both, for joining us. I'm just going to run through how it's all going to work this morning and then we'll go on to the first group. 

The purpose of the meeting is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill. In relation to this item, Members should have before them the marshalled list of amendments and the grouping of the amendments for debate. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order agreed by the committee. So, for this meeting, the order in which we will consider amendments is outlined on the agenda. You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate. However, the order in which amendments are called and moved for a decision is dictated by the marshalled list. I will advise Members when I call them whether they are being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate this to me in the usual way by raising their hand at the appropriate point in proceedings, and I'll call the Minister to speak on each group. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair, I will move amendments in the name of the Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Minister wishes me to move all her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Minister, if you don't want a particular amendment to be moved, please can you indicate this at the relevant point in proceedings?

In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members or the Minister wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please let the clerks know via a message, and I will call an adjournment.

As this is a virtual meeting, all votes will be undertaken through roll-call, as agreed. I'll call each Member in alphabetical order and invite you to state whether you wish to vote in favour or against the amendment, or to abstain. I will state my own vote and declare the result. If there is a tie, I will exercise the Chair's casting vote in accordance with Standing Orders. My intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today’s meeting. However, we have scheduled time to reconvene a week today on Friday 5 February, if necessary. I will call short breaks in proceedings at appropriate times throughout the meeting, including lunch.

09:35
Grŵp 1: Hanes Cymru yn ei holl amrywiaeth, gan gynnwys Hanes Pobl Dduon a Phobl Groenliw (Gwelliannau 41, 42, 43, 45)
Group 1: History of Wales in all of its diversity, including Black and People of Colour History (Amendments 41, 42, 43, 45)

So, we'll go on now then to group 1. Group 1 relates to the history of Wales in all of its diversity, including black and people of colour history. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 41, in the name of Siân Gwenllian. I call Siân Gwenllian to move amendment 41 and to speak to her amendments in this group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 41 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 41 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd, a gair i gychwyn i egluro mod i wedi penderfynu canolbwyntio ar ddau fater sydd angen eu cryfhau yn sylweddol yn y Bil hwn. Os caf i, Cadeirydd, dwi am dreulio ychydig o amser y peth cyntaf bore yma yn amlinellu fy safbwynt. Mae fy nghyfraniadau i'r drafodaeth ar rannau eraill o'r Bil yn fyr iawn. Yn anffodus, dim ond un aelod o Blaid Cymru sydd ar y pwyllgor yma, ac roedd yn ddoeth felly canolbwyntio ar ddwy agwedd benodol. Felly, mae fy ngwelliannau i'n ymwneud â hanes Cymru a'r iaith Gymraeg. Heb y gwelliannau yr wyf i yn eu cynnig heddiw, ni fydd modd rhoi cysondeb a sicrwydd y bydd bob plentyn yng Nghymru yn cael y profiad o ddysgu am hanes cyfoethog ac amrywiol ein gwlad ni, a heb y gwelliannau o gwmpas dysgu'r Gymraeg yn ein hysgolion, a fyddai'n sicrhau llawer mwy o fanylder, heb hynny fydd dim modd rhoi cysondeb a sicrwydd y bydd bob plentyn yn cael cyfle cyfartal i gaffael iaith ein gwlad. 

Mae'r pwyllgor yn ei adroddiad wedi nodi bod angen i'r Llywodraeth daro'r cydbwysedd cywir rhwng hyblygrwydd lleol a chysondeb cenedlaethol. Mi fyddai pasio gwelliannau Plaid Cymru yn sicrhau hynny mewn dau faes, yn sicrhau cysondeb cenedlaethol. Rydyn ni'n cytuno'n frwd efo penderfyniad y Gweinidog i roi addysg cydberthynas a rhywioldeb ar wyneb y Bil er mwyn helpu creu newid systemig, pellgyrhaeddol sy'n treiddio trwy gymdeithas. Rydyn ni'n teimlo bod rhaid rhoi statws penodol i rai meysydd ar wyneb y Bil, ac mi fyddai pasio fy ngwelliannau i yn sicrhau'r un statws a'r un sylw i ddau faes arall.

Thank you very much, Chair, and may I first of all explain that I have decided to focus on two issues that need to be significantly strengthened in this Bill. If I may, Chair, I do want to spend a little time first of all this morning outlining my views. My contribution to the debate on other parts of the Bill will be very brief. Unfortunately, there is only Plaid Cymru Member on this committee, and it was wise therefore to focus on two specific aspects of the Bill. So, my amendments relate to the history of Wales and the Welsh language. Without the amendments that I will be moving today, it will not be possible to provide consistency and assurance that all children in Wales will have the experience of learning about the rich and varied history of our nation, and without the amendments around the teaching of Welsh in our schools, which would provide far greater clarity, without those it will not be possible to provide consistency and assurance that all children will have an equal opportunity to acquire the language of our nation. 

The committee in its report has noted that the Government needs to strike the right balance between local flexibility and consistency on a national level. Passing the Plaid Cymru amendments would ensure that in two specific areas—it would ensure consistency on a national level. We agree entirely with the Minister's decision to put relationships and sexuality education on the face of the Bill in order to create systemic, far-reaching changes that permeate throughout society. We believe that specific status should also be given to certain areas on the face of the Bill, and passing my amendments would secure the same status to two other areas.

Mae'r set gyntaf o welliannau yn cynnwys sawl opsiwn i wneud yr un peth o gwmpas hanes Cymru, a dwi'n agored iawn i dderbyn eich barn am ba un neu ddau o'r rhain fyddai'n cyrraedd y nod orau. Does dim angen eu cynnwys nhw i gyd, yn amlwg. Bwriad y set yma o welliannau ydy sicrhau bod pobl Cymru yn gwybod am ein gorffennol fel pobl, am ein gorffennol fel gwlad, a hynny yn ei holl amrywiaeth cyfoethog. Mae yna gyfnodau allweddol yn hanes Cymru pan fu datblygiadau a oedd yn ganolog wrth ffurfio hunaniaeth Cymru, a bydd dysgu am ddigwyddiadau allweddol yn caniatáu i bob disgybl ddeall sut cafodd ein gwlad ei llunio gan ddigwyddiadau lleol a chenedlaethol o fewn y cyd-destun ehangach byd-eang.

Bydd sicrhau bod pob disgybl yng Nghymru yn cael dysgu am ddigwyddiadau hanesyddol allweddol o arwyddocâd cenedlaethol yn eu helpu nhw i ddod yn ddinasyddion gwybodus gyda gwybodaeth ddiwylliannol a gwleidyddol hanfodol. Bydd y dull presennol sy'n cael ei ddilyn gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn y Bil yma yn golygu y bydd dysgwyr ledled Cymru yn cael profiadau gwahanol iawn o ddysgu am hanes Cymru, tra byddai sefydlu corff cyffredin o wybodaeth hanes Cymru, gan gynnwys hanesion pobl dduon a phobl o liw, fel elfen orfodol, yn sicrhau cysondeb o ran addysgu ar draws ysgolion Cymru, gan osgoi anghysondeb posib ac addysgu hanes tameidiog ledled y wlad. Mi fyddai'r gwelliannau hefyd yn sicrhau mynediad cyfartal i addysg hanes, sy'n hollol hanfodol i sicrhau cydraddoldeb addysg ar draws Cymru.

Mi fyddai cael corff cyffredin o wybodaeth am hanes Cymru fel rhan orfodol o'r cwricwlwm yn sicrhau bod disgyblion yn dysgu am hanes amrywiol Cymru—hanes sydd wedi ei ddiystyru yn hanesyddol, gyda goblygiadau negyddol eang i hynny. Ac er mwyn helpu mynd i'r afael ag anghyfiawnderau strwythurol a hiliaeth a hyrwyddo amrywiaeth hiliol a diwylliannol, rhaid gwarantu addysg i bob disgybl ar hanes pobl dduon a phobl o liw. Drwy sicrhau bod gan hanes Cymru sylfaen statudol yn y Bil, fe allwn ni sicrhau bod athrawon yn gallu cael gafael ar wybodaeth angenrheidiol am hanes Cymru, gan ddarparu canllawiau angenrheidiol a defnyddiol i gefnogi athrawon a meithrin eu hyder mewn addysgu pynciau a allai fod yn gymhleth, yn anghyfarwydd, ond eto yn hanfodol, yn union fel gydag addysg cydberthynas a rhywioldeb.

Does yna ddim sicrwydd y bydd hanesion hollbwysig, megis hanes yr iaith Gymraeg, hanes crefydd, hanes y gymuned LGBTQ+ yn cael eu dysgu yn y cwricwlwm chwaith. Tra bod gan RSE ac RVE statws mandadol yn y Bil, does yna ddim sicrwydd y bydd hanes rhywioldeb yng Nghymru yn rhan o'r profiad dysgu, ac mae angen i blant ddysgu am hanes grwpiau sydd wedi dioddef ac wedi cael eu diystyru drwy gydol ein hanes.

Mae angen newid strwythurol mawr, ac yn union fel y mae angen dysgu am berthnasoedd iach fel thema drawsgwricwlaidd, er mwyn creu newid o fewn ein cymdeithas ni ac er mwyn creu'r newid hynny yn y berthynas rhwng menywod a dynion, mae angen hefyd ddyrchafu hunaniaeth ac amrywiaeth Cymru i fod yn thema addysgol drawsgwricwlaidd sy'n haeddu'r un statws a chysondeb â pherthnasoedd iach ac addysg rhyw. 

Felly, i grynhoi, Cadeirydd, pwrpas ein gwelliannau ni yn yr adran yma ydy sicrhau cysondeb a mynediad cyfartal i addysg hanes ar draws Cymru er mwyn helpu mynd i'r afael ag anghyfiawnder strwythurol hanesyddol ac i helpu amrywiaeth o ran hil, diwylliant a rhywioldeb. A'r bwriad ydy sicrhau bod gan ein stori genedlaethol statws haeddiannol yn y cwricwlwm a'i bod yn sail i blant ddysgu am eu hanes er mwyn cefnogi diben y cwricwlwm, sef datblygu dinasyddion Cymreig gwybodus ac ymgysylltiedig. Felly, dwi'n symud y gwelliannau.

The first set of amendments includes a number of options to do the same thing around the history of Wales, and I'm very keen to hear your views as to which one or two of these would best achieve our aim. We don't need to include them all, clearly. The intention of this set of amendments is to ensure that the people of Wales are aware of our past as a people, of our history as a nation, in all its rich diversity. There are key periods in the history of Wales when developments that were central in the formulation of Welsh identity took place, and learning about these key events will allow every pupil to understand how our nation was brought together by local and national events within the broader global context.

Ensuring that all pupils in Wales learn about key historic events of national significance will help them to become informed citizens, with crucial cultural and political knowledge. The current approach followed by the Welsh Government in this Bill will mean that learners the length and breadth of Wales will have very different experiences of learning about Welsh history, whilst establishing a common body of knowledge on Welsh history, including black and people of colour history, as a mandatory element, would ensure consistency in terms of educating across schools in Wales, avoiding possible inconsistencies and a patchy approach to the teaching of history across the country. These amendments, too, would ensure equal access to history education, which is crucial in ensuring equality of education across Wales.

Having a common body of knowledge on the history of Wales as a mandatory part of the curriculum would ensure that pupils learn about the varied and diverse history of Wales, which has in the past been ignored, with broad-reaching negative implications. And in order to assist in tackling structural inequalities and racism and to promote racial and cultural diversity, we must secure an education for all pupils on black and people of colour history. By ensuring that Welsh history has a statutory basis in the Bill, we can ensure that teachers can access the necessary information about Welsh history, providing the necessary guidance in order to support teachers and to nurture their confidence in teaching issues that could be complex, unfamiliar, but crucial, just as is the case with relationships and sexuality education.

There is no assurance that crucial histories, such as the history of the Welsh language, the history of religion, the history of the LGBTQ+ community, will be taught in the curriculum either. While RSE and RVE do have mandatory status within the Bill, there is no assurance that the history of sexuality in Wales will be part of the learning experience, and children need to learn about the history of groups that have suffered and have been ignored throughout our history.

We need great structural change, and just as we need to talk about healthy relationships as a cross-curricular theme in order to create change within our society and in order to create that change in the relationship between women and men, we also need to promote the identity and diversity of Wales to be a cross-curricular educational theme that deserves the same status and consistency as relationship and sexuality education.

So, to conclude, Chair, the purpose of our amendments in this section is to secure consistency and equal access to education on history across Wales in order to tackle structural inequality and to promote diversity in terms of race, culture and sexuality. And the intention is to ensure that our national story has its proper status in the curriculum and is a foundation for children to learn about their history in order to support the purpose of the curriculum, namely to develop Welsh citizens who are informed and engaged. So, I move the amendments.

09:45

Thank you, Siân. Are there any other Members who would like to speak? No. Can I call on the Minister, then, to speak?

Thank you very much. Bore da, Cadeirydd, bore da, pawb. I'm grateful for the attention on the Bill this morning. Can I just say that the issues that Siân Gwenllian just talked about are incredibly important? So important, of course, that we have appointed Professor Charlotte Williams to provide very specific advice to the Welsh Government about how issues of history, particularly black, Asian and minority ethnic history, can be successfully incorporated into our curriculum. I have to say, Professor Charlotte Williams was very clear—and I know that the Member herself has met with the professor—that simply listing mandatory content is not going to achieve the goals that I want or, indeed, Professor Williams wants.

Let me be absolutely clear what the legislation before us does with regard to the teaching of Welsh history and, indeed, the teaching of black, Asian and minority ethnic history. Through statutory guidance, these areas of the curriculum will indeed be mandatory. I want to make that absolutely clear, because that has not been acknowledged by the Member in the opening debate today. They will be mandatory. There is no getting away from it or escaping from it. There will be a legal duty on all schools across Wales to deliver this content. Through statutory guidance, diversity will also be embedded not within a single aspect of learning within history and the area of learning and experience of humanities, but diversity will be embedded throughout the curriculum in every area of learning and experience.

And can I say to the Member that the way in which she has described her concerns—that there should be a single body of historical knowledge that is common to everybody—that is simply not achieved by the Member's amendments here this morning by simply listing that topic on the face of the Bill? Actually, what the Member wants, and, indeed, I agree with, we are much more likely to be able to deliver through the 'what matters' approach that we have adopted, which gives us the opportunity to spell out in more detail the specific elements that the Member has just talked about.

Amendment 41 as it currently stands, the aim of which, as I said, is already covered as those subjects will be mandatory in the 'what matters' code. With regard to amendment 42, again, these issues will be covered in the statutory 'what matters' code. I think what's really important to recognise about that code is that that code has not been dreamt up by me; that code is the product of years—not days, not months, but years—of co-construction with those professionals who will be required to deliver it. And undermining that, I think, goes against what I know the Member believes in, which is a trust in our teaching profession. It is the teaching profession that has got us to this point and it is trust in the teaching profession to use the curriculum legislation that we have before us today and the 'what matters' code to deliver for children.

The actual consequence of the Member's amendment, as suggested, would actually limit, I believe, the study of these subjects to history within the humanities code. And, again, Professor Williams is absolutely clear that, for too long, the experience of black, Asian and minority ethnic communities in Wales has been limited to history—it has been limited to the subject of history and predominantly, actually, the topic of slavery. What Professor Williams is striving to achieve is that the contribution of those communities is recognised not just in humanities, but is recognised in literacy and communication. It's recognised in creativity and the creative arts. It's recognised in science and technology. It's recognised in maths and numeracy. So, actually—and it's unintended from the Member; I absolutely understand that—we are in danger of confining the contribution of Wales to a single subject. I want to ensure, and I have ensured via the 'what matters' code, that these areas will be covered right the way across our curriculum. Therefore, I ask Members to reject the amendments. Thank you.

09:50

Thank you, Minister. I call Siân to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch, Weinidog. Dwi'n falch eich bod chi'n hyderus y bydd yr hyn dwi'n dymuno ei weld—a chynifer o bobl yn dymuno ei weld—yn digwydd yn sgil y cwricwlwm. Ond, i mi gael yr hyder y bydd o'n digwydd, dwi angen ei weld o ar wyneb y Bil. Yn union yr un un ddadl sydd dros gynnwys cydberthynas a rhywioldeb ar wyneb y Bil; hynny yw, er mwyn i bwnc sydd yn gallu bod yn anodd, sydd yn gallu bod heb ddigon o adnoddau yn ei gylch o, er mwyn iddo fo ddigwydd yn hollol gyson ar draws ein hysgolion ni. Felly, yn union yr un un dadleuon sydd yna dros gynnwys mater a allai arwain at newidiadau mawr o fewn yn ein cymdeithas ni ar wyneb y Bil—mae'r un un dadleuon yn wir.

