Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

26/04/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Jack Sargeant
Jenny Rathbone
Neil Hamilton
Sian Gwenllian
Suzy Davies

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-Thomas Y Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon
Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport
Euros Lewis Ysgrifennydd Cymdeithas Gydweithredol Radio Beca
Secretary of the Radio Beca Co-operative Society
Hywel Owen Arweinydd Tîm Polisi'r Cyfryngau, Llywodraeth Cymru
Media Policy Team Leader, Welsh Government
Lowri Jones Arweinydd Tîm Cymell a Hwyluso, Radio Beca
Motivation and Facilitation Team Leader, Radio Beca
Marc Webber Uwch Ddarlithydd mewn Newyddiaduraeth a'r Cyfryngau
Senior Lecturer in Journalism and Media
Martin Mumford Rheolwr Gyfarwyddwr, Nation Broadcasting
Managing Director, Nation Broadcasting
Mel Booth Rheolwr Gyfarwyddwr Cymru, Global Radio
Managing Director Wales, Global Radio
Neil Sloan Pennaeth Rhaglenni, Communicorp UK
Head of Programming, Communicorp UK

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Lowri Harries Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:02. 

The meeting began at 09:02.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch, a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Eitem 1: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad rywbeth i'w ddatgan? Na.

Rydym wedi cael ymddiheuriadau heddiw gan Rhianon Passmore a gan Mick Antoniw, ac nid ydynt wedi anfon unrhyw ddirprwyon. 

Thank you, and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. The first item is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Do any Assembly Members have any declarations of interests to make? No.

We have received apologies this morning from Rhianon Passmore and from Mick Antoniw, and they have not sent any substitutes on their behalf.

2. Radio yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 5
2. Radio in Wales: Evidence Session 5

Rydym yn symud ymlaen felly at eitem 2: radio yng Nghymru, sesiwn dystiolaeth 5. Hoffwn i groesawu ein tystion yma heddiw. Y panel yw: Marc Webber, uwch-ddarlithydd mewn newyddiaduraeth a'r cyfryngau; Martin Mumford, rheolwr gyfarwyddwr yn Nation Broadcasting Limited; Mel Booth, rheolwr gyfarwyddwr Cymru, Global Radio; a Neil Sloan, pennaeth rhaglenni, Communicorp UK. Diolch i chi i gyd am ddod mewn atom heddiw. Mae gennym ni fformat—os yw hynny'n iawn—lle rydym ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar wahanol themâu. Felly, ewn ni'n syth mewn i'r cwestiynau, a bydd siawns i chi godi unrhyw faterion yn hynny o beth. Felly, rydym ni'n symud ymlaen nawr at Siân Gwenllian. 

We move on to item 2: radio in Wales, evidence session 5. I'd like to welcome our witnesses here today. The panel includes: Marc Webber, senior lecturer in journalism and media; Martin Mumford, managing director at Nation Broadcasting Limited; Mel Booth, managing director for Wales, Global Radio; and Neil Sloan, head of programming, Communicorp UK. Thank you all for joining us today. We have a set format—if that is all right—where we ask questions on different themes. So, we'll go straight into those questions, and you'll have an opportunity to raise any issues in that regard. So, we move on now to Siân Gwenllian. 

Bore da. Mi wnaf i gychwyn efo effaith refeniw isel radio masnachol lleol yng Nghymru ar gynnwys lleol yng Nghymru. Beth ydy effaith y ffaith fod y refeniw yn isel? Mi wnaf i ddechrau efo rhywun o'r diwydiant a wedyn, efallai, ddod at Marc. Pwy sydd am ddechrau? 

Good morning. I'll start with the impact of the low revenue of local commercial radio in Wales on local content in Wales. What is the impact of the fact that the revenue is low? If I could start from someone from the industry and then perhaps come to Marc for a response. Who'd like to start?

Do you want me to start? 

I think commercial radio is obviously led by the advertising revenues that we generate from our activity. To say that that is a challenge I think would be an understatement at this moment in time. I think the whole panel would agree that we do everything we possibly can to generate as much revenue as we possibly can from the local marketplace, and we do look at our programming and our ability to connect with the local marketplace, and the different types of programming and opportunities we offer in order to be able to generate a significant amount of revenue, as much as we possibly can do.  But the constraints of that are quite significant. 

I'm assuming you're basing that on low revenue per head of population in Wales.

09:05

So, part of that is a lack of competition—certain FM frequencies went to Bristol, for example, instead of areas like Newport—and part of that is that there's no local commercial radio station in parts of Wales such as Powys. And, indeed, the Valleys lost its commercial station some years ago. So, that does contribute to the stat, I think, that you've started with. Because at Nation Broadcasting our revenues have been rising consistently over the last few years.

But what effect does it have—? Okay, they are rising, but it's still, compared to other parts of the UK, low in Wales, isn't it? So, what effect does that have on the local content?

Well, we always shape our business based on the revenues that we get. So, could every radio station on air be better if more money was spent on its programming? Well, of course it could. But, equally, we've got to cut our cloth to fit.

I'd just slightly echo something that Martin's just spoken about in terms of the competition or the plurality of opportunities to start a commercial radio station in Wales. The door shuts now on FM licences; Ofcom has made a UK-wide decision that you cannot start a new commercial radio licence, because they want to push people towards DAB. I've written in my submission, actually, that, to my knowledge, from Ofcom and Radiocentre data, the amount of revenue generated in Wales has actually risen by £1 million in the past year. So, that would imply to me, as well as the healthy audience figures that we see for radio, per se, in Wales, that actually that's not a bad business to be in.

As I also say in my written submission, I have my concerns—and partly coming off where Martin has come off, and it will be a theme of what I discuss in the next few minutes—that we do not have a plurality of commercial radio stations in Wales, because I think there has been a chance for two radio groups—and I will be nice about them, genuinely; they're sitting next to me now—to basically take the majority of the market in both listenership and frequencies. Now, to be clear, I do not blame Global and I do not blame Communicorp for buying licences and doing their business. That's their job. I actually, genuinely believe there's been a market failure in commercial radio in Wales, and I believe that's down to Ofcom. I believe that Ofcom have not looked at the rules that are passed down, UK wide, from the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and do not look at how that has played out in the various nations of the UK.

So, if you look at Northern Ireland, for example, they're under the same broadcasting rules as us, their revenue from local radio continues to rise, but with only 1.5 million population they have 11 local radio stations to choose from. The majority of them, if not all of them, are 24/7 run from Northern Ireland with Northern Irish voices and Northern Irish people on them, whereas in Wales, the majority of the radio listening that occurs is done to output that's from London, so it's either BBC Radio 2 or it's Heart or Capital in their various forms, with the majority of the programming networked from London. So, I think the reason there's a concern about revenue—and I think revenue in commercial radio in Wales could be far higher—is because, actually, there is a lack of genuine local revenue opportunities for local businesses, beyond breakfast and drive, on quite a few, or the biggest, commercial radio groups in Wales.

I think it's worth pointing out that the actual media landscape has changed significantly in the last 10 to 15 years, so it's not just about whether people are spending advertising money on radio. There's a huge choice now where advertisers can reach target demographic audiences. So, they have a real ability, a real ease, to be able to buy around commercial radio.

And, of course, on the point that Marc makes about the audience not listening to a local output because the actual broadcast is not transmitted locally, I don't think that really carries a great deal of significance or weight. When you look at Heart, and if you look at the Global brands, we offer national brands that are delivered locally. If you look at the penetration of the actual audience delivery in Wales for the Global brands—and there are obviously various Global brands outside of Heart—over 45 per cent of people who live in Wales consume a Global brand at some point during the week, which says to me that we are delivering a positive service, delivering a positive product that is being listened to very highly. So, I can understand the point that Marc's making, but the audience figures would say, 'We actually are enjoying the product that you are delivering', albeit that some of that output comes locally, and some of that output comes from a central source. It is actually delivering over 45 per cent of the population of Wales, who are tuning into a Global brand. So, that actual strategy of a brand that is a national brand delivered locally is actually working, and working very well.

