National Assembly for Wales

Well, not really, because we had a chat before we came in, so we did do a bit of a conference about the problems. Part of it is that I think it really is that we are, particularly in Pontypridd, in Clwb y Bont, a grass-roots music venue, and it's a bit like we're an endangered species. If we do go under—I hope we won't; we've been there for 40 years now, and we own the building, so we're much more comfortable off than other places. We would like to have someone champion the cause that we are a cultural centre. We're not simply a pub that puts bands on on a Friday or Saturday night. We have live music on Mondays. I could go through a list of what we do, but we have a choir on Monday, a community choir, and just by default of what we do, we say 'Yes' to a lot of people who want to play music, and we've actually filled in like a well-being agenda. Very directly, or indirectly, we actually fulfil that purpose. And also we incorporate live music in other events, with performances. Theatre companies come, and that is classed as live music, I would say, where we use things like that. 

There's a lot to say about what we do. I can't say that it's better or worse. I've been involved in music and events for a long time—over 30 years, now. I would say that there's a professionalism that is coming in to music. People are told it's an industry, the music industry, and that is right, to a certain level. There's an entry level to culture, which can be seen as a profession, but I think it's also about people playing music for the love of it. They've already got another job, and they come and play in our venue because we're small enough to accommodate them. But we have actually now, in our venue—because we've had a stable three years of good management, and we've cleared our finance difficulties that we had—we're actually now bringing in people like BBC Horizons artists, people like menter iaith are also sponsoring Welsh-language gigs, we're working with PYST, who are the promoters in the Welsh language, and the Young Promoters Network as well. So, we're actually making a lot of directions out into the professional areas, and also we work with professional gigging bands, but I think we should be looked at as very much a cultural centre in Pontypridd.

I don't know—. We'd need to know the context of it all, otherwise it's flags on maps, I suppose. It's the content of what that entails.

But you haven't been contacted yet to take part in it. 

No.

That's what I was trying to get at. So, we can follow up with Government.

Well, at our club itself, our venue, we can't really accommodate festivals. We're too small. But perhaps, if we were getting an expansion of the building—. We own our building, but we could double in size tomorrow if we had funding and we could then put on a lovely festival in Pontypridd. But, of course, people can make a festival in a tent; you don't need a physical building. And we can also make a cluster of small buildings to make a festival. 

Something for the future, then.

It's something for the future. 

Could I just ask a brief follow-up question on that, Chair? A while ago, I was aware that the literature festival in Hay-on-Wye were asked to, and wanted to, help other festivals in Wales, using the experience and the expertise they've built up over many years and, indeed, the success they've had. And I think they were linked with Merthyr and the rock festival in Merthyr, but I'm not quite sure how well that worked and whether it's still continuing. Is that a good idea in terms of building festivals, linking in that way, do you think?

Okay. I just have some questions about support and advice, and how adequate it is. In general, is there enough support and advice available to the music industry in Wales, do you think?

In RCT, we have the young promoters network, which is funded to support young people to get into the industry—very much aimed towards the industry, I think. They've been using our venue as one of a cluster; they go around and work in different venues in RCT. And I think they've been brilliant at promoting new bands—really, really supportive. They're a young team, and we also get the fallout from that, because people think you can come to the club and we're experts on everything. We're not actually geared up to it but, informally, we encourage people to do stuff in the club, and I always direct them to YPN if it's a young band, because they're geared up for it, really.   

RCT. 

Okay. Moving on to the arts council, then, in terms of music venues, would you say that the arts council is a useful source of advice? 

Okay. Terry, did you want to add anything to that? 

No, I don't think I will. I'll pass on that.

You mentioned, Guto, some of the funding issues, so if we move on to funding and the funding that the arts council provides, what would you say about the adequacy of that funding and any changes that need to be made—the way they fund by art form and the way they would fund music in terms of venues or artists, and the way that the funding is distributed?

Could I just say something quickly about that? I've just reminded myself that we actually do get support from the arts council with the Night Out circuit, which is a pot of money, which allows us to bring in BBC Horizons artists and we bring people down from north Wales, because we could never afford to bring an artist down from Bangor—just the transport costs would wipe out any fees for them. So, the arts council do support us regularly now, particularly to bring Welsh language artists from other parts of Wales down, which has been a really great help. We can now programme in people coming in about four or five times a year. It's really good.

John, anything else?

I think that's fine, unless Terry wanted to add anything.