Rydych chi'n sôn am Charlotte Williams a, do, dwi wedi cael sgyrsiau diddorol iawn efo hi. Dydy ei gwaith hi ddim wedi cael ei orffen eto, dwi ddim yn meddwl. Felly, dydyn ni ddim yn hollol glir beth yn union fydd yr argymhellion yn dod drwodd ganddi hi. Dwi yn ymwybodol bod nifer o arbenigwyr yn y maes yn cytuno efo'r safbwynt dwi'n ei gyflwyno heddiw yma. Er enghraifft, dywedodd y Barnwr Ray Singh, cadeirydd Cyngor Hil Cymru, a dwi'n dyfynnu ei eiriau fo yn y Saesneg gwreiddiol:

Thank you very much, and thank you, Minister. I'm pleased that you're confident that what I wish to see—and so many others wish to see—will be delivered as a result of the curriculum. But, for me to have the confidence that that is the case, then I need to see it on the face of the Bill. It's exactly the same argument for including relationships and sexuality education on the face of the Bill; namely, to ensure that an issue that can be difficult, and can be under-resourced at times, so that that is delivered in a consistent way across all of our schools. Therefore, exactly the same arguments that exist for including an issue that could lead to major changes within our society on the face of the Bill—the same arguments hold water here.

Now, you talk about Charlotte Williams and, yes, I've had some very interesting conversations with her. But, her work has not been concluded as of yet—or I don't believe it has, at least—so we're not entirely clear what the recommendations that she will make will be. Now, I am aware that there are a number of experts in the area who agree with the view that I'm espousing today. For example, Judge Ray Singh, the chair of Race Council Cymru, and I quote his words in English:

'I think that [making BAME history a statutory part of the curriculum] will go a long way to helping children, future generations, understand why there should be no discrimination. We have got people living here now who have contributed so much to the well-being of Wales...Those matters are not taught in schools and children don't know that. That will go a long way to help overcome racism.'

Dwi'n troi at Dîm Cymorth Ieuenctid Ethnig Cymru. Mae'r hyn a ddywedon nhw, dwi'n meddwl, yn crisialu yn eithaf clir pam bod hyn angen bod yn statudol ar wyneb y Bil:

I turn to the Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team in Wales. I think what they said encapsulates why this needs to be statutory on the face of the Bill:

'I want the kids who live in the docks...to know about north Wales...as much as I want the people in Harlech...to know about the docks and about the coal industry...because it's about Wales. This is our country, and we need to know the total of how we got here, and, more importantly, how we're going to move forward. And we can only move forward together.'

Dwi'n troi at sylwadau Dr Elin Jones, sydd yn arbenigwr uchel ei pharch sydd wedi gwneud llawer iawn o waith yn y maes yma. Dyma beth mae'r hanesydd Dr Elin Jones yn ei ddweud: 'nid yw Donaldson'—y cwricwlwm newydd—

'yn gosod sylfaen o gwbl i ddysgu hanes Cymru fel y cyfryw. Mae e'n gosod sylfaen i ddysgu'r dyniaethau. Ond rwyf i wedi dysgu'r dyniaethau fy hunan rhyw 40 mlynedd yn ôl ac nid oeddwn i'n ffeindio fy mod i'n gallu llwyddo i gyfleu y pynciau yna'n effeithiol'.

Pan ofynnwyd i Dr Elin Jones a oedd hi'n hyderus y byddai'r cwricwlwm newydd yn caniatáu i hanes gael ei addysgu yn y ffordd y byddai'n dymuno:

'Nid oes dim hyder gyda fi yn hynny o gwbl—dim o gwbl. Rwyf i wedi gweld peth o'r gwaith sydd yn cael ei wneud, ac mae'r athrawon sydd yn gweithio ar y cwricwlwm ar hyn o bryd, a'r gweision sifil sydd gyda nhw—maen nhw'n gwneud eu gorau. Ond heb arweiniad clir a phendant, heb enghreifftiau arfer da, heb dystiolaeth, maen nhw yn y tywyllwch, ac nid wyf i'n gwybod a fyddan nhw damaid callach pan fyddan nhw'n cwpla hwn o ran sut mae dysgu hanes.' 

Mae gen i fwy o ddyfyniadau. Gwnaf orffen—. Dim fi sydd yn dweud hyn, ddim jest fi sydd yn dadlau am hyn. Mae yna garfan gref o bobl yn cefnogi'r hyn rydw i'n ei ddymuno. Dr Steven Thompson o Brifysgol Aberystwyth:

I turn to the comments now of Dr Elin Jones, who is a highly respected expert in this area. This is what historian Dr Elin Jones says: 'Donaldson', the new curriculum,

'doesn't provide a basis for teaching the history of Wales as such. It provides a basis to teach humanities. But I have taught humanities myself about 40 years ago, and I didn't find that I was succeeding to convey those subjects effectively'. 

When Dr Elin Jones was asked whether she was confident that the new curriculum would allow history to be taught in the way that she would wish to see, she said:

'I have no confidence in that at all—none at all. I have seen some of the work that's been done, and the teachers who are working on the curriculum at the moment, and the civil servants with them—they are doing their best. But without clear guidance, and without examples of good practice, and without evidence, they're in the dark, and I don't know whether they'll be any the wiser when they finish this in terms of how to teach history.' 

I have many more quotes, but I will conclude here. Because it's not me that's saying this. It's not just me that's arguing for this. There is a strong group of people supporting what I want to see introduced. Dr Steven Thompson, from Aberystwyth University said: 

'My understanding is that the schools curriculum allows teachers to teach Welsh history but, from our perspective in the Department, they do not seem to be doing so. It seems to us that children across Wales, in English- and Welsh-medium schools, are growing up without any real sense of the history of their own communities and are far more conversant with the history of other countries.'

Dydw i ddim wedi cael fy argyhoeddi y bydd y sefyllfa yn newid, oni bai ein bod ni'n dyrchafu statws dysgu hanes Cymru, yn cynnwys hanes pobl ddu a hanes pobl o liw, i fod ar wyneb y Bil. Dyna'r unig ffordd i ni greu'r newid yna, a dyna'r newid sydd ei angen er mwyn creu y Gymru fodern, gyfoes, amrywiol, gyfoethog ei hanes a'i diwylliant yr ydym i gyd yn deisyfu ei gweld.  

I have not been convinced that the situation will change, unless we promote the status of the teaching of Welsh history, including the black and people of colour history, so that it is on the face of the Bill. That's the only way that we can drive that change, and that is the change that we need to see in order to create the modern, contemporary, diverse, rich Wales, in history and culture, that we all aspire to see. 

09:55

Thank you, Siân. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 41? 

The question is that amendment 41 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. There is an objection. So, I'll therefore take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 41 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 41 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 41: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 41: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 2: Y Gymraeg (Gwelliannau 1, 2, 3, 44, 4, 5, 8)
Group 2: The Welsh language (Amendments 1, 2, 3, 44, 4, 5, 8)

We'll go on now, then, to group 2, on the Welsh language. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the Minister.  

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 1 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 1 in the Minister's name and call on the Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Thank you, Chair. As members of this committee will know, I absolutely recognise and understand the importance of the role of education in achieving the Welsh Government's target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 and this Bill does a great deal to promote the Welsh language. And I'm delighted to be able to respond positively to recommendations that the committee made to make English compulsory from seven to 16, whilst Welsh will remain compulsory from three to 16.

Amendments 1 to 3 have been made following public engagement and recommendations by the committee in Stage 1, recognising in that Stage 1 scrutiny that if English was a mandatory element from three to 16, this potentially caused unintended consequences. The aim here today is to protect, support and promote the Welsh language by removing any perceived barriers to the use of Welsh immersion in schools. To be clear, this set of amendments will allow the practice of Welsh immersion education to continue without any disapplication process. We thus, and appropriately, are seeking to give clear emphasis to Welsh language learning within the new curriculum. I committed to engaging with the debate on the position of English in the Bill in the context of our ambitions for a truly bilingual system and I'm very pleased to lay these amendments. 

My next step now is to deliver this and, as set out in the curriculum implementation plan, to work with our key stakeholders now to develop a Welsh language framework. This will seek to provide particular support for those teaching Welsh language in English-medium schools, which, I acknowledge, is something that we need to do far better. 

I cannot, however, accept amendment 44, for a number of reasons. Primarily, I would not, for one moment, seek to presume to tell Welsh-medium educators how to teach their learners in Welsh-medium schools and I really do not consider it to be necessary. A code will put upon them additional statutory burdens that would not be the same for English-medium teachers teaching English in their schools. Indeed, having a compulsory code that those Welsh teachers in Welsh-medium schools would have to follow, and would be required to follow by law, I believe, would limit their creativity and their agency in a way that their English-teaching colleagues would not be subjected to. I simply do not want to see that happen. I would also add to this that the inclusion of an additional code, again, would begin to undermine the entire philosophy that lies behind our approach to the curriculum.

But, as I said, I do recognise that we need to provide more support and guidance to those teaching Welsh in English-medium schools. That's why we will be taking forward our work with stakeholders to develop a Welsh language framework to ensure that those issues that are of concern to me can be addressed. I believe that this would be within the spirit of the Bill, and would provide additional support that I know Members would be in favour of.

Amendments 4 and 5 remove the powers to disapply English before the age of 7 and those are linked to amendments 1 and 3, and I hope that the committee will also support these amendments, as they directly respond to the committee's recommendations.

Finally, I turn to amendment 8. This places a duty on Welsh Ministers to promote access to, and the availability of, courses of study available through the medium of Welsh. This is intended to replace the current duty on local authorities when devising local curricula for 14 to 16-year-old pupils to promote access to, and the availability of, courses of study through the medium of Welsh—a duty that would cease to apply when the new curriculum framework replaces the local curricula for 14 to 16-year-olds.

Responsibility for curriculum development will rest with schools, and local authorities do not have a role in the new set-up. This potentially creates uncertainty around ensuring Welsh-medium provision for these learners, as each school could decide to reduce their Welsh-medium provision. This amendment will place a new duty on Welsh Ministers to promote access to, and the availability of, courses of study taught through Welsh that lead to a qualification or a set of qualifications under the Qualifications Act 2015. I hope that Members will support that amendment. Thank you, Chair.

10:00

Thank you, Minister. Are there other Members who would like to speak? Siân Gwenllian.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Mi fyddaf i yn cefnogi gwelliannau'r Gweinidog yn y grŵp yma, sy'n ymwneud â'r Gymraeg a'r Saesneg. Ond, mae'n anffodus iawn fod y fath ddarpariaeth a oedd ar wyneb y Bil ar y cychwyn, sydd yn cael ei dileu, gobeithio, gan y gwelliant ynglŷn â throchi—. Mae'n anffodus iawn fod unrhyw Lywodraeth wedi meddwl bod angen y ffasiwn gymal ar wyneb y Bil. Mae'n resyn o beth fod cymaint o amser ac egni wedi cael eu treulio yn ymateb i un saga ar ôl y llall o ran y Gymraeg yn ystod hynt y Bil yma, a hynny dros gyfnod estynedig o amser—o'r Papur Gwyn i'r cymal dadleuol yma yn y Bil drafft.

Rydym ni wedi treulio amser yn esbonio wrth adran addysg y Llywodraeth am egwyddorion cynlluniau ieithyddol cwbl sylfaenol. Y ffaith ydy nad oes yna gae chwarae gwastad rhwng y Gymraeg a'r Saesneg yng Nghymru a bod y Gymraeg angen cefnogaeth benodol oherwydd cyd-destun diwylliannol, demograffig a hanesyddol y dirwedd ieithyddol. Ar adegau, rydyn ni wedi hyd yn oed gorfod esbonio beth ydy addysg drochi, heb sôn am ba mor llwyddiannus y mae hi wedi bod yng Nghymru a pha mor hanfodol y bydd hi eto, a pha mor hanfodol ydy hi er mwyn gwireddu'r union bolisi y mae'r adran addysg i fod yn arwain pawb arall i'w wireddu. Yn anffodus, rydyn ni wedi clywed rhai o'r dadleuon sydd yn dangos diffyg dealltwriaeth yn cael eu hailadrodd eto y bore yma. Ond, wrth gwrs, dwi erioed wedi amau ymrwymiad personol y Gweinidog yn y cyswllt yma, gyda llaw, ond yn amlwg mae yna ryw wendid yn y system yn rhywle sydd yn ein dal ni nôl.

Yr un, mewn gwirionedd, ydy'r dadleuon dros yr angen am god statudol ynghylch dysgu'r Gymraeg ar un continwwm. Mae gwelliannau'r Gweinidog yn diogelu'r statws cwo ac yn sicrhau nad ydy'r Bil yn creu sefyllfa wyrdroëdig, lle bo'r Saesneg yn dod yn iaith normadol y system addysg yng Nghymru a'r Gymraeg yn rhywbeth mae'n rhaid optio i mewn iddi, fel eithriad i'r rhai ffodus. Felly, yn amlwg, mae eisiau cefnogi gwelliannau'r Gweinidog yn hynny o beth. Ond dwi'n credu ein bod ni hefyd yn gytûn bod gweledigaeth Donaldson a gweledigaeth y Gweinidog ei hun a ninnau fel aelodau o'r pwyllgor yma o bob plaid yn llawer amgenach na chario ymlaen efo'r statws cwo, ac, yn wir, mae angen gweddnewid y sefyllfa. Mae'n gweledigaeth ni'n ymwneud â chael y Gymraeg yn iaith i bawb yng Nghymru, ac nid dim ond y rhai ffodus yn unig.

Thank you, Chair. I will be supporting the Minister's amendments in this group, which relate to the Welsh and English languages. But, it is very unfortunate that the provision initially on the face of the Bill, which is to be deleted, hopefully, by the amendment on immersion education—. It is very unfortunate that any Government had thought that such a clause should be included on the face of the Bill. It's regrettable that so much time and energy was spent in responding to one saga after another in terms of the Welsh language during the passage of this Bill, over an extended period of time—from the White Paper to this contentious clause in the draft Bill.

We've spent time explaining to the Government's education department the fundamental principles of language planning. The fact is that there is no level playing field between the Welsh language and the English language in Wales and that the Welsh language needs specific support because of the cultural, historical and demographic context of the linguistic landscape here. At times, we've even had to explain what immersion education means, never mind how successful it has been in Wales and how crucial it will be, and how crucial it is in delivering the very policy that the education department is supposed to be leading on. Unfortunately, we've heard some arguments that show a lack of understanding repeated again this morning. But, of course, I've never doubted the personal commitment of the Minister in this context, by the way, but clearly there is some weakness in the system somewhere that is holding us back.

The same are the arguments for a statutory code for the teaching of Welsh on a single continuum. The Minister's amendments safeguard the status quo and ensure that the Bill doesn't create a perverse situation, where the English language becomes the normative language in the Welsh education system and Welsh has to be opted into, as an exception for the fortunate ones. So, clearly, we need to support the Minister's amendments in that regard. But I do believe that we are also agreed that the Donaldson vision and the Minister's own vision and our vision as a committee goes further than simply continuing with the status quo, and, indeed, we need to transform the situation. Our vision relates to seeing the Welsh as language as a language for all the people of Wales, not just for those fortunate ones.

Mae'r cwricwlwm yn gyfle ac yn gerbyd i wneud mwy na chydnabod; mae yna gyfle yn fan hyn i wireddu, a thrwy symud ymlaen efo'r cymalau, y gwelliannau, ynglŷn â chael cod penodol mae modd gwireddu'r hyn rydym ni am ei weld yn digwydd a'r hyn y mae strategaethau'r Llywodraeth yn gweld yn digwydd.

Realiti'r sefyllfa ydy nad ydy'r Bil a'r cwricwlwm fel y mae o yn creu un continwwm dysgu Cymraeg; mae o'n ailgreu ac yn ailwreiddio sefyllfa sy'n methu, drwy greu dau gontinwwm wedi'u brandio fel un, drwy osod disgwyliadau gwahaniaethol ar ddisgyblion ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg a chyfrwng Saesneg heb unrhyw fan amlwg lle mae'r ddau lwybr yn cwrdd yn y canol ar y daith tuag at 2050. Dwy system gyfochrog sydd gennym ni a hyn fydd gennym ni os na fydd y Bil yn cael ei wella ac yn cael ei basio heb ei wella.

