National Assembly for Wales

Simon, do you want to add to that? 

Okay, yes. So, I think there are two levels, whether you're talking about studio space or studios in general. My job as head of drama Wales is to make as many shows as possible out of Roath Lock and to build their drama slate, building on top of, obviously, Dr Who, which is running at the moment, and we have Casualty and Pobol y Cwm, which are in Roath Lock but in a slightly different structure. So, I think, going forward, everything I have to do is to find commissioners to buy into what we're making and to make more shows that are locally produced, produced out of Roath Lock and produced in other studios around as Roath Lock will not be capable of making innumerable shows. 

Now, I think the challenge of anything in the development structure is to get people to buy into what we're making. That is a huge challenge. I have a brilliant team that I've now assembled in Roath Lock and that is based out of Wales, so they're working with Welsh writers and across-the-board Welsh talent. We're working with, obviously, the BBC through Nick Andrews' team in BBC Wales and through Ben Irving's team in network—    

You're not in a position where you need to turn things down because there's not enough space—I mean the actual physical space. You still can—

At the moment, Dr Who is going to different spaces, but we are—. I think, at the moment there is probably sufficient space for what is going on. Obviously, the nature of these—. You know, if everybody—. Obviously, Bad Wolf is making a lot of stuff and they have a huge studio. There are a lot of people coming here to make things now. If everybody is making it at the same time, I'm sure there will be a problem, but these things all operate in cycles, and, at the moment, for BBC Studios, I'm very much at the development stage of a cycle because we launched only a year ago. Dr Who is now up and running, but in the main, generally, you tend to look at a two to three-year cycle for making new shows from a flat start point. So, I will be able to tell you in a year or two's time whether or not we need more studio space. But, I think, as I say, at the moment, I couldn't necessarily possibly comment, in the whole, for the industry here.

I struggle, really, to understand exactly what is happening when you've been thrown to the wolves of competition now—you've been thrown to a sort of open market, a deregulated market. What are the main opportunities for you that arise out of that? We know obviously there are going to be a lot of challenges and difficulties, but what are the real opportunities for you? What are the opportunities for Wales out of the changes?

I would say, in general, it means that we are not limited. As an in-house department, yes, we had a guarantee of 50 per cent across the board, but we could only make for the BBC. There was a certain amount of co-production of work before, but we are now in a marketplace whereby we have proliferating platforms. At the moment, everybody wants drama, whether they be Apple or Amazon or Netflix, or just terrestrial channels or digital channels. There's an enormous marketplace out there, and that does mean everything about the structure of what they've set up as the regional and the hub structure of BBC studios; I'm head of drama Wales and everything I do has to be made here. My creative challenge is to service however many platforms and however many channels I possibly can. But, I am geographically located here and I need to use the skills in the teams here.

I think the other thing I'd say, just a cultural point, which is this point about being thrown to the wolves: this is the most exciting, dynamic time in terms of high-end television production we have ever seen, and if you—

Why do you say that? What are the—

Because of the growth in high-end television across the world, because of the emergence of new players like Amazon and Apple and Netflix, the demand for high-end television skills is at an unprecedented level. It's not an accident that Bad Wolf has been created, it's because there is a significant commercial opportunity out there. The point I would make in the context of BBC Studios is, if you are a talented writer or a talented producer, you want the widest possible market to aim your services at. So, if we go back to two years ago, if you were working in Roath Lock and you had a brilliant drama idea, if the BBC drama commissioner didn't share your enthusiasm for that idea, that idea was gone. Now, when Simon and his team are working on ideas and developing their ideas, they can take the ideas to the BBC, to Channel 4, to Amazon, they can look at the global marketplace and see opportunities. So, clearly, there's risk in opening up to competition, but right now I would say the market has never been a more exciting space.

And you obviously start from a very—I won't say privileged, but in many ways as a market leader within that field, because of the nature of the history, but the challenge is whether you can actually maintain that or not.

I think it's worth making the point that I think the context has changed dramatically in the last two or three years. If you look at the BBC's expenditure on television content, in the last year it was around £2 billion; if you look at Netflix's budget this year, it is in the order of £8 billion. So, the old days of seeing the BBC as a giant in the production ecology—the game has changed. So, we need to be more agile, we need to be a lot more entrepreneurial, and I think it's very important that the BBC has a successful production arm, because the success of BBC Studios means we can reinvest back into content for our public services. But, if you're going to attract talent into our production arm, they need to be able to see the entire global space as their marketplace.

Our interest, obviously, is the development of the industry and the status of the industry within Wales. Are there particular challenges to that? Because BBC Studios, for example, can see its interests lying in terms of what demands are made by some of these companies you mentioned, like Amazon and Netflix and so on.

I think there are always challenges, but in the conversations I've had with BBC Studios—and I'm sure Simon's got a perspective on this—I don't think it's a binary discussion about whether Studios is interested in Wales or interested in the global market; Studios is interested in growing and it's interested in attracting talent. I think, in the work that I've seen Simon developing over recent months, there is real talent here, there are really terrific storytellers, and if you've got the right story, as we've seen with the success of Un Bore Mercher and Keeping Faith, when you've got the right storytellers in the right place, you can suddenly go from a place where we used to have just Welsh hits that we kind of kept to ourselves, to these now being hits that can roll out internationally. That's really exciting.

