Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

05/11/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Carwyn Jones MS
David Melding MS
Helen Mary Jones MS
John Griffiths MS
Mick Antoniw MS

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Dilwyn Llwyd Neuadd Ogwen
Neuadd Ogwen
Dyfan Sion Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Welsh Language Commissioner
Dylan Foster Evans Cymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru
Welsh Place-Name Society
Gary Lulham Sin City
Sin City
Guto Brychan Clwb Ifor Bach
Clwb Ifor Bach
Robat Idris Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg
Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg
Samantha Dabb Le Pub
Le Pub

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Angharad Roche Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Rhys Morgan Clerc
Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:30. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da, bawb, a chroeso cynnes i chi i gyfarfod Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y Senedd y bore yma. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 34.19, dwi wedi penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod yma er mwyn diogelu lles ac iechyd y cyhoedd. Bydd y cyfarfod yn cael ei ddarlledu, fel arfer, yn fyw ar Senedd.tv ac mae pawb yn ymuno drwy ddulliau rhithiol. Bydd y trawsgrifiad yn cael ei gyhoeddi fel arfer. Ar wahân i'r pethau y mae'n rhaid i ni eu gwneud, gan ein bod ni'n cwrdd yn rhithiol, bydd y Rheolau Sefydlog eraill mewn lle fel arfer. Os am unrhyw reswm dwi'n colli cysylltiad, mae'r pwyllgor wedi cytuno heddiw y bydd John Griffiths yn cymryd y gadair drosodd dros dro. Gaf i ofyn i fy nghyd-Aelodau a oes yna unrhyw ddatganiad o fudd yn y cyfarfod yma? Mick.

Good morning, everyone, and a warm welcome to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee of the Senedd. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from attending this meeting in order to protect public health. The meeting will be broadcast live on Senedd.tv and all participants are joining via video-conference. A transcript of the meeting will be published as usual. Aside from those things that we have to do, as we are meeting virtually, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. If for any reason I drop out of the meeting, the committee has today resolved that John Griffiths will temporarily chair. May I ask fellow Members if there are any declarations of interest? Mick.

I make a declaration of interest—my son's a freelancer within the industry.

Thank you, Mick. And that will relate to our second main agenda item, won't it? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

2. Fframwaith Datblygu Cenedlaethol 2020-40
2. National Development Framework 2020-40

Mi wnaf i symud i eitem 2, sef cymryd tystiolaeth ar effaith y fframwaith datblygu cenedlaethol ar yr iaith Gymraeg. A dŷn ni'n croesawu tri thyst heddiw, ac mi wnaf i ddechrau drwy jest ofyn i chi gyflwyno eich hunain, yn ôl fel dwi'n eich gweld chi ar fy sgrin i. Gaf i ddechrau gyda Dylan Foster Evans, os gwelwch yn dda?

We'll move on to item 2, where we will gather evidence on the impact of the national development framework on the Welsh language. And we welcome three witnesses this morning, and I will start by just asking you to introduce yourselves, as I see you on my screen. If I could start with Dylan Foster Evans, please.

Can we unmute Dylan?

Iawn, diolch. Bore da i chi i gyd. Dylan Foster Evans ydw i, a dwi'n gadeirydd ar Gymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru.

Okay, thank you very much, and good morning to you all. I'm Dylan Foster Evans, and I am chair of the Welsh Place-Name Society.

Croeso cynnes. Dyfan Sion.

A warm welcome to you. Dyfan Sion.

Bore da. Dyfan Sion ydw i. Dwi'n gyfarwyddwr yn swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg.

Good morning. I'm Dyfan Sion. I am a director in the Welsh Language Commissioner's office.

Croeso atom ni. A Robat—Robat Idris.

A warm welcome to you. And Robat Idris.

Robat Idris ydw i. Dwi'n cynrychioli Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg heddiw.

I'm Robat Idris, and I represent Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg today.

Bore da, eto. Croeso cynnes i chi i gyd. Roeddwn i yn disgwyl i Wyn Thomas o Dyfodol i'r Iaith ymuno â ni. Yn anffodus, mae e wedi cael problemau gyda'i dechnoleg, so dŷn ni'n gorfod gofyn iddo fe gyflwyno ei dystiolaeth yn nes ymlaen, drwy ddulliau ysgrifenedig.

Gyda hynny o ragymadrodd, awn ni'n syth i mewn i gwestiynau, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda chi. Ac fe wnaf i ddechrau drwy ofyn i chi beth yw'r elfennau allweddol o fewn y fframwaith datblygu cenedlaethol a fydd o help i hyrwyddo a chefnogi'r iaith Gymraeg a'i defnydd mewn cymunedau dros Gymru gyfan? So, beth yw'r pethau allweddol a all fod yn ddefnyddiol? Pwy sydd am gychwyn? Mi wnaf i ddechrau gyda Dyfan, felly—jest i bigo ar rywun.

Good morning, again, and a warm welcome to you all. We had expected Wyn Thomas from Dyfodol i'r Iaith to join us. Unfortunately, he's been having some technical difficulties, so we will ask him to present his evidence in written form.

So, with those few words of preamble, we will move immediately to questions, if that's okay. And I'll start by asking you what are the key elements within the national development framework that will assist in promoting and supporting the Welsh language and its use in communities across Wales? So, what are the key elements that may be useful? Who'd like to start? Shall we start with Dyfan—if I can just pick on one individual.

Diolch yn fawr. Y fframwaith datblygu ydy prif strategaeth y Llywodraeth ym maes cynllunio, a'r fframwaith sy'n gosod y cyfeiriad strategol ar lefel genedlaethol. Felly, efo hynny mewn cof, mi fyddem ni'n disgwyl i'r fframwaith fod yn glir am gyfraniad y maes cynllunio i'r Gymraeg. A dwi'n meddwl, a bod yn deg, mae'r drafft diweddaraf yn cyfeirio at y Gymraeg mewn sawl elfen. Er enghraifft, mae yna gyfeiriadau at y Gymraeg fel nod llesiant Cymru ac mae yna gyfeiriadau hefyd at dargedau Cymraeg 2050—felly y targed o ran creu miliwn o siaradwyr, a'r targed hefyd o gynyddu faint o bobl sy'n siarad Cymraeg bob dydd. Yn ogystal â hynny hefyd mae creu lleoedd lle y mae'r Gymraeg yn ffynnu yn un o'r 10 canlyniad sydd yn y fframwaith. Felly, yn amlwg, dŷn ni'n croesawu hynny—mae yna ymdrech wedi bod i brif-ffrydio'r Gymraeg i mewn i'r prif fframwaith.

Mi wnaethon ni ymateb i'r drafft yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori, ac mi wnaethon ni yr adeg hynny bwysleisio rhai pryderon a oedd gennym ni hefyd. Mae rhai o'r rheini wedi cael eu datrys yn y drafft diweddaraf, ond mae yna rai yn parhau. Er enghraifft, y fframwaith gofodol sydd yn y fframwaith ei hun. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna gwestiynau ynglŷn â pha mor gynaliadwy ydy hynny. Mae yna gwestiynau ynglŷn ag atebolrwydd hynny hefyd, dŷn ni'n credu. Ac un o'r pethau pwysicaf, dwi'n meddwl, yn y fframwaith ydy, gan dderbyn beth dwi wedi'i ddweud ynglŷn â phrif-ffrydio'r Gymraeg yn y fframwaith—y cwestiwn wedyn ydy: sut fydd o'n cael ei weithredu, a'i ddylanwad o hefyd ar gynlluniau datblygu lleol?

Felly, un o'r pethau pwysicaf dŷn ni'n credu ydy'r elfen adrodd a monitro a sicrhau bod y fframwaith yn arwain at gynnydd a chyfraniad tuag at strategaeth Cymraeg 2050. Felly, fel dwi'n ddweud, mae yna elfennau o brif-ffrydio o fewn y fframwaith, ac mae yna gwestiynau pellach wedyn ynglŷn â sut fydd o'n cael ei weithredu a'i fonitro.

Thank you very much. Well, the development framework is the Government's main strategy in planning, and it's a framework that sets strategic direction at a national level. So, bearing that in mind, we would have expected the framework to be clear on the planning contribution to the Welsh language. And I think, to be fair, the most recent draft does make reference to the Welsh language in many elements. For example, there are references to the Welsh language as a well-being goal in Wales and there are also references to the Cymraeg 2050 target—so that's the target of creating a million Welsh speakers. There's also the target of increasing the numbers of people using the Welsh language on a daily basis. Now, in addition to that, creating areas where the Welsh language can prosper is one of the 10 outcomes within the framework. So, clearly, we welcome that—there has been an effort made to mainstream the Welsh language into the framework.

Now, we did respond to the draft during the consultation period, and at that point we emphasised certain concerns that we had. Some of those have been resolved in the most recent draft, but there are still some that are outstanding. For example, the spatial framework within the NDF. I think there are questions as to how sustainable that is. There are some questions in terms of accountability there too. And one of the most important things within the framework, I think, bearing in mind what I said on mainstreaming the Welsh language within it—the question that arises then is: how is that implemented and what is its influence on local development plans?

So, one of the most important things for us is the reporting and monitoring elements and ensuring that the framework does lead to progress and contributes towards the Cymraeg 2050 strategy. So, as I said, I think there are elements of mainstreaming within the framework, but there are further questions to be asked as to how it will be implemented and monitored.

09:35

Diolch. Dylan, Robat—ydych chi eisiau ychwanegu? Dylan ac wedyn Robat.

Thank you. Dylan, Robat—do you want to add? Dylan and then Robat.

Diolch yn fawr a diolch am y cyfle i fod yma i rannu syniadau y bore yma. Yn amlwg, dwi yma ar ran Cymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru ac ymhlith amcanion y gymdeithas yna mae yna bethau fel codi ymwybyddiaeth o bwysigrwydd enwau lleoedd a lledaenu gwybodaeth amdanyn nhw, cefnogi unigolion a grwpiau cymunedol ac ati i gofnodi, dadansoddi a dehongli enwau, a hefyd i weithredu fel cyfrwng i warchod enwau lleoedd Cymru.

Felly, mae unrhyw gynllun fel hwn, sydd yn uchelgeisiol a hefyd yn ofodol ac yn ddaearyddol ei oblygiadau, yn mynd i gael effaith ar y tirlun a hefyd ar y dirwedd a'r enwau lleoedd sy'n cael eu defnyddio. Felly, ar y naill law, mae yna gyfleoedd amlwg yn fan hyn i fod yn flaengar, wrth, mae'n siŵr, i ddatblygiadau newydd gael eu creu, i edrych ar ein treftadaeth a'r enwau sydd yn bodoli eisoes a defnyddio'r rheini a rhoi bywyd newydd i rai o'r enwau yma, o bosib. Mi fyddwn ni hefyd, wrth gwrs, angen, mae'n siŵr, bathu enwau. Ac mae yna rai awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru, megis Caerdydd, er enghraifft, wedi rhoi pwyslais penodol ar y dreftadaeth Gymraeg, gan gydnabod, mewn gwirionedd, yn hanesyddol, mai'r gwrthwyneb oedd yn wir a bod yna duedd hanesyddol wedi bod i anwybyddu'r enwau Cymraeg sydd wedi bod yn y tirlun ac i fathu enwau Saesneg newydd. Felly, mae cyngor fel Caerdydd yn edrych at gael sefyllfa fwy cyfartal yn hynny o beth maes o law.

Felly, mae yna gyfleoedd yn fan hyn i edrych ar ein stoc o enwau, ar ein treftadaeth enwau. Rydyn ni yng Nghymru, ac ym Mhrydain, dwi'n meddwl, yn dueddol o weld treftadaeth at ei gilydd fel rhywbeth sydd yn gyffyrddadwy, yn faterol, hynny yw yn adeiladau, yn gestyll ac yn nodweddau tirweddol, ond dwi'n meddwl ei bod yn bwysig iawn ein bod ni, yng nghyd-destun y Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 ac ati, yn ystyried ein treftadaeth enwau hefyd.

Y pryderon efallai wedyn, wrth gwrs, ydy fod datblygiadau yn gallu arwain at golli enwau lleoedd. Dwi wedi nodi eisoes fod y gymdeithas yn ymorol am warchod enwau lleoedd a gall hynny ddigwydd ar sawl lefel. Y lefel fwyaf syml ydy cofnodi a rhestru enwau lleoedd mewn cronfa ddata a'u gwarchod nhw yn yr ystyr yna. Ond mewn gwirionedd, y mae trwch o'n haelodaeth ni yn sicr eisiau gweld mwy na hynny—eisiau gweld defnydd ar enwau lleoedd. Ac felly, yn hynny o beth, mae yna bryderon weithiau ynglŷn â mor rhwydd ydy hi i newid enwau, boed hynny yn digwydd ar lefel swyddogol neu'n anffurfiol ac yn answyddogol.

Un peth y mae'r gymdeithas wedi sylwi arno fo yn ddiweddar, trwy gydweithio gyda rhai awdurdodau lleol, yw mor amrywiol ydy'r drefniadaeth fewnol yn rhai o'r awdurdodau yma, hynny yw wrth holi ynglŷn â newid enwau anheddau ac ati sydd wedi digwydd dros y blynyddoedd. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol yn gallu rhannu'n llawn y wybodaeth honno gyda ni; mae eraill yn dweud y byddai'n ormod o waith iddyn nhw greu'r rhestr yna. Mae eraill yn poeni am ddiogelu data ac yn peidio â rhannu am y rheswm yna. Mae eraill yn dweud nad ydyn nhw hyd yn oed yn cadw'r wybodaeth, sydd yn peri pryder i ni y byddem ni'n gallu colli enwau yn y dull yna.

Felly, mae yna ystod eang o ffyrdd ac ati lle mae enwau yn gallu cael eu newid. Ac fel rwy'n ei ddweud, dwi'n gweld y datblygiad yma fel cyfle inni fod yn flaengar, a gallwn ni edrych i wledydd eraill o gwmpas y byd sydd wedi gwneud ymdrech fwriadol i adeiladu ar eu treftadaeth enwol, ac yn y ddwy iaith, wrth gwrs—mae enwau hanesyddol yn perthyn i'r ddwy iaith, ac wedi gwneud erioed. Ac yn yr un modd, mae enwau lleoedd yn ddeinamig ac yn newid. Dyna pam mae'r maes yn ddiddorol. Mae hynny wastad wedi digwydd oddi mewn i'r Gymraeg, oddi mewn i'r Saesneg a rhwng y ddwy iaith hefyd. Felly, byddem ni eisiau edrych yn gyfannol ar y peth, ond, fel roeddwn yn ei ddweud, mae yna gyfleoedd a phryderon i mi yn y maes yma. 

Thank you very much and thank you for the opportunity to be with you this morning to share some ideas. I'm here on behalf of the Welsh Place-Names Society and among the objectives of the society are things such as raising the awareness of the importance of place names and providing information on them, supporting individuals and community groups to record and analyse place names, and also providing an opportunity to safeguard Welsh place names.

So, any ambitious plans such as this, which is spatial and geographically based, will have an impact on the landscape and on place names that are used. So, on the one hand, there are clear opportunities here to be innovative, as new developments are created, to look at our heritage and existing place names and to use those and to give new life to some of those historic names, possibly. We will perhaps also need to actually come up with new place names. There are local authorities in Wales, such as Cardiff, that have put specific emphasis on Welsh language heritage, acknowledging that, historically, the opposite was true and that there had been a historic trend to ignore the place names in our landscape and to come up with new English names. So, councils such as Cardiff are looking towards having a more equal scenario in that regard.

So, there are opportunities here to look at our stock of names and our heritage. We in Wales, and in Britain, tend to see heritage, generally speaking, as something that is tangible—castles, buildings and geographical features—but I think it's very important that, in the context of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and so on, we consider our heritage in terms of place names too.

The concerns then, of course, are that perhaps developments can lead to the loss of place names. I've noted already that the society is very concerned with safeguarding place names and that can happen at many levels. The simplest of those is to record place names in a database and to protect them in that sense. But in reality, the majority of our members want to see more than that—they want to see place names actually used. And therefore, in that regard, there can be concerns as to how easy it is to change names, be that at an official level or informally and unofficially.

One thing that the society has noted recently, by working with some local authorities, is how diverse the internal arrangements are in some of these authorities in raising questions on changes to the names of homes that have occurred over the years. Now, some local authorities can share that information in full with us, and others say that it would be too much of a burden for them to create that list. Others are concerned about data protection and don't share information for that reason. And others say that they don't even record the information, which is a cause of concern for us because we will lose place names in that way.

So, there is a broad range of ways in which names can be changed. And as I say, we see this development as an opportunity for us to be innovative, and we can look to other nations around the world that have made a substantive effort to build on their name heritage, and in both languages, of course—there are historic names in both languages, and that's always been the case in Wales. And place names are dynamic and do change. That's why the area is interesting. This has always happened in the Welsh language, in the English language and between both languages. So, we would like to look at this holistically, but, as I was saying, there are opportunities and concerns for me in this area. 

09:40

Diolch yn fawr, Dylan. Robat.  

Thank you, Dylan. Robat. 

Bore da. Diolch i chi am y cyfle i roi tystiolaeth. Mae eisiau cryn ddewrder, onid oes, i ragweld beth sy'n digwydd erbyn 2040 yn yr amseroedd tymhestlog rydyn ni'n byw ynddyn nhw rŵan? Cyn belled ag y mae'r Gymraeg yn y cwestiwn, dwi'n meddwl mai'r pwynt pwysig ydy y dylem ni adeiladu'r Gymraeg i bob peth o fewn cymdeithas, cyn belled ag y gallwn ni. Mae hynny'n cynnwys, wrth gwrs, atgyfnerthu'r ardaloedd lle mae Cymraeg, ar hyn o bryd, yn cael ei siarad yn gyffredin. Ond hefyd, beth dydyn ni ddim wir yn cael ei gynnwys yn y strategaeth yma ydy'r datblygiadau diweddar, sef bod cymaint o eiddo yn cael ei werthu sydd ddim ar gael bellach i bobl leol, onid e? 

Dwi'n meddwl bod yna sawl peth yn y drafft yma y gallwn ni ddweud eu bod nhw'n ddyheadau y gallwn ni eu canmol', sef bod yr iaith yn ffyniannus, bod pobl yn medru gweithio yn eu hardaloedd ac yn y blaen, ac yn y blaen, ond os ydyn ni'n cyferbynnu hynny efo prif strategaeth a phrif wthiad, os leiciwch chi, y cynllun drafft yma, beth rydyn ni'n gweld ydy, yn hytrach na gweld Cymru fel uned, rydyn ni'n gweld tri rhanbarth sydd yn cael eu cyplysu yn economaidd, a'r deisyfiad yna yn cael ei ailadrodd dro ar ôl tro ar ôl tro, efo gogledd Lloegr, canolbarth Lloegr, de-orllewin Lloegr. Fel Cymdeithas yr Iaith, rydyn ni'n gweld—o'r gorau, fedrwch chi ddadlau bod yna fanteision economaidd i hynny, ond y duedd fydd, buaswn i'n ei ddweud, i wanhau'r Gymraeg yn y gymuned, a hefyd mae'r ffaith ein bod ni'n rhoi tystiolaeth i'ch pwyllgor chi, yn ardderchog, ond, mewn ffordd, mi ddylwn ni hefyd fod yn rhoi tystiolaeth i, efallai, bwyllgor sy'n ymwneud â chymunedau ac o ran economi. 

Beth rydyn ni'n ei weld wir ydy rhyw fath—a dwi ddim yn dweud bod hyn yn fwriadol o gwbl, ond mae'n ymddangos, i raddau, fod yr ardaloedd gwledig yn cael eu gweld, bron iawn, fel rhyw ysgyfaint i'r ardaloedd trefol gael eu mwynhau, os leiciwch chi, a bod y boblogaeth sydd yn byw yna yn dueddol o fod yna i'w gwasanaethu nhw. Dwi ddim yn dweud ei fod yn fwriadol, ond roeddwn i'n siarad efo pobl yn ddiweddar yma oedd yn dweud, 'Wel, oherwydd bod gymaint o eiddo yn mynd allan o gyrraedd pobl leol, mae hynny'n gwanhau'r cymdeithasau cynhenid.' Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna le mawr i'r system gynllunio edrych ar yr holl gwestiwn o dai, achos mae'r gymdeithas, ers talwm iawn, wedi bod yn dweud, 'Tai, gwaith, iaith.' Mae'r pethau yma i gyd yn gysylltiedig, onid ydynt?