Ac nid jest fi sy'n dweud hyn. Eto, dwi'n tynnu'ch sylw chi at yr hyn y mae llu o fudiadau iaith wedi'i ddweud. Mae Aled Roberts, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, yn dweud bod fframwaith y cwricwlwm newydd i Gymru eisoes yn awgrymu, yn ôl y Gweinidog, fod yna ddigon o fanylder a chyfarwyddyd o safbwynt addysgu'r Gymraeg, ond mae Aled Roberts yn ei dweud, 'Rwyf yn anghytuno â hyn ac nid wyf o'r farn bod fframwaith cyffredinol y cwricwlwm am symbylu'r newidiadau sy'n angenrheidiol er mwyn cyflawni un o dargedau allweddol Cymraeg 2050, sef y bydd 50 y cant o ddisgyblion y sector cyfrwng Saesneg yn gadael yr ysgol yn siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Rwyf yn pryderu bod y cwricwlwm newydd, i bob pwrpas, yn ailadrodd methiannau'r gorffennol ac yn parhau â'r drefn bresennol o gael dau lwybr addysgu'r Gymraeg i ddisgyblion Cymru, a hynny o dan len cysyniad y continwwm ieithyddol.'

Mae'r Gweinidog yn dweud y byddai hi'n hoffi gweld lle mae pobl angen mwy o fanylder, ac mae'r achos clir ar sail dystiolaeth wedi cael ei ddarparu i'r pwyllgor a'r Llywodraeth gan Aled Roberts yn ddiweddar iawn yn sgil yr alwad yna. Mae'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddarparu gan y comisiynydd yn dangos mewn ffordd ymarferol sut y byddai cod yn ychwanegu gwerth ac yn rhagori ar yr hyn sydd wedi'i gynnwys eisoes ym maes dysgu a phrofiad. Mae'n rhoi diwedd hefyd ar y ddadl ddiflas y bydd cyfle eto maes o law i roi sylw i'r maes polisi hwn neu llall.

Dwi'n mynd i roi'r gair olaf i'r comisiynydd drwy erfyn ar y pwyllgor i gefnogi'r gwelliannau rydym ni wedi'u rhoi gerbron. Dyma eiriau Aled Roberts: 'Mae'n gwbl amlwg i mi mai cwricwlwm cenedlaethol Cymru yw'r cerbyd ar gyfer gyrru'r holl broses yn ei flaen. Os bydd y cwricwlwm yn gosod disgwyliadau clir a phendant, bydd gweddill y gyfundrefn addysg yn dilyn ac yn ymaddasu. Oni fydd y cwricwlwm yn arwain ar hyn, y tebygolrwydd yw y bydd diffygion o safbwynt sgiliau athrawon, o ran capasiti ysgolion, o ran cymwysterau ac adnoddau, yn arwain at gylch diddiwedd fydd yn parhau i lesteirio gwelliant yn sgiliau Cymraeg disgyblion Cymru.'

The curriculum is an opportunity and a vehicle to do more than simply acknowledge; there is an opportunity here to deliver, and by moving forward with the amendments on a teaching Welsh on a single continuum code then we can deliver what we want to see happening and what the Government's own strategies want to see delivered.

The reality of the situation is that the Bill and the curriculum as it currently stands doesn't create a single continuum for the teaching of Welsh; it rehashes a situation that is already failing by having two continuums branded as one, by placing differential expectations on Welsh-medium and English-medium pupils without any clear meeting of the two paths on the journey towards 2050. So, we have two systems running side by side here and that will be what we do have unless the Bill is amended.

And it's not just me who is saying this. Again, I draw your attention to what a whole host of language organisations have said. Aled Roberts, the Welsh Language Commissioner, states that the framework of the new Curriculum for Wales already suggests, according to the Minister, that there is enough detail and direction on the teaching of Welsh, but Aled Roberts says, 'I disagree with this and I'm not of the view that the general framework of the curriculum will drive the changes necessary in order to deliver one of the key targets of Cymraeg 2050, namely that 50 per cent of pupils in the English-medium sector will leave school as Welsh speakers by 2050. I am concerned that the new curriculum, to all intents and purposes, repeats the failings of the past and continues with the current regime of having two educational pathways for the Welsh language, and that hidden under the auspices of a single or continuous continuum.'

The Minister says that she would like to see where further detail is required, and a clear evidence basis has been provided to the committee and the Government by Aled Roberts very recently as a result of that call made. Now, what's been provided by the commissioner does demonstrate in a practical way how a code would add value and would improve what's already included in the area of learning and experience. It also puts an end to this ongoing debate that there will be a future opportunity to cover this policy area.

I'm going to give the commissioner the final word by urging the committee to support the amendments that we've put forward. These are Aled Roberts's words: 'It's clear to me that the national Curriculum for Wales is a vehicle for driving this whole process forward. If the curriculum sets clear expectations, then the rest of the education system will follow and adapt. If the curriculum doesn't take a lead on this, the likelihood is that there will be deficiencies in terms of the skills of teachers, schools' capacity, qualifications and resources, and that will lead to will lead to a never-ending cycle which will continue to hamper improvement in the Welsh language skills of Welsh pupils.'

10:10

Diolch, Chair. Minister, you've come good on your promises that you made to committee by introducing your amendments, and we're going to support those. But, as you've indicated that you won't be supporting amendment 44, I wonder if you'd be willing to think a little bit harder about this for Stage 3. If we're going to grow a truly bilingual nation, I think it's going to be a long haul, and the path is already littered, isn't it, with failed and pretty expensive policies. You know as well as all of us that trying to persuade English-medium schools to raise the authentic presence of Welsh in their schools has not—with honourable exceptions—been successful. And I think, in focusing on Welsh-medium schools in your contribution, you don't say what the code could offer English-medium schools, and I'm not as sure as you that guidance is enough.

As with RSE, I think you're going to have to mandate steps to make sure that the provisions of the curriculum do what's needed in making this ambition for Welsh clear, fair and real. You say you don't want to interfere with pedagogy for Welsh language, but you're happy enough to do it for RSE. So, my view is you need to equip the current workforce as well as the future one, through a period of massive professional learning. And it is a massive professional learning ask, with AoLEs having equal status. And I don't think you'll get enough to even kick-start a continuum, for the reasons Siân said, unless you are firm, but realistic, at the outset about what schools need to do. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Okay. Can I call the Minister, then, to reply to the debate?

Thank you very much, Lynne. I'm sure it is unintentional, but Siân Gwenllian misinterprets the single continuum. The progression code is absolutely clear on where we expect children and how we expect children to progress in both English and in Welsh. So, the expectations, in terms of language acquisition, are absolutely clear. But Suzy Davies just used the word 'realistic'. Siân Gwenllian cannot, I am sure, believe that the ability to progress in the Welsh language for a child that is attending an English-medium school will be as quick and the expectations will be as high as for a child that is attending a Welsh-medium school. Now, that's not to say that that progression will not happen, but it will happen at a different pace, and it'll happen in a different way.

Now, Suzy Davies talks about interfering in pedagogy. The effect of Siân Gwenllian's amendment is to do just that. It is to tell teachers in our Welsh-medium sector how to teach the language. Now, I for one hold those teachers in the highest regard, and I certainly don't want to interfere in their pedagogy, and I don't want to put constraints on them that we are not putting on teachers in the English-medium sector on how they teach English. I am fully confident in the ability of those teachers to teach their students and their subject.

However, I am the first person to recognise that we need to set higher expectations and to provide more support for the acquisition of the Welsh language in English-medium settings, which is why, as I said in my opening statement, it is my intention to bring forward additional support via a Welsh-language framework for those schools. Now, Suzy Davies says that hoping for it to happen might not be enough, and I would say that section 66 powers exist within this Bill that we could make that framework a compulsory framework and a statutory framework, and I am very happy to consider that proposal and to consider using those powers in that particular way.

Can I turn to the issue of what Siân Gwenllian said about the Welsh Language Commissioner? I am very familiar with the asks of the Welsh Language Commissioner, but those asks go way beyond—way, way beyond—a curriculum Bill. In his most recent correspondence to me, he talks about the Welsh in education strategic plan process—we're already changing, and have changed, the WESP process. He talks about categorisation of schools, and we are changing that. We have heard this morning about staffing. I couldn't agree more, but changing the curriculum is not going to address the needs around staffing or, indeed, professional development.

If we're to achieve the goals of Cymraeg 2050, I agree we need to see a step change in the quality of teaching of Welsh in our English-medium schools. The progression code sets out a very clear pathway of our expectations in that regard, and I believe that our Welsh language framework will provide the scaffolding, support and expectation on how that progression can be achieved. I hope Members will support the Government amendments, as I said, that are in line with the committee's recommendations, and I would ask Members to reject amendment 44. Thank you.

10:15

Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to proceed to a vote, then, on amendment 1?

Okay. Thank you. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? There's no objection, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Grŵp 3: Sgiliau achub bywyd a chymorth cyntaf (Gwelliannau 50, 52)
Group 3: Lifesaving skills and first aid (Amendments 50, 52)

That take us on to group 3, which relates to lifesaving skills and first aid. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 50, in the name of Suzy Davies. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 50 and to speak to her other amendment in this group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 50 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 50 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, and I move the amendments in this group. Minister and Members, I'm sure you won't be surprised to see these amendments here. And, Minister, as someone who's supported the mandatory teaching of emergency lifesaving skills on the school curriculum when in opposition, this is your chance to ensure that it happens. In fact, as the education Minister, you're really the only supporter of the idea who can make it happen. I do understand your wish not to include too many mandatory elements into the curriculum, and, indeed, into the Bill, but I'm hoping that you understand my wish to stop people dying of cardiac arrest when they don't need to.

Now, in the interests of brevity at this stage, because we've got a long day ahead of us, I'm not going to rehearse all the difference that it makes to the survival rates of those suffering cardiac arrests in countries where young people have to learn cardiopulmonary resuscitation and defibrillator skills. Everyone here will have heard me say it before, and will know the level of support, where there are some charities promoting it, from the health sector, from families and the general public.

I think what no-one is clear about is why, now that England and Scotland have accepted the arguments and are making these lessons mandatory—and we're only talking about two hours a year here—you, as a Minister, are so resistant. I mean, two hours a year does not clutter up the curriculum. And I appreciate that the skills have been highlighted in document support in the curriculum, and I appreciate that the Government has introduced its out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan or the 'anything but make it mandatory' plan, as I call it, but these will not have the same impact as creating a generation of lifesavers for whom these skills are as second nature as reciting their 10 times table. If left as an option, if my experience speaking to schools is anything to go by, it's an option that doesn't get picked up, despite it taking so little time and organisation.

Now, you may wish to say that these skills aren't as important as, say, the ability for children and young people to better manage their own mental health, which you have addressed in later amendments. I'm saying it's not either/or, and, as a Parliament that observes article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, however, it is worth pointing out that our own Youth Parliament made lifesaving skills their priority, albeit marginally ahead of support for mental health.

As with the Welsh history amendments, I've offered Members different options with these two amendments. The first makes this a mandatory subject, the second makes it a mandatory requirement under the 'what matters' code. Amendment 77, which we'll discuss later, offers a third, much weaker option, but it does give you, Minister, the option to introduce statutory guidance on the teaching of lifesaving skills. But the amendments in this group are the ones that offer certainty and the opportunity of a quick, no-peril, popular win, which Wales will welcome, which is completely non-party political, and so I urge Members to support either of the two amendments in this group. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. Can I call on the Minister, then, to speak?

Thank you, Chair, and to match Suzy Davies's brevity in this regard, because we have had considerable, lengthy debates on this, I would draw the Member's attention to the Curriculum for Wales guidance, which will become statutory, which refers to both lifesaving skills and first aid. We would never, in this approach to the curriculum, identify an amount of time that any subject should be taught, and I have to say, I would hope that more than two hours could be spent, perhaps, on these issues, because they are important. It is because they are important that they are included, as I said, in the statutory guidance for the overall design of the curriculum. Thank you.

10:20

Yes, Minister, obviously I realise that there is some work on this already evident in the documents that are supporting the curriculum. I'm pleased to hear that what you're talking about will become statutory, but what's not clear from this is what that statutory guidance will actually produce by way of implementation. One of the reasons I really wanted to get this on the face of the Bill, or at least within the 'what matters' code, is because it will be clear what schools will be expected to do. And guidance—statutory or otherwise—is not the same as compulsion. Because we're talking about something that they should do, rather than something that they must do. I appreciate you won't have the opportunity to come back in this debate to talk about that, but we'll be discussing a similar process in the next group of amendments, and perhaps you might be able to say what your understanding is of what would happen to schools if they didn't follow your statutory guidance. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Suzy. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 50?

The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. I'll therefore take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 50 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 50: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 50: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 4: Addysg lles mislifol (Gwelliannau 51, 53)
Group 4: Menstrual well-being education (Amendments 51, 53)

That takes us on group 4 on menstrual well-being education. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 51, in the name of Suzy Davies. I call Suzy Davies to move amendment 51, and to speak to her other amendment in this group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 51 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 51 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I move the amendments here. These amendments have been tabled in much the same way as those on lifesaving skills. There are two alternatives in this group, with a further option for guidance under amendment 75. Compared to group 3, though, these are a little bit more in the nature of probing amendments, and an invitation to you, Minister, to explain how you will secure the teaching of menstrual well-being, regardless of gender, within our schools. Members will recall the debate on endometriosis at the end of last term, which found approval for this being taught in schools as a compulsory element. There's nothing stopping it being taught under the new curriculum, but there's nothing obliging it either, as far as I can see.

The subject has found its way into public discourse more recently than lifesaving skills, so I would have been more disposed to let Government have a bit more time to think about this—about how to ensure that this important work is done. However, the health Minister's response to that debate was less than wholehearted, if you remember, so I am bringing this one aspect of that debate to you, Minister, because you can deliver on it. I think the easiest way to do that would be to choose one of the amendments, or at least make a commitment now in the spirit of amendment 75. But if you do have an alternative way of securing the purpose of this amendment, not just provide it at as option, then, of course, I'll be happy to listen. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Can I call the Minister to speak, then?

Thank you very much, Suzy, for that. Can I say that I agree with the Member on the importance of these topics, especially when she talks about 'regardless of gender'? Every child in our system needs to understand about issues around menstrual health, so I think that is a very important principle. The 'developing physical health and well-being has lifelong benefits' statements of the 'what matters' code do recognise, and I quote,

'the connection between the physical and emotional changes that can occur in different contexts.'

And, indeed, published statutory guidance also talks about ensuring that learners are supported to understand and manage the developmental changes, as well as how those changes affect learners in a range of different ways. However, like she says, I am interested in exploring what other opportunities there are to get greater assurance that the topic of menstrual well-being will be covered. I think the best way to do that is to work with the group that is developing the RSE code, which, as you know, will be on the face of the Bill and will be subject to an affirmative vote, I hope, at the Senedd, to ensure that that is a specific topic that is covered in the RSE code. I think that's the best and most appropriate way that we can gain the certainty that that subject will be covered and will be taught. I hope that when the code is published for public consultation, which I am determined will happen in March [correction: soon after March] of this year, the Member will see that the important points that she raises are addressed at that time. Thank you.

10:25

Thank you very much for that, Minister. I'm going to proceed to a vote anyway, because I think it's important to put down a marker about the intentions that you've expressed today, as well as our own. I appreciate that this is going to go into the RSE code. I'm very pleased to hear you say that that's going to be ready by March, so I hope you'll be supporting some amendments of mine later on. But there is still quite a lot of hope rather than certainty involved in this, so while I really want to take you at your word here, and I do believe that you want to make sure that this is covered properly, I think I still need to go to that vote to make sure that when, at least, we reach Stage 3—because I think we need to bring this back at Stage 3 so that you could give us further information about what your plans are. Thank you for that.

Thank you, Suzy. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 51 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 51: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 51: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 42 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 42 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 42 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 42 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 42 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 42: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 42: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 2 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 2 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 2 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 3 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 3 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 3 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 3 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 43 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 43 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 43 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. So, I'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 43 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

10:30

And I vote against. There voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 43 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 43: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 43: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 52 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 52 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 52 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 52: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 52: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 53 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 53 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] As we have an objection, I'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, and amendment 53 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 53: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 53: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 5: Addysg Cydberthynas a Rhywioldeb (Gwelliannau 54, 56, 58, 59, 60, 61, 66, 70)
Group 5: Relationships and Sexuality Education (Amendments 54, 56, 58, 59, 60, 61, 66, 70)

That takes us on, then, to group 5, which relates to relationships and sexuality education. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 54 in the name of Suzy Davies. I call Suzy Davies to move amendment 54 and to speak to her other amendments in this group. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 54 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 54 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I move the lead amendment here. We know this has been one of the most controversial elements of curriculum change, and there'll be very few people who don't understand why parents are worried that decisions about sex education, always a sensitive subject, look like they're being taken out of their hands. But this part of the curriculum is not primarily about sex, nor does it interfere with a parent's right to share their own views and their own ethics about sex at home. In summary for me, this is about protecting all our children by arming them with knowledge—and not just about sex; it's about equipping them to exercise judgment about their own behaviour and that of others, it's about giving them courage to control what happens to them and to side with what’s right when they see wrong.