I read your background paper. In terms of Welsh Government, in terms of the role of this committee, which is to focus on the industry, on the jobs, the training, all the things that go around it and to influence Welsh Government, what are the things that you think could be done by Welsh Government that would actually assist in that growth, in that development? What are the things that we could do? If there are things that we could specifically do, what should they be?

Is that to me or is that to all of us?

Well, to all of you. 

I think there are several things that the Government have done that are very welcome—you know, the investment in the sector, I think, is welcome. The biggest point I'd make is back to the point I was talking about—feast and famine. When you mentioned the financial constraints we're under—we are under financial constraints, and why don't we make more films? Because we haven't got the money to make more films. We invest what is a sizeable element of our budget in dramas and we've had some very great successes in that, but we have to cut our cloth.

I think over the past five years, particularly from S4C, the Hargreaves report effectively showed that without S4C's budget—£67 million a year, £19 million from the BBC—it would be difficult for the independent sector to survive in Wales. I think, over the past five years, we have had to look to bigger suppliers providing more critical mass and more efficiencies because our commissioning rates are probably about a quarter of what you'd see BBC or Channel 4 spending.

What that's meant for the Welsh economy is that, yes, there's less money going in, but also you've seen consolidation of the industry. Now, that's good and bad. It's good in the fact that we get efficiencies; we get economies of scale; we get strong companies who can provide security of supply for us. What it also means is that the freelance sector, for example, in Wales, is not what it was. A lot of the companies have taken those people on and the amount of freelancers who are available to come in when there are large film projects is not what it was.

I think one of the things that, at S4C, we're struggling with at the moment, is how do we reinject a vibrancy into the economy that actually allows the smaller production companies to gain commissions, to be able to pitch ideas and also to be able to generate that amount of work that allows a freelance sector also to survive? I think that's one of the big challenges for us. I think one of the things I've probably been looking forward to is working to the Government on, you know, what is the industrial strategy, rather than having what are very welcome but relatively passive investment vehicles, into, you know, 'What is the structure for Wales?' We will always, all of us, have the independence of editorial control over what we commission, but there are then questions about how we sustain the economy, how we sustain the industry and how we locate that industry. So, I think those are the areas I'd probably be looking for in the future. I don't know if Amanda wants to—

No, I absolutely agree. I think any sort of broadcaster benefits hugely from having a very effective creative ecosystem. That means small players, big players, people who come from publisher-broadcaster models, who are owned by other broadcasters. It's diversity, it's equality of opportunity and it's supporting talent growth and new talent that really matters to us as a broadcaster. It's having that ecosystem that enables us to take risks where we should, to experiment where we should.

I think that in terms of what the Government could do to support that, as Owen was saying, any support is very welcome whether it comes in the form of funding or whether it comes in the form of a sort of industrial strategy that looks holistically at the sector and talks about how it can feed a really vibrant broadcasting community. I think clarity, equality and purpose would be the three things I would say would be really important to bear in mind when strategising for supporting the industry: clarity in terms of making sure that processes, accessibility to those processes and the speed of processes are effective and in line with what the industry needs; equality in terms of making sure that there is equal opportunity for all to buy into and to try for those funds or support; and I think purpose comes back to what Owen was saying, which is that sense of how it feeds into the bigger economy, which then feeds our place, essentially, as a broadcaster in the UK and beyond. 

It is an enormous industry—the number of companies and the number of people it employs is actually quite phenomenal. I wasn't aware of the actual scale and I suspect many members of the public aren't aware of it. If there were one or two things you'd say that Government has really got to get its act together on, what would you say they were? What's your wish list of the one or two things that you would say, 'This is what you've got to do'? Or is that too simplistic?

Yes, and I suppose I'll come back to saying it's working with the broadcasters to create an industrial strategy.

Just to add to that, I think I'm always wary of looking to Government to find what the sector needs. In a sense, I think there's more we can do as a sector to come together and articulate the particular challenges. I think if you look at the last few years, the key interventions that I think Welsh Government have made are around building infrastructure and capacity. I've listened to various evidence sessions, and obviously there are different people who have a different view on whether they are focused on the right things. All I would say is, if you travel around the UK, probably with the exception of Northern Ireland, people look jealously on the scale of infrastructure that has been created in Wales, and therefore our ability to attract major producers here and major productions here is greater than many other parts of the UK. But I do think to sustain that and to grow that, but also to ensure that we've got new companies and new talent coming through, the skills challenge is probably the critical issue, and I'm not sure that's for the Government to solve. It can clearly support in terms of the funding, but I think that's also for the sector to drive and really to work through what is needed. But it is the skills and the people challenge that I think will be the critical one in terms of maintaining the momentum of recent years.

That's helpful.

Yes. Some of my questions are to the BBC, if that's okay, but perhaps you can come in when I'm talking about productions here. 

The first thing I wanted to quickly ask, going back to your point about independent companies now finding things quite difficult in some cases, has the creation of BBC Studios yet created a space where more independent companies are getting commissions from the BBC, or possibly co-production? Or is it a bit early to say yet?