Dwi'n meddwl hefyd y gallwn ni ddweud mai un o brif-ffrydiau'r fframwaith yma ydy ceisio—wrth ddweud bod yr amgylchedd yn bwysig, a hyn a'r llall, ar y naill law maen nhw'n dweud hynny, ac ar y llaw arall mae'r cynlluniau sy'n cael eu hyrwyddo yn gynlluniau cyfalafol mawr, fel sydd wedi methu yn y gorffennol, a dweud y gwir. Edrychwch chi, er enghraifft, ar gynllun twf gogledd Cymru—wel, beth rydyn ni'n sôn amdano yn fanna ydy cynllun oedd yn cael ei yrru gan y gobaith y byddai Wylfa yn dod. Hwnnw wedyn, yn ei dro, yn gyrru cynllun datblygu lleol oedd yn llywio'r gofyn am dai a lle roedden nhw yn mynd i gael eu lleoli. Rŵan, mae gofyn inni, dwi'n meddwl, adeiladu o'r cymunedau i fyny, yn hytrach nag o'r top i lawr.

Dwi ddim yn gwybod faint o drafod sydd yna—ychydig iawn, buaswn i'n ei ddweud—o ran datblygu fframweithiau sydd yn berthnasol i gymunedau lleol. Mae'r syniad yma fod pob peth yn llifo o'r top i lawr, ac os ydy rhywbeth mawr yn dod mae pawb yn mynd i elwa ohono fo, bydd pobl leol yn cael gwaith ac felly bydd pobl yn mynd i aros yn eu cymunedau Cymraeg—. Mi ddylem ni fod yn pwysleisio ein bod ni'n addysgu ein pobl ifanc i gael cyfleoedd yn ein hardaloedd ni, a dweud y gwir. Mi fuasai Llywodraeth Cymru, yn ein tyb ni, yn medru gwneud llawer iawn i ddatgysylltu, os leiciwch chi, y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o le mae'r rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw, yng Nghaerdydd. Rydyn ni'n gwybod mai un o'r—

Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to provide evidence. You would be quite brave, wouldn't you, to predict what's going to happen between now and 2040 in these tempestuous times? As far as the Welsh language is concerned, I think the important thing is that we should build the Welsh language into everything within society, as far as we can, including, of course, strengthening those areas where the Welsh language is commonly spoken at the moment. But what isn't included in this strategy is perhaps recent developments, namely that so much property is sold that isn't within the grasp of local populations. 

Now, I think there are many things in the draft that we can say are aspirations that we can applaud, namely that the language should prosper, that people can work in their areas and so on and so forth, but if we contrast that with the main strategy and the main drive, if you like, of this draft proposal, what we see is rather than looking at Wales as a single entity, we see three regions that are linked economically, and that aspiration being repeated time and time again, with the north of England, the midlands and the south-west of England. Now, as Cymdeithas yr Iaith, we understand that you can argue that there are economic benefits to that, but the trend will be, I would say, to weaken the Welsh language in the community through that, and the fact that we're giving evidence to your committee is excellent, of course, but, in a way, we should also be giving evidence, perhaps, to the committees involved with communities and the economy too.

Because what we we see—and I'm not saying that this is deliberate in any sense, but it does appear, to some extent, that rural areas are almost seen as the lungs of our urban areas; they're areas to be enjoyed by the urban population and the population that lives there is there to serve. I'm not saying this is deliberate, but I have spoken to people recently who said that because so much property is out of the reach of local people, that weakens the indigenous community. So, I do think that there is a strong role for the planning system to look at the whole question of housing, because Cymdeithas yr Iaith, for many years, have been saying 'Tai, gwaith, iaith'housing, work and language. All of these things are connected, aren't they? 

I also think that we can also say that one of the main drivers of this framework—whilst saying that the environment is important and so on and so forth, on the one hand they say that, but on the other the plans that are being promoted are large-scale capitalist plans that have failed in the past. If you look, for example, at the north Wales growth deal, well, what we're talking about there is a plan that was driven by the hope that Wylfa would be built. That in turn drove a local development plan that was steering the demand for housing and where housing should be built. I think we need to build our communities from the bottom up, not the top down. 

I don't know how much discussion there's been—very little, I would say—in terms of developing frameworks that are relevant to local communities. This idea that everything flows from the top down, and if there's a major development then everyone will benefit, and local people will have access to work and stay in Welsh language communities—. But we should be emphasising that we should be educating our young people to have opportunities in their own areas. The Welsh Government, in our view, could do much more to disconnect public services from where most are based in Cardiff. We know that one of the—

Sori, Robat, bydd cyfle inni fynd mewn i rai o'r manylion yng nghwestiynau pobl eraill. 

Sorry, Robat. We will have opportunities to go into some of the details in later questions.  

Iawn, mae'n ddrwg gen i. 

Right, I apologise.  

09:45

Dwi jest yn ymwybodol iawn ein bod ni bach yn brin o amser. So, os dwi'n gallu tynnu Carwyn Jones i mewn nawr. 

I am just very aware that we are a little short of time. So, if I can invite Carwyn Jones to ask questions.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Mae yna dri chwestiwn gyda fi, gyda llaw, ond y cwestiwn cyntaf yw: ydy'r fframwaith drafft hwn yn rhoi'r sicrwydd i chi bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn drywydd craidd sydd yn rhedeg drwy'r fframwaith?

Thank you, Chair. I have three questions, the first of which is whether the current draft framework provides certainty that the Welsh language is a core thread throughout the framework.

Pwy sydd am gychwyn ar hyn? Dyfan i ddechrau?

Who'd like to start? Dyfan first of all?

Ie, diolch, dwi'n hapus i gychwyn. Fel y dywedais i yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, dwi'n meddwl bod yna ymdrechion amlwg i gysylltu'r Gymraeg efo'r fframwaith. Mae'r Gymraeg yn un o'r 11 canlyniad sydd yn y fframwaith—mae hynny'n rhywbeth i'w groesawu, yn sicr.

Rhywbeth roeddem ni'n awyddus iawn i'w weld hefyd efo'r fframwaith oedd y cyswllt rhwng y fframwaith a'r strategaeth Cymraeg 2050, ac mae hynny'n bodoli. Mae yna gyfeiriad at brif dargedau'r strategaeth honno. Un peth eto roeddem ni'n awyddus i weld mwy ohono fo oedd cyswllt efo rhai strategaethau eraill hefyd. Er enghraifft, mae gan y gyfundrefn gynllunio gyfraniad i'w wneud i isadeiledd cymunedol ac isadeiledd addysgol hefyd. Felly, o safbwynt hynny, roeddem ni'n awyddus i weld cyswllt agosach efo pethau fel strategaethau y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Rŵan, mae yna gyfeiriad at hynny yn y fframwaith, ond braidd yn arwynebol, efallai, ydy'r cysylltiad yna.

Dwi'n meddwl hefyd, er bod y fframwaith ar lefel strategol genedlaethol yn cyfeirio sawl gwaith at y Gymraeg, fel mae Robat wedi cyfeirio ato fo, os ewch chi i lawr i'r lefel is, wedyn—y lefel rhanbarthol gofodol—mae'r cyfeiriadau'n dueddol o fod yn rhai cyffredinol unwaith eto. Dydy rhywun ddim yn cael y teimlad bod yna lot o feddwl wedi mynd i'r cyfeiriadau penodol sydd eu hangen ar gyfer y gwahanol ranbarthau yng Nghymru. Felly, i ateb y cwestiwn, dwi'n meddwl, ar y lefel strategol genedlaethol, dwi yn meddwl bod yna gysylltiadau cryf wedi cael eu gwneud efo'r Gymraeg. Wrth i chi fynd lawr, wedyn, i'r lefel rhanbarthol gofodol a'r cysylltiadau efo strategaethau penodol fel y Gymraeg mewn addysg, mae’r cyswllt yn llai amlwg.

Peth arall buaswn i'n ei ddweud wedyn ydy bod hi'n bwysig bod cyfraniad y fframwaith yma at Cymraeg 2050 yn cael ei fesur a'i fonitro. Mae yna elfen o fonitro'r fframwaith, mae yna eglurhad o hynny, ond buaswn i'n dymuno gweld bod y Llywodraeth yn sicrhau bod yna fframwaith eithaf clir o ran monitro cyfraniad y fframwaith at y strategaeth Cymraeg 2050, ac mae yna gyfraniad hefyd i awdurdodau lleol i'w wneud fel rhan o hynny. [Anghlywadwy.]—fframwaith cenedlaethol sydd ar y top, ond yn bwydo i mewn i hwn hefyd mae gennych chi'r cynlluniau datblygu lleol ac, unwaith eto, fel mae'r fframwaith yn ei ddweud, a bod yn deg, mae yna ddisgwyliad ar bob un o'r cynlluniau yna i fod yn cynnwys strategaeth ofodol ar gyfer y Gymraeg. Felly, ia, mae cyfraniad y cysylltiad yna ar lefel genedlaethol, ond fel rydych chi'n mynd yn is lawr wedyn i'r lefel ranbarthol, mae yna le i gryfhau hynny, dwi'n meddwl.

Yes, I'm happy to kick off. As I said in my opening remarks, I do think that there are clear efforts to link the Welsh language with the framework. The Welsh language is one of the 11 outcomes of the framework, and that's certainly something to be welcomed.

One thing that we were very eager to see with the framework was that link between the framework and the Cymraeg 2050 strategy, and that does exist. There is reference to the main targets of that strategy. Now, one thing that we were eager to see more of was a link to other strategies too. For example, the planning system has a contribution to make in terms of community infrastructure and also educational infrastructure. So, from that perspective, we were very eager to see a closer link with things such as Welsh in education strategies. Now, there is reference to that in the framework, but it is, perhaps, a little superficial.

Now, I also think that, although the framework at a national strategic level does make a number of references to the Welsh language, as Robat's already mentioned, if you go down to that lower level—the regional spatial level—then the references tend to be more general in nature. One doesn't get the feeling that there's been a great deal of thought put in to the specific references required for the various different regions of Wales. So, to answer your question, I think, at the strategic national level, I do think strong connections have been made with the Welsh language. If you then go down to the regional level and the spatial level and look at issues such as Welsh in education, then the linkages are less clear.

Another thing I would then go on to say is that it's important that the contribution of this framework to Cymraeg 2050 is measured and monitored. There is an element of monitoring within the framework, and that is explained within it, but I would want to see Government ensuring that there is quite a clear framework in place in terms of monitoring the contribution of the framework to the Cymraeg 2050 strategy, and there's also a contribution for local authorities to make in that regard. You have the national framework at the top, yes, but feeding into that you have the local development plans and, once again, as the framework says, to be fair, there is an expectation on each of those LDPs to include a spatial strategy for the Welsh language. So, that connection is there at a national level, but as you go down to the regional level, then there is scope to strengthen that, I think.

Diolch. Robat neu Dylan, ydych chi am ychwanegu at hyn o gwbl?

Thank you. Robat or Dylan, do you have anything to add?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Buaswn i'n dweud bod y bwriad yn dda, ond ydy'r manylder yna i ddweud bod y Gymraeg yn greiddiol? Dwi ddim yn meddwl. Dwi wedi cyfeirio at rai pethau'n barod, wrth gwrs, ond buasem ni'n dweud, 'Wel, sut yn hollol ydych chi'n mynd i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn rhan o fywyd pob dydd pobl?' Ac ymhellach na hynny—a dwi'n gwybod ei fod o, i raddau, yn dibynnu ar unigolion i weithredu hyn—sut ydych chi'n rhoi'r hyder i bobl i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg os ydyn nhw'n ddysgwyr? Sut ydych chi'n perswadio pobl sy'n symud yma ei bod hi'n werth ymwneud â'r diwylliant Cymraeg a'r iaith Gymraeg? Er enghraifft, hyd y gwn i, does yna ddim strategaeth o gwbl i gyflwyno rhyw becyn, os liciwch chi, i bobl sy'n symud i mewn, yn dweud, 'Dyma le rydych chi, rŵan. Dyma rywfaint o gefndir y wlad. Dyma'r iaith sy'n cael ei siarad yn weddol gyffredin mewn rhai llefydd ac mae'r iaith ar dwf mewn llefydd eraill'.

Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n wir i ddweud bod y Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd, tra'n cael cefnogaeth swyddogol efallai yn fwy na mae wedi'i chael yn y gorffennol, mae'r sialensiau llawer iawn yn uwch hefyd, onid ydynt? Felly, tra bod rhywun yn diolch bod yna ddysgwyr yn cymryd diddordeb, dŷn ni'n gwybod bod yna lawer iawn o bobl eraill sy'n symud i mewn heb unrhyw ddiddordeb o gwbl, fel roedd Dylan yn cyfeirio'n gynharach, yn newid enwau'r tai ac yn y blaen. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, oherwydd y pwysau mae'r iaith oddi tani hi, rŵan, mae'n rhaid ymdrechu'n llawer iawn caletach. Mae hynny ar bob lefel, gan gynnwys Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs. 

Yes. Thank you, Chair. I would say that the intentions are good, but the detail isn't there for us to be able to say that the Welsh language is a core element of this. I've referred to a few things already, but I would ask, 'How exactly are you going to ensure that the Welsh language is part of daily life?' And further to that—and I know this depends on individuals to a great extent—how do you give people the confidence to use the Welsh language if they're Welsh-language learners? How do you persuade people who move here that there is value in engaging with the Welsh culture and the Welsh language? For example, as far as I know, there is no strategy at all to present an information pack to people who move in, giving the history and background of the area, 'This is the language spoken commonly in certain places and the language is growing in other areas'.

I do think it's true to say that the Welsh language at the moment, whilst being given official support perhaps more than it's had in the past, the challenges are far greater, too. And therefore, whilst one is grateful that there are Welsh learners who do take an interest in the language, we know that other people are moving in without taking any interest at all, as Dylan mentioned earlier in reference to house names and so on. So, given the pressures on the language now, I do think that we have to work far harder, and that's at all levels, including Government.

09:50

Diolch. Mae'r ddogfen yma'n amlwg yn ddogfen uchelgeisiol ac ar lefel uchel a dydy hi ddim yn mynd i'r afael â materion y byddai'n cymdeithas ni, Cymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru, yn eu trafod at ei gilydd, er, yn amlwg, yn y canlyniadau perthnasol, mae yna gyfeirio at yr iaith Gymraeg yn ffynnu ac at gynaliadwyedd mewn ffyrdd mwy cyffredinol.

Byddwn i'n nodi efallai hefyd bod y ddogfen yn ymdrin â threftadaeth mewn ffordd draddodiadol ac yn dueddol o weld treftadaeth fel rhywbeth materol sydd yn rhywbeth cyffyrddadwy yn hytrach nag yn dreftadaeth anghyffwrddadwy, sy'n gallu cynnwys pethau ieithyddol. Wrth gwrs, mae yna sôn am ddiwylliant ac ati yma, ond rydw i'n meddwl mai dyna'r ffordd dŷn ni'n meddwl am dreftadaeth yng Nghymru, sydd efallai ddim bob tro'n fuddiol yn ein cyd-destun ni.

Ac fel clywsom ni gynnau hefyd, dwi'n meddwl, mae llawer o'r cyfrifoldeb ynglŷn ag enwau lleoedd yn syrthio ar awdurdodau lleol, felly mae yna lai o fanylion am hynny, felly dyna'r cwestiynau y byddwn i'n eu holi ynglŷn â sut y byddai hyn, wedyn, yn cael ei weithredu ar lefel awdurdodau lleol a sut y byddan nhw'n edrych ar eu cyfrifoldebau wrth ymwneud ag enwau lleoedd. Wrth gwrs, mae ganddyn nhw hawliau arbennig dros enwau strydoedd, er enghraifft, a datblygiadau newydd, ond lle mae'n fwy niwlog o lawer ydy sefyllfaoedd o ran enwi ystadau tai, hynny yw, cwmnïau’n defnyddio enwau marchnadol yn fanna hefyd—[Anghlywadwy.]—ond sydd yn gallu cael effaith hirdymor ar ardal a'i threftadaeth enwau. Felly, byddai pethau fel yna'n bethau y byddem ni am wybod mwy amdanyn nhw, ond dydyn nhw ddim yn y fframwaith ar y lefel yna. 

Thank you. Yes, clearly, this document is ambitious and high-level, and it doesn't tackle issues that the Welsh Names Society would generally discuss, although clearly there is reference to the Welsh language prospering and to sustainability in more general terms.

We would note, perhaps, that the document deals with heritage in a traditional manner and tends to see heritage as something that is tangible rather than being the intangible heritage, which can include linguistic elements. There is talk of culture, of course, here, but I do think that that's how we've tended to think of heritage in Wales, which doesn't always benefit us in our context.

And as we heard earlier too, much of the responsibility on place names falls on local authorities, so there are fewer details on that. So, those are the questions I would ask as to how this would be implemented at a local authority level and how they would look at their responsibilities in terms of place names. Of course, they have particular powers on street names and new developments, but where it's far more ambiguous is in circumstances where housing estates are named, where major builders can take a different approach and that can have a major influence. So, those things aren't included in the framework at that level.

Diolch am yr atebion. Beth, felly, sydd eisiau newid yn y fframwaith?

Thank you for your answers. What needs to change within the framework, therefore?

Pwy sy'n moyn cychwyn? Gwnaf i ddechrau gyda chi, Robat: beth sydd angen newid?

Who would like to start? If we can start with you, Robat: what needs to change?

Wel, yn amlwg does yna ddim digon o amser i fynd i fanylder, ond—

Well, clearly, we can't go into great detail on that—

Na, na. Headlines.

No, we're looking for the headlines. 

Yr Headlines ydy bod y Gymraeg yn cael ei gweld fel peth creiddiol ym mhob maes a'n bod ni ddim, os liciwch chi, yn ei hystyried yn rhywbeth lled-ymylol, lled-gelfyddydol yn unig. Mae'n ymwneud â busnes; mae'n ymwneud â masnach; mae'n ymwneud â sut mae pobl yn cyfathrebu'n naturiol, onid ydy? A dwi'n meddwl, er bod yna gyfrifoldeb enfawr ar unigolion, p'un ai ydyn nhw'n medru'r Gymraeg neu beidio, i fynd i'r afael â hwnnw, mae yna ddyletswydd ar y Llywodraeth i roi arweiniad, onid oes? Achos, yn y pen draw, dŷn ni'n byw mewn gwlad sydd, er gwaethaf popeth ar hyd y canrifoedd, wedi llwyddo i gadw'r iaith yma i fynd, ac mae'r pwysau'n cynyddu am sawl rheswm, wrth gwrs.

Dwi'n meddwl, yn y bôn, y cwestiwn ydy: sut ydym ni'n delio efo'r anghyfartaledd economaidd sydd yn golygu nad ydy llawer iawn o bobl Cymru'n gallu byw—os ydyn nhw'n dewis—yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain a chael gwaith yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain? Felly, mae hwnnw'n greiddiol. Felly, fel dwi'n dweud, mae'r Gymraeg yn greiddiol i bopeth arall, onid ydy?

Os ydych chi'n sôn am bethau penodol ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg, wrth gwrs, rydych chi'n edrych ar, buaswn i'n dweud, sicrhau bod pobl sy'n dod i fyw yma'n cael y cyfle i ddysgu'r Gymraeg; bod cyflogwyr yn cael eu cefnogi i hyrwyddo eu gweithwyr; bod o'n cael ei weld fel rhywbeth sydd ddim yn ddewisol, os liciwch chi, ond bod o bron iawn—dŷch chi ddim eisiau defnyddio'r term 'gorfodi' wrth gwrs—ond bod o'n cael ei weld yn beth sydd yn arferol, yn hytrach na rhywbeth mae pobl yn dweud, 'Mi wnâi wneud o, achos buasai fo'n reit neis i wneud o', felly.  Diolch yn fawr.

Well, the headlines are that the Welsh language should be seen as a core element in all areas and we shouldn't consider it as being a peripheral issue related to heritage and the arts. It relates to business and trade; it relates to how people communicate in a natural way. And I think, although there is huge responsibility on individuals, whether they are Welsh speakers or not, to tackle that, there is also a duty on Government to give leadership and guidance, because ultimately, we live within a country that, despite everything over the centuries, has managed to preserve our language, and the pressures on it are increasing for a number of reasons.

I think, essentially, the question is: how do we deal with the economic inequality that means that many of the people of Wales cannot live—if they choose to do so—in their own areas and access work in their own areas? So, that's a key issue, and as I say, the Welsh language is at the heart of everything else.

If you're talking about specific issues around the Welsh language, then, of course you're looking to ensure that people who do come to live here have the opportunity to learn the language; that employers are supported in encouraging their workforce to use the Welsh language; that it's seen as something that isn't optional. You don't want to use the word 'compulsion', of course, but it should be seen as being the norm rather than being a 'nice to have'. 

Diolch. Dylan—y pethau byddech chi eisiau gweld yn newid yn y fframwaith. 

Thank you. Dylan—the things that you would want to see changed within the framework.