09:10

Yes, I'd just like to add that Mel makes a very good point—that, actually, Heart and Capital's competitors now are not necessarily Swansea Sound or, to a certain extent, Nation Radio. There's Spotify, and they are podcasting, and people in Wales are actively choosing to plug their iPhones into their car stereos every morning and ignoring any FM signal at all. I think that's something that I'm absolutely conscious about: that if we talk about how we make Heart more Welsh, or Global more Welsh, let's talk about how we make Spotify more Welsh as well, because that's the next generation of our audience.

Yes, it's a good point. I completely agree.

Ie. Felly, y broblem ydy, os ydym ni yn mynd i gael mwy o ddadreoleiddio ar radio masnachol, mae'r broblem o'r diffyg cynnwys lleol—mae peryg o hynny'n mynd yn waeth.

Yes. Therefore, the problem is, if we are to have further deregulation of commercial radio, then the problem of the lack of local content is going to get worse.

Rwy'n cytuno. Rwyf eisiau gweld pam mae mor anodd i wneud cynnwys lleol, ac yn enwedig, ar gyfer y dyfodol, y podlediadau a phethau fel Spotify. Mae'n rhaid i rywun yn y wlad yma greu cynnwys ar gyfer Spotify a phodlediadau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Rwy'n credu bod yna fusnes yng Nghymru i rywun—ac rwy'n edrych at y dynion yma, a'r cwmnïau yma, sydd yn dal yma yn creu pethau awdio ar hyn o bryd yng Nghymru—i drosglwyddo'r sgiliau yma i'r podlediadau a'r dechnoleg newydd.

Ynglŷn â'r iaith Gymraeg, mae yna sefyllfa ddiddorol efo'r iaith Gymraeg achos bod y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn meddwl nad yw radio annibynnol yn creu cynnwys Cymraeg, neu'n creu tipyn bach o gynnwys Cymraeg. Ond mae yna lot o raglenni Cymraeg ar radio annibynnol ar hyn o bryd, er enghraifft Capital Cymru. Mae Sain Abertawe a Radio Ceredigion yn dal i greu rhaglenni Cymraeg, ac maen nhw'n creu tua 80 awr bob wythnos o raglenni yn Gymraeg. Nawr, mae hyn bron yn agosáu at y nifer o oriau y mae BBC Radio Cymru yn eu creu bob wythnos. Felly, fel ag y mae, mae yna wasanaeth gwahanol yn y Gymraeg ar gael nawr, ond y broblem yw bod y cynnwys yn cael ei greu gan dri neu bedwar cwmni annibynnol sydd ddim yn gweithio efo'i gilydd i farchnata ei gilydd, ac nid oes un lle i fynd i wrando ar bob rhaglen sydd ar gael. Rwy'n bendant bod yna farchnad ar gyfer gorsaf radio annibynnol Gymraeg, ac rwy'n bendant y byddai'n llwyddiannus. Rwy'n credu y bydd o leiaf un neu ddau o bobl yma yn gallu dechrau'r broses honno i greu hynny, achos rwy'n bendant yn credu, efallai drwy'r system Radioplayer neu rywbeth fel hynny, bod yna fusnes i greu rhywbeth gwahanol a masnachol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

I agree. I want to see why it's difficult to include local content, and particularly, for the future, things like podcasts and things such as Spotify. Someone in this nation has to create content for Spotify and podcasts for the future, and I think that there is a business in Wales for someone—and I look to these colleagues here, and these companies who are creating audio content at the moment in Wales—to transfer those skills to the podcasts and to new technologies.

With regard to the Welsh language, there's an interesting situation with regard to the Welsh language, because the majority of people think that independent radio doesn't create Welsh-language content, or very little. However, there are many Welsh-medium programmes on independent radio, such as Capital Cymru. Swansea Sound and Radio Ceredigion are creating Welsh language programmes, and they create around 80 hours a week of programmes in Welsh. Now, this is approaching the number of hours that BBC Radio Cymru creates every week. So, there is a different service in Welsh available now, but the problem is that the content is created by three or four independent companies that aren't working together to market themselves, and there's no one place that one can go to to listen to all of the programmes that are available. I am certain that there's a market for an independent radio station through the medium of Welsh, and I'm certain that it would be successful. I'm sure that at least one or two people here would be able to start that process to create that, because I am certain that, perhaps through the Radioplayer system or something like that, there is a business there to create something different and commercially successful through the medium of Welsh.

Beth am yr her y mae Marc yn ei osod rwan o ran rhaglenni cynnwys Cymraeg, ac a all y diwydiant sydd yma yng Nghymru yn barod ymateb i'r her, ond hefyd y syniad o gael newyddion o Gymru? Hwn ydy ein pryder mawr ni, fel pwyllgor, rydw i'n meddwl: bod y cynnwys o Gymru yn cael ei golli oherwydd y pwysau masnachol sydd arnoch chi. A oes yna le i chi fod yn arwain yng Nghymru, a dyfeisio ffyrdd y gallwch chi fod yn cyflwyno newyddion o Gymru ar eich sianeli chi—ac ar y podlediadau ac ar y platfformau newydd sydd yn datblygu?

What about the challenge set down by Marc there in terms of Welsh-language content? Can the industry already established here in Wales respond to that challenge—but also this idea of having Welsh news? Because this is our major concern, as a committee, I think: that the content from Wales is being diluted because of the commercial pressures on you. Is there scope for you to be taking a lead in Wales, and to be finding new ways in which you can present Welsh news on your platforms, and on those podcasts and the new platforms that are developing?

Can I just check that you mean news about Wales rather than news in the Welsh language?

I have to say, unfortunately, I don't agree with Marc's analysis about the viability of a Welsh-language-only commercial radio station, but that's a gut feel—

09:15

I think I can do better on the second part of the question. I think it's a massive deficiency in current regulation that news specific to the region is not viewed by Ofcom as relevant local content on our services. It's something that, at Nation Broadcasting, we looked at carefully, and we took it on ourselves to create a bulletin called News for Wales, which we get no credit for from a regulatory perspective. And, actually, I think that the market's already providing a great deal of content around Wales, not because we have to, but because it's the right thing to do in terms of the audiences that we broadcast to.

Well, no, because you can't sponsor the news on commercial radio; it's something you have to provide.

No, no, I mean in terms of getting an audience; is it commercially the correct thing to do, to put the emphasis on local Welsh news?

If we go back to the original question, or part of your question, at the beginning—sorry, I'll just cut across—you talked about the loyalty and the value of commercial radio and the growth of commercial radio, or the growth of radio, and I think that the listener, clearly from a research point of view, has said that radio is a valued medium—a trusted, valued medium—and one of the key and core drivers for that trust and value is news and traffic and travel.

So, from a local point of view, from a local station point of view, being able to produce, as Global produces, 29,000 news bulletins per year—of which 3,000 of those are in the Welsh language—supports this belief and desire and absolute fact that we are a trusted medium delivered via because of the quality of the news output. So, for us, from a Global Radio perspective, it's critically important that our news comes locally, is delivered locally, is sourced locally, and is all about the local marketplace—be that north Wales or south Wales—and, where appropriate, and where possible, it will be in the Welsh language.

I guess the other point about deregulation is that it's paving the way for a DAB switchover. So, it's creating parity between the FM licences and the DAB licences. Because currently, the DAB licences don't have any news or information requirements whatsoever. You can have a DAB station with none of that on. So, it creates a parity so that in the future, the DAB stations will be regulated and will have to carry news and information. In that sense, it's protecting that as we look forward to the future, whenever that switchover may be.