All my amendments are about three specific things. The first is to make sure that the second two do not dilute, undermine or compromise the purpose of this part of the Bill. The second is making it clear that, while a child's right to be safe and free of prejudice is paramount, the voice of the parent cannot be shut out, and this Bill does need to be fairer to a section of society that is actually losing a right as a result of this legislation. The third is the recognition that, without sight of a draft RSE code, it is very difficult to reassure families what 'developmentally appropriate' actually means and reassure teachers that they will have everything they need to deliver this positively and without getting it wrong. That’s what amendment 54 is about, Minister.

You know you're asking us to take the operation of RSE on trust as we haven’t seen a draft code. It's not a satisfactory way to make law, as we can’t scrutinise what doesn’t exist, even though I appreciate the reassurance you've given us in the previous debate. Your colleague Ken Skates was able to provide a raft of draft guidance for us when he brought forward the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill and he didn’t have four years to do it in. And I think the lack of an RSE code in draft can’t be blamed on COVID. I think it's such a potential minefield that teachers, let alone us, need to see this code before they go anywhere near the classroom. So, I very much appreciate your movement on the process for introducing the code so that this legislature can bring some scrutiny to it, but this amendment is here to make sure that it's not left until the last minute.

Amendments 56 and 58 say that a school cannot adopt or change the RSE provision in the curriculum unless parents, as defined elsewhere, are consulted, and amendments 56 and 60 make essentially the same provision for non-maintained nurseries. I just want to be clear on this: these amendments do not give parents the right to overturn, to veto or refuse the RSE offer, nor do they restore the right to withdraw their children from these lessons. Schools and nurseries have to follow the requirements of what constitutes a curriculum laid down in this Bill and these amendments do not interfere with that. Schools and teachers will have to follow the RSE code, which will have a very limited scope for being localised, and these amendments don't interfere with that, either. These amendments are here to help parents understand what is planned, to ask questions, and to help a school deliver what is planned in a way that works best for everyone. To be honest, these amendments aren't even about co-production, but they are about including parents, bringing them along with decisions, helping avoid the misunderstandings that have emerged in evidence, and amendment 76 a little later on would give guidance to governors on this and how to deal with that conversation with parents.

Amendment 70 gives voice to our committee view that sixth formers should receive RSE if they request it, which puts it in line with their rights with regard to religion, values and ethics. Amendments 61 and 66 and 70—subsection (3)—are effectively probing amendments. I think we've probably all received requests for amendments to this Bill to include references to family life and morality, retaining requirements in the existing England and Wales legislation. I'm not minded to support those requests, on the basis that morality will of necessity be a question raised time and time again in the RVE curriculum, but even though this isn't where the lobby requests were coming from, I do think the concept of family is worth raising here, because what does family mean these days? In this context particularly, what happens within families can be very difficult for a child to deal with, and I don't necessarily mean sinister behaviour. So, it needs a place, I think, in this curriculum that's clear and overt.

I'm curious to hear from you, Minister, about how this delicate subject will fit into the RSE code, because there is a very fine line to draw between education and safeguarding and stepping into people's homes. I'm tabling these amendments today to really draw your attention to that question, and see how you respond to it. Thank you.

10:35

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Chair. I realise that I'm new to this committee, coming on this late, but I've been keeping a very close eye on this, and of course, all of us will have had representations as well from various organisations, both nationally and within their own constituency. I would simply ask, without abusing the privilege of coming onto this committee late in the day here, that the Minister does everything she possibly can to put on record assurances in response to some of the matters that Suzy has raised, not least in terms of the ability to scrutinise the code when it does come forward in a timely manner. But also, I've been told by organisations that there's been really good engagement with Welsh Government on this matter. I'd like to hear that and I'd like to hear that this will continue as well in that spirit of real constructive engagement and openness that I've been told has been going on throughout the period with Welsh Government. So, I'm looking for those reassurances to be put as clearly and as forcefully as possible on record today, Chair. Thanks very much.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much to Suzy and Huw for their comments. Can I say that I appreciate that everybody would have felt more comfortable if the draft code had been completed by this stage? There's no getting away from that; it would have made for more reassurance, which everybody is asking for. We are working incredibly carefully with communities, experts in the field, practitioners in this field to be able to develop a code that does indeed give that confidence and seeks to achieve what Suzy Davies outlined in her opening comments, that equips our children and young people with all the skills that they need to lead happy, healthy lives with healthy relationships into the future; that they can take steps to protect themselves, that they can take steps to ensure that their behaviour towards others is what we would want it to be, and to avoid some of the stigma and pain that children have felt in the past when these topics and these issues have not been adequately addressed in their own schooling. As we said in the debate at Stage 1, our children and young people are growing up in a world that is unrecognisable to the one that we grew up in, and ensuring that they have access to support and materials, a safe space to ask questions and debate issues, is really, really important. Because the alternative is much, much more scary, and much, much more dangerous to our children's well-being.

So, we're working at pace, Huw, as far as we can. Some of our deep community engagement has had to change as a result of COVID. We were out in communities, working with community groups in face-to-face discussions—that kind of activity, I'm afraid, has had to be stopped and changed as a result of where we are. But as I said in a previous debate, I am absolutely determined that the statutory guidance work will be completed before the end of March, and then we will go to a formal consultation, not just with Members of the Senedd, but a consultation with the people of Wales about the content of that code.

With regards to amendments 56, 58, 59 and 60, the RSE statutory guidance that we published, actually, in January of last year does already have the expectation that RSE will be co-produced, offering learners, parents and carers the opportunity to discuss and engage with decisions about the learning and teaching in RSE. Provision should also draw upon specialist services and expertise and engage with local communities. We've already set that expectation out there over a year ago, and we're very clear, also, that that should be mindful of different perspectives and the backgrounds within a local community. 

The Welsh Government does not consider, however, that schools and settings should be placed under a statutory obligation to consult specifically on this area of their curriculum. Indeed, the expectation is that the school will already be consulting parents about the curriculum as a whole, and therefore we do not feel that it is necessary to have a separate consultation on this particular aspect of their curriculum. 

I will also not be supporting amendments 61 and 66. Relationships and sexuality education will gradually enable children and young people to develop an understanding of the importance of all healthy relationships throughout their lives, such as those with friends and families, including what makes a happy, healthy and committed relationship. As it quite clearly says, in the statement of 'what matters', in the health and well-being area of learning and experience, all healthy relationships are fundamental to our well-being, and children begin to learn about relationships long before they start school, and at a very young age. So, we want learners to be focusing on developing positive relationships, initially with their friends and families.

I'm sure it's not the intention, and indeed I know it's not the intention of Suzy Davies, but I am concerned that this amendment is likely to act as a signal to schools and other settings that they should not give equal weight to all types of relationships and to diverse families, and we are far, far beyond that, I hope, in a modern Wales. We should be enabling and accepting the choices that our young people make, and this Bill is designed to support those young people in making those healthy, positive choices. 

I also urge Members not to support amendment 70, which seeks to require schools to provide RSE to post-16 learners. RSE is on the face of the Bill as a statutory element of the new curriculum for learners from 3 to 16. This is the priority age group, so by the time that learners reach what used to be called a sixth form, now years 12 and 13, they have received many years of education on this topic, and so will be as well equipped at this stage as they are able to be. All learners will have had access to the full curriculum and all pupils will have received this education. The intention is that post-16 providers will use the RSE guidance to support post-16 learners in RSE and other health and well-being matters as part of their wider duty of care and pastoral support. The draft RSE guidance is intended to support education settings to integrate RSE into a whole-school approach to building and maintaining good physical, mental and emotional health and well-being. Sixth forms and colleges will therefore be expected to consider this guidance as they shape provision that effectively supports their young people. And the position for RSE in sixth forms will be the same as for students in FE institutions. Can I thank the Member for her comments, and I urge Members to reject the amendments.

10:45

Thank you very much, and thank you for your considered response there, Minister. Once again, it's an opportunity to reinforce that promise you made earlier that we will get an RSE code by March, and in those circumstances I don't see that there's any peril for you in committing to an amendment that obliges you to do that. 

Regarding the consultation with parents, I appreciate what you were saying that there's an expectation on schools to consult, but it's that magic word 'expectation' again, isn't it? I'm looking for certainty here. I'm looking for the right for parents to be informed, because that's what we're talking about here—about any changes to RSE, in particular, because it is such a controversial area—so that they can be brought along as part of the process, and actually maybe reinforce what's being taught in their schools within the family home, rather than contradicting it. I suspect we all have worries about what some children are taught at home, and this is actually where you can perhaps ameliorate our concerns on that. I really want them to have this right, not just rely on the goodwill and expectations that appear in documents beneath this curriculum.  

Just on the point about RSE at 16, yes, we will hope, won't we, Minister, that years and years of good RSE will have equipped our 16-year-olds to be ready to face anything in the world. I really do hope that; I just don't think it's going to happen necessarily. Every individual is different, and there will be some young people who are coming across their first challenges to do with relationships, or encountering their first really bad experiences at that age of 16, and I don't see why they shouldn't have the option of doing as they do with RVE, and you haven't explained the distinction why there's a different approach. 

And so, I am urging Members to support that particular ask, if you like, if not in this particular amendment, because I realise it's a bit of a composite amendment, then I'm looking for support for it at Stage 3 when I'll actually narrow this down and make it about just one thing, which is allowing young people at the age of 16 to ask for something that really matters to them. I'm not just going to throw amendment 12 or the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child at it again, but if this matters to young people then we need to listen. Thank you. 

Thank you, Suzy. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 54?

The question is that amendment 54 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

I vote against. There voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, and amendment 54 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 54: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 54: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 44 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 44 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 44 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. There is an objection, so I will take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. There voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative—that is, against the amendment—in accordance with Standing Orders, and amendment 44 is not agreed.

10:50

Gwelliant 44: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 44: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 6: Amserlen weithredu (Gwelliannau 55, 57)
Group 6: Implementation time frame (Amendments 55, 57)

We'll move on now, then, to group 6, which relates to the implementation time frame. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 55, in the name of Suzy Davies. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 55 and to speak to the other amendments in this group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 55 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 55 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you again, Chair. Since these amendments were tabled, of course, Minister, you've introduced your curriculum implementation plan. Like all plans, it will be leapt upon by the willing and able and dutifully worked through by others who are organised and resilient, and maybe cried over by others where there is weak leadership or engagement, a history of poor attainment and standards, or who are just overwhelmed by the events of this year. Now, we've seen the Estyn reports, Minister. Our secondary schools, in particular, are not all with the programme yet, and no wonder, then, that there is a surge in demand for training.

So, yes, there is, maybe as a result of COVID, a better understanding of the digital sphere and well-being. These may well be the silver linings of the crisis, but the grim reality is that heads have now to focus on catch-up if some of the worst affected children aren't permanently affected by their lost learning. So, amendment 57 doesn't seek to delay implementation of the curriculum per se—it really doesn't. Those schools who can crack on, let them crack on. This is an amendment for those schools who just won't be able to, and I'm suggesting that you allow them up to a year to get ready enough to get going. 

Now, obviously, I'm mindful of your concerns that maybe some school leaders will see this as a green light to slacken off the pace in terms of curriculum development, but to be honest, I think we need to consider how close to burning out some of our heads and teachers themselves might be as this pandemic persists, and so a slackening of the pace may actually be what they need to get this right eventually. But because there may be some who could take advantage for no good reason, the amendment contains the condition that no pupil must be disadvantaged as a result of any delay. So, basically, if the head delays implementation, they will have a new headache of having to catch up faster with the curriculum, thus avoiding any perverse incentive to delay. So, I'm tabling this amendment in response to the committee's recommendation 57, and amendment 55 is just consequential on amendment 57. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Can I call the Minister, then?

Thank you, Lynne. I think Suzy Davies quite rightly identifies a real issue. I just disagree with her solution. Rather than slackening the pace for those that face the greatest challenges, we need to up the support to get them in a position that allows them to move forward with those colleagues that are more resilient, as she just identified. There are undoubtedly those schools that will have challenges, and that's why Welsh Government, school improvement services, local education authorities, and our school inspectorate are there to provide that additional support that they will need to make a successful transition to the new curriculum. 

Of course, we have to take in the context which we find ourselves in, and that's why I don't believe we are in a situation where we can either do the curriculum or we can design a recovery plan from COVID-19 to address the interruption and disruption to children's learning. Indeed, in many ways, the application and the introduction of the new curriculum, which is focused on that teaching and learning and on that well-being, I would argue, is exactly the approach that we need as we address the impact of COVID-19. So, whilst I do not disagree with the Member that there will be schools that will need additional support, I just disagree with the answer to that. It's not to slow things down. It is incumbent upon us in the Government and our other education partners to address those concerns in those individual schools and to get them to be in a position where they are able to move forward at the same time. Otherwise, the Member just addressed those schools that perhaps are particularly challenged at the moment; we will just embed that inconsistency of provision across Wales, rather than addressing it. Thank you.

Yes, thank you, Minister. As I say, this is an attempt to respond to a recommendation from the committee, and I think I'd just want to point these out—. I think I do need to say this. Yes, Minister, you're absolutely right; these schools do need to have extra support—let's up the support—but there are only so many hours in a day and, at the moment, all our schools are struggling, and trying to find space for extra support itself would be quite a challenge. And, yes, you may well be right that the new curriculum, or the principles contained in it, is actually a tool for the catch-up that actually so many schools are going to need in this, but we don't know that. And we still as a committee have ongoing concerns about how the curriculum is going to be operationalised and whether it will have an effect on standards. Will it increase the attainment gap, for example? These are unanswered questions. And so, putting all your eggs in one basket on curriculum processes in order to enable schools at the moment with their catch-up programme is a risk in and of itself, I think. And that's why I'm not just inclined to accept your argument on this one either. I don't think it's an easy answer. And I'll just repeat that point that I think some schools are going to be plunged into having to implement the new curriculum and, because of COVID, they just won't be ready and I do wonder what the effect will be on year 7 in particular, if that does happen. Thank you.

10:55

Thank you, Suzy. Suzy, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 55?

The question is that amendment 55 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 55 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour and four against. Therefore, amendment 55 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 55: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 55: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 56 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 56 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I will take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour and four against. Therefore, amendment 56 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 56: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 56: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 57 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 57 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 57 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you, we have an objection, so we'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour and four against. Therefore, amendment 57 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 57: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 57: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 58 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 58 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 58 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted—. Huw, can we go back to you, please?

Against. Okay. So, there voted two in favour and four against. Therefore, amendment 58 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 58: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 58: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

The question is that amendment 58 be agreed, Does any Member object? [Objection.] Sorry, I've made—.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 59 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 59 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 59 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 59 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

11:00

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 59 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 59: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 59: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 60 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 60 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Yes. I don't think it's consequential. Yes, please. Yes.

The question is that amendment 60 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. There voted two in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 60 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 60: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 60: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 45 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 45 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 45 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 45 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. There voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 45 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 45: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 45: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 61 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 61 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 61 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 61 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. There voted two in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 61 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 61: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 61: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 4 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 4 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 4 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 4 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Okay. Amendment 4 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 5 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 5 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 5 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 5 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Okay, then amendment 5 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

The committee will now take a short break and reconvene in 15 minutes. Thank you.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:03 ac 11:18.

The meeting adjourned between 11:03 and 11:18.

11:15
Grŵp 7: Crefydd, Gwerthoedd a Moeseg (Gwelliannau 85, 86, 15, 87, 88, 16, 17, 89, 18, 19, 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40)
Group 7: Religion, Values and Ethics (Amendments 85, 86, 15, 87, 88, 16, 17, 89, 18, 19, 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40)

Welcome back, everyone, to our Stage 2 proceedings. We are now moving on to group 7, which relates to religion, values and ethics. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 85, in the name of Suzy Davies, and I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 85 and to speak to her other amendments in this group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 85 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 85 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you very much, Chair, and I move the lead amendment here. Before I move on, though, I've just got a quick question on the Government amendments that remove references to religious traditions in Great Britain and replace them with references to religious traditions in Wales. We're going to be supporting these, but it does suggest that there might be a slightly narrower offer in Wales as a result of that. If I can just give you an example of a possible unintended consequence, of which perhaps you can reassure me very quickly in your contribution, Minister: it occurs to me that we commemorated the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau just two days ago, yet we don't, for example, have a significant Jewish population in Swansea, in my region, any more, and I wouldn't like them to disappear from the local RVE offer just because they're not there in numbers now. So, perhaps you could just deal with that very swiftly in your contribution.