Well, two things have happened at the same time. So, firstly, you've seen the creation of BBC Studios. The second thing we've seen is significant new investment into Welsh production—as in, English language Welsh television. So, what we've seen over the last 18 months is a quite dramatic increase in our expenditure in the independent sector, partly because of open competition, partly because we've got more money to spend. So, if you take the last three or four days, there was the Port Talbot Balls of Steel programme on Monday with Folk Films, Darlun's series on dementia last night, and, I think, Folk again with The Family Farm. A lot of the significant new investments we're making in landmark television are being run by the independent sector. So, there is still a significant body of work that BBC Studios is doing, and they're busy working on other projects that I'm sure they'll bring to us in due course, but, yes, there's clearly been quite a significant change in our ability to commission at scale. One of the other things that we've done, partly because of the competitive pressures, is move our tariffs. So, we've very significantly increased our factual tariffs, particularly, and that was with two objectives in mind: one was to raise the bar in terms of the ambition and scale of what we were delivering on screen, and the second was to see far more of our productions here in Wales also being shown on UK screens.

I'm going to ask you about that in a second.

I think we've said before the committee before that in terms of the new productions with the new money, we'd expect 80 per cent of those to transfer to network, and we're on track to deliver that. I mean, Hidden, which is obviously the version of Craith, which has already been shown on S4C, will air both on BBC One Wales and BBC Four. Given the concerns I know there are generally and within this committee around the portrayal and representation of Wales on network services, I think that's got to be a real priority for us. But we're seeing, across the board—. The Family Farm, showing in Wales at the moment, will air on BBC Two in the coming weeks. Time and time again now, we're seeing what were regarded as local productions immediately transferring onto network, and that's as it should be.

Thank you. As I said, I'm going to develop that a little bit further in a minute. I wanted to ask S4C then, if the independent sector is picking up more commissioning from the BBC—I'm not talking about co-commissioning now—does that mean you've got fewer places to go when you're looking to commission Welsh language programmes?

It's interesting because in one sense we're both collaborators and competitors with the BBC, and that's quite a healthy place to be sometimes. And not just with the BBC; it means that we must collaborate and work with other broadcasters. We're already talking to Channel 4 and Channel 5 about certain projects and co-producing with them. So, our horizons are very broad. One of the challenges is that we have less money to spend than other broadcasters, which comes back to the fact that we have to be inventive. That can sometimes be—. That can sometimes mean that we have to be more inventive, which, in itself, is a good creative place to be. I'm very, very proud of the fact that Un Bore Mercher is an S4C original, and that that was developed to full eight scripts before any other broadcaster was involved. Similarly, with Craith, we're in a position where we have no choice but to take very measured and calculated risks, and that means that, actually, we're in a very creative place sometimes. So, it's interesting; we have to find ways of working with what we've got. We have to find ways of being inventive and collaborative in order to be able to compete. But we're not doing too badly.

No, no. Okay, thank you. That'll lead me to my next question, then. Because obviously you collaborate on some commissions; I understand that. BBC, you might remember when we were having a previous inquiry here that we were a little bit concerned that the renewed charter was placing a target of 5 per cent spend and 5 per cent production in Wales as part of the charter, for BBC Wales. At the time, this committee was told we needn't worry about that because spend was 7.8 per cent and, actually, 5 per cent felt like a floor rather than a ceiling, but in that period of time, that 7.8 per cent spend has gone down to 5.8 per cent. I'm encouraged by what you've just said in the sense that there's more production being made here and that will be networked, but is there an explanation, apart from the fact that you don't have much money to make drama—we accept that—for that drop last year?

Yes. It dropped last year because there was no Doctor Who series.

It's as straightforward as that.

Yes. The annual report will be published by the BBC in July, but I'm safe to say that level will have increased again.

Okay. Are you hoping it's going to be over 7.8 over the course of time, even if it's just stuff you're doing, or in collaboration? I don't mind.

Well, it's worth separating these two things. So, the collaboration that we're doing, for example, on Craith or Un Bore Mercher is BBC Wales money. So, that wouldn't show in those statistics that you're citing. Those statistics are about network expenditure in Wales. But, occasionally, during the cycle of Doctor Who over the last 10 years, there have been years where there's been a fallow year, if you like, and because that particular year that you're looking at was a year when Doctor Who didn't air, those numbers are missing from that year. So, you do get some—to refer to Simon's point earlier—you do get cycles, but in every single year since these numbers were set, BBC Wales has exceeded the target by between 15 and 20 per cent, and it will be beyond that in the next annual report.

Well, that's good to hear. Is this data actually available outside the annual report? Because I think we did ask for it—not from you, from Tony Hall—and we never got that.

Well, it's published in the annual report every year. So it's—

This is on portrayal data, Suzy. 

This is specifically on portrayal. 

Sorry. I thought you were talking about the expenditure.

Yes, I am, but—

So, on portrayal, there are tonnes of projects, so I'm very happy to list them all, but you'd probably find that a little tedious. But, as I say, more and more of the programmes that we're making in Wales are being shown on network. We're seeing network productions like Requiem also based in Wales. So, I think, compared to where we were two or three years ago—and we could probably have counted those projects on the fingers of one hand—I think we're in a much healthier state. But if the committee would like a note in terms of the projects that have aired over the recent months, I'm very happy to provide that.

It would be quite helpful, for us to attest that. I mean, I know that was about portrayal—

But can I just—? Sorry to intervene. 

No, that's fine. 

What we actually asked was—. Sorry, Lord Hall said that

'Every network genre in television now has a portrayal objective. That’s monitored quarterly, the analysis is looked at with Rhodri and other directors from nations with Charlotte Moore'.

We didn't want a list; we wanted to try and get an idea of that data.

With respect to the committee, I don't think that would be appropriate for us to share. So, to be clear what that is—

That's the first time we've heard that.