I guess the other point about deregulation is: just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you will. We have no current ambition to change our local broadcasting output when legislation is passed. The legislation is of the output, not of the input, but as it stands, it paves the way for a very exciting future, and I don't think it's something to be scared of.

Maybe we could have a note on how you actually produce the local content. I think that would be useful, for us to know how all that operation works. Is it different from region to region?

I think it's different from supplier or operator. Global has two news hubs. We have a news hub in north Wales and a news hub in south Wales, just over the road. We have seven journalists who are based over here, and they will go into the marketplace and they will source news. I'm sure you've spoken to some of them yourselves, you're familiar with their faces, and we will do that news in that manner.

I wonder if I might just go back to Martin Mumford, please, and the answers you've given to Siân there. You mentioned that you didn't think that a commercial radio through the medium of Welsh was viable, full stop. I'm quite curious to know why you didn't rebid for the Radio Ceredigion licence.

And my second question is: I was pleased to hear that you have your Welsh news section, if you like, but in your evidence, you stated that

'There should be equal status for UK nations with no additional news/programming burden.'

I presume that means news and programming about Wales. Why do you think that's a burden?

Well, let me take your first question first, on Radio Ceredigion. We will be bidding for Radio Ceredigion's licence; it's currently being advertised by Ofcom. We've made a decision not to go through what's called a fast-track process. So, we do still want to retain a service in Ceredigion. It's difficult for me to talk about that today because it's part of a competitive process, potentially.

09:20

Why did you decide not to go through the fast-track process?

We felt that the market economics in Ceredigion, which is one of the smallest licensed radio stations in the UK, were fundamentally changing with the potential launch of a community radio service in that area. It's something we've been consistently saying to Ofcom for a number of years, but they have licensed a community service and we think that the economics of that area in terms of available audience and available revenue, will fundamentally change with the launch of that station, and that is the reason why we've not gone through the fast-track process. Again, I've got to be quite careful, because we're into a beauty parade, a competitive process. So, in terms of what our plans are, that's something we'd have to revisit in a few months' time.

Secondly, I think that there are two key points I'd pick up on on the second part of your question. The first is that I fundamentally agree with Neil that just because you can do something or indeed, in certain cases, you don't have to do something, doesn't mean you won't. And there are numerous examples that I'm sure we can all point to of things that we do, not because we're regulated to do them, but because it's a way of building audiences and revenue, and there are numerous examples at Nation Broadcasting.

You picked out a form of words or a sentence from my submission; I think the point that we've consistently tried to stress is that there is a danger, if you over-regulate or if you create an uneven playing field between the nations, that you may end up, actually, with a perverse outcome, perhaps, from your perspective—that you end up with fewer people wanting to do business here or set up a radio company here and the market becomes worse, not better, as a result. So, I think that's what I was driving at, through that submission.

Thanks, Chair. Welcome, guys. A couple of things to pick up on. When mentioning the Welsh language content, Siân picked up on it before, and one of the things Mark said was about the independent radio station. I know that Martin didn't agree with that, specifically. But, firstly, I wondered whether the other two panelists agreed with that. Is there a need for it and is that something we should be looking at or not?

The BBC, as the public service broadcaster, does a fantastic job of representing the Welsh language, and from a commercial radio point of view, the guys at Global produce Capital Cymru. So, there is a version of Capital that you can get digitally, with a large proportion of the output in Welsh. So, there are options available for Welsh language commercial radio people to seek out. They may not be on the traditional FM frequencies, but they are there, currently. And so, with the digital platforms, in the world we live in these days, things don't have to be just on FM, especially for the young audience, to reach them, I would say.

Yes, I totally agree.

Just taking that a step further and looking at—[Inaudible.]—the likes of Spotify and Apple Music and streaming sites and so on, what is the commercial radio industry doing to attract more people to the radio, because, in the digital age that we live in, it is easier for many people to just stream off their phones and pick stuff up? Is there a plan of attack to bring people back to the radio stations, or is there, specifically on the Welsh language content side, a need, or are you looking at creating podcasts and separate things to stream in the Welsh language?

I think from a product—. Launching products to attract and bring the youth listener back into listening to radio is driven via podcasts and it's driven via visual material. So, if you look at most of our brands now, in fact, all of our brands have some link to social media, and therefore will be producing visual material that you can view on a streaming device, so that you are connecting people to your brand either via a phone or an iPad, to watch or listen to that clip or that link and see what's going on from an audio point of view. So, we're linking people in that way. 

It's not necessarily about whether you're listening on a single FM frequency, you might be streaming. So, you're listening to the brand, but on a streaming platform as opposed to an FM platform. And, of course, as Neil has talked about, where appropriate, we will be doing it in the Welsh language, but it'll all come down to the commercial viability of that and the appropriate audience delivery.

Thank you. Just finally, Mark, you touched on the difference between Wales and Northern Ireland and so on, do you think additional regulation within Wales and, specifically more, probably, when we switch over to DAB—we've got an opportunity there to add additional regulations—do you think that's required and, if so, what would that regulation look like?

09:25

Well, I look at the UK-wide regulations that have been applied by Ofcom and the DCMS, and there is only one nation amongst the constituent parts of the UK where I see market failure, and it's Wales. I don't see it in Scotland, I don't see it in England—I think that's because of the volume of people—and I don't see it in Northern Ireland. I am a believer—. I mean, when people ask me, 'Should we devolve broadcasting to Wales?', I say, 'What do you mean by that?' I would mean in this case that I think there need to be some special measures put in that allow further competition in the commercial radio market in Wales and allow things that have been, in my view, holding back the development of Welsh language radio in commercial radio, normally the transmitter costs, which I'm sure these guys to my right will tell you have been a killer on FM for a number of years—

Once we get over that bridge, if Wales had the ability to manipulate the current laws, I think that would be good enough, that would be my answer.

I just wanted to carry on with just one question on what, Marc, you said in your evidence. I'm trying to understand more about the removal of regulation of music formats and non-news provision. You say,

'The decision by the Global/Communicorp group to cut local investment in content has led to a race to the bottom by the other groups that remain in Wales.' 

Could you just expand on that and then perhaps get a reaction from those in the industry? 

Absolutely. There's been a lot of talk in this inquiry so far, and rightly so, about the concern about how news is disseminated and information is disseminated, either from the Assembly or any other part of Wales, and getting news right for the people of Wales and delivering that. I have had as big a fear, if you like, about the cultural and jobs impact on Wales, which I raise in my submission.

On the cultural side, look, Wales isn't just—as much as I'm sure we'd all like to believe—the Welsh Assembly. There's rugby, there are people, there are jobs, there are communities, there's crime, there are stories. More importantly, as well, there are music and culture. And I think what, unfortunately, has happened because of—what I worry about, with the deregulation of music formats, is there will be less requirement to create shows based in Cardiff where you listen to people who walk down the street with you. It doesn't really matter what their accent is and whether they were born in England or whatever. I just don't get a sense, sometimes, from those networks specifically, that I am listening to something that is about Wales, about me, in that area. I have two shows a day that are from Cardiff or Wrexham, and then the rest is delivered to me from London. So, I think the Welsh culture and who we are and walking around are missing as a result of various deregulations over time.

The music one—I think there are better people than me to talk about. But, look, Wales produces a lot of music in the English language and the Welsh language. I'll leave the guys—well, they probably won't know the answer to this, but when was the last time a Welsh song was played on Heart FM? When was the last time? It was probably Tom Jones on Time Tunnel, and there are more modern bands in Wales. Are they getting the crack, are they getting the chance to break through  on that national brand? If Red Dragon were still alive down the road, or if Swansea Sound were stronger, people would just walk in with a demo tape and hand it in.

So, can I hear from you guys what you think about that?