I've got two questions about Government amendments 31 and 34. In short, they say that the body tasked with devising the local RVE curriculum,

'shall, so far as consistent with the efficient discharge of the group's functions, reflect broadly the proportionate strength of the religion, denomination or non-religious philosophical conviction in the area.'

I can see why it's phrased in that way, and, as far as I can see, it's your way of giving a meaningful voice to those with a philosophical conviction that doesn't embrace the idea of a god or gods. The example we've been discussing is humanists, for example, who have a considered credo and principles by which they live under. If that's what you mean in those amendments, then we have no issue. But could you clarify what you mean by the word 'conviction' in your contribution, please, Minister? Because however culturally Christian Wales might be, and however many faithful observants of different religions we have here, Wales is now predominantly agnostic or even an atheist country in terms of where it stands with religion. Now, personally, I wouldn't call that a position of conviction, but it does reflect the majority population's relationship with religion. So, if you interpret conviction widely, then this body of curriculum designers will be dominated by people who believe in nothing, and I'm not sure that's what you intended, and I would say the confidence in such a body to design a local religion, values and ethics curriculum would be very much damaged. So, I wonder if you could just reassure me on that as well in your contribution.

Before turning to my amendments, though, can I just thank you, Minister, for listening to this committee, other Members and constituents, on tabling the amendments you have that equalise the position for all schools in that they have to have regard to the agreed RVE syllabus? I'm going to let you speak to those amendments, but I did want you to know that we are grateful to you and that we will be supporting your amendments to that effect.

My amendments, which I'll speak to altogether, if that's okay, don't undermine those changes. I just want to reinforce that point. These amendments acknowledge the fact that voluntary aided schools are also under obligations relating to their deeds or tenets. But, in accepting the Government amendments, we are moving away from the redundant language of accordance and to the principle of having regard—a sort of 'due regard', if you like. And with these amendments, voluntary aided schools have two statutory due regard duties—neither more important than the other. And so, yes, they can reflect and consider and balance the weighting of the curriculum they offer—we are talking about a denominational curriculum that observes deeds and tenets; they are schools of religious character after all—but they cannot hide behind those deeds or tenets to avoid entirely the requirements of the local RVE curriculum. And nor should they need to, because we've been told repeatedly, haven't we, that voluntary aided schools offer a broad and balanced curriculum, notwithstanding their deeds and tenets, and pupils of totally different religions and beliefs, as well as those with none, follow those curricula without any attempts by parents to withdraw.

So, what these amendments do, by putting into legislation both due regards, is three things. Firstly, it closes an escape route that voluntary aided schools might want to explore—for example, not teaching pupils about humanism or discussing it. They can't leave out huge chunks of the locally agreed RVE curriculum, as that wouldn't credibly satisfy their due regard duty, and, after all, their religious representatives have helped design that agreed curriculum. And the weighting—and all schools of any character will decide how they weight content—will, I expect, in these circumstances, reflect adherence to deeds and tenets. Secondly, it does away with a need for a right for a child in that school to demand a separate RVE curriculum. If those due regards are exercised appropriately—and we've discussed the evidence required to show that in another group of amendments—the school will be delivering a compliant curriculum. If it hasn't exercised those due regards properly, then it is not. And that allows a child—a child—or a parent to pursue the complaint and remedial processes set out elsewhere in the Bill, although I think there's some more work to be done on that, which I'll raise at Stage 3. And then, thirdly, it offers fairness to parents who are losing a right as a result of this legislation, and it gives them, as well as their children, an alternative remedy.

Chair, I won't be a calling for a vote on amendment 89, as I think that needs a bit of further consideration—this is to do with the complaints process—but I will come back at Stage 3 with something on that territory for Members' consideration. Thank you.

11:20

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who would like to speak? Can I call the Minister, then, please?

11:25

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm afraid I cannot support amendments 85 and 86. We have had detailed discussions with our delivery partners, and the Government amendments 15 to 17 have been drafted specifically around those discussions. So, therefore, in turning to amendment 15, paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 to the Bill as introduced requires the RVE provision in the curriculum of voluntary aided schools with a religious character to have been designed in accordance with the trust deeds or tenets of the school’s religion or denomination. However, if that RVE provision does not accord with the agreed syllabus, voluntary aided schools must make additional provision in the curriculum for RVE that accords with the agreed syllabus.

However, in discussions with our delivery partners, they conveyed their view that this approach would place them under a more onerous obligation and, indeed, create practical issues for learners. They felt that these schools were not being treated equally with other maintained schools under the Bill, and they have strongly argued that, in order for the provisions to be fair, voluntary aided schools with a religious character should be required to 'have regard' to the agreed syllabus when designing their RVE provision. This change ensures that all schools are treated equally in that all schools in Wales now will have to 'have regard' to the agreed syllabus. This change will still mean that parents whose children are in a school of a religious character and who do not want their child to follow the denominational syllabus will still be able to request their child is able to follow a syllabus that has regard to the agreed syllabus.

This was also the view of the committee and therefore amendment 15 requires voluntary aided schools with a religious character to provide for the teaching and learning of non-denominational RVE that 'has regard to' the agreed syllabus rather than 'accords with' when designing their curriculum.

Again, in relation to amendments 87 and 88, I cannot support these because of our discussions with delivery partners and the tabling of our own amendments 15 to 17. That brings me to amendments 16 and 17. These amendments are also the result of discussions and engagement and are consequential on amendment 15 to change the requirement for voluntary aided schools with a religious character to provide for the teaching and learning of non-denominational RVE that 'has regard to' the agreed syllabus. Amendments 16 and 17 need to be accepted together with amendment 15.

I note that Suzy Davies is not intending, at this stage, to move amendment 89. I'm pleased that she has stated this. I do not believe that it is required, because a complaints process is already in place for all elements of school management, including the curriculum. Governing bodies of maintained schools must adopt a complaints policy under section 29 of the Education Act 2002 and there is also provision in section 409 of the Education Act 1996 that requires a local authority to establish a complaints process in respect of a complaint that a governing body of a maintained school has acted or is proposing to act unreasonably in relation to a power they have or the duties to which they are subject. Adding another complaints process would be unnecessary duplication and would simply be an additional burden for schools when the requirement for a complaints procedure is already set out in legislation.

Amendments 18 though 20, 26 through 28 and 35 through 40 will ensure that teaching and learning of RVE for post-16 pupils will reflect the religious and non-religious philosophical convictions represented and practised in Wales. The Bill, as currently drafted, makes reference to religions and beliefs represented and practiced in Great Britain, as opposed to Wales, and, having considered representations, I now feel it is more appropriate for the Bill to reflect the religions and non-religious philosophical convictions represented and practised in Wales rather than in Great Britain. This Bill is a Wales-only Bill and, therefore, it's only right that we replace 'Great Britain' with 'Wales'. But I take Suzy Davies's point, and I certainly would not want that to curtail—. You're quite right, Suzy—Swansea and, indeed, Cardiff, as well as other parts of Wales, do indeed have a Jewish tradition. Those communities are relatively small, but that's not to exclude their discussion, and, when we talk about religion and ethics, we want it to be expansive. The whole purpose of making this a compulsory element of the Bill is for pupils to have an awareness of a variety of belief systems that they will come across in their daily lives, that they will read about and hear about in the news, and therefore I certainly wouldn't want it to—and it's certainly not our intention that we would—exclude in any way.

Amendments 29 through 34 alter the composition of the standing advisory councils on religious education, the SACREs, and the agreed syllabus conferences, the ASCs. The Bill as introduced makes provision for a separate, new group within SACREs and ASCs to represent non-religious philosophical convictions. On that point, Suzy, that terminology is longstanding legislative terminology of this kind. It is found both in UK legislation and also European Convention on Human Rights advice. So, we're trying to make sure that there is consistency in drafting, and that is why that terminology is used. And this new group sits alongside, but is separate from, the groups that represent religious beliefs and denominations within SACREs and ASCs. 

It is important that religious and non-religious representation is included in the SACREs and the ASCs, but, having listened to representations, it was clear that there were considerable concerns from many stakeholders about having two separate committees, with one representing religious beliefs and another for those representing non-religious philosophical convictions. These amendments alter this position to require religious beliefs and non-religious philosophical convictions to be represented within the same group on both SACREs and ASCs. And this is in line with Welsh Government policy and current law. 

These amendments further require local authorities to take all reasonable steps to ensure, so far as is consistent with the efficient discharge of the group's functions, that the number of members appointed to the group broadly reflects the proportionate strengths, beliefs and convictions in local authority areas. The amendment also requires local authorities to have regard to any guidance given by Welsh Ministers when appointing members to this group on SACREs, but they do not make any corresponding provision in relation to ASCs, as the Bill already contains provision that will require local authorities to have regard to Welsh Ministers' guidance when appointing members of the group on ASCs.

To conclude, I would urge Members to vote in favour of Government amendments 15, 16 and 17, which have been developed in partnership with delivery groups, and reject non-Government amendments 85, 86, 87, 88, and I note the Member will not move 89. I also urge Members to vote in favour of our amendments as outlined in this discussion. Thank you.

11:30

Yes, thank you, and thank you for your response there, Minister. Just to go to amendment 89, I think it's because—this is entirely my fault—it refers to maintained schools, rather than voluntary aided schools, and that's the bit I need to reconsider in the context of a complaints process. It may not be so necessary now, as my main amendments, I guess, aren't going to be approved today. But I would be interested to hear, when you were speaking to your delivery partners about how to square this very difficult situation—the committee and constituents have talked to us about RVE quite a lot, as you know—whether the solution that I've offered, or an equivalent of it, obviously, as you hadn't seen my amendments before, was discussed as a way forward. And, again, you can't respond in this debate, but maybe out of committee—I'd be keen to know whether the solution I'm suggesting did come up. 

We’ll be supporting your amendments, as we say. Just on the point of 'conviction', I'm grateful to you for the confirmation that there’s already an existing understanding of what the word 'conviction' means in case law, and I'm happy to rely on that and needn't trouble you with the question again. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Suzy, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 85?

Yes, I do want to proceed on all these, apart from 89. Thank you, Chair. 

Okay. Thank you. The question, then, is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. We've got an objection, so we'll do a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, so amendment 85 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 85: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 85: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Suzy, you've already said—do you wish to move amendment 86?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 86 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 86 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 86 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 86 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

11:35

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and amendment 86 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 86: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 86: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 15 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 15 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 15 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 15 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote, then, on that. The question is that amendment 15 is agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one against—one abstention—so amendment 15 is agreed.

Gwelliant 15: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 15: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 87 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 87 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 87 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] As we have an objection, I'll take this to a vote. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, so the amendment is not agreed.

Gwelliant 87: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 87: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 88 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 88 (Suzy Davies) moved.

If amendment 88 is agreed, amendments 16 and 17 will fall. The question is amendment 88 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, the question is that amendment 88 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and amendment 88 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 88: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 88: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 16 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 16 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 16 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 16 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 16 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one abstention, and the amendment is agreed.

Gwelliant 16: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 16: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 17 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 17 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 17 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 17 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is amendment 17 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one abstention, and amendment 17 is agreed.

Gwelliant 17: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 17: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Suzy, you indicated that you don't wish to move amendment 89. Does any other Member wish to move amendment 89? Okay, thank you. 

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 89 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 89 (Suzy Davies) not moved.

Grŵp 8: Gweithredu cwricwlwm: Eithriadau (Gwelliannau 62, 63, 64)
Group 8: Curriculum implementation: Exceptions (Amendments 62, 63, 64)

We can move on, then, to group 8, which relates to exceptions to curriculum implementation. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 62 in the name of Suzy Davies. So, I call Suzy Davies to move amendment 62 and speak to her other amendments in the group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 62 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 62 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you very much, Chair. So, I move the lead amendment. I'm hoping that these amendments aren't contentious, as they make minor changes to help with transparency in process. Section 40 of the Bill is the section that allows for curriculum requirements not to be applied where a school is participating in experimental or developmental work. The Minister has power to issue a direction under section 42 to enable that work to be carried out. All amendment 62 does is ask that the direction's set out, the purpose of the direction, and information about any consultation that has taken place before the direction was made. As that direction has to be published, I just think it's useful to have information in it, which is clear to those who are affected by the direction, and indeed to us as legislators and elected Members, so that we can help explain the position to constituents. 

Amendments 63 and 64 can be read together. This is about perfecting the appeals process for the parent of a child who's unhappy with a headteacher's decision under section 44 to temporarily exempt their child from provisions of the curriculum in a non-maintained nursery. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for making that appeal—at least, not as far as I can see. So, these amendments firstly oblige rather than permit the Welsh Government to introduce regulations to assist with that process, and also include a time limit for making an appeal. I've asked for those regulations to be laid within six months of the commencement of the section simply to allow those who are affected by the Bill to have the tools they need should they wish to make an appeal.

11:40

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Can I call the Minister, then?

Thank you, Chair. I'm afraid to say that I do not support amendments 62 to 64. I do not consider that there is a need for a written statement. Section 42(3) of the Bill already provides that, where a direction under section 40 is given, it has to be published. Section 42(4) of the Bill also requires the setting to publish a summary of the curriculum that will be implemented as a result of changes. This amendment is unnecessary given the transparent nature of the conditions applied to the giving of the directions set out under sections 41 and 42.

As Suzy Davies quite rightly says, the principle of an appeals process is included in the Bill. Agreeing amendments 63 and 64 would have the effect of making a policy decision on time limits at this stage without having the evidence to support it. We will need to work with practitioners in the first instance to understand the necessity, if any, for regulations, and it will take time for the new curriculum to bed in. I don't want to bind the future Government's hand or commit to additional, national regulations if the profession feels that those are not warranted. Proper consultation to understand whether time limits would be appropriate at a national level, and the level of flexibility that they should have to fit in with schools' existing procedures, is required, and we do not wish to predetermine the matter, and to allow stakeholders the fullest opportunity to inform the policy. Thank you.

Thank you, yes. Minister, I think I acknowledged the fact that any direction you make on the back of section 40 has to be published, but it's not clear that the subsequent paragraph says what should be in that publication. I specifically raised this so that there's an indication for those affected by the direction to know who's been consulted, because we're talking about disruption to a child's education here, and if that is going to be what parents in particular have to put up with, then they should know whose opinion was sought in the process in the first place. I don't think it's an onerous ask, to be honest.

On the second point, I suppose the obvious question is: why hasn't that work been done already? That's why I'm trying to commit you to a time period. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Suzy, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 62?

Okay. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. We'll take a vote, then. The question is that amendment 62 is agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, i.e. against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 62 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 62: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 62: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

11:45

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 63 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 63 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative i.e. against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 63 is not agreed.  

Gwelliant 63: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 63: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 64 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 64 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Yes, I think is still works as a stand-alone, so yes, please. 

The question is that amendment 64 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, as there's an objection, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 64 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote. 

And I vote against. So, in relation to amendment 64, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders. Therefore, amendment 64 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 64: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 64: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 9: Addysg heblaw yn yr ysgol (Gwelliannau 65, 67, 68)
Group 9: Education otherwise than at school (EOTAS) (Amendments 65, 67, 68)

That takes us on to group 9, which relates to education otherwise than at school. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 65 in the name of Suzy Davies. I call on Suzy to move her amendment and to speak to her other amendments in this group. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 65 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 65 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. The amendments in this—. I move the lead amendment, sorry. These amendments, these are tabled in response to recommendations 38 to 41 in this committee's Stage 1 report, and they relate to the provision for children educated other than at school. We were worried, as the Bill allows for a slimmer curriculum for EOTAS children, that the provision may prove too unchallenging or not responsive to an individual's needs and barriers. We also wanted to be sure that such children were well placed to reintegrate into mainstream school if that was a possibility for them. Now, this was quite difficult to encapsulate legally, so the way we tried to do this was by, I'm afraid, the inclusion of another duty on Welsh Government, namely to have regard, again, to the ability, aptitude and existing level of learning of an individual pupil or child, and to take all reasonable steps to provide a range of learning options and experiences for that pupil or child, which will help that pupil or child progress in line with their potential. And that word 'progress' is the key ask from this amendment.  

Amendments 67 and 68 reflect our concerns that there is no appeals process for EOTAS children unhappy with their provision under this Bill, and officials have confirmed that a procedure does exist but it's in different legislation. Again, this is an unhappy consequence of this Bill referring back to different pieces of legislation, rather than starting from scratch as a consolidated Bill. To overcome that problem, these amendments then require teachers responsible for pupil referral units and local authorities responsible for other EOTAS children to publicise that appeals process, because if it is not found in this legislation, those individuals need to know where they can find it. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. Can I call the Minister, then? 

