National Assembly for Wales

Jason, do you want to maybe be more specific?

Diolch, Weinidog. Just on Fusion, I guess, we are shortly putting some advice up to the Minister on where we go next with Fusion. We've been reviewing it over the last 12 months, so there's a detailed report that's going up to the Minister. I think the early indications are that it's been really successful, but we don't want to pre-empt what that report says, but we will be coming out with a statement at the right time, once the Minister's been able to review that.

Do you want to add anything to that?

If I could. I'd refer to them all as business cases as well. So, obviously, there were allocations within the budget deal that was done for both the projects, but we've, obviously, got to do all the due diligence work in the background to still make sure that they stack up on a value-for-money basis. So, what we expect to see is that the two business cases will be with us this summer. But there's a lot of momentum that the Minister's outlined there, and the reason that you don't see them on the face of the budget is because they will be published in the supplementary budget. But we have made this allocation within our overall revenue budget to take forward the next feasible—[Inaudible.]. So, it's all going ahead.

Okay, that's good. I just think there's a lot of interest in this, so I just want you to understand that. And I appreciate the work is under way, it's just that we're very keen to hear of progress. So, that really helps. Thank you very much.

Yes, in terms of the capital maintenance issues, there are very significant capital maintenance issues at the museums, and I think the figure that Neil is referring to—£50 million—is across their sites across Wales. I think we've made good progress in recent years on this. We have allocated some £5 million over the last two or three years, and you'll see now, of course, the museum in Cathays Park has scaffolding all around it and there's work going ahead. By allocating an additional £2.5 million in capital maintenance for them for the next financial year, it means that they're able to press ahead and do additional work on that building whilst the scaffolding's in place and to address other priorities. But I envisage that they will need capital maintenance funding over a period of years, and there needs to be a programme of work to address all of these issues.

Does that include disabled access as well?

Yes, there are issues at the front of the building in Cathays Park.

That includes that. They raised that with us when we had—

We're looking at a ramp arrangement—they're looking at that at the moment—and there are issues about the lifts in the building, so that's very much—. Because they have the certainty of that funding for next year, they're looking to advance plans on the lifts et cetera to address those points.

Yes, so you're giving £50 million to the entire estate—that's correct. One of the things that they also said to us at St Fagans was that there are two buildings that are closed at the moment and may remain closed permanently in the future—something that I suspect we all need to avoid.

What was closed, sorry?

One of the issues that Neil Wicks raised with us was that he said that there are two historic buildings that are closed at the moment in St Fagans and they may remain permanently closed—obviously, something we want to avoid.

That's absolutely right, and it is about giving them enough money so they can address these issues. I think there are also capacity issues as to how much they can do in any particular year, but we're in regular discussions with the museums to try and give them the money they need to address the issues.

Just to add, we do recognise the position that the museum has set out there. I think there are two elements to it—not just the capital challenge that they've got in terms of the maintenance backlog that they have, but if you took those two sites as an example, at St Fagans, were they to bring those back online, then that would also, likely, bring up an additional revenue cost to operate them as well. So, it is a real challenge that they face there—we do recognise it.

They have had, versus recent years, a really good settlement in terms of capital maintenance this year. They seem pleased with the direction that it's going in, but we do recognise the overall scale of the challenge that they face.

Okay, thanks for that. Let me move on, then, to the issue of the commercial director of the museum. The museum has said that the principal reason for being unable to recruit a commercial director was the salary level. Is it the case that this is a financial issue, or is it a structural issue in terms of the band that the person would be appointed within—that they have to be on a particular scale of pay scale, and, because of that, that's acting as a deterrent to potential candidates? Is it financial or structural, or is it both?

I think it's both—it's both. This is not unusual, of course, in the public sector, as you will know well, in the attempt to secure people, whether it be at higher education or what is a similar level of position here, especially when it involves the skill set that was expected of somebody in this position. Where we are at now is that it was agreed—we agreed with them—that the starting salary should be increased to £95,000, rising to £100,000 after 12 months. The role was advertised in November and I believe interviews are about to take place, so I am hoping and praying. Is that where we are?

I've not heard prayer used before by any Minister, I have to say. [Laughter.]

There was a structural issue, in that the framework agreement that sits between Welsh Government and our arm's-length bodies—. So, specifically with the national museum, were they to seek to appoint a director at a certain salary threshold, that would have been a consent measure that they came to the Welsh Government for, because they couldn't just do it themselves, so they did that. We went back to them and agreed to that, and then they started the recruitment process. So, we've sorted out the structural stuff. Whether they can afford it is an executive decision for the museum.

Sorry, Carwyn, David Melding wants to come in on that.

Sorry, Carwyn, you were pressing this point, but the order of magnitude—£95,000, did you say, up to £100,000? But you're talking £300,000 to £500,000 is probably what you need to pay at a market rate for a commercial director—something around twice the salary of the director, and this is a challenge that institutions face all around the world. I know it seems weird, but that's the position, and unless they can move on that basis, it's not going to happen, is it?

Well, I'm not prepared to comment any further in my position, because we're at sensitive times, as I indicated in possibly making an appointment, but there are people who want to do this kind of work because they have a great affection for the institution, and, clearly, you will know that the new president has been very active in trying to ensure that we have quality personnel, especially in this commercial area, and I'm very hopeful that there can be a result. 

But if you appoint someone partly through vocational commitment, that's hardly a sustainable position, is it? I mean, as I said, internationally, this is a problem that, basically, has been confronting heritage institutions, and the ones that have really succeeded, in commercial terms, in maximising that level market are paying something like a market rate, because year-in, year-out, that's what you're going to have to do, otherwise you're in this incredible process of trying to recruit someone with the commitment of heart to do it rather than predominantly a professional desire.

I think you can have both. There are individuals who have both, and that's the kind of person that I'm hoping will be appointed. But I can't say any more.

Jason Thomas.

Just very quickly to add that no national museum UK director gets anywhere near the salary figure you set out there. The highest paid UK national museum director, including bonuses, would be on around £200,000—that's the absolute max. And commercial director-type posts in Wales, it's a wider issue, obviously, but have been around that level. And we know that there's a very strong field this time, so we think the museum will get an exceptional candidate.

John Griffiths, briefly—sorry, Carwyn, they're all jumping in now. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I just wonder what thought has been given to creating a wider role for a commercial director across more than one organisation in our public sector in Wales, and perhaps more specifically in the heritage and cultural sector, or even, perhaps, co-operating more with other organisations. I think the National Trust, for example, has a very strong record in terms of generating commercial income, and I just wonder if we're thinking left-field enough in terms of these matters. 

I am not a fan of—what shall I say—creating new structural relationships? I believe very strongly in partnership between existing bodies. Now, obviously, I've been involved with the National Trust before I was in this post and, obviously, I'm aware and I have experience in the national library and other organisations, but I think it's important for the national museum and galleries, in particular in its international importance as a flagship for Welsh culture—and the same thing applies to Cadw within the heritage conservation area—I want to maintain the management integrity of these organisations so that they're able, in a sense, to compete with each other in terms of their performance. Because I think that is what drives heritage in Wales, especially these days, there's such massive interest in Welsh heritage at the moment and to make sure that that continues to be encouraged is to make sure that these organisations retain as much autonomy as possible. Although, obviously, working in partnership on particular projects and on activities where there is synergy.

So, I agree in terms of the importance of collaboration, but I'd be very reluctant to—. Well, it's not my job anyway to interfere with the autonomy of the president and trustees of the national museum, and, of course, I wouldn't dare go near the National Trust in that way.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I don't want to give evidence to the committee, but one thing, just to answer David's point, the public sector's never been able to compete with the private sector on salary. Part of the problem is, first of all, the financial element and the effect on other areas of Government where people feel that they should get the same money. Secondly, of course, people are often put off by the idea of having their salary on the front page of the paper through a freedom of information request. That's often a deterrent. It's a matter now for the museum to move forward on that.

Do you want to add anything?

Diolch, Weinidog. Just to say that we were ready to go ahead of that 12-month deadline. We had a venue booked, the speakers there, everything lined up, and then we did have to—

It was going to be a big party—

It was going to be. It was going to be a very creative sector party, but we had to pull that because of the general election. So, everything's now ready for 29 January.

As the Minister said, there's been a lot of work going on over that period, if I could just touch on that. So, we've had to do a lot of internal work. So, Creative Wales will remain within the Welsh Government. It will have a similar kind of feel to it, I guess, organisationally, as Cadw and Visit Wales. It will be very outward facing, but will still remain a division of the Welsh Government. So, over the last couple of months, we've actually been restructuring the current team that have been working on the creative sector into what will become Creative Wales. So, we've gone through that process over the last couple of months. Existing staff have been matched into roles. Gerwyn's been appointed as the deputy director, effectively, the chief executive.

What will become more clear on 29 January is that we will, obviously, be broadening the scope of the services that we provide. We will be doing additional things as a consequence of creating Creative Wales, and that is going to require some additional resource to go into the organisation. So, the next step will be, from January, trying to populate the remaining posts that exist then. We've got to do that through the existing civil service recruitment principles. So, there has genuinely been a lot of progress behind this, and we're all gearing up now for 29 January.

The budget that's laid out there is the Welsh Government bit of the Creative Wales pot that we've got for the next financial year. There are other considerations in terms of match funding that comes into projects, a whole range of other sources of funding to support the creative sector in Wales, and also, this is a one-year budget. I think when we were talking about Creative Wales last year we were talking about it over the longer term. So we are, as officials, in terms of support for the sector, very pleased with the allocation that we've got for next year. We believe that will allow us to implement Creative Wales and make really good progress. Huw, I don't know if you want to come in.

So that extra funding—. You mentioned earlier that you think it still needs that extra funding, what would that look like, and what would that feel like in terms of how that would be able to be widened?

I guess for a standard sort of—. So, if you look at the film and tv sector, if you were looking at a new production coming into Wales, it wouldn't just be a Welsh Government contribution going into landing that production; it could be a range of sources, from local authority, private equity, to other things. So, I think it's just important when we think of the budget for Creative Wales we don't just think of it in terms of the Welsh Government bit of it, because it's a massive sector—it's around 10 per cent of GDP in Wales, it's absolutely enormous. So it's broader than that. But that was just our figure for the budget. We're happy, I think, with it.

Okay, so £7.7 million from Welsh Government and the rest made up in other ways, and realistically you think that would be £30 million.

Over a period of five years.

For Creative Wales, we've said—more will become clear on 29 January, but we're trying to frame it in a five-year window. And again, it's important to stress, I think, that the sector's doing really well at the moment, and the level of money that's in there for the next financial year is not dissimilar from the level of money that we've had to put in to grow film and tv over the last five years. So we've got a really good feel for what budget we need and that, the £7.7. million we think is strong and we think it will enable us to continue to grow the sector.

David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Can I look at the media investment budget, which takes us on in this theme? It's a very important area. I think we all believe that investment in film and tv development and building on our creative industries, is hugely important.

Now, when the investment budget was launched in 2014, it was envisaged that it would be a £30 million fund over a five-year period. That would, I think, have taken us to the end of the last financial year, or perhaps the end of the current one—I don't know. But anyway, in the event, we've spent about £15 million. We seem to be on pause. I think Mr Thomas said at our last budget scrutiny last year that the fund was on pause, and it seems to me that the reason this has happened is the self-sustaining nature of this type of investment programme has not been achieved in terms of the receipts that had been anticipated. So, the concept seems to be under some threat at the moment, and I just wonder—is that a fair description? Are we about to see some progress, and these obstacles being overcome? Where, currently, are we at? I do notice in the projects funded so far no dates are given, so I'm not quite sure how recent some of them are, but certainly, in terms of net gain or loss, we're not where we would have hoped to be. I really do phrase this question in the spirit that we need a fund like this, and I guess this is the first time we've done it, but where are we? Because this is obviously an important area and there seems to be some problem with it at the moment.

Our figure for the total Welsh spend as a result of the investment in the media investment budget is £25 million. I will ask my colleagues to justify that figure further to you.

If we go back to when this programme was created, profit, in terms of overall return on the production itself, was never really the prime objective. The objective was an overall return on investment for the Welsh public purse. So, as the Minister says, for the amount of defrayment, which was probably in the region of £15 million over the period, we have evidence that we've brought in £25 million of spend into Wales. So, we think it's been really successful.

The reason that we paused it was we wanted to ensure that, with the launch of Creative Wales, we were just using the correct mechanisms for these things. Obviously, the landscape has moved on significantly even over the four or five years from when the fund was created. There are different things that we want to see from Welsh Government investment than we probably would have even done back in 2014. We've had things like the economic contract that has come out of the economic action plan, and there are certain other things that we want to ensure that we get delivered through our money—you know, the real living wage and all of these different things that, perhaps, have moved on slightly since 2014. So, we thought it was right to pause.

What we still absolutely recognise is there is a case for public investment to support film and tv production coming into Wales. So, what we're going to do with Creative Wales is just bring all of that together and go again, really, with a mechanism that we feel is appropriate for the time now. So, we totally agree that we need to keep doing these things, but we would still say that the money we've invested in the media investment budget was spent, overall, well. Because, overall, £25 million of investment for a net £10 million—. So, we invested £15 million, but we've recouped £5 million in terms of receipts. So, a £25 million return on a £10 million investment, we think, is good.

Was that anticipated originally? Because in my interpretation, what you anticipated originally was that this would be a self-maintaining fund and that your receipts would then, in the future, generate the investment potential for the programme to continue. It would be self-funding, in other words, over time. Now, we don't seem to be anywhere close to that, or am I wrong in saying that?

No, I don't think you're wrong in saying that. I think we fell short in terms of the commercial receipts that we've had. The view was that the receipts that would come in would create budget for the creative team to defray. What we're saying now is that we don't actually think—we think, maybe, there's a better way of actually doing this.

So, that concept is not feasible now. I accept that when you put a programme into effect you learn lessons, I guess, but I just think we do need candour about this. Should we be disappointed that the overall investment, at £15 million, is only half of what was anticipated to be generated in a five-year period? Is that because there's been a lack of appetite amongst the sector to take up investment opportunities in Wales, and therefore the volume of investment—the number of productions, in other words—has been disappointing?

No, I wouldn't say that at all. Pinewood Cymru—the last time I was there, I couldn't find even a place to sit down. The activity, partly due to His Dark Materials but also all of the other activity with Bad Wolf, and the use of that building has been very successful. All our potential spaces—as a result of that, poor Jason has been running around warehouses all over Newport trying to get space for that activity to take place. In my discussions—I've met Universal three times since they've been involved in Wales, and they are very, very positive about the relationship between ourselves and them.

So, if it's not a lack of potential partners, was £30 million over five years just too big an expectation? Is that where we're at?

I think, at the time, we took that on advice. We had an external sector panel that was in place then and said, 'Set the bar high, be ambitious, that is what you should aim for.' The point I would just stress is that we have definitely not recouped what we would have totally liked to recoup, but the nature of this business is it's still only a snapshot in time. Many of these investments will still recoup over the coming years. So, it's not a final figure, and some of these things could garner—[Inaudible.]

It's still work in progress. And when you have the candour to say, 'It's not done as well as was anticipated', in my view, that increases your credibility of what you may be doing in the review process, and that's where I want to get to, really. So, we paused it last year, are we actively making any investments at the moment?

Yes, we are.

And a rough idea of the volume of that; has it run at £1 million or so, or more, or what?

We've invested in around 10 projects since we closed the medium-investment budget, so we've been taking forward investments via normal mechanisms within the department, really. An application comes to us, we consider it, we put a level of scrutiny over that and we put advice up through the normal channels. So, I think it's 10 investments since we closed it, but we could provide you a note with the actual dates on them.

So, any potential partners now looking to produce something in Wales are not going to be put off by a lack of—.

No. This sector is absolutely thriving at the moment. And as the Minister says, we've created a very nice problem for ourselves in that we have to try and find space to cater for what is a fast-growing sector.

I want to turn to a completely different area. I realise time is pressing. In our recent inquiry on the live music scene there was demand from the sector for some small sums of capital funding to be available to live music venues, and there is a similar scheme—well, there is a scheme in England, run by the arts council there, that provides some funding. I think pro rata, if we had that in Wales, we'd be talking £80,000 to £100,000, it's not a huge amount, and then grants of up to £15,000 or so, which would help the small venues with sound equipment or such capital costs. Are you looking at this? Because it does seem to be an area where there's a bit of a gap at the moment in what's available to a really important sector, I think, of the arts scene.

We have funded PYST, but that's not specifically for venues. That is for contemporary Welsh language and other language musical activity. But this will be a priority for Creative Wales, we think.

We recognise that this is a challenge all over Wales. Growing up where I grew up, live music was a thing in the Rhondda constantly and it seems to have definitely dropped off over the years. What we will say in Creative Wales—I'm not giving away, I don't think, too much in this—is the relentless focus that we've had on film and tv over the past decade, almost, has paid dividends but has potentially been at the cost of other sectors within creative, because we've been so focused on film and tv. And what we do recognise is that there are other elements of the sector, music being one, local music, gaming—attaching these other bits of creative that need more emphasis. So, we will be saying something about music, and we will definitely be looking at what capital is required to make venues thrive.

But also, to the Minister's point on PYST, you can invest in the infrastructure and the equipment and make it all look great, but you've got to put in a support package for operators as well, because if you're an operator of a small venue—and we see this all over Wales now—it is a big risk sometimes to put on a gig. If they lose money, people are going to really struggle to put on another gig. So, we're looking at mechanisms—and we've done this with PYST—about how we can take away some of that risk and encourage them to put on gigs and then hopefully the music will build and build then. So, it's definitely a priority. 

We are at the moment awaiting a further study of the mapping of grass-roots music venues across Wales. This will give us a good geographical map of grass-roots music and what further needs are. When we get that certainty, and when we've had a look at it, we can share it with you.

Finally from me, it's just to amplify something—to use the appropriate metaphor—that came out of that inquiry: with these venues, the whole pipeline to sustain an excellence in live music means you've got to look at the grass roots as well, you can't just be at the high end where you get thousands attending. The small venues are really, really important. So, I'm sure we'll await developments with great interest, as will the sector. Diolch yn fawr.

We haven't reported yet on that.

Sorry. Have I given something away?

We'll send you our report when it's finalised. Diolch. Mick Antoniw. 

You've previously expressed your aspiration for there to be more work done to promote our industrial heritage, and I was wondering how you see this budget actually working towards that aspiration.

We have indeed emphasised industrial heritage, and I'm very pleased with the response that I've had, especially from colleagues in Cadw, in this whole area. We are looking, for example, to—. We've already provided £0.7 million in capital grants to owners of historic assets, including industrial heritage sites such as Nantgarw china works. We are looking at an increase to the allocation of these grant programmes over a level of £1.1 million during 2020-21, and to encourage further applications from those who manage assets relating to our industrial heritage. Do you want to add something on that?

Only that it does definitely remain a priority for us. We've got some really exciting things in the pipeline. I don't know if you've ever been to Bryntail lead mine, but it's one of these phenomenal sites across Wales that sometimes we need to do more to raise the profile of, so we've got plans to do that. That's just one example. From the Minister setting out his priority, Cadw have been actively taking that forward over the last 12 months.

There will be new interpretation at the site that Jason has just referred to, as well as one of my favourite sites in all the world, which is the Blaenavon ironworks. There'll be further interpretation work there. And the archaeological trusts have been working with us in understanding the importance of the metal-working industries in south Wales, and how we can improve the interpretation, and signposting additional heritage sites that are open to the public more clearly.

We are preparing two newly illustrated booklets concentrating on the industrial heritage. I don't apologise for starting with the castles of the Lords of Wales in terms of our publication programme, but we are now getting to the working-class castles as well. So, the draft budget will include provision for the completion of these publications, so there will then be a greater awareness, we hope, of our outstanding industrial heritage.

I'm obviously very pleased to see investment and support for places like Nantgarw china works. I think they, in some ways, have been missed gems in the past. And obviously places like Llantrisant Guildhall and so on, where there's been continued support. The £0.7 million isn't an enormous amount of money. How is that money used? Is it more by way of leveraging, rather than funding specifically itself? Is that the way in which what is a relatively small amount of money is actually being used?

That is actually—. Where the sites are owned by Cadw, it is Cadw investing in its own sites; but where the sites are run by other bodies, we provide funding specifically for providing better interpretation, better access and other aspects of the site. Do you want to say a bit more about that?

But it is about looking to leverage other money as well, because the maximum grants that Cadw normally give under that that scheme is £50,000.

That's right.

We are looking to match with other sources of funding.

Cadw, in terms of its income—. Is support also being given to Cadw in respect of them growing their investment income? Because they have been very successful, haven't they, over the last five or six years? I think it's increased from something like—. It's almost a 100 per cent increase, isn't it, from £4 million to around about £8 million plus? Is that part of the strategy as well?

Yes, absolutely, it is. As you say, the income has grown from about £4.8 million to—I think last year was £7.7 million. This year, we think, will come in at maybe £8.3 million or something like that. Cadw has allocated specific funding, totalling about £10 million over a period of three years, to invest in our own monuments, which we've been doing. The Cadw budget for next year is £8 million on capital, and there's going to be major investment in Caernarfon castle and Caerphilly castle in particular, looking at a new catering facility in Caerphilly castle, extending the facilities at Caernarfon, improving the retail offer—

And the lift.

—and lift access to areas of the monument in Caernarfon, certainly. But it's about—we are looking to invest and to grow that income base. A lot of the planning and preparatory work has been carried out now, and next year and the year after will be the years of big spend in these new, improved facilities.

There are some further questions I could ask, but time is very, very tight. I just wanted to ask a specific question about some of the funding for the local museums. The £1.4 million, the capital transformation grant, I think, is of interest. I notice there that, of course, it was £1.4 million, but there were quite substantial bids for that money—£3.58 million, I think, is the figure that we've got—so clearly there's a real demand there in terms of the work that our local museums actually do. And I was just wondering how you see the budget in terms of the capacity to actually give that level of support to what are sometimes seen as less important than other museums, but which, I think, for local communities are vitally important, and particularly with some of the education work that's going on now.

What we try to do—and Huw's point earlier—is encourage the regional and local museums and galleries to look at packages of funding, and we are able to advise them there and to assist them, and of course where the Heritage Lottery Fund makes a substantial contribution in those areas, we very much welcome that. The partnership we have with heritage lottery in Wales is very positive, and we meet regularly, and we're able to assess and understand what the demand is. But as you say, we are running to catch up with the enthusiasm that these institutions have.

Okay.

John Griffiths, I know, has some heritage questions as well. John.

Just on heritage, I wonder if there's sufficient resource and support available for ambitious projects that local authorities in Wales and others might have. I'm thinking specifically of the Newport transporter bridge, being slightly parochial, because I know you're aware of the proposals, Minister, and I just wondered if you could say something about the availability of resource for that scale of project, really.

Well, that's a very good example of where we look forward to a good partnership with heritage lottery and with the local authority. I have enjoyed my visits to the transporter bridge. It deserves a proper interpretation centre, and it will have it. We'll make sure of that.

We've had really positive discussions with Newport, and it crosses many bits of the Minister's portfolio—tourism and heritage. I'm meeting the chief executive of Newport council later on today, talking about a wide range of things within the portfolio that link to Newport. So we are really keen on that project. I guess it's another one of these projects that the Minister touched on at the start of the session. It's a significant amount of money to do it justice, and we've got to prioritise everything and see how we look at all these projects in the round and make sure that we put money into the right things. But this one certainly looks really strong.

The word 'iconic' is often misused or used too loosely in heritage projects, but if it applies to any site in Wales, it's Newport, isn't it? You can see it from everywhere, it's the symbol of industrial south-east Wales as you arrive there, and we have a duty, because I remember—and I may have said this before to you—that when I visited the other bridge in Bilbao, they chastised me for not looking after the Newport bridge better, because they said that the one in Newport was even better than theirs. So, it is the transporter bridge of transporter bridges, really. It's very important for us.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much for that. The final question from me is on the community journalism fund, the £100,000 that I think was for a two-year period. Are you yet at the stage where you've made any assessment of the outcomes, and whether that money has achieved the desired objectives? Are you able to say anything about possible continuation of that money?

I'm in some difficulty about answering you properly on this; I may have to send you a further note. Although the community journalism fund is a responsibility of mine in terms of portfolio, it is actually funded through the entrepreneurship budget, not through the culture budget. Where there was, as you know, a two-year period commitment following discussions with Plaid Cymru for this to be delivered, Welsh Government officials have continued to work with Cardiff University's Centre for Community Journalism to promote the fund, and there is a workshop, I think, there has been a workshop with the centre to meet the community journalism sector and encourage applications. And there is a small independent study to be commissioned very soon—I have a note here—to evaluate the impact of the fund and the lessons learnt. I don't know whether there's any more we can say on that, but we'll get back to you on that.

Okay. Thanks very much. 

If you could send us a note, that would be good, because we had some concerns from some people that if they were applying for another fund, say, with the Welsh Books Council, that they weren't then able to apply for this particular fund to do something entirely different. So, I think we would like to see any sort of review and how it takes shape, and how, potentially then, we can move on for the next tranche of the funding. So, diolch yn fawr iawn. 

They may like to apply for both.

Sorry?

They may like to apply for both and they probably would get one of them. 

They'd probably want both though, that's the thing. [Laughter.] The funding is quite small, that's the thing. So, I think, where these hyperlocals are seeking for more than one budget, it's for entirely rational and legitimate reasons, but in different areas. But we look forward to what you have to show us. 

There may have been more questions, but—

Diolch yn fawr. Minister, in responding to a recommendation of this committee, the Welsh Government said it intended to allocate £115,000 to Prosiect 2050 in the budget for next year. Is that still the case, and, if it is, when would you expect it to be established?

So, the idea of this—as I just mentioned previously—is that we have a much more strategic approach to planning for the Welsh language across Government. So, we will appoint somebody. That process of appointment has already started. We hope to get somebody in place, as I say, by the next financial year. The idea here is that we grow the capacity of language planning within the department and that we get external experts to help us to look at international experience of what works, what doesn't work, and to test how things work well and then to adapt quickly to changes if we find them to be successful. 

The other thing is that we've been working very closely with Academi Wales to make sure that, when we're developing the future leaders of the civil service, for example, they understand that Welsh has got to be absolutely central to not only what they do but how they do it across all departments. And, again, one of the things we're doing is to make sure that, for example, in relation to the economy, that that is also central for us to think strategically about where the growth of the Welsh language is happening and making sure that, if we see the growth in the cities, we don't see a drop in those heartlands. 

Yes, okay. In terms of promoting the language, then, Minister, is there anything else you would say about a change to how you allocate or intend to allocate funding for the coming financial year?

So, I think one of the things I'm keen to do is to look at—. So, we've got the budget as a whole. If we look at how that is, what the pie graph looks like—. So, I think what is important is that we keep on focusing on early years, young—. So, we're providing that framework for the future. The language use is absolutely critical and that's why we will continue to support organisations that encourage the use of Welsh, like the Urdd, like the Eisteddfod, making sure that, for example, apprenticeships are mainstreamed as well, that we see more apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh. So, I think that, in terms of our strategic goals and where the funding is going, the key thing for me is that we now consider outcomes constantly as being the things that we focus on.

Okay. And in terms of priorities, then, Minister, your paper indicates that there will be further reductions to the National Centre for Learning Welsh and that money would then be used for other priority areas. Could you say something about the level of savings and what those priority areas are likely to be?

So, I've already had an initial discussion with the chief executive of the National Centre for Learning Welsh and I think it's really important that I underline that I think they're doing a really, really good job. What I don't want to do is to destabilise the organisation in any way at all, but I think it is important, because they take quite a big chunk of the budget, that we make sure that we probe how that money is spent and are we getting the right outcomes and are we getting enough bang for our buck, effectively. So, that's why I think that I'm keen to look at that. This was part of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, and I just think it's right that we just keep probing are we spending the right money in the right places.

The other concern I have is Brexit and the potential impact that Brexit could have on some of those rural communities in particular. So, I'm keen to see if we can provide some flexibility if we were able to release some funding from the National Centre for Learning Welsh to allow for us to maybe put some reinforcement in those kind of areas. 

Sure. And the in-year review that might happen in terms of Brexit and its impact, would that possibly lead to more funding being available to support the language, or is it a matter of existing budgets being reprioritised?

Well, I'm still looking at the National Centre for Learning Welsh to see exactly—. I wouldn't be looking at taking a huge amount of money away from them, but I do think what's—

No, but the more general in-year review in terms of Brexit impacts.

Yes, I think, on that, what's important is that we work constructively with the economy department, and I've already had discussions with Ken Skates and with Lee Waters about the potential impact of Brexit on those Welsh language communities. So, I'm just very, very keen to make sure that we keep an eye on that and that we work together. And that's why we've set up this round table in those rural Welsh language heartlands, working with the local authorities, to see how we can build and make sure that we build in some sustainability into the long-term future of those communities. 

Okay, a final question from me, Minister, on technology and its potential in terms of making significant savings with regard to translation costs, and your paper discussing how Welsh Government might work with other public sector organisations to develop the use of that technology. Could you tell the committee where in the draft budget there is provision to take this forward, and what sort of savings might be realised?

So, we already have an action plan for technology that is within this budget. We do like to think that we could really lead the world in this area in terms of developing a system, working maybe with the Basque Country who've done a lot of work already in this sense. If you think about how much translation is done, not just in this organisation but across organisations across the whole of Wales, with artificial intelligence now there's a huge amount that you can do in terms of getting machine translation done. There's already a group, an artificial intelligence group, that is working cross-Government to see how we can make savings, and the Welsh language must be a central part of that. So, I've already started having discussions with the finance Minister about the potential areas for savings, and we are investigating now whether in future we can use the invest-to-save pot of money in order to make savings, not just in the Welsh Government but across all of the public authorities in Wales. 

Okay, thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Minister, I think it's fair to say that this committee, over the last couple of years, has been quite concerned by the position that the Welsh commissioner's office was in. Now, obviously, we've got a new commissioner. And this is not a criticism of the old commissioner, there was a rational choice; but basically they were sustaining their level of functions and range of responsibilities by drawing on reserves, and this was not an equilibrium position. Indeed, she did indicate that it could not go on.

So, I just wonder what sort of discussions have you had with the new commissioner about the financial position, in terms of the need to get to an equilibrium position and a realistic assessment of the costs of various functions and whether that wide range can continue. And there were issues about the number of cases around standards, the legal costs and the degree of promotional work that was realistic as well. Because your budget settlement is—I was trying to work out a percentage increase, it's about 1.5 per cent, I think, in terms of the revenue. So, obviously, that's not changed fundamentally. So, where are we in terms of the stability of that office in terms of its budgeting?

So, we have managed to give them an extra £50,000 to help with some of the issues around salaries this year, pensions—I think that's right, isn't it? And then, we have also, critically, given them some significant capital expenditure, so they've had about £385,000 to upgrade their IT systems. What we're hoping is that that will release some time and some capacity for them; that they won't have to spend quite so much time travelling if they can develop video-conferencing and things like that, because they are dotted around the whole of Wales.

The other thing we've done is to work with the commissioner, and we have regular quarterly meetings, and obviously we do discuss the budget needs of the commissioner. One of the things we've tried to do is to rationalise and to make sure everybody knows whose responsibility is what. So, we now have a memorandum of understanding between us and the commissioner, just making absolutely clear who is responsible for what, because I think there is potential for duplication, which has happened in the past, and so it makes sense for us to co-operate.

So, if you just think about how you enhance the use of Welsh in some of those areas where they have standards, they have issues where they have to be driving the standards within an organisation, we can maybe help along with that, so that it's clear that some of the responsibility is about policing, but the other part is also about enhancing and encouraging the use. And we are trying to make much better connections and work, not just with us, but with other organisations across Wales, to make sure that everyone understands who leads in that particular area on the language, so that we don't get that duplication. So, that should lead to savings as well for the commissioner.

In these discussions, did the Welsh Language Commissioner ask for more in terms of the revenue settlement, or has he got what he asked for, basically?

Well, I think everybody asks for more, don't they? We have given him—. In terms of capital, I think that's been very significant, and that was his main request, so we're very pleased that we've been able to adhere to that.

If I move, then, on to the capital allocation of £385,000, obviously—and you've indicated—it's meant to have a fundamental effect on the efficiency of the activities. Most of it is around IT upgrades—I have to say, this takes me into areas that stretch my competence—a cloud-based model, upgrading the Wi-Fi system and hardware to build resilience. But, obviously, these IT programmes sometimes go wrong, so what sort of monitoring will we have in place to ensure that this substantial amount, in terms of their operation, is used to best effect?

I think, first of all, it's worth emphasising that their system is pretty old. They're using the same system as what they used under the Welsh Language Board, so that's quite a few years ago. We will, of course, monitor how they spend this money. We've got some experts that can help them with that, and I think that's the kind of way that the Welsh Government can help. We've been through procurement and things within Government, so we have some expertise, so we can hold their hand through some of that process, and obviously we'll be monitoring that as we go along. We even have some experts within our department, don't we? 

Yes. So, we've obviously worked with them to consult on their needs, and we've had, as the Minister said, our experts go in to make sure that we meet their future business needs.

And then in terms of their day-to-day operations and reducing their carbon footprint—and I think you've indicated that that was part of the rationale for capital increase—are there different ways they may be working that we will see? What might they be?

I think what's important is that the commissioner is independent and he decides how he's going to manage his office. We can obviously encourage him to do more remote working or whatever, but ultimately the commissioner is independent, and I think it's absolutely right that we allow him to determine how he uses that system in the long term.

So, when requesting this capital increase, you surely indicated where the carbon footprint could potentially be reduced, I presume. Was that in the business case?

It's mostly around travel; the reduction in travel for his members of staff who travel quite extensively around the country. If you can do more of that on video-conferencing, the technology is there now to do that, that will save a considerable amount of time and carbon emissions, obviously.

Okay. Diolch.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mick Antoniw.

Just a couple of questions around the Welsh in education funding. You've covered one area, which is about the new early learning groups, and obviously the aspiration is the creation of 40, and that's being budgeted for. I think you indicated that there were 19 or so that were now in place, so just for the record, you're confident then that by 2021 all 40 will be established, and that those targets will be achieved?

Yes, we're fairly confident that that will happen. The challenge for us is to make sure that there are enough teachers available for that, but we've put lots and lots of projects in place to make sure that that can happen. So, the ysgolion meithrin themselves have their own programme, and the centre for language learning have also developed an online programme to help people that has specifically been designed to help people who want to teach in this area, and Cwlwm I think is the other one. So, there are lots and lots of training opportunities, and I think the Urdd also has a programme to try and encourage people into apprenticeships and to get more people working in this space. So, you can't just produce 40 new without understanding that there is a need to develop the workforce. But that, I'm confident, is also now in place.

So, you're confident that the numbers will be there. It's obviously a challenge, and measures are in place to do that, but you obviously wouldn't be confident about completing the 40 unless you were confident that those new teachers will come through the system.

Just to add, on top of the 19 Cylchoedd there are 43 Cylchoedd Ti a Fi, which are the precursors to the Cylchoedd Meithrin because they target age two. And if you look at the annual report from Mudiad Meithrin this year, 234 new practitioners have completed the course, and 142 through the academy. So there is a focus and there is a strategic plan so that all the parts of the jigsaw fit into place. And of course if you look beyond that, in the Cymraeg i Blant and the transmission programme, the encouragement to provide or to persuade people to send children to Welsh-medium education starts before the child is born.

That takes me on then, obviously, to following the trail of money of the £1.65 million, I think, that's taken out of the Welsh language expenditure line to support Cymraeg 2050. You're confident then that that money is going to be used specifically for what you want it to be used, and that is the training.

Absolutely, yes. We've got this sabbatical programme, and some of it covers a year, but there are other much shorter periods where people can upgrade their language and make sure that they are able to use the kind of language that is necessary to teach a certain age group. So, we're confident that the transfer of funding from one education budget line will be transferred into the training budget line, but that that is earmarked specifically for the Welsh language.

It's like a sort of house of cards, isn't it, really? If you take one card out, the whole system falls down, doesn't it? You've got to have the resources in, you've got to have the teachers in, you've got to have the flow through, you can't not open the school year, et cetera. So, the whole thing is very dialectically interlinked, isn't it?

I think that's right and I think the other thing that is worth pointing out is that I think it's something like 32,000 adults who are going through the youngest age group and it's really key to get those parents of very young children, because there's almost an automatic follow-on there then to Welsh language schools. So, it's catching them at this very, very young age and encouraging people. Because we're still in a position where—you know, we're not forcing people into Welsh language education, it's a demand, but you've got to make sure that you provide an opportunity to feed that demand. 

And then just perhaps one further question on the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol: the obviously increased responsibilities there in terms of objectives with regard to post-16 education, for education and training and so on, is very resource-driven. So, I wonder if you could perhaps outline how the budget is going to satisfy the additional responsibilities that they're going to have within that area. 

You'll be aware that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol expanded its responsibilities beyond higher education to include further education. I think that was really important and significant. So, there's been a significant amount of money, about £280,000, spent on trying to encourage ambassadors on behalf of the Welsh language post-16 group. So, that was launched in the Eisteddfod this year, and what that's trying to do is to make sure that people have an understanding, and you get young people to be the ambassadors, to speak to other young people, and I think that's the way that we can really encourage this age group to make sure that they undertake more of their education through the medium of Welsh. It doesn't have to be entirely through the medium of Welsh, it can be certain modules. But also something I'm keen to see is to make sure people understand that it doesn't have to be about formal education. It's the use of language that I'm interested in, and that includes the social use of language, which I think is as important as any formal speaking opportunities within the classroom.

Yes, so you can force numbers but you can't force usage, can you?

Exactly. And this is the really delicate, sensitive thing with language: you cannot force a language on people. People have to come to this, and you can encourage, you can put people—you can take the horse to water, but, you know—? I know: I went to a Welsh language school and the language on the school yard was English. It's really, really difficult to change attitudes and it's a very sensitive and difficult issue. You can't force people to do it, and that's why we've got to bring people with us, and getting young people to encourage other young people I think is a really good way forward.