Diolch. Fel roeddwn i'n sôn gynnau, dwi'n meddwl byddai cydnabyddiaeth bod treftadaeth yn ehangach na safleoedd ac adeiladau a strwythurau—rhyw adeiledd, fel petai—yn werthfawr, dwi'n meddwl. Dwi'n meddwl bod meddwl am yr ecoleg yna o ran enwau yn bwysig o ran twf cynaliadwy; mae hynny'n elfen bwysig o'r ddogfen hon, a dwi'n meddwl byddai modd gosod enwau lleoedd yn y cyd-destun hynny.

Mae'r ddogfen yn fframio, wrth gwrs, gan ddilyn y Ddeddf llesiant, y Gymraeg yn ddaearyddol hefyd, wrth sôn am bobl yn byw mewn lleoedd lle mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn ffynnu. Ac felly, dwi'n meddwl mae'r pwyslais ar leoedd yna yn arwain at bwysleisio perthynas pobl â lleoedd, a dyna ydy enwau lleoedd yn y pen draw: mae'n ffordd o fynegi perthynas pobl gyda'u hardal eu hunain. Ac i bobl sydd yn gyfarwydd iawn â'r ardal honno, wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n aml iawn yn mynd yn ddwfn iawn; mae yna ddigon o astudiaethau'n dangos perthynas gref rhwng hunaniaeth ac enwau ac ardal. Ond wrth gwrs, hefyd i unrhyw un sydd yn symud i ardal sydd yn newydd i'r ardal, bod modd iddyn nhw ddysgu am yr ardal honno. Mae yna arfer da, rŵan, dwi'n gobeithio, eto, yng Nghaerdydd, rŵan, y bydd yna enghraifft lle bydd enwau lleoedd newydd—bydd yna esboniad ar gael i bobl; os ydyn nhw'n mynd i ystad o dai newydd sbon efo enw, byddan nhw'n gallu mynd at esboniad o'r enw yna a chreu'r berthynas yna. Felly, mae'r ochr yna o waith y gymdeithas o ran addysgu pobl yn rhywbeth hoffwn i ei weld hefyd yn ehangach o fewn maes polisi.

Thank you. As I mentioned earlier, I think recognition that heritage is broader than simply building structures and sites and infrastructure; I think that would be valuable. I think that thinking of that place-name ecology is important in terms of sustainable development, and that's an important part of this document, and we can put place names in that context.

The document does frame, of course, following the well-being of future generations Act, it does place the language geographically, when it talks of people living in areas where the Welsh language is prospering. And I think that emphasis on geography emphasises people's relationship with places, and that's what place names are: it's people's relationships with their own areas. And for people who are very familiar with those areas, then that often runs very deeply indeed, and there are plenty of studies showing a strong relationship between identity and place names. But for anyone moving into an area, they should be able to learn about that area. There is good practice now; again, I refer to Cardiff, there will be an example where new place names will be provided with an explanation, so if there's a new housing development, they will be able to access an explanation of that place name. So that side of our work in terms of educating people is something that I would want to see more broadly in policy.

09:55

Diolch. Dyfan, pethau sydd angen newid yn y fframwaith, o'ch safbwynt chi. 

Dyfan, those things that need to change within the framework, from your perspective.

Can we unmute Dyfan, please?

Sori. Mae tua blwyddyn ers i ni ymateb i'r ymgynghoriad ar y fframwaith drafft ac yn amlwg, mae yna lot fawr wedi newid yn y flwyddyn yna. A'r prif beth buaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy dwi'n meddwl bod angen i'r fframwaith ymateb yn well i'r newidiadau cymdeithasol sydd wedi digwydd yn sgil COVID. Dwi'n meddwl petai'r fframwaith yn cael ei drafftio heddiw, efallai y byddai yna lai o ganolbwyntio ar ganolfannau twf trefol yn y fframwaith. A beth rŷn ni i gyd wedi ei ddysgu, dwi'n meddwl, o'r argyfwng COVID ydy ei bod hi'n bosib i ni fyw a gweithio mewn unrhyw leoliad yng Nghymru; mae'n bosib i ni weithio o bell a gweithio'n hyblyg. A dwi'n meddwl bod y Llywodraeth ei hun hefyd, trwy bolisïau gweithio o bell, yn canolbwyntio'n fwy ar ganolfannau lleol erbyn hyn, yn hytrach na chanolfannau dinesig a threfol, felly mae hynny'n rhywbeth o fewn y fframwaith byddwn i'n dymuno i'r Llywodraeth edrych eto arno fo.

Wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n adlewyrchu'n uniongyrchol ar y Gymraeg hefyd. Felly, beth dŷn ni wedi ei weld yn ystod y cyfnod diwethaf yma ydy pwysau ychwanegol ar gymunedau Cymraeg. Mae yna eithaf tipyn o sôn yn y fframwaith ynglŷn â thai fforddiadwy a'r angen am gartrefi cymdeithasol; does yna ddim cymaint o sôn am y pwysau mae'r broblem ail gartrefi, er enghraifft, yn ei rhoi i gymunedau yng Nghymru. A dwi'n meddwl bod hynny wedi cael ei amlygu unwaith eto yn sgil beth sydd wedi digwydd trwy'r argyfwng COVID, sef y pwysau ychwanegol yna ar ail gartrefi, pryder ynglŷn â theithio i Gymru yn ystod cyfnod cyfyngiadau. Felly dwi'n meddwl dyna'r prif beth, sef ymateb i'r newidiadau a'r pwysau ychwanegol sydd wedi bod yn ystod y cyfnod COVID.

Apologies. Yes, it's around a year since we responded to the consultation on the draft framework and clearly, a great deal has changed in that year. And the main thing I would say is that the framework needs to respond better to the social changes that have happened as a result of COVID. I think the framework, if it were drafted today, perhaps there would be less focus on urban centres of growth in the framework. What we've all learned, I think, from the COVID crisis, is that it's possible for us to live and work in any area of Wales; it's possible for us to work remotely and to work flexibly. And I think the Government itself, through remote working policies, is more focused on local centres now, rather than urban centres. So, that is something within the framework that we would want the Government to reconsider.

Of course, that has a direct influence on the Welsh language. What we've seen in recent times is additional pressures on Welsh-speaking communities. There's quite a bit of mention in the framework about affordable housing and the need for social housing; there isn't much talk of the problem of second homes and the pressures that that places on communities in Wales, and I think that's been highlighted again as a result of the COVID crisis, namely that additional pressure in terms of second homes and concerns about travelling into Wales during times of restrictions. So, I think those are the main issues, namely, to respond to the changes and additional pressures as a result of COVID.

Diolch yn fawr. Oes unrhyw beth pellach, Carwyn?

Thank you. Anything else, Carwyn?

Na, does dim eisiau trydydd cwestiwn. Dwi wedi cael yr atebion, diolch.

No, I don't think I need to ask my third question. I think the questions have been answered.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Wyn Thomas unfortunately has not been able to join us for technical reasons and that is a pity, because I wanted to ask Dyfodol about a very specific recommendation they make, and that's really to look at areas of linguistic sensitivity, and instead of concentrating on mitigating measures to emphasise the need to promote and to support the language. And to trigger this, Dyfodol suggest a threshold of 25 per cent of the community being Welsh speaking and obviously we hope that is likely to grow quite robustly. So, I wonder what the witnesses think about that particular recommendation that Dyfodol have made, and whether it should be in the NDF as a requirement.

10:00

Robat, ydych chi eisiau dechrau gyda hyn?

Robat, would you like to start on this?

Diolch am y cwestiwn. Os ydych chi'n edrych ar gymunedau penodol, yna mae yna resymau pam eich bod chi'n eu trin nhw mewn ffyrdd efallai tipyn bach yn wahanol i'w gilydd, onid oes? Er enghraifft, os ydych chi'n mynd i rai o'r llefydd lle mae'r Gymraeg wedi arfer â bod yn cael ei siarad yn gyffredin, wedi mynd yn llai amlwg ond efallai'n dechrau tyfu yn ei hôl, mae yna bethau i'w gwneud i gynnal a chefnogi ymdrechion yn y fan honno. Er enghraifft, os ydych chi'n mynd i lefydd lle mae yna 25 y cant, 20 y cant, 12 y cant—dydy'r ffigur ddim yn hollol bwysig—sut mae pobl sydd yn siarad Cymraeg ac eisiau siarad Cymraeg yn cyfarfod pobl eraill sydd yn siarad Cymraeg? Rydyn ni'n gwybod bod yna lefydd fel gofodau yn cael eu creu, fel, y dywedwn ni, gaffi neu beth bynnag. Oes yna le i awgrymu rhyw gynlluniau fel y bathodynnau dyfynodau yna oedd yn cael eu defnyddio, yr un oren a melyn, chi'n gwybod, fel bod pobl yn gwybod eich bod chi'n siarad Cymraeg? Y math yna o beth sy'n syml. Ond dwi'n meddwl hefyd bod yna—.

Yn amlwg, mae gennych chi lawer o gynlluniau sydd yn digwydd yn barod, ond eich bod chi eisiau efallai gwneud mwy ohonyn nhw, fel bod dysgwyr yn cael cyfle i ymarfer eu Cymraeg mewn sefyllfa lle dydy pobl ddim yn eu beirniadu nhw, os liciwch chi, a does dim ots os ydyn nhw'n gwneud camgymeriad, a does yna ddim beirniadu ar safon, os liciwch chi, y Gymraeg. Achos, mewn ffordd, rydyn ni gyd ar daith pan rydyn ni'n dysgu iaith, onid ydyn ni? Rydyn ni bob tro yn medru gwella, p'un ai ydy o'n—. Dwi'n medru siarad Saesneg, ond mae'n siŵr y buaswn i'n medru gwella fy Saesneg. Rwy'n siarad Cymraeg o'r crud, ond gallwn i wella honno dwi'n siŵr. Felly, mae'n fater o gefnogi pobl, onid ydy? Dwi'n meddwl bod yr elfen yma, fel y gwnaethon ni gyfeirio o'r blaen, pan rydych chi'n cael cymaint o bobl yn dod i mewn, mae'r canran yn medru newid mor sydyn, fel bod y ffigurau 10 mlynedd yn ôl ddim, o bosibl, yn berthnasol ddim mwy. Achos yn y diwedd, beth rydyn ni'n sôn amdano yw rhoi hyder i bobl sydd yn siarad Cymraeg i siarad Cymraeg, a'i throsglwyddo i'w plant, a bod pobl sy'n dod i mewn yn gweld bod hyn yn beth da, mae hyn yn beth hwylus.

Mae yna bethau syml, efallai, y buasai'r Llywodraeth yn medru eu hystyried, jest i gloi'n sydyn. Er enghraifft, os ydych chi'n cael ardal Gymraeg, ac mae, dywedwn ni, bwyllgor y neuadd bentref yn cyfarfod ac wedi arfer siarad yn Gymraeg, efallai bod yna un person di-Gymraeg yn dod i mewn a does yna ddim, hyd y gwn i, ddarpariaeth cyfieithu ar gyfer hynny, nac oes? Felly, mae pobl yn dueddol o droi i'r Saesneg neu mae yna fethu siarad yn rhydd. Mae yna rhyw bethau penodol fel yna efallai y gallwn ni edrych arnyn nhw. Diolch yn fawr i chi.

Thank you for the question. If you look at particular communities, then there are reasons why you would treat them differently to each other, aren't there? For example, if you go to some of the areas where the Welsh language has been commonly spoken, where it has been in decline but is now recovering, well, there are things that you can do to support and promote efforts in those areas. For example, if you look at areas where it's 25 per cent, 20 per cent, 12 per cent—the figure isn't all that important—how do those people who speak Welsh and want to speak Welsh meet others who are Welsh speakers? We know that there are spaces being created, such as cafes and so on. Is there scope for schemes such as the orange and yellow badges that used to be used, so that people knew that you were a Welsh speaker? Those are quite simple things. But I also think that there are—.

Clearly, you have a number of plans already in place, but perhaps you need to do more with those, such as providing opportunities for Welsh language learners to practice their Welsh in non-critical scenarios, if you like, where it doesn't matter if they make a mistake and where there would be no criticism of the standard of their Welsh. Because, in a way, we're all on a journey, of course, when learning a language, aren't we? We can all improve our skills, whether it's—. I mean, I can speak English, but I'm sure I could improve my skills. I've spoken Welsh all my life, but I'm sure I could improve my Welsh too. So, it's a matter of supporting people, isn't it? I do think that this element that we referred to earlier, when you do have so many people moving in, then the percentages can change so quickly, then the figures 10 years ago, perhaps, wouldn't be relevant any more. Because, ultimately, what we're talking about here is giving people who are Welsh speakers the confidence to speak the language and to transfer the language to their children, and that people who come in see that as being a good thing and a positive step.

There are some simple things that the Government could consider, just to conclude. For example, if you have a Welsh speaking area and the village hall committee meets, and have been used to be meeting in Welsh, if you have somebody coming in who's a non-Welsh speaker, there isn't, as far as I know, any translation or interpretation provision for that, is there? So people do tend to turn to English or there's some sort of inability to speak freely. So, there are issues such as that that we could look at. Thank you.

Diolch. Dyfan, y syniad yna o ryw drothwy o 25 y cant.

Thank you. Dyfan, that idea of a 25 per cent threshold, what are your comments?

Diolch yn fawr. Dydy hwn ddim yn syniad newydd, mewn gwirionedd. Os edrychwn ni ar nodyn cyngor technegol 20, sydd yn rhoi canllaw i awdurdodau cynllunio ynglŷn â'r iaith Gymraeg yn y maes cynllunio, mae yna gyfeiriad yn fanna at alluogi awdurdodau cynllunio i lunio ardaloedd o sensitifrwydd ieithyddol. Felly, mae'r cysyniad yna'n bodoli'n barod. Mae awdurdodau lleol yn gallu pennu ardaloedd o sensitifrwydd iaith o fewn y cam cynllunio.

Beth fuaswn i'n dweud i'r cynnig yna'n benodol a'r ffigur 25 y cant ydy: mae'n bwysig, wrth gwrs, fod y Gymraeg yn ystyriaeth ym mhob rhan o Gymru, a dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n gyson efo'r disgwyliadau sydd ar gyrff cyhoeddus o dan safonau'r Gymraeg hefyd. Mae'n rhaid i bob awdurdod lleol, er enghraifft, o Fôn i Fynwy, asesu effaith polisïau ar y Gymraeg, a dyna y buaswn i'n ei ddisgwyl. O dan y drefn gynllunio, buaswn i'n cytuno bod angen ymyraethau gwahanol mewn rhai ardaloedd lle mae yna ddwysedd uchel o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Yn amlwg, mae yna bwysau mawr ar gynaliadwyedd rhai cymunedau oherwydd prisiau tai uchel, canran uchel o ail gartrefi ac yn y blaen, a dwi'n meddwl bod angen bod yn ofalus o bennu rhyw ffigur penodol nad ydy hynny wedyn yn creu ardaloedd sy'n golygu mai dim ond yn yr ardaloedd hynny mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei hystyried. Mae yna risg yn fanna, dwi'n meddwl. Mi all y gyfundrefn gynllunio wneud cyfraniad pwysig o blaid y Gymraeg, hyd yn oed mewn ardaloedd lle mae yna ddwysedd isel o siaradwyr Cymraeg hefyd. Felly, fe wnes i gyfeirio yn gynharach at y maes addysg ac is-adeiledd cymunedol, lle mae yna gyfraniad i'r gyfundrefn gynllunio hyd yn oed mewn ardaloedd yn y dwyrain lle mae yna ganran is o siaradwyr Cymraeg.

Felly, i gloi, beth sydd angen, dwi'n meddwl, ydy sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn ystyriaeth orfodol o fewn pob cynllun datblygu, ac mae o fewn pŵer, wedyn, yr awdurdodau cynllunio i sicrhau bod yna ymyraethau priodol, wedyn, o fewn eu cymunedau. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny yn system sydd yn mynd i weithio'n well na chreu rhyw fath o system ddwy haen lle mae yna ystyriaeth mewn rai ardaloedd ac efallai ddim mewn ardaloedd eraill.

Thank you. This isn't a new idea, if truth be told. If we look at technical advice note 20, which provides guidance to planning authorities on the Welsh language in planning, there is reference there to enabling planning authorities to designate areas of linguistic sensitivity. So, that concept is already in existence. Local authorities can designate linguistically sensitive areas within planning.

What I would say in terms of that proposal specifically and that figure of 25 per cent is that, of course, the Welsh language should be a consideration in all parts of Wales, and I do think that that's consistent with the expectations on public bodies under Welsh language standards too. Every local authority, for example, from Monmouthshire to Anglesey, must assess the impact of policies on the Welsh language. In terms of planning, I would agree that different interventions are required in areas where there are high percentages of Welsh speakers. Clearly, there is huge pressure on the sustainability of certain communities because of high house prices and a high percentage of second homes and so on. I think we do need to be careful in drawing up a specific figure, and placing a figure on that, that that doesn't then lead to the point where it's only in those areas that the Welsh language is considered. I think there's a risk there. The planning regime can make an important contribution in favour of the Welsh language, even in areas where the density of Welsh speakers is lower. So, I referred earlier to education and community infrastructure, where there is a contribution for the planning system to make, even in areas of east Wales where there are lower percentages of Welsh speakers.

So, to conclude, what I think we need is to ensure that the Welsh language is a material consideration within all development plans, and it is then within the powers of the planning authorities to ensure that there are appropriate interventions within their communities. I do think that that's a system that would work better than having a system where you have two different levels, where there is consideration in certain areas but not in others.

10:05

Diolch yn fawr. Dylan, wnaf i ddim tynnu chi i mewn ar hynny, achos mae yna lot o feysydd gyda ni i gyfro, ond efallai y byddwch chi'n cael cyfle i ddod nôl ar hynny yn nes ymlaen.

Thank you. Dylan, I won't bring you in here, because we have a number of areas that we want to cover, but you may have an opportunity to come back to that issue in later questions.

Anything further from you, David?

Yes. I'm still on, am I? Chair, I do apologise. I don't think any colleagues have got specific housing questions following—

We haven't, I don't think, so by all means if you've got something.

Yes, I just want to put it to the witnesses. Housing has been a particular interest of mine in the fifth Senedd, and the NDF talks about 'affordable housing', which is a wider concept—much wider, actually—than social housing. Do you think it would be better if we were to focus it the other way around and talk about social housing? That would mean local authorities are much more responsible for meeting the housing needs of local populations, whereas—. They don't have a 'get out of jail card' with affordable housing, but they can say, 'Well, the developers are not coming forward and providing it', whereas if we shift to social housing, both the local authorities and the Welsh Government, I suppose, through housing associations and the like, have a much more active responsibility and we're shifting, then, from mitigation to promotion and support, perhaps.

Thank you, David.

Dyfan, ydych chi am ddechrau gyda hwn?

Dyfan, would you like to start on that?

Ie, diolch. Mae yna gyfeiriadau yn y fframwaith at dai fforddiadwy a chartrefi cymdeithasol, ac fel rydych chi'n dweud, maen nhw'n golygu pethau gwahanol iawn. Dwi'n meddwl, o safbwynt y Gymraeg, mae hwn yn fater o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn y bôn, sef galluogi pobl i fyw yn eu cymunedau lleol os ydyn nhw'n dymuno gwneud hynny. Y risg mae—[Anhyglyw.]

Yes, thank you. There are references in the framework to affordable housing and social housing, and as you say, they mean very different things. I do think, from the perspective of the Welsh language, this is an issue of social justice, ultimately, namely enabling people to live in their local communities if they wish to do so. The risk with affordable housing is that it's possible for various different reasons for local authorities to justify why that hasn't been provided. Now—[Inaudible.]

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:08 a 10:16.

The meeting adjourned between 10:08 and 10:16.

10:15

Bore da, eto, a chroeso nôl i gyfarfod Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu'r Senedd. Mae'n ddrwg gen i am y toriad. Cyn y toriad technegol, roeddem ni'n trafod yr issues tai y mae David Melding wedi'u codi. So, Dyfan Sion, roeddech chi yn nghanol dechrau sôn ynglŷn â'r hawl i fyw yn eich cymuned chi eich hunain, ac yn y blaen, so, os dwi'n gallu mynd nôl atoch chi.

Good morning, again, and welcome back to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee of the Senedd. I apologise for that short break. Before that break, we were discussing housing issues raised by David Melding. So, Dyfan Sion, you had just started to talk of the right to live in your own community, and so on, so if we could go back to you.

Diolch yn fawr. Jest i gloi'r sylwadau, mewn gwirionedd. Oherwydd prisiau tai uchel a'r canran uchel o ail gartrefi mewn rhai cymunedau, mae o'n anodd iawn i rai pobl allu aros yn eu cymunedau os ydyn nhw'n dymuno gwneud ar hyn o bryd. Yn amlwg, mae hynny'n fater o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol hefyd. Felly, o safbwynt tai fforddiadwy a chartrefi cymdeithasol, y risg ydy bod tai fforddiadwy yn fwy agored i'r farchnad a bod yna lai o reolaeth a llai o allu i gynllunio a darparu. Felly, os ydy canolbwyntio'n fwy ar gartrefi cymdeithasol yn gwella'r broblem sy'n wynebu lot o gymunedau Cymraeg, a bod hynny'n gallu digwydd ynghynt, yna dwi'n cytuno efo'r sylw yn y cwestiwn.

Thank you very much. Just to conclude my comments, because of high house prices and a high percentage of second homes in some communities, it can be very difficult for some people to remain within their own communities if they wish to do so. And clearly, that is an issue of social justice. So, from the point of view of affordable housing and social housing, the risk is that affordable housing is more open to market conditions and there is less control and less ability to provide according to need. So, if focusing more on social housing would improve the problems facing Welsh-speaking communities, and that could happen more swiftly, then I would agree with the comment made in the question.

Diolch. Robat, o ran safbwynt y gymdeithas.

Thank you. Robat, from the perspective of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

Dwi'n cytuno efo beth mae Dyfan wedi'i ddweud. Buaswn i'n atgoffa'r pwyllgor fod tua 40 y cant, dwi'n credu, o dai ddaeth ar y farchnad yng Ngwynedd wedi cael eu gwerthu fel ail gartrefi neu ar gyfer busnes gwyliau yn ddiweddar yma. Byddwn i hefyd yn eich atgoffa, eto yng Ngwynedd, dwi'n meddwl bod yna rywbeth yn debyg i 67 y cant o dai yn eiddo preifat, felly, yn amlwg, mae gan y sector gyhoeddus le yn y farchnad dai.

Mae'r hawl i do uwch eich pen yn greiddiol, a dweud y gwir, i'r ddynoliaeth, onid ydy? O safbwynt sut rydych chi'n ei wneud o, mae yna ddau gwestiwn. Un ydy: sut ydych chi'n darparu tai, os ydyn nhw'n fforddiadwy, efo'r peryglon iddyn nhw ddod allan i'r farchnad agored? Neu, yn gymdeithasol, eto, efo'r cymdeithasau tai cymdeithasol yma, mae'n rhaid ichi ofyn y cwestiwn: ydyn nhw wedi mynd yn rhy fawr ac yn rhy gorfforaethol ar hyn o bryd? Dwi'n meddwl efallai bod angen i ni edrych ar ddeddfwriaeth ynglŷn â—nid 'efallai'; mae eisiau i ni edrych ar ddeddfwriaeth ynglŷn ag a ydy o'n foesol gywir bod pobl efo ail gartref, neu ail dŷ, lle nad ydy pobl eraill ddim efo nhw. Mae yna le i edrych ar ardaloedd penodol lle mae twristiaeth wedi mynd yn ordwristiaeth, lle dylid pennu uchafswm, os liciwch chi, o dai sydd yn gwasanaethu, neu farchnad ail gartrefi, neu fasnach dwristiaeth mewn rhyw ffordd, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys Airbnb. Mae yna enghreifftiau mewn llefydd eraill lle rydych chi’n tynnu’r pwysau i raddau a phethau felly.

O ran perchnogaeth tai, mae yna le i ofyn y cwestiwn pam ydym ni, os liciwch chi—y rhan fwyaf ohonom ni, mae'n siŵr—yn gobeithio anelu at fod yn berchen ar dai, tra, ar y cyfandir, dydy hynna ddim yn uchelgais o'r un fath, nac ydy? Achos, yn y pen draw, os ydy fy nhŷ i wedi cynyddu yn ei werth sawl gwaith ers i mi ei brynu o, yn y pen draw, dydy o ddim yn llawer o elw i mi, achos, taswn i eisiau symud, dwi’n gorfod rhoi pres mwy amdano fo. Ac mae'n rhaid inni feddwl am y bobl sydd yn ein dilyn ni ar yr hen gornel yma o'r byd, onid oes? Diolch yn fawr i chi.

I agree with what Dyfan has said. I would remind the committee that around 40 per cent of the houses that came onto the market in Gwynedd were sold as second homes or as holiday lets recently. I would also remind you that, again in Gwynedd, something in the region of 67 per cent of housing is in private hands, so, obviously, the public sector has a role in the housing market.

The right to a roof over your head, of course, is a fundamental human right, isn't it? In terms of how you deliver that, well, there are two questions. One is: how do you provide housing, whether they are affordable, with the risk that they will become available on the open market? Or, social housing, again, with the housing associations, you have to ask the question as to whether they've got too large and too corporate. I think perhaps we need to look at legislation—well, not 'perhaps'; we do need to look at legislation as to whether it's ethical that people should be able to own a second home, or a second house, where others can't afford a first home. We need to look at particular areas where there is too much emphasis on tourism where there should be, perhaps, a maximum limit on the housing market that serves tourism, including Airbnb, or the second home market. There are examples in other places of where that's done.

Now, in terms of home ownership, there is scope to ask the question as to why, I think, most of us would aim and hope to be home owners, whilst, on the continent, that simply isn't the case. So, ultimately, if my home has increased in value a great deal since I bought it, it's no profit to me, because I would have to spend more on my next home. And we do have to bear all of that in mind and think about those who come after us, of course. Thank you.

10:20

Diolch yn fawr. Dylan, oes gen ti rywbeth i ychwanegu yn y maes yma—tai cymdeithasol neu dai fforddadwy?

Thank you. Dylan, do you have anything to add on this issue—on social housing or affordable housing?

Nid felly, dwi ddim yn meddwl. O safbwynt Cymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd, wrth gwrs, mae'r cwestiwn o dai haf, Airbnb ac ati, ail dai, a sut maen nhw'n cael eu hysbysebu yn codi cwestiynau. Rydym ni wedi clywed, yn anecdotaidd beth bynnag, o bobl sy'n ceisio gosod tŷ a wedi dod o dan bwysau gan yr asiantaethau masnachol sydd yn hysbysebu'r bythynnod yma, er enghraifft—maen nhw o dan bwysau i newid yr enw i enw Saesneg. Ond, ar y pwnc yma'n benodol, nac oes.

Not as such. From the perspective of the Welsh Place-Name Society, of course, the question of second homes, Airbnb, holiday homes and how they're advertised raises questions. We've heard anecdotally of people who are trying to let a home and have come under pressure from the commercial agencies that advertise those cottages—they're under pressure to change the names to an English name. But, on the specific issue, I have nothing particular to add.

Diolch yn fawr. David, anything further? Thank you very much. So, we'll turn now to John, to John Griffiths—you've got some questions about rural communities and tourism.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da. We've heard already some concerns about the issues around rural areas and the language and the NDF, and we had some concerns expressed in written evidence that was provided on the NDF as part of the consultation process. Is there anything specific you would like to say today in terms of how the NDF might be changed to deal with those concerns? If there is seen to be an over-concentration on some of the urban clusters in terms of the language—and we all know how important rural areas have been to the Welsh language, and still are—is there anything specific you'd like to see in the NDF that would cater for those concerns?

Gwnaf i gychwyn efo chi, Robat, os caf i.

If I could start with you, Robat.

Diolch am y cwestiwn. Gwnes i gyfeirio'n gynharach at edrych yn ofalus iawn ar y system gynllunio yn benodol, ac i ailadrodd beth ddywedais i gynnau ynglŷn ag uchafswm o dai sydd yn y farchnad dwristiaeth mewn ardal benodol, yn bersonol—mae'n bosib iawn buasai’r gymdeithas yn cefnogi, ond byddai’n well gennyf i wahardd rhagor o ail gartrefi, a dweud y gwir, ac edrych ar ffyrdd y gallwn ni ddod â thai sydd yn wag y rhan fwyaf o’r flwyddyn i ryw fath o ddefnydd fel eu bod nhw o les i bobl leol, o bosib ar rent. Edrych ar ganol trefi gwledig wedyn, os liciwch chi, sut mae adfywio'r rheini ac efallai dod â rhai o'r tai sydd yn gwneud dim byd ar hyn o bryd, neu siopau gwag, yn llefydd gallai pobl fyw ynddyn nhw. Dwi yn meddwl bod y cwestiwn o sut mae'r pwysau'n cael ei roi o ran y pwyntiau, os mai dyna'r gair cywir, ynglŷn â chael tai cymdeithasol—oes yna le inni edrych ar fedru'r Gymraeg, neu eich bod chi'n magu'ch plant yn Gymraeg, neu beth bynnag sydd yn deg a chywir i'w wneud, yn cael ei gyfrif fel rhan o'r pwyntiau sydd yn cael eu rhoi? Mae yn gwestiwn cymhleth, ac mae angen mynd iddo fo mewn dyfnder, ond dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n beth da bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwybodol o'r cwestiwn, a dydy hwn ddim yn mynd i ddiflannu; mae'n mynd i fynd yn fwy amlwg. Mae'r ffaith bod yna gymaint o anghyfartaledd economaidd ydy craidd y broblem, a dweud y gwir, ac mae hynny yn ymwneud â ffactorau y tu hwnt i Gymru, wrth gwrs; rydym ni’n gwybod hynny. Ond, o fewn ein gallu, mi ddylwn ni wneud y gorau gallwn ni. Ac efallai mae eisiau symud y pwyslais—yn lle ein bod ni’n dweud rydym ni’n gorfod amddiffyn, rydym ni ar y droed ôl trwy’r amser, trio symud y peth ac yn dweud, 'Dyma rydym ni eisiau ei wneud; dyma rydym ni eisiau ei wneud i symud ymlaen’ yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n teimlo, 'O, mae’r byd ar ben' trwy’r amser. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for that question. I referred earlier to looking very carefully at the planning system, and, to repeat what I said earlier, a maximum number of homes available in the tourism market in a particular area. Now, personally—I am speaking personally here—I would want to see a prohibition on more second homes. But we also need to look at how we can return homes that are empty for most of the year so that they would be available and benefit local people, perhaps available for rent. We should look at the centre of rural towns and how we can regenerate those and how we can bring empty properties back into use and make them into habitable properties. I think the question of pressures in terms of social housing and the points system in terms of accessing houses—is there scope to look at Welsh language skills, or if you're bringing your children up through the medium of Welsh, or whatever's fair that could be considered as part of the points system for social housing? It's a complex question and it needs to be looked at in some depth, but I do think that it's a good thing that the Welsh Government is aware of the issue, and this isn't going to disappear; it's going to become more prominent. And the fact that there is so much economic inequality, that's the core of the problem, and that relates to factors beyond Wales, of course; we're aware of that. But, within our powers, we should do the best that we can. And perhaps we need to shift the emphasis. Rather than saying that we need to protect, and being on the back foot constantly, we need to shift the perspective and say, 'Well, this is what we need to do to make progress' rather than us always thinking, 'Well, the world's at an end.' Thank you.

Ie. Yn anorfod, mae trwch helaeth datblygu tir ac adeiladu'n digwydd mewn ardaloedd trefol, onid ydy, ac yn sicr mi ddylai unrhyw ddatblygu yng nghefn gwlad ddigwydd yn sensitif ac ar raddfa briodol. Ond i ateb y cwestiwn yn benodol, o ran newidiadau i'r fframwaith, fel y dywedais i, dwi yn meddwl, yn sgil ein profiadau ni o ddelio efo COVID a'r newidiadau parhaol efallai a fydd yn digwydd i gymdeithas, fod yna ormod o ganolbwyntio ar ganolfannau dinesig yn y fframwaith, ac mi fuaswn i'n dymuno gweld mwy o ffocws yn cael ei roi ar ganolfannau lleol, y syniad yma o hybs lleol, rhywbeth mae'r Llywodraeth eisoes yn edrych arno fo beth bynnag. Dwi'n meddwl beth mae COVID yn ei ddangos inni yn amlwg ydy ein bod ni'n gallu byw a gweithio o bell ac yn hyblyg, a dwi'n meddwl mae'n bwysig bod hynny'n cael ei adlewyrchu wedyn yn y fframwaith, gan fod hon yn ddogfen hirdymor, onid ydy, i'r dyfodol.

Y peth arall fuaswn i'n ei ddweud hefyd o ran cymunedau cefn gwlad ydy mae'n bwysig bod yr isadeiledd yna, onid ydy, i gefnogi cymunedau cefn gwlad i allu mynd i ganolfannau gwaith, felly isadeiledd trafnidiaeth, trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus—mae yna dipyn o hynny yn y fframwaith a bod yn deg—ond hefyd isadeiledd band eang cyflym. Ac eto mae hynny wedi cael ei amlygu gan y cyfnod COVID diwethaf yma, ac mi fuaswn i yn dymuno efallai mwy o bwyslais ar hynny o fewn y fframwaith.

Yes. Inevitably, most building and land development happens in urban areas, and certainly any developments in rural areas should happen in a sensitive and appropriate manner. But to respond specifically to the question, in terms of changes to the framework, as I said earlier, I do think, given our experiences of dealing with COVID and the permanent changes there may be within society, that there is too much focus on urban centres within the framework, and I would want to see more focus placed on local centres, this idea of local hubs, something that the Government is already looking at. I think what COVID has shown us is that we can live and work remotely and flexibly, and I do think it's important that that is reflected within the framework, because this is a long-term document, looking to the future.

Another thing I would say in terms of rural communities is that it's important that the infrastructure is there to support rural communities so that they can access work. So, you need transport infrastructure, public transport—there is a fair bit of that in the framework—but you also need fast broadband. And that's again been highlighted by COVID, and I would want to see more emphasis on that perhaps within the framework.

10:25

Diolch. Dydy'r cwestiwn yma ddim cweit mor berthnasol i chi, Dylan, ond gwnaf i gychwyn gyda chi â'r ail gwestiwn gan John ynglŷn â thwristiaeth, achos rydych chi wedi dechrau cyffwrdd ar y effaith ar enwau o bosib. John.

Thank you. I'm not sure if this question is quite as relevant to you, Dylan, but I will start with you on John's second question on tourism, because you have touched upon the impact on place names in that area. John.

Yes. I guess it's a bit double hinged in terms of tourism, in a way, isn't it, because, if we want to strengthen and sustain the economies in rural Wales, tourism is very important to that, increasingly important, but, at the same time, I know there are concerns about the nature of tourism and its effect on the language, and, again, we've seen some views on that in terms of the process around the NDF. So, is it about the specific type of tourism? Is there a sort of tourism, a particular tourism, that we could try and develop in Wales that wouldn't have some of the perceived negative impact on the Welsh language?

Dylan, gwnaf i gychwyn efo chi. Rydych chi wedi sôn yn barod ynglŷn â rhai asiantaethau efallai yn rhoi pwysau ar bobl sydd yn llogi i newid enwau i'w gwneud nhw yn fwy approachable i bobl Saesneg eu iaith—so, effaith twristiaeth ac oes yna fodd cael mathau o dwristiaeth sydd yn fwy positif o ran yr iaith a diwylliant.

Dylan, I'll start with you. You've already mentioned some agencies putting pressure on people who let their homes to change the names of those properties to make them more approachable for non-Welsh speakers—so, the impact of tourism and is it possible to have types of tourism that are more positive in terms of language and culture.

Diolch. Wel, rwy'n credu bod, oherwydd—hynny yw, mae yna ganran uchel iawn o dwristiaeth yng Nghymru sydd yn ymwneud â diwylliant a threftadaeth. Mae yna ofnau weithiau bod Cymru'n cael ei chyflwyno i'r byd fel gwlad wag, fel petai—hynny yw, mynyddoedd a thraethau ond dim pobl a dim diwylliant. Felly, mae yna efallai le i wneud rhagor ar hynny, ac mae yna ymchwil academaidd sydd yn dangos bod y diwylliant unigryw, gan gynnwys yr iaith ac yr enwau lleoedd, yn aml iawn i dwristiaid, fel un o'r pethau cyntaf y mae'n nhw'n eu gweld, yn atyniadol iawn, a hynny'n arbennig o wir i dwristiaid rhyngwladol y byddem ni i gyd yn falch iawn o'u denu.

Mae o'n wir hefyd i bobl o weddill Prydain, ond efallai nid bob tro, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith gennym ni i'w wneud i wneud yn siŵr nad oes yna ddim agweddau negyddol yn cael eu cysylltu â'r iaith Gymraeg o fewn cyd-destun twristiaeth a bod hynny ddim yn rhoi pwysau ar unigolion yn y cymunedau yma i ddarparu mewn ffordd benodol sydd yn ymylu neu yn tanseilio neu yn cuddio'r diwylliant lleol. Mae yna rywfaint o bryder bod hynny yn gallu digwydd. Yn sicr mae yna duedd i weld unedau gwyliau ac ati yn cael eu gosod—yn aml iawn mae'r enw yn cael ei newid yn enw yn Saesneg eithaf generig, efallai 'Seaview' neu 'Clifftop' neu'r math yma o enw. Yn aml iawn, dydy'r enw gwreiddiol Cymraeg ddim yn cael ei newid yn swyddogol, mae'n dal yna ar gofrestr y Post Brenhinol, ond eto mae'n newid y dirwedd ieithyddol yn weledol. Felly, mae hwnna o gonsern inni hefyd.

A dwi'n meddwl—roeddwn i'n edrych yn ddiweddar ar enghraifft o Shetland, lle'r oedden nhw yn darparu gwybodaeth i dwristiaid ac ati ynglŷn â'r iaith yn hanesyddol dros y canrifoedd a'r dafodiaith leol fel rhywbeth i ymfalchïo ynddo hi. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n dal ar ei hôl hi o ran y math yna o waith.

Thank you. Well, I think that's a possibility, because a high percentage of tourism in Wales relates to culture and heritage. There are certain fears that Wales is presented to the world as an empty space—just beaches and mountains, but no culture and no people. So, there is scope to do more there, but there's academic research that demonstrates that Wales's unique culture, including the language and place names, is very attractive to tourists, and that's particularly true for international tourists, and we would all be very pleased to attract them, of course.

It's also true for people from the rest of the UK, but not always, and I think there is some work to be done to ensure that there are no negative attitudes linked to the Welsh language in that context of tourism and that that doesn't put pressure on individuals within the communities to provide in a particular way that marginalises, undermines or even hides the local culture. There is some concern that that can happen. There certainly is a tendency to see holiday units being let where the name is changed to an English, generic name—'Seaview' or 'Clifftop' or that kind of name. Now, very often, the original language of the name isn't officially changed, it's still there on the Royal Mail register, but it changes the linguistic landscape in a visual manner. So, that's a concern for us.

And I was looking recently at an example from Shetland, where they provided information to tourists on the language and the local dialect as being something to take pride in, something that had been there for generations and centuries. I think we're behind in terms of that kind of work.

10:30

Ie. Diolch. Fel sydd wedi cael ei ddweud, mae'r diwydiant twristiaeth yn gwneud cyfraniad economaidd pwysig i'n cymunedau ni, ac, o safbwynt y Gymraeg hefyd, mae'r data sydd gennym ni—rydym i'n gwybod, er enghraifft, o'r cyfrifiad diwethaf, fod sectorau fel lletygarwch yn un o'r sectorau efo'r canran uchaf o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn gweithio ynddo fo. Felly, mae'r diwydiant twristiaeth yn cyflogi lot o siaradwyr Cymraeg; rydym ni'n gwybod hynny. Mae'n bosibl dadlau, efallai, fod yna orddibyniaeth ar dwristiaeth fel diwydiant mewn rhai ardaloedd, ac efallai bod angen strategaethau lleol i fynd i'r afael â hynny.

Ond y peth arall buaswn i'n dweud, jest i ategu beth mae Dylan wedi ei ddweud—mae'r iaith Gymraeg hefyd yn arf marchnata unigryw i Gymru, ac rydym ni'n ymwybodol o nifer o asiantaethau, busnesau, bellach sy'n gwneud defnydd o'r Gymraeg fel arf marchnata. Mae yna fwy y gallem ni ei wneud, dwi'n meddwl, i hybu hynny, ac i edrych ar ddiwylliant fel rhywbeth sydd yn bosib i ymgorffori'n fwy i'n darpariaeth dwristiaeth ni. Felly, dwi'n meddwl dyna'r prif sylw, ond dwi'n meddwl bod angen edrych hefyd ar dwristiaeth fel rhan o strategaethau economi lleol i weld os oes modd, efallai, cael economi mwy amrywiol mewn rhai cymunedau.