Thank you very much, Chair, and can I just say before directly addressing the amendments, the policy with regards to children receiving education in a PRU is that that child should be entitled to as broad and balanced curriculum as meets the needs and the potential of that child. I would be the first to accept that in previous—. You know, that we have struggled previously, and we know that, often, children receive a slimmed-down curriculum. 

With regards to integration, very best practice in this area often combines attendance at PRU and attendance at mainstream school. Again, in terms of best practice, we're always looking—and I know those professionals are—where at all possible to have children re-attend their mainstream school as soon as is possible, if that is in the best interests of the individual child. If we look at some of Estyn's reports into our very best PRUs, that is exactly the approach that the PRU embodies and actually implements.

But if I could turn to the amendments, Chair, I recommend that the committee resists amendment 65. The ability and aptitude requirement is mostly repeating what is already included in the requirements and implementation sections of Part 3. Also, the progression code will set out responsibilities for schools and settings to ensure a child progresses in line with their potential, and of course the progression code is statutory under this Bill.

I would also urge the committee to resist amendments 67 and 68, as there is already a duty on local authorities to have and to publish a complaints procedure for PRUs under paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 1 of the Education Act 1996, which Suzy Davies acknowledged. The local authority is the appropriate body to consider such disputes in relation to PRUs, and this amendment would lead to duplication. The Welsh Government's PRU management committee guidance also sets out that the PRU must have a complaints procedure related to the curriculum. It is good practice to have a complaints procedure that sets out how complaints about any aspect of the PRU can be registered, and in the case of complaints about the curriculum, the management committee must establish a complaints procedure. Therefore, these amendments are not necessary. Thank you.

11:50

Yes. Those were very helpful responses, Minister, so I thank you for those. I'd suppose, in response to the first point that you make, that policy intention needs backing up with legislative duties to ensure that it's delivered. While you've given me a response that you claim will achieve that, as we still haven't seen the final versions of quite a lot of the documentation that will be supporting the curriculum, once again you're asking us to make a decision based on trusting you—and I've no reason not to—but nevertheless we need, as I say, tools for children in particular to be able to challenge decisions that are made on their behalf. 

You mentioned that there's a complaints process set out in the education Act. This isn't the education Act; this is the Curriculum and Assessment Bill, and I just want to refer you to a separate Act, the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019, which you passed very recently and which is about accessibility to law in Wales. Again, I just reinforce this point. You mentioned good practice; I really don't think it is good practice for this primary legislature to keep making Bills that refer back to documents that are for England and Wales. It's a point you made yourself earlier that this is a Welsh statute for Welsh pupils and students, and I would have liked to have seen that consistency carried through here. But we are where we are. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 65?

Okay. The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] As we have an objection, we will take a vote by roll-call. The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, in relation to amendment 65, there voted three in favour, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, i.e. against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, and amendment 65 falls. 

Gwelliant 65: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 65: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 66 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 66 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 66 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will take a vote. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, so amendment 66 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 66: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 66: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 67 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 67 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will take a vote. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

11:55

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there is a tied vote, I cast my vote in the negative, i.e. against the amendment, and the amendment is not agreed.

Gwelliant 67: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 67: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 68 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 68 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, in relation to amendment 68, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, and amendment 68 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 68: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 68: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 10: Asesu a chynnydd (Gwelliannau 6, 69)
Group 10: Assessment and progression (Amendments 6, 69)

That takes us on to group 10, which relates to assessment and progression. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 6 in the name of the Minister.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 6 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 6 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 6 in the Minister's name, and call on the Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendment in this group. You're muted. There you are, you're okay.

Thank you very much, Chair, for that. I think it's just worth reminding colleagues and, indeed, people watching, if anybody is watching today, that I'd be the first to admit that there are sections of pieces of work—the RSE code being perhaps the most stark example—where some of that work hasn't been completed. But I should just remind Members that it is a year ago to this very week that we published the Curriculum for Wales, and that includes the progression code that we just discussed in the last set of amendments. So, the progression code is not work that is incomplete; it is work that has been out there for over a year now, and I think it's really important to remember that. But it's also important to understand the purpose of assessment and progression in the new curriculum. It's about understanding the needs of pupils and not about the accountability of schools, as that would risk distorting what schools do and is not in the spirit of what we are trying to achieve.

That said, assessment, of course, is vitally important, and I'm pleased to be able to respond to the committee's recommendation of changing the 'may' to a 'must' around making regulations for assessment. Amendment 6 has been made in response to the recommendation by this committee, and it means that Welsh Ministers will be under a duty to make regulations on assessment rather than having the power to do so. Our intention has always been to make regulations in order to implement the new assessment arrangements effectively, and I hope that this amendment will put that beyond any doubt.

However, I would strongly urge the committee to resist amendment 69, which seeks to require governing bodies to set annual targets in relation to pupil progression in the mandatory cross-curricular skills. This cuts against the fundamental principles of the Curriculum for Wales. Setting targets for attainment of cross-curricular skills conflates assessment with accountability, and such an approach is likely to encourage high-stakes assessment. Assessment should be used to support learning, and it should not be used to hold schools to account. Please, I don't want this to be misinterpreted: schools do need to be held to account, but we need to do that in a smart way.

Assessment in the Curriculum for Wales removes levels and targets in recognition that progression for all learners will be along a continuum of learning, but the pace of progress of individual learners through it may differ. It is also the case that placing targets on certain elements of the curriculum risks schools overemphasising these at the expense of other aspects of learning. The reason why these skills are cross-curricular is because they can only be developed and applied in the context of wider learning. Experience and evidence demonstrates that placing higher stakes on these elements risks pushing schools to try and develop them in isolation of wider learning, which, I believe, is harmful.

The progression code will set out the way in which the curriculum is to make provision for progression across the breadth and the depth of the curriculum, in line with learners' potential. The progression code will be statutory under this Bill and will ensure that there is a consistency of approach to progression in school curricula. A key principle of curriculum reform in Wales is that we should instead focus on ongoing evaluation of a wide range of information and the work of schools as a whole, reflecting strengths and, indeed, areas for improvement, and focusing resources on raising outcomes for learners and supporting progress for all learners, not just a narrow category of the cohort.

Whilst we do not consider that such an amendment fits with the principles of the Bill, if it was necessary, there are already powers available for Welsh Ministers to make regulations specifying performance targets for schools in section 19 of the Education Act 1997. Therefore, we do not consider that the amendment is needed.

12:00

Thank you, Minister. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Suzy Davies.

Yes, thank you, Chair, as I've got an amendment here. Yes, absolutely, to the Government's amendment. A power to introduce regulations to fill in the gaps left in Part 4 of the Bill, which deals with assessment and progression, I don't think was sufficient. As it stands, there would have been very little that was enforceable should the Government have decided not to make regulations, so I certainly welcome this movement on the part of the Minister, particularly as we still have concerns about the effect of the new curriculum on things like standards and the potential for increasing the attainment gap. So, we look forward to seeing further activity here once this part of the Bill is commenced.

In the meantime, I do recommend our amendment 69 to Members. You make a good case, Minister, but I just want to remind Members about what happened last year, when the Minister completed a two-part move, removing the responsibility on governors to set attainment targets in subjects of their choice. That's not what I'm trying to do here, by the way. But the purpose behind that was to remove the temptation for heads to insist on behaviours that were all about targets and not about learning.

As a committee, we have heard and we have understood that argument, but last year I called in that second set of regulations because I was worried that it would let schools off the hook in ensuring good attainment, as it was then, in maths and English or Welsh, and I thought that was a mistake as those two subjects were, and still are, the key qualifications for continuing in education or training, or access to the jobs market.

Now, my amendment seeks to introduce a push to ensure that schools cannot avoid their responsibility to equip all their learners with good progress in the new key skills, which are digital competence, literacy and numeracy. That they're mandatory skills is not good enough; they have to be provided to a high standard and, yes, schools should ensure that their pupils have high levels of achievement in them. They need that emphasis, and this is not about adverse teaching behaviour, and it's not about holding schools to account, but it is about ensuring that learners get the most from those cross-curricular skills.

So, I repeat that the amendment will require governors to set targets for these three cross-curricular skills, not for grades, but for ambitious progress, and any details to be determined in regulation. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Minister to reply to the debate. 

Thank you for that. I guess there is a difference in philosophical approach here with regard to the effectiveness of target setting of this kind. We are very clear that there is an expectation that children learn and progress against that progression code, and individual children will progress at different speeds, given their aptitudes and the fact that children come to learning and make progress at different points in their life. And therefore, the expectation is absolutely there. The setting of targets, as I said, gets us back into that dangerous loop of mixing assessment for learning with accountability. That leads, unfortunately, to a set of behaviour sometimes in schools that work against the best interests of individual learners.

The expectation here is progress for all learners, and getting back to the principle of what assessment should really be about, rather than conflating it, and therefore leading to a set of behaviours that is driven by the target rather than necessarily driven by the needs of the child and their ability to progress. That works against some of our children who find school a challenge, but it also works against some of our children who excel in school, because artificial caps, potentially, could be put on them, and those children aren't pushed as far as they can go and other members of the cohort get left behind because teachers feel that they're never going to reach targets. So, this is about, as I said, high expectations for all, and getting back to what assessment needs to be about, which is about progress rather than accountability. Thank you, Chair.

12:05

Thank you, Minister. Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 6?

The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections, so amendment 6 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 69 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 69 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 69 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I will take a vote. The question is that amendment 69 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, and amendment 69 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 69: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 69: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.36 that amendments 18 to 20 are grouped for a single vote. Does any Member object? Thank you.

Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 18, 19 ac 20 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendments 18, 19 and 20 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendments 18, 19 and 20 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendments 18, 19 and 20 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. Right. Okay. So the question is that amendments 18, 19 and 20 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one abstention, and amendments 18, 19 and 20 are agreed.

Gwelliannau 18, 19 ac 20: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliannau

Amendments 18, 19 and 20: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendments have been agreed

No, Chair, I won't move amendment 70. I may come back to this at Stage 3.

Okay, thank you. Does any other Member wish to move amendment 70? Okay, thank you. 

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 70 (Suzy Davies). 

Amendment 70 (Suzy Davies) not moved.

Grŵp 11: Iechyd meddwl a lles emosiynol (Gwelliant 7)
Group 11: Mental health and emotional well-being (Amendment 7)

That takes us on, then, to group 11, which relates to mental health and emotional well-being. The lead and only amendment in the group is amendment 7, in the name of the Minister.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 7 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 7 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 7 in the Minister's name and call on the Minister to speak to her amendment.

Thank you, Chair. I'm bringing forward this Government amendment in response to the committee's recommendation, and I quote,

'to include specific reference, on its face, to mental health and well-being and its place in the curriculum.'

I agree in principle with what the committee is trying to achieve, and I believe that this amendment is the most effective way to ensuring you bring benefit to learners. I'm of the view that this duty would put mental health in a unique position, signalling it is not simply a critical aspect of what is taught, but a system-wide consideration to inform every decision around curriculum. 

The Bill already places health and well-being at the heart of the curriculum as one of the areas of learning and experience, and the 'what matters' code will set out that mental health is a key concept within that area. This amendment supports that message, but it adopts a different approach. It requires schools and others to have regard to pupils' mental health and emotional well-being when exercising the functions placed upon them by or under this Bill. As such, this is additional to the provisions within the Bill as introduced. Guidance will be developed to assist schools and others to comply with this duty, and to ensure consistent, effective and proactive implementation. As a duty, it will relate to all pupils under the Act.

I share Members' concerns about the vulnerability of mental health and its critical importance for all of our learners. The national network outlined in the curriculum implementation plan will consider mental health as a key priority and will work with practitioners across Wales to raise awareness of key implementation issues and to develop approaches to support schools and inform professional learning. I will also review those parts of the 'what matters' code that deal with mental health and seek to strengthen them, emphasising the need for learners to recognise when and, crucially, where to seek help and support. Thank you, Chair.

12:10

Thank you very much, Minister. I wanted to speak on this amendment, and I'd like to thank the Minister for bringing forward this amendment and for listening to the committee, which, as you know, has prioritised mental health throughout this Senedd. I think it is extremely welcome that it is now going to be on the face of the Bill if this is passed, and that puts mental health in a unique position.

I wonder if, in responding, the Minister might say how she sees the guidance that will be produced under this new duty relating to the whole-school approach guidance. I think that would be very helpful, and in particular, I would like to welcome the commitment to review the 'what matters' statements to encourage young people to identify and seek support. I feel this is a major step forward, as we know that some young people, nobody knows that they're struggling until they actually end up dying by suicide, and I believe that if this is enshrined in law, it will increase help-seeking behaviour and save lives.

I would just, in conclusion, like to say, as well as thanking the Minister and the committee, I'd like to thank Mind Cymru and Samaritans Cymru, who have worked throughout on this issue with myself, and have attended meetings with the Minister and played a major role in pushing for this amendment. Diolch yn fawr.

Are there any other Members who would like to speak on this? Okay. The Minister to reply, then.

Thank you very much, Lynne. In answer to your question on the whole-school approach, indeed, we've moved now to a whole-systems approach, but the whole-school approach will be the bedrock on which the guidance that I've discussed will be drawn upon. We know, in our whole-school approach, that, whilst learning about the topic of mental health is, in itself, important, we need to create a culture within the school environment as a whole that promotes mental health and well-being for both children and staff. Therefore, this amendment goes way beyond and is a more innovative approach to simply listing a topic.

It is about creating an environment and a culture that puts at the very forefront, in designing a curriculum, aspects of mental health and well-being. And the Member is also absolutely right: to ensure that, when we are teaching children in our health and well-being AoLE, we need to focus very much on the ability of learners to reflect on their well-being and mental health; to be able to acknowledge what they're feeling; to be free of stigma in talking about what they're feeling; to be able to understand and to know where to get help; and crucially, as a result of this amendment, knowing that, when they speak out, they will be speaking out in a school environment that is prepared to respond to that proactively with empathy and gets it right the first time. So, it goes beyond simply teaching, it's about creating an atmosphere that supports children, both in their academic learning, but also in how they feel about being in the school environment. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 7?

The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 7 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Grŵp 12: Dyletswyddau: Confensiynau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig (Gwelliannau 71, 72)
Group 12: Duties: United Nations Conventions (Amendments 71, 72)

That takes us on to group 12, which relates to duties and United Nations conventions. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 71 in the name of Suzy Davies. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 71 and to speak to her other amendment in this group. Suzy.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 71 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 71 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Well, Members, here we are again, with amendment 71. The traditional response to this legislature trying to reinforce our commitment to pay due regard to children's rights by including it on the face of Bills, is usually met with the Executive referring to the children's rights Measure—a piece of legislation that predates this place even having primary law-making powers. So, let's get our laws up to date.

The Measure is 10 years old and needs a refresh anyway. But, in the absence of a new, consolidated law on UN rights, you and other Ministers, I'm afraid, will continue to see amendments like this come back time after time, because Wales's lawmakers think that it is both important and necessary. For those of us who want to see the due regard duty attached to some of the public bodies responsible for delivering your policies in our laws, this reinforcement in primary legislation is a strong message about what they need to be doing even if they are not obliged to.

As for amendment 72, the precedent is already set. The Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 includes on its face the duty to have due regard to the provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and that's just as relevant in this Bill here. The curriculum is built not just on areas of learning, but on areas of learning and experience, and schools may need some support getting to grips with applying the social model of disability in a more experiential curriculum. So, I think this is an amendment that adds good implementation without taking anything away from the Bill. Thank you.

12:15

Thank you, Suzy. Are there other Members who would like to speak? I'd like to just say, then, Minister, that, as you are aware, children's rights have also been absolutely fundamental to the work of this committee. Indeed, we have regularly pursued the need to further enshrine children's rights in primary legislation.

I recognise that you have concerns about Suzy Davies's amendments, and I wonder if I could ask you for some assurances that you may do some work on what more the Government could do to respond to the committee's concerns about children's rights in advance of Stage 3. If there's no-one else to speak, I'll call the Minister.

Thank you, Chair. I recognise the intention behind these amendments, but Members of the committee will not be surprised to hear me say that I cannot accept them. I have accepted recommendation 12 of the committee's end of Stage 1 report, for the Welsh Government to consider how it can ensure human rights, including children's rights, as we secure the long term within the curriculum for Wales.

It's important to recognise that this is a curriculum for all learners. As I set out in my response to the committee, the Bill has been developed to be fully inclusive. Regardless of a child's abilities, they are entitled to teaching and learning under the curriculum for Wales. The UNCRC and the UNCRPD are aimed at states. Accordingly, it is for the Government to ensure compliance through their laws, administrative actions and other appropriate measures. That's an important principle, and this convention is not targeted at front-line providers of service.

I am concerned that teachers, schools and governing bodies would be faced with additional layers of red tape, bureaucracy and concerns, and having to demonstrate that every single decision taken under this Bill on the curriculum could be subject to these challenges, and they would have to be able to demonstrate in each and every example how that had happened. I think that places a burden above and beyond what is reasonable on an individual service provider, but not unreasonable when it comes to expectations on the state, which I think is perfectly appropriate, and we have evidenced that in this process so far.

The philosophy in the approach to the UNCRC is embedded throughout the new curriculum. The statements of 'what matters' in the humanities AoLE, published last year, include the need for learners to understand their rights and engage with the concept of rights more generally. This is a mandatory part of every school's curriculum, going forward. Supporting this, the proposed curriculum for Wales, again published last year, provided clear guidance on human rights learning and education.

This includes explicit reference to children's rights and the UNCRC, and has been developed in close collaboration with the Office of the Children's Commissioner for Wales. Headteachers and governing bodies of schools will be obliged to design, adopt and implement a curriculum that does include learning on children's rights and the UNCRC. To accompany this, and to ensure that our teachers are able to provide high-quality, dynamic and innovative learning on children's rights, I will indeed, Chair, look again at what further work we can do as a Government, and I will look to put forward an amendment at Stage 3, so that it is a legal requirement for schools and other settings to promote knowledge and understanding of the UNCRC and the UNCRPD, as well as a requirement to ensure that staff are aware and can use that knowledge for their thinking and planning purposes as they design their curriculum.

Therefore, I do not support amendment 71 and 72, and I urge the committee to reject them. However, I would like to offer this opportunity to the mover of the amendments to work with me in the way outlined in this discussion on what more we can do to strengthen the committee's feelings in this regard, whilst striking that balance between promoting rights and ensuring that there's a manageable situation for individual headteachers and schools.

12:20

Thank you very much for that offer, Minister. It's just to reassure Members that the purpose of these amendments wasn't to compel the people listed in them to subject themselves to onerous requirements. The exercise of due regard, and we'll come to this in a different group, will be different in different cases, but I am pleased that the Minister's extended the offer she has, and I hope she extends it to all committee members, not just to me, in order to secure an amendment at Stage 3 that appeals to us all. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Suzy, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 71?

No, I don't need to, or 72 in these circumstances. Thank you. 

Does anybody else wish to move amendment 71 or 72? No. Okay. Thank you. 

Tynnwyd gwelliant 71 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.

Amendment 71 withdrawn by leave of the committee.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 72 (Suzy Davies). 

Amendment 72 (Suzy Davies) not moved.

Grŵp 13. Darparu gwybodaeth (Gwelliant 73)
Group 13: Provision of information (Amendment 73)

That takes us on to group 13 then, which relates to the provision of information. The lead and only amendment in the group is amendment 73 in the name of Suzy Davies. Suzy, I call on you to move amendment 73 and to speak to your amendment. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 73 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 73 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, I move amendment 73. I think this is an important addition to the Bill, actually, Members, and it kind of resolves some of the concerns that were raised by the Minister in the previous group that we debated. And, again, if the Minister isn't minded to accept this, then I'm inviting her to come back with her own amendment at Stage 3 to deal with the point that I'm raising. 

Amendment 73 acknowledges the fact that there are a number of places in this Bill where duties are imposed on individuals and others to have regard to a variety of information, some of that statutory. Now, as far as I know—I might be wrong on this—but 'have regard' or 'due regard' has no definition in law. And I'm sure that all of us, at one time or another, have been involved in casework or local campaigns when individuals, public bodies or even Government had decisions to make which were only capable of being made after having regard to some criteria or other. And how often are we told, when challenging those decisions, that, yes, of course due regard was given but no or at least little evidence has been offered on how it was exercised? So, if our constituents are to have a meaningful right to reasonably challenge decisions made under this legislation, then they must have the tools to do the job, and that means clarity on process. 

Having regard can be different for different duties, and that's why I'm not attempting to put something on the face of the Bill about what that would look like. But in each case, those exercising the duty to have regard should be in a position to confirm that they have met minimum requirements on what and how they should consider in deciding the question in front of them, and should also be able to demonstrate fair exercise of their regard duty by producing evidence that have met those minimum requirements. Now, this is not meant to be an onerous, bureaucratic step. The evidential requirements introduced via regulation must be proportionate to the effect of the regard, and as with all good procedures, they are there to protect both the complainant and the complained of. So, if we're good legislators, we must close down the need for judicial review by being clear with these boring, administrative bits of our legislation, and that's what this amendment is about. We spend a lot of our time now talking about 'having regard' in our legislation without being clear what is expected in the process of exercising 'having regard', and that's why I commend this recommendation within this Bill to Members. 

12:25

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who wish to speak, please? Can I call the Minister, then?  

Thank you, Chair. I resist this amendment. As has been indicated, this amendment is linked to amendments 71 and 72 and, for the reasons set out in relation to those amendments in group 12, I also urge Members to resist this amendment. In addition, though, this amendment has a further disadvantage in that it would insert into the Bill a duty on our front-line workforce to provide information on how they're implementing their 'having regard' duties under certain provisions, and it would place, I believe, an unhelpful and unnecessary additional burden on those listed. 

Placing this administrative burden on headteachers and governing bodies, and funded non-maintained nurseries, management committees, all teachers in charge of PRUs, I think, takes them away from their core function in educating our children. In relation to reviewing and revising their curriculum, they would have to provide information on how they were implementing their due regard duties, and in relation to assessment arrangements, they would have to set out how they were having regard to that also. Teachers in charge, management committees and EOTAS providers would also have to provide information on how they are having regard to the ability, aptitude and existing level of learning of an individual pupil or child.

Now, I appreciate that it is a very, very long time ago, and sometimes we can forget where this journey began. 'Successful Futures' makes clear that this is precisely the behaviour the new curriculum framework should actually seek to avoid. So, I would, therefore, ask the committee to resist amendment 73. 

Thank you, Minister. This is about the law every bit as much as about education. We have constituents who have decisions made about them every single day, many of which they are happy with, some of which they're not. Some of those which they're not happy with, it's kind of tough, because there you can prove or, at least, the people making those decisions can show that they've followed the process that protects not just our constituents, but the decision makers themselves, and that's all this is aiming to do. None of us wants our constituents, whether they be people listed in the amendments or our everyday residents, to end up looking at the administrative courts to sort out disputes. We are poor legislators if that's all we leave them with. And that's why, as I say, I'm inviting you to come back at Stage 3. If you've got a better version of this, I'm more than happy to consider that. But you need to give constituents the tools to do the job in allowing this piece of legislation to operate in a way that benefits everybody. Thank you.  

Thank you, Suzy. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 73? 

Well, it's only one amendment, so yes, Chair. Thank you. 

Okay. The question is that amendment 73 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection. So, we will vote. The question is that amendment 73 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote? 

And I vote against. So, there voted two in favour, three against, with one abstention. So, amendment 73 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 73: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 73: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

The committee will now break for lunch and return at 13:15. Thank you, everyone.  

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 12:29 a 13:17. 

The meeting adjourned between 12:29 and 13:17. 

13:15

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 12:29 ac 13:17.

The meeting adjourned between 12:29 and 13:17.

Grŵp 14: Dyletswyddau a chanllawiau cyffredinol (Gwelliannau 21, 22, 23, 24, 74, 75, 76, 46, 77, 78)
Group 14: General duties and guidance (Amendments 21, 22, 23, 24, 74, 75, 76, 46, 77, 78)

Welcome back, everyone, to Stage 2 proceedings on the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill. The next group that we have to deal with is group 14, which relates to general duties and guidance. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 21, in the name of the Minister. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 21 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 21 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 21 in the Minister's name and call on the Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Thank you, Chair. Amendment 21 adds a new section to Part 6 of the Bill to ensure co-operation between listed persons where they consider it would facilitate the exercise of their functions under the Bill. Amendments 22 and 23 make minor technical corrections to sections 64 and 65 of the Bill. Amendment 24 moves the 'Duty to have regard to guidance' section to the end of Part 6. This will make it clear that the guidance-issuing power may be exercised in relation to the exercise of functions under all the sections that precede it. I urge the Members to support amendments 21 through to 24.

If I could then turn to the amendments laid by the Members of the committee. I resist amendment 74, which would insert a deadline for publishing statutory guidance on RSE and RVE. The RSE guidance has been co-constructed by practitioners, stakeholders, and experts over the last two years. Initial RSE draft guidance has been consulted upon, and a further draft will be subject to a public consultation, as we've discussed earlier today, later on this year.

The supporting framework for RVE has also been constructed with practitioners and experts over the last two years. Previous drafts have been shared, and a further draft will be shared prior to formal consultation later this year. The intention is to publish the final versions of the guidance, following consultation, before the end of 2021. Practitioners will play an important role in developing the guidance, and I acknowledge that schools and other settings are under considerable strain at the moment, and I appreciate that our asks are adding to those pressures. But placing this deadline will remove necessary flexibility. I do not anticipate a change in the timetable, but we have to keep that under review.

I also resist amendment 75. Regulations will be made to implement the new assessment arrangements effectively, and I've tabled an amendment to put this beyond doubt. Regulations made under section 58 will prescribe operational and technical detail, which will be largely self-explanatory. Draft supporting learner progression and assessment guidance was issued in January of last year as part of the Curriculum for Wales guidance, and this guidance will be updated, following the passage of the Bill and will include relevant guidance on the implementation of subordinate legislation on assessment falling from the Bill. Placing a requirement on Ministers to issue guidance in respect of these regulations I don't believe is necessary, and elements that need further explanation or clarity will be covered in the assessment guidance. Talking about guidance, I have not accepted the earlier amendments linked to amendment 76, and therefore I will not be accepting this amendment.

Earlier today we covered the principles around Welsh history, including black and people of colour history. I think it's important to recognise, once again, that the proposed 'what matters' code includes, as mandatory, an appreciation of identity, heritage and cynefin, cultivating in learners a sense of place and a sense of belonging, as embodied in the Welsh word 'cynefin', and also consistent exposure to the story of learners' locality and, indeed, the story of Wales. The guidance is also clear, as I said earlier, that diversity should not be limited to within the humanities, but concepts of diversity should be embedded across the curriculum. Therefore, I resist amendment 46.

With regard to amendments 77 and 78, they insert, as we discussed earlier and debated earlier, powers for the Welsh Ministers to include in guidance how lifesaving skills, first aid, menstrual well-being and other things should be reflected in the adopted curriculum. I resist these recommendations, as section 66(1) already enables Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to those with functions under the Bill, if necessary. Also, as I mentioned earlier, within the health and well-being AoLE, teachers will be able to focus on a wide range of health and well-being topics, and I hope to include puberty and menstrual well-being as a key part of our RSE code. We discussed issues around lifesaving skills earlier.

With regard to ongoing involvement and co-construction, I think we'll talk later on, will we not, about evaluation? I therefore urge Members to resist amendments 74, 75, 76, 46, 77 and 78. Thank you.

13:20

Thank you, Minister. Are there other Members who'd like to speak? I've got Suzy first.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, Minister. I have to say we don't actually have any issue with the consequential amendments tabled by Welsh Government and, actually, amendment 76, it strikes me, reflects the same kind of concerns as our own amendments. So, I think we will be supporting that.

These amendments are here, Minister, to once again highlight the delay in bringing forward the meaningful material that we can scrutinise and on which schools can rely when preparing to deliver RSE and RVE—these very sensitive areas of the curriculum. So, this is basically a nudge to get your sets of guidance done before the curriculum is implemented. That's why we've set a time frame on it, and to give us some comfort that support for this Bill, should we give it, is at least retrospectively informed.

Amendment 75 refers back to the regulations that Ministers may make under Part 4, and it requires Ministers to publish guidance on how to comply with as yet unseen regulations that are necessary for that part of the Bill to be scrutinised. Yes, you've given us various reassurances during the course of the debate today, but until we see the final version of this Bill, we can't be 100 per cent sure that your assurances will be capable of being acted on. I certainly don't make any observations on you trying to mislead us in any way—absolutely not.

Amendment 76, I won't be moving that, because it's effectively consequential on early amendments that fell. And amendments 77 and 78, again, I hear what you've said on these, Minister, but I think a vote on these today again puts down a marker that, regardless of levels of co-construction and various codes and guidance, these two elements must be given real visibility. In your contribution to opening this debate, you mentioned a couple of times that schools are going to be able to look at these amongst a whole, wide range of things, and I don't object to that, obviously, but a whole, wide range of things means that these two elements—that is, lifesaving skills and menstrual well-being—could maybe not get the attention that I, moving these amendments, believe they deserve. Thank you.

13:25

Thank you, Suzy. Siân, do you wish to speak to your amendment? No, okay. Thank you. If nobody else wants to speak, I'll call the Minister to reply.

Chair, I have nothing further to add. I accept Suzy Davies's nudge, and we'll be working as hard as we can to provide the clarity that she not unreasonably asks for.

Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 21?

The question is that amendment 21 be agreed. Does any Member object? There's no objection, therefore amendment 21 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 22 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 22 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 22, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 22 be agreed. Does any Member object? There's no objection, so amendment 22 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 23 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 23 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 23 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 23 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 23 is, therefore, agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 8 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 8 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 8, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, okay, amendment 8 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 24 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 24 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 24, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 24 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, okay. Well, amendment 24 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 74 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 74 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 74 be agreed. Does any Member object? I can't hear you, Dawn.

Thank you. We'll take a vote, then. The question is that amendment 74 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, i.e. against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders. So, amendment 74 falls.

Gwelliant 74: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 74: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 75 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 75 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As it's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, and amendment 75 falls.

Gwelliant 75: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 75: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Suzy, you indicated you didn't want to move amendment 76.

Does anybody else want to move amendment 76? No, okay, thank you.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 76 (Suzy Davies). 

Amendment 76 (Suzy Davies) not moved.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 46 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 46 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Does any Member—? Oh, sorry. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Orders, and amendment 46 falls.

Gwelliant 46: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 46: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 77 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 77 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

Laura Jones.

For.

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. There's a tied vote, so I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, and amendment 77 falls.

13:30

Gwelliant 77: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 77: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 78 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 78 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Dawn, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment in accordance with Standing Orders, and amendment 78 falls.

Gwelliant 78: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 78: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 15: Plant a phersonau ifanc sydd wedi eu cadw (Gwelliant 25)
Group 15: Detained children and young persons (Amendment 25)

We'll move on now then to group 15, which relates to detained children and young persons. The lead and only amendment in the group is amendment 25 in the name of the Minister.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 25 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 25 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 25 in the Minister's name, and I call on her to speak to her amendment

Thank you, Chair. As you say, amendment 25 relates to detained children and detained young people. This amendment inserts a new section into the Bill that gives Welsh Ministers the power to make regulations to apply provisions in the Bill to the detained children and the detained young persons specified in the regulations. The key point here is that it won’t be possible to apply any aspect of this new curriculum to detained children or detained young persons unless the amendment is passed, as those children or young people won’t be in settings to which the Bill would otherwise apply, and I would appreciate Members' support for the amendment.

Thank you, Minister. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. Minister, obviously, there's no debate to reply to. I'm assuming that you still wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 25.

The question is amendment 25 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Thank you. Amendment 25, then, is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Grŵp 16: Adrodd (Gwelliant 79)
Group 16: Reporting (Amendment 79)

Which takes us to group 16 on reporting. The lead and only amendment in the group is amendment 79 in the name of Suzy Davies, and I call on Suzy to move amendment 79 and speak to her amendment.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 79 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 79 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, I move amendment 79. Minister, this may be a debate where you may disagree with the amendment as it's drafted, but where we might be able to come to some accord on its purpose in preparation for Stage 3. As you know, despite our broad support for the principles of the Bill, we still have concerns about how it will actually work and what effect it will have on our children, our nursery and school workforces, on standards and on the attainment gap. Our minds have not really been put at rest by being asked to pass legislation when we cannot test policy intent against operational detail. I think we've heard some reassurances from you today, but the unwillingness to accept some amendments that were designed to ensure that we have some detail before implementation just enhances my concerns, rather than reassures me overall.

The consequence of this is that we would like the next Minister to report to us frequently on those areas of concern, and so I've included some of them: progress on embedding the whole-school or maybe whole-system approach as it is now, the upskilling of teachers and the costs of that, but they are just indicative. I think we would all be very interested to understand better how the new mental health provision in this Bill will be working, for example, so, I would certainly welcome additions at Stage 3.

And, again, because of those concerns that I've mentioned, I don't think it's unreasonable for us, at least initially, to have annual reports over the period of that first cohort of secondary schoolchildren's experience as they go from year 7 to year 13, because, by then, schools should really have achieved the culture as well as the system change that this will need. And so, thereafter, a report once every Senedd would be more than enough to supplement whatever is provided by Estyn and other relevant offices.

The Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services was kind enough to agree to an amendment introducing a sensible reporting provision to help allay lingering concerns held by the committee about the effect of the Bill that removed the defence of reasonable punishment for assault, and that's the approach I'm coming to you with today. So, I hope you'll be of a similar view as regards this Bill, and will be willing, if not to accept this amendment, to discuss an amendment at Stage 3 that includes a sensible and purposeful reporting regime to support the aims of this Bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members of the committee who wish to speak? Can I call on the Minister, then?

13:35

Thank you, Chair. I would recommend that the committee resists amendment 79. I have published the curriculum implementation plan, which sets out very clearly our priority areas of work for curriculum realisation. It also—in line with the regulatory impact assessment—sets out our intention around evaluation and understanding progress. Our curriculum implementation plan already commits to annual reporting from Welsh Government on the progress of implementation, and the wider impacts of the reform on our well-being goals as a nation. That is, it'll focus on the difference that our reforms are making to learners, and our aim that they should embody the four purposes, and as a nation, we should achieve excellence in education and close the attainment gap.

Alongside this, of course, will sit the work of our partner organisations; indeed, the schools themselves, who are already subject to widespread reporting and data requirements, our regional school improvement services and of course the role of our inspectorate, Estyn. As always, I am keen to find ways of accountability that add value and work and I certainly don't want to avoid any scrutiny that future Senedds may want to make of the implementation of the curriculum, but as I said, we have already committed ourselves to an annual evaluation and report to the Senedd, so that scrutiny can be undertaken.

Can I thank the Minister for her reply? And of course this amendment was tabled before the implementation plan was published, so I appreciate that there are some reassurances contained in that. What I would ask you to consider, though, before I decide whether to move—well, I've already moved it, but ask for permission to withdraw this amendment—is how you think the committee, or indeed individual Members, might be able to inform the subject areas on which the annual reporting in the implementation plan might be designed, because there may be things that we would like to see on behalf of our constituents that maybe aren't in your mind at the moment. I mean, will there be opportunities at a future point to help add things, or even take away things, from what you're planning to report on in the future? Maybe that's a conversation before Stage 3, because there'll be no point me actually calling for a vote on this amendment if there is an opportunity to have that discussion before the implementation of the Bill.

Thank you, Suzy. So, are you saying you don't want to proceed to a vote on amendment 79?

Well, there's been quite a lot of nodding from the Minister there, so yes, I won't move this if Members are happy.

Okay. Does any Member, then, object to amendment 79 being withdrawn? No. Okay, thank you. That's withdrawn, then.

Tynnwyd gwelliant 79 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.

Amendment 79 withdrawn by leave of the committee.

I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.36 that amendments 26 to 28 are grouped for a single vote. Does any Member object? Okay.

Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 26, 27 a 28 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendments 26, 27 and 28 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendments 26, 27 and 28 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendments 26, 27 and 28 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we will take a vote. The question is that amendments 26, 27 and 28 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. There are five votes in favour, one abstention, so amendments 26, 27 and 28 are agreed.

Gwelliannau 26, 27 a 28: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliannau

Amendments 26, 27 and 28: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendments have been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 29 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 29 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 29 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 29 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. The question is that amendment 29 be agreed. How do you vote, Dawn Bowden?

And I vote for. So, there are five in favour, one abstention, and amendment 29 is therefore agreed.

13:40

Gwelliant 29: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 29: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 30 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 30 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 30 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 30 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll go to a vote. The question is amendment 30 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. There voted five in favour and one abstention, so amendment 30 is agreed. 

Gwelliant 30: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 30: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

I move amendment 30, then, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 30—[Interruption.] Thirty-one? Okay. Sorry. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 31 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 31 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 31 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 31 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. The question is that amendment 31 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. There are three abstentions and three votes in favour, so amendment 31 is agreed.

Gwelliant 31: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 31: For: 3, Against: 0, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 32 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 32 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 32 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 32 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 32 be agreed. Dawn, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one abstention. That amendment, then, is agreed. 

Gwelliant 32: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 32: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 33 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 33 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 33 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 33 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 33 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote? 

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one abstention. Amendment 33 is agreed. 

Gwelliant 33: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 33: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 34 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 34 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 34 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 34 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, so we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 34 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, there voted three in favour and three abstentions, so amendment 34 is agreed.

Gwelliant 34: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 34: For: 3, Against: 0, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.36, that amendments 35 to 40 are grouped for a single vote. Does any Member object? Okay. Thank you.

Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 a 40 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendments 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendments 35 to 40 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendments 35 to 40 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We have an objection, so we'll take a vote. The question is that amendments 35 to 40 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, there voted five in favour, one abstention. Amendments 35 to 40 are agreed. 

Gwelliant 35: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliannau

Amendment 35: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendments have been agreed

Grŵp 17: Cyffredinol (gan gynnwys diffiniadau a gweithdrefnau deddfwriaethol ar gyfer Codau a Rheoliadau) (Gwelliannau 80, 81, 9, 82, 10, 11, 12, 47, 48, 13, 49, 83, 84, 14)
Group 17: General (including definitions and legislative procedures for Codes and Regulations) (Amendments 80, 81, 9, 82, 10, 11, 12, 47, 48, 13, 49, 83, 84, 14)

That takes us on, then, to group 17, which is our final group and relates to general matters including definitions and legislative procedures for codes and regulations. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 80 in the name of Suzy Davies. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 80 and to speak to her other amendments in this group. Suzy.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 80 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 80 (Suzy Davies) moved.

Thank you very much, Chair. At this point in Stage 2, everyone's brains are pretty much fried, so it's always fun to finish with the procedures for secondary legislation. In summary, we're happy with most of the amendments in this group. They mean that regulations introduced at various places in this Bill will be subject to an improved level of parliamentary scrutiny. I think that's going to be important for reasons referred to in other debates today. In short, we're making decisions about this Bill on the basis of incomplete information, so if any of that changes materially or is supplemented with regulations that include new procedures that constituents have to follow, then we should be in a position to scrutinise those changes or additions. Amendment 80 achieves this for AoLEs. Amendments 81 and 82 do it for the section 58 assessment arrangements, and those respond to committee recommendations as well. 

I'm grateful to the Minister for her movements on some of these processes. I think your experience of sitting where we're sitting does give you the edge over colleagues who've never had to argue for influence on legislation. I am, however, going to push the point made by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and, indeed, this committee, as regards the procedures to be attached to various codes. I can see that amendment 48 is a very sensible proposal that all codes be introduce by the affirmative procedure. That would be our second choice, because we are looking at a sea change in our education system without sight of some of these codes, some of these documents, which are critical to our understanding of how to turn ambitions and concepts into teachable material. 

I think, therefore, there is an argument for the first iteration of all codes to be introduced via the enhanced affirmative procedure. I've only tabled amendments on two. I accept that's inconsistent. Amendment 82 is for the 'what matters' code and amendment 83 for the progression code, as that what the committee's recommended. But it does mean, because of the order we're voting in, that I'm having to recommend we abstain on other amendments dealing with the codes, and maybe reconsider a consistent set of amendments at Stage 3 if I think by then they're still necessary. Thank you.

13:45

Thank you, Suzy. Are there any other Members who'd like to speak? No. Can I call on the Minister, then?

Thank you, Chair. Could I ask Members to resist amendment 80? We would use this power to impose further curriculum requirements if there was evidence that there was a narrowing of the curriculum in Wales. We would want to act swiftly in this case and, as such, the negative procedure, I believe, is appropriate for this. I don't believe the affirmative procedure is the appropriate one for these regulations, as I do not consider that the regulations would contain matters of very special importance. There is an equivalent regulation-making power for the local curriculum in section 116A of the Education Act 2002. Those regulations are subject to the negative procedure, and the application of the negative procedure in these regulations is therefore consistent with current practice.

With regard to amendment 81, again, I would ask the committee to resist. The subordinate legislation made under this section will set out operational and technical detail in relation to assessment.  Assessment is an area where best practice often evolves quickly. Applying the negative procedure will allow the Welsh Ministers to respond promptly to any changes. The approach taken in the Bill is consistent with the existing arrangements. Regulations currently prescribing assessment arrangements under section 108 of the Education Act 2002 follow the negative procedure. Whilst this is not a reason in itself for adopting the negative procedure for new regulations—I accept that—the procedure applied is consistent with current practice.

With regard to amendment 9, I would urge the committee's support in this regard. Amendment 9 is in response to the LJC committee recommendation 10, where I introduce a provision to make certain regulations subject to the draft affirmative procedure. The regulations in question are regulations made under section 50 to disapply or modify curriculum requirements. This amendment adds those regulations to the list of regulations in section 71 that would be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Could I ask the committee to resist amendment 82? The affirmative procedure is already going to be applied to regulations under section 50 by the amendment that I've just discussed, and I've already explained, in connection with amendment 81, why the negative procedure, I believe, is more appropriate for regulations made under section 58 about assessment arrangements.

I've proposed amendment 10 in response to the LJC committee so that any regulations made under section 70 that amend primary legislation will be subject to the draft affirmative procedure. Regulations making provision for amending secondary legislation would be subject to negative procedure, and therefore I would ask colleagues to support amendment 10.

I proposed amendment 11 in order to define what is meant by 'primary legislation', as referred to in amendment 10. The definition provides clarity as to when the affirmative procedure will apply to regulations made under section 70, and I would hope the committee felt able to support it.

I have put forward amendments 12 and 13 in response to the committee's recommendation in its report. This will mean that the RSE code and any future revisions to that code will be subject to the affirmative procedure. I hope again that these amendments will be met with support by members of the committee.

With regard to amendment 44 and amendment 47, as they relate to the teaching of Welsh, we previously, this morning, rehearsed those arguments, and I hope Members of the committee will resist.

I strongly resist amendment 48 and urge Members to do so. I've already laid an amendment to make the RSE code subject to the affirmative procedure. I have done so because its contents covers matters that are particularly sensitive, and I recognise, at this stage, Members do not have sight of it, and therefore we've acted accordingly. But, as mentioned, the other codes are technical, professional documents developed by a process of co-construction in close collaboration with practitioners. If we make them subject to affirmative procedures, then I do think that we are second-guessing the whole process and suggesting that the hard work that has gone into them potentially could be undermined.

I resist amendment 49, and urge the committee to do the same. I set out earlier my plans for how we will support the teaching of Welsh within English-medium settings, and urge Members to resist 49. 

Again, I urge Members to resist amendment 83. The 'what matters' code is available now, unlike the RSE code. Members, and indeed, everybody, has been able to see the 'what matters' code. It's a technical professional document that has been developed over a long period of time in close collaboration with practitioners. Any changes to the code would have to be co-constructed with practitioners, continuing to use their professional judgment and expertise. Also, the code is likely to have to be updated in order to respond to changing circumstances in schools in the longer term, and we consider that the negative procedure provides the appropriate level of flexibility to allow this to happen in a reasonable time frame. The key principles are set out on the face of the Bill, such as the AoLEs themselves, and what a curriculum must provide in relation to them, and therefore I would urge the committee to resist amendment 83.

I would also ask the committee to resist amendment 84 for the same reasons. The progression code is a technical, professional document that has been developed in close collaboration with practitioners. It has been available for scrutiny for a considerable period of time, and any changes to the code will be co-constructed, once again, with practitioners, continuing to use their professional judgment and experience. But I accept that the code is likely to be updated in order to respond to changing circumstances in schools in the longer term, and we believe that the negative procedure provides the appropriate level of flexibility to allow that to happen in a reasonable time frame.

I have proposed amendment 14 as it is required to update the entry for 'course of study' in the index of defined expressions in section 78, and it is linked to amendment 8. I would appreciate the committee's support for amendment 14. Thank you.

13:50

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your answers, Minister. Just a few points, picking up from what you said.

Amendment 80 does refer to processes relating to the narrowing of the curriculum, and I think that would be a question of interest to all of us as legislators, because obviously we are offering our conditional support to you at the moment on the basis of what we've already seen, so if anything is going to narrow or reduce what we've assumed is going to be happening, then at least we should be able to have some opportunity to scrutinise it. It may well be, as so often happens with affirmative procedure regulations, that actually they go through quite quickly and there's no delay built into the system, and I'm hoping that the kind of changes you're talking about would fall into that category, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't actually be allowed, as legislators, to have the opportunity to scrutinise it within the legislative process. You will know that the fact that negative procedures are applied in existing processes or under different pieces of legislation doesn't really carry any weight with the committees in this Parliament.

Perhaps I can talk about the codes for a minute. Now, I don't think any of us would even consider the fact that we'd be second guessing codes that have been put together and co-constructed with the profession—that's not what we're talking about here. This is about us having the opportunity to ask questions about those codes within the legislative process. The fact that the codes exist now at the moment is fine, but if they're going to be added to or changed, even the process for introducing them should afford us as Members the opportunity to scrutinise them at that point. And again, it's probably going to be one of those situations where an affirmative procedure actually is more than good enough. I suspect, with the RSE one, for the reasons that you actually mentioned—the sensitive nature of them—Members should have the opportunity to consult on them first before they scrutinise them. And that's why, for Stage 2, certainly, I'll be sticking with an enhanced affirmative procedure for at least two of them. I think that's probably all I need to say on it, but thank you very much, Minister.

13:55

Thank you, Suzy. So, if amendment 80 is agreed, amendments 81, 9, 82 and 10 will fall. Suzy, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 80?

Okay. The question is that amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? I can't hear you, Dawn. [Objection.] Thank you. We'll take a vote, then. The question is that amendment 80 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, and amendment 80 falls. 

Gwelliant 80: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 80: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

If amendment 81 is agreed, amendments 9, 82 and 10 will fall. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 81?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 81 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 81 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against, and I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, and amendment 81 falls.

Gwelliant 81: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 81: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

If amendment 9 is agreed, amendment 82 will fall. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 9 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 9 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 9 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, we have four in favour, two abstentions, and amendment 9 is agreed.

Gwelliant 9: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 9: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Methodd gwelliant 82.

Amendment 82 fell.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 10 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 10 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 10, then, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Okay, so amendment 10 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 11 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 11 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 11 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 11 be agreed. Does any Member object? Okay, amendment 11 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 12 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 12 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 12 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote, then. The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

14:00

And I vote for. So, we have four in favour, two abstentions, and that amendment is agreed.

Gwelliant 12: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 12: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 47 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 47 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote? 

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. So, as there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment.

Gwelliant 47: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 47: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 48 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 48 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 48 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, the vote was one in favour, three against, two abstentions, so the amendment is not agreed.

Gwelliant 48: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 2

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 48: For: 1, Against: 3, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 13 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 13 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 13, then, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 13 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 13 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote for. So, we have four in favour, two abstentions, and that amendment is agreed. 

Gwelliant 13: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 13: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 49 (Siân Gwenllian).

Amendment 49 (Siân Gwenllian) moved.

The question is that amendment 49 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote, then. The question is that amendment 49 is agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote? 

And I vote against. So, there voted one in favour, three against, two abstentions, and amendment 49 falls.

Gwelliant 49: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 2

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 49: For: 1, Against: 3, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 83 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 83 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

For. Okay, and I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, i.e. against the amendment, which has fallen.

Gwelliant 83: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 83: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 84 (Suzy Davies).

Amendment 84 (Suzy Davies) moved.

The question is that amendment 84 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. The question is that amendment 84 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. So, there voted three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote against the amendment, and amendment 84 falls.

Gwelliant 84: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 84: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 14 (Kirsty Williams).

Amendment 14 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move amendment 14, then, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 14 be agreed. Does any Member object? Okay. Thank you. Amendment 14 is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

And that was our final amendment, so we have come to the end of our session. I'd like to thank the Minister and her officials for her attendance. As usual, we'll send you a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy. This completes Stage 2 proceedings, and Stage 3 begins on Monday. The relevant dates for Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course.

Standing Orders makes provision for the Minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of the amendments agreed today. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings. Thank you very much. And can I just thank Members as well for their attendance today, and thank our very hardworking committee team for all their hard work on Stage 2? Our next meeting is on Thursday 25 February. Thank you everyone, and have a good weekend. 

14:05

Barnwyd y cytunwyd ar bob adran o’r Bil.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 14:06.

The meeting ended at 14:06.