I would come to that with—. So, from our point of view, Capital in south Wales in particular, the landscape's changed over the last 20 years. We can't go back to Red Dragon days, but the station we operate now is embedded in the total survey area. I would counter it's probably as reflective, if not more so than Red Dragon was in its heyday, because if there is a major event happening, we're a part of it. We have good relationships with people like the Welsh Rugby Union and we cover rugby matches. We partnered with the Union of European Football Associations for the Champions League last year; we work with Cardiff council on many of their events. I could go on—

Pardon? Music? I was coming on to that. I said I could go on, I will. We ran a talent search last year called Spotlight for upcoming new musicians in the TSA of Cardiff, Newport and surrounding areas, and a chap called Kieran Marsh won, who is 17. He won a prize package to go on to write, record and release his first single, which we had supported on Capital. So, that was a fantastic opportunity for us to really nail our colours to the mast, saying 'This is what Capital does in this area supporting youth music development.' Our presenters do walk the streets. They live and breathe the air in south Wales, and we target the hard-to-reach 15 to 34s and engage them with the local news, travel, information, and more importantly the content—not more importantly, equally as importantly. But the content is not something that is as heavily regulated as the news and information, but the stuff that we talk about on a daily basis to these young audiences that we're attracting is something that the BBC and BBC radio certainly doesn't do. So, as much as, as I said, deregulation paves the way for us to change that, we have no ambition to do that. Why would we?

09:30

I completely agree. I don't recognise part of what's been said. I think Nation Broadcasting in particular, we've ploughed a slightly different furrow to the national brands. Almost all of our programming is generated from Wales, and we still, in Pembrokeshire, for example, on a Sunday night, run a local music show—not because we have to, but because we do. Actually, that generation of local content, whether it's a music show, or traffic and travel, or local events information that we broadcast every hour on our local services, I recognise that as our future, because our future might not be broadcasting on FM or DAB, particularly if there are driverless cars going everywhere—we'll be watching a screen instead of the road. So, actually, the generation of what's happening in my area, whether that's news or content, is still something that's going to be valuable, I believe, to consumers in 20, 30 years' time, when the method of our current business model might be completely different. 

Interesting.

Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen nawr at—unless bod rhywun arall eisiau gofyn am radio masnachol. Na? Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at radio cymunedol, felly. Suzy.

We move on then, unless anyone else wants to ask about commercial radio. No? So, moving on to community radio, then. Suzy.

Yes. So, are you happy to answer some questions on community radio, as you're commercial radio? You mentioned it your evidence, so I'm hoping you will. I'm sorry to draw on your evidence again, Martin, but you mentioned in your evidence that community stations should be free to become wholly commercial services, and in your earlier answer you said it does affect how you operate as well. Do you want to expand on that a little bit?

I think it's very difficult in certain areas to see the difference between a local commercial radio station and a community radio station. This is again actually around the model that we've chosen to run in Nation Broadcasting. Unlike almost everywhere else in the UK, we've kept the heritage brands in the counties—Radio Pembrokeshire, Radio Carmarthenshire. So, when we see community radio stations launch, actually I think there should be a level playing field there. They're on FM, they're trying to gain audience. In some cases they're prevented, currently, from gaining revenue, but actually we'd quite like to run some community radio licences. We are already running, in my view, community stations in certain areas of Wales. So I just don't see these as two completely different sectors, but then I don't particularly view—. The BBC is organised differently, but when you're presented with a radio and you've got a choice of what you want to listen to, people don't in their heads think, 'I want to listen to my community radio station today' or 'the BBC'; they choose a radio station they want to listen to because they like the output that they hear. It's very odd that we're all regulated in completely different ways. 

So, that's the frustration for me. I know the fund for community radio isn't running in Wales anymore. It was a frustration for me that, actually, as a local, commercial licensee, I'd have quite liked to have been able to access that fund to improve some of the areas of programming that perhaps you think are deficient, because I've got a much bigger audience that, potentially, that could reach, and have great value, and that is one method in which some of the areas that perhaps you're looking to address could be addressed. Perhaps commercial radio could step in and create different things, whether that's Welsh language programming in a pooled way, or a news service that's available to commercial radio and community radio in Wales. 

That doesn't happen at all at the moment, where commercial operators produce content for community radio, does it?

Not to my knowledge, no.

Okay, thank you. That was a very helpful answer. Are you pretty much of the same mind? Do you see community radio as a threat or a little brother?

I think from a Global point of view, we don't see it as a threat, because we want all radio to succeed. I don't necessarily agree with Martin's opinion in one area, and that is how it's treated differently, because predominantly, community radio stations are staffed by volunteers, and therefore the mechanism of their funding needs to be considered differently to a professional radio station that employs people. So, I think there is a need for it to be considered differently. 

09:35

I was just going to say I would agree with Mel's point. I think that it's very important that there is a distinction because I think they should be protected for what community radio does. Communicorp fully supports it and I think that, actually, what the community radio station does, the clue's in the title—it's for the community—so it shouldn't, in my opinion, be swallowed up by commercial stations, because then you're just extending the reach of commercial stations and not having that distinction. 

Are you worried about any potential lifting of the financial restrictions? 

I think my answer about Ceredigion earlier perhaps indicates where we are on that, but that's very specific to that market. 

I understand it was one incident, which is a little unfair.

You mentioned the community radio fund. Do you think it should be reinstated, or is it just another thing that makes the playing field less level? 

Coming back to your previous point, if the restrictions are removed from how much revenue can come in, to be then having support from another angle is a bit incongruous. So, I think it should be that you can have one or the other. We can't go, 'Yes, you can make as much money as you want but, here, have some more as well'. So, I think—

Of course, but I think the concern is that if community radio stations are given carte blanche to, essentially, turn themselves into commercial radio stations, then the line blurs the other way. So, that's just the distinction to be mindful of, I think. 

I think a contestable public service broadcasting fund would potentially be better value for money if the money existed; I don't believe it does now. 

Can I just add there we've had a letter from the UK Government, and there is a UK Government community radio fund, which is funded by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and it's been increased to £400,000 per year. So, if there's a concern, why, you know—. You've said, 'I would like to apply for it'—it seems that it already exists, albeit it's been cut in Wales. 

As a commercial licensee, we couldn't apply for that funding. I'm just making the point that I think, potentially, a contestable public service broadcasting fund might deliver better value. That's that. 

Okay, thank you. I just want to ask very briefly about the—. Obviously, community radio listernership isn't counted—maybe this is one for Mark, actually. Do you think that's a problem? 

Yes, I think it's a big problem, because as I've cited in my evidence, however much we like what community radio does and we see the potential in it—and the potential, I think, is shared by everybody here—we don't genuinely know how well community radio stations in Wales are doing. We have, obviously, technology now where you can do a digital survey and count how many are on your webstream, but if these guys are able to prove their worth in a mixed market economy, they need to be measured in exactly, holistically, the same way as the big radio groups and the BBC are, which is by the Radio Joint Audience Research. It is a disappointment to me that RAJAR have set the financial bar too high for individual community radio stations to sign up. I understand, sort of, the points that they put back, which is, 'Obviously, if we're surveying a smaller area, there are data worries about the level of the security of that data', and also they might have to put an extra survey team into that area. I understand the cost on that. I don't think it's onerous if it's shared, and I think, whilst we can't level out or we can't measure the value of community radio against the stations sitting here and the BBC, it's pretty hard to say whether it has got any worth at all.   

I was going to say, surely, it's going to be difficult for them to compete for advertising if they didn't—.

Anyway, my final question—thank you, Chair—is about transmission costs, both for community radio and—well, we may as well talk about it—for commercial radio. I've got a sense you're dying to, so what have you got to say about transmission costs and how they're killing you? 

I think the answer is 'yes'. They are extremely extortionate and, obviously, part of the deregulation will allow groups to invest where they see best fits, but, obviously, the regulation costs and your transmission costs are the two biggest costs that we as a sector bear. If we can, obviously, reduce any of those, it makes good sense to be able then to reinvest said finance into quality of product, news output et cetera, and therefore giving the best product to our listener. 

I mentioned the DAB switchover area, and I think we are some way away from obtaining a big enough DAB coverage across all of Wales for that to become viable, because compared to our FM transmitters, the example I gave in the evidence is that our Heart north Wales station has eight FM transmitters that covers a potential population of just over 700,000. Our sister station in the north-west, in Manchester and surrounding areas, has one transmitter that covers 5.6 million people. So, the topography of the landscape is prohibitive, which increases the transmission costs. So, that's the concern about the DAB future—that the infrastructure isn't there yet in order for us to be even considering that kind of move at this point. 

09:40

I better take that one because I'm responsible for some of that DAB coverage because we have shareholdings in three of the multiplex co-operators in Wales, three of the five. I've seen in the Government ministerial submission later that they're looking for a 97 per cent coverage before switchover. I think, in the same way that broadband provision was very difficult in parts of mid Wales in particular, so were delivering local DAB services, which, in the context of Wales, includes BBC Radio Wales, and BBC Radio Cymru, I think that's going to be extremely challenging. So, we've met our obligations to build transmitters out in these areas, but we've hit the buffers in Aberystwyth, for example, where it's not economically viable for us to launch a DAB transmitter in that area, and I believe the same would apply to Powys, for example.

So, we're not going to get to 97 per cent on our own. Either the BBC's going to have to do it, which is publicly funded, or there's going to have to be some other mechanism. But local DAB is actually quite fragile. The multiplexes, potentially, could collapse if they're forced to provide in areas that are uneconomic, are not going to be funded commercially, and they also could collapse if, as it seems we're going to, we're going to move on and license a load of even smaller scale DAB areas, which are adding to areas that already have local coverage. We haven't dealt with the first problem before moving on to the second, which is common in terms of regulation, because we're a long way behind where we all thought we'd be, which is why we're all paying currently for two sets of transmitters here. We're at least 10 years behind where perhaps we would have expected to be. There's no actual FM switchover date set. But when I started my career 20 years ago, we were talking about FM switchover, and we still are. 

Suzy, os nad wyt ti'n meindio, mae gan Neil Hamilton gwestiwn byr. 

Suzy, if you don't mind, Neil Hamilton has a quick question.

I'd just like to get some idea of what sort of figures we're talking about here. You just mentioned one case of Aberystwyth. What are the numbers involved in setting up these transmission stations? If the Government were to intervene or provide some funding to plug the gaps that you've just been referring to, what sort of figures would we be talking about in Wales?

I think I'd have to come back to you on that particularly, because, in many cases, there's a single transmission provider. So, you're actually dealing in terms of finances—it would be quite difficult. But in Aberystwyth, which is a great example, we've got a deficiency in the way that Ofcom have previously licensed radio stations, so that if we were to launch local DAB in Aberystwyth, it would be part of the mid and west Wales multiplex, which means, technically, the wrong version of Heart would be carried into that area. So, every way you look at it, it becomes really difficult. But in terms of a general financial model to get us to 97 per cent in those areas, I'd need to come back to you.

I think my question about transmission costs can be wrapped up with the DAB question with Jenny. 

Okay. Just before I pass to Jenny, I wanted to ask Marc quickly on the RAJAR issue. We had Steve Johnson in from the University of South Wales, and he was saying that community radios don't talk to each other because they're busy and because they're running on a treadmill to try and keep it up and going. I asked him then as well whether they would be able to pool funding to be able to apply for, or to be part of RAJAR, because then they're not paying on their own. And he said, 'Well, we haven't even had a discussion about this.' So, I was just wondering whether you thought, instead of a potential subsidy or a handout from Government, whether the sector could talk to each other about this. 

I'm not a person saying that anybody should be given a Government handout or an Assembly handout for that RAJAR situation. If that money is available, great, but I don't think it's the way it should go. The two issues I would say about that is, yes, there is a problem of co-working between the community radio stations, and, actually, one thing I definitely think this Assembly inquiry could do is find and suggest ways of facilitating them, helping them to work together. I know you've already suggested attending meetings and stuff like that, which is great. Any power that you guys can give to marketing that group of people and supporting that group of people, morally more than financially, if you like, would be great. Fundamentally, though, RAJAR is a body that is owned by the BBC and commercial radio stations, and I believe neither of those groups are interested in having community radio on that measurement spectrum, and will set the bar as high as possible to stop community radio from having access to that.

09:45

Does anyone want to counter that now that you've said it?

To an extent, this is a bit of a red herring because community radio stations are incredibly small. I run some very small local radio stations. The reason we're in RAJAR is to access national advertising. National advertisers have very specific ways that they want to purchase and have reporting around their advertising. It's a completely different type of business to knocking on a local business person's door in Wales and selling radio advertising. So, in some of our smallest stations, the cost of the survey is roughly equivalent to what we receive in national advertising. I think, from a commercial perspective, community radio may not like what the result would be if they were able to access RAJAR. It would be uneconomic. Now, the one thing they would have, of course, is some audience figures that would be comparable with commercial radio, but I don't think necessarily that route for community radio is really going to be paved with gold for them.

But you said earlier that you think that they're doing quite a lot of the same things as you. If you think that, then surely they should be measured in the same way, because your argument would be stronger then I think, because at the moment you haven't got that fair analysis to make with them.

Sure. I'm not responsible for running radio—it's a deadlock company, as Marc's just said between the BBC and commercial radio, so it's something you'd have to take to the RAJAR board. I don't believe that there's a deliberate prevention. I suppose I'm just saying, 'Well, RAJAR's just the first step', but to accept national advertising, you have to have an awful lot of verification systems in place to deliver that pound. Every time we don't deliver an impact, we don't get paid for the order. So, it's one step on a journey that actually I'm not sure derives a notional profit, the smaller the size of station you've got. And I know that because I run some small radio stations.

Just on that point, if I could just comment on something Suzy said earlier that it would be helpful or useful to have an audience number for a community radio station. I think we need to remember that, from an advertiser's point of view, advertisers will only come back if campaigns work. So, you can go and see a client and you could lay out how much of an audience you have and you've got this by RAJAR, whether you're a local radio station, regional or national or whether you are a community one. And it's all well and good saying, 'This is what we have as a listener', but if the campaign's not working, that is somewhat irrelevant.

From a community radio station, if campaigns are working, advertisers will see people buying their products, whatever the product services they're actually offering, and they will want to repeat book, irrelevant of whether you're able to say, 'Here's my audience'. It may be a guesstimation number, it may be RAJAR number, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee a campaign will work. So, we don't need to get too hung up about whether that is critically important. It would be helpful, I guess, but it's not critically important, because, of course, a campaign will work, advertisers will want to spend more money again because it's an investment, a return on investment and not a cost.

It would be very useful for Welsh Government, for example, if they're thinking of revisiting their community fund, to have the actual listener numbers to back up that. So, in that respect, it would be useful.

Can I just add one more point on advertising? Obviously, there is a lot of money that is spent by the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly on advertising and some of that will be radio advertising. There has been a discussion in this committee previously, I think, where, should some of that radio advertising spend go to the community radio stations and take a chunk off the commercial guys who are sitting next to me—I'm not advocating that by the way, I'm just on the marketing—. Of course, as this is public money that is being spent on advertising, as a taxpayer I would expect the public servants—the media buyer or the marketing manager for the Assembly or the Government—to turn around and say, 'I've done my maths, I've done my homework—this will bring us more value in that area, and this will bring us more value in that area.' At the moment, community radio—. You talk about national advertising, I'm not saying that community radio should go for Fairy Liquid advertising, but what—. You guys are keen to get your messages out, but the problem is the person who's responsible for spending that advertising budget here has to answer to the public in how that money is being spent. If they have no figures to align that to they can't make that judgment. 

09:50

If Ofcom allows community radio to have small-scale DAB, what's going to be the impact on commercial radio?

Do you want to come in on that one? [Laughter.]

I think the silence speaks volumes. That's a big 'What if?' and I think it's just another way for them to broadcast. They're already on FM; if they're on small-scale DAB, that's great. As I said earlier, we welcome community radio; we've got no quarrel with them whatsoever. So, if they're extended on to small-scale DAB, as far as—. I can't see a problem. 

It's an active area that DCMS are looking at currently. From our perspective, as a multiplex operator, I don't understand the reasons why we'd be potentially prevented from operating in that sector. For example, Aberystwyth would be a good place to have a small-scale DAB multiplex, and yet, as the proposals stand, as a multiplex operator we'd only be allowed to have, I think, 50 per cent shareholding in that company. My only other point on small-scale DAB is, again, we've got to be quite careful that we don't go into places like, I don't know, Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, Aberystwyth and suddenly create, through a lattice effect of small-scale DAB, something that undermines the local DAB layer that we've tried to create. So, there is a small danger there. I think it's small, and certainly it's smaller in areas like Cardiff than it would be in rural west Wales. 

Okay, thank you for that. I'm finding this a really difficult area to delve into, because you guys are commercial operators. So, on one level, why on earth would you be wanting to promote community radio or support community radio? Because, potentially, they are competitors for your advertisers. 

Yes, I completely agree. Going back, Jenny, to the point you made earlier about whether the DAB would be a competitor to us, I think our biggest competitor is new media, is streaming, Spotify and the likes of—[Inaudible.] That's where we, as an industry, should be turning our attention to consider, and going back to Jack's point about the youth who are not necessarily tuning in to radio as they used to do many years ago, that's where our attention, that's where our focus and efforts, are being placed now: from a streaming perspective, from a Spotify product and numerous other providers. That's where we are spending our time focusing; we're not necessarily concerned too much about the DAB side of it, because, if people are listening to radio, that's good for the sector, it's good for the business. So, our efforts are very much turning to streaming and the products there. 

And also, with the more stations available and the more ways to listen, lots of people are still listening to the radio more than ever before, but listening to individual stations for fewer hours. That's the problem that damages the advertising—when you have a lot of people being reached but not listening for very long—and that's a major challenge for every commercial radio operator. 

I made a submission to the DCMS small-scale advisory—. I agree with Martin. I think it's gone about it the wrong way. Small-scale DAB technology is a great technology for getting in the holes that haven't been plugged or can't be plugged by landscape problems or various other problems. What should have been done is there should have been a better consultation on that whereby you could have looked at Martin's situation in Aberystwyth and said, 'Actually, let's give a small-scale DAB licence to Martin in Aberystwyth so he can fill the hole of what's on offer', and, yes, any community radio stations that might want to pop up on the fringes of Aberystwyth might be able to get space on that. But the problem is I think the DCMS have looked at it in terms of another layer of delivery as opposed to plugging the holes.

One benefit of small-scale DAB technology, coming back to the transmitter issue—and Martin raised this; these guys have all raised it already. You know, there's only one horse in town when it comes to major transmission in Britain, and that's Arqiva. They have a monopoly on delivering FM and most DAB in the country. The one thing that the DCMS project does look at, by virtue of the ownership rules, is it does allow the possible creation of far more transmitters—small transmitters—across the country, in a rival to Arqiva, which may also drive down those transmission prices. Because, whilst I understand topography and landscape is a big problem for the transmission, I also understand that a monopoly is a problem for transmission, and these guys often only have one company to go to get their frequency out.  

09:55

Okay. So, the DCMS have raised this elephant in the room but are they planning to do anything about it?

Yes. They're all gung-ho for having—a private Members' Bill has gone through to pursue small-scale DAB. The consultation that I've just been part of was about how we deliver this. They are planning to do it through, I understand, secondary legislation, so it is not going to be a brand new Act of Parliament when they want to deliver certain things. So, I would advise the Assembly and the Welsh Government to have a look at whether there's any way of manipulating that secondary legislation in Parliament that would facilitate you guys having some control or some knowledge or some influence on how those transmitters are set up in Wales, to the benefit of everyone. 

Okay, because one of you submitted evidence about how, in the north of Wales, there are various options that have delivered better services for, for example, Liverpool, but it doesn't seem to have benefited the population on the north coast of Wales. Is that right?

I think the way transmitters are set up in this country there's always going to be bleed, as they call it, which means you go into areas where you don't want to get at. History will always tell you that people in Cardiff here turned their aerials to Bristol in the 1970s and 1980s and people in Rhyl were watching more Granada Television than they were HTV Wales. I think, coming back to a general point, we need to get the technology to work for us as opposed to us working for the technology. I think technology can be manipulated to deliver whatever programming, whatever content, whatever culture we want it to do. I would hate a situation where technology decides what we do. Arguably, with Spotify and the new media area, you're getting to that situation where, you know, Spotify are leading the world and Spotify are deciding what music you like, what tone you like, what voices you like, what language you like. And that's a pretty difficult place for these guys to be in, I think. 

Okay. I think that's a very important point. There clearly is a tendency towards monopolisation across the whole of the media that should concern us all. But if commercial radio produces so much of its content outside Wales how can you then describe yourselves as serving your communities?

I think that from a Global point of view—I think I've touched on it earlier—a portion of our output is served outside of Wales and a portion of that output is served inside Wales, which is fed to our listeners, and over 45 to 46 per cent of Wales enjoy that output. In one sense, how do we do it? We do what we do how we do it—and I think I've described that—and it's been extremely well received. So, I think that from a Wales point of view, a Welsh locality point of view, the news, the traffic and travel, that element, is absolutely all about Wales, produced by people who live here, locally, et cetera—so, that's the core localness. The output from the presenter, the music we play, is a national brand delivered locally, which is working across the UK in the very same effective sense as it is in Wales. So, you've got the hybrid of the two scenarios, and that allows us—that strategy and that model allows Global to invest in the business in the areas where we believe we will get the best return for our business from a product point of view, from a brand development point of view. 

And the issue we have currently is the BBC and Radio 1 and Radio 2 in particular have massive dominance—

Okay. We're coming on to that. I'll hold fire on that.

10:00

I would like to make one brief point on this, and again it's around 'be careful what you wish for'. So, travel news, hugely important—it doesn't matter where it's collated, it matters that it's correct. So, the travel news provider in Wales, these guys, historically, have embedded people or information coming from the traffic control centre on the roundabout by the A470. There was no room there when we launched Nation Radio, so our travel news is collated using exactly the same information and all the cameras from the M4 by a team in Bristol. Now, it's still travel news relevant for Wales, but in this case it's being produced outside of Wales.

Okay. Just returning the focus onto community radio, do you think that the BBC could play a greater role in enhancing community radio? Our interest is in the hyperlocal to strengthen community cohesion.

This is not a popular view, but I'll express it anyway. We all pay for the BBC. My view is the BBC's content should be, therefore, available to commercial broadcasters and community broadcasters and the BBC's a bit too protective of it. But they're not here to talk about that. That's my view—that, actually, if it is a true public service then we should be able to take the BBC's content and use it. But that doesn't necessarily help plurality in Wales. 

Okay, but I think there is collaboration between the BBC and community radio, certainly in terms of providing news to them, because news, obviously, is the most expensive thing to generate accurately. So, there's nothing else you think that the BBC could be doing, leaving aside your relationship with them—

Well, there are steps. There's the new local journalism project from the BBC, which I think they're in the process of recruiting in Wales. So, we would, in fact, expect to see the fruits of that, but that's still some months down the line, isn't it?

I was just going to ask: if the restraints on community radio are let off the leash, in terms of being able to hunt for more commercial advertising, would you squeal at that or would you tolerate it?

It depends which market you're in. If you're in Cardiff where there's 1 million chimney pots, it really is unlikely to make a difference. If you're running a radio station in Ceredigion, where there are 72,000 chimney pots, it potentially makes quite a big difference. So, it's horses for courses. 

Just very quickly, to also note that I know that Communicorp and Global firmly support the student radio sector, which is something we haven't really touched upon. We're fully invested in the next generation of future talent and we spend time providing training and guidance for the likes of the guys at Xpress and Dragon. So, that's another sector that we haven't really touched upon, but I think it's crucial that that's mentioned.

If you could send us more information on that, that would be useful, because we haven't had that much evidence from that sector. That would be really useful. Okay, Neil Hamilton on the BBC.

Yes. I'd like to find out what's your assessment of BBC radio services in Wales. The figures that we've been given by the BBC are that, on average, 372,000 people listen to BBC Radio Wales each week. That's about 5 per cent of the listening public, behind Radio 1, Radio 2 and Radio 4 and Heart South Wales. And, on average, Radio Wales listeners tune in for about eight hours a week, which is quite a lot, I think, by the sound of it. Radio Cymru reaches 127,000 adults in Wales and the average listener spends 11 hours listening to that. That's the most popular station for fluent Welsh speakers and accounts for 20 per cent of their radio listening in 2017. Is the BBC making the most of its privileged position, which you referred to a moment ago, as a massive distortion in the market for radio services generally? I appreciate the point that you made that, if you had access to their content, if you could use it freely, that would massively free things up. So, what can we do to change the system to promote the kind of diversity that we want, but without prejudicing the public interest elements of news gathering and reporting and so on? 

I think, at the moment, the BBC dominance in Wales, it's largely driven by the national stations, when you add that in to Radio Wales and Radio Cymru. I think the major challenge, and commercial radio are united on this, is that we need Radio 1 and Radio 2 to be distinctive. Radio 1 has recently had—Ofcom have revisited what they define as new music for the BBC and commercial radio. Radio 1's commitment is to have 50 per cent new music, which sounds like a lot, but it's easily counted because it's 'play one old song, play one new song'. So, when they introduce things, like they have done recently, the section called Radio 1's Greatest Hits, which is a large swathe of music from anything back to 2000 and beyond, then that, for me, is not fulfilling the remit of what Radio 1 should be, which is a youth music service for the young people of the UK, breaking new music like no-one else can.

It's difficult for commercial radio to compete against the might of the BBC. As we've all touched upon, the local content we provide is our key to success. We do more of it than we have to because we know that's what will help us gain audiences, and that's vitally important. But, when you're faced with this increasing competition from the BBC becoming what, from the outside in—I used to work at the BBC—looks to be becoming almost wider, broader and more mainstream, then that's going to put even more pressure on commercial audiences up and down the country, especially in Wales.

10:05

I completely agree with all of that. The dominance of Radio 2, which did used to have a target audience of some 50-plus, has moved bang into where commercial radio historically sat. It's caused problems for BBC national radio here in Wales, because it doesn't know where it should be and it's beginning to migrate. Whether that's financial or whether it's relentless pursuit of audience, it's beginning to replace speech programming with music programming and it's beginning to sound a little bit more commercial. Perhaps that's what you should address: what do we want BBC Radio Wales in particular, actually,—because it's fairly obvious what Radio Cymru is here to deliver—to deliver?

Unfortunately, the BBC is measured in the same way as us, so everyone thinks success for the BBC is how many people are tuning in, and that isn't necessarily the case, I believe, when you're funding an organisation with public funding. So, that's where I would start—to look at that. But, there used to be a massive difference between Radio 1 and Radio 2, and now it's all merged together. So, we've had to try to find our place in that market as commercial broadcasters, even though we're far more restricted in the ways we're allowed to change. At the same time, BBC Radio Wales, I think, is trying to find its way. I'd be suggesting to the BBC that they should be investing particularly in speech programming. 

Speaking for myself, I've never understood why a publicly funded broadcaster should be running a channel like Radio 1 at all, because that could be provided for entirely from the commercial sector. Of course, I can understand why a public service broadcaster needs to be in existence for news services and so on, so long as that's properly run as well and is as free as you can be from bias, but the overlap of commercially oriented services that the BBC is currently focusing on seems to me to be a massive inhibition upon the growth of the commercial sector, which could plug a lot of the gaps that we are talking about in other ways in local and community radio. 

I think, when we look at the BBC in Wales, unfortunately, our eyes do travel across the border to the national outputs. I know that Colin Paterson, the editor of Radio Wales, was before you a few weeks ago, and he said, 'Never mind about Radio 1 and Radio 2, let's talk about how we can make Radio Wales better'. Well, I'm up for that conversation, but, fundamentally, the problem is always going to be that Radio 2 has stolen a march in Wales. I know Neil's going to hit me for this, but I want to go back to the good old days of Red Dragon Radio, mate—again. [Laughter.] When I was at Red Dragon Radio, Red Dragon was the market leader, then it was Radio Wales, I think, and Radio 2 was probably about—or Radio 1—third or fourth. There has been a massive change in the programming and the output of Radio 2 in the past 15 years that has made it become so popular.

One controversial thing I will put on the table, which is part BBC related and part commercial radio related, and I think it's worth considering, is that the market leader by a country mile in this country is Radio 2. The majority of the output from Radio 2 is—. I struggle—. Apart from Lynn Bowles, who's now left the travel, where's the Welsh voice on Radio 2? It's largely London based. There are substantial chunks of two groups' output here, which are very successful, which are from London. Maybe Welsh people don't like to listen to Welsh people on the radio.

10:10

Maybe there's something about them not wanting to listen to that, because if you take the pure numbers, over 90 per cent of listening to radio in Wales is done for content outside of Wales.

Well, that's a certainly challenging point of view. [Laughter.]

Oh, totally, yes, and what I would also say is, as I said before, it's about people from England walking the streets of Cardiff and talking about Cardiff. It's not about—. Yes, absolutely not, but I think Radio 2 has stolen a march, perhaps for that reason.

Well, I think that's a very interesting point, and what has struck me in the course of listening to your evidence this morning is we've got this massive focus upon regulation of non-BBC broadcasting, commercial stations and so on, and yet the BBC is such a dominant force in the market that is wholly outside this whole system. You've referred to transmission costs, but also regulation costs, as being a massive problem for creating greater diversity in commercial broadcasting. Then you've got this big block of the BBC, which is restricting your market potential by virtue of the privileged position that they hold and being funded by compulsory levies on the public. So, is our focus entirely wrong here? Should we not just be focusing upon regulation? Regulation is often said to be an analogue form in a digital age; by the time the legislation is on the statute book, technology has moved on today. And similarly, in regulatory terms, broadcasting reviews occur on an infrequent basis, by which time fast-moving technology has left it far behind.

I think technology—. Coming back to the point about the RAJAR statistics, one thing that we are woolly of as an industry is that we don't know that much about the new technologies and the audiences that they have. One statistic I did find out the other day is that Audioboom, who are a podcasting company who host certain podcasts from Wales, get 28,000 listeners a week from Wales alone. Now, they're a very small player. But, coming back to the BBC, I think there are certain burdens on the BBC that require them to behave in the way they do. I slightly disagree with you on the Radio 1 point. Although there are problems with Radio 1 for me, they are playing and breaking more new music bands, and have probably broken more new music from Wales than the other networks on the commercial side. So, there is a public service element too, and I would always say that Newsbeat is one of the greatest news programmes on British radio, attacking an audience that supposedly are disinterested in news.

I think a point, Neil, that's worth mentioning is that it's a unique position the BBC find themselves in. They have a tv station network behind them, so they're able to talk about what's happening on their radio stations to a mass market, a mass audience, which obviously, from a commercial radio point of view, we are unable to do. If you look at it from a marketing, advertising, communication perspective, they've got a whole market there—a mass market, to be honest—to advertise what they're doing, which will help their audience figures.

I suppose I should say that all my questions have been posed on a secure foundation of complete ignorance, because I never listen to either Radio 1 or Radio 2. But—

If you want to move on, I'm happy. But, before that, do you want me to move on to the next—?

Do you want to just cover quickly the BBC opt-out, because the Minister is waiting outside?

Yes. The evidence that we received from the BBC is that we couldn't have a news opt-out for Radio 1 or Radio 2 because the FM transmitter covers the west of England as well. For some strange reason, people in the west of England don't want to hear about Welsh news—apparently. So, what is your view on our proposal in a previous report of this committee for a news opt-out to make Welsh news more of a possibility within Wales on BBC network radio? Is this a good idea, in your view?

10:15

I'll just take that. What I found very interesting about the BBC's submission was that one minute they were telling you, 'You absolutely can't do this; we'd affect 2 million people in Somerset' and then suddenly they find 200,000 listeners from Somerset down the back of a sofa and say, 'Oh no, if we put this transmitter over here and put that transmitter—.' I think if you keep on asking the question you'll get that number down to zero. I think anything is possible technically. I think both are possibly technical, with investment, I grant you that. A couple of points that I would make on the relevance of that—. Look, in my heart I'm a big fan of both of those ideas, but we live in a digital age where people are consuming news and listening to new music in other ways.

So, also bear in mind that, from my point of view, if you look at all the BBC network radio, I have to say, of all the network radio stations, Radio 1 does far more to promote Wales—Welsh music, Welsh people, Welsh stories, and they even had Welsh language programmes on there—than any of the other networks. So, actually, perhaps Radio 1 is not the problem here. What's Radio 4 and Radio 5 doing for Welsh output? So, I don't really think it's a big problem for them, and, in this Spotify age, it may have been a decision by the BBC people in London not to do that programme. They're the people to ask about that I think, not BBC Wales. 

Os nad oes mwy o gyfraniadau ar y cwestiwn yna'n benodol rydym yn mynd i ddod â phethau i ben achos y diffyg amser sydd gennym nawr. Os oes unrhyw sylwadau ychwanegol gennych chi, yn seiliedig ar y drafodaeth neu'n seiliedig ar beth mae tystion eraill yn ei ddweud wrthym ni yn ystod y drafodaeth, yna plîs cysylltwch â ni, a byddai mwy o wybodaeth am y gwaith gyda myfyrwyr yn grêt. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn yma heddiw. 

If there are no further responses to that question specifically we'll bring things to an end because we've run out of time. If there are any further comments that you'd like to make, based on the discussion that we have had or what other witnesses say to us during this wider debate, then please do contact us, and more information about the work with the students would be great. But thank you very much for joining us today.  

3. Radio yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 6
3. Radio in Wales: Evidence Session 6

Rydym ni'n mynd i symud ymlaen yn syth at yr eitem nesaf, jest oherwydd ein bod yn hwyr o ran amser. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen nawr felly at eitem 3: radio yng Nghymru, sesiwn dystiolaeth 6, ac rydym ni'n croesawu Dafydd Elis-Thomas, y Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon, a hefyd Hywel Owen, arweinydd tîm polisi'r cyfryngau, Llywodraeth Cymru. Sori ein bod ni bach yn hwyr—roedd y sesiwn ar radio masnachol yn ddiddorol ac felly roeddem ni eisiau cael digon o dystiolaeth ganddyn nhw. 

We are going to move on straight away to the next item, just because we are running late. We now move on to item 3: radio in Wales, evidence session number 6, and we welcome Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, and also Hywel Owen, media policy team leader for the Welsh Government. I'm sorry that we're running a bit behind—the session on commercial radio was interesting and so we wanted to gather plenty of evidence from them.  

Roeddem ni'n gwrando. 

We were listening. 

Roeddech chi'n gwrando. Grêt. Falch o glywed, felly. 

You were listening. Great, I'm glad to hear it. 

Rwy'n wrandawr Capital yn y gogledd, so rydw i eisiau clywed beth maen nhw'n ddweud. 

I listen to Capital in north Wales, so I wanted to hear what they had to say.

Iawn. Efallai fod gennych chi sylwadau ar hyn o bryd. Mae gennym ni wahanol themâu—os yw hynny'n iawn—ac mi wnawn ni symud yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau. Byddaf i'n cychwyn gyda radio masnachol yn hynny o beth. A allwch chi roi eich barn chi ar effaith refeniw isel radio masnachol lleol yng Nghymru ar gynnwys lleol yng Nghymru? Beth ydych chi'n credu yw'r sialensau yng Nghymru? 

Right. Perhaps you have comments at the moment. We do have different themes to cover—if that is all right—and we'll move straight to questions. I will start with commercial radio in that regard. Could you give us your opinion on the impact of the low revenue of local commercial radio on local content in Wales? What do you see as being the challenges in Wales? 

Wel, mae'r ffigyrau diweddaraf yr ydw i wedi eu gweld yn dangos cynnydd. Rydw i'n gwybod ei fod o'n gynnydd yn yr incwm o lefel is, ond, gyda radio masnachol, yn amlwg, mae radio masnachol yn ddibynnol ar refeniw hysbysebu, mae'n dibynnu ar berfformiad yr economi ac ar natur yr economi mewn unrhyw genedl neu mewn unrhyw ranbarth, ac oherwydd bod cysylltiad amlwg rhwng radio masnachol a'r hyn sy'n digwydd yn yr economi, mae hynny'n bownd o gael ei effeithio yn y refeniw hysbysebu a hefyd yng nghapasiti yr orsaf i ddatblygu. Buaswn i'n dweud bod y gorsafoedd masnachol yng Nghymru wedi datblygu'n llwyddiannus iawn yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf ac mae hynny yn beth i'w groesawu. 

Well, the latest figures that I have seen show an increase. I know it's an increase at a lower level per capita, but, with commercial radio, clearly, commercial radio is reliant on advertising revenue, it relies on the performance of the economy and the nature of the economy in any given nation or any given region, and because there is a clear link between commercial radio and what happens within the economy, that's bound to be reflected in the advertising revenue and in the capacity of the station to develop. I would say that the commercial stations in Wales have developed very successfully over the past 20 years and that is something to be welcomed. 

10:20

A ydych chi'n credu bod strwythurau perchnogaeth radio masnachol yn cael effaith ar gynnwys lleol? Gwnaethom ni glywed barn wahanol yn y panel diwethaf lle y gwnaeth un o'r tystion y tu allan i'r sector, Marc Webber, ddweud bod rhyw fath o ddominyddu o berchnogaeth fasnachol yng Nghymru a bod diffyg, wedyn, pethau lleol ar y radio, ond roedd radio masnachol yn amlwg yn anghydfynd â hynny. Beth yw'ch persbectif chi o lefel y Llywodraeth? 

Do you believe that the ownership structures of commercial radio does have an impact on local content in Wales? We heard a different opinion in the last panel. One of the witnesses outside of the sector, Marc Webber, said that there was domination of commercial ownership in Wales and that local issues on radio were impacted negatively, but commercial radio didn't go along with that view. What's your perspective as a Government?

Wel, nid oes gyda ni, wrth gwrs—ac mi ddaw hyn yn amlwg yn ystod y dystiolaeth—nad oes gyda ni ddim ffordd o reoleiddio yr hyn sydd yn digwydd mewn darlledu masnachol nac yn wir mewn unrhyw fath o ddarlledu. Felly, pan fyddaf i'n mynegi barn, nid ydw i fel arfer—. Pan rwy'n siarad fel Gweinidog, