Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

30/01/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed
David Melding
John Griffiths
Rhianon Passmore

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Alun Llwyd PYST
PYST
Betsan Moses Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru
National Eisteddfod of Wales
Branwen Williams Artist
Artist
Dilwyn Llwyd Neuadd Ogwen
Neuadd Ogwen
Marged Gwenllian Artist
Artist
Neal Thompson FOCUS Wales
FOCUS Wales
Osian Williams Artist
Artist
Sioned Edwards Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru
National Eisteddfod of Wales

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Angharad Roche Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Clerc
Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31.

The meeting began at 09:31.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma ac eitem 1 ar yr agenda: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Hoffwn i eich croesawu chi i gyd i'r cyfarfod yr wythnos hon. Dwi wedi cael ymddiheuriadau gan Carwyn Jones AC, Mick Antoniw, a hefyd Helen Mary Jones, sy'n ymuno gyda ni o'r newydd. Hoffwn roi ar y record ein diolch i Delyth Jewell, sydd wedi bod ar y pwyllgor hyd yn hyn, a diolch iddi am ei chyfraniad hi. Diolch hefyd i Rhianon Passmore sydd yma heddiw yn cymryd lle—dwi ddim yn siŵr pa un o'ch cyfoedion, ond yn cymryd lle un o'r Aelodau Cynulliad Llafur yma heddiw. A oes gan unrhyw un rhywbeth i'w ddatgan? Na. Grêt. Diolch. 

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning and item 1 on the agenda: introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I would like to welcome all of you to this week's meeting. I have received apologies from Carwyn Jones AM, Mick Antoniw, and also Helen Mary Jones, who is joining us on the committee. I'd like to put on record our thanks to Delyth Jewell, who has been on the committee to date, and thank her for her contribution. Thank you also to Rhianon Passmore, who is here as a substitute—I'm not sure which Member you're substituting for, but you are substituting for one of the Labour Assembly Members today. Does anybody have any declarations of interest? No. Thank you very much. 

2. Ymchwiliad i gerddoriaeth fyw
2. Inquiry into live music

Eitem 2: ymchwiliad i gerddoriaeth fyw yng Nghymru. Rydym ni'n croesawu: Betsan Moses, prif weithredwr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru; Sioned Edwards, dirprwy gyfarwyddwr artistig Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru; Alun Llwyd, prif weithredwr PYST; a hefyd Neal Thompson, partner a chyd-sylfaenydd FOCUS Cymru. Croeso i chi i gyd atom heddiw. Rydym ni'n gwerthfawrogi'r amser rydych chi'n ei roi i ni, yn sicr i'r ymchwiliad penodol yma, ac i ymchwiliadau eraill rydym ni wedi eu gwneud hefyd. 

Byddwn ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, os ydy hynny'n iawn gyda chi. Byddaf i'n cychwyn. A allwch chi roi rhyw fath o fras olwg cryno o sut rydych chi'n gweld y sîn gerddoriaeth fyw yma yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd? A ydy hi'n wahanol i ardaloedd eraill o Brydain? A ydy hi'n wahanol o fewn Cymru? Sut ydych chi'n gweld y sîn ar hyn o bryd, os yw hynny'n iawn i chi agor gyda? Does dim rhaid i chi i gyd ateb pob cwestiwn.

We'll move on to item 2, which is the inquiry into live music in Wales. We welcome: Betsan Moses, chief executive of the National Eisteddfod; Sioned Edwards, who is the deputy artistic director of the National Eisteddfod; Alun Llwyd, who is the chief executive of PYST; and also Neal Thompson, partner and co-founder of FOCUS Wales. Welcome to you all this morning. We appreciate the time that you have taken to spend with us, to contribute to this inquiry, but also to other inquiries that we've held as well. 

We'll have themed questions, if that's okay. I'll start with mine. Could you give us some kind of concise overview of where you see the status of the live music sector in Wales at the moment? Is it different to other parts of the UK? Is it different in different parts of Wales? How do you perceive the scene at the moment, if you can open with that question? You don't all have to answer every question.

Mae yna gymariaethau tebyg, yn amlwg, achos mae'r dirywiad yng ngwerthiant recordiau a chynnydd ffrydio wedi dod â llai o incwm, ac mae hynny wedi bod yn broblem ryngwladol yn ogystal â phroblem Gymreig. Yn yr ystyr o broblemau penodol Cymreig, fy sylw mwyaf i ar hyn o bryd ydy: er bod yna dwf wedi bod mewn niferoedd ffrydio a mynediad at farchnad fyd-eang drwy Spotify ac yn y blaen, mae yna grebachu wedi bod yn nhermau gigs byw yn ddaearyddol. Mae gigs byw wedi crebachu i ardaloedd penodol y gogledd orllewin, Caernarfon a Chaerdydd. Maen nhw wedi diflannu bron yn llwyr o lefydd fel Clwyd, Powys, rhannau o Wynedd a'r gorllewin. Mae yna broblemau, felly, sy'n golygu nid yn unig problem o ddiffyg adeiladau ac yn y blaen ond diffyg hyrwyddwyr. Yn amlwg, os ydy rhywun yn tynnu allan y cyfle i chwarae'n fyw—hwnna fel arfer ydy'r cam cyntaf yn nhermau artistiaid ifanc i ddatblygu crefft. Felly, hwnna fyddai fy nghonsyrn mwyaf i ar hyn o bryd.  

Well, there are similar comparisons, of course, because the decline in the sale of records and the development of streaming has led to less income, and that's been an international problem as well as a Welsh problem. In terms of specifically Welsh problems, the main thing I would say at the moment is: although there's been a growth in streaming and access to a global market through Spotify and so on, there has been some shrinkage in terms of live gigs geographically. They have declined virtually into the areas of the north west, Caernarfon and also Cardiff. They've disappeared from Clwyd, Powys, parts of Gwynedd and west Wales. There are problems; it's not just a lack of venues, but a lack of promoters. If someone actually removes that opportunity to play live—that is usually the first step for young artists in developing their craft. So, that would be my greatest concern at the moment. 

Pan dŷch chi'n dweud bod pethau wedi gwaethygu o ran llefydd, a oes yna ryw fath o ymchwil neu ddata gennych chi i brofi hynny, neu ydy hi'n fwy eich bod chi'n siarad â phobl oedd yn arfer hyrwyddo ac oedd yn arfer rhoi gigs ymlaen?

When you say that things have deteriorated in terms of venues, is there research or data that you have to demonstrate that, or is it just about your experiences when you speak to people who used to promote and hold gigs?

Mae o'n fwy yn nhermau pan fo rhywun yn mynd ati i gydlynu taith i artist ac yn edrych ar le i fynd ag artist, mae'r opsiynau sydd gan rywun wedi lleihau yn ddramatig iawn. O'r blaen, pan roeddwn i'n tyfu i fyny yn Wrecsam, er enghraifft, roedd yna gigs yn Wrecsam yn gyson, roedd yna gigs yn yr Wyddgrug yn gyson, roedd yna gigs yn Rhuthun ac yng Nghorwen, ac yn y blaen. Mae hynny i gyd wedi diflannu. Dydy hynny ddim ynghlwm efo llefydd yn cau o angenrheidrwydd. Mae llefydd yn cau am bob math o resymau economaidd, yn aml ddim yn gysylltiedig gyda cherddoriaeth. Ond mae hynny ynghlwm efo diffyg hyder, diffyg sgiliau, diffyg profiad, diffyg cyfleon i hyrwyddwyr ifanc allu camu i fyny i roi gigs ymlaen yn eu cymunedau nhw.  

It's more that, when one actually tries to co-ordinate a tour for an artist and looks at where one can take an artist, the options available have reduced dramatically. In the past, when I was growing up in Wrexham, for example, there were regular gigs in Wrexham, in Mold, in Ruthin and in Corwen. All of that's disappeared now. That isn't related to the closure of venues necessarily. Venues close for all sorts of economic reasons, often not linked to music. But that is related to a lack of confidence, a lack of skills, a lack of experience, a lack of opportunities for young promoters to step up and to put gigs on in their own communities. 

09:35

Dwi'n gweld hynny. Pan o'n i'n ifanc, mi o'n i'n creu gigiau. Mi oedd yna gelloedd oedd yn creu ar hyd llawr gwlad. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, mi oedd yna botensial yng Nghaerfyrddin, ond hefyd roedd yna draddodiad o fynd i gigiau hwy ar hyd Cymru. Ond nawr dydy'r rheini ddim yn bodoli. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, o edrych ar lle mae'r ddarpariaeth a'r cyfleoedd i rywun gyfranogi yn y sîn, mae'n crebachu. Ac wrth gwrs, mae lleoliadau megis y Parrot ac yn y blaen yn diflannu, ac mae hwnna ynddo'i hun yn golygu, wrth i rywun ddatblygu crefft, mae'r cyfleoedd lleol yn diflannu. Felly, mae yna ddyletswydd o ran edrych ar beth yw'r ddarpariaeth a beth yw'n gwaith ni i'w wneud o ran ein rôl ni gyda Maes B a'r brand ac yn y blaen. Ond mae'r cyfleoedd yn lawer llai. 

I see that. When I was younger, I put on gigs. There were groups that put on gigs on the ground. And so, there was potential in Carmarthen, but there was also a tradition of going to gigs across Wales. But now those don't exist. So, in looking at where the provision is and where the opportunities are to participate in the scene, it is shrinking. And also venues such as the Parrot and so on are disappearing, and that in itself means, as someone develops their craft, those local opportunities are lost. So, there's a duty to look at what the provision is and what our work is in terms of our role with Maes B and the brand and so on. But the opportunities are far fewer. 

Byddwn i'n cytuno. Fe ges i fy magu yng ngorllewin Cymru a dechreuais i drefnu trwy drefnu bysys i gigs, ac mae'r arfer yna wedi mynd. Dyw'r gigs ddim yn bodoli, ac mae hynny'n dod trwyddo. Dŷn ni'n ddibynnol ar y bandiau i ddod trwyddo o ran pwy dŷn ni'n bwcio ar gyfer llwyfan y maes a Maes B, ac wedyn hwnna sy'n denu cynulleidfa i'n digwyddiadau ni. Ond dŷn ni'n ddibynnol ar hynny. Dyw'r sîn ddim yn datblygu i'r graddau y gallai achos bod yna ddim digon o gigs yn yr ardaloedd mae Alun a Betsan wedi sôn amdanyn nhw.  

I would agree. I was brought up in the west of Wales and I started to organise through organising buses for gigs, and that practice has disappeared. The gigs don't exist, and that's coming through. We're reliant on the bands coming through for who we book for llwyfan y maes and Maes B, and that's what attracts audiences to our events. But we're reliant on that. The scene isn't developing to the extent that it could because there aren't enough gigs in the areas that Alun and Betsan have mentioned. 

Ydych chi'n credu hefyd eich bod chi'n rhoi digon o gyfleoedd i genres gwahanol? Rydym ni wedi clywed bach o feirniadaeth o'r Eisteddfod a Maes B, bod teip o fand yn chwarae yna, lle gallai fod yna genres mwy amrywiol, efallai. 

Do you think you're providing enough opportunities for different genres? We've heard some criticism of the Eisteddfod and Maes B, that there is a specific type of band that plays there, whereas there could be more varied genres, perhaps. 

Dwi'n credu, o edrych ar Faes B, beth sy'n rhaid i ni edrych arno yw ei fod e'n benodol ar gyfer 16 i 25. Hefyd, o ran y profiad, rydych chi'n sôn am 5,000 o bobl yn edrych, felly fyddai pob genre ddim yn gweithio o fewn hynny. Felly, mae'n ddibwrpas i ni ddweud, 'Wnawn ni agor yr ystod gerddoriaeth ar gyfer y gerddoriaeth fyw', oherwydd, er enghraifft, mae yna gigiau sy'n fwy acwstig sydd ddim yn mynd i weithio o fewn Maes B ei hun. Ond dyna pam mae Maes B yn cydweithio hefyd gyda'r hyn sy'n digwydd ar y maes. Mae gennym ni dŷ gwerin, mae gennym ni lwyfan y maes, mae gennym ni y llannerch. Mae yna lwyfannau gwahanol ar gyfer y gerddoriaeth wahanol. Dwi'n credu beth sy'n bwysig yw bod rhaid i ni edrych ar ôl yr artist; mae'n rhaid i ni roi'r profiad gorau i'r artist a'r gynulleidfa. Dwi ddim yn credu y gallwch chi ddweud, 'Mae yna lwyfan fan hyn sy'n eistedd 5,000; rhowch bob ffurf arno fe.'

Ac yn yr un modd, o ran Maes B, mae'n unigryw oherwydd dyma'r cyfle cyntaf i rywun brofi cerddoriaeth fyw a'r profiad yna ynddo'i hyn. Dwi'n credu, o ran ein rôl ni, mae'r datblygiad yna—. Mae nifer o bobl, yn enwedig yn y sîn roc Gymraeg, mae yna grwpiau lle byddai efallai eu profiad nhw ar lawr gwlad o ran y sain yn eithaf elfennol, o ran y golau yn eithaf elfennol. Felly, mae hwn yn un o'r pinnacles lle mae gennych chi 5,000, mae gennych chi'r goleuadau a phob dim. Mae'n brofiad. Felly, mi fuaswn i'n dweud bod yna rôl gan yr Eisteddfod i edrych ar yr ystod o genres, ond mae'n rhaid i ni hefyd fod yn deg i'r artist ac o ran y gynulleidfa, ein bod ni'n cysylltu nhw.  

I think, in looking at Maes B, it's specifically for that 16 to 25 audience. So, in terms of the experience, you're talking about 5,000 people, so not every genre would work in that context. So, it's pointless for us to say, 'We'll open up the whole range of genres for that live music experience', because, for example, there are more acoustic gigs that are not going to work within Maes B itself. That's why Maes B also works with what happens on the Eisteddfod maes. We have tŷ gwerin, llwyfan y maes, we have the llannerch. There are different platforms and stages for these different genres. I think what's important is that we look after the artist; we need to give the artist and the audience the best experience possible. I don't think you can say, 'We have a stage here with a 5,000 capacity; put all genres on it.'

Likewise, in terms of Maes B, it's unique because this is a first opportunity for someone to experience live music and that whole experience. I think, in terms of our role, that development—. Many people, particularly in the Welsh language rock scene, there are groups where their experience on the ground in terms of sound quality, in terms of lighting, would be quite basic. So, this is the pinnacle where you do have an audience of 5,000 people, you have a proper light rig. It's a proper experience. So, I would say that the Eisteddfod has a role to look at the range of genres, but we also have to be fair to the artist and the audience, that we do connect them. 

Sori, dwi'n mynd i siarad Saesneg, os yw hynny'n ocê. Mae bach yn haws i fi. 

I'll speak in English, if that's okay. It's easier for me. 

I think the issues are quite holistic, really. There's no zooming in on existing things and picking on them. I'm not suggesting that's what we're doing there, but the Eisteddfod does what it does and it does it very well. What we are lacking, and the opportunity I see at the moment is to develop real infrastructure. Because it's not for the existing things to try and do everything and try and cover all the bases. To criticise the Eisteddfod for not being—it does what it does and it does it well. There's room for other things to be developed in Wales to cover these other angles of diversity and things like that that we're talking about, which is obviously very important.

So, I think the crossroads that we're at here is that we've got an opportunity to begin to develop, from the grass-roots up, a real music industry for Wales. An in-house, in-this-economy thing that we can be very proud of and build up and cover all of these different angles that we're talking about. That's the overarching thing that I've come to this committee with. I don't want to take over and push my ideas too much but—the kind of organisations that we have represented here, like PYST, the things that we're trying to do with FOCUS Wales, and the things that the Eisteddfod are trying to do—they form more of a patchwork of things that we need to knit together a bit better, I think.  

A gaf i ddod nôl hefyd yn ogystal? Mi oedd gennym ni, rhyw bum mlynedd yn ôl, drafodaeth o ran lle mae rôl y ferch yn y sîn roc. Ac mae hynny'n digwydd drwy Brydain. Mae pobl yn dweud ar hyn o bryd, o ran y prif artistiaid, mae'n anodd iawn dod o hyd i rai lle mae gennych chi yr ochr o ferched yn arwain. Dyna pam gwnaethon ni greu 'Merched yn Neud (Gwallt ei Gilydd) Miwsig', oherwydd mi ro'n ni'n gweld bod hynny, a bod hynny o ran hyder a phob dim. Ond byddai ni'n gosod Lleuwen ym Maes B ddim yn cynorthwyo, mi fyddai'n dangos, 'Gwrandewch, mae nhw wedi ymateb', ond dim dyna'r gofod pwrpasol.

Dwi'n credu, fel mae pob un ohonom ni fan hyn yn dweud, mae'n rhaid i ni edrych ar beth yw'r adnoddau sydd gyda ni a sut gallwn ni ddatblygu, ond mae angen strategaeth glir o fynd i'r afael â'r ystod o ffurfiau ar gelfyddyd, a bod yn glir o ran beth sy'n gweithio, beth sydd ar gael, ac hefyd edrych yn genedlaethol. Achos, ar hyn o bryd, rŷch chi wedi cael tystiolaeth o ran yr hyn mae'r prosiect Forté yn dweud, ond mae hwnnw ond yn digwydd mewn pump sir. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, beth sy'n digwydd hefyd, os dŷch chi'n edrych ar leoliadau a chanolfannau, o edrych ar Gymru wledig, dyw arian ychwanegol ddim yn mynd i gynorthwyo gyda hynny. 

Felly, mae'n rhaid edrych ar Gymru ac edrych ar beth yw'r anghenion gwahanol, oherwydd mae pob un ardal ag anghenion gwahanol, a hefyd mae yna draddodiad gwahanol, ac mae'n rhaid parchu hynny, a hefyd esblygu'r ochr gynhenid yna.

If I can return on that point? Around five years ago, there was discussion on the role of women in the rock scene. And that's happening across the UK. People are saying currently, in terms of the top artists, it's very difficult to identify ones where women are leading. That's why we drew up 'Merched yn Neud (Gwallt ei Gilydd) Miwsig', because we saw that, and that there was a problem in terms of confidence. But us putting Lleuwen on in Maes B wouldn't help, it would say 'Well, there's been a response', but that isn't the proper space.

As all of us here are saying, we have to look at the resources available to us and how we can develop, but we need a clear strategy in terms of addressing the range of art forms involved, and to be clear in terms of what works, what's available, and also to look at it at a national level. Because at the moment, you've had evidence about what the Forté project are saying, but that only happens in five local authority areas. So, in reality, what also happens, if you look at venues and particular centres, in looking at rural Wales, additional funding isn't going to help in that regard. 

So, we have to look at the whole of Wales and look at the various needs, because all areas have different needs and requirements, and there are different traditions there too, and that has to be respected, and also develop that indigenous, inherent side. 

09:40

Grêt, diolch. Fe ddown ni ymlaen at y stwff cludo a'r prosiect Forté, os yw'n iawn. Mae'r cwestiwn olaf gen i yn glou, cyn i ni symud ymlaen, ynglŷn â'r sîn gerddoriaeth Gymraeg yn benodol. Dŷn ni wedi clywed efallai bod yna silos rhwng y sîn Saesneg ei hiaith a Chymraeg ei hiaith, ac mae gen i ddiddordeb mewn ceisio gweld sut y gallwn ni uno'r rheini, a sicrhau bod pobl ddim jest yn tyfu lan yn gwybod am fandiau Cymry Cymraeg, sydd yn grêt, wrth gwrs, ond eu bod nhw'n adnabod bandiau gwahanol. Sut ydych chi'n meddwl y gallai hynny ddigwydd?

Great, thanks. We'll come on to transport and the Forté project, if that's okay. A quick last question, before we move on, from me with regard to the Welsh language music scene. We've heard that there are silos between the English-medium scene and the Welsh-medium scene, and I'm interested in trying to see how we can merge those, and ensure that people don't just grow up knowing about Welsh-medium bands, which is great, of course, but that they know about other bands as well. How do you think that that can happen?

Mae hwnna'n bwynt pwysig iawn, dwi'n meddwl. Dwi'n meddwl bod pwynt wedi dod, er enghraifft, lle mae cynulleidfa Maes B, er enghraifft, yn gynulleidfa fawr iawn, ond yn gynulleidfa gymharol benodol o'r gymuned Gymraeg. Dwi'n meddwl, i gerddoriaeth Gymraeg a Chymreig ehangu, mae'n rhaid mynd tu hwnt i'r gynulleidfa yna.

Dwi yn meddwl wedyn bod yna ddadl gryf iawn, iawn, mewn ardaloedd llai Cymreig o Gymru, dros roi mwy o gigs dwyieithog ymlaen. Eto, i edrych ar enghreifftiau o ardaloedd fel Wrecsam neu'r Cymoedd, mae yna ddadl gryf dros mwy o gigs dwyieithog mewn llefydd fel yna. So, dwi'n meddwl bod rhaid edrych ar y ddwy gymuned ieithyddol yna a sut mae modd croesi drosodd. 

A beth sydd yn ddifyr hefyd ydy bod llwyddiant pethau fel Alffa ar Spotify ac yn y blaen yn dangos bod yna normaleiddio o'r Gymraeg wedi digwydd i raddau, a bod modd i'r Gymraeg gymryd ei lle ar blatfformau tebyg i hynny heb fod yna ystyriaethau ieithyddol yn digwydd. A bron wedyn mae'n rhaid i ni gario ymlaen efo'r ysbryd yna a meddwl, 'Beth am osod y Gymraeg a cherddoriaeth Gymraeg mewn cyd-destunau lle nad ydyn nhw wedi arfer bod?' Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n bwysig i ehangu cynulleidfa. 

That's a hugely important point, I think. I think that we've reached a point where the Maes B audience is a very large audience, but is a specific audience drawn from Welsh-speaking communities. I think, for the Welsh language and Welsh music to expand, we need to go beyond that audience.

I think there's a strong argument, in less Welsh-speaking areas of Wales, for having bilingual gigs. Again, if we look at areas such as Wrexham or the Valleys, there is a strong argument for having bilingual gigs in those sorts of areas. I think we need to look at those two linguistic communities and look for crossover. 

I think the success of things like Alffa on Spotfiy does show that there's been a normalisation of the Welsh language to a great extent, and that the Welsh language can take its place on platforms such as that without linguistic considerations being an issue. And we need to carry on with that spirit, and say 'Well, why not put Welsh and Welsh music in contexts where they've not been in the past?' I think that's important in terms of expanding the audience. 

That's very important for us as well. That's basically a founding principle of FOCUS Wales, which is the music industry showcase festival that I run in north Wales that represents the whole country. From the beginning, the whole point of that was to present Welsh and English language music in parity, with no segregation, and that the music industry people specifically that we bring to the event would watch all of the Welsh bands and take them all in the same way. 

Mae hwnna'n bwysig hefyd. Dwi'n ffan o beth mae Neal yn ei wneud efo FOCUS. Mae hyd yn oed ap FOCUS, pan dŷch chi'n mynd i'r ŵyl, yn gwbl ddwyieithog. Mae pethau bach fel yna yn normaleiddio'r iaith, ac mae bandiau'n dod o'r tu allan i fewn i Gymru, er enghraifft, ac maen nhw'n gweld eu bod nhw mewn gwlad sydd â dwy iaith fyw. Felly, mae pethau bach fel yna hefyd yn bwysig i ni, dwi'n meddwl.

That's important as well. I'm a fan of what Neal is doing with FOCUS. There's a FOCUS app, when you go to the festival, and that's bilingual. Small things like that normalise the language. When bands come into Wales, they see that they're in a nation that has two living languages. So, those little things are really important for us as well. 

Dwi'n meddwl hefyd ei fod e'n bwysig peidio â rhoi'r sîn roc Gymraeg mewn genre sîn roc Gymraeg. Achos, yn y sîn roc Gymraeg, mae yna fandiau sy'n gwneud hip hop, mae yna fandiau sy'n gwneud stwff mwy gwerinol, ac yn y blaen. Dyw'r sîn roc Gymraeg ddim yn genre. So, mae achlysuron mewn rhai gwyliau lle maen nhw'n rhoi llwyfan Cymraeg, so dyw hwnna ddim yn helpu materion chwaith, drwy roi pawb o'r sîn roc Gymraeg ar yr un llwyfan, yn hytrach na'u bod nhw'n treiddio drwy'r line-up i gyd. 

I think it's also important not to put the Welsh language scene in a particular genre. Because, in that scene, you have bands performing hip hop, more folk-based music, and so on. The Welsh scene isn't a genre in and of itself. So, we've had certain festivals where they have had a Welsh stage, and that doesn't help matters either, putting everyone who is a Welsh performer on the same stage, rather than permeating the whole line-up. 

Dwi'n credu, o ran ein hochr ni, mi fyddwn ni mewn tair blynedd yn mynd i Rhondda Cynon Taf, ac un o'r sgyrsiau roedden ni'n cael, wythnos diwethaf, fel mae'n digwydd, oedd sut allwn ni gyflwyno'r sîn yno. Felly, mi fyddwn ni'n edrych, wrth arwain i fyny yn y prosiectau cymunedol, ar greu gigiau dwyieithog, oherwydd mae'n ddibwrpas i ni ddweud, 'Gwnawn ni wneud hwn yn uniaith Gymraeg; dyma fe.' Mae angen i ni wneud y cymathu yna.

I think, in terms of our side of things, in three years we'll be going to Rhondda Cynon Taf, and one of the discussions that we were having, last week, as it happens, was about how we can introduce the scene there. So, we'll be looking, in the lead-up, in the community projects, to create those bilingual gigs, because it's pointless for us to say, 'We'll do this monolingually in Welsh.' We do need that assimilation.

Do'n i ddim yn gwybod bod yr Eisteddfod yn gallu gwneud hynny. 

I didn't know the Eisteddfod could do that. 

Mae'r ŵyl ei hun trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond wrth i ni arwain i fyny mae'n bwysig bod pawb yn rhan. Dyna beth sy'n bwysig. Mae'r Eisteddfod yn cael ei ddefnyddio i edrych yn gymunedol ar beth sy'n digwydd, i gyflwyno'r iaith a'r diwylliant, ond mae'n digwydd mewn ystod o ieithoedd ar lawr gwlad wrth arwain at yr ŵyl. 

Ond hefyd, cyn bwysiced â bod hyn yn normaleiddio iaith yn arwain at yr Eisteddfod yw'r ffaith bod yna ŵyl drwy'r Gymraeg ddim yn rhwystr ieithyddol. Oherwydd un o'r pethau ddigwyddodd yn y Bae oedd bod yna gymunedau cynhenid o Gaerdydd yn dod i'r Bae, gweld llwyfan y maes, ac yn dweud, pe baem ni'n gallu cael rhywbeth tebyg, lle rŷn ni'n gweld ein diwylliant ni—ac roeddwn i'n teimlo ei fod e'n agor y drws iddo fe. Ac felly, dwi'n ei weld e'n eironig pan mae rhywun yn sôn am ydy iaith yn rhwystr mewn cerddoriaeth. Mae plant ar hyn o bryd, a phobl ifanc, yn mynd ar y systemau ffrydio, ac mae'n aml-ieithog. Felly, er enghraifft, dwi'n gwrando ar grwpiau o Corea—dwi ddim yn siarad yr iaith, ond eto i gyd dyw e ddim yn rhwystr, oherwydd y ffurf a'r gelfyddyd yw e; y gerddoriaeth yw e. Felly mae'n rhaid i ni beidio ag edrych ar iaith—efallai ein bod ni weithiau yn bod yn eithaf hen ffasiwn yn ein cysyniad ni: 'Os nad wyt ti'n ei siarad, wnei di ddim o'i werthfawrogi'. Mae hwnna wedi hen ddiflannu, ac mae angen i ni fod, o ran ein strategaeth ni, o ran Cymru hefyd fel rŷn ni'n edrych ar ein hunain, yn ddwyieithog, yn aml-ieithog ac yn hyderus yn camu ymlaen fanna.

The festival itself is through the medium of Welsh, but in the lead-up it's important that everybody is part of that. That's what's important. The Eisteddfod is used to look, on a community basis, at what's happening and to present the language and the culture, but that happens in a range of languages on the ground.  

But, as important as this being about normalising the language in the lead-up to the Eisteddfod is the fact that a festival through the medium of Welsh isn't a linguistic barrier. Because one of the things that happened in the Bay was that communities from Cardiff were coming to the Bay, seeing llwyfan y maes, and they said, if we could have something like this, where we could see our culture—and we felt that this opened the door to it. So I think it's ironic when someone says that language is a barrier in music. Well, children at the moment, and young people are going on the streaming platforms, and it's multilingual. I listen to groups from Korea—I don't speak Korean, but it's not a barrier, because it's the genre; it's the music. So we have to not look at language as a barrier. Sometimes, we're quite old fashioned in our concept—we think, if you don't speak it, you won't appreciate it. That's long ago disappeared, and we need to be, in terms of our strategy, and about Wales, we need to think about the way that we look at ourselves as being multilingual, and that we're confident in that.

09:45

And just to add to that as well, in my experience, especially if the current policy is to encourage new Welsh speakers and people to join the culture of Wales, and to embrace the language, we've been very good at selling Welsh culture to ourselves, to the already-Welsh-speaking population. Whereas, it seems like a no-brainer to me that we should use English to sell Welsh to people; it's fairly—

Gaf i ddweud un peth? Byddwn i'n taflu yn ôl at y Llywodraeth—mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn eofn wrth i ni greu strategaeth brand Cymru. Ar hyn o bryd, dŷn ni'n edrych fel petai dim ond ar y pethau sy'n Brydeinig y byddai pobl yn gallu eu deall yng Nghymru, yn hytrach na dweud, 'Dyma beth sy'n unigryw am Gymru—gwerthwch e a pherchnogwch e'. Dwi'n teimlo weithiau bod yr Eisteddfod wedi mynd ar goll fel rhywbeth ar gyfer y Cymry Cymraeg. Os rŷn ni o fewn Cymru yn dweud hynny, gwae ni. Oherwydd y gwir amdani yw, beth brofodd Caerdydd, beth brofodd y diwrnod am ddim yn Llanrwst, yw bod pobl yn dyheu am gael y profiad yna. Oherwydd os nad ŷch chi'n cyflwyno'r Gymraeg, a hyfywedd y Gymraeg, yna, mi fyddwch chi wastad yn rhoi'r Gymraeg mewn bocs yn y cornel.

May I say one thing? I would throw it back at the Government, and say that we have to be confident in creating the brand Wales. At the moment, we are looking at the things that are British that people could understand about Wales, rather than saying, 'This is what's unique about Wales—sell it, take ownership of it'. I feel, on occasion, that the Eisteddfod is lost as something simply for Welsh speakers. If we in Wales think that, then woe betide us. Because what Cardiff proved, and what the free entry in Llanrwst proved, is that people do really want that experience. And if you don't present the Welsh language, and its viability, then you will always place the Welsh language in a box in the corner.

Ocê. Diolch. Mae'n rhaid i ni symud ymlaen, sori. John Griffiths.

Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry, we have to move on. John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I'd like to ask some questions about support and advice. And, generally, is there enough support and advice for the live music industry in Wales, do you think?

No. I don't think there's any, is there, at the moment? There's no formal sort of advice available to anybody, as far as I know, beyond—

Nac oes. Fel cwmni PYST, dŷn ni'n rhoi rhywfaint o gyngor a help i artistiaid a labeli yn bennaf—y math yna o gymorth. Ond yn nhermau cymorth ffurfiol, does yna ddim o'r ffasiwn gymorth yn bodoli. Ac mae lot o hwnna'n deillio o'r ffaith bod yr arbenigedd hefyd yn gyfyng o fewn Cymru ac ymhlith y Cymry Cymraeg. Wedyn, mae'n rhaid i ni edrych yn fwy pellgyrhaeddol a meddwl, yn nhermau strategaeth ehangach, beth dŷn ni eisiau ei gyflawni dros yr 20 mlynedd nesaf, pa fath o sgiliau dŷn ni eisiau eu datblygu, pa fath o unigolion dŷn ni eisiau eu datblygu, a fydd yn gallu cynnig y math o fentora i'r cenedlaethau i ddod? A dwi'n meddwl bod hynna'n bwysig—bod yn rhaid i ni edrych ymlaen llaw, rŵan, a meddwl am yr 20 mlynedd nesaf, yn hytrach na meddwl am y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Mae gennym ni genhedlaeth o bobl ifanc, rŵan, sydd yn gwrando ar gerddoriaeth, sydd yn byw y gerddoriaeth, ond does ganddyn nhw ddim o'r mynediad yna i ddatblygu sgiliau nac i ddatblygu cyfleon. A nhw, i raddau, ddylai fod y bobl fydd yn rhoi'r cyngor yna yn y dyfodol.

No, there isn't. In PYST, we give some advice and assistance to artists and labels mainly—that kind of support. But in terms of formal support, there is no such support available. And a lot of that stems from the fact that there is expertise that is limited within Wales, and among Welsh-speaking Welsh people. So, we need to look in a more far-reaching way, and think about where the wider strategy is, what do we want to achieve over the next 20 years, what kinds of skills do we want to develop, what kinds of individuals do we want to nurture, so that we can mentor the following generations? And I think it's important that we need to look ahead and think about the next 20 years, rather than the next two years. We have a generation of young people now who are listening to music, who are living through the medium of music, but they don't have access to develop their skills or opportunities in music. And they should be the ones who will be providing that support in future.

So, again, backing that up, I fully agree. At the moment, any kind of—. Certainly myself, and I'm sure Alun does, we probably end up fielding requests for advice like that, because we're the natural people to defer to sometimes, when nobody knows. It's like, 'Oh, I don't know—maybe ask these guys', and it's not our job to do that, but it's part of the reason we exist, that we want to do it, so it gets covered a lot of the times, I think.

But you're making a good point, and, again, my overall point that I'll continue to bang on about is that, rather than focusing on problems, we're actually at a turning point, where we've got the opportunity to create something quite useful here, where there are plenty of people, like ourselves, who are all operating yn unigol—on our own. Whereas, we do actually make up quite a viable music industry altogether, if you like, if you add it all together. So, a way of knitting all these together and creating the beginnings of a real infrastructure is the opportunity we have.

Do you see any particular ways of doing that, any particular vehicles for achieving that?

Yes. What's happening at the moment, I think, is quite positive, where we've got a good dynamic between public money, public funding, and people who can execute work, who are existing in the real industry, who are engaging with the rest of the music industry, in the rest of the UK and the wider world. So, for me, that breaks down into two things. Funding and support is there to seed people who know what they're doing to get on with the jobs that they're doing, and do it well, and develop it properly. So, like, develop companies that are going to operate in the music industry, develop individuals and develop skills, and it's those people who are going to engage and actually work and do business. And then, maybe there's also a need for some kind of overarching body or something that could exist to answer questions and signpost and field and manage entry-level enquiries about things like that, like what we were just talking about there really. So, kind of what Welsh Music Foundation used to do, but—in my opinion anyway, yes.

09:50

Ie, dwi'n credu does yna ddim isadeiledd, ond yn hytrach, mae yna bocedi o ddigwydd. Beth sydd ei angen, wedyn, yw i sicrhau bod yna gymorth ar gael yn ymarferol—yr asiantaeth yma y mae pawb yn dweud y mae ei angen—ond hefyd wedyn ein bod ni'n defnyddio'r arbenigedd. Oherwydd, yn yr un modd, mae'r sector—oherwydd nad oes yna arweiniad, mi ydyn ni'n cydweithio; mae yna sgyrsiau. Mi fyddwn ni'n cael trafodaethau aml gyda PYST o ran fel rŷm ni'n hyrwyddo. Rŷm ni'n gweithio'n agos gyda Clwb a phob dim. Mae hynny oherwydd ei fod yn gwneud synnwyr, ond hefyd o ran rheidrwydd oherwydd bod yna gymaint o bobl sydd heb gymorth ar gyfer datblygu, felly, mae angen yr isadeiledd, boed yn asiantaeth neu beth bynnag.

I don't think the infrastructure is there, but there are pockets of activity. What we need to ensure is that there is support available on a practical level—this agency that everyone says is needed—but also that we use that expertise. Because the sector—because there isn't that leadership, we do collaborate; we have conversations. So, we do have regular discussions with PYST as to how we promote. We work closely with Clwb. And that's because that makes sense but it's a necessity as well, because there are so many people who don't have support to develop and therefore, we need that infrastructure, be it an agency or anything else.

A hefyd, dwi'n meddwl, mae'n bwysig, achos mae lot o bobl yn sôn am y corff yma, ond dwi'n meddwl, cyn unrhyw gorff, mae eisiau edrych ar strategaeth ac mae eisiau i'r strategaeth yna ddod i gasgliadau yn nhermau beth sydd ei angen. A beth sydd ei angen ydy edrych ar y dirwedd yna sydd yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd a gweld lle mae'r bylchau. Achos, does yna ddim pwrpas creu strategaeth er mwyn creu drych o'r diwydiant cerddoriaeth ryngwladol yn Lloegr, achos dydy o ddim yr un peth. So, mae'n rhaid inni edrych ar beth dŷn ni ei angen yng Nghymru a beth ydy'r anghenion yng Nghymru, ac edrych tuag at bobl ifanc a thrafod â phobl ifanc a meddwl, 'Wel, beth sydd ei angen i ddatblygu’r sgiliau a chyfleon yma?' Ac mae'n mynd i fod yn gwbl wahanol i Loegr, ond mae'n mynd i fod yn rhywbeth cynhenid Cymreig sydd ei angen a dyna'r man cychwyn.

Ac mae'r cwestiwn am sgiliau yn gwestiwn anodd achos dwi ddim yn siŵr pa fath o sgiliau a chyngor sydd eu hangen hyd yn oed. So, mae'r strategaeth yn mynd i arwain at ddarganfod pa fath o sgiliau bydd eu hangen hefyd.

Also, people do mention this body, but before we have this body, we need to have a strategy and that strategy needs to come to conclusions in terms of what is needed. And what's needed is to look at the landscape as it currently stands and see where the gaps are. Because there's no point creating a strategy to create a mirror image of the international music scene in England, because it's not the same. So, we need to decide what we want in Wales and what the requirements are and we need to speak to young people and see what we need to do to develop these skills and opportunities. And it is going to be different to England, but it's going to be something that's purely Welsh and that's what's needed, and that's the starting point.

And the question about skills is difficult, because I don't know what kind of skills and advice are needed. So, the strategy is going to lead to finding out what kind of skills will be needed.

Mae yna deimlad o roi'r cart cyn y ceffyl yn digwydd, os nad ŷch chi'n gwybod ble rŷch chi am ei gyrraedd, sut ŷch chi'n penderfynu beth yw'r adeiladedd i'w wireddu.

There is a feeling of putting the cart before the horse occasionally. Unless you know what your end point is, how do you decide what the infrastructure appropriate to deliver that is?

Okay, thanks for that. I take your point that, obviously, we need to assess Wales's own distinctive needs, but nonetheless, Arts Council England have a capital fund for grassroots venues. Are you familiar with that and do you think that's something that we might—

Yes, it was only announced yesterday, wasn't it? Creative Wales have just announced £120,000 slush fund for grassroots venues. So, that's up to £5,000—

Ond unwaith eto, dwi'n meddwl bod y gronfa yna'n syniad grêt—mae'n syniad da iawn—ond mae'n syniad sydd ond yn mynd i weithio i raddau, fel mae’n sefyll ar hyn o bryd, i ganolfannau trefol megis Caerdydd ac Abertawe a Chasnewydd. Dydy'r canolfannau yna ddim yn bodoli ar lawr gwlad, a dyna pam dwi wastad yn dadlau y dylai'r buddsoddiad, yn nhermau cyngor ac yn nhermau arian, fynd i mewn i feithrin hyrwyddwyr newydd. Achos o gael hyrwyddwyr newydd, mae'r hyrwyddwyr yn mynd i ddarganfod canolfannau newydd yn eu cymunedau ac yna wedyn, mae'r gronfa yna wedyn yn cicio i mewn. So, os oes gennym ni hyrwyddwyr ar lawr gwlad, mae'r hyrwyddwyr yna yn mynd i greu'r canolfannau yna. Dyna'r ffordd dwi'n meddwl y dylem ni edrych arno, yn hytrach na'r ffordd arall rownd.

But once again, I think that fund is a great idea—it's a very good idea—but it's an idea that'll only work, as it stands at the moment, for urban centres such as Cardiff, Swansea and Newport. Those centres don't exist in rural areas, and that's why I always argue that the investment, in terms of advice and funding, should be in developing new promoters, because in having promoters, then those promoters will find new venues in their own communities and then that fund can kick in. So, if we have promoters on the ground, then they're going to create the venues, and I think that's how we should look at it, rather than the other way around.

I fi, yr hyn sy'n rhwystredig yw, mae gennym ni'r dalent anhygoel yma, ond os oes gen ti fand a does dim gen ti hyrwyddwr a phob dim, sy'n mynd law yn llaw, yna, beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd? Mae'n mynd i aros yn yr unfan. Felly, mae angen inni edrych arno fe fel diwydiant yn hytrach nac edrych arno fe fel y sîn gerddorol. Mae'n rhaid edrych arno fel diwydiant neu fydd e byth yn esblygu.

For me, what's frustrating is that we have this incredible talent, but if you have a band and you don't have the promoter, then what's going to happen? It's going to stand still, isn't it? So, we need to look at it as an industry rather than looking at it as the music scene. We need to think about it as an industry or it'll never evolve.

Dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn werth nodi hefyd, pan rŷch chi'n trefnu gig mewn un o'r canolfannau grassroots fath o beth, mae yna oleuadau gyda nhw, mae yna system sain gyda nhw, mae gyda nhw bobl diogelwch ac yn y blaen, ond pan rŷch chi'n trefnu gig mewn ardal wledig—fe wnaethon ni drefnu un yn Llanrwst y llynedd, er enghraifft, ac roedd yn rhaid inni ddod â chwmni PA i mewn a oedd yn dod o Sir Fôn, roedd yn rhaid inni ddod â—. So, roedd y costau ychwanegol yna, roedden ni'n gorfod eu talu, yn gynyddol fwy o'i gymharu â petai ni wedi gwneud gig yn rhywle, dywedwch, fel Clwb Ifor Bach, lle mae'r sylfaen i gyd yna, a wedyn, mae hwnna'n cael, yn amlwg, impact ar faint o arian rŷch chi'n ei wneud ar ddiwedd y dydd hefyd.

I think it's also worth noting that when you organise a gig in one of these grassroots venues, then they have lighting, they have a sound system, they have security staff, but when you organise a gig in a rural area—we organised one in Llanrwst last year for an example, and we had to bring in a PA company from Anglesey and we had to bring all sorts of other things in. So, those additional costs had to be paid and they were far more than if we'd actually staged a gig in somewhere like Clwb Ifor Bach, where all of that infrastructure is in place. And, of course, that has an impact on the profit you make at the end of the day.

Yes. Would you have a particular view then on whether it's more important to fund the construction of new venues rather than support and improve existing ones?

You should support the existing ones, but also, it's a double investment, isn't it? If you invest in the people though, that's going to—. You need both for the whole thing to work.

Yes, okay. If we move on to the Arts Council of Wales, obviously, they're a very significant player in terms of arts and culture in Wales, including the music scene and live music. Are they doing a reasonable job, do you think? Is there anything obvious they can do to improve the support that they provide? 

09:55

O'm hochr i, mae'n rhaid i fi nodi, roeddwn i'n arfer gweithio iddyn nhw. Mewn gwirionedd, o edrych ar eu rôl a'u cenadwri, o ddiflaniad y Welsh Music Foundation bu'n rhaid iddyn nhw edrych ar 'Beth allwn ni ei wneud i gynorthwyo?'. Dyw e ddim yn berffaith, ond wedi dweud hynny, mae hyn a hyn o arian. Wrth i chi ddosrannu fe a phob dim, heb fod yna arian pellach ar gyfer dweud 'Edrychwch ar y diwydiant cerddorol', mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw, efallai, ceisio rhannu'r gacen yn hwy.

Nawr, o'n rhan ni, y broblem, gan nad ydym ni'n gwmni portffolio, yw ein bod ni'n cael arian loteri, sy'n golygu bod e'n gorfod bod yn ddatblygiad. Felly, er enghraifft, mi wnaethon ni sefydlu Tŷ Gwerin ar yr arian loteri yna, ond, o ran y rheolau loteri, unwaith mae e wedi'i ddatblygu gallwch chi ddim parhau i'w gael e'n arian craidd. Felly, mae wedyn yn golygu bod y pwysau yn ôl ar y corff ar gyfer ariannu. Felly, wrth i ni esblygu fel corff, o gael yr ystod a datblygu rhaglen, heb ariannu craidd mae'n mynd yn anoddach fyth i wireddu gŵyl. 

Rydym ni'n cael 11 y cant o'r pwrs cyhoeddus. Felly, mae'r wŷl yn costio £5.6 miliwn. Beth sy'n gyfatebol i ni fyddai'r cwmnïau portffolio. Maen nhw'n dechrau ar beth—49 neu 50 y cant? Mae'r un uchaf yn ennill 91 y cant o'r pwrs cyhoeddus. Dyw e ddim yn gyfartal. Felly, rŷn ni yma—. Ni yw'r prosiect cymunedol mwyaf o'i fath yng Nghymru, ac eto i gyd, 11 y cant rŷn ni'n ei gael o'r pwrs cyhoeddus. Ac o ddatblygu'r ochr sîn roc ar Faes B, wrth i ni ddatblygu hwn, wrth i ni hefyd edrych ar Tŷ Gwerin a phob dim, does yna ddim grant y gallwn ni fynd amdano unwaith mae wedi cael ei sefydlu. Ac felly, mae hwnna'n rhwystr anferthol a bydd e'n rhwystr cyffelyb wedyn ar gyfer gwyliau eraill. A hefyd, dyna un o'r pethau roedd Clwb yn ei nodi: fel ŷm ni'n gallu cael arian ar gyfer datblygu'r strategaeth graidd? 

From my point of view, I have to put on record, that I used to work for them. Truth be told, looking at their role and their mission, from the disappearance of the Welsh Music Foundation, they had to look at what they could do to support. It's not perfect, but having said that, there is only so much money. After you've allocated it, without having additional funding, for example, to say 'Look at the music industry', they have to try to spread that funding more widely.

So, the problem is, because we're not a portfolio company, that we receive lottery funding, which means that it has to be a development. So, for example, we established Tŷ Gwerin with that lottery funding, but, in terms of the lottery rules, once it's been developed you can't continue to receive it as core funding. So, it then means that the pressure is back on the body for funding. So, as we evolve as a body, from having that range and developing the programme, without that core funding, it becomes even more difficult to put on a festival. 

We receive 11 per cent from the public purse. So, the festival costs £5.6 million. What would correspond to us is the portfolio companies. They start on what—49 or 50 per cent? The highest one earns 91 per cent from the public purse. It's not equal. So, we are here—. We are the largest community project of its kind in Wales, and yet, we receive 11 per cent from the public purse. And in developing the rock music scene on Maes B, as we develop that, as we also developed Tŷ Gwerin and so on, there's no grant that we can go to now once those things have been established. So, that's a major barrier and it will be a similar barrier for other festivals. And also, that's one of the things that Clwb raised: how can we get funding for developing the core strategy.  

A dyna'r ateb syml efo cyngor y celfyddydau i fi. Dwi ddim yn siŵr sut mae modd penderfynu ar ble mae'r gwariant yna'n mynd heb fod yna strategaeth. Os nad ydyn ni'n gwybod beth ydy'r priorities yn nhermau'r gwariant a'r sgiliau a'r datblygiad, dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn sut mae modd penderfynu ar y gwariant. Ac wedyn, mae'r gwariant yn mynd i fod yn wariant ad hoc ar brosiectau unigol, o bosib sydd ddim yn cyfrannu at y twf cyffredinol. O bosib eu bod nhw, ond os ydy'r gwariant yn digwydd o fewn strategaeth gyffredinol i ddatblygiad cerddoriaeth Gymraeg a chynulleidfa Gymraeg neu Gymreig, yna, yn sicr wedyn, mae modd gwneud y gwariant yna'n lawer mwy effeithiol.  

And that's the simple answer on the arts council. I'm not sure how you can decide where that expenditure is made if you don't have a strategy in place. If we don't know what the priorities are in terms of expenditure, skills and development, I'm not sure how you can make expenditure decisions. And then, the expenditure will be ad hoc on individual projects, which perhaps don't contribute to general growth. They may well do, of course, but if the expenditure happens within a wider strategy for the development of Welsh music and a Welsh audience, then certainly that expenditure can be far more effective. 

Ac mae angen bod yn eglur pwy sy'n ariannu beth. Felly, beth ydy rôl Cymru Greadigol? Beth ydy rôl cyngor y celfyddydau a phob dim? Oherwydd, ar hyn o bryd, mae pawb fel petasen nhw'n potsian ond mae angen i ni gael eglurder. 

And we need to be clear about who funds what. So, what is the role of Creative Wales? What is the role of the arts council? Because, at the moment, everyone seems to be meddling and we need to have that clarity. 

I agree completely, and in my opinion, there does need to be some kind of strategy that covers all of these things. For me to answer the question on the arts council, the way they would fit into a strategy, and hopefully the strategy would include or be based on the principle that public money is there to support projects that work within this framework, that work within that strategy—. I think that's the most sensible and clear way of pushing on, and also not just solving the immediate problems, but also working towards building a real infrastructure and a real industry in this country.  

Okay. Just one final question from me on Creative Wales. Were you involved at all in the work that went into Creative Wales? 

Wel, mae'n rhaid i fi ddatgan yn fanna, Creative Wales sydd wedi bod yn ariannu PYST ers y cychwyn. So, mi rydym ni wedi bod yn lwcus, yn yr ystyr fod Creative Wales wedi gweld pwysigrwydd beth oedd PYST yn ei gynnig yn nhermau creu system ddosbarthu a hyrwyddo am y tro cyntaf i gerddoriaeth Gymraeg a Chymreig. So, mi rydym ni wedi mwynhau cefnogaeth yn fanna. Ond, buaswn i hefyd yn clymu i mewn y cwestiwn am Creative Wales a chyngor y celfyddydau drwy ddweud, yn amlwg, arian y Llywodraeth ydy'r ddau. So, bron bod angen anghofio pwy sy'n ariannu beth ac edrych ar beth rydym ei angen, beth ydy'r strategaeth ac wedyn penderfynu ydy o'n cael ei ariannu o ba le penodol. Ond arian y Llywodraeth—pres cyhoeddus—ydy'r ddau beth.

Wedyn, yn nhermau Creative Wales, mi fydd o'n ddiddorol iawn gweld sut mae hwnna'n mynd i siapio yn nhermau gwariant, ond eto, heb fod yn boring, heb y strategaeth yna, dydw i ddim cweit yn siŵr sut maen nhw'n mynd i allu penderfynu ar eu gwariant nhw yn gyfatebol i beth mae cyngor y celfyddydau yn ei wneud. 

Well, I should declare an interest there, Creative Wales has been funding PYST from the outset. So, we've been fortunate, in the sense that Creative Wales had seen the importance of what PYST offered in terms of creating a distribution and promotion system for Welsh and Welsh language music. So, we've enjoyed support there. But I would also tie in the question on Creative Wales with the one on the arts council by saying, clearly, it's all Government funding. So, you almost need to forget about who's funding what and look at what we need, what the strategy is and then decide is it funded from a particular pot. But it's all Government money—public money—essentially anyway. 

So, in terms of Creative Wales, it will be very interesting to see how that will develop in terms of expenditure, but again, without being boring, without that strategy, I'm not really sure how they're going to be able to make expenditure decisions in comparison with what the arts council do. 

Ie, a hefyd mae angen bod yna strategaeth yn edrych o ddatblygiad yr artist, felly, y gwaith ar lawr gwlad, i wedyn edrych yn fasnachol. Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna ddyhead, 'Beth allwn ni wneud yn fasnachol?' Ond, i fod yn fasnachol, mae'n rhaid bod yna lwybr. Felly, fel ŷch chi'n ariannu'r llwybr yna? Does yna ddim eglurder ar hynny ar hyn o bryd. 

Yes, and also there needs to be a strategy in looking at the development of the artist, so the work on the ground, and then looking on a commercial level. At the moment, there's an ambition to see what we can do commercially. But to be commercially viable, there has to be a path followed. So, how do you fund that path? There's no clarity on that at the moment. 

10:00

Mae gen i un cwestiwn clou, achos mae e wedi dod yn sgil, efallai, rhai o'r datganiadau gyda beth chi'n ei ddweud o ran yr arian lleoliadau gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae'r Music Venue Trust yn dweud beth fyddai'n gallu digwydd byddai perchnogaeth gyhoeddus o rai lleoliadau. Maen nhw wedi gwneud hyn gyda'r adeilad drws nesaf i Clwb Ifor Bach oherwydd y problemau yn sgil yr adeilad penodol hwnnw. Ydych chi'n credu y byddai rhywbeth fel hyn, yn rhan o strategaeth fwy, yn helpu, yn enwedig—dwi'n gwybod ei fod e'n Cardiff-centric—ond yn enwedig gyda'r problemau gyda gwerthu lleoliadau neu newid cwmpawd beth mae lleoliad yn ei wneud?

I have one quick question, because it has emerged from some of the statements with regard to what you said about the funding for venues from the Welsh Government. The Music Venue Trust has said that what could be done is that there could be public ownership of some venues. They've done this with the building next door to Clwb Ifor Bach because of the problems with regard to that specific building. Do you believe that something like that, as part of a wider strategy, could be of assistance? I know that that's very Cardiff-centric, but especially with issues with selling venues or changing their terms of use, what could be done? 

Dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddadl gref iawn o blaid hynny. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddadl gref yn nhermau bod modd edrych ar ydy o'n gwneud sens i gael cyfres o ganolfannau ar draws Cymru ar y pwrs cyhoeddus, achos mae'r canolfannau hynny wedyn yn gallu cynnig lle i bobl gael eu mentora, i sgiliau gael eu datblygu ac yn y blaen, ac i droi mewn i ganolfannau celfyddydol mewn gwahanol gymunedau.

Dwi'n credu bod yn rhaid i ni dderbyn bod venues cerddorol yn cau am bob math o resymau. Yn bennaf, dydyn nhw byth yn venues cerddorol—maen nhw'n fariau neu maen nhw'n ddibynnol ar fwyd. Am ba bynnag ffactorau, maen nhw'n cau, so dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddadl gref, fel rhan o'r strategaeth, ein bod ni'n edrych ar, 'Reit, mi ydyn ni angen canolfan yn Rhyl—mi ydyn ni angen canolfan yn lle bynnag.' Wedyn, oes yna arian cyhoeddus yn cael ei ddefnyddio wedyn er mwyn rhoi gigs ymlaen, ond hefyd cyfle i bobl ddatblygu sgiliau ac yn y blaen o fewn y gymuned yna?

I think there's a strong argument in favour of that. I think there's a strong argument for looking at whether it makes sense to have a series of venues across Wales funded publicly, because those venues could then offer space for mentoring and for skills development, and then they could become arts centres in their communities.

I think we have to accept that music venues close for all sorts of reasons, mainly because they're not music venues—they're bars, or they're dependent on food or drink, and they close for many reasons. So, there's a strong argument, as part of a strategy, that we look at, 'Well, we need a centre in Rhyl—we need a centre somewhere else.' Is there public money that can be used in order to stage gigs, but also to give people an opportunity to develop skills within that community too?

Music venues: you're quite right that they close for all kinds of different reasons, but I think they're still being treated very much like rateable high-street businesses, and they're not; you know, they're culturally significant places. As you've quite rightly pointed out, they're the seeding ground for a whole music economy. They employ lots of different people who work in the music industry as well, and, very often, like I did, they're where people start out and where they get an opportunity to programme music, learn how to be the sound engineer, run the light show or whatever—all of that kind of stuff. So, the importance outweighs the outside-looking-in view that we might have. It's definitely important to consider investing in and looking after them from more of a cultural perspective, I think, definitely.

So, it's something you would think that we could look into.

Well, yes. Again, without being too isolating—

They're suggesting something like a National Trust for venues—that's what they're suggesting. I was just curious to get on the record what you thought about that.

Yes, for me, I think it's important that music, and the idea of the cultural significance and the economic importance of music, especially to somewhere like Wales, where we could, potentially, be a leader here and set a standard, is, very much like the music strategy for Cardiff has pointed out—countrywide we should be weaving music into the infrastructure of everything and every decision that's made, because it's an incredibly important part of everything that happens here. It's one of the strongest things that we can export, I think—do you know what I mean? It's a cultural asset that's not unique to Wales, but it's a very important thing when we're speaking about Wales specifically, and an international presence and all this kind of thing. So, to consider that, and to consider the importance of these kinds of grass-roots things, and even further back than that, to consider the importance of music in schools, access to rehearsal space and places for young bands to record and stuff—

Yes, sorry, I'm jumping the gun.

Okay. Rhianon Passmore, I think you have some of these questions.

Thank you, Chair. That's actually music to my ears as well, in regard to the synergy that there is between you. In that regard, very briefly, at the moment, is there any national platform or forum where you all get to meet together, bearing in mind the issue around who is taking the music industry forward at this moment?

Nac oes.

No, there isn't.

Mae yna gyfarfodydd ad hoc yn digwydd.

There are ad hoc meetings.

So, as part of a potential national strategy—obviously, the creative strategy was launched yesterday—do you feel that that would be important, in terms of how we move this forward? At the moment, the feeling I get is that there is no real grasp of who is leading with the music industry at grass-roots level.

Dwi'n meddwl bod angen dod â phobl sydd yn arwain yn weithgar yn y maes yma at ei gilydd i lunio strategaeth, oes. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n hanfodol bwysig fod y strategaeth yna yn cael ei harwain gan arbenigwyr, neu bobl sy'n gweithio o ddydd i ddydd yn y maes yna. Achos dwi'n meddwl, yn y gorffennol, mae yna adroddiadau wedi cael eu hysgrifennu gan bobl allanol, neu gan bobl sydd ddim yn involved efo'r diwydiant cerddoriaeth o ddydd i ddydd, so dwi'n meddwl bod angen defnyddio'r arbenigedd yna, achos, am y tro cyntaf mewn degawdau, dwi'n meddwl, mae gennym ni o fewn Cymru bellach gwmnïau, strwythurau, gwyliau a hyrwyddwyr. Mae gennym ni elfennau sydd yn gryf ac yn gyfoethog yn nhermau eu profiadau a'u sgiliau, ac mae hynny'n sail gref iawn, iawn, iawn i allu creu strategaeth.

I think that we need to bring in people who are leading and active in the area to create a strategy. And I think it's vital that that strategy is led by experts, or people who work on a daily basis in that sector. Because in the past there have been reports written by people who are external to the sector, or people who aren't involved on a daily basis with the music industry, so I think we need to use the expertise that exists, because for the first time in decades, I think, we have in Wales companies, structures, festivals and promoters. We do have elements that are very robust and rich in terms of their experience and skills, and that's a very strong basis to create a strategy.

10:05

Thank you, and you've been very clear in that regard. You've touched upon a number of very important issues, and I'm just going to try and keep mine to the themes that are in front of me. In regard to the fact that we no longer seem to have the variety of different venues—and you've touched upon the fact that there are many different reasons for that, including, in my view, the fact community centres have been unable to sustain themselves, and the first point of contact, as you've already outlined, would often be in a community arts centre or with perhaps local authority input in terms of arts development—so, in order to be able to replace that and re-plan that we obviously have to have those skills to come forth in the first place. So, in terms of that skills pipeline, what do you think is the current situation in regard to the music industry? Bearing in mind at the moment music education services are undergoing—. They've just had a feasibility study because there is concern that many are closing. And there is a reality of that as well.

Mae hynny'n sgwrs rydym ni'n ei gael gyda'r awdurdodau lleol rŷn ni'n cydweithio gyda nhw, ble maen nhw'n dweud, 'O ddiflaniad hwn, beth allwn ni ei wneud?' Felly, mae ein hymwneud cymunedol ni yn edrych ar ba fath o brosiectau gallwn ni ddod â mewn. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n golygu ein taith ni. Allwn ni ddim gwneud prosiectau cenedlaethol. Felly, mi allwn ni gynorthwyo o ran edrych ar anghenion ardal a cheisio creu profiadau unigryw yn y ddwy flynedd yn arwain at eisteddfod. Ond mae e'n frawychus o edrych ar fel mae'r datblygiadau yma'n digwydd ac fel mae yna gyn lleied o gyfleoedd o fewn ardal. Dwi'n cofio—a dwi'n gwybod y byddwn i'n dweud, 'cofio'n ôl'—ond mi oeddwn i'n ffodus iawn. Mi ges i wersi, mi fues i'n rhan o gerddorfa sirol a phob dim. Felly, o ddiflaniad rhain, sut ydyn ni'n gallu gweithio er mwyn sicrhau bod pob un—? Dwi'n credu, mewn cymdeithas wâr, dylai pob un o'i thrigolion allu cael mynediad at ddiwylliant a chelfyddyd. Ac felly mae hynny'n golygu mai'r rhai breintiedig fydd yn elwa yn y dyfodol, ac mae hynny'n boen meddwl.

Felly, i mi, mae angen edrych o ran beth yw rôl ein cwricwlwm, beth yw Donaldson, fel mae hefyd edrych ar y gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen. Yn yr un modd, o'n hochr ni, o edrych ar gerddoriaeth y sîn roc, a beth yw ein gwaith ni—mae Maes B yn edrych drwy'r flwyddyn. Mi fyddwn ni'n mynd mewn i ysgolion yn cyflwyno cerddoriaeth, oherwydd un o'r pethau yn ogystal ar ein cyfer ni fel gŵyl yw torri'r ystrydebau yna o beth yw'r iaith Gymraeg. Ac felly mae nifer o bobl yn dweud wrthym ni eu bod nhw'n gweld yr iaith fel iaith yr ysgol, ond dŷn nhw ddim yn ei gweld hi fel iaith hyfyw. Felly, mae'r cyfleodd yna. Ac mae yna nifer o bobl yn dod i Maes B, er enghraifft, sydd wastad wedi bod â marc cwestiwn am yr iaith, yn cwestiynu pa mor berthnasol yw hi ar gyfer eu bywyd pob dydd. Ac felly, mae'r profiadau anhygoel yna yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth. Ond hefyd—. Felly, ar un llaw, mae gennych chi, yn gymunedol, sut gallwch chi ei wneud e? Beth yw'r strategaeth? Beth yw'n rôl ni yn bwydo i mewn wedyn, gyda'r ystod o ffurfiau? Ond mae'n rhaid i'r strategaeth yna edrych yn gyfannol ar bob dim, oherwydd—   

That's a conversation that we have with the local authorities that we are working with, where they say, 'Given that this has gone, what can we do?' So, our community engagement does look at the kinds of projects that we can bring forward. But, of course, that means our tour. We can't provide national projects. But we can assist in terms of looking at the needs of a particular area and trying to create unique experiences in the two years in the lead up to an eisteddfod. But it is quite shocking when you look at how this development does happen and that there are so few opportunities available in any given area. I know I'm looking back now, but I was very fortunate: I had lessons and I was part of the county orchestra, and all of those experiences. Now, as these disappear, how can we work in order to ensure that everybody—? I think that in a civilised society, everyone should have access to arts and culture. And that does means that it will only be for the privileged in the future, and that is a real concern for me.

So, for me, we need to look at the role of our curriculum, Donaldson, as we need to look at the services needed. Likewise, from our perspective, in looking at the rock scene, and our work—Maes B looks at this throughout the year. We go into schools and present music to pupils, because one of the things that's important for us as a festival is to break through those cliches about the Welsh language. Many people tell us that they see the language as the language of school, but they don't see it as being a viable living language. So, the opportunities are there. So, there are a number of people who come to Maes B, for example, who've always had a question mark over the language. They've always questioned how relevant it is to their daily lives. And those experiences then are just quite incredible and do make a difference. So, on the one hand, you have what you can do at community level, what the strategy is, what our role is in feeding into that with the range of genres. But the strategy must look holistically at everything, because—

Ac eto, yn cyffwrdd â beth ddywedodd Betsan yn fanna, yr ysgolion ydy'r allwedd, achos os defnyddiwch chi'r enghraifft yma, mae Maes B yn gwneud gwaith yn yr ysgolion, mae PYST yn gwneud gwaith yn yr ysgolion, ac mae yna brosiectau ysgolion yn digwydd, er enghraifft, Bocsŵn yn Sir Fôn, sy'n datblygu nifer helaeth o fandiau newydd drwy'r amser. Does yna neb yn cymryd sylw ohonyn nhw, does yna neb yn eu canmol nhw, ond mae'r enghreifftiau yma i gyd yn digwydd yn piecemeal iawn, ac yn unigol iawn. Dydyn nhw ddim yn rhan o strategaeth. Felly, unwaith eto, mae yna wastraff o adnoddau ac egni a phrofiadau yn digwydd yn fanna. So, os ydy'r egni a'r profiadau yna, a'n bod ni'n dysgu oddi wrth ein gilydd, yna mi allwn ni wedyn, yn nhermau'r ysgolion, rolio prosiect allan dros gyfnod o fisoedd fuasai yn cael gwahaniaeth sylweddol.

And again, in terms of what Betsan said there, schools are vital, because if you use that example, Maes B does work in schools, PYST does work in schools, there are school projects happening, for example, Bocsŵn on Anglesey, which develops a number of new bands all the time. Nobody takes any notice of them, nobody praises them, but these examples are happening on a very piecemeal basis. They're not part of a strategy. So, again, there is a waste of resources and energy and experiences happening there. So, if that energy and those experiences are there, and we're learning from each other, then, in terms of schools, we can roll out a project over a period of months that would make a significant difference.

Dwi'n meddwl hefyd mae'n gynyddol anodd i fynd i mewn i ysgol. Roeddem ni arfer gwneud taith Maes  B, lle roeddem ni arfer mynd i mewn i'r ysgol bythefnos cynt ac roeddem ni'n cael gweithio gyda chriw o ran sut i farchnata gig a sut i fynd ati i drefnu'r gig yn yr ysgol. Ac mae'n anodd. Dŷn ni'n dal yn parhau, dŷn ni'n dal yn gwneud taith Maes B, ond dŷn ni ddim wastad yn gallu gwneud yr elfen farchnata, achos dyw'r ysgol ddim yn gallu rhoi'r amser i ni gyda'r plant er mwyn gallu—

It's getting increasingly difficult to get into schools. We used to have a Maes B tour, where we'd to go into schools a fortnight before the event and we would work with a group in terms of how to market a gig, how you can arrange a gig in a school. And it's difficult. We still do stage the Maes B tour, but we can't do the marketing side of things, because the school can't give us time with the children in order to do that—

Sorry to interrupt you. Sorry to interrupt, because you've all been very clear on this, and, obviously, Neal, you haven't contributed yet. In regard to the main thrust of the question, which is—and it does go back to the chicken-and-egg in terms of the strategy—do we have the venue first, or the skills first? We need all of those things. Do you feel—? Have you any concern—I don't know if you have any, Neal—in regard to that skills pipeline? Because we can have all the venues in the world—

10:10

Yes, absolutely. 

—but if you don't have any input—and we can't divorce this from 10 years of austerity—in regard to the skills that are being grown, whether they're home-grown or whether they're assisted within an infrastructure, then, surely, we're not going to be coming forth with the goods at a later date.

Precisely. I mean, I'll give quite a neat little example of it, really, the fragility of the ecosystem of this pipeline that we're talking about, but then, obviously, if it's paid some care and attention, it could actually be developed into a really good thing. So, I'll give you an example—

Absolutely, but the fragility of it, I think, it, sort of, outlines it. I don't know if you guys are familiar with a band called Neck Deep. So, Neck Deep are from Wrexham, but they're also one of the most popular pop punk bands in the world at the moment. So, I don't know if you knew that, but this a very important export from Wales—a big band. But as those guys were growing up, they would have had music lessons in school. One of the people who's involved with this band is also a very sought-after producer now as well, and they all went through the same system. They would have rehearsed at their local authority funded rehearsal room, which was opened to great pomp and ceremony in the early 2000s by the DCMS and Welsh Music Foundation, which was then, obviously—. The funding for that was cut from the local authority and it was up to a group of philanthropic individuals to take it over and keep it going. So, they've come through that system; they've done that; they've played at the small venues in Wrexham, one of which is also closed now, and then gone on to achieve this great success and support bands playing in arenas around the world and stuff like that and then come—

Absolutely, yes, and then they've come back and played at our festival, but they played a 1,000-capacity room. So, it's like they played their huge homecoming show. But all of those things—. I know it's only one example of one band and this doesn't happen every day, but even the potential for that to happen is completely—. The system that they came through in order to get to that point, it doesn't exist, or it's at risk of not existing unless somebody wants to pick up the baton and do it off their own back.

So, that moves me very nicely on to my next question in terms of the main barriers for young musicians in Wales. Is there anything further that you wanted to add to that? Because one thing that I note and I continually note is that people are working very well and centres of little pockets of excellence, and, in your case, your remit is wider, but there seems to be a need for there to be a coming together, a joining together in terms of a wider music forum for industries across Wales. So, in terms of those barriers, is there anything further apart from what you've just articulated, Neal?

Dwi'n credu diwedd y gân yw'r geiniog, ac, mewn gwirionedd, mae gwir angen, os ydych chi i gael mynediad i'r gerddoriaeth, mynediad hefyd i ffyrdd—. Er enghraifft, buaswn i'n dweud, o edrych ar gymdeithas gwâr, byddai rhaid edrych ar Eisteddfod fforddiadwy er mwyn rhoi cyfleoedd i brofi'r diwylliant cynhenid. Ond, yn yr un modd hefyd, os nad yw'r cyfleoedd yna'n digwydd yn yr ysgolion ar gyfer datblygu'r artist, yna rŷn ni'n mynd i fod yn creu celfyddyd uchel-ael iawn ac mae ar gyfer dosbarth penodol hefyd, a dylai hwnna fyth fod yn rhan o genadwriaeth gwlad fel ni.

I think it all comes down to money at the end of the day. If you are to provide access to music, you also need to provide access to—. For example, I would say, looking at a civilized society, we need to look at an affordable Eisteddfod so that people can experience Welsh culture. But, in the same way, if those opportunities aren't being offered in schools to develop the artist, then we are going to be creating a very highbrow culture for a specific class, and that should never be part of the mission of a nation like ours.

Thank you. In regard to the Forté Project, we've mentioned that, we've mentioned the role of PYST and the fact that there may be a potentiality for a coming together in terms of the current sector across Wales, in terms of—

Mae yna eisiau pethau fel Brwydr y Bandiau. Dŷn ni'n cyd-weithio gyda Radio Cymru. Rŷch chi'n rhan o brosiect ni'n edrych arno gyda Clwb Ifor. Felly, mae yna gyfleoedd i fandiau i godi—

Well, things such as Battle of the Bands are needed. We work with Radio Cymru. You're part of a project we're looking at with Clwb Ifor. So, there are opportunities for bands—

As far as meeting points—. I've, kind of, resisted talking about myself, but FOCUS Wales is that, though, as well. I mean, it is an industry meeting point. Everyone's invited, by the way, as well, so—.

And other organisations. We could list a few, like ProMo-Cymru, but we won't go there. Okay. Thank you for that.

So, we've mentioned the concern that there is about the diminution of non-statutory services around music education services in Wales. In regard to the wider music industry and in regard to the popular music platforms and the works that you do, you've given us an example that there is an impact, or, potentially, that there is a difficulty if that were to not strengthen and grow. Is there a wider impact for music services education if that doesn't become strengthened and growing in regard to the wider music industry? I think a brief answer would be useful.

10:15

Wel, buaswn i'n dweud mae cerddoriaeth—. Am ryw reswm, rydym ni'n rhoi pobl mewn niche, lle rydyn ni'n dweud, 'O, clasurol', neu beth bynnag, ond mae'r pontio yna'n digwydd yn reddfol o ran cerddoriaeth. Ac felly, gyda'r esiampl yna, mi gychwynnwyd, efallai, yn glasurol, ac yna mi ddatblygodd. Felly i fi, mae'n rhaid inni ochel rhag hefyd edrych ar greu cerddoriaeth mewn pocedi, a'n bod ni'n edrych arno fe yn gyfannol o ran datblygiad cyfleoedd.

I would say that we often put people in a particular niche—classical or whatever— but that bridge is always open with music. So with that example, they started classically and it developed. So, for me, we have to be guarded in putting music into silos, and we'd look at it holistically in terms of development of opportunities.

Dŷn ni wedi cael tystiolaeth wrth bobl sy'n dweud dŷn nhw ddim wedi dod trwy'r system honno, a dyw'r bobl sydd yn mynd ymlaen i wneud stwff, bandiau, ddim yn—. Dwi ddim yn cytuno, ond dŷn ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth felly. 

We've had evidence from people who say that they haven't come through that particular system, and people who go on to do stuff with bands, don't—. I don't agree, but we have heard evidence on that.

But, either way, however music service provision is delivered for young people to access it, without any of that, you don't get the end product—simple as that.

In terms of case studies, I think, if you talk to the Manic Street Preachers, the Stereophonics, they will evidence as well some of the instrumental tuition they had in school. So, I understand it's a mixed scene, and, obviously, in terms of popular platforms, people can come to it at a later date and can excel at a later date. But, as you've said, often, they have come through a structure in the first place to have that basic element.

And that's the thing. It's not a problem. It's not looking at it as something, 'Oh, we need to fix that.' It's, 'Why don't we make more of it?' Because it clearly works—do you know what I mean? It's something to be developed.

Right. I'll stick to my questions. We've discussed availability of rehearsal space and we've discussed some of the announcement yesterday, and, obviously, in regard to that, I don't think you've got anything further to add in terms of the fact that there needs to be a strategy underpinning that, in terms of not just having a space, there has to be—. You mentioned promoters, and you've also mentioned the fixtures and fittings, in terms of it's not just that venue, it has to have that infrastructure.

Yes. Everything needs to operate within a strategy, I agree with that, but then so long as it's accessible to the people who know what they're doing, to the people in the businesses, and that that can be developed, and that will benefit from this to be able to build their skills and be able to build their reach and be able to build, you know—. A high-quality music industry is what we want in Wales, isn't it? And that's the way to do it. You let the people who know what they're doing get the job done and give them the help to do it.

Ac mae hefyd yn bwysig cofio faint o sgiliau sy'n bodoli o gwmpas cerddoriaeth. Dydy cerddoriaeth ddim yn golygu bod mewn band neu chwarae ffidil. Mae'n golygu bob math o bethau, fel roedd Neal yn sôn am—bod yn dechnegydd sain, neu goleuo, neu hyrwyddo, neu creu blog. Mae yna gymaint o bethau sydd o gwmpas cerddoriaeth fel diwylliant, ac mae hynny'n bwysig i gofio. Mae'n bwysig cofio bod yna gymaint o sgiliau sy'n bodoli, a chymaint o greadigrwydd o fewn y sgiliau yna hefyd. So, nid yn unig yn economaidd mae o'n bwysig, ond yn greadigol ac yn ddiwylliannol mae o'n bwysig hefyd.

And it's also important to bear in mind the skills that exist around music. Music isn't only about playing the fiddle or being in a band. It means all sorts of things, like Neal mentioned—being a sound technician, lighting, promotion, writing a blog. There are so many things around music in cultural terms, and that's important to bear in mind. It's important to bear in mind that we have so many of those skills, and creativity within those skill sectors. So, it's not only important economically, it's important culturally too.

So, in regard to that last point about how important this is, or could be, potentially, and is at the moment, to Wales, that wider economic and cultural growth in terms of that wider plethora of not secondary jobs, equally important jobs, that come from that, would you say that there is an economic argument for investment in the music industry in Wales?

Oes, yn sicr, achos mae'r ymyrraeth ariannol yna yn mynd i greu swyddi. Mae'r ymyrraeth ariannol yna yn mynd i arwain at mwy o gyfleon i fynd i gigs, sy'n mynd i gyfrannu at yr economi yn lleol, boed yn nhermau bar, ac yn nhermau bob math o spinoffs fel yna. So, ydy, mae ymyrraeth ariannol yn mynd i greu arian ac yn mynd i greu twf economaidd mewn cymunedau unigol. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n hollbwysig ein bod ni'n edrych ar y twf yna mewn termau cymunedol, ein bod ni'n edrych arno fo yn nhermau yr effaith mae'r twf yna'n ei gael ar y gymuned, yr effaith mae'r twf yna'n mynd i gael ar gadw pobl ifanc o fewn i gymuned, fel dydyn nhw ddim yn gorfod gadael i symud i Gaerdydd i feithrin y sgiliau yna—bod y sgiliau yna ar gael yn lleol. So, os ydyn ni'n edrych ar y twf yna fel rhan o strategaeth gymunedol, yna mae'r manteision economaidd a ddaw yn sgil hynny yn aruthrol. 

Without doubt, yes, because that financial intervention will create jobs. That financial intervention will lead to more opportunities to go to gigs, which will contribute to the local economy, be it in terms of the bar, whatever it may be. So, yes, financial intervention will generate revenue and generate economic growth in individual communities. I think it's crucial that we look at that growth in community terms, that we look at it in terms of the impact that has on the community, the impact that growth will have on keeping young people within their communities so they don't have to move to Cardiff to develop those skills—that those skills are available locally. So, if we look at that growth as part of a community strategy, then the economic benefits that will come in the wake of that are huge.

A buaswn i'n dweud, heb hynny, rydych chi'n cyfyngu ar ddatblygiad artistiaid, ond, yn ogystal, hefyd ar rywbeth rydyn ni heb sôn amdani—y gynulleidfa. Felly law yn llaw â'r datblygiad yma mae datblygiad yr ochr gynulleidfaol.

I would say that, without that, you limit the development of those skills and another thing that we haven't mentioned is that you limit the development of the audience, so it goes hand in hand. You need to develop the audience side as well.

Diolch yn fawr. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen nawr at y cwestiynau olaf gan David Melding. Diolch, David.

Thank you. We'll move on to the final questions from David Melding. Thank you, David.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Neal mentioned earlier the issue of business rates, and music venues are seen as another business on the high street. And I think that the rest of you may be able, from your positions, to view how some in the industry feel about these sorts of issues, but could I connect them to licensing and planning as well? We have heard from some that venues are undermined by poor planning and inflexible licensing, for instance, around late night, or the requirements, and others not having a policy on 14 to 18-year-olds, and the sale of alcohol, and all these things affect a business. So, how key are those rather plumbing issues—how directly do they play in the viability of some venues, do you think?

10:20

Well, they're definitely—. They're are all factors, aren't they? I think these tiny businesses are very much overwhelmed by this kind of blanket set of rules that they have to adhere to that aren't relevant to a lot of these businesses at all. And especially if you look at—. I was having a conversation with someone last night; if a venue is under a certain capacity, given these kinds of overheads, it's almost impossible for that to be a functioning business and to make any kind of profit. We're really burning out enthusiastic people who just want to do it a lot of the time. I don't know if everyone would have that—.

Dwi’n meddwl bod yna bwynt pwysig. Dwi ddim yn arbenigwr ar reolau cynllunio na thrwyddedu ac yn y blaen, ond dwi'n meddwl un peth pwysig yn fanna dwi’n pigo fyny arno fo ydy’r broblem efo canolfannau gigs i gynulleidfa ifanc 16 i 18, achos dŷn ni’n trio yn aml trefnu gig mewn tafarn, ac, yn naturiol ddigon, mae'r dafarn yn mynd, 'Dwi ddim eisiau rhoi'r gig yna ymlaen; gwnawn ni wneud dim arian o gwbl ar y bar'. So, mae hwnna ynddo'i hun yn broblem arall hefyd. Mae yna gynulleidfa sydd yn cael ei chau allan o weld cerddoriaeth fyw oherwydd y problemau hynny. A does yna ddim bai yn fanna ar y canolfannau achos, yn naturiol, maen nhw'n byw off eu pres bar. Ond mae angen wedyn—ac o bosib bod hwnna'n clymu nôl i mewn efo'r syniad o’r canolfannau yna’n cael eu prynu o’r pwrs cyhoeddus; o bosib ei fod o—mae angen sicrhau mynediad i'r 16 i 18 i gigs yn gyson hefyd. Achos beth sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd ydy gigs achlysurol i 16 i 18 sy’n troi mewn i bartïon anferthol, ond, yn aml, os ydyn nhw’n cael gigs sy’n fwy aml, yn fwy cyson, mae yna fwy o werthfawrogiad o gerddoriaeth yn digwydd hefyd. Pan oeddwn i’n ifanc, roeddwn i’n 'sneak-io' mewn, oeddwn, ond doedd e ddim gymaint am fynd i mewn i gig jest er mwyn yr yfed; roeddwn i'n mynd mewn i weld bands ar yr un pryd. So, mae angen edrych ar strwythur fuasai yn creu mwy o gigs rheolaidd i’r gynulleidfa yna hefyd.

I think there's an important point. I'm no expert on licensing or planning regulations, but one important thing that I pick up on is the problem with venues for that young audience between 16 and 18, because we often try to arrange gigs in a pub and, naturally, the pub will say 'Well, I don't want that gig; we'll make no money at the bar'. So, that in itself is a problem. There is an audience that's being excluded from live music because of those problems. And there is no blame on the venues, because, naturally, they live off their bar takings. But we then need—and perhaps this ties in to this idea of having those centres bought from the public purse—we need to ensure access to those between 16 and 18 to regular gigs. Because what we have at the moment is occasional gigs for those people, which turn into huge parties, yes, but, if they have more regular gigs, then there is more appreciation of the music. So, when I was young, I would sneak into gigs, yes, but it wasn't just about getting in there to drink; it was to go and see a band. So, we need to look at a structure that would create more regular gigs for that audience too.

Beth sy'n rhyfedd, hefyd—rwyt ti'n gallu mynd i gig yn y Motorpoint neu’r Tramshed, sy'n venue fwy o seis yn 14 oed, ond rwyt ti ffaelu mynd i gig mewn grass-roots venue tra dy fod ti'n—. Weithiau maen nhw'n trefnu gigs i 16, ond fel arfer 18 yw e. So, rwyt ti'n colli'r entry level bands yna wedyn efo'r gynulleidfa.

What's interesting too is that you can go to a gig at the Motorpoint or the Tramshed at the age of 14, but you can't go to a gig at a grass-roots venue until you're—. Sometimes they arrange gigs for 16-year-olds, but it's usually at age 18. So, you lose those entry-level bands with the audience.

Ac, o ran trwyddedu hefyd, o ran yr ochr wyliau, mae e'n amrywio gan ddibynnu ar ba awdurdod lleol yw e. Ac felly mae profiad—. Ac mae yna rai gwyliau hefyd, oherwydd y cymalau penodol sy’n cael eu gosod, sy'n teimlo ei fod e'n anymarferol i ddatblygu ac i fodoli. Felly, mae hynny hefyd. Weithiau, mae yna un cyngor yn edrych ar yr ochr drwyddedu'n gwbl wahanol i gyngor arall, ac mae hynny'n effeithio, achos rŷm ni’n teithio, ac felly weithiau bydd e'n dyblu ar gost diogelwch mewn un neu'r llall. Felly, yn ariannol mae'n effeithio ar bobl.

And, in terms of licensing, for festivals, it does depend on what local authority you're working with. There are some festivals, because of specific clauses that are put in place, that feel it's impractical for them to develop and even exist. So, on occasion, there might be a council that would look at the licensing very differently from another, and that has an impact, because we tour and, of course, it can double the cost of security, for example. So, financially, it has an impact too.

I wonder—. Obviously, these issues are under the control of local authorities and we've had a couple of references to perhaps we need a national approach with national funding to sustain these more grass-roots facilities, and I just wonder how realistic that is. Local authorities are under a general duty to promote economic well-being and the sustainability of local economies, and duties under youth policy and a whole range of things that would be relevant to this area. And if we were hoping to see Wales as a renowned tourist visit, because wherever you went, or nearly anywhere, you would have access to some interesting music—. And let's face it, large parts of North America are marketed on that; interestingly, they're in some of the poorest states, which is another matter. I think it does have an effect on the creative process, but also on the market value that you can find if you're identifying those sorts of opportunities. Councils can do this, so why aren't they the best level to really sustain this, by having policies that don't just milk the business element, but see the wider cultural and then tourism benefits, possibly? It seems to me that's going to be much easier to sustain than having a grants process and—.

There's definitely an argument for—you know, we're talking about a strategy. Another thing that's come up in this is a music board, so Cardiff has their music board, and a regional music board. So, yes, you're quite right, but what's the point of entry with the local authority? It's like there's no engagement, there's no way of doing that that's obvious, whereas, say, for example, if any of the regions of Wales had a board set up whose function is to engage with the local authority, there's a body that the authority can communicate with then, and they can collate ideas and questions and problems like this from the businesses who are a little bit too busy running their business to try and hassle the council about their one little business. Whereas if we can collate all of these things into a sensible argument and say, 'Well, look, local authority, these people are having this problem, and we recognise the value of live music, and we need to support this across the country, how do we fix this in this particular scenario?' And then there's a clear parlance that can happen between two sets of human beings, then, isn't there? In my opinion, that would be one way around it.

10:25

Dwi'n credu un o'r pethau o ran awdurdodau lleol yw maen nhw'n sôn am beth mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw ei gyflawni yn statudol. Mae yna obsesiwn efo'r statudol. Eto i gyd, dwi'n credu, o ran Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 a'r ochr lesiant, mae yna gyfrifoldeb fanna, ac felly mae angen inni gael y drafodaeth o ran ble mae'r celfyddydau a diwylliant yn rhan o hynny. Oherwydd mae yna deimlad—. Dwi ddim eisiau dweud ei fod e drwyddi draw, achos mae rhai'n gwneud gwaith ardderchog yn y maes yma, ond mae'r statudol a, 'O, mae hwn yn ychwanegol.' Dylai diwylliant fyth fod yn ychwanegol i awdurdod lleol.

I think, in terms of local authorities, it's about what they have to achieve on a statutory basis. There is an obsession with what is statutory. But, under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, there's a focus on well-being and  there's a responsibility there, so we need to have a discussion about where culture and the arts are part of that. Because there is a feeling—. I don't want to say it's everywhere, because some are doing excellent work on this, but there's what's statutory and the sense that this is additional, whereas culture should never be an additional thing for local authorities.

I think, then, if we have some kind of formal scenario, where that idea can be communicated on a regional basis, it'll make everything easier, because it's not the authority trying to think about, 'How do we fulfil this thing?' It's, 'No, now you're obliged to do it in this way, because the sector is advising you how to fulfil it.'

Do any of the witnesses have any views on this idea of local—or possibly regional would be a better structure—music boards?

Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig i drio dod at ei gilydd mor aml â phosib y partneriaid pwysig ar lefel leol. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn fod unrhyw benderfyniadau, yn gyffredinol, yn cael eu datganoli i lefel gymunedol lle mae modd gwneud hynny, a dwi'n meddwl bod problemau cerddorol cymunedau amrywiol Cymru yn amrywiol tu hwnt. Mae yna wahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng y problemau sydd gan Gaerfyrddin a sydd gan Gaerdydd, rhwng beth sydd gan Rhyl a beth sydd gan Gaernarfon. Maen nhw'n broblemau sylfaenol diwylliannol, economaidd, ieithyddol—pob math o ffactorau. Wedyn, os oes modd mynd â'r math o fyrddau yna, neu'r math o baneli yna, lle mae ymgynghoriad call yn digwydd gyda nid yn unig yr arbenigwyr ond hefyd y gynulleidfa botensial, yna mae hynna'n amlwg yn rhywbeth y dylid ei annog ar bob cyfrif.

I think it's important to bring the important partners together at a local level as often as possible. I think that it's important that any decisions, generally, are devolved to the local community where possible, and I think that the musical problems of the various communities of Wales are very diverse. There is a fundamental difference between the problems that Carmarthen face and what Cardiff face, between Rhyl and Caernarfon. They're fundamental cultural, economic, linguistic problems—there are all sorts of factors. So, if we can take those kinds of boards or those kinds of panels where there is sensible consultation not only with the experts, but with the potential audience, then that is certainly something that should be encouraged on all counts.

Thank you very much. I think it's worth noting that the issue of regional boards was volunteered—I would have lead you there, if you'd not actually raised it. [Laughter.] But I do think that adds weight to this part of the evidence. Thanks. Diolch yn fawr.

Un cwestiwn clou gen i jest o ran beth oedd Betsan Moses yn ei ddweud. Dŷn ni wedi clywed am y gwahaniaeth rhwng yr awdurdodau lleol o ran trwyddedau, efallai yn sgil y fath o gerddoriaeth, er enghraifft grime, neu beth bynnag, lle mae yna efallai stereoteip o ran beth mae'r gerddoriaeth yna'n mynd i arwain ato o ran problemau i ryw fath o leoliad. Ydych chi'n gallu rhoi—? Ond dŷn ni ddim wedi cael tystiolaeth gadarn, i fod yn onest. Oes yna dystiolaeth gyda chi—a dydw i ddim eisiau ichi enwi awdurdodau lleol—i ddweud wrthym ni, i'n helpu ni, pam maen nhw'n eich siarsio chi mwy mewn un ardal o'i chymharu â'r llall? Ar sail beth maen nhw'n gwneud hynny?

One quick question from me in terms of what Betsan Moses was saying. We've heard about the difference between the local authorities in terms of licences, perhaps with regard to the kind of music, for example grime, where there may be a stereotype in terms of what that music may lead to in terms of issues or difficulties for a particular venue. But we haven't received robust evidence on that, to be honest. So, do you have evidence—I don't want you to name names—to tell us, to help us with why they charge you more in one area as compared to another. On what basis do they do that?

Dwi'n credu oherwydd mae—er enghraifft, Maes B, mae'n cael ei edrych arno fel gŵyl sy'n ymdebygu i Glastonbury, neu beth bynnag, yn eu golwg nhw, ac felly maen nhw'n meddwl, 'Ocê, mae hynny'n golygu o ran y lefel o drwyddedu mae angen inni gael hyn a hyn o stiwardiaid, o ddiogelwch, ac yn y blaen.' Weithiau mae yna fwy o bobl diogelwch yno ar gychwyn noson na beth sydd yna o gynulleidfa. Mae'r gynulleidfa'n teimlo, 'Beth yw hwn? Ni'n teimlo fel—.' Wel, mae'n teimlo'n anghysurus. Ac felly efallai mae yna ddiffyg dealltwriaeth o beth yw'r digwyddiad ond hefyd o ran fel maen nhw'n darllen y ddeddf.

Felly, o'm rhan i, mae angen—os ydych chi'n dweud, 'Rŷn ni eisiau bod yn ddinas gerddorol', er enghraifft, yna mae'n rhaid ichi fod yn glir beth yw'r polisi ar gyfer gwireddu hynny a'ch bod chi'n gallu—. Felly, wrth i bob un o'r awdurdodau edrych ar beth—. Diogelwch pobl sydd y flaenaf, wrth gwrs hynny, ond mae'n rhaid hefyd edrych ar y profiad a phob dim. Weithiau, mae mynd dros ben llestri, yn mynd yn negyddol, ac felly bydd y bobl yn dweud, 'Wel, oes yna ddymuniad i fynd i wyliau os mai dyma beth sy'n digwydd?' Felly hynny yw e, rwy'n credu, o ran yr ymateb a'r gorymateb weithiau fyddai'n digwydd.

I think, for example, Maes B is seen as a festival akin to Glastonbury in their view, and they think then, 'In terms of the licensing level, we need to have so many stewards, security staff and so on and so forth.' On occasion, there are more security staff in the early evening than there is an audience, and the audience feel, 'Well, what's going on here?' It does feel uncomfortable. So, perhaps it's a lack of understanding of what the event actually is, but also in terms of how they read the regulations.

So, from my perspective, if you're saying, 'We want to be a city of music', then you have to set out your policy for delivering that. Therefore, as each of the local authorities look at—. Because people's safety and security is the utmost, but we have to look at the experience. Sometimes, if you go over the top, it can be very negative and then people would say, 'Well, do we really want to go to these festivals if this is how they are?' So, I think it's about the response and the overreaction on occasion.

Ocê. Rŷn ni jest yn trio ffeindio mas sut y byddem ni'n gallu cynnig y newidiadau hynny. Rŷn ni wedi clywed bod Casnewydd, er enghraifft, yn dda iawn, ond, heb inni gael tystiolaeth gadarn, mae'n anodd i ni, dyna'i gyd. Dyna'i gyd hoffwn i ddweud i orffen, ond—.

Okay. We're just trying to discover how we could propose those changes. We've heard that Newport, for example, is very good, but, without that robust evidence, it's difficult for us to make the case. That's all I would like to say to conclude.

Buaswn i'n dweud bod rhai'n ymateb yn llawer mwy teg, neu yn deall yn well. Mi allwn i roi rhai ichi. O ran tegwch, mae'n annheg i fi ddweud, 'Yn y 20 blynedd diwethaf, dyma'r rhaid da, dyma'r rhai gwael'—dwi i eisiau parhau i deithio [Chwerthin.] Ond hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae ymateb—. Os oes yna gwynwyr parhaus mewn cyngor, ac os yw rhywun yn dweud, 'Beth, mae yna sain yn mynd i fod tan ddau o'r gloch y bore?'—weithiau, mae'r un unigolyn yna â dylanwad lle maen nhw'n dweud, 'Er mwyn sicrhau nad yw hwn yn mynd i effeithio arnoch chi—.' Weithiau, beth yw'r balans? Mae yna un sy'n cwyno'n barhaus yn cael llawer o glust.

I would say that some respond in a far more even-handed manner, or are more understanding. I'd give you some examples, but, in terms of fairness, it would be unfair for me to say that, 'In the past 20 years, these are the good ones and these are the bad ones'—I want to stay in work. [Laughter.] But also if there are regular complainants within the council, and, if someone says, 'What, it's going to be noisy until two o'clock in the morning?'—then, on occasion, that one individual has a huge influence, where they will say, 'In order to ensure that this doesn't impact you—'. Then you need to look at the balance. You have one regular complainant who is given more of a hearing than others.

10:30

Ocê, dyna oll sydd gennym ni o ran amser, ond os oes mwy o dystiolaeth gyda chi i'w rhoi inni, yna plîs ysgrifennwch atom ni. Dŷn ni'n agored i hynny. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod i mewn, ac os oes yna rywbeth—eich bod chi'n gadael ac mae yna bwnc llosg yn dod i'ch pen, plîs cysylltwch â ni. Ond diolch yn fawr eto am roi tystiolaeth gerbron.

Byddwn ni'n cymryd seibiant o 10 munud nawr.

Okay, that's all from us, time has beaten us, but if there's more that you want to say, please do write to us. We're open to that. But thank you very much for joining us, and if you leave the room and there's something that you think you've forgotten to say, then do please get in touch. But thank you again for giving evidence today.

We'll take a break of 10 minutes now.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:30 a 10:41.

The meeting adjourned between 10:30 and 10:41

10:40
3. Ymchwiliad i gerddoriaeth fyw
3. Inquiry into live music

Diolch a chroeso nôl i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, sef, ymchwiliad i gerddoriaeth fyw yng Nghymru. Rydym ni'n croesawu Branwen Williams, artist o Candelas, ac Osian Williams o Candelas, a hefyd Dilwyn Llwyd yma, hyrwyddwr Neuadd Ogwen, ac wedyn Marged Gwenllian, artist, Y Cledrau, Glain Rhys a'r Band. Felly, mae Dilwyn gyda ni yma yng Nghaerdydd, ac wedyn mae gennym nil link-up, so dwi'n gobeithio y bydd hyn i gyd yn gweithio. Shwmae i chi gyd, a diolch i chi am roi tystiolaeth gerbron heddiw.

Byddwn ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, so os mae'n iawn, gwnaf i jest gychwyn. Dilwyn, dwi'n gwybod roeddech chi yma yn gynharach yn clywed y sesiwn blaenorol. Felly, jest yn gyffredinol, beth ydych chi'n credu mae'r sîn fel ar hyn o bryd o ran cerddoriaeth fyw yng Nghymru? Ydych chi'n credu ei bod wedi gwaethygu, gwella, neu sut mae'n edrych ar hyn o bryd? Pwy sydd eisiau cychwyn?

Thank you and welcome back to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. We move on to item 3 on the agenda, namely the inquiry into live music in Wales, and welcome Branwen Williams, who's an artist with Candelas, Osian Williams, also from Candelas, and Dilwyn Llwyd, who is here in the room, a promoter at Neuadd Ogwen, and then Marged Gwenllian, artist, Y Cledrau, Glain Rhys a'r Band. So, Dilwyn is joining us here in Cardiff, and then we have a link-up, so we hope that all of the technology will work. Good morning to you all and thank you for giving evidence to us today.

We will be asking themed questions. If it's okay, I'll just start with my questions. Dilwyn, I know that you were here earlier to listen to the previous session. So, just in general, what do you think is the state of the scene at the moment in Wales in terms of live music? Do you think it's improved, deteriorated? How does it look at the moment?

Ydych chi eisiau i mi ddechrau? Yn bersonol, dwi'n credu bod y sîn y iachaf mae wedi bod ers blynyddoedd. Dwi wedi bod yn ymwneud efo'r sîn gerddoriaeth ers tua 15 mlynedd mewn gwahanol feysydd. Dwi'n chwarae mewn bandiau, dwi'n rhedeg label recordiau, a dwi'n trefnu gigs. Felly, o ran y gwahanol fathau o gerddoriaeth sydd gennym ni, dwi'n ei weld o ar ei fwyaf diddorol y mae wedi bod ers degawdau.

Mae dyfodiad PYST wedi bod yn lot o help i ni fel label ac i ni fel bandiau, i ddod ag ychydig bach mwy o drefn i'r sîn gerddoriaeth gyfoes. Felly, yn hynny o beth, dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n eithaf cadarnhaol ar hyn o bryd. Yr ochr negyddol ydy'r toriadau mewn blaendaliadau i gerddorion sydd, yn ei dro, yn atal pethau fel y cyllid i fynd i recordio cerddoriaeth. Pwy sydd eisiau neidio mewn?

Should I start? Personally, I think the scene is the healthiest it's been for years. I've been involved with the music scene for around 15 years in various guises. I play in bands, I run a record label and I also arrange gigs. So, in terms of the various genres, I see it as being as interesting as it's been for decades.

The arrival of PYST has been a huge help for us as a label, and for us as bands, to bring more order to the contemporary music scene. So in that regard, I do think it's quite positive at the moment. The negative side is the cuts to royalties for musicians, which, in turn, prevents the funding for the recording of music. I don't know if anyone else wants to jump in.

Dwi'n cytuno â hwnna. Mae'r diddordeb a'r cyffro yna, yn enwedig efo cyfryngau cymdeithasol ac ati. Mae'r sylw i'r bandiau yn cael ei roi, sy'n brilliant. Mae'r diddordeb yna ymysg pobl ifanc a hŷn a dysgwyr, ond eto, oherwydd pethau fel Spotify ac ati, mae'r elw mae'r bandiau'n ei wneud yn mynd yn is, felly, mae'n anoddach creu mwy o gynnyrch. Mae'n job drud rhwng yr offer a mynd i'r stiwdio i recordio ac ati. Felly, mae angen diolch i bobl fel PYST sydd yn rhoi caneuon pobl ar blatfformau ehangach, sy'n dod â phres i mewn, ond mae bandiau, yn ariannol, yn struggle-o, buaswn i'n meddwl.  

The interest and the excitement are there, especially in terms of social media, and the attention given to the band is excellent. The interest amongst young and older people and learners is excellent, and because of things such as Spotify, the profits that the band make are getting lower, so it's difficult. It is an expensive job in terms of equipment and studio time and so on. So we need to thank people such as PYST, who provide a wider stage and platform for performers, but bands, financially, are struggling.

Ie, gallaf i ond ategu beth mae Bran a Marged wedi'i ddweud. Mae'r sîn o ran y bandiau a'r amrywiaeth i gyd yn hollol wych. Ond y cwbl mae bandiau eisiau'i wneud—a does dim pwys ar ba lefel, a dweud y gwir—ydy gigio a recordio. Felly, mae'r ffaith bod y toriadau'n digwydd, sy'n golygu bod yna lai o bres i bandiau, yn bach o broblem—bod bandiau'n methu mynd i'r stiwdio, methu ei fforddio fo, a dweud y gwir. Mae'n andros o strygl i fandiau allu recordio albwm cyfan y dyddiau yma.

Yes, I can only echo what Branwen and Marged have said. The scene in terms of the diversity of bands I think is brilliant at the moment. But all that bands want to do—and on what level is not important, to be honest—is gig and record, really. So, the fact that the cuts are happening, which means that there's less money available for bands, is a problem, because bands can't afford studio time. It's a huge struggle for bands to afford to record a whole album at the moment. 

10:45

Sori, dwi ddim yn gallu clywed ti'n dda iawn. Sori, Osian. Dwi i'n trio ffeindio ffordd well. Mae gen i hwn nawr. Diolch. 

Dilwyn.

I couldn't hear you very well there, Osian. We're trying to find out whether we can improve the sound. I have the headset now. Thank you.

Dilwyn. 

Ydy'r cwestiwn yn benodol am gerddoriaeth yn Gymraeg, neu ydy o am—?

Is the question specifically about the Welsh language scene?

Dim yn y Gymraeg eto, ond yng Nghymru. Fy nghwestiwn nesaf i oedd hynny, ond os wyt ti am ateb y ddau beth, mae hynny'n iawn. 

No, it's about the scene in Wales. That's my next question, but you can take both at once, if you'd prefer. 

Dwi'n meddwl efallai eich bod chi'ch tri yn meddwl am beth rydych chi'n ei wneud ar y sîn roc yn y Gymraeg. Dwi'n cytuno efo pob dim maen nhw wedi ei ddweud; dwi'n gwneud cerddoriaeth hefyd a dwi'n cael yr un problemau. Mae jyst yn hollol aneconomaidd i greu cerddoriaeth. Mae'n costio lot mwy nag y gallwch chi byth ei wneud allan ohono fo. Ac mae hwnna i gyd lawr i beth sydd wedi digwydd efo'r Performing Right Society ac ati. Felly, mae hynny wedi cael impact anferth, nid yn unig ar faint y gerddoriaeth, achos mae yna gerddoriaeth ffantastig yn digwydd, ond y math o gerddoriaeth sy'n cael ei chreu ac a ydy'r gerddoriaeth wedyn yn gallu mynd allan o Gymru oherwydd yr anawsterau efo'r busnes PRS yma. 

Dwi'n edrych arni hefyd o'r ochr rhedeg venue, ac mae hynny'n anodd, ond dŷn ni'n bwrw ymlaen ac yn rhoi cerddoriaeth Gymraeg a cherddoriaeth byd—lot o gerddoriaeth byd—ymlaen. Er ei bod hi'n anodd, dwi'n meddwl bod y bendith cymdeithasol yn ei wneud o'n werth o. Dwi'n meddwl, yn economaidd, mae cerddoriaeth yn gallu gwneud lles i bobl ond hefyd rydyn ni'n creu llwyth o waith i bobl yn y gymuned ac yn helpu busnesau eraill. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n anhygoel o bwysig. 

Well, I do think that the three of you are thinking about your work and the Welsh language rock scene, and I agree with everything that they say; I'm involved in music and I have the same problems. It's uneconomical to create music at the moment. It costs a lot more than you could ever make from it, and that's all down to what's happened with the Performing Right Society and so on and so forth. That's had a huge impact, not only on how much music is made, because there's fantastic music out there, but the kind of music that's made, too, and whether that music, then, can cross the Welsh border, because of difficulties with this PRS business. 

I also look at it as someone who runs a venue, and that's difficult, but we are continuing to provide a stage for Welsh music and world music—there's a lot of world music at our venue. And although it's difficult, I think the social benefits do make it worthwhile. I think, economically, music can have an impact, but also it has an impact in terms of people's well-being, and we create jobs for people in the community, we help other businesses in the community and therefore I think that it's incredibly important. 

I symud ymlaen, felly, at y sîn gerddoriaeth trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, rydyn ni wedi clywed efallai ei bod hi'n gweithredu mewn silos, lle os dŷch chi'n mynd i gig yng Nghymru sydd yn yr iaith Gymraeg, dŷch chi'n dueddol o sticio at hynny a does dim digon o gigiau dwyieithog sy'n annog pobl i integreiddio mwy. Ydych chi'n gallu rhoi rhyw fath o sylw ar hynny a beth dŷch chi'n credu gallai ddigwydd i wella hynny?

So, to move on to the Welsh-medium music scene, we've heard, perhaps, that it operates in silos. So, if you go to a Welsh-medium gig, you tend to stick to those kinds of gigs and there aren't enough bilingual gigs that encourage integration. Can you give us some kind of comment on what could be done to improve that situation?

Beth dwi'n trio ei wneud yw chwalu'r rheolau yna a jest cynnal digwyddiadau, a jest anwybyddu hynny'n llwyr. Dwi'n cynnal cerddoriaeth mewn llwyth o wahanol ieithoedd gan bobl brodorol o bob man yn y byd, ac yn y Gymraeg. Mae hynny'n gallu normaleiddio pethau—bod y broblem yna ddim yna bod yna ryw ffin rhwng y ddau beth. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n un ffordd o'i chwmpas hi. Ond hyd yn oed ar ôl gwneud hynny, mae yna ffiniau yn dal i fodoli. Mae pobl yn licio jazz a phobl yn licio pync, felly mae'r rheini'n ffiniau hefyd, felly mae dal ffiniau. Mae'r gwaith mae rhai artistiaid wedi ei wneud, fel Gruff Rhys, mae o jest yn anwybyddu'r ffiniau hynny ac yn gwneud beth bynnag mae o eisiau ar y pryd. Weithiau, dyna ydy'r ateb; jest ei wneud o a jest gwneud pethau'n amlieithog. 

What I'm trying to do is to break the rules and just to stage events and ignore those barriers. I actually provide a stage for music in all sorts of different languages, communities from across the world as well as Welsh language music, and that can normalise and deal with that problem. There shouldn't be that barrier between the two. I think that's one way around it. But even having done that, there are still boundaries and barriers—some people like jazz, some people like punk, so that's a barrier in itself. So they do exist. But the work that some artists have done, such as Gruff Rhys, for example, he just ignores any kind of boundaries or barriers and he does what he wants to do at any given time. That's sometimes the solution. Just do it; just do things multilingually. 

Dyna un peth mawr, dwi'n meddwl, rydym ni am ei godi heddiw y byddwn ni'n licio ei weld yn digwydd ydy yn union hynny: bod yna fwy o gigs dwyieithog mewn ffordd, a bod bandiau fel Candelas, er enghraifft—. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn gigio ers dros 10 mlynedd ac maen siŵr buaswn i'n gallu cyfrif bron ar un neu ddwy law faint o weithiau rydyn ni wedi gwneud gig efo bandiau di-Gymraeg neu y tu allan i Gymru. Dwi'n gweld bod yna, efallai, ychydig bach o fai arnon ni a'n bod ni'n ddiog, ond, dal. Mae'r cynigion gigs yn tueddu i fod jest bandiau o Gymru, Cymry Cymraeg, sydd yn iawn weithiau, ond os ydym ni eisiau gwerthu beth sydd gennym ni a dangos y talent a'r bandiau sydd gennym ni, dwi'n meddwl mai'r ffordd i arwain hynna ydy cymysgu gigs o ran bandiau Cymraeg a di-Gymraeg. 

Well, that's one of the things that we want to say today: that there are more bilingual gigs so that bands such as Candelas—. We've been working for 10 years now, and you could count on one or two hands how many times we've taken part in a gig with non-Welsh-speaking bands or bands from outside Wales. Perhaps we're to blame a little bit for that, that we've been lazy in that regard, but, still. The gigs that are put on tend to be just bands from Wales and Welsh-medium bands. If we want to sell what we have and to display the talent that we have, I think we need to have those mixed gigs in terms of Welsh-speaking and non-Welsh-speaking bands.  

10:50

Ocê. Does dim rhaid i chi ateb bob cwestiwn. Oes yna sylw arall gan unrhyw un arall? 

You don't all have to respond to every question. Are there any other comments from anyone else? 

Dwi'n meddwl weithiau bod cerddoriaeth Gymraeg yn cael ei defnyddio fel arf i hybu'r Gymraeg, sydd yn ffantastig, ond ei fod yn cael ei anghofio fel diwydiant ynddo fo'i hun. Felly, 'O, buasai'n neis cael band Cymraeg yn y digwyddiad yma i wneud bob dim yn Gymraeg', sy'n grêt, ond wedyn fel perfformwyr, mae'n anodd iawn gwneud gyrfa allan o hynny achos mae'r gynulleidfa wedyn yn eithaf cul. Yr un bobl ti'n gweld yn dy gigs di. Dwi ddim yn cwyno am hynny, ond weithiau mae—. Mae Y Cledrau wedi gwneud—yn union, gallwn gyfrif ar un llaw faint o gigs dwyieithog. Dwi'n cofio mynd i FOCUS Wales a chael bandiau newydd, cynulleidfa newydd, ac roedd hynny mor ffres ac iach. Mae eisiau mwy ohono fo, ynghyd â'r ochr uniaith Gymraeg. 

I do think that Welsh music is sometimes used as a tool to promote the Welsh language, which is fantastic, but it's forgotten as an industry. So, people say, 'Well, it would be good to have a Welsh band at this event and do everything in Welsh', which is great, but as performers, it's very difficult to make a career out of that because the audience is quite limited. It's the same people you see at your gigs. I'm not complaining about that, but Y Cledrau—we could count on one hand how many bilingual gigs we've been involved with. I remember being involved with FOCUS Wales with new bands, and that was so fresh and healthy. We need more of that, along with the Welsh gigs too. 

Mae trio gwneud hynny'n organig, hynny dŷn ni wedi ffeindio'n rhwystr: sut mae dod o hyd i'r gigs er mwyn gallu cymathu bandiau Cymraeg a di-Gymraeg. Y bandiau dŷn ni'n gwybod amdanyn nhw sydd wedi teithio dramor, yn aml iawn, mae yna nawdd y tu ôl iddyn nhw. Os dŷn ni'n edrych ar y teithiau mae Calan wedi'u gwneud dramor, neu HMS Morris, mae yna nawdd ac mae yna rywun wedi gorfod rhoi lot fawr o amser i ysgrifennu'r nawdd yna. Rydyn ni'n rhoi gymaint o'n hamser gwirfoddol i mewn i fod yn y bandiau, i redeg y labeli ac i drefnu gigs fel y mae, mae'n anodd iawn wedyn i ffeindio amser i wneud gwaith papur fel yna hefyd. 

Trying to do that in an organic manner we've found is a barrier: how we find those gigs to assimilate Welsh and non-Welsh-speaking bands. We know that bands that tour abroad, very often there is sponsorship behind them. The tours that Calan and HMS Morris have done, there is sponsorship and they have to prepare bids for that sponsorship. We put so much voluntary time into being in bands and arranging gigs that it's very difficult to find extra time to do that paperwork for those bids. 

Ocê, a jest cwestiwn olaf gen i cyn symud ymlaen yw: beth dŷch chi'n credu yw'r sefyllfa o ran y mathau gwahanol o leoliadau sy'n bodoli ar hyn o bryd? Oes yna ddigon o rai bach o gymharu efo rhai canolig eu maint i rai mawr sydd yn bodoli ar draws Cymru? Sut ydych chi'n credu bod hynny'n help i roi platfform i fandiau, neu ddim, os nad yw'r lleoliadau hynny'n bodoli fel ag oedden nhw nôl yn y dydd, fel maen nhw'n dweud? 

Okay, and just a final question from me before we move on. What do you think the situation is in terms of the kinds of venues that exist at the moment? Are there enough smaller venues as compared to medium-sized venues as compared to those major venues that exist across Wales? How do you think that helps in providing a platform to bands, or not, if those venues don't exist as they perhaps did back in the day, as they say? 

Mae'r strwythur yn hanfodol. Roedd Neal yn sôn am sut mae band yn gallu ffurfio. Maen nhw angen rhywle i chwarae, maen nhw angen lle i ymarfer, maen nhw angen cyfleon pan maen nhw'n ifanc. Dwi'n meddwl o ran canolfannau, beth dŷn ni wedi'i wneud ydy dŷn ni wedi cymryd canolfan 150 oed—dros Gymru, mae yna neuaddau pentref, on'd oes, a'r un fath sydd yna ym Methesda. Wedyn, dŷn ni wedi cael pres i ddatblygu'r adeilad i ffitio i mewn i fodel fwy cyfoes. Mae'n ganolfan gelfyddydol sy'n lot mwy o ganolfan gymunedol. Dwi'n meddwl bod cerddoriaeth yn gallu jest ffitio i mewn i ran o strwythur mwy.

Mae'n gweithio i ni; allaf i ddim siarad am lefydd eraill, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna lot o adeiladau dros Gymru sydd yn gallu cael eu datblygu. Doedd yna ddim byd cyn i ni agor chwe mlynedd yn ôl. Roeddwn i'n trefnu stwff yn y dafarn gyda nifer fach o bobl, a rŵan, dŷn ni'n trefnu gŵyl efo 1,500 i 2,000 o bobl. Mae gennym ni ddigwyddiadau cerddorol trwy'r amser. O le mae hynny wedi dod? Ac hefyd, dŷn ni'n agos i ganolfan fawr, fel Pontio, dydy Galeri ddim yn bell. Ond beth sy'n anhygoel ydy bod diwylliant yn gallu jest dod gan bobl. Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna neb wedi gwneud ymchwil dwys i weld a ydy'r galw yna, ond dŷch chi'n creu'r galw; dŷch chi jest yn cychwyn o. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod canolfannau yn gallu adfywio pentrefi, trefi a dinasoedd yng Nghymru.  

The structure is vital. Neal spoke about the way that a band can form. They need somewhere to play, they need somewhere to rehearse, and they need opportunities when they're young to perform. So, I think in terms of venues, what we've done is we've taken over a centre that's 150 years of age. All over Wales, there are village halls and it's the same in Bethesda. We've had funding to develop that venue to fit into a more contemporary model. It's an arts centre that is much more of a community centre as well. I think that music can just be part of a wider structure.

It works for us; I can't speak for other venues. I think that there are many such buildings across Wales that could be developed in that same way. There was nothing before we opened six years. I used to organise events in the pub with a small number of people, and now I'm organising a festival with 1,500 to 2,000 people. We have music events all the time. Where has that come from? We're very close to a large venue, Pontio, and Galeri isn't too far away, but what's incredible is that culture can come from people in a local area. I don't think we'd done any research into whether the demand was there, but you create demand; you just light the spark. So, I think venues can be a source of revival for towns, villages and cities in Wales.    

Grêt. A beth ydych chi'n meddwl? 

And what are your thoughts? 

Jest i egluro ein sefyllfa ni fan hyn yn y Bala, rhyw 10 mlynedd yn ôl, roeddem ni mewn ychydig bach o dir diffaith yn fan hyn o ran gigs oedd yn cael eu cynnal, felly mi wnaethom ni, fel pobl ifanc ar y pryd, fynd ati i drefnu gigs yn Neuadd Buddug yn y Bala. A thros y blynyddoedd, gwnaethon ni fedru denu cynulleidfaoedd cyson o tua 100 o bobl yn dod i bob gig. Unwaith eto, yn wirfoddol roedden ni'n rhedeg bob un o'r gigs yma, ac yn gwneud hynny heb feddwl ddwywaith. Yn ddiweddar, mae Cyngor Gwynedd wedi cau Neuadd Buddug ac wedi rhoi canolfan newydd i ni, ond mae'r neuadd yma yn rhan o'r ysgol uwchradd. Felly, rydym ni rŵan yn gorfod dechrau eto yn trio denu cynulleidfaoedd i leoliad newydd, a dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yr her yna yn cael ei chydnabod—sut mae newid patrwm cynulleidfa i ddod i le newydd. Mae o'n dipyn o her. Her rydym ni'n fodlon ymgymryd â hi, ond mae o'n heriol, a sut ydym ni'n mynd i ddenu pobl ifanc i ddod i'w neuadd ysgol i wylio bandiau? Unwaith eto, dwi ddim yn siŵr. Dyw hyn ddim ond newydd ddechrau rŵan, felly dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn beth fydd y canlyniad.

Ond rydym ni hefyd yn byw mewn ardal unigryw o ran bod pobl yn trefnu gigs mewn neuaddau pentref, a rydym ni wedi gweld llwyddiant mawr yn y rheini—unwaith eto, dros 100 o bobl, mae'n siŵr, yn dod i bob un. Ond, eto, mae'n rhaid pwysleisio, yn wirfoddol mae hyn i gyd yn digwydd. 

Just to explain our situation here in Bala, some 10 years ago, we were a desert in terms of the gigs that were being staged here, so we, as young people at the time, decided to organise gigs in Neuadd Buddug in Bala. And, over the years, we managed to attract audiences of around 100 people regularly coming to gigs. Once again, we were running all of these gigs on a voluntary basis and doing so without hesitation. Recently, Gwynedd Council has closed Neuadd Buddug and has provided a new centre for us, but this hall is part of the secondary school. So, we now have to start afresh in trying to attract an audience to a new venue, and I don't think that that challenge is recognised, in terms of how changing the audience habit coming to a new venue is a challenge. It's a challenge that we're willing to face, but it is challenging, and how can we attract young people to come to their school hall to watch a band? I'm not really sure how it's going to work. This has only just become an issue, so I'm not sure what the upshot of it will be. 

But we also live in a unique area in that people do organise gigs in village halls, and we've seen huge successes on that level—again, over 100 people coming to each of those gigs. But, again, I have to emphasise that this is all happening on a voluntary basis. 

10:55

Diolch. Mae hwnna'n ddiddorol iawn. 

Thank you. That's very interesting. 

Gwnes i drefnu fy ngig cyntaf yn Neuadd Ogwen, yn Neuadd Buddug, sori, yn y Bala, digwydd bod, ac mae'n bechod mawr bod y lle wedi cau.

I organised my first gig in Neuadd Buddug in Bala, as it happens, and it's a shame that the venue has closed. 

Ocê. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen felly, achos mae amser yn brin wrth gwrs, i gwestiynau am gymorth a chyngor gan John Griffiths. Diolch. 

We'll move on, therefore, because time is short. So, we'll move to questions on support and advice from John Griffiths. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Yes, in terms of general support and advice for live music in Wales, what are your views? Is there enough support and advice generally? Do we need a new agency? We once had the Welsh Music Foundation. Do we need something similar now?

Yn bersonol, doeddwn i ddim yn meddwl bod y Welsh Music Foundation yn gweithio yn dda i fi fel hyrwyddwr neu gerddor. Doedd o ddim yn gweithio i fi. Wnes i ddim teimlo bendith allan ohono fo. Dyw hynna ddim i ddweud bod o ddim wedi dod â bendith i bobl eraill, ond doeddwn i ddim yn teimlo—. Rôn i'n gwrando ar y sgwrs arall; mae'n amlwg bod angen strwythur. Beth dwi yn ffeindio'n anodd—. Dwi wedi cael cyngor gan bobl y tu allan i Gymru fel y Music Venue Trust, oherwydd bod y gefnogaeth yna ddim ar gael yng Nghymru. Ac maen nhw wedi bod yn dda iawn, chwarae teg; maen nhw'n cynnig cefnogaeth. Ond, ie, dwi'n meddwl bod angen rhywbeth. Dwi wedi bod yn trefnu digwyddiadau ers 30 mlynedd neu fwy, a dwi ddim yn gwybod lle i fynd ar ôl cyllid. Mae yna gymaint o bethau dwi yn gwybod, ond i wneud fy ngwaith, mae o'n strygl mawr i ffeindio gwybodaeth ynglŷn â—. Mae yna bobl yn dweud wrthyf i, 'Ti ddim yn gwybod hynna?' Wel, dydych chi ddim yn gallu gwybod bob dim, felly mae eisiau cyngor a rhannu gwybodaeth dwi'n meddwl. 

Personally, I didn't think that the Welsh Music Foundation worked particularly well for me as a promoter or as a musician. It didn't work for me. I didn't feel that I benefited from it. That isn't to say that it didn't benefit others, but I personally didn't feel any benefit. And I was listening to the earlier conversation; clearly, we need a structure. But what I find difficult is—. I've had advice from people from outside Wales, such as the Music Venue Trust, for example, because that support simply isn't available in Wales. And they've been very good to me to be fair; they do offer support. But I do think we need something. I've been organising events for 30 years or more, and I wouldn't know where to seek funding. There are a lot of things I do know, of course, but to do my work, it's a great struggle to actually find information. People tell me, 'Well, don't you know that?' Well, you can't know everything, can you, so you do need that advice, and we do need better information sharing. 

Un peth sy'n ofnadwy o ddefnyddiol i gymunedau bach ydy'r grant Noson Allan. Dwi ddim yn gwybod sawl gwaith rydym ni fel—[Anghlywadwy.]—a chi mae'n siŵr, pobl mewn band, wedi gorfod llenwi ffurflenni Noson Allan, gan mai nhw sy'n ariannu'r gig. Mae'n gynllun ffantastig, achos mae'n dangos mai nid er mwyn creu elw mae'r noson yn cael ei chynnal, ond er mwyn adloniant pur. Felly, mae'r grant yn cael ei roi er mwyn cyfro costiau'r bandiau, a gwneud yn siŵr bod bandiau'n cael tâl teg hefyd, ac maen nhw'n cael yr arian yn ôl yn y diwedd er mwyn cynnal y noson nesaf. Felly, mae o'n sicr yn rhywbeth sydd angen cael ei ddefnyddio yn amlach mewn mwy o gymunedau a lleoliadau. 

One resource that's very useful to small communities is the Night Out grant. I don't know how many times we—[Inaudible.]—and you, people in a band, have had to fill in the paperwork for Night Out, because they fund the gig. It's an excellent scheme, because it demonstrates that an evening isn't for profit; it's for pure entertainment. So, the grant is given to cover the costs of bands, and ensure that bands receive a fair wage for what they do, and then they get the money back at the end to hold the next event. So, it is something that should be used more often, in more communities. 

Mae'n andros o braf gweld bod PYST wedi penodi swyddog sydd yno'n uniongyrchol i drefnu gigs a threfnu teithiau. Eto, mae hyn yn ddyddiau cynnar, ond dwi yn gweld budd mawr yn hyn. Fel rhywun sy'n rhedeg label, mae un o'n bandiau ni rŵan, Yr Eira, wrthi'n trefnu taith, a diolch i PYST maen nhw'n gallu bod yno i wneud y gwaith na fedrwn ni rhoi'r amser i fewn i'w wneud, ac mae hyn yn andros o fuddiol.

Mae Clwb Ifor Bach hefyd yn arbennig o dda am gymryd bandiau dan eu haden a threfnu teithiau ar eu cyfer nhw. Buon ni yn ddiweddar fel band o'r enw Blodau Papur o gwmpas Cymru mewn gwahanol leoliadau, ond, eto, diolch i sefydliadau fel Clwb Ifor Bach a PYST mae hyn. Fel band, does gennym ni ddim mo'r amser.

It's wonderful to see that PYST have appointed an official who is there specifically to arrange gigs and tours. Again, it's in the early stages, but I do see huge benefits in this. As one who runs a label, one of our bands, Yr Eira, are arranging a tour, and thanks to PYST, they are there to do the work that we couldn't provide the time to do, and that is hugely beneficial to them.

Clwb Ifor Bach are also excellent at taking bands under their wing and organising tours for them. We recently toured as Blodau Papur around Wales at a number of venues, but it's thanks to organisations such as Clwb Ifor Bach and PYST. As a band, we simply don't have the time.

11:00

Yr unig beth y gwnaf i ei ddweud am Noson Allan, mae wedi bod yn system wych i bobl sy'n gwneud gwaith gwirfoddol, grass roots. Ond o ran datblygu diwydiant, a gwneud y diwydiant yn broffesiynol, mae o'n gymorth i bobl gychwyn i ffwrdd, ond dydy o ddim yn help i fynd i'r cam nesaf neu i greu diwylliant, yn ein barn ni. Ond nid i fynd yn erbyn beth ti'n ei ddweud na dim byd, ond ti'n gwybod beth dwi'n ei feddwl? I rywun fel fi, dydy o ddim o fudd.

The only thing I'd say about Night Out is that it has been an excellent system for people who do voluntary work on the grass-roots level. But in terms of developing an industry, and making it a professional industry, it's a help for people as they start out, but it doesn't help them to go to the next level or to create culture, in my view. But not to contradict anything you've said, but do you know what I mean? For someone like me, it's not beneficial.

Ie, i fi, o fewn y band, mae'n wych ac i gynnal nosweithiau mewn cymunedau, ond lle rydw i efo fy ngwaith o fewn yr Urdd yn trio trefnu gigs er mwyn codi arian ar gyfer eisteddfod, ac ati, wel, dydy o ddim o ddefnydd achos bod ti ddim yn cael elw allan ohono fo. Felly, mae o'n grêt ar y cychwyn, ond dydy o ddim yn gynaliadwy o gwbl.

Well, for me within the band, it's excellent, to stage things within communities, but in terms of my work with the Urdd, trying to arrange gigs in order to raise funds for an eisteddfod, for example, well, it's not of any use, because you can't make a profit from it. So it's great as a starting point, but it's not sustainable.

Okay. Well, diolch yn fawr. In terms of grass-roots venues then, in England the arts council have a capital fund. Hot off the press: Creative Wales is going to provide funding here in Wales. Do you have a view on whether it's more important to construct new venues, or is it more important to improve existing ones, and have you got any general views on the availability of, again, support and advice for that?

Mae'n anodd i fi feddwl yn global am y peth—am Gymru gyfan. Beth dwi'n ei wneud, mae unrhyw gefnogaeth yn anferth, a dweud y gwir; mae cefnogaeth fach yn gallu bod yn help anferth. Roeddwn i yn y cyfarfod ddoe efo Creative Wales. A maen nhw dim ond yn cynnig £5,000; mae £5,000 yn £5,000, ond mae hwnna'n anferth o beth i ni, i ddatblygu'r gwaith rydym ni'n ei wneud. Achos mae rhedeg venue, mae hi fwy neu lai yn amhosib gwneud elw. Felly, mae rhywbeth fel yna—. Ac os ydych chi'n gwneud elw, rydych chi'n gallu ei wario fo ar wella'r adeilad, prynu offer, ond dydyn ni ddim yn gallu gwneud hynna. Felly mae rhywbeth fel yna yn gallu bod yn help anferth. Yn bersonol, dwi'n meddwl bod potensial y £5,000 yna—neu lai, beth bynnag rydym ni'n gwneud cais amdano—yn gallu cael impact anferthol ar y ganolfan dwi'n gweithio ynddi.

It's difficult for me to think globally about this, in terms of the picture across Wales. But in terms of what I do, any support is of huge benefit; a small amount of support can have that much greater impact. I was there at the meeting yesterday with Creative Wales. And they're only offering £5,000; £5,000 is £5,000, but that's huge for us in terms of developing the work that we do. Because, running a venue, it's more or less impossible to make a profit. So, something like that—. And if you make a profit, you can spend it on improving the building, or buying equipment, but we can't do that at the moment. So something like that could be a huge help. Personally, I think that the potential of that £5,000—or less, or whatever amount we bid for—could have a huge impact on the venue that I work at.

Oes barn gyda chi ynglŷn â'r cynllun newydd y mae'r Llywodraeth wedi ei gyflwyno?

Do you have a view on this new scheme put forward by the Government?

Dydyn ni ddim yn clywed, sori.

Sorry, I couldn't quite hear that.

Did you want to make any comments, or provide any views to the committee on those matters?

Unwaith eto, jest i fanylu ar ein sefyllfa ni yn y Bala, roeddwn i'n sôn bod Neuadd Buddug wedi cau, a bod y cyngor wedi rhoi canolfan fwy neu lai newydd i ni, fel rhan o'r ysgol uwchradd. Dwi'n cael fy nghyflogi fel yr unig staff sy'n gweithio yn y ganolfan newydd—dim ond deuddydd yr wythnos—i wneud popeth. Ac mae meddwl am gael pot o bres fel £5,000 i £10,000 yn flynyddol, mi fyddai hynna yn sicrhau pethau mor syml â'n bod ni'n gallu darparu system sain ddigonol i greu gig deniadol, gig sydd yn werth dod i wrando arno fo, fyddai wedyn yn denu cynulleidfaoedd i ddod yn eu holau. Mi fyddai potiau cymharol fychan fel yna yn gallu mynd yn bell iawn, iawn mewn lleoliadau fel sydd gennym ni.

Once again, just to tell you about our situation in Bala, I mentioned that Neuadd Buddug had been closed down, and that the council had given us a new centre, as part of the secondary school. I'm employed as the only member of staff working in that centre—and that's only for two days a week—and that's to do everything. And thinking about having a pot of money, be it £5,000 or £10,000 annually, that would certainly ensure things as simple as providing a proper sound system to stage an attractive gig, a gig that would be worth coming to listen to, and that would then attract an audience and encourage an audience to return. So I think smaller pots, such as that, can be hugely beneficial in locations and venues such as ours.

Gaf i ddod i mewn yn fanna? Pe bai yna jest pot bach iawn o bres, dyweda £5,000, yn cael ei roi mewn ambell i safle ar draws gogledd Cymru a de Cymru, er mwyn gwneud fanna fel venue gigs, byddai o'n tynnu lot fawr o bwysau oddi ar drefnwyr a phobl sydd yn trefnu gig am y tro cyntaf, er enghraifft. Achos mae pobl weithiau yn gofyn i ni wneud gig, wedyn rydym ni'n gofyn, 'Oes gennych chi system PA?', wel does ganddyn nhw ddim syniad am beth rydym ni'n sôn. Felly mae o'n bwysau ar y band wedyn i ffeindio PA ac mae o'n ddrud. Pe bai'r PA yna mewn adeilad yn barod, mi fyddai o'n rhatach bob tro y byddai gig yn cael ei drefnu achos mae'n ddrud i hurio un allan. Felly, mi fyddai'n lot llai o stress, byddai gigs yn digwydd yn amlach, byddai'r cylch yn cael ei gychwyn wedyn.

Could I come in there? If there were just a small pot of funding, say £5,000, given to some venues, say, in north Wales and some in south Wales, to turn those places into gig venues, that would take a lot of pressure off promoters and people who are organising a gig for the first time, for example. Because people sometimes ask us to take part in a gig and then we ask, 'Do you have a PA system?', but they have no idea what we're talking about. So then there's pressure on the bands to find a PA system and they're expensive. So, if the PA was already there in the building, it would make it cheaper to arrange a gig every time because it's expensive to hire one. So, it would cause a lot less stress, gigs would happen more frequently, then that cycle could be started.

11:05

Okay, diolch. If we move on then to the Arts Council of Wales, how useful are the Arts Council of Wales to the live music industry in Wales, do you think? Obviously, they've got various funding streams and funding pots. Have they been useful to you? Are they useful to you?

I fod yn onest, maen nhw'n teimlo'n bell iawn o'n cyrraedd ni. Dwi wedi gwneud cais nawdd cyngor y celfyddydau o'r blaen ar gyfer prosiect theatr, ac maen nhw'n geisiadau cymhleth ac anodd, a dydyn nhw ddim yn hygyrch o gwbl yn fy marn i. Ac yn aml, efo nawdd cerddoriaeth a'r celfyddydau, mae'n rhaid i chi wneud rhywbeth yn ychwanegol i'r hyn rydych chi'n ei wneud yn barod. Ond beth am yr amser y mae'r bandiau'n ei roi i gyfansoddi, a'r amser maen nhw'n ei roi i mewn i ymarfer, a'r lleoliadau y maen nhw'n gorfod talu amdanyn nhw er mwyn cael gofod ymarfer? Beth am y pethau sylfaenol rydym ni eu hangen i greu sylfaen hollol gref i fandiau jest allu gwneud rhywbeth mor syml â mynd i recordio albwm? Dyw hynna ddim yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd, ac mae hynna'n bechod mawr.

To be honest, they feel out of our reach. I've made bids to the arts council for a theatre project in the past, and they're very complex and difficult processes and they wouldn't be accessible at all in my view. And often, with funding for music and the arts, you have to do something in addition to what you're already doing. But what about the time that the bands give to composition, and the time they give to rehearsal, and the venues that they have to pay for in terms of rehearsal space? What about those fundamentals that we need to create a firm foundation just for bands to do something as simple as record an album? They don't exist at the moment, and that's a huge shame.

Ie, dwi wedi gwneud tri chais ers i ni agor. Wnaethon ni ddim gwneud cais cyngor celfyddydau i gychwyn—roeddem ni eisiau treialu i weld a oedden ni'n gallu rhedeg heb nawdd, ac fe wnaethon ni lwyddo. Ond beth oedden ni'n ffeindio oedd, doedden ni ddim yn gallu datblygu'n gelfyddydol—roeddem ni'n ei redeg o mwy fel busnes. Felly, dyna le mae'r cyngor celfyddydau yn dod i mewn. Dwi'n gwybod ei fod o'n beth amlwg i'w ddweud, ond mae o'n wir: hebddo fo, rydych chi jest yn meddwl am y bottom line, i gynnal y ganolfan, ac nid yn unig, 'Ydy rhywbeth yn gelfyddydol? Allwn ni rhoi rhywbeth ymlaen?'

Yr unig beth fuaswn i'n ei ddweud, a dwi wedi bod yn meddwl am hyn ers tipyn: blwyddyn diwethaf fe wnaethon ni rhedeg 10 digwyddiad yn ystod y flwyddyn efo nawdd cyngor y celfyddydau. Roedd hwnna'n rhan fach o beth rydyn ni'n ei wneud yn y flwyddyn, ond roedd y rhain yn bethau lle roeddem ni'n gallu rhoi cerddoriaeth byd ymlaen, ac mae hynna'n golygu mwy o gostau o ran teithio a ballu—mae'r costau'n uwch—ac roedd o'n ffantastig. Yr unig beth dwi'n meddwl ydy, os ydyn ni eisiau hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg, dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn gyfle i roi clause i mewn i ddweud, os ydych chi'n rhoi hyn a hyn o ddigwyddiadau celfyddydol ymlaen, fod yna garfan ohonyn nhw'n gorfod bod yn y Gymraeg. Roeddem ni'n gorfod gwario'r pres yna ar gerddoriaeth oddi allan i Gymru—wel, doedden ni ddim yn gorfod gwneud, ond dyna pam roeddem ni wedi cael y pres. Pe baem ni wedi defnyddio'r pres hwnnw i roi cerddoriaeth o Gymru ymlaen, buasem ni wedi mynd yn erbyn y telerau roeddem ni wedi'u cael. Ac i fi, mae yna ychydig o bechod yn fanna, fy mod i'n gorfod bwcio bandiau fel Candelas, a llefydd fel yna, a rydym ni'n gorfod gwneud i hynna weithio'n hollol economaidd—rhaid iddo dalu am ei hun—ac ar hynny, rhaid inni ennill pres i dalu biliau, ond dwi'n gallu cael nawdd i roi rhywbeth o'r tu allan i Gymru ymlaen. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i gael un llinell lle mae'n dweud—. Buasai'n gallu bod yn nawdd ar wahân, nid i dalu am bethau, ond i gefnogi'r gallu i roi pethau ymlaen, fel ein bod ni'n gallu rhoi pethau ymlaen ddim i golli pres, achos dyna'r targed fel arfer. Dyw e ddim am chwalu pres cyhoeddus, ond ei ddefnyddio fo a chreu swyddi a bob dim o gwmpas hynny. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i wneud hynna.

Yes, I have made three bids since we opened. We didn't put forward a bid to the arts council at the beginning—we wanted to see whether we could run without sponsorship, and we succeeded. But what we did find was that we couldn't develop culturally—we were running it more as a business. So, that's where the arts council comes in. I know this is an obvious thing to say, but it's true: without it, you're just thinking about the bottom line all the time, to maintain the venue, and not just, 'Is this artistic? Could we put something on?'

One thing I would say, and I've been thinking about this for a while: last year, we ran 10 events during the year with sponsorship from the arts council. That was a small part of what we do during the year, but these were events where we could put on world music, and that means more costs in terms of travel and transport and so on—the costs are higher—and it was excellent. The only thing I think is that if we want to promote the Welsh language, I think it's an opportunity to include a clause to say that if you put on so many cultural events, a portion of them should be through the medium of Welsh. So, we had to spend that funding on music from outwith Wales—well, we didn't have to, but that's why we'd received the funding. If we'd used that funding to put on music from Wales, then we would have breached the terms and conditions of the grant that we'd received. And, in my opinion, that's a bit of a shame that I have to book bands such as Candelas and so on, and we have to make that work economically ourselves—it has to pay for itself—and then we have to make enough money to pay the bills, but I can receive sponsorship to put on something from outwith Wales. So, I think that there is room to have one funding stream where it says—. It could be separate funding, not to pay for things, but to support the ability to put on events, so that we can do that without making a loss, because that's the target usually. It's not about spending public money all over the shop; it's about using it to create jobs and everything that goes with that. I think there is space to do that.

Okay, a final question from me then: Dilwyn, you were at the launch of Creative Wales yesterday, I just wonder really, all of you, to what extent you feel that you had an involvement in Creative Wales in the run-up to the launch.

Wel, rydym ni wedi bod yn e-bostio yn ôl ac ymlaen, ac fe wnes i 'bump-io' i mewn i rywun yn Wrecsam ym mis Medi—rhywun sydd ddim yn Creative Wales dim mwy—a dechrau siarad am beth sydd wedi cael ei lansio ddoe. Dwi ddim yn teimlo fy mod i wedi bod yn rhan ohono fo, ond mi wnes i ddweud yn y sgyrsiau ym mis Medi ac ar e-bost pa mor positif dwi'n teimlo ydy hwnnw. Ac mae o'n llenwi gofod, dwi'n meddwl. Yn hanesyddol, buasai cyngor y celfyddydau wedi gallu helpu efo pethau fel yna. Dydyn nhw ddim yn gwneud dim mwy oherwydd, dydyn nhw ddim yn hoff o gefnogi'r math o beth y buaswn i'n gwneud cais amdano efo Creative Wales. So, dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n gam positif iawn, yn bersonol.

Well, we've been e-mailing back and forth, and I did bump into somebody in Wrexham in September—somebody who is no longer in Creative Wales—and we started to discuss what was launched yesterday. I don't feel that I've been part of it, but I did say during my conversations in September and in e-mails how positive I feel that is. And it does fill a void, I think. Historically, the arts council would have helped with things like that. They don't do that anymore, because they don't seem to want to support the kind of things that we could make bids for to Creative Wales. I think that's a positive step, personally.

11:10

Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yr un o'r tri ohonom ni'n gwybod am beth ddigwyddodd ddoe. Dim fel aelod o fand, fel rhywun sy'n rhedeg label, na rhywun sy'n rhedeg venue. Doedd neb yn gwybod dim byd amdano fo. 

I don't think the three of us know about what happened yesterday. Not as a member of a band, somebody who runs a label, or who runs a venue. We didn't know anything about it.

Ocê. Fe wnawn ni geisio sicrhau eich bod chi'n ffeindio mas a'ch bod chi'n cael yr wybodaeth. Un cwestiwn clou, achos fe wnes i ei ofyn i'r bobl gynt: mae yna syniad o ran lleoliadau, mae'r Music Venue Trust yn dweud y gallem ni gael perchnogaeth gyhoeddus o rai o'r lleoliadau, efallai pan mae'r busnes eisiau newid beth maen nhw'n gwneud fel nad ydyn nhw'n gwneud cerddoriaeth fyw, a fyddai yna scope i wneud hynny? Ydych chi'n cytuno y gallai hwnna ddigwydd fel rhyw fath o bolisi?

Okay. We will try and ensure that we provide that information for you. Just one brief question, because I did ask it to the previous panel: there's an idea in terms of venues, the Music Venue Trust says that we could have public ownership of some of those venues, perhaps when there's a change of use in what a business does so that they don't do live music, is there scope to do that? Do you agree that that could happen as a kind of policy?

Mae'n dibynnu sut buasai hynny'n digwydd. Dwi'n meddwl, pan gafodd Neuadd Ogwen ei datblygu—mae'r adeilad yn rhyw 150 oed. Roedd y cyngor methu aros i gael gwared ohono fo, dwi'n meddwl, a pasio fo ymlaen. Dwi'n meddwl mai £5 neu rywbeth oedd o'n gostio. Mae gen i ofnau ynglŷn â Cyngor Gwynedd yn benodol. Dwi'n teimlo bod Cyngor Gwynedd yn fwy o broblem nac o gefnogaeth i ni, yn sicr. Dyw hynny ddim ynglŷn â rhedeg canolfan, ond yn hanesyddol pan dwi wedi rhedeg gŵyliau y tu allan a ballu, dwi wedi gweld eu bod nhw'n llai cefnogol ac yn fwy o broblem, a'u bod nhw ddim yn ei weld o fel eu rôl nhw i gefnogi. Eu rôl nhw ydy trio 'dampen-io', bron iawn stopio, beth sy'n digwydd, o ran trwyddedu a phob dim.

It depends how that would happen. When Neuadd Ogwen was developed—the building is 150 years of age. The council couldn't wait to get rid of it, I think, and pass it on. I think it cost £5 or something. I have concerns about Gwynedd Council specifically. I feel that Gwynedd Council is more of a problem than a support to us. That's not about running a venue, but historically when I've run festivals and so on, I've seen that they are less supportive and more of a problem, and that they don't see it as being part of their role to support. They see their role as dampening, trying to stop what's happening, almost, in terms of licensing and so on.

Gwnawn ni ddod ymlaen at hynny.

We'll come on to that.

Anyway, wnâi stopio fan yna. 

Anyway, I'll stop there.

A oes barn clou gyda chi ynglŷn â'r cysyniad yma o roi rhywbeth i mewn i berchnogaeth gyhoeddus os oes bygythiad i'r lleoliad penodol hynny?

Do you have a quick view on this idea of putting venues in public ownership if there is a threat to any given venue?

Mi wnaeth yna ryw hanner sôn ddigwydd o ran Neuadd Buddug yn y Bala, bod hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd, ond mae'r gwaith sydd angen ei wneud ar yr adeilad—rydych chi'n siarad am gannoedd o filoedd, felly dydy o ddim yn realistig. Yn ôl at beth roeddem ni'n dweud cynt, rydym ni mewn sefyllfa unigryw yn ardal y Bala, lle mae pobl yn defnyddio neuaddau pentref ar gyfer gigs beth bynnag. Felly, mae o'n digwydd yn eithaf naturiol.

There was some talk about Neuadd Buddug, that that might happen, but the work that was required on the building—you're talking hundreds of thousands of pounds, so it wasn't realistic. As I said earlier, we're in a unique position in Bala, where people use village halls to stage gigs anyway. So, it is happening organically.

Ocê. Diolch am hynny. Symud ymlaen, felly, at Rhianon Passmore.

Okay. Thank you for that. Moving on now to Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Chair. So, first of all, if I can ask you these types of questions, in regard to the barriers that you've touched upon, do you feel that there's room across Wales for, in a sense, a supported studio recording network that would also have a resource, a bit like Anthem, in regard to a musical instrument bank, so you can have access to your owned or non-owned PA system, lighting rigs, staging? Would that be of any use in terms of where that could go?

That's assuming they know what Anthem is. Do you want to just explain?

In regard to there is a Government organisation that's been looking at setting up a fund that will actually grow in terms of its financial amounts and that will be able to then look at these types of projects moving forward. So, there's been talk about a musical instrument bank that could be shared and there's a difference of opinion around that, but in regard to that gap that you've talked about in setting up the Night Out scheme and having that and not being able to make a profit, the ability then to be able to develop what you're doing so that you can economically contribute and grow that musical industry across Wales. It's just a little question in regard to, 'Is that a barrier?'. You touched upon that at the beginning. I don't know if there's any comment around that. Would that be of any assistance or not? 

Dwi'n meddwl yn bendant y buasai hwnna'n help mawr. Rhywbeth sy'n helpu pobl sy'n trefnu gigs, rhyw blatfform neu rhywbeth i bobl sy'n trefnu gigs am y tro cyntaf, achos does dim byd allan yna i helpu pobl i ddweud wrthyn nhw sut i roi gig ymlaen a beth rydych chi ei angen. Buasai rhywbeth fel yna, dwi'n meddwl, yn help mawr, lle mae pobl yn gallu cael access i systemau sain, golau, llwyfan, neu o leiaf bod yna help yno lle ti'n gallu arwain pobl i wybod lle i gael y pethau yma.

I think that would certainly be a great help. Anything that helps people who organise gigs, perhaps there could be a platform for people who are organising gigs for the first time, because there's nothing out there to tell them how to run a gig and what you need. I think it would be of great assistance, where people could have access to sound systems, lights, stages, or at least that there's help there so that people know where to go to get the assistance that they need.

Yr unig beth fyddai angen bod yn wyliadwrus ohono ydy eich bod chi ddim yn mynd â busnes oddi wrth y cwmnïau rydym ni'n trio eu cefnogi o gwmpas gogledd Cymru sydd yn gwneud eu bywoliaeth o gynnig sain a goleuadau mewn digwyddiadau, sydd hefyd yn faes annatod o'r byd cerddoriaeth fyw. 

The only thing you need to be mindful of is that you don't take business from the companies that we're trying to support across Wales that do make their living by providing sound systems and lighting, which is also of course an integral part of live music.

11:15

Yes, absolutely. So, it would be about supporting that and potentially saying, 'Here's help with that.' Anyway, I'll put that to one side, because it's not on my question list. But in terms of the barriers that you've discussed, I think it is relevant. In regard to outside of the physical barriers, are there any other barriers that you would very briefly highlight in regard to being able to work in the contemporary music scene across Wales? I know that's big question, but if you could just be brief.

Rhaid cydnabod y toriadau mewn gwerthiant albums, a oedd fel arfer yn rhoi'r arian a'r elw i fandiau fynd yn ôl i mewn i stiwdio i recordio. Dydy o ddim yn bodoli ddim mwy. Mae gwerthiant hanner, os nad llai, beth oedd o arfer bod rhyw bum mlynedd yn ôl. Ac yn amlwg, fel rydych chi'n gwybod, mae'r taliadau sy'n dod o Spotify ac iTunes ac yn y blaen y nesaf peth i ddim. So, mae hynny yn broblem. Mae bandiau'n gorfod mynd i mewn i'r pres y maen nhw'n cael am chwarae gigs i dalu eu hunain, o'u cyflog eu hunain, i fynd yn ôl i mewn i stiwdio. Mae hynny'n broblem. Dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn sut i ddelio â hynny.

We have to acknowledge the cuts in terms of royalties from albums, which usually provide the funds for bands to go back into the studio. That doesn't exist anymore. Sales are less than half of what they used to be five years ago. And the payments that come from Spotify and iTunes, as you know,  are next to nothing. So, that's a problem. Bands have to use their own funds from playing gigs to pay for their studio time. That's a problem. I'm not sure how to solve that. 

Is there anything else that you wanted to add on that point?

Dwi'n cytuno efo hynny fel cerddor. Fel canolfan, un o'r pethau mwyaf sydd wedi'n taro ni yn y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf ydy Brexit. Mae wedi amharu. Rydyn ni wedi cael dau artist rydyn ni wedi'u bwcio, ac wedyn rydyn ni wedi gorfod canslo oherwydd dydyn nhw ddim wedi cael eu visas. Felly, mae hynny wedi amharu arnom ni. Dydy o ond yn cymryd un gig. Oherwydd ein bod ni'n mynd o fis i fis i dalu biliau, os wyt ti'n cael un broblem fel yna, ti'n gallu bod mewn trwbl. Felly, mae hynny yn sefyll allan.

I agree with that as a musician. As a venue, one of the biggest things that's hit us in the past two years is Brexit. It's had an impact. We've had two artists that we've booked, and then we've had to cancel because they hadn't got their visas. So, that's had an impact on us. And it only takes one gig. Because we work from one month to the next in terms of paying our bills, and if you have problem like that, then you can be in deep trouble. So, that does stand out.

That's a very big issue, and it's something that I think we've touched on previously in this committee.

Gwell peidio â mynd i fan yna, ond mae'n wir.

Better not to go there, but it's true.

It's absolutely relevant in terms of the difficulties that are being faced.

In regard then to—. I'm going to move on to the talent pipeline, because we're talking very much about having that venue and then the talent will come forth to that venue. Obviously, if there's a diminution in the skills that are necessary to work in this particular industry, then it's going to be more difficult. So, have you got any concerns, in particular I suppose, in relation to cuts that are happening around music support services? Or is it not relevant to you at all? 

Rydyn ni wedi bod yn trio llenwi'r gofod sydd wedi cael ei adael o addysg. Rydyn ni'n cynnal sesiynau drwms, gitâr, rap, bâs, piano a canu i gael pobl ifanc i mewn i gael y profiadau hynny—plant o saith oed i fyny. Mae hynny'n wendid.

Ond rhywbeth arall ydy clybiau ieuenctid, achos dwi'n cofio, dwy flynedd yn ôl, ro'n i'n cael cyfarfod efo Gruff Rhys achos dwi'n trefnu gŵyl efo fo, ac roedd o'n dweud, 'Brilliant eich bod chi'n dechrau gwneud y gwersi yma, oherwydd wnes i ddechrau gwneud cerddoriaeth yn y clwb ieuenctid, yn chwarae drwms yn y clwb ieuenctid.' So, dyna oedd ei fan cychwyn o. Dyw hynny ddim yn bodoli dim mwy. Mae o wedi mynd.

Mae'n bwysig cael y bâs yna. Rydyn ni'n trio rhoi cyfle i bobl ifanc 16 oed berfformio efo artistiaid adnabyddus a rhyngwladol. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n hanfodol i agor eu gorwelion nhw a rhoi'r cyfleon cyntaf yna iddyn nhw.

We've been trying to fill the space that's been left in terms of education. We hold drum sessions, guitar sessions, rap sessions, bass, piano and singing to get young people in to have those experiences—children from the age of seven up. Because that is a weakness.

But another thing is youth clubs, because I remember two years ago, I had a meeting with Gruff Rhys because I arrange a festival with him, and he was saying, 'It's brilliant that you're starting to have these lessons, because I started music in a youth club, playing drums in a youth club.' So, that was his starting point. That doesn't exist any more. It's gone.

So, it is important to have that foundation. We try to provide opportunities for young people at the age of 16 to perform with recognised and international artists. I think that expands their horizons and gives them that first opportunity.

Have you any comment on that in terms of the talent pipeline? Not necessarily where you are now; you've expressed that you feel that there is a lot going on. In regard to what's coming next, have you any issue or concern, or do you feel that it's all rosy in the garden?

Efo fy ngwaith i efo'r Urdd, dwi'n gwneud dipyn o weithdai cyfansoddi. Dwi wedi bod yn mynd rownd ysgolion, dwi wedi bod yn gofyn i Osian ac aelodau eraill o'r Cledrau i ddod, i wneud gweithdai ysgolion. Mae'r talent yn yr ysgolion, mae o yno. Mae'r bobl ifanc eisiau bod mewn band. Ond dwi'n sylwi bod yr adnoddau sydd gan ysgolion yn drychinebus. Dwi'n mynd i ystafell drwms mewn un ysgol, ac maen nhw'n disgyn yn ddarnau. Felly, does gan yr ysgol ddim arian er mwyn cael offer da. Ond dwi'n meddwl petasai ganddyn nhw, petasai yna bot bach o bres yn cael ei roi i adrannau cerdd ysgolion, buasai yna bobl yn mynd—. Pan dwi mewn ysgolion, dwi'n gweld pobl amser cinio, ar ôl ysgol, neu hyd yn oed cyn ysgol, mewn un safle, yn mynd i jamio a dysgu crefft. Achos yn yr ysgol, mwy neu lai, wnaethon ni gychwyn, ac yn yr ysgol gwnaethoch chi gychwyn. Os nad ydy'r offer yna, dydyn nhw ddim am ddysgu eu crefft, a dydyn nhw ddim am brynu'r drwms a mynd ati ar ôl gadael ysgol wedyn.

In terms of my work with the Urdd, I do stage workshops on composition. I've been around schools, with Osian and other musicians from Y Cledrau, working on those workshops. There is the talent available within schools. Young people do want to be in bands. But I have noticed that the resources available in schools are disastrous. You have a drums room in one school, and they're falling apart. The school simply doesn't have the funds in order to have that proper equipment in place. But if they did, if there was a small pot of money available, provided to music departments in schools, then there would be people who go in—. When I'm schools, I see people there at lunchtime, after school, or even before school on one site, going in to jam and to play and just to learn. Because we started in school, and you started in school. But if that equipment isn't there, they're not going to learn their craft, they're not going to then go on to buy the drums and continue after they've left school.

11:20

Gallaf i ond ategu pa mor bwysig ydy'r gweithdai yma i gyd, a'r gwersi sy'n digwydd ar ôl ysgol. Dwi wedi gwneud llwyth o weithdai i lot o gwmnïau tebyg i Galeri—maen nhw efo'u system Marathon Roc i bobl ifanc, sydd yn rhoi wythnos dros yr haf i ddysgu offerynnau ac ysgrifennu caneuon. Gallaf i ond ategu pa mor bwysig ydy'r rhain. Gall y pethau yma ddim diflannu. Mae'n rhaid i bethau fel yma ddigwydd ym mhob ardal, dwi'n meddwl.

I can only echo how important these workshops are, and the lessons that do happen after schools. I've done a great many workshops for companies similar to Galeri—they provide a Marathon Roc course on rock for young people, it's a week over the summer to write songs and play instruments. I can only add how important these opportunities are. They shouldn't disappear. These things have to be provided in every area.

In regard to the comment that you made at the beginning, in terms of the demise of the centre that you used to play within, and now you're actually in a school hall—it's not exactly the best environment, but it does happen, and has always happened—many twenty-first century schools have state-of-the-art recording studios. I don't know what's at your end, but in that dearth or difficulty around recording studios, do you think that there's any mileage in being able to better access community schools in that regard, for the recording studio aspect? Would it be welcome or not?

Dwi'n meddwl y byddai. Yn ein hysgol ni, doedd yna ddim cyfrifiadur digon cryf i feddwl am recordio, heb sôn am stiwdio recordio. Felly, os byddai yna ryw offer fel yna yn lleol, dwi'n meddwl y byddai o fudd mawr i fandiau bach yn yr ysgol.

I think it would be. In our school, there wasn't a computer strong enough to think about recording, never mind a recording studio. So, if there was that equipment available locally, I think it would be of huge benefit to school bands.

So, it comes back to knowledge of what's there. It comes back to an interface of knowing who to go to to be able to co-ordinate what's out there in that regard. So, would you be supportive of that type of interface, moving forward, so that you would know where to go to, and you would know where to go to, to get this type of advice and information? Because it could be on your doorstep and you don't know.

Dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n syniad da. Beth dwi'n gweld sy'n gweithio ydy unrhyw ofod sy'n gallu cael ei ddefnyddio i lawer o bethau—i ymarfer, recordio, datblygu a gwersi—dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n bwysig meddwl fel yna, achos beth ti ddim eisiau gwneud ydy creu rhywbeth sydd jest yn wag yn un lle, a gallai fod yn gweithio yn rhywle arall.

Yn bersonol, o fy mhrofiad i, beth dwi'n gweld sy'n gallu gweithio ydy ein bod ni'n creu canolfannau sy'n agored i beth sy'n dod mewn iddyn nhw. Gallai fod beth sy'n dod mewn iddyn nhw yn wahanol iawn i beth oeddech chi wedi meddwl yn y cychwyn. Dŷch chi angen cynllun, wrth gwrs, ond mae'n bwysig bod llefydd yn agored. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n syniad da, ond mae eisiau bod yn ofalus wrth wario pres, onid oes? 

I do think it's a good idea. What I see that works is if there is a space available that can be multi-purpose—for rehearsal, recording, development and providing lessons—I think it's important to think along those lines, because what we don't want to do is to create something that's empty in one place, and could work with another use.

What I see that works is that we create these centres that are open and available to what comes into them. What comes into them may be very different to what you had anticipated initially. You need a plan, of course, but it's important that these places are open to new things. So, I think it's a good idea, but we need to be guarded as to how we spend the money.

It would have to be a careful balance of how we support what's already there. I think the point is: if you've got that type of facility that's already there, how is that being supported within a wider sphere? Okay, thank you.

In regard then to—we talked about the availability of rehearsal space briefly earlier on, so I don't know whether you want to add anything to that, but I think you've eloquently outlined what you feel around that particular point.

Opportunities for non-musical professions and promoters and sound technicians—we did touch upon this earlier, and you also referenced this, in terms of how important that is. What sort of support could be offered, in terms of that type of field of work within contemporary music in Wales?

Yn y gorffennol, mi wnes i ddefnyddio scheme o'r enw Jobs Growth Wales i ddod â dau berson ifanc i mewn. Mae'r ddau berson ifanc yna rŵan yn gweithio yn y diwydiant; ddim efo ni, yn anffodus, ond maen nhw wedi mynd ymlaen i gael swyddi llawn amser yn y diwydiant, mewn marchnata a technegol. Mae hynny'n bositif. Mae'r scheme yna wedi newid, a dydy o ddim yn—. Mae angen lot mwy na chwe mis hefyd. O ran ni, lle dwi'n 'struggle-io' yw does gen i ddim staff. Mi fyddai'n ormod o risg dod â rhywun ifanc i mewn a'u bod nhw'n gadael ar ôl blwyddyn, neu ein bod ni'n gorfod talu eu cyflog nhw a'u hyfforddi nhw. Gallwn ni jest ddim fforddio ei wneud o. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, os ydyn ni eisiau cael pobl ifanc mewn i'r diwydiant—maen nhw eisiau swyddi ac mae o'n gyfle i ddatblygu sgiliau a datblygu canolfannau.

In the past, I used a scheme called Jobs Growth Wales to bring in two young people. Those two young people now work in the industry; not with us, unfortunately, but they have gone on to get full-time jobs in the industry, in marketing and technical aspects. That's very positive. But that scheme's changed, and it doesn't—. We need much longer than six months as well. So, from my point of view, where I struggle is that I have no staff. It would be too much of a risk to bring in a young person and they would leave after a year, or that we would have to pay a wage and train them. We couldn't afford to do that. So, if we want to get young people into the industry—they want jobs and it's an opportunity to develop skills and to develop venues.

11:25

Ie. Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n—.

Yes. I think—.

Is there anything you wanted to add to any of the issues that have been raised in this topic?

Rwyt ti newydd ei godi o, Dilwyn. Dim cynlluniau chwe mis. Dydy o ddim yn rhywbeth cynaliadwy o gwbl. Mi wnaeth Maes B drio gwneud teithiau i ysgolion hynod effeithiol lle roedden nhw'n dod â band i ysgol, ond nid yn unig hynny, roedden nhw'n rhoi hyfforddiant i bobl ifanc ar sut mae addurno ystafell ar gyfer gig a'i gwneud hi'n ddeniadol. Roedden nhw'n rhoi gwersi i bobl ifanc ar  sut mae mynd ati i drefnu gigs eich hunan. Roedd y model yna'n ffantastig, so dwi'n meddwl petasai yna fwy o gyllid i gefnogi'r daith yma'n fwy na dim ond un ymweliad i ysgol, a'i gweld hi drwodd, er mwyn gweld bandiau ysgol yn cael eu datblygu, neu hyrwyddwyr ifanc yn cael eu datblygu. Mae hynny'n rhoi yr isadeiledd sydd angen wedyn i gael sîn iach o ran yr hyrwyddwyr a'r cerddorion.

I think you've touched on this, Dilwyn. The six-month schemes are not sustainable. Maes B arranged a tour of schools, which was very effective, where they'd bring a band into a school, but not only that, they'd also train young people as to how to prepare a room and how to market. They gave young people lessons as to how to arrange their own gigs. That model was superb, and I think if we could have more funding to support that kind of approach and that kind of tour, rather than having just the one visit to a school, and we see it through, to see schools being developed and young promoters being developed within schools. That provides you with the infrastructure you need then in order to have a healthy scene in terms of promoters and musicians.

Okay, we have to move on, sorry, Rhianon, to David Melding. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We've heard from quite a lot of witnesses that issues relating to planning, business rates and licensing can have a real effect on small venues in particular, and I just wondered what your views may be on this. Perhaps, Dilwyn, you could start. You did, I think, briefly allude to this earlier.

Yes. Licensing has been an issue for us, because when the building was developed, I think it was ignored that the building was fully soundproof, and that's created a problem with one neighbour in particular. But as somebody said in the last session, one person complaining has a lot of power when they communicate with the council. So, that's been a massive issue and we have a licence till 12, but we actually finish live music at 11. Because the council, they haven't been very clear, but they've been ambiguous, saying, 'The law changes after 11, and although you've got a licence, it may be better that you finish at 11.' And that's affected our business, because people leave at 11; the music stops, so people leave, so that's an hour of less income, which is a lot, and it's put us in a precarious place.

Sori, dwi wedi troi i'r Saesneg—dwi ddim yn gwybod pam, doeddwn i ddim hyd yn oed yn meddwl. Roeddwn i jest yn ateb dy gwestiwn di. Ie, felly, o ran trwyddedu, mae hwnna wedi bod yn issue i ni, a hefyd sut mae'r cyngor lleol wedi delio â fo. Dydy o ddim am y cyngor; mae am unigolion mewn un adran, ac maen nhw'n gwneud eu gwaith. Maen nhw'n gwneud eu gwaith—maen nhw'n cael cwyn a maen nhw'n delio â fo, ond mae o wedi bod yn boendod ac yn straen, ac mae'n stress; mae'n o'n stress mawr gorfod delio â hynny.

Dŷch chi'n rhedeg canolfan er bendith cymuned, ac os oes yna un person ddim yn hapus, dŷch chi'n teimlo eich bod chi ddim yn gwneud eich gwaith, felly rydyn ni'n trio gwneud rhywbeth am y peth, rŵan. Rydyn ni'n trio gwneud ceisiadau grant i drio gweld os allwn ni wneud y gwaith ond mae o'n anodd iawn. Mae o'n juggle. Dwi byth yn gweld cerddoriaeth yn y venue. Dwi'n rhedeg o gwmpas efo monitors ac yn ysgrifennu pethau lawr, a dyna dwi'n ei wneud yn ystod gig, felly. 

Sorry, I've turned to English—I'm not quite sure why, I wasn't even thinking; I was just answering your question. So, in terms of licensing, that's been an issue for us and also, how the council has dealt with it. It's not about the council; it's about individuals in one department, and they're doing their jobs, of course. They get a complaint and they deal with it, but it has been a real stress; it's a huge source of stress having to deal with all of that.

You're running a centre for the benefit of the community, and if one person isn't happy, then you feel that you're not doing your work properly. So we're trying to do something about it now. We're making some grant applications to try and see if we can do that necessary work, but it's hugely difficult. It's a real juggle. I never see music being played. I run around with monitors , writing things down—that's what I do during gigs.

I wonder if our witnesses up in Bala have anything to say. I'm interested in, you know, if you're using the school for performances, whether that has planning issues, or anything.

Dim ar hyn o bryd, a bob tro dŷn ni'n trefnu digwyddiadau mewn neuaddau, dŷn ni jest yn cael trwydded dros dro, felly dŷn ni heb ddod ar draws y broblem yma eto. 

Not at the moment, and every time we arrange events in halls, we just receive a temporary licence, so we haven't come across these problems yet.

So is that a positive? Do you find the council is actually there to help you through some of some of these hoops?

Ie, ar hyn o bryd, mae'r profiad o ran trwyddedu wedi bod yn iawn, wedi bod yn gadarnhaol, ond rydan ni ond wedi agor ers mis Medi.

Yes, and at the moment, the experience in terms of licensing has been positive, but we only just opened in September.