Well, let me explain what that is. So, every month, or every other month, we look at what productions from Wales in terms of portrayal we're developing—so, what are the ideas that are on the table? We look at a list of productions that have been green-lit—as in the money has been secured for them, they're about to go into production—and then we look at the productions that have aired. So, I'm very happy to provide the committee with a list of productions that have aired, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me, given the commercial confidentiality of those conversations, but also in terms of our relationship with the key independents we work with—. I think it's far better we concentrate on what has been broadcast than in terms of commissioning plans that are developing internally to the BBC.

Can I ask, finally, in terms of portrayal—I suppose you can both answer this, actually—what are your criteria or what are your definitions of portrayal? So, for example, for something like Keeping Faith, I would say that probably does portray Wales very well, even if it's not a specifically Welsh story, but where's your line?

Maybe I'm a little bit simplistic on this stuff. I think we know portrayal when we see it. So, I don't think there's any doubt that Keeping Faith is a portrayal drama. You can get into wonderful cycles of debate around these. Alex Jones on The One Show or Huw Edwards on the 10 o'clock news—is that portrayal of Wales? I would argue not; it's fantastic that they're on air every night in terms of Welsh talent, but for me, it's about where stories are set and what they're inspired by. That's, if you like, the definition—

It's to avoid the Line of Duty argument.

Line of Duty is not portrayal, because Line of Duty is shot in Northern Ireland, but it is very much an English city in terms of its setting. Casualty is shot in Wales, but is very much based in Bristol—Holby was always Bristol. So, I would never claim that those pieces, and I don't think the BBC would ever claim that those pieces, were portrayal.

That's what I was hoping you were going to say. Thank you.

Perhaps the other aspect on the portrayal bit is the inter-Wales bit. There's a linguistic angle to some of the commissions that we make, and Bang was probably a good example of this. We do tend to see that where the drama, for example, is shot, you tend to get a greater audience from that area of Wales than you would otherwise. I think Bang is a good example, because we struggle sometimes; linguistically Wales struggles in that area. I think it was a statement on behalf of S4C and others that we're trying to get to the areas of Wales that have been less represented in some respects, linguistically. I think Bang was a great example, where we managed to break through in the Port Talbot area, and we brought new audiences to the channel. So, I think that, even within Wales sometimes, portrayal is quite important.

That's an interesting point. Thank you for that. Diolch. 

I would also say that that is one of the big things that we're doing at the moment in BBC Studios Wales here. A huge part of my development list is to develop shows that are based here with Welsh writing talent—Welsh talent across the board—and showing Welsh lives and getting that onto network television or more regional television across the board, but telling stories that do resonate with the Welsh audience.

Mick Antoniw.

[Inaudible.]—just the importance of the ownership, I suppose, almost the banking of the intellectual property of all these ideas and things that are coming through. Is that something that is an area of growth? What is its value? Is it an indication in terms of the growth of the industry within Wales? How does it affect the—?

From a BBC perspective, there are certainly projects where the IP potential is far greater. We need to remember that with most productions, the IP essentially sits with the independent producer. So, in the case of Craith or Un Bore Mercher, it'll be the production company that is largely driving the IP potential off the back of that. But I think the globalisation of the market means that it's much easier than it used to be in terms of taking product to market and finding buyers, because just the proliferation of services internationally means that that's a much bigger opportunity. 

I think there is a challenge here. I think that what we're seeing, in terms of the consolidation of the independent sector, both in Wales and the UK, is far more—. I think I'm right in saying that only about 40 per cent of the independent sector now in the UK is UK-owned, because we've seen a level of multinational and global growth, and we need to watch that. There's nothing wrong—

That's things like Netflix and things like that, is it?

Well, it's not so much that, but if you look at the big independents, or what we used to term the big independent businesses, a lot of them are being purchased by broadcasters, or what were traditionally broadcasters, and they become vertically integrated. You see a lot of smaller, very successful independent production companies in the UK being bought by large production companies, internationally—European or US. That's a sign of the vibrancy of the market, but, of course, if you end up with fewer, larger suppliers and their focus is exclusively on international markets and not on our own cultural requirements here, there is a danger there. So, the answer to that is not to moan about it; I think the answer is how do you stimulate the sector to make sure you've got sufficient indigenous businesses that are growing their own IP, their own talent, their own ideas, to complement the international market.

Okay, thank you.

Siân Gwenllian.

On the basis of what you've just said, what would you be expecting the Welsh Government's response to the UK creative sectors deal to look like?

I think what I welcome in that deal is a recognition that more needs to be done to support creative activity and creative growth outside of London and the south-east. So, to take one example, the funding that is now being provided through the Arts and Humanities Research Council to support creative clusters right across the UK, and the recognition that clusters require support and underpinning and the scale of money that's being provided for that, I think, is a real opportunity, and I know Wales and Cardiff are putting a significant bid together to be one of those successful clusters. I really hope they're successful, because I think the amount of research funding that will bring into Wales, and the focus on skills, and the focus on innovation, I think, could all be very, very strong catalysts, in terms of driving this forward.

Would you have a similar response?

Yes. I think what's interesting about the idea of the creative cluster is that it recognises the need to create a legacy, a gwaddol, a sense of—

Thank you. You've partially answered where I was going, but in regard to support from Welsh Government, time and time again we hear that we don't want Welsh Government to be telling the sector what to do—and that's absolutely right. What is it that you want Welsh Government to do, as a specific, to be able to support the sector? You mentioned possibly more support in terms of funding or advice around the creative cluster bits, but what is your vision of what you would like Welsh Government to be doing to enable this in the private sector? 

A lot of the things I think have landed well. They've clearly focused on infrastructure development, and like for like with most of the regions or the nations of the UK, Wales is now ahead of the game. I think in terms of supporting the independent sector, in a sense you've heard from the producers and they're the experts, because, as Amanda was saying, we keep largely out of those commercial discussions, because they're driven by the independent sector, but having a very clear offer to the independent sector, a really transparent offer in terms of what is available, and being able to execute those schemes—

Can you articulate what you mean by 'a very clear offer'? 

Well, I suppose one of the things that struck me, listening to the producers talking, was that there still seems to be an element of confusion about what actually the offer is. So, if there is a confusion, then I think clarity on that, for two reasons: one is (a) you want to know what level of support you can achieve and what the criteria are— 

So, just to be clear on what you're talking about, and for others that may be watching, you're talking about clarity in terms of the funding pots that are available, the interface for advice, or is it something related to that?

So, if you are thinking of investing in a production in Wales—. Let's say you are not based in Wales, but you're thinking about—

Okay, so a simple one-stop shop.

So, you're looking at: 'Do I go to Northern Ireland? Do I go to Wales? Do I go to Yorkshire?' The support package that is potentially available, the clarity on what those criteria are and the speed with which those decisions are taken will be quite critical determinants in terms of whether you make the investment here or elsewhere. So, I don't know. I have no experience of bidding for money, so I don't know how effective or not that system is, but I know from speaking to commissioners in London how important that clarity and speed are. But I would say that the critical intervention, I would argue, that is needed is to work with the sector to address the skills squeeze, because we are—. It's a high-quality product we've got, we've got a tonne of demand, and we need to keep pace with that if we're going to maintain growth. 

Diolch. Siân Gwenllian. 

I might ask Simon to come in, because certainly in terms of—

Sorry, Rhianon, but you can carry on afterwards.

In terms of high-end—[Interruption.] In terms of high-end drama production, I think there are some very particular skills challenges. 

In many ways, it's quite a general skills challenge. Across the board in Roath Lock, we train across the board but we have shortages across every single department. We are training people and, obviously, there's an enormous amount of new dramas coming to Wales, which is great and they are high end, but we are struggling to service the ones that we have already. We need to be better at training. We need to have more support in many ways for training. Certainly, there's a huge commitment within BBC Studios to be training as many people as possible, but I think you have to say across the sector—. And it's not just about the people making shows and creatives—roles like script editing are incredibly hard to train people for, and we are finding that they're very hard to source. We need to be, right across the board, finding both the creatives to lead things and, obviously, the people to make these shows, and it's an enormous challenge ahead for us, I think, but it's one that we're embracing. 

In many ways, it's a challenge—. 

You've recognised that there's a particular need for script editors. Within high-end factuals, there's a particular need for executive producers. I think there's a real dearth of those skills—those freelance skills—in Wales. The truth is that an idea commissioned is only as good as the talent that works on it. If we get that right, then we have a real chance to be able to compete on a world stage with world-class content. If we get it wrong, then we can have the best ideas in the world and the best funding in the world, but we're not going to be able to compete. So, I think that a holistic look at how we can work together to recognise where the skills shortages are, where they're likely to be in the future, where that need is most likely to be met, and how that need is most likely to be met, is really the way forward.

If you take factual as an example, Amanda and I are talking with another broadcaster about potentially collaborating, because this is the point about the sector stepping in. As individual broadcasters, there's only so much you can do, but, where you have a shared challenge in terms of skills, I think one of the things we're exploring at the moment is to what extent can broadcasters come together and, in a joined-up way—. Again, Welsh Government may be able to step in and assist with that in terms of some of the funding, but, clearly, we're going to have to drive it as well. But I think there are opportunities for greater joint collective effort on skills development that—. There is a lot of great stuff happening—we're all doing stuff individually—but I suspect there are opportunities to come together.

Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you for that, and in regard—. You mentioned the Celtic brand earlier. I'm very interested in terms of what you said about collaboration and competition. It is the very nature of that beast. In terms of getting it right, a huge theme has been this skills shortage. Whose job is it to fill that skills shortage? I think it seems important that there is a coming together of minds, from what you've just said, in terms of that skills audit that has just been mentioned and discussed. So, how to be strategic about that—? When I asked you earlier about what Welsh Government can do, would you therefore then state that Welsh Government could support the sector in terms of bringing together a skills audit? Is that Welsh Government's job, or is that the sector's job?

I think this is a partnership. It's in the interests of broadcasters to address the skills gap, because, as to Amanda's point, we want to commission the best people and the best-equipped people. It's in the interests of the production sector to get the skills gap sorted because they want to win commissions, and it's in the interests of Welsh Government to support it because they want economic growth and greater employment.

Okay. So, a co-constructed/conducted audit.

It has to be a holistic approach. Data, I think, is a fair challenge. I think actually there is a deficit in terms of our detailed understanding of the sector in Wales. I think there have been a number of attempts or calls to address it. It hasn't really happened. I'm not pointing fingers there. I think, again, this issue of what can Welsh Government do, what can the sector do—we have to do this in a joined-up way. The opportunity is too big not to have everybody pulling together—

So, in terms of strategic leadership, there is a definitive role there for Welsh Government in the bringing together and the facilitation of the sector around this issue.

Well, I think the sector can do its part. To pick up on Rhodri's point, we had a roundtable recently with Teledwyr Annibynnol Cymru—I know you're seeing TAC afterwards—to go through, really, where they're struggling for skills. What we're looking at now is—we can't address all of the issues. So, the skills we can work on, the budgets we have—we have to address the two or three pressing areas, and that's what we'll do over the coming year. I think the role for Government then is to come in and say, 'Look, this is an important sector. This is what we will try and fund and support developing'.

So, in regard to how urgent this is, I've heard in a number of visits—and I believe this committee has also heard—that often we're a victim of our own success, and I've heard previously from different studios, who I won't name, that they really can't cope with any more work because of that skills issue. So, how urgent and pressing is it, bearing in mind that we are in this golden age? We have massive potential, in my view, huge capacity, but then there is that real problem that is almost going to block that exponential growth. How urgent is this skills deficit?

Owen.

I think it is, and it comes back to a point I mentioned earlier on. We spend roughly £80 million or £90 million a year, between us, just on S4C spend. The BBC spend is on top of that again. What we've seen over the past five years is we've seen a consolidation of the industry. The cuts in budgets we've had have meant that we have had to consolidate. It's something, to a degree, we're trying to reverse at the moment. What that's meant is that, effectively, the freelance sector, which is the corpus of people that you really need to come in when these large productions come in—and you need people of quality there—hasn't disappeared, but it's a lot smaller than it used to be.

The challenge is that we can upskill these people—we can provide training, we can provide education, we provide experience—but we need to provide something that's going to give them work all year round. So, I think it's a two-headed beast. Yes, we need to train the people, we need to understand what skills deficits we have, but we also need to work out how we're going to create and sustain that sector to provide a living for these people all the year round.

So, in regard to the importance of a sectoral strategy around this at a high level—obviously co-construction of that is absolutely imperative—that may be of use.

Can I just—

Go on.

Just one example: so, in the last couple of months, Channel 4 has announced it is volunteering that 50 per cent of its production will be out of London, and 17 per cent or 20 per cent—or is it 17 per cent, I can't remember—of its production will be from the three nations. That is a significant shift by Channel 4 from where it was. And, guess what? There's now more demand by Channel 4 for skills and economic activity, creative activity, on the ground in Wales, because those are challenging targets for it. That is a huge opportunity, but, unless you've got the skills story sorted, what you're doing is you're pulling more and more—you're thinning out. In the end, that catches up with you in terms of quality. So, you have to address the supply issue in training if we're going to grab all of these opportunities—the global opportunity, the BBC opportunity, the S4C opportunity and now a very significant Channel 4 opportunity.

So, in regard to, finally, the loss of Creative Skillset Cymru, is there room for a similar type of organisation?

I declare an interest: I was the last chair of Creative Skillset, the advisory group in Wales.

Or is it an old-fashioned notion?

Well, I think it disappeared because the funding dried up. There is now the new deal we've been talking about that's been announced by the UK Government. There's significant funding being overseen by the BFI. So, there is no doubt that there is an opportunity right now to make sure that Wales secures a significant share of that money to drive the skills agenda. Whether you need to recreate the old institution or whether there is a more streamlined convening that we can do within the sector to make sure we press all of the right buttons in the right order—

But, regardless of the animal, the actual notion of its fundamental constitution, in a sense—

I think, without a doubt, with this new BFI money on the table, and given the skills shortage we're talking about, in my view—and I think Pauline talked about this from Ffilm Cymru as well, and Phil as well from the Arts Council of Wales—there is a need to get a co-ordinated story together and make sure that the sector as a whole is speaking with one voice into the BFI.

Okay, thank you.

Mick Antoniw.

Just very quickly, just on that skills issue, we've got the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, we've got the ATRiuM, we've got other bits of work that are going on around here. Is it the model of skills development within Wales, or is it just that there isn't sufficient capacity, or is it just, really, the structure of the process that's not delivering what you need?

That's a good question. 

I think part of it is that university education will get you so far, but it's about other skills that Simon will want, that we will want, in particular. These are skills that are heavily based on experience, they're heavily based on working at a competitive level. So, I think there is something that the sector has to provide as well as the education sector, because the type of skills, actually, we're very short of are of the higher-end level, and that is more difficult, I think, for the universities to actually step in on. 

And—

Sorry, but just on the point that Rhodri mentioned earlier on, the AHRC bid around the creative clusters, for example—some of that activity is what we're seeking to address through that. This is where—back to partnership—the sector, the universities and the production companies themselves can have a big role in trying to fix that.

And I think we need to recognise, in whatever model we create, the industry moves very quickly—its needs change from day to day. So, what is needed now is—. There's a new need next year that we not only need to meet but we need to prepare for. So, as we move into a new sphere of broadcasting where digital broadcasting is going to become ever more prevalent, and short-form content, and new ways of communicating with the audience are needed, then we need to be ahead, not behind the game in terms of planning those skills. We just, as I say, need to be leaders, not followers.

Simon. Did you want to say—?

I would generally agree with most of that. Obviously, it's also in schools, it's making people aware of what they can do, planning ahead a really long time, making sure that people across society are seeing the opportunities ahead. But, yes, it is very much the immediate issues we've got at the moment and planning for as far ahead as possible.

I suppose I wouldn't want the committee to come away from this session thinking there's not a lot happening. There is a huge amount of development and training activity on the ground, and I could list—and I'm sure S4C could—the sheer number of schemes and initiatives we're supporting, with enormous throughput of people each year. It's just that the opportunity and the demand is also astonishing. But I'd hate for you to think we're sitting here passively thinking we've got a skills shortage and wondering what Government can do about it.

We'll say that in the report now, just to annoy you. [Laughter.] Siân Gwenllian.

Oh, I've got to do this quickly. [Laughter.] I just want to go back to the question of portrayal and production activity in Wales with the BBC. I'm trying to work out the Venn diagram bit in the in the middle here. When a BBC network is commissioning work, how do they ensure that that production within Wales element is covered off? Do they tend to come to BBC Wales or even BBC Studios to say, 'What's on your slate? Will that cover us off on our spend in Wales and our production element in Wales target?'

It's not probably the answer you're looking for: it is a mix of all those things.

Oh, no, that's fine. I'm trying to work out the process here.

Requiem, for example, was very much a network—. Commissioners commissioned it, we had no involvement in it, it was purely done through them. Valley Cops, the documentary series, was developed by BBC Three, and they brought it to us and said did we want to co-release it. The Family Farm—we did the development, we went to network and they put some money in. Keeping Faith, if it goes to network, that will have been an S4C origination, with BBC Wales coming in off the back of S4C's support, and hopefully a transfer onto network. So, the models of co-production and co-financing, and how we get portrayal on screen, are many and varied. I suppose the key thing is: are there more Welsh stories on the UK's screens? But there isn't one model that delivers that.

Okay. Because I was asking about the activity in Wales bit at that stage on portrayal. You've said that you have a slate of greenlit productions. Obviously, you can't tell us about those, and that's fine. But when you say 'you', do you mean BBC network or do you mean BBC Wales?

There's a nations and regions division at the BBC, and, obviously, the BBC content division are in charge of all the network television. So, we get together with BBC content, and we get together with the director general, and we go through, quarter by quarter, the projects that we are developing between us that we think will deliver portrayal onto network screens in terms of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. So, it's quite a systematic process: what's in development against each of the genre, what is actually commissioned and greenlit and in production, and also, obviously, what has aired and how it performed.

Okay. So, if an independent company in Wales wanted to go straight to network with a portrayal offer of some description, it would end up in this nations and regions board or forum, anyway, would it, at some point?

It would. So, anything that we develop that the network wants to buy into is on that list. Anything that networks are developing and not talking to us about, maybe, is on that list as well.

That's great. That's what I wanted—

The only thing that's not there is programmes that we're making just for Wales. There are fewer and fewer of those because we're trying to move onto network anyway.

I'm happy to hear that as well. Thank you. I just couldn't get my head around that. Thanks.

Gillane.

Mick Antoniw.

Just a couple of comments you made right at the beginning, Luned, with regard to Brexit: you said there were challenges and concerns there. You said there were challenges and concerns with regard to the possibility of some companies transferring headquarters and so on, and we know—we've heard previously—that there are some issues in terms of funding that used to come in in support. I wonder if you could just clarify in a little bit more detail precisely what is happening out there, what your fears are, what the implications are for the industry within Wales of that. How likely is it to happen? Is there anything we can do about it?

It's something that the sector is very concerned about at the moment and is looking at. Historically, Wales has been able to access funds from the MEDIA fund and other pots of money across Europe. Historically, also, when there was a lot of animation production, there were co-productions on a wide scale across several different countries at the same time. So, there was money moving  around quite freely within different countries and contributing into material that was actually being made in Wales.

But I think the fear at the moment is partly of the unknown—where there are current funding sources, whether or not they will still be available. And it's just something that everybody is very aware of, and, especially, there are different perceptions in different countries in Europe about how they feel about bringing money into the UK rather than—for example, a company in France who might have contributed to a co-production in the UK quite happily might prefer the production to move to France because they, again, are not sure what the long-term effect is going to be post leaving.

How sound is that base, though? Is it based on genuine evidence of things?

There was a section of the Focus convention in London in December 2017 where there was a session on animation, and, for that specific sector, there was genuine concern from production companies and also from some of the trade bodies that look after animation in general; it is a concern.

Okay, thank you.

Any comments, any—?

Shall I perhaps go back to your original question about the general health of the sector, and just build on some of the points that have been made by TAC, perhaps from a more UK-wide point of view? I think, really, the tv and certainly the independent production sector, and the tv sector more broadly, is in a very good place at the moment. I think we've seen, both across the UK and relevant to Wales as well, a number of different moves and interventions over the last year that I think really mean that we're moving into another phase for the production sector. Certainly, there have been opportunities at a number of different levels. For example, an injection of more investment from a local programming point of view, both through BBC Wales and to the other nations across the UK. We've got contestability, the opening out of opportunities through the BBC under the new charter, so that's more opportunities for companies like Pact members—independent production companies—to bid for those opportunities.

We've got the shift, the very welcome move, by Channel 4 to invest 50 per cent of their spend, their investment, out of London by 2023, which we always argued was a really important part of the picture. It was about investment—yes, the creative hubs and the new national hub are going to be very important as well, but it's that investment that's really key. So, I think that there have been a number of shifts in the landscape over the last year that I think put the independent production sector and the tv sector in an even better place to move forward in the future.

The only thing to add is that I think there's no doubt that drama's a big success in Wales, and I think the challenge is to get factual production up there as well, but there's no doubting that drama is doing really brilliantly.

We've just taken the very safe position of not backing any of them. [Laughter.] Because we know we've got members across the UK, so it was the safest thing to do, but good luck to everybody.

Neil.

Yes. Can I ask you what your thoughts are on the UK Government's creative industries sector deal? We heard from Rhodri Talfan Davies earlier on this morning and he emphasised the importance of this for diverting spend away from London and the south-east, and you neatly fed into that with your evidence a moment ago about needing to divert out from the south-east of Wales as well into other parts of Wales—a very important factor. 

In TAC's evidence, you talk about a UK-wide creative careers campaign as perhaps part of this as well—encouarging young people to take up careers across the breadth of skills required in the media production sector. So, how should the Welsh Government respond to this deal? What are the principal features that the Welsh Government should have in mind in trying to access the scope that will be given to it by the deal to us by the UK Government?

I think the first thing to say is that, obviously, a £150 million investment by the creative industries sector deal is greatly to be welcomed and Rhodri Talfan is quite right—we do need to make sure that some of those funds come to Wales and the training will be a part of that. That's being looked after by the Creative Industries Federation, and TAC is a member of that and so we'll be working with the federation to try and focus some of those training needs to that end. TAC is also supporting a creative clusters bid that was mentioned by Ruth McElroy to bring research and development funding to three south Wales universities. I feel that this would be a real fillip to south Wales—again, perhaps outside the Cardiff bubble, including the areas between Cardiff and further east.

We also noted that a lot of the priority support is going to be on the technological side, so virtual reality, artificial intelligence, games, platforms—things like that. So, I think it's important to try and make sure that some of it is creative so that the creative industries are fed. There was an interesting point made in research by Sir Peter Bazalgette, side by side with the creative industries, that said that even though the creative industries are thriving they thrive more effectively when there is co-operation between Government and the industry. So, with Welsh Government, it would be, I think, very beneficial to try and combine the priorities of the Government and the needs of the sector in order to best move the creative industries forward, and, referring back again to your point about the training, to make sure that that is, if you like, a welcome side-benefit to the money that will be going into the creative industries in general, not just, of course, in film and television.

And Rhodri said earlier about the importance of creating these creative clusters throughout the UK, and, in Pact's evidence, you referred to the situation we've got in Wales where there is a positive cluster in relation to animation that can be developed further. So, can you build on what Luned has just said about the creative sector deal from the Welsh Government's perspective?

Yes, well, obviously, we were thrilled to play a role in shaping the deal and the outcome. And I think we shouldn’t underestimate the fact that this is, really, the first time that the Government has, within an industrial strategy, recognised the creative industries as being a really important part, alongside many other sectors that have been recognised in the past—that, really, this is the first time we've been recognised in this way, and the importance that it has both culturally and to the economy as well, and set out a number of ways—. Well, that's what the deal is: a number of ways in which the Government can bring in funding and also that the industry can support the programme, the deal, going forward.

I think we'd certainly like the Welsh Government to engage with the deal, because it seems that the publication of the recent economic plan signalled a shift away from focusing on the film and tv sector and on the creative industries more broadly. So, I think we'd welcome the Welsh Government engaging with what's on offer and promoting, as Luned said, some of the very valuable pots of funding. I know that universities have already engaged with the clusters funding, but Wales has always been a strong centre for digital development and digital industries, so we'd hope that there'd be encouragement to companies accessing the virtual reality and augmented reality funds.

I think the other area that the Welsh Government can get involved in is in the setting up of the trade board as well. This is going to be the partnership between the UK Government and industry around setting up priorities for international trade. Previously, what we've seen is an agenda, largely driven by Government, with industry trying to chip in along the way. So, from our point of view, it's a really important step that it's going to be very much a joint agenda, and I think it's really important that Wales, and the other nations as well, have a word and have influence around how that strategy is set and how it develops over time as well to make sure that Wales-based companies are getting the best possible support to international markets.

Do you mean participation in trade missions and so on, or—?

Yes. Yes, or going to international markets, meeting with international buyers, meeting co-production partners—that kind of thing. We want to make sure that Welsh companies are getting the best possible support, in those terms, to the right markets where the best opportunities are available.

The flip side of that, of course, also, in addition to going abroad to other countries in order to showcase what Wales can do, is bringing others here. One of the things I wanted to ask about was the importance of film festivals in this respect and building up this kind of activity here in Wales so that we bring the international industries here as well so that they can see us and what we can do on the spot.

Yes, I think film festivals are excellent platforms for celebrating and promoting the project, wherever the festival happens to be, and it's obviously important to celebrate those. I don't think there's a problem in bringing the international interest to Wales for festivals of that kind. You've heard previous evidence about Iris, about Cardiff International Film Festival. There are solid successes out there in film and also in television. But I think TAC could be interested in, perhaps—referring to what Rosina said about markets—bringing a business element, in the form of a market, to such festivals, as a joined-up approach, so that the distributors and production companies would be able to meet content commissioners within the context of what is already a product that's being promoted at that festival, but also with an eye to future development, so that it's a platform every time to be looking at further investment in Wales and also working widely with other countries, as well.

Do you have any practical suggestions as to how to build on what we've already got and what's the next step to promote Wales through film festivals?