No, it's just the idea of having a cushion against loss—that would be excellent. It's about expanding that thing that the arts council are doing with the Night Out scheme. The artist is guaranteed to get paid, and it's not an embarrassment that we have to face that loss. Our losses are much smaller than Clwb Ifor Bach's for a gig—

Thanks, Chair. I'd just like to ask a question on the planning side, and by planning I mean zoning and what developments sit side by side. I think it was quite helpful that the agent of change principle was introduced, but I just wonder how it's working in practice and whether it's enough or do you still have concerns, really, about the situation where there's more residential use in city centres designed sometimes for people who are perhaps not well suited to that more urban environment in terms of a busier city centre and noise and the like.

Terry.

I think the problem with soundproofing doesn't only happen in the city, mind. Because we're in our own little lane just off the main street, and, as I say, we've got a courtyard, we own our own building, and we're very lucky that the estate agents at the top of the lane have never complained about the sound, because they're never there in the offices. But, one day, if they do actually turn those into flats, those offices, because of the agent of change law—or just rules or guidance—it's up to them to make sure that they've worked on their building rather than ours to futureproof it sort of thing. That's part of the reason why we'd like to develop the upper floors of our buildings, because we can actually make it more soundproof, because at the moment the sound does tend to go through the roof. But no-one complains because we're actually out of the way. 

I think people have—. There have always been some people who have chosen to live in city centres, town centres, where there's a night economy, and they've made a choice. Some mix, I think, is quite reasonable, but there's a kind of natural level to it, because most people might want a more predictable quiet, which is fine if that's what they want. But students, younger professionals, and to some extent the hotel business, I suppose—. So, that kind of balance existed for a long time, I think it's fair to say, isn't it? And then 10, 20 years ago, we were suddenly hit by a development going in, getting planning permission, and then afterwards saying, 'Oh, by the way, there's a lot of noise here; I really want something done about it.' That's what we need to guard against. I think the cultural quarters and safeguarding those is—. It could, in part, be that, but it also offers some protection, doesn't it, that we don't turn our city areas, particularly Cardiff, I think, Ponty maybe as well, into highly commercial, fairly narrow range, which don't have—I don't want to say scruffier clubs or something, but there is a certain ambience, isn't there, about music venues, which people like, and it doesn't look the same as a gigantic chain store or a swish chain restaurant or something. So, is that what you think, in terms of the cultural safeguarding, that we might be looking at? 

'Patina' would have been a better word than 'scruffy'; I do apologise. 

I'll take 'scruffy'. [Laughter.] 

I remember that, years ago, there was a big movement in Cardiff about the 18-hour city, and the town was being encouraged to put more housing back into the city centre. And I think people were forgetting the fact that there would be then a lot of noise, social things going on, music. And part of that is the buzz of living in the city, and what do you do about that? What happens now is that music venues tend to have live music until 11 a.m., which—. They have their own curfews. We could actually play music—we do play music—until 1 a.m. because we can; we don't have any neighbours to disturb, yet. But most bands are gobsmacked if you say, 'Yes, you can play until midnight', because they're just not used to it. 

And the other thing is that, with the Music Venue Trust, we had a lot of information from them about the European perspective, and, as I understand it, small towns like Pontypridd, which is a university town, are actually subsidised to keep their students within the town after they've left their courses. So, what you do is—it's such an attractive thing to have live music venues in a place like Pontypridd, because they don't have to come down to Cardiff to hear live music. And, last night, we had our first LGBT group there, and that was the first time we've actually had students in doing their own event, but also we had a lot of students coming in this year; I don't know why it's this year, it might be a change in the weather or something, but they're coming in from—. They're foreign students, and they said, 'We don't want to go to Weatherspoons; (a) there's no music, but also there's no atmosphere', and they want to support us because they believe in the ethos of what we're doing. So, we're going in the right direction, I think, with keeping our uniqueness, and we're negotiating how we can keep the peace in the town. We don't want to upset our neighbours.

You didn't want me to do licensing, did you? Is that—?

No, Carwyn's doing licensing and we'll come back to you for business rates. Carwyn Jones. 

We've got a balance to have in our club. We're such a small venue, we can't charge every night to come and see some of the artists that we have. Most of the artists in the week don't get paid to perform. They're coming in because they're in the jazz society or the folk society or whatever, and some of the bands that we have on the weekend also are doing it for the love of it, I think. Even though they're, I would say, professional, they're not making money out of it. So, we have to take a hit sometimes where we can't charge on the door, where we know that if we do, we won't be getting anyone through the door, because it's a new band and nobody knows them. We're not giving them something that they know and love. We have to take that hit sometimes. It is just a big risk every weekend.

We do get profiling on different gigs, and there are gigs happening, coming up, that we're planning with the university—there may be questions coming up about some of the gigs that we're bringing in the future. It's something that I really can't talk about, really, at the moment.

It's not your direct experience yet.

Not yet, but we take a risk assessment on every gig we do, and we are taking advice on some of the gigs that we're bringing in as we're trying new things out. So, we want to make sure they're successful.

Yes. I think there was a gentle decline in the multiplier for business rates from 2010 to 2017; obviously there was the change in 2017. So, where are you now with business rates and how big a cost is it for you? And in terms of the planning of your cultural activities, how much does it restrict what you can do, in effect?

There are obviously various schemes of relief; they're usually based on turnover, not profit. I suspect your turnover is too large for most of the schemes available. Is that right?

Yes. I think so, yes.

Terry.

I'm happy to say that our finance person is happy with our rates, surprisingly. When I brought it up, he said, 'We’re comfortable with it.' I think it’s because of our small turnover and where we are.

Are there any other schemes around the UK, perhaps in England, where you don’t have to go through the route of becoming a charity—that they identify cultural, perhaps particularly smaller cultural organisations or businesses, one-offs if they’re not part of a chain or anything?

I can't possibly think what you're referring to. [Laughter.] That's all I've got.

Well, we actually offer space in our building as rehearsal space to young bands, and experienced bands; when people think that we're closed, we're actually open.

Also, I've been involved in Cardiff with the Cathays Community Centre, which is Soundscene studios, which is an independent building, community run, and that really is part of the infrastructure of Cardiff's music scene, because it's where you get the cheapest studios; they're in town, easy access, and, again, people go there to support the ethos of that being—it's a non-commercial building, in a way, but they manage to pay their way. They used to do a lot of gigs there, but because of the idea that people are living next door to them—it's elderly accommodation—they've cut down the number of gigs that they do there, but the rehearsal studios are actually put to one side of the building, away from the accommodation.

I think, speaking for Newport, personally, getting rid of our university really affected the live music scene in Newport, and I also think across the whole of Wales there's a big dip in attendance at gigs. 

Attendance at gigs in more grass-roots places, as opposed to the Motorpoints of the world.

Yes, definitely. I think a basic lack of investment and funding into grass-roots music has led to some of the venues being a little bit run down, so people aren't attending them, and that's a massive problem for us, that—. I don't know, I could go on for hours, but I think one of the big things is that theatres and dance studios and places like that don't pay business rates, so why do music venues? And then, if we had the money that we're spending out on business rates to invest back into our venues, they'd be slightly nicer places to be. And then we could encourage the growth of grass-roots music and Welsh artists. 

Okay. We'll come on to business rates later, but the general point is you think that it's got worse, not better. 

Yes, definitely. Over the last 10 years, we've definitely seen a massive dip in attendance. 

Okay. And the venues, the type of venues that are available.

Yes, the venues are closing left, right and centre.

Okay.

And those that do still exist have to spend so much money just to stay open and to try to compete with all the massive chains that come in with their flash toilets and their flash this and their flash that.

Okay. Sorry, David, did you have something you wanted to say there?

No, no, it's fine. 

Sorry. Gary.

We've seen very much the same sort of thing. In the last—. Certainly for Swansea, in the last couple of years, it's actually started to get a little bit better, for different reasons. But, since I started doing this in 2005, immediately—almost immediately, from 2005 through to 2015—there was a huge decline in gig ticket sales and gig attendance, and therefore, as a result, gigs being put on. People just stopped promoting gigs—for the most part, anyway; there were obviously a dedicated few that carried on, but the number of gigs that were going on and the amount of live music that was happening throughout the city declined massively. It has started to come back a little bit in Swansea, for various reasons, and we are starting to see a slight improvement, but, yes, as a general trend, since the year 2000 through to now, a huge decline in gigs and gig tickets. 