Yes, thanks. As has already been said, the tourism industry does make an important economic contribution to our communities, and, from the perspective of the Welsh language, the data that we have—we know, for example, from the last census that sectors such as hospitality are one of the sectors with the highest percentage of Welsh speakers working within it. So, the tourism industry does employ a great many Welsh speakers; we're aware of that. One could argue, perhaps, that there is an over-reliance on tourism as an industry in certain areas. Perhaps we do need local strategies to tackle that.

But the other thing I would say, just to echo what Dylan said—the Welsh language is also a unique marketing tool for Wales, and we're aware of many agencies and businesses now that make use of the Welsh language as a marketing tool. There is more that we could do, I think, in order to promote that, and also to look at culture as something that could be more strongly incorporated into our tourism offer. So, I think that would be my main comment, but I do think that we also need to look at tourism as part of local economic strategies to see whether we can have a more diverse economy in certain communities.

Diolch. Robat Idris, oes gennych chi bethau i'w hychwanegu?

Thank you. Robat Idris—anything to add?

Wel, dwi'n meddwl bod Cymru yn dioddef o or-dwristiaeth o fath arbennig, ac dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna—mae'r dystiolaeth ddiweddar i gyd yn dweud hynny wrthym ni, a dweud y gwir, ac mae COVID dim ond wedi, os liciwch chi, amlygu'r eithafiaeth hynny, onid ydy? Mae gennym ni ardaloedd lle rydym ni'n gwybod bod y pentrefi wedi troi bron iawn i fod yn ddi-Gymraeg, ac mae'r Cymry sydd yna yn gweithio efallai yn y diwydiant twristiaeth, rhai ohonyn nhw'n berchen ar y busnes twristiaeth, ond y rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw yn fusnesau sy'n eiddo i bobl o du allan i Gymru, neu'n sicr i'r ardal leol, a phobl sy'n gweithio yn y diwydiant yn cael cyflogau sydd ddim yn rhy wych, ac mae'n waith tymhorol. Yn sicr, mae yna le i edrych ar faint o dwristiaeth rydych chi'n caniatáu mewn ardaloedd penodol. Eto, rydych chi'n dod nôl i'r system cynllunio, onid ydych?

O ran mathau eraill o dwristiaeth y gallwch chi eu cynnig, mae'n rhaid inni ddweud bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cefnogi cynllun Dolen, sy'n cysylltu ardaloedd y llechi yn y gogledd, sef Dyffryn Nantlle, Dyffryn Ogwen ac ardal Ffestiniog, ac mae yna fentrau cymunedol yn y llefydd hynny megis Cwmni Bro Ffestiniog, megis Pengwern yn Llan Ffestiniog. Mae yna hefyd llefydd cymunedol fel Llety Arall yng Nghaernarfon, Tafarn yr Heliwr, Tafarn y Plu, Tafarn Sinc lawr yn y gorllewin yna. Wedyn mae'n bosib, efallai, i gynllunio a chreu rhyw fath o deithiau diwylliannol/ieithyddol, ond, yn naturiol, mae'n rhaid inni dderbyn—ar hyn o bryd, beth bynnag— mai cyfran fechan o'r economi twristiaeth ydy hynny, ac mae yna waith adeiladu arnyn nhw.

Dwi'n meddwl bod y cwestiwn mwyaf ydy: faint o dwristiaeth medrwn ni ei derbyn? Faint sy'n gynaliadwy, ac ydy o'n un o'r diwydiannau yma sy'n echdynnol, an extractive industry, yn y pen draw? Achos rydym ni'n darparu'r rhesymau mae pobl yn dod yma, megis Eryri, megis yr Wyddfa. Rydym ni wedi gweld llwyth o bobl yna. Efallai y dylem ni fod yn edrych ar dreth o ryw fath, sut bynnag rydych chi'n mynd i weithredu hynny, a bod pobl yn talu am fwynhau'r cyfleusterau, p'un ai ydy o o ran faint maen nhw'n talu yn eu gwesty neu dalu am docyn i fynd lan yr Wyddfa neu beth bynnag ydy o—mae yna wahanol ffyrdd o edrych ar hyn, wrth gwrs, onid oes? Ond, hynny ydy, hyn a hyn o bobl leol sy'n mynd i ymelwa o dwristiaeth, ond mae pawb sy'n lleol yn gorfod rhoi i fyny efo sgil effeithiau gor-dwristiaeth. Felly, mae'n iawn inni gael arian am hynny, dwi'n meddwl.

Well, I think Wales is suffering from too much tourism, and the recent evidence all points to that. COVID has only highlighted the extremes of that. There are areas where we know that, in the villages, the Welsh language has almost disappeared. The Welsh speakers who remain sometimes work in tourism, sometimes own tourism businesses, but, for the most part, the businesses are owned by people from outwith Wales, or certainly outwith the local area, and people working in the industry aren't paid particularly well, and it's very seasonal work. So, there's certainly scope to look at how much tourism you would allow in particular areas. Again, you're coming back to the planning system here.

In terms of other kinds of tourism that one could offer, I'm pleased to say that the Welsh Government is supporting the Dolen scheme, which links the quarrying areas of north Wales—Nantlle Vale, Dyffryn Ogwen and the Ffestiniog area—and there are community enterprises in those areas, such as Cwmni Bro Ffestiniog, Pengwern in Llan Ffestiniog. There are also community spaces such as Llety Arall in Caernarfon, Tafarn yr Heliwr, Tafarn y Plu, Tafarn Sinc down in west Wales. So, perhaps you could plan and create cultural/linguistic tours for tourists, but, naturally, we have to accept—at the moment, at least—that that's a small percentage of the tourism economy, but that could be built upon.

I think the major question is: how much tourism can we absorb? What is sustainable? Is it one of these extractive industries, ultimately? Because we have the reasons why people come here: Snowdonia, Snowdon. We've seen the crowds on Snowdon. We perhaps should be considering a tax of one kind or another where people would pay to enjoy these facilities, whether it's how much they pay for their hotel or whether they have to buy a ticket to climb Snowdon. There are different approaches that one could adopt, of course. But only so many local people will benefit from tourism, but everyone will have to put up with the impact of too much tourism. So, I think they should be recompensed for that.

Diolch yn fawr, Robat. Sori i dorri ar draws, ond dwi'n ymwybodol iawn o'r amser.

Thank you. Sorry to interrupt, Robat, but I'm very aware of the time.

Anything further, John?

Thank you. So, the last couple of questions from Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. Can you hear me okay? Good. Just a couple of short questions. The national development framework adopted a sort of regional approach. It started off with three regions and now has shifted to four regions. I'm just wondering what concerns there are about the particular approach that's been adopted, the particular regional approach, and some of the concerns around that about whether that is sufficient. And also then some issues with regard to, I suppose, the governance of those particular structures. So perhaps you could let me know your views on that. 

10:35

Dyfan Sion, os gallwn ni gychwyn gyda chi. 

Dyfan Sion, if we could start with you. 

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi ddim yn siŵr pa mor gynaliadwy ydy'r ardaloedd gofodol, os dwi'n onest. Dwi'n derbyn y ffaith bod y Llywodraeth wedi addasu'r cynllun yn sgil trafodaethau yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad, ac mae hynny'n beth da. Ond dwi'n ymwybodol hefyd, er enghraifft, bod y Bil llywodraeth leol yn mynd trwy'r Cynulliad ar hyn o bryd, ac mae yna gyfeiriadau yn hwnnw at greu byrddau a strwythurau rhanbarthol newydd. Y bwriad, mae'n debyg, ydy creu haen ranbarthol newydd ar gyfer llywodraeth leol, ac mi fydd hi'n ddiddorol gweld beth fydd y rhanbarthau hynny. Mae hynny'n bodoli'n barod, onid ydy, i raddau—mae yna gonsortia addysg rhanbarthol, mae yna ffiniau gwahanol i fyrddau datblygu economaidd, ac yn y blaen. 

Dau bwynt buaswn i'n eu gwneud. Jest i ateb y cwestiwn ynglŷn ag atebolrwydd, mae hynny'n sicr yn rhywbeth sy'n ein poeni ni. Mae yna ddiffyg atebolrwydd i strwythurau rhanbarthol yn gyffredinol. Fel corff sy'n rheoleiddio dyletswyddau statudol, mae hynny'n broblem, achos mae'r dyletswyddau statudol sydd gennym ni, safonau'r Gymraeg a nifer o ddyletswyddau statudol mewn meysydd eraill, yn cael eu gosod fel arfer ar gyrff unigol, endidau cyfreithiol. Felly, pan mae yna gymaint o benderfyniadau a gwaith wedyn yn digwydd drwy bartneriaeth ar lefel rhanbarthol, mae yna fwlch atebolrwydd, o bosib. 

Yr ail beth wedyn y buaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy hyd yn oed os oes yna ardaloedd rhanbarthol gofodol yn cael eu pennu, mae'n bwysig hefyd bod yna gyfle i arbrofi efo partneriaethau gwahanol tu hwnt i'r ffiniau hynny yn unig. Ac o safbwynt y Gymraeg, er enghraifft, rydyn ni'n ymwybodol bod cynllun Arfor wedi cael ei ddatblygu dros y misoedd diwethaf, sydd yn bartneriaeth rhwng pedair sir yn y gorllewin. Felly, mae'n bwysig, dwi'n meddwl, bod yna gyfle i arbrofi gyda phartneriaethau mewn ardaloedd eraill hefyd. Ac o ran y cynllun Arfor yn benodol, mae angen cynnal adolygiad o hwnnw a dysgu gwersi wedyn o effeithiolrwydd y cynllun yna.

Felly, dyna'r ddau beth. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna bryder ynglŷn ag atebolrwydd strwythurau rhanbarthol, a hefyd mae'n bwysig bod yna gyfleoedd i allu cydweithio mewn partneriaethau tu hwnt a thu allan i'r ffiniau sy'n cael eu gosod. 

Thank you very much. I'm not sure how sustainable the spatial areas are, if I'm perfectly honest. I do accept that the Government has amended the scheme as a result of the consultation, and that's a positive thing. But I'm also aware, for example, that the local government Bill is currently on its passage through the Assembly. There are references there to creating regional boards and structures. The intention, it appears, is to create a new regional level for local government, and it'll be interesting to see what those regions will look like. That already exists, of course, to a certain extent—you have the regional education consortia, you have different boundaries for economic development boards and so on and so forth. 

There are two points that I'd like to make. Just to respond to the question on accountability, that is certainly something that concerns us. There is a lack of accountability in terms of regional structures more generally speaking. As a regulatory body with oversight of statutory duties, that creates a problem, because those statutory duties that we have in terms of Welsh language standards and a number of other statutory duties are placed on individual bodies, legal entities. So, when there are so many decisions then happening through the regional partnerships, there is an accountability deficit, perhaps. 

The second thing I would say is that, even if there are spatial regional areas designated, then it's also important that there is opportunity to experiment with different partnerships beyond those boundaries. And in terms of the Welsh language, for example, we are aware that there has been the Arfor scheme that's been developed over the past months, which is a partnership between four west Wales counties. So I think it's important that there is opportunity to experiment with other partnerships in other areas, too. And in terms of Arfor particularly, we need to conduct a review and learn lessons from that in terms of the effectiveness of that scheme.

So those are the two things. There are concerns about accountability in terms of regional structures and also, perhaps, there may be opportunities for collaboration in partnerships beyond the boundaries currently set. 

Diolch. Oes gyda Robat neu Dylan unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu at hyn? Robat.

Thank you. Do Robat or Dylan have anything to add to this? Robat. 

Dwi'n ategu beth mae Dyfan yn ei ddweud ynglŷn ag atebolrwydd y byrddau rhanbarth. Fel dwi'n deall, bydd yna bobl sydd heb eu hethol yn eistedd ar y byrddau hynny, sydd ddim yn beth iach iawn, dwi ddim yn meddwl. Rydych chi fel arfer yn gofyn pam maen nhw yna. Mi wnes i gyfeirio yn gynharach, ar ddechrau fy nhystiolaeth, at y ffaith bod y rhanbarthau fel y maen nhw yn pwysleisio datblygu cysylltiadau pellach efo'r llefydd dinesig a threfol yn Lloegr ac, yn fy marn i, buasai hynny'n beth ddrwg i'r Gymraeg, achos mae'n tynnu'r ffocws economaidd hyd yn oed yn fwy tua'r dwyrain pan rydyn ni yn ardaloedd y gorllewin yn cael trafferthion enfawr fel y mae hi a dweud y gwir. A dwi wedi hefyd sôn am yr holl syniad yma bod yn rhaid inni ailedrych ar y ffordd rydyn ni'n darparu a dosbarthu gwaith. Ac fel rydyn ni wedi clywed, mae'n haws gwneud hynny nawr nag y byddai hi wedi bod. Mae'r pwyslais ar yr isadeiledd o ran rheilffyrdd a ffyrdd—o'r dwyrain i'r gorllewin ac i Loegr yn hytrach nag o'r de i'r gogledd o fewn Cymru—yn rhywbeth i'w resynu ato fo, a dweud y gwir. 

I'd endorse what Dyfan has said on accountability in terms of the regional boards. As I understand it, there will be unelected members of those boards, which I don't think is healthy. You would usually ask why they are there. I referred earlier at the beginning of my evidence to the fact that the current regions do emphasise creating further links with urban areas in England and, in my view, that would be damaging to the Welsh language, because it moves the economic focus even more towards the east when we in western areas are having huge problems as it is. And I've also mentioned this whole concept of the need to review how we provide work opportunities. The emphasis on infrastructure in terms of rail and road—from east to west and into England, rather than north-south within Wales—is something that we would regret. 

Diolch. Oes gennych chi unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu, Dylan? Mae hi dipyn bach tu allan i'ch maes chi.

Thank you. Do you have anything to add, Dylan? It's perhaps outside your remit. 

Dim ond yn fyr iawn, mae'r gymdeithas yn ymddiddori mewn enwau lleoedd drwy Gymru gyfan, felly de sir Benfro i fyny i sir y Fflint, sir Fôn, sir Fynwy—bob man. Yr unig beth buaswn i'n ei nodi ydy ei bod hi'n ymddangos bod mwy o ddiddordeb, hyd yn oed ar lefel swyddogol awdurdodau lleol, mewn rhai ardaloedd o Gymru nag eraill. Efallai bod hynny'n gysylltiedig efo ardaloedd lle mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn gryfach. Ond byddwn i yn poeni petasai yna unrhyw sefyllfa yn codi lle roedd y ffocws yn mynd yn rhy lleol ar enwau lleoedd, achos mae'n berthnasol i Gymru gyfan.

Very briefly, the society takes a great interest in place names throughout Wales, from southern Pembrokeshire to Monmouthshire, to Flintshire, to Anglesey. All I would note is that it appears that there is more interest, even at an official local authority area, in certain areas than others. So that may be linked to areas where the Welsh language has traditionally been stronger. But I would be concerned if a situation were to arise where the focus became too local, because place names are relevant to the whole of Wales. 

10:40

Diolch yn fawr. Anything further, Mick? Mick, I'm sorry, you're still muted. Can we unmute Mick please?

I take it that the move from three to four spatial areas is welcome, but that, of course, still includes areas that are incredibly diverse. I wonder what the concerns are about whether four actually is better, and perhaps the best approach, or what concerns there might be about the diversity, even within those regions themselves that are being suggested. Will they work, basically?

Mae'n anodd ateb y cwestiwn yna, onid ydy, ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna strwythur rhanbarthol o bedair rhanbarth yn bodoli mewn meysydd eraill yng Nghymru yn barod. Beth sy'n bwysig yn y maes cynllunio yn benodol—. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae'r maes cynllunio wedi cael ei arwain yn weddol sirol, felly cynlluniau datblygu lleol. Ac yn fanna, mewn gwirionedd, mae'r polisïau sydd yn effeithio ar gymunedau Cymraeg. Dwi'n meddwl rydyn ni'n croesawu'r fframwaith datblygu cenedlaethol, ac fel rydyn ni wedi trafod yn gynharach, mae o yn gosod strwythur cyson cenedlaethol. Mae yna gysylltiadau wedyn efo strategaethau o ran y Gymraeg. Ond mae yna gwestiwn ynglŷn â'r lefel rhanbarthol. Mae o'n bosib i awdurdodau ddod at ei gilydd i lunio cynlluniau datblygu strategol sydd ar lefel rhanbarthol, ond hyd yma, dwi ddim yn meddwl ein bod ni wedi gweld unrhyw gynllun o'r fath. Felly, mae yna bryder, ac mae yna gwestiwn ac ansicrwydd, dwi'n meddwl, ynglŷn â sut yn union bydd y lefel rhanbarthol yn gweithio, beth fydd yn ffitio yn y canol rhwng y cynlluniau datblygu lleol â'r fframwaith datblygu cenedlaethol. A dwi ddim yn sicr eto sut fydd hynna'n gweithio, ond mae o'n gonsérn achos dydy'r wybodaeth ddim yna ar hyn o bryd. 

It's difficult to answer that question at the moment, isn't it? There is a four-region regional structure in existence in other areas in Wales already. And what's important in planning particularly—. Over previous years, planning has been led at a local authority level, with local development plans. And that's where the policies impacting on Welsh-speaking communities sit. Now, I think we welcome the national development framework. As we discussed earlier, it does put in place a consistent national structure. There are then linkages with Welsh language strategies. But there is a question mark as to the regional level. Now, it's possible for local authorities to come together to draw up strategic development plans at a regional level, but, to date, I don't think we have seen any such plans. So, there is concern, and I think there is some question and some uncertainty as to how exactly the regional level will work, what will fit in the middle between the LDPs and the national development framework. And I'm not entirely sure how that will work, but it's a concern because the information simply isn't there at the moment. 

Diolch. Oes gyda Dylan neu Robat unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu at hyn? Robat.

Thank you. Does Dylan or Robat have anything to add to this? Robat.

Dim ond i ddweud beth ddywedais i o'r blaen, a dweud y gwir, ein bod ni'n rhagweld bod yr holl syniad yma yn mynd i filwrio yn erbyn y Gymraeg, am y rhesymau dwi wedi'u dweud yn barod. Ac mae yna bosibilrwydd, pe bai nhw wedi eu llunio mewn ffordd wahanol, y gallen nhw helpu'r Gymraeg, ond fel mae nhw'n sefyll rŵan, fyddan nhw ddim, mae arna i ofn.

Only to repeat what I said earlier, that we do anticipate that this whole context will militate against the Welsh language, for the reasons I've already set out. And I think there is a possibility that if they had been drawn up in a different way, that they could support the Welsh language, but as things stand, they won't help, I'm afraid. 

Thank you very much. 

Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i'n tri tyst ni. Diolch yn fawr iawn i'n tystion. Byddwn ni'n danfon trawsgrifiad o'r cyfarfod atoch chi er mwyn i chi sicrhau ein bod ni wedi cofnodi popeth yn gywir. Diolch yn fawr iawn am sesiwn ddiddorol, ac ymddiheuriadau eto am y problemau technegol yn y canol. So, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, a hwyl fawr. Croeso cynnes i chi ein gadael ni pan dŷch chi'n barod. So, dwi'n mynd i awgrymu i'm cyd-Aelodau ein bod ni'n cael 10 munud o doriad—jest llai na 10 munud o doriad rŵan. Dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cael brêc bach. Ac os gallwn ni drio dod nôl tua 10:55.

Thank you very much to our three witnesses. We will be sending you a transcript of the meeting so you can check it for accuracy. Thank you very much for a very interesting session, and apologies once again for the technical problems during the session. So, thank you very much, and goodbye. You're welcome to leave us when you're ready to do so. So, I'll suggest to fellow Members that we now have a 10-minute break—a little less than 10 minutes, perhaps. I think it's important that we do have a short break. And if we could return by 10.55.

If we can bring the meeting to a break, and if you can come back at about five to, please.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:44 a 10:55.

The meeting adjourned between 10:44 and 10:55.

10:55
3. COVID-19: effaith y pandemig ar gerddoriaeth fyw
3. COVID-19: impact of the outbreak on live music

Bore da eto, bawb, a chroeso nôl i gyfarfod Pwyllgor Diwylliant, yr Iaith Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Dŷn ni'n symud nawr at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, lle dŷn ni'n ailedrych ar y gwaith dŷn ni wedi'i wneud yn barod ar gerddoriaeth fyw ac yn canolbwyntio'n benodol ar effaith y crisis presennol ar y diwydiant cerddoriaeth fyw. Dŷn ni'n falch iawn o groesawu pedwar tyst atom ni.

Good morning once again and welcome back to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee meeting. We move now to item 3 on our agenda, where we are returning to the work that we've already done on live music and focusing specifically on the impact of the current public health crisis on live music. We are very pleased to welcome our four witnesses.

A very warm welcome to our four witnesses.

Gwnaf i fynd o gwmpas y sgrin fel dwi'n ei weld e, a gofyn i chi gyflwyno eich hunain. So, dechrau gyda Guto Brychan.

I will just go around the screen as I see it and ask you to introduce yourselves. So, we could start with Guto Brychan.

Guto Brychan ydw i a dwi'n brif weithredwr Clwb Ifor Bach. Dwi hefyd yn gweithio ar ŵyl Maes B ar gyfer yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol.

I'm Guto Brychan. I'm chief executive of Clwb Ifor Bach. I also work on the Maes B festival for the National Eisteddfod.

Diolch yn fawr. And Gary—Gary, I can't pronounce your surname properly. If you say that for me, I'll get it right from here on in. Gary.

It's Lulham. My name is Gary Lulham. I'm the owner and manager of Sin City in Swansea, which is a 500 and 250-cap live music and events space.

I'm Sam Dabb. I'm the manager of Le Pub in Newport, which is a community-owned 100-cap music venue. And I also work for the Music Venue Trust, representing venues across Wales.

A very warm welcome to you, Sam. Thank you for joining us. Dilwyn Llwyd.

Fy enw i ydy Dilwyn Llwyd a fi ydy rheolwr Neuadd Ogwen yn Bethesda, Gwynedd. Mae o'n venue amlbwrpas a rydyn ni'n canolbwyntio dipyn ar gigs—un o'n prif bethau ni—a mae'r capasiti yn 400.

My name is Dilwyn Llwyd and I'm the manager of Neuadd Ogwen in Bethesda, Gwynedd. It is a multipurpose venue and we focus on gigs as one of our main activities. The capacity is 400.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I thank all four of you for joining us. We'll go straight into questions.

Fe wnaf i ddechrau gyda rhai cwestiynau eithaf mawr, eithaf cyffredinol. So, os dŷch chi jest yn gallu disgrifio i ni beth yw sefyllfaoedd eich busnesau chi. A, Sam, efallai gallwch chi ychwanegu, yn fwy cyffredinol, am fusnesau tebyg dros Gymru. Pa mor hawdd fyddai, pan fydd y pandemig yn ei ganiatau, ailgychwyn â cherddoriaeth byw yng Nghymru? Felly, ar y sefyllfa bresennol, gwnaf ddechrau efo Guto.

I will start with some general questions. Could you just set out what the state of your businesses is? And, Sam, perhaps you could refer more generally to similar businesses across Wales. Once the pandemic allows us to do so, how easy would it be to recommence live music in Wales? So, if you could set out the current position. I'll start with Guto.

O ran y sefyllfa bresennol i ni yng Nghlwb Ifor Bach, dŷn ni wedi bod ar gau ers canol mis Mawrth. Ein unig incwm ni rili ydy incwm tocynnau ac incwm bar, felly does yna ddim incwm o unrhyw sylwedd wedi dod i mewn i'r cwmni ers mis Mawrth. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn ddibynnol ar y furlough scheme, ac arian rydyn ni wedi llwyddo derbyn gan Creative Wales a Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru hyd yma i fedru cadw'r busnes i fynd. Mi wnaethon ni i lwyddo ailagor am ryw bedwar neu bum penwythnos ar ddiwedd mis Awst, dechrau mis Medi pan oedd hi'n bosib ailagor fel tafarn, ond yn anffodus, unwaith ddaeth y cyrffyw 10 o'r gloch i mewn, roedd yn ariannol anhyfyw i ni gario ymlaen, gyda 70 y cant o'n hincwm yn dod mewn ar ôl 10 o'r gloch, felly fe wnaethon ni benderfynu cau unwaith eto. Dŷn ni'n aros ar hyn o bryd am benderfyniad ar y nawdd diwylliannol trwy Lywodraeth Cymru. Gobeithio, os cawn ni benderfyniad positif yn fanna, byddwn ni mewn sefyllfa wedyn i gadw'r cwmni'n dormant, mewn ffordd, hyd at ddiwedd y gwanwyn yn y gobaith y bydd y sefyllfa'n newid rhyw ben bryd hynny.

O ran ailddechrau, mae'n ddibynnol, i ryw raddau, ar beth yw'r diffiniad o ailddechrau. Dwi'n rhagweld y bydd hyn yn dod mewn camau. Mae'n bosib ailagor fel tafarn, yn gyntaf, os na fydd cerddoriaeth fyw yn cael ei chaniatáu. Unwaith bydd cerddoriaeth fyw yn cael ei chaniatáu, yna mae'n debygol y bydd rhaid i ddigwyddiadau dal fod yn socially distanced, a diwedd y siwrnai yna mewn ffordd ydy digwyddiadau yr oeddem ni'n eu gwneud cyn y pandemig. O ran yr ochr ariannol, dyw agor fel tafarn na gigs socially distanced ar eu pennau eu hunain ddim yn mynd i fod yn ddigon i gadw'r cwmni i fynd fel oeddem ni cyn y pandemig. Dŷn ni'n cyflogi 10 o staff llawnamser yma, 30 o staff rhan-amser, a nifer fawr o weithwyr llawrydd hefyd. I fedru cario ymlaen i gyflogi'r nifer yna o bobl, mi fydd angen i ni fedru gweithredu o dan amgylchiadau'n agos iawn i beth oeddem ni cyn i COVID daro. Pa mor hir mae hyn yn mynd i gymryd? Does wybod, a hyd yn oed petai hynna yn gallu dechrau fory, dweud, mae e dal yn mynd i gymryd wythnosau, misoedd, os nad hirach, i ddod yn ôl i'r pwynt lle bydd gennym ni raglen o ddigwyddiadau tebyg i beth oedd gennym ni mewn lle cyn mis Mawrth.

The current position for us in Clwb Ifor Bach is that we have been closed since mid March. Our only income, really, is through tickets and bar sales, so we've had no income of any substance coming into the company since March. We've been reliant on the furlough scheme and the funds that we've received from Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales to keep our business afloat. We did manage to reopen for four or five weekends at the end of August and beginning of September when it was possible to reopen as a pub, but unfortunately, once the 10 o'clock curfew came in, it was financially unsustainable for us to remain open because 70 per cent of our income came in after 10, so we decided to close again. We are currently waiting for a decision on the cultural fund through the Welsh Government. Hopefully, if there's a positive decision there, then we will be in a position to keep the company dormant until the end of spring in the hope that the situation will change at some point around then. 

In terms of recommencing activities, it depends, to a certain extent, what you mean by restarting. I anticipate that this will be a phased approach. We perhaps may reopen as a pub, first of all, if live music isn't allowed. Once live music is allowed, then it's likely that events will still have to be socially distanced, and the end of the journey, in a way, is a return to the kind of events that we would stage prior to the pandemic. In terms of the financial situation, opening as a pub and socially distanced gigs alone aren't going to be enough to keep the company afloat, as we were before the pandemic. We employ 10 full-time staff here, 30 part-time staff, and many freelance workers as well. So, if we were to continue to employ that many people, we would have to operate in circumstances very close to the situation pre-COVID. Now, how long is this going to take? Well, who knows? And even if that could recommence tomorrow, it's still going to take weeks, perhaps months, perhaps even longer to get back to the point where we would have a programme of events similar to what was in place pre March. 

11:00

Diolch yn fawr, Guto. Gary Lulham. Can we unmute Gary, please?

Hi. To be honest, my situation couldn't mirror Guto's much more, to be honest. We've been closed since March. We haven't had any sort of income since then. We will be closed, I believe, again, certainly for the rest of the year, probably into January, February and March; I don't see much of a return before spring. We haven't been able to operate as a bar or any sort of other style of venue, and I don't see foresee a way in which we really could at this point. We currently have—again, we've been incredibly reliant on the furlough scheme and Government grants and all of the help that's been available in order to keep us afloat. We have three full-time staff and up to 30 part-time staff and a host of freelancers who also work for us, and again, yes, a lot of them are either currently out of work or reliant on the furlough scheme, as it currently stands. 

The return to live events, as Guto said, is going to be a phased approach, it would seem. I believe we're probably in quite a strong position to start offering socially distanced live music now. I don't see any reason, necessarily, why, when delivered in a safe and secure way, it couldn't be delivered now. It certainly is in England and across other parts of the UK. So, I don't see why it couldn't happen now and then slowly work our way back to what hopefully will be a normal, but how far that is off, I don't know.

Our position's slightly different because we also operate as a community hub and pub, so we have been able to open. We opened, I think, two to three weeks after the guidance allowed us, just so that we could make sure that we had everything in place. The curfew is crippling for venues like ours because, as Guto said, most of our income comes after 10 p.m. and the curfew—. I mean, in my belief, it doesn't even help because everyone's on the streets at the same time and all of our customers are just at house parties rather than in my pub, where they're tracked and traced and distanced.

I think, with regard to returning to live music, I don't understand why Wales isn't encouraging socially distanced gigs at present, because there is a study from Bristol University that shows that there isn't really a risk of transmission any higher from a vocalist being in the same room as you, so I think socially distanced gigs as soon as possible is something that we do need to look at for those venues that it would work for.

The furlough scheme coming to an end is a massive, massive problem, but I don't think it's as much of a problem as the fact that the Creative Wales funding for venues across Wales is to cover the period October to March, but none of us have actually even heard if we've been successful yet, let alone had the funding, and we're into the middle of November. So, while the Government identified a need for this funding to be in place for these months, the money hasn't been released, so it's causing huge, huge problems for venues across Wales. I've got five venues currently on my critical list, telling me that their rent is due, their electric bill is due, and I don't understand why—. I mean, I understand that there's a lot of red tape; it's more funding than that department's ever had to put out before, but something needs to change there and that might be—

Sam, can I just ask you—? That is obviously a real worry. Can you remind the committee when the closing date for that fund was, so how long they've had to start getting the money out of the door?

11:05

I think it was 2 October—I'd have to look on my laptop.

Okay. So, they've had a good month to start getting it out of the door.

That's helpful. Sorry to cut across you, but I think it was important to get that on record.

No, no problem. That's pretty much all I had to say anyway. That's the major worry for us, as Music Venue Trust, is how many of our venues haven't yet received the funding that the Government recognised needed to be in place.

Dwi'n cytuno efo lot o'r pethau mae'r lleill yn ei ddweud, a dweud y gwir. O'n sefyllfa ni, dŷn ni wedi bod ar gau hefyd i'r cyhoedd ers mis Mawrth. Rydyn ni'n dal ar gau. Rydyn ni hefyd yn awyddus i edrych y posibiliadau o gynnal gigs sydd yn social distanced, ond y broblem ydy, er bod yna artistiaid sydd yn fodlon bod yn hyblyg efo fees a ballu, dydy o ddim yn viable ar y funud i wneud hynny. Felly, dwi'n meddwl os dŷn ni'n gobeithio dod â gigs yn ôl, dydy o ddim yn mynd i fynd o ddim gig i gapasiti; mae hynny'n amlwg. Felly, dwi'n meddwl yn y misoedd nesaf, mae eisiau meddwl am ffordd o ddechrau 'ease-io' pethau i mewn, ac arbrofi efo gigs.

Rydyn ni'n gweithio fel sinema hefyd, ac rydyn ni wedi bod yn gweithio efo Film Hub, ac maen nhw wedi cefnogi ni ar gyfer arbrofi efo ffilmiau ar ddechrau'r flwyddyn nesaf. Dydyn ni ddim yn mynd i wneud dim pres o hynny, ond mae'r gefnogaeth yna'n mynd i'n helpu ni jest dechrau'r broses, a dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i allu ei wneud o; dydy yr un venue yn mynd i allu ei wneud o, os nad oes yna gefnogaeth i hynny, achos dydy o jest ddim yn viable. Rydyn ni jest yn mynd i roi ein hunain mewn mwy o beryg wrth wneud hynny.

Ond, dŷn ni wedi bod yn gweithio'n galed iawn ers mis Mawrth; dŷn ni ddim wedi bod yn segur. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn chwilio i weld sut dŷn ni'n gallu datblygu fel busnes a chwilio am ffynonellau eraill, ond yn amlwg, fel unrhyw fusnes o'r newydd, os ydych chi'n trio pethau newydd, mae'n mynd i gymryd amser i ddatblygu. Dydyn nhw ddim yn mynd i greu llwyth o arian ar yr amser yma, felly dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn dda ein bod ni'n gwneud hynny, ond dydy o ddim yn ateb i ni. Felly mewn ffordd, rydyn ni mewn sefyllfa debyg iawn i Guto a Sam.

Well, I agree with much of what the other witnesses have said. Our situation is that we've been closed to the public since March. We remain closed. We're also eager to look at the possibilities of staging socially distanced gigs, but the problem is that, although there are artists who are willing to be flexible in terms of fees and so on, it isn't viable at the moment to do that. So, if we are hoping to bring gigs back, it's not going to go from zero to full capacity at once; that's obvious. So, I think over the next three months, we do need to think of a way of phasing things in, and experimenting with approaches to gigs.

Now we work as a cinema too, and we've been working with Film Hub, and they have supported us in experimenting with films at the beginning of next year. We're not going to make any money from that, but that support will help us to begin the process. Now, no venue is going to be able to do this unless there is support available; it simply isn't viable. We're just going to put ourselves at greater risk if we try and do that without support.

But we have been working very hard since March; we haven't rested on our laurels. We've been looking at how we can develop as a business and how we can find alternative sources. But as with any business, or any new venture, if you are trying new things, then it's going to take time to develop. You're not going to make a huge amount of money immediately, so I think it's positive that we're seeking to do that, but it's not a solution for us. So in a way, we're now in a very similar position to Guto and Sam.

Diolch. Cyn i fi dynnu John Griffiths i mewn, jest o ran y syniad yna o socially distanced gigs—

Thank you. Before I bring John Griffiths in, just in terms of that concept of socially distanced gigs—

—if that was possible, would you—? Because you're businesses as well as community businesses, aren't you; some of you are purely commercial and some of you are community as well. If you were able to open for socially distanced gigs, would you be able to make enough profit from doing that? I know, obviously, you don't know, because you haven't tried yet, but would you be able to—? Do you think you'd be able to make enough profit to be able to make that a viable way to proceed? I'll start with Sam, and then I'll come to Dilwyn.

Yes, I think, with the funding that's been put in place that covers costs for the next six months. Socially distanced gigs aren't just about making money at the moment; they're also about bringing culture back to the people in our communities, because obviously, for the venues that are successful in the funding—which, I do believe is going to be most of the venues; I think there is enough money there to fund most of us—I think it's more about bringing music back to Wales. Because we have customers that are telling us that there's an ache in their hearts because they haven't seen a live gig and I feel it, and it's something that's really important in Wales, and I think it's important that we bring it back as soon as we can.

Dwi'n cytuno efo Sam yn fan yna. Dydy'r syniad o wneud gigs efo social 'distance-io', dydy o ddim yn syniad o wneud pres; mae'n syniad i wneud colled. Dŷn ni'n barod wedi rhoi cynllun at ei gilydd ar gyfer gwneud hynny, ond hyd yma, dydyn ni ddim wedi ffeindio ffordd o wneud iddo weithio.

Felly, fel arfer, os dŷch chi'n trefnu gig—a dwi'n siŵr y gwnaiff pawb arall gytuno—anaml iawn dŷch chi'n mynd i wneud lot o bres allan o docynnau beth bynnag. Rydyn ni eisiau bod yn deg a chefnogi artistiaid hefyd, felly dŷch chi yn mynd i golli pres os ydych chi jest yn mynd i gymryd risg eich hunan. Wel, dydy o ddim yn risg, a dweud y gwir; dŷch chi'n gwybod eich bod chi'n mynd i wneud colled os ydych chi'n mynd i—dŷch chi ddim yn mynd i allu cael digon o bobl i mewn. Ond dŷn ni wedi edrych ar gynllun lle buasem ni'n gallu cael nifer fach iawn o bobl i mewn. Mae ein venue ni yn dal 400, so roedden ni wedi cyfrif, cyn i'r Llywodraeth newid y rheolau ychydig o wythnosau yn ôl, roedden ni'n gallu cael 32 o bobl i mewn yn saff. A dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n nifer fach, ond buasai fo'n fan cychwyn, a buasem ni'n gallu adeiladu ar hynny wedyn.

Yes, I would agree with Sam there. The idea of socially distanced gigs isn't about making money; it's bound to make a loss. But we've already put a plan in place in order to do so, but to date, we haven't found a way to make it work.

So usually, if you arrange a gig—and I'm sure everybody would agree with this—it's very seldom that you'd make a lot of money from ticket sales. We want to be fair and support artists too, so you are going to make a loss if you're just going to take that risk upon yourself. Well, it's not a risk; you know you're going to make a loss, because you're not going to be able to get the numbers in. But we've looked at a plan where we could have a very small number of people in. Our venue holds 400 people, so before the Government changed the rules a few weeks ago, we believed that we could get 32 people in safely. Now, that's a very small number, but it would be a start, and we could then build on that. 

11:10

Ie, dwi'n cytuno. Os yw pobl lwyddiannus yn cael nawdd o'r gronfa ddiwylliannol, yna mi fuasai'r cyfle i dreialu gigs socially distancing yn rhywbeth y buasai'r sector yn ei groesawu.

Un o'r pethau mae'n werth nodi hefyd, yn ogystal â'r pwyntiau roedd Sam yn eu gwneud o ran rhoi digwyddiadau ymlaen yn y gymuned eto, mae artistiaid eu hunain wedi bod yn dioddef yn fawr dros y cyfnod hyn, so mae'n gyfle i roi rhywfaint o bres yn ôl i'r artistiaid. Ond ffactor arall sy'n werth ystyried ydy ar hyn o bryd, mae'r sector ym Mhrydain, yn enwedig o ran y grass roots, yn dechrau trefnu teithiau eto. Mae lot o'r bandiau buasai yn chwarae yn rhywle fel Clwb neu Le Pub a ballu yn gwneud teithiau socially distanced yn Lloegr, a dŷn ni methu cynnig dyddiadau iddyn nhw yng Nghymru. So, mae yna beryg, os yw'r discrepancy yma'n mynd ymlaen yn rhy hir, dŷn ni'n mynd i golli cysylltiad efo'r sector ehangach, ac mae'n mynd i'w wneud e lot yn anoddach inni ailadeiladu'r sector cryf oedd efo ni'n bodoli ar gyfer cerddoriaeth newydd yng Nghymru unwaith y mae'r cyfle i wneud y digwyddiadau'n dod i ni eto.

Yes, I agree. If people are successful in getting funding from the culture fund, then there would be an opportunity to trial socially distanced gigs, and that would be something the sector would welcome.

One of the things that's worth noting too, as well as Sam's comments on staging events for the community, I think artists themselves have been suffering greatly over this period, so it's an opportunity to provide some money for the artists. But another factor that's worth considering is that, at the moment, the sector in Britain, particularly the grass roots, is starting to arrange tours again. A lot of the bands that would play in Clwb or Le Pub are now touring on a socially distanced basis in England, and we can't offer them dates in Wales. So, there is a risk that if this discrepancy remains in place for too long, then we are going to lose touch with the broader sector, and it's going to make it much more difficult for us to rebuild the strong sector that we had for new music in Wales once we have an opportunity to stage events in future.

No, I was going to pick up on the point that Guto just made about being potentially later on ignored if we're not part of the system now.

I think maybe the last and final point I'd make is that putting on socially distanced gigs, whilst not necessarily financially beneficial, would allow me to get people back into work. Some of those people who would work on those events are freelancers, who currently aren't on my PAYE system, so haven't had the support, and haven't had the furlough scheme, so it would allow me to get them back into work, and they can start earning again.

Continuing, really, with the coronavirus restrictions, and how we can get live performance back in Wales. Sam, do you have much sense, then, to what extent the live venue industry in Wales is up for this? If there were the possibilities, as you've just suggested they might be shaped, do you think that most of the live music venues in Wales would want to be part of that?

Yes, I do, 100 per cent. We've already got a venue in Swansea that is putting bands on in the venue with no audience, and then live-streaming into the garden where customers are sitting, drinking beer and just watching a band that they know is in the room behind them on a big screen. People are—the venues and the customers are desperate to get back to live music; absolutely desperate. 

Okay. We've touched already on the 10 p.m. curfew, and I think, Sam, you said that you think that, apart from anything else, it's counterproductive in terms of people getting out onto the streets at the same time, and the house party alternative. Do any of you have any particular suggestions as to what might take its place; how it might be modified, rather than just being scrapped and going back to as things were before the virus?

Personally, I think that people are going to be drinking until 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning—that's the nature of human beings, it's going to happen. If they're doing it in venues that are tracking and tracing and insisting they sanitise and insisting they distance, then I think they're much safer. We're not going to stop people partying, but the more control we have over the environment they do it in, the safer we can keep them. I know Newport City Council, for example, when we first reopened, staggered the streets. So, they closed each street within half an hour of each other, which really, really helped, so maybe something like that. And I know to keep it fair, one street closed at 12.30 a.m. and the other at 1 a.m., and then they switched them backwards the other week so that no-one was disadvantaged by hours. I think that was really, really useful, because that kept traffic in the taxi ranks and the takeaways to a minimum, and there were no queues there. For me, I think we just go back to letting people open as they were, but with certain measures in place, with COVID-secure measures in place, and maybe staggered closing times.

11:15

Does anybody else want to add to that, to John's question? Gary.

Yes, hi. Obviously, I'm not trading at the moment, so it doesn't particularly necessarily affect me directly, but I'm also the chair of the Swansea hospitality forum, so I represent bars and pubs across Swansea. To echo what Sam says, I honestly still haven't seen any real evidence for why it was brought in. I understand the theory behind it, but I haven't seen any practical evidence as to the effect it might have had, or as to why it was brought in in the first place. I think the city centres are filled with incredibly responsible business owners who have bent over backwards from the start of the pandemic in order to be able to operate their businesses, and at quite considerable expense as well, with regard to screens, infrastructure changes, health and safety precautions. They're constantly risk assessing. This is an industry that's built on operating to legislation. You know, the licensing Act 2005 is full of legislation that tells us how to operate: we must age-check customers, we must search customers—the whole industry is built on us operating to guidelines and rules. So, this is just more of those, and I think that—yes, I agree with Sam in that we should be allowed, or those venues should be allowed, to operate to their licence, but under COVID-secure, socially distanced conditions. I think that's probably the safest way forward.

I'll bring Mick in, in a minute. 

Guto a Dilwyn—ydych chi'n moyn ychwanegu? 

Guto or Dilwyn—anything to add? 

Roeddwn i jest eisiau cytuno efo beth roedd Gary a Sam yn ei ddweud. Un ffactor sydd angen ei ystyried hefyd ydy bod y costau o ailagor o dan y mesuriadau ychwanegol yma yn mynd i fod yn uwch ar gyfer cwmnïau. Mae angen mwy o staff i wneud yn sicr bod y lleoliadau yn cydymffurfio efo'r rheolau newydd. Pan oeddem ni ar agor, roeddem ni'n gweithredu table service, so roedd yna sut gymaint o staff efo ni ar gyfer agor ar nos Sadwrn lle'r oedd y capasiti chwarter beth yw e yn normal, beth fuasem ni'n ei gael ar nos Sadwrn normal, ond yn amlwg mae'r incwm yn dipyn is. Buaswn i'n cytuno, felly, efo gadael i leoliadau fasnachu tuag at yr oriau yn eu trwydded bresennol er mwyn sicrhau y gwahaniaethau yna yn yr amser mae'r llefydd yn cau fel does yna ddim pinchpoints yn digwydd. Dyna fuasai'n galluogi mwy o lefydd i agor ac i agor yn saff.

I just wanted to agree with the comments made by Gary and Sam. One factor that we need to take into account also is that the costs of reopening under these current restrictions are going to be higher. You will need more staff to ensure that venues are compliant with the new rules. When we reopened, we were operating with table service, so we needed so many staff to open on the Saturday evening where the capacity was only 25 per cent of what we would usually get on a Saturday, so the income, of course, is a lot lower. So, I would agree with allowing venues to trade according to their current licensing hours, in order to ensure those differences in terms of closing time could be in place to avoid pinchpoints. That would allow more venues to open and to open safely. 

Roeddwn i jest yn cytuno efo pawb, a dweud y gwir. Ond mae ein sefyllfa ni—. Roeddwn i jest eisiau dweud bod ein sefyllfa ni ychydig bach yn wahanol achos rydym ni mewn tref ac mae pawb arall efo venue mewn dinas, felly mae'r sefyllfa yn wahanol. Dydym ni ddim yn cael cymaint â hynna o passing trade; rydym ni jest yn cael y bobl sy'n dod i'r gig. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna le, hefyd, i venues a'r gynulleidfa fod yn hyblyg, a dwi'n meddwl diogelwch ydy'r peth mwyaf pwysig inni i gyd. Dydym ni ddim eisiau ein bod ni'n ailagor a bod hynna yn creu mwy o ddifrod ac amharu ar iechyd bobl, ond dwi'n meddwl bod cyfyngu o ran amseroedd—dwi ddim yn deall sut mae hynna yn mynd i helpu. Hyd yn oed mewn venue lle bach fath â un ni, ond yn sicr yn ddinesig, dwi'n meddwl bod gallu rheoli pobl mewn sefyllfa mewn venue yn haws na'u rheoli nhw pan fyddan nhw'n gadael y venue.

I just wanted to agree with all the comments made. I just wanted to say that our situation is slightly different because we're in a town rather than a city, so the situation is different. We don't get so much passing trade; we just get the people who attend the gig. But I think there's also scope for venues and audiences to be flexible, and I think safety is the most important thing for all of us. We don't want to reopen and then see that actually having an impact on people's health, but I do think the restrictions on time and the curfew—I don't understand how that is going to help. Even in a venue in a small place such as ours, but in urban areas certainly, being able to manage people within a venue is easier than actually managing people outside a venue.

I can understand the points being made about social distancing and the desire to get live music going. One of the concerns that's been raised, of course, is that, where you have a rapidly increasing infection rate with the virus, the whole issue of large numbers of people travelling, often travelling collectively, then gathering and then having to go to a venue and so on, is a problem. When you were opening, how was that particular aspect addressed, particularly when people were gathering to enter, and so on? Do you see that as a particular concern or a particular valid concern?

Who'd like to start? Sam, do you want to start with a response to that?

Yes, I can do. One of the things—. I can only speak personally for my venue on this one, but one of the things that we put in place was booking times. So, we knew what time people were arriving because we had table bookings and we could make sure that we had staff outside, ready to ask these—you know, they distanced in the queue outside, we seated them, we staggered the table bookings to every half an hour, so we didn't get a sudden rush at eight o'clock and a sudden rush at 10 o'clock. So, I think that's—. One thing I do want to raise while we're talking about table bookings is that the First Minister mentioned dwell times for groups from separate households inside. I personally think that's a really silly idea, because it's going to encourage pub crawls. If four people can only meet in my pub for an hour, they're just going to book the pub next door for the next hour, and the pub next door to that for the hour after. And if one of those people, unfortunately, is asymptomatic and spreading the virus, they're going to spread it into three pubs, not one. So, I think that's something that I genuinely would like raised as soon as possible, because I feel like it's actually a really dangerous idea. I understand probably where the First Minister and the health advisers have got that from, but, from the trade, it doesn't seem to make any sense to me at all.

11:20

It's an interesting point. Anybody else want to respond to Mick around his questions? Dilwyn.

Ie. Roeddem ni wedi gweld, yn wahanol i Sam, a dweud y gwir—sori, Sam—. Roeddem ni wedi meddwl efallai creu math o grwpiau. So, dwi’n meddwl y cwestiwn gwreiddiol, y ffordd dwi’n gweld hwnna ydy, gan ein bod ni’n mynd i gyfyngu niferoedd, felly mae venue sy'n dal 400 dim ond yn gallu cymryd 32 o bobl ar y funud, os ydych chi’n mesur allan yr ystafell, felly, mae’n hawsach cyfyngu ei farchnata fo a denu pobl i gig yn lleol achos dydych chi ddim angen mynd allan ymhellach. Felly, os ydy’r niferoedd yn fach rydych chi’n gallu eu cael i mewn, dydych chi ddim angen cael reach mawr iddo fe.

Ond, Sam, roeddwn i’n teimlo bod sefyllfa yr un fath â cabare yn mynd i weithio i ni, fel ein bod ni yn creu math o grwpiau teuluol neu bubble efo’i gilydd, a bod hynna’n fwy diogel. Dwi’n deall pwynt Sam; dwi ddim yn mynd yn erbyn beth mae Sam yn ei ddweud, ond beth dwi’n ei ddweud ydy: roedd hynna’n rhan o’n cynllun ni. Ond hefyd, rhan o’n cynllun ni oedd ein bod ni’n stagro faint o’r gloch mae pobl yn ei gyrraedd, fel roedd Sam yn ei dweud, ac wedyn ein bod ni—. Rydym ni newydd wneud cais i weld os gallen ni gael ap ar gyfer bwcio diodydd ac yn y blaen. A gan fod y niferoedd mor fach, roeddem ni’n amcangyfrif ein bod ni’n gallu bod mewn cyswllt cyson, yn y cychwyn, efo pob un booking i ddweud, 'Dyma faint o’r gloch rydych chi’n cyrraedd; yn fan hyn rydych chi’n mynd i eistedd; dywedwch wrthon ni, drwy’r ap, pa ddiodydd rydych chi eu heisiau' fel eu bod nhw’n gallu bwcio pob dim o flaen llaw. Felly, mae yna gymaint llai o contact yn mynd i fod. Maen nhw’n mynd i gerdded mewn, mae yna ddiodydd yna. Os ydyn nhw eisiau mwy, bydd yna system yn ei lle i ofalu eu bod nhw cael nhw mewn ffordd ddiogel.

Yes. Unlike Sam—apologies, Sam, but we thought that creating those groups would be a good thing. I think the original question, the way I see that is, because we are going to limit numbers, so we have a venue with a capacity of 400 and we can only take 32 people at the moment, if you measure out the room capacity, so, it's easier to market things locally and attract people to a gig locally because, if the numbers are small, then you don't need to have a broad reach to your marketing.

But, Sam, we felt that a cabaret-type scenario would work for us, so we could accommodate family groups or other bubbles, and that would be more secure. Of course, I understand Sam's point; I'm not going against that, but what I'm saying is that was part of our plan. But another part of our plan was to stagger arrival times, as Sam said, and we've also made an application to see if we can have an app in order to order drinks and so on. And because the numbers are so small, we believe that we could be in regular contact with all bookings to say, 'Well, this is your arrival time, this is where you'll sit, tell us, through the app, what drinks you want' so that everything can be booked beforehand and then there will be so much less contact. They'll walk in, the drinks will be available. If they want more, then we have a system in place that they can have those drinks in a safe way.

Guto, roeddech chi'n awyddus i ddod mewn, dwi'n meddwl.

Guto, you wanted to come in, I think.

Ie, jest i ategu rhywfaint at beth mae Dilwyn a Sam wedi bod yn ei dweud, ar gyfer y lleoliadau dŷn ni’n eu trafod fan hyn, y sector grassroots, dyw’r venues ddim yn fawr i gychwyn, a wedyn, os yw'r gigs yn mynd i fod yn rhai socially distanced, mae’r gynulleidfa yn mynd i fod yn eithaf bach. So, mi fydd o’n eithaf rhwydd i reoli, fel roedd Dilwyn yn sôn. I gychwyn, rŷn ni’n mynd i fod yn targedu pobl yn yr ardal leol. Mae’n mynd i fod yn wahanol iawn cael gig i 50 o bobl neu beth bynnag lle mae modd trefnu'r amseroedd mai pobl yn dod mewn i club night arferol ar y penwythnos cyn COVID, lle mae gen ti giw anferth lawr y stryd. Cynulleidfaoedd bach dŷn ni’n sôn amdanyn nhw fan hyn ar gyfer ein llefydd ni, ar gyfer y gigs ar ddechrau’r cyfnod yma o fedru aildrefnu pethau. Felly, dwi ddim yn teimlo bod e’n gonsérn mawr. Ond, yn amlwg, mi fydd yn un o’r pethau y byddwn i’n rhoi mewn unrhyw risk assessment wrth ailddechrau ac ailedrych ar hyn.

Yes, just to echo what Dilwyn and Sam have been saying, for the venues we're discussing here in the grass-roots sector, the venues aren't large in the first place, and then, if the gigs are going to be socially distanced, then the audience is going to be quite small, so it will be quite easy to manage, as Dilwyn mentioned. First of all, we will be targeting people in the local area. It's going to be very different if you're staging a gig for 50 people were you can organise arrival times for your clientele to an ordinary club night pre COVID, where you have a huge queue running down the street. We're talking about very small audiences here for these gigs, in the first instance, as we begin to reopen, so I don't feel that it's a huge concern. But, clearly, it will be one of the things that we would include in any risk assessment as we do recommence and consider these issues.

Diolch. Gary, do you want to add anything in response to Mick's question?

Very little to add, in fact; most of it's been covered. I think the point to remember is that, yes, whereas normally, for a 500-capacity gig under normal conditions, I'd be trying to advertise and encourage people to travel down from Carmarthen, Llanelli, Cardiff, Bridgend, if I'm doing a social-distanced gig and I'm looking at 50 people, as Guto said, then I'm not looking to encourage those people to travel from anywhere; I'm going to deal with the 50 people who are on my doorstep.

Yes. In terms of communications throughout the pandemic, do you think Welsh Government's communications have been adequate in terms of getting the key messages across as they affect all of you, or are there any particular points you would like to make in terms of how it might be improved?

11:25

I don't think it's necessarily been terrible. I'll give you an example from this week, though. The firebreak ends on Monday the ninth, and, whilst there have been a couple of announcements from the First Minister, we as yet, unless there's been an update this morning that I've missed, do not have the guidelines for how pubs and hospitality businesses are supposed to be operating when they open on Monday morning. And that's been true, somewhat, throughout the whole pandemic.

One of the problems that I believe there has been is that there has been very much room for interpretation in the guidance. So, for example, I haven't been allowed by my local licensing authority—I'm not coming down on them, I think they've been absolutely wonderful through this whole experience, they've been absolutely great, but I haven't been allowed by my local licensing authority to allow streaming of live bands or streaming of live DJs through my venue via the internet, whereas venues in Cardiff have, and venues in other locations around Wales have. That's due to interpretation of the guidance. My local licensing authority chose to interpret from the guidance that that wasn't allowed, whereas others have chosen to interpret it in a different way.

That's also been the same, and I would imagine someone from Cardiff will pick up on this with you, with the use of DJs in providing music. So, there have been different interpretations, and we are still waiting for—there have been delays in guidance that meant that there has been confusion and scrambling to put assets in place in time to operate safely.

Thank you. Anyone else want to come back to John on that—communication from the Government? Guto.

Buaswn i'n ategu beth mae Gary yn ei ddweud. Ar y cyfan, mae'r neges wedi bod yn gyson ac yn glir mewn cymhariaeth eithaf amlwg efo'r sefyllfa dros y ffin, ond lle mae'r manylion a dehongli'r rheoliadau, dyna lle mae yna rywfaint o wahaniaeth wedi bod. Roeddem ni mewn sefyllfa lle'r oeddem ni wedi trio rhoi DJs ymlaen pan wnaethon ni ailagor fel tafarn, achos roeddem ni'n deall bod cerddoriaeth wedi ei recordio yn cael ei ganiatáu, ond daeth yn amlwg wedyn bod yr awdurdod lleol sydd yn gwneud regulatory services yn diffinio'r DJ fel perfformiwr byw, ac felly doedd e ddim yn bosib i'w wneud. Gan ein bod ni wedi hysbysebu o flaen llaw ein bod ni'n bwriadu rhoi DJ ymlaen, roedd hynny'n golygu y gwnaethom ni gael cysylltiad gan regulatory services cyn eu bod nhw wedi dechrau gweithredu, ond mi oedd yna sawl lleoliad arall yng Nghaerdydd hefyd nad oedd yn ymwybodol o sut oedd y rheolau yn cael eu dehongli ac wedi bod yn rhoi DJs ymlaen. So, mi oedd e'n creu lefel o anghysondeb, jest oherwydd, dwi'n meddwl, y ffordd roedd y rheolau yn cael eu dehongli gan yr awdurdodau yn ein hardal ni ac yn wahanol mewn awdurdodau eraill.

A dyna rhan o'r sialens sydd yn mynd i fod, dwi'n meddwl: mae newidiadau yn gorfod dod yn eithaf rheolaidd ac mae drilio lawr arnyn nhw i wneud yn siŵr bod pob sefyllfa posib ar gyfer pob diwydiant posib yn mynd i fod yn job anodd, os nad amhosib, ac mae yn golygu i ryw raddau wedyn ein bod ni fel sector yn gorfod ceisio dehongli'r rheolau ein hunain, ac mae hynny wedi creu rhyw faint o drafferth yn y gorffennol.

I would endorse Gary's comments. Generally speaking, the message has been consistent and clear, in contrast perhaps with the situation over the border, but, when it comes to detail and interpretation of the regulations, that is where there has been some discrepancy. We were in a situation where we tried to put DJs on when we reopened as a bar, because we understood that recorded music was allowed, but then it became apparent that the local authority, the regulatory services, defined a DJ as a live performer, and therefore we couldn't do that. As we had previously advertised that we would have a DJ, it meant that we were contacted by regulatory services beforehand, but there were a number of other venues in Cardiff that also weren't aware of the interpretation of the regulations and had been putting DJs on. So, it created a level of inconsistency, just because of the way in which the guidance was interpreted by the authorities in our area, which was different in other areas. 

And that's part of the challenge, I think. These changes will have to be made quite regularly, and drilling down to the detail in order to ensure that all possible scenarios for all industries are covered is going to be a very difficult, if not impossible, task, and it will mean, to a certain extent, that we as a sector will have to try and interpret the rules ourselves and that has created some difficulty in the past.

Yes, I just want to echo what Guto said, basically, that the performing arts guidance needs to be updated more regularly and with less interpretation, because it really has fallen to local councils to read it and enforce it, and then you've got a venue in, let's just say Swansea, doing one thing, and a venue somewhere else sees them and thinks that that's fine, but their council have interpreted that differently and then they're getting improvement notices and fines and things. So, it really could do with being a little less vague and updated slightly more often to take into account everything that's going on.

11:30

Just one further question from me, Cadeirydd, and that's on consultation. To what extent do you feel that you've been properly consulted by Welsh Government as it has developed its policy and its guidance? I can see Sam shaking her head.

I think Sam is obviously very keen to come in on this particular point. Sam.

I don't feel we've been consulted at all as a trade, as music venues, as hospitality. I've been told by a friend of mine who works with it that it's basically Tiny Rebel and Brains that have been consulted, but they run pubs—they don't run nightclubs, they don't run music venues. And in terms of one of them, they've only been in existence in the hospitality industry for four years. So, I think there's been a serious lack of consultation with both the grass-roots music sector and the hospitality sector.

Dwi'n cytuno efo Sam. Y profiadau rydyn ni wedi eu cael ydy ein bod ni'n fwy o music venue na dim byd arall, ond un o'n ffynonellau ni ydy sinema, ac rydyn ni wedi cael llwyth o gefnogaeth gan Film Hub a Ffilm Cymru, ond gyda cherddoriaeth a'r sector yna, dydyn ni ddim wedi cael fawr ddim, a dweud y gwir. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bositif iawn bod Creative Wales wedi lansio beth wnaethon nhw ym mis Ionawr. Mae hynny'n bositif, a diolch byth bod hynny wedi digwydd ym mis Ionawr, achos maen nhw wedi dod mewn jest ar yr amser iawn i gefnogi, neu dwi'n meddwl y bydden ni wedi colli rhai venues yn barod. Ond dydy'r gefnogaeth ddim wedi bod yna hyd yma i gymharu â llefydd eraill. Dwi'n meddwl mewn lot o ffyrdd rydyn ni jest wedi cael ein gadael i'w ffigro fo i gyd allan ein hunain. 

I agree with Sam. Our experience has been that we are more of a music venue than we are anything else, but one of our streams is cinema, and we've had great support from Film Hub and Film Cymru, but in relation to music and that sector, we've had virtually no support. I do think it's very positive that Creative Wales has launched what they did in January. That was very positive, and thank goodness that that happened in January, because they've come in just at the right time to support us, or I think certain venues would have been lost already. But the support simply hasn't been there to date as compared with other sectors. In many ways, we've been left to figure it all out for ourselves.

Thank you. Guto or Gary, do you want to add to that? Guto.

I ategu i ryw raddau beth mae Sam a Dilwyn wedi bod yn dweud, mae yna gyfarfodydd rheolaidd, misol wedi bod yn digwydd efo cynrychiolaeth o'r sector efo Creative Wales, ac mae hwn wedi bod yn gyfle i gael rhywfaint o ddeialog, ond yn amlwg, un agwedd o'r Llywodraeth ydy Creative Wales, corff go newydd. Un o'r pethau rydyn ni'n codi yn aml efo nhw pan rydyn ni'n cael cyfarfodydd ydy pa bryd fydd yna road map yn cael ei greu ar gyfer y diwydiant. Mae yna un wedi cael ei greu ar gyfer y diwydiant teledu a ffilm ers y lockdown, ond hyd yma, does yna ddim un wedi cael ei greu ar gyfer y sector cerddoriaeth.

Rhan o'r ddadl ydy does yna ddim digon o ddata ar hyn o bryd i fedru gwneud hynna, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i fedru o leiaf rhoi rhyw fath o road map mewn lle heb ddyddiad penodol i gychwyn i roi syniad i'r sector o faint o gyfnod o test events sydd yn bwriadu cael eu gwneud mewn lleoedd dan do ac allanol cyn eu bod nhw'n barod i ystyried cael socially distanced gigs eto. Beth ydy'r cyfnod maen nhw'n meddwl rhoi ar gyfer test events? Oes ganddyn nhw syniad o beth yw'r strwythur y maen nhw'n rhagweld o lle rydyn ni nawr i lle rydyn ni'n gallu ailagor yn rhywbeth yn agos at normal? Beth ydy'r camau yn y strwythur yna? Beth maen nhw'n rhagweld ydy'r amser mae pob cam yn mynd i'w gymryd? Mae angen cael deialog efo'r sector ar gyfer hynny.

Dwi'n deall bod yna events taskforce yn trafod yn rheolaidd efo'r Llywodraeth, ond mae'r rheini'n cynrychioli gwyliau mawr a chanolfannau mawr fel Motorpoint. Does neb ar hyn o bryd o'r sector grass-roots ar y taskforce yna yn rhoi safbwynt ein diwydiant ni. I ryw raddau, ni yw'r diwydiant sy'n mynd i fod yn gallu ailagor a rhoi digwyddiadau byw arno gynharaf ac yn gyntaf, gan fod y ffenestr sydd ei angen arnon ni o ddechrau trefnu rhoi digwyddiadau ymlaen yn dipyn byrrach na llefydd fel Motorpoint neu wyliau mawr sydd angen chwech mis i 12 mis i roi rhaglen mewn lle. So, mae yna bethau yn digwydd, ond mae yna lot mwy a allai gael ei wneud i gael deialog efo'r sector fel ein bod ni'n rhoi ein harbenigedd ni allan yna i helpu yn y drafodaeth i roi rhyw fath o gynllun ynghyd.

I would echo what Sam and Dilwyn have said, to a certain extent. There have been monthly meetings with representatives of the sector and Creative Wales, and that's been an opportunity to have some dialogue, but that's just one part of Government and it's a new organisation. One of the things that we raise regularly with them when we have these meetings is when will there be a road map created for the industry. There has been one created for television and film since lockdown, but nothing has been drawn up in terms of a road map for the music sector.

Part of their argument is that there isn't sufficient data to be able to do that, but I do think that we could at least put some sort of road map in place without necessarily having the start date, to give the sector an idea of how many test events are expected to be carried out indoors and outdoors before we're ready to consider having socially distanced gigs again. So, what are they intending to do? Do they have any idea as to what structures they anticipate to take us from where we are now to where we can reopen with something approaching normal? What are the steps in that structure? What do they anticipate in terms of the timing for those steps? We need dialogue with the sector for that.

I do understand that there is an events taskforce having regular discussions with Government, but they represent the major festivals and the major venues such as Motorpoint. There is nobody, at the moment, from the grass-roots sector on that taskforce giving our perspective, and to a certain extent we are the industry that's going to be able to reopen with live events quickest, because the window for us to start to make arrangements for putting a gig on is a fair bit shorter than Motorpoint or the major festivals, who need six to 12 months to put a programme in place. So, there are things happening, but there is a lot more that could be done in order to have a dialogue with the sector so that we can feed our expertise in order to help with the discussion.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm just conscious of time, so if I can ask Members and witnesses to be as succinct as you can be at the same time as making sure your points are covered. Mick, were you trying to come in on a supplementary question there, or did I—? No, you were just fidgeting. David Melding. Can we unmute David? There we go. 

11:35

Thanks, Chair. We discussed the effectiveness of some of the support provided by the Welsh Government via the Creative Wales stream; I just wonder if the arts council stream has been better.

Would anyone like to comment on that? Dilwyn, then Sam and then Guto. Dilwyn.

Dwi'n meddwl, efo'r cyngor celfyddydau, roedden nhw ychydig bach yn araf deg ar y cychwyn, ac roedd Creative Wales yn cynnig ychydig o help reit ar y cychwyn. Ond dwi'n meddwl, efo Creative Wales, doeddwn i ddim yn ymwybodol o'r cyfarfodydd mae Guto wedi bod yn sôn amdanyn nhw heddiw, ac rydyn ni wedi bod mewn cyswllt â nhw drwy'r flwyddyn. Felly, doedden ni ddim wedi cael gwahoddiad i'r cyfarfodydd yna. Mae hynny'n un pwynt. Ond, hefyd, dwi'n meddwl, ar ryw bwynt, dwi'n meddwl eu bod nhw jest wedi cael gormod i'w wneud a bod yr adran yna ddim yn ddigon profiadol ar y funud i ddelio efo'r sefyllfa. Rydyn ni wedi cael rhywfaint o gyngor drwg ganddyn nhw, hefyd, lle roedden nhw wedi dweud, 'Dyma'r math o beth y gallwn ni ariannu', ac wedyn maen nhw wedi 'backtrack-io'. Felly, ie, dwi'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n adran sydd yn dal i ddatblygu, i fod yn onest, a dwi yn edrych ymlaen at gydweithio efo nhw yn y dyfodol, ond dwi ddim 100 y cant yn siŵr os ydyn nhw on it ar y funud. Dwi'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n clutching at straws ychydig bach, a bod yn onest. 

I think, with the arts council, they were slightly sluggish at the outset and Creative Wales did offer assistance at the very outset. But I think, with Creative Wales, I wasn't aware of those meetings that Guto has been mentioning today, and we've been in contact with them throughout the year. We weren't invited to any of those meetings. So that's one point. And I also think that, at some point, I do think that they were just overwhelmed and that department isn't sufficiently experienced at the minute to deal with the situation. We've had some poor advice from them, too, where they said, 'Well, that's the kind of thing that we can fund', and then they backtracked on that. So I think that they are a department that's still in the developmental phase, to be honest, and I do look forward to working with them in future, but I'm not 100 per cent convinced that they are on it at the moment. I think they're clutching at straws a little, if I'm honest. 

I think the Arts Council of Wales—one of the things that they are tied by is that they cannot fund the majority of grass-roots music venues because they have to fund not-for-profits and co-ops and things like that. I'm not sure if it's still the same, but I know that back at the beginning of the crisis, they couldn't fund you if you were a limited company or a sole trader. So in that way, the Arts Council of Wales—. Most grass-roots music venues are not not-for-profits or co-ops, although we do keep trying to encourage that with Music Venue Trust because it is a really great way of running things. So, the Arts Council of Wales couldn't fund a lot of our members as Music Venue Trust. And I think what Dilwyn said about Creative Wales is correct in that they were so new in January, and then were hit with this crisis. They got, I think it was, up to £25,000 per venue out in April, which was amazing, and I would say that 80 per cent of our members at Music Venue Trust would not have made it this far through the crisis without that money. But then to have been given the huge amount that they were given to distribute from the cultural fund, it's incredibly difficult for a department of six that literally have only known each other for six or seven months. So I think, yes, Arts Council of Wales were hampered by the setup of the structures that they can fund. 

Byddwn i'n ategu rhywfaint o beth mae Dilwyn a Sam wedi bod yn dweud. Jest i sôn rhywfaint am ein profiad ni yn Clwb, gan ein bod ni'n community interest company ac nid er elw, mi oedden ni wedi llwyddo i allu gwneud cais ar gyfer y cyngor celfyddydau a chael cefnogaeth hefyd gan Creative Wales yn gynnar iawn yn y broses. A diolch i'r taliadau y cawson ni gan y ddau gorff hyd at yr haf, gwnaeth hynny ein galluogi ni i barhau efo'n staff mor hir ag yr ydyn ni wedi gallu ei wneud. Mae e wedi bod yn sefyllfa anodd iawn. Mi oedd Creative Wales yn un o'r cyrff cyntaf trwy Brydain, dwi'n meddwl, i roi unrhyw arian ar gyfer y sector grass-roots, a hynny o fewn mis i'r pandemig ddechrau, a dim yn bell ar ôl hynny hefyd roedd nawdd ar gael gan y cyngor celfyddydau. Ond mae hi wedi bod yn gyfnod anodd iawn i Creative Wales. Maen nhw'n dîm dim bach ac maen nhw wedi cael lot fawr o waith i'w wneud mewn cyfnod byr, i feddwl eu bod nhw ond wedi eu ffurfio yn ôl ym mis Ionawr. Rydyn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am y gwaith maen nhw wedi ei wneud, ond efallai bod angen dosbarthu rhywfaint o'r cyfrifoldebau mwy ar draws y sector er mwyn rhoi cyfle iddyn nhw i anadlu a datblygu hefyd. 

I'd endorse some of what Dilwyn and Sam have said. Just to speak of our experience as Clwb, as we are a community interest company and not for profit, we had been able to make a bid for support from the arts council and to access support from Creative Wales at a very early stage. And thanks to those payments that we received up to the summer, that enabled us to continue with our staff as long as we've been able to. It's been a very difficult situation. Creative Wales was one of the first organisations throughout Britain to provide any funding for the grass-roots sector, and that was done within a month of the pandemic. And not long after that, there was also support available through the arts council. But it has been a very difficult period for Creative Wales. They are a small team and they've had a huge amount of work to do in a short period of time, given that they were only formed in January. We are very grateful for the work that they've done, but perhaps we need to distribute some of the responsibility across the sector in order to give them an opportunity to breathe, to develop and to bed in. 

Just to add to that, as a limited company, just from a different perspective, we haven't been eligible for any arts council help or funding; our route has been through Creative Wales. But, based on my conversations with people within the industry, and friends and peers and colleagues, I was really happy to find out that Creative Wales were going to be distributing that fund, and the application process was going to be through that fund, because my experience of the arts council thus far has been one that is incredibly complicated. It isn't necessarily set up for private limited companies, but is more set up for publicly owned bodies. 

11:40

I'll just ask one more question, if I may, Chair. I thought it was interesting that you all basically have said that you'd like to have controlled reopening. Now, the revenue that is available in these streams is basically to compensate organisations and individuals for enforced inactivity. Would there be a way of shifting to controlled activity with those funds, or would you just like to open up, in addition to the funds you're currently getting? The Musicians' Union has suggested a seat-matching scheme as one way of doing that. And how important is some controlled activity just for you to stay match fit? Because this is a remarkable period not to conduct your normal business, and it must have a huge impact on skills levels and well-being, and just those morale factors. So, how important is this activity for you for the longer term?

David, ar y pwynt diwethaf rwyt ti wedi'i wneud, dwi ddim yn meddwl ein bod ni'n cysidro ni fel venue a sut rydyn ni'n cadw'n brysur ac yn cadw'n match fit. Dwi'n meddwl, i ni, rydyn ni'n gwybod beth ydy gwerth y celfyddydau o ran llesiant i bobl, a dwi'n meddwl mai dyna ydy'r pwynt pwysig. Rydyn ni fel venue—a dwi'n siŵr bod venues eraill yn meddwl yr un fath—dydyn ni ddim yn meddwl am ein hunain, rydyn ni'n meddwl am ein cynulleidfa, a rydyn ni'n meddwl am anghenion ein cymuned. Felly, dyna ydy'r peth mwyaf pwysig. Felly, dydyn ni ddim yn gallu cynnal gweithgaredd a gwario pres sydd gyda ni ddim ar gynnal gweithgaredd. Ond rydyn ni jest eisiau gallu cynnal gweithgaredd heb rhoi ein hunain mewn peryg o orfod cau, achos rydyn ni'n gwybod bod ein cymunedau rili angen y celfyddydau, a dwi'n meddwl bod yr amser yma yn profi gwerth y celfyddydau i bobl ar amser anghenus i bawb. 

David, on that final point you made, I don't think that we are thinking about us as a venue and how we remain match fit. For us, we know what the value of the arts is in terms of well-being, and I think that's the important point. We as a venue—and I'm sure that the other venues would agree—we don't think of ourselves; we think of our audiences, and we think of the needs of our community. So, that's the most important thing. So, we can't stage activity and spend money that we don't have, but we just want to have that activity back without putting us at risk of closure, because we know that our communities really need the arts, and I think this time and this period has proven the value of the arts for the people at a time that's been very difficult. 

I completely agree. It's not about whether we can survive financially without the gigs; it's about whether people's mental health can survive without creative outlets for the artists, and being able to access creative arts for the customers, because it's a huge, huge thing. And I think the pandemic has created huge mental health issues with everyone in the nation, as we know, and being able to help a little bit, while being financially supported by the Government, and not worry about 'Is this gig going to break even; am I going to lose money I don't have?'—I think that's an amazing position to be in, and if we could get to that, that would make me feel a whole lot better about being able to serve my community. The Music Venue Trust have actually done a survey, and music venues under 200 to 300 capacity don't make money on tickets; we lose money on tickets. We just about survive by making money on the bar. So, getting back to socially distanced gigs isn't in any way financial; it's about supporting our communities. 

Gary or Guto, do you—? Guto, I can see you want to come in. 

Rwy'n ategu beth mae Sam a Dilwyn yn ei ddweud fanna. Fel y gwnes i nodi'n gynt, dŷn ni fel lleoliadau mewn sefyllfa i wneud cais am nawdd o'r gronfa ddiwylliannol yma, ond mae'r artistiaid dŷn ni'n rhoi mlaen, mae e wedi bod yn anodd iawn iddyn nhw gael access i unrhyw arian. Mae'r freelance fund wedi bod yn oversubscribed bob tro mae e wedi agor. Mae'r bobl sain, a'r freelancers eraill buasem ni'n cyflogi ar gyfer digwyddiadau, dŷn nhw ddim yn yr un sefyllfa â ni. So, buasai'r arian yma yn ein galluogi ni i roi digwyddiadau ymlaen heb y risg tebygol o'r ffaith dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i wneud arian ohonyn nhw achos bydd y gynulleidfa yn mynd i fod yn llai, ond mi fyddem ni hefyd yn gallu rhoi rhywfaint o arian yn ôl i mewn i'r diwydiant yn gyffredinol a chefnogi unigolion creadigol eraill trwy'r digwyddiadau yma.

I'd agree with Sam and Dilwyn there. As I noted earlier, we as venues are in a position to seek funding from the cultural fund, but for the artists, it's been very difficult for them to access any funding. The freelance fund has been oversubscribed every time it's opened. And sound engineers, and other freelancers that we would employ for events, aren't in the same situation as we are. So, this funding would enable us to stage events without the usual risk that we're not going to make money because of the smaller audiences, but we could also pump some money back into the industry more generally and support creative individuals through staging these events. 

11:45

Yes, I would agree with everything that's been said so far. I think, in terms of staying match-fit as well, it's really important to stay engaged with your younger and local community. There's a year's worth of young audience now and young bands and young artists that haven't developed in the same way that those from the previous 50 years have, and they haven't been given the opportunity to get out there and to come and see a gig and to play a gig and to engage with people with the same interests. So, I think that's really important.

There's also a physical consideration for the buildings and the equipment. I know it sounds crazy, but if you don't use a building, and if you don't use the equipment, it breaks. So, in terms of staying match-fit, there's a consideration there because if we turn all the equipment on one day and it all just goes 'bang', that's hundreds of thousands of pounds.

I have to admit, I find that quite scary. Thank you, all. Nothing further from you, David? If I can turn to Mick Antoniw, then, please. Mick.

Yes, it's just a couple of questions because you've dealt with some of the financial support or otherwise in respect of particularly individuals and so on. Now, the core schemes, of course, are the UK Government schemes: the job support scheme, change in self-employment income support scheme et cetera. And then Welsh Government has developed additional funding schemes to try and fill in those particular gaps. Most of you have indicated the number of people that you actually employ. To what extent are those support schemes, which are still in place, of benefit? What needs to change? What more do you think Welsh Government specifically could do? And I do think an emphasis particularly on those people who are employed and the self-employed—the freelancers, for example—perhaps you could give us a few examples, I think, of the situation some of them are actually in financially—how they're surviving. So, really, I think that would be a helpful contribution to this part of the evidence session.

Guto, roeddwn i'n gweld eich bod chi eisiau dod i mewn.

Guto, I saw that you wanted to respond.

O ran sefyllfa'r staff sy'n cael eu cyflogi gan y clwb, cyn y cyhoeddiad am y gronfa ddiwylliannol, mi oedden ni yng nghanol redundancy consultation, achos er bod y furlough scheme wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol iawn ac yn gefnogol iawn i ni, nid cyflogau ydy'r unig gost o redeg lleoliad. Mi oedden ni'n wynebu sefyllfa lle buasai'r lleoliad mewn peryg o gau os na fuasem ni'n gostwng ein cyfrifoldebau o ran staffio. Dwi wedi llwyddo i ohirio hynna nawr tan ein bod yn cael penderfyniad o'r gronfa ddiwylliannol, ond os nad ydym yn llwyddiannus yn fanna, mi fydd rhaid i fi ailedrych arno fo, achos mae angen sicrhau bod y busnes yn bodoli mor hir â'i fod yn gallu, yn y gobaith ein bod ni'n dod trwy'r crisis yma, a dyw'r cronfeydd o'r UK ar eu pennau eu hunain ddim wedi bod yn ddigonol achos jest ar gyfer y staffio maen nhw. Dŷn ni yn ddibynnol iawn ar y canlyniad ar y gronfa ddiwylliannol.

O ran y sefyllfa freelance, mae wedi bod yn anodd iawn, dwi'n meddwl, ar gyfer pobl yn y sector yna yng Nghaerdydd yn benodol. Mae yna ganran fawr iawn o weithwyr freelance yng Nghaerdydd a phob tro roedd y gronfa freelance yn cael ei agor, mi oedd yr un yng Nghaerdydd yn rhedeg allan mewn amser byr iawn. So, mae yna bendant alw am fwy o gefnogaeth ar gyfer y sector yna. Dŷn ni'n cyflogi hyd at 15 o bobl sain yma ar sail lawrydd. Mae nifer ohonyn nhw erbyn hyn wedi gorfod mynd i weithio yn warws Tesco neu lefydd eraill er mwyn cael arian ac incwm—rhywbeth yn agos at beth roedden nhw'n gallu ei gael cyn y pandemig. So, mae hi wedi bod yn sefyllfa anodd iawn ar eu cyfer nhw.

In terms of staff employed by the club, before the announcement of the cultural fund, we were in the midst of a redundancy consultation, because although the furlough scheme had been very useful, salaries aren't the only cost of running a venue. We were facing a situation where the venue would be at risk of closure unless we could reduce our staffing responsibilities. I've managed to defer that now until we get a decision on the cultural fund, but if we're not successful there, then I'll have to review that, because we do need to ensure that the business survives for as long as possible, in the hope that we come through this crisis. And the UK funds alone haven't been sufficient, because they're simply focused on staffing. We are very reliant on the decision on the cultural fund.

In terms of the freelance situation, it's been very difficult, I think, for people in that sector in Cardiff particularly. There is a large percentage of freelance workers in Cardiff and every time the freelance fund was opened, the one in Cardiff would run out in very short order. So, there is certainly a demand for further support for that sector. We employ up to 15 freelance sound engineers and many of them have had to go to work in the Tesco warehouse or elsewhere just in order to make ends meet and get an income anywhere near what they could achieve pre-pandemic. So, it's been a very difficult situation for them. 

Sam, I can see you're agreeing with that. Do you want to come in? Can we unmute Sam, please?

11:50

Sorry, I think the translation was still on and when you spoke in English, I didn't actually catch any of it. I think it—

Sorry, I was just asking if you—. That does happen sometimes, a bit of a delay. I was just asking if you wanted to come in on Mick's question.

I think, in terms of freelancers, there needs to be either more freelance support—and I understand that there isn't a huge money pit in Welsh Government that's full of money that they can just hand out that doesn't exist—so I think getting back to socially distanced gigs and, potentially, in the spring outdoor gigs, where, obviously, the risk of transmission is far less outdoors, so once it's warm enough, let's maybe look at putting stages in every city centre and every town centre and we'll do gigs outside. That's something I'm really passionate about and trying to make happen in Newport at the moment, speaking about more licensing, making plans for next spring. And I think, the more we can get back to activity, the more that the industry and the cultural recovery fund that has been given to venues can be used to support freelancers and artists as well. Also, BBC Breaking News has just announced that they have extended the furlough scheme until March, so that's great news for venues—everybody's quickly checking their phones now. That's great news for venues in terms of pay-as-you-earn staff, but it still does not help the freelancers and the creatives. So, a return to events is vital to keep those guys afloat.

I think the questions have really been answered. I think you've answered them adequately, thank you. 

That's great. So, finally, a question from Carwyn. Carwyn Jones.

Thank you, Chair. Just really to ask the witnesses about what the pandemic has revealed to them about how the sector should change in the future and what kind of support from Government might help to facilitate that change.