Yes, I think it works as a pipeline, in the same way that any industry does. You start off in a small place in a small industry and you slowly get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger—the way any business works and the way the—. One of the things that we've spoken about very often is that we're the research and development section of live music. So, your acts like the big names of the world, the Ed Sheeran—there was a time, 2007 through to 2011, when he was playing venues like ours and he learned how to gig and he learned how to hone his sound and learned how to hone his set, and the management and touring crew and his merchandising team all learned how to engage and connect with the audience in that environment. And then they took a step up and they moved on to slightly bigger venues, then they moved up to bigger venues again, then they started playing arenas and places like the Motorpoint Arena, then they go up again and soon enough they're playing stadiums and festival headline slots and whatnot. But it all starts back in venues like Sam's that are 100 capacity, where, on a Thursday night, people are trying things out. They've never heard of Ed Sheeran at that point, they're just paying their £3 to go along and see, hopefully, a great musician and get up close to the stars of tomorrow—to a certain extent. Other times, it doesn't work that way and you're just paying to see a great band who are happy playing venues like that and they don't necessarily want to go on to rule the world. They just want to play great music to people who enjoy it. 

I think you can see, in festival line-ups for the last five years, compared to festival line-ups 15 years ago, the way that music venues and things like that have been closing down has had a massive impact, because the diversity of festival headliners 15 years ago was so much more, for want of a better word. But now you look—. I've got nothing against Coldplay, but they're headlining every festival. I've got nothing against Ed Sheeran, but he's headlining every festival, because there's a serious lack of investment into grass-roots talent, and I think that's a massive thing. It's across the whole of the UK. It's not a Welsh thing at all; it's across the whole of the UK. There is a huge lack of investment into grass-roots music.

Further to that point, as Sam says, if you do look at festival line-ups for the last 10 years, the number of DJs that are now playing and the amount of dance music that's being played just by DJs, rather than having bands on, because the bands aren't necessarily there, or haven't got to a point where they're being recognised as being there. You end up with DJ after DJ after DJ after DJ. 

The one question I didn't ask in the last session was about whether the YouTube generation are able to develop their talent that way, so instead of finding a gig space to practice they would already be uploaded on SoundCloud, or whatever, so that they don't feel they need to get the grass roots done; they can just skip that bit and go to the bigger venues.

It's not possible to skip that bit, because I think if you try to do your first live gig in front of 5,000 people instead of 100 people, you're just not going to do it; you're going to take one look at it and go, 'I can't do that.' 

That would be a fairly terrible gig.

I was in a band for a long time, and you do the smaller gigs. They get you ready for the bigger gigs, and if anybody who's got this massive YouTube career thinks they can suddenly walk on stage in front of 5,000 people, they just won't do it. I did it myself; we got offered a gig and it was four times our normal crowd and I literally stood at the side of the stage shaking for 20 minutes, and everyone was like, 'Sam, get on.' 'No, I can't.' We did it in the end, but, yes, you need grass roots; you need your 100-cap venues and your 200-cap venues, and you need to work that ladder. 

Yes, I'd echo that exact point. I think any band that tries to jump straight into a gig of 500 to 1,000 people would come off pretty badly; they would have to pretty talented. That would be crazy. I'd love to see it. But what you said about the YouTube generation, even people that you see having great success on the digital media, they're still playing, they'll still come through the venues that we're running, the venues that we're talking about today. They will still do that first tour because, like I said, it's about learning how your act works on stage and learning how the audience receive you. Way more than just engaging with the audience, there is a training element to it. So, they will still come through, I think. 

That's useful to know. Yes, I've been there as well, so I know what you're saying. My last question will just be on the mapping exercise from the Welsh Government that they have commissioned a company to do, to look at all the venues and to see what's happening. From the last evidence session, we didn't hear that they'd been engaged at all yet, so I'm just wondering if you have and if you think it's useful.

I haven't heard from them.

I don't know what you're talking about. [Laughter.] 

I know it's happening, but no-one's been in touch with us in any way, shape or form.

Okay. Well, that's worrying, again, to hear, but we'll chase it and see. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Some questions about available advice and support for the music industry. In general in Wales, do you believe that it's adequate, that there's enough advice available? 

No. 

No, I wouldn't have said so. Certainly nothing—. Not that I'm aware of in Wales. In recent years—and I believe you're going to be talking to them in a couple of weeks—there's an organisation called the Music Venue Trust that's been started. I genuinely can't sing their praises enough, really.

No, they are fantastic.

Absolutely brilliant, and they've come on leaps and bounds and strides for music venues across the UK. It started off as being in London, trying to save some grass-roots music venues in London, and it kind of exploded from there. The need for it is so incredibly obvious. 

They've done so much for me personally—well, our business personally. I don't know how we'd have got through the last five years without their advice. So, in terms of, 'Is it coming from Wales?', no. The advice is out there, but it's not coming from Wales. The only thing we've ever had advice on was two years ago we went community owned, and Community Shares Wales were phenomenal. They were absolutely incredible, but that's not culture and music-based advice; that's general business advice. But they were out-of-this-world amazing.  

I'm not aware of any advice that exists within Wales, apart from the other venues and the network of owners. If you have got questions, my phone is always on, people can ring me or ring other venues, but certainly not from a Government point of view. I'm not aware of any, no. 

No. The Welsh Music Foundation, of course, was in existence, but—

I never, ever had any engagement from them whatsoever, despite asking them for help and advice many, many times. [Laughter.] 

You've been told. [Laughter.]

I haven't either, but I have only been a venue owner for four years. 

I am not a fan of the Welsh Music Foundation as it previously existed, because as far as I could work out, when it was in existence, it did nothing for people that it didn't particularly already want to be doing things for. That's—.

Okay. That's quite clear.

Sorry.

No, no worries. We want to hear it as it is, as you see it. The Arts Council of Wales—obviously they've got a big role to play in terms of supporting art, culture and activity in Wales. What would you say about the Arts Council of Wales and the way that their advice and support operates? Does it provide helpful advice to music venues?

I'm going to say I don't know who Arts Council of Wales are or how to access them.

No. You've had no—

No contact. I know people who work within theatre who know people within the Arts Council of Wales, but in terms of the music industry, no, they don't engage at all.

Have you ever sought any advice from them?

We have, but that was very much via a friend who knew someone from the Arts Council of Wales who came in and had a pint. There was nothing formal about it. It was: I put in a bid for this and I made friends with this person and then they came in for a pint. But we've never done anything formally.

So, you've never formally approached them.

No. 

Why is that, then? Is that something—?

I don't even know the route to do that; it's not something that's ever clearly mapped, I think.

Okay.

My only knowledge, really, of the Arts Council of Wales—and, again, I've never had any direct contact with them—is, again, through the Music Venue Trust. I know that Arts Council England have recently given some money—I think £1 million, I believe.

It was £1.6 million, I think.

It's £1.6 million they're going to be investing into specifically grass-roots music venues, because previously none of the money from Arts Council England went to grass-roots music venues. There was a campaign run by the Music Venue Trust to get Arts Council England to do that. And I already know venues in England that are benefiting from that.

At the moment, I know that that same thing isn't available for arts or venues through the Arts Council of Wales, and the only reason I know that, again, is because the Music Venue Trust have said that one of their next projects is to get the Scottish Arts Council and the Arts Council of Wales to agree the same thing. So, hopefully.

Okay. Well, given what you've said, I hesitate to ask the next question, but I'll ask it anyway. In terms of Arts Council for Wales grant funding, then, and how they distribute their available resources between different art forms, between music venues and artists in general—you may not have had much experience of this— but what would you say about your view on how they distribute their funding and what needs to change?

Honestly, I'm probably in absolutely no position to answer because 'I don't know' is the general gist. My—I can't think of the word I'm looking for—but my general sense is that it would go more towards theatre-type projects, Welsh language projects, classical music and opera, would be my sense of it. I don't know if that's true at all, so I'm in no position to comment, but that would be my sense of it.

I think you're not getting any is the thing.

Yes. I think that's my feeling, as well, in terms of we've never received a grant from the Arts Council of Wales, and I don't know any venue owner in Wales that has. Therefore, the money, as far as I know, is not coming into grass-roots music venues at all.

Again, have you thought about the possibilities? Obviously, you wouldn't have then made any contact with the Arts Council of Wales just to find out whether there was any possibility.

No. There are always people around at these Music Venue Trust mixers and things, and someone says, 'That lady works for the Arts Council of Wales', and you start speaking to them, and then they start telling you about this incredibly lengthy bid process that will take up all of your time. And one of the things Music Venue Trust have done in England is they have somebody from Arts Council England to help the pubs write the bids. Because we've never written funding bids; we don't know what we're doing, we're just people who used to be in bands who sell beer and put bands on. That's what we are. If you put a massive funding application in front of anyone that runs a grass-roots music venue, it's like a wall that says, 'Yes, this isn't for you; this isn't right.' The application process is just, 'no'.

I did once spend a few days trying to navigate a website that was specifically about funding options within Wales. It was for everything: it was employment, it was for everyone, and it covered all areas of funding, and I became incredibly frustrated with the navigation of the thing. But, again, that wasn't for a specific task—that was just a foray into funding and then I went on a little adventure. I think we were looking for funding for a lift for the venue, and I was like, 'Well, maybe there are options there.'

Did you find any, because I need a lift? [Laughter.]

No, I didn't.

John Griffiths is an Assembly Member for Newport, so, afterwards, you can talk about how he can help you to get funding for a lift. [Laughter.] Anyway, have you any more questions?

That's fine, thanks.

Okay, David Melding.

Thanks, Chair. I've got a question on planning. Another colleague will talk about licensing, so I just want to look at zoning, basically, and this whole issue of the agent of change principle and the difficulty of developments going around of a more residential character that, you know, get built and then they impose sound restrictions after the fact. Are you facing problems or has the situation got a lot better since we have moved to this agent of change principle in planning?

Is the agent of change principle in law now?

Well, I think it's guidance, rather than—. It's not, as I understand it, anyway, a firm legal principle.

Personally, we moved venues two years ago, and we had to spend £17,000 sound-proofing the previous venue because a lady moved in three doors up and decided she didn't like the noise. But then, with the new venue, we are now smack bang in the middle of the high street, and there are no developments around us, and, as far as I know, none are planned. So, for me, I can't really answer that question. But, I know that when I was in that situation, previous to agent of change, it was an absolute nightmare.

I would say that, luckily, it's not something that I've yet had to deal with. I'm sympathetic to city centres, but they are changing, and we are becoming a more city-centre-living city, or certainly Swansea is anyway—there's the development of houses and flats everywhere. The fear is real. That's very true. You see somewhere previously where there was no building, and you think, 'Oh, that's safe, they couldn't possibly put a building there', and all of a sudden there's a block of flats, and you think to yourself, 'Hang on, am I going to have a problem here?'

So, the fear is real. What I would say is that, actually, it stops you investing in your venue. You don't want to make changes, and you don't think about, necessarily, a long-term future or a plan for your venue, because, as Sam said, that's literally—. Previously, that could be all it took, someone moving in three doors up and suddenly deciding that, actually, you're disturbing their peace and, all of a sudden, it literally can just bring you to the ground in a very scary way. 

Yes, with our sound-proofing we were lucky that it was able to be done, but there have been situations before now where somebody's decided to turn what was previously an empty building into a flat that's above a music venue and then that music venue has had to shut down, because there's no way you can sound-proof when your bedroom is above the stage. That's not physically possible.

There was a venue in Brighton. It had been open for—I think it was one of the longest running venues in the country—70-something years. The landlord developed the upstairs into flats and, five months later, they closed the doors and were done, because they had the sound-proofing experts in and they said, 'We just can't do it. It's not physically possible.'

Would you like to see, perhaps, a concept of cultural zoning, where we say a certain part of a town or a city is going to contain these venues for live music? There could still be residential development around, but it's for those that are going to be comfortable living adjacent to the night-time economy. Do you see any value in that?

I don't like the idea of cultural zoning.

Yes, I think you're limiting it then. In principle, it's a great idea. In principle, you're saying, 'Right, okay, that's protected', in the same way that you say that the Gower is protected. I understand the principle behind it. But, you're then also saying, 'The cultural things have to take place there. You can't do culture over there; you have to do culture there.' I think that's the wrong idea, and I think that it's the wrong way to fix the problem. I don't think that saying, 'Right, we're going to have culture over here, rather than everywhere' is necessarily the answer. I think the thing to do would be to turn around and go, 'Oh, look, there's something cultural there, let's see if we can protect it', rather than saying, 'Let's ring-fence it and keep it in this zone.'

I think agent of change becoming law rather than guidance would automatically protect cultural zones and also protect residents, in the way that if there is a massive residential area, agent of change then stops someone opening a nightclub, because there they are the agent of the change, and that's how it works, and I think the beauty of agent of change is it protects what already exists without—

Okay. So, the cultural safeguarding concept is a stronger one.

Yes.

Thank you.

Time is short, Chair, so perhaps I could condense my questions just to two, really. The licensing system is not yet—I emphasise 'yet'—within the control of the Assembly, but, in terms of licensing, what are the main issues that you face, perhaps the obstacles that you face? And the second issue is linked, in a way, and that's the Live Music Act 2012. What effect does that have on your businesses?

I don't have any issues with Newport licensing; they're wonderful. They are really brilliant people whom, if I go to them and I want to do something, they will go out of their way to find a—. As long as I don't turn up and say, 'I want to sell cocaine', or something, if it's something that is legal to do, they will go out of their way to fit that into my licence.

That's useful to know [Laughter.].

I couldn't think of any other examples there [Laughter.]. But, yes, if I go to them and I say, 'I want to put on a 14-plus gig because this gig has—', they will find a way to make that work with me. When we moved venues, we were in a—. There's a word for it, but it's over-saturation of licensed premises, and you weren't supposed to be able to get a licence, but I went in and I showed them why ours was culturally important, and they overrode that and issued our licence. They're great—Newport City Council licensing are brilliant.

I have to echo the same thing about Swansea. We've got a great relationship with the Swansea licensing team. We've never had any real issues to speak of. And they understand—. It might just be that I'm lucky with the people who are currently working there, but they understand the importance of live music and what we do and, again, why it is culturally significant and why we, for example, occasionally do a 14-plus event where kids who are 14, 15, 16 and 17 can come in with dad for their first ever gig, and I'm still able to sell beer at that event, but it's in a very controlled manner and a very controlled environment.

Did you say 'come in with dad for their first gig'?

Yes, come in with dad for their first gig.

Okay. Times have changed since I was a teenager [Laughter.].

The number of dads who love to bring in their young kids for The Choirboys and old rock bands—they love it.

I think what I find with licensing is, as long as you engage with them and speak to them and build up a relationship with them, then they will look after you. Because, obviously, if you don't go to your licensing officers and introduce yourself and say, 'I run this place and I want to do this', then, when you suddenly put in this anonymous request on the internet, they have no idea who you are, they have no idea if you're responsible enough to do that. So, the way that I work with Newport is, I know them all really, really well, because I go to the Pubwatch meetings and I engage, and as long as I do that, then I don't have any licensing issues whatsoever.

In terms of the Live Music Act 2012, I don't— . It's a really good question, and the answer is, again, 'I'm not entirely sure'. I haven't seen it have a massive effect on me. What I would say, though, is that I kind of sit on both sides of the argument on this one, where on the one hand, now, someone can run a gig for up to 500 people with absolutely no licensing restrictions at all, where I have lots or some. But then, they're good restrictions; they're there for a good purpose—I understand that. But now, that licence—. They can run that gig without any restrictions whatsoever, whereas I have to pay door staff and spend money on x, y and z. In that sense, it's not great for my venue. Is it better for music? And they're the two sides of that coin—is it good to have that gig somewhere or would we rather it were in a controlled environment? I sit on both sides of that argument, because the gig is happening and it's great because people are going to see music, but I have to spend money that they don't. So, I sit on both sides of the argument on that one, unfortunately. I'm torn.

Yes, on business rates, we've already flagged our concern to you. Has the situation got more difficult since the revaluation in 2017?

Yes.

Yes. I'm very lucky in that mine didn't dramatically rise in the same way that others have. Mine have hit me, there's absolutely no doubt about that, but mine haven't exploded in the same way that those of other venues have. There are venues that have seen huge—50 per cent, 70 per cent, 100 per cent—rises in business rates. Mine didn't explode as much, but, obviously, yes, it's money that I could be spending elsewhere and could be investing in other areas. 

Is it a significant drag or not?

Business rates are obviously a huge part of—. My business rates are now more than my rent, which is, I think, a crazy situation to be in.

Yes, that's interesting. 

I could employ someone else with that money. I could employ two other people with that money.

I think, for me, one of the things is that, as a community benefit society, we should now be entitled to business rate relief of 80 per cent, but, because we have a turnover of more than £100,000, we're automatically excluded from that, but turnover isn't profit. Profit is pennies. So, I feel maybe it should be based on profit, not turnover, your rate reduction exclusions.

It's always refreshing when a witness answers the next question I was going to ask because, obviously, business rate relief schemes are based on turnover, not profit, and presumably that is a great disadvantage for you. So—

I was advised that a lot of theatres and things like that actually separate their bar from their venue to get around that, but we shouldn't have to be setting up two companies to circumvent relief that realistically we should be entitled to.

Or, indeed, go through the contortions to become a charity, necessarily. I suspect I know the answer to this, but I think you deserve to be asked as you've taken the trouble to come here: should we be looking at a special scheme or at least allowing live music venues to qualify for some sort of relief?

Yes, but I also think it needs to have some incredibly strict guidelines because what you don't need is every pub in Wales suddenly putting on one covers band on a Sunday, calling themselves a music venue and not paying business rates, because that's going to have a huge impact on the income that we need to basically run the country with. If you take away business rates from every local government from every pub, then you're going to lose vital services in other places. There needs to be a quota of original band. There needs to be live music at least three nights a week. And these people, like the people working within the live music venues, for me—because I do this anyway, so everyone else who works in live music venues might be angry—. I feel like you need to be working with encouraging people to get into live music—not just putting bands on, but running workshops and trying to get 14-year-olds to pick up a guitar. Because they're not picking up guitars at the moment, and I think the rate relief should be linked to how much you're putting into the Welsh music industry and the future of Welsh music, not just chucking a band on on a Sunday.

I think Samantha's absolutely right, and, on certain things, for example, in her example of guidelines there, I wouldn't necessarily qualify at the moment, which is absolutely fine, and it's the way it should be. Because I've had to diversify the venue and, in order to make it survive, I've had to do things that I wouldn't necessarily not want to do, but are different to, maybe, our original mandate or where we'd like to be. And, as a result, we put on, to a certain extent, less live music now than we did 10, 15 years ago.

Yes. I think that's something a lot of live music venues have had to do over the last five years. Personally, I don't like my pub on a Saturday after 11 because it's not what I set up to do. You're on the high street, it's full of people who just want to get drunk. They don't want to watch music; they just want to get drunk. And I want people to watch music and have nice beers, but we need their money to pay the bills, so I'm never going to turn them down. We're an inclusive venue, but at the same time I don't want to clean up sick at 3 a.m. It's not why I opened a music venue.

One of the things that happens quite quickly, I found, when you start to run a live music venue is that you start to feel almost a responsibility towards—and I hate the word 'scene', but I'm going to use it—your local music scene and to the musicians and to the kids that are in it, and suddenly you start thinking to yourself, 'Oh, there's this group of metal kids. Now, this metal gig's not going to make me any money but I should really do it because there's no other metal gigs for them to go to', and you start doing things you wouldn't normally do. I mean, we've just had the summer, and through the summer we put on—we tried to put on, no, we did put on—about 22 local shows in the space of a month or month and a half. We called them home town shows, and I think we ended up playing 70 local bands, all from Swansea, all from different backgrounds, all different styles, all different genres. And it was a way of getting the bands to engage with each other, but also a way for them to earn some money so that they had money in their coffers to spend on band equipment, recording, rehearsal space, et cetera. So, that was 70 bands, £3 to come in, the bands receiving the majority of that money. We had, I think, somewhere in the region of 2,000, 2,200 people come to all of the shows combined, and if you just look at the operational costs of those gigs, on the spreadsheet last week, I worked out that I'd made a profit of £14. But I'm going to do it again next summer, or in January and February, because it's great to engage with these bands. 

I also think, in terms of what you were saying about pressure on the scene, there's a lot of personal pressure, when I, hands up, have been in positions within the business where I've felt we should just close. We're not making any money. We should just close and I should just go get a job somewhere else. I'd get paid a lot more money, I'd have a lot less responsibility. But then you start thinking: where would the bands play? Where would the kids who want to watch live music go? There's a lot of pressure there, I think. You can feel that weighing down when you've had a bad month and you're wondering where your business rates or your rent are coming from this month. You just carry on and you just get through it. The pressure is what keeps most of us open.

I don't think you'll find a music venue anywhere, certainly in Wales, but in the country, where they got into this to become a millionaire. None of us have got dreams of becoming the next company that owns 16 live music venues across the UK. We're just trying to keep our venues open and keep a roof over everyone's head, and, again, to a certain extent, not go out and get a proper job. But there isn't an awful lot of money in it. It's not something that anyone's going to make money doing, really, at the moment as it stands.

Diolch. That's all we've got time for, I'm afraid, just due to timings and things going over. So, thank you very much for coming in, and if there's anything that you think you didn't say, please e-mail us or get in touch and we'll share what we suggest and hopefully you can engage further with us as a committee.

I look forward to it. Absolute pleasure, thank you very much.

Good luck with all your ventures. 

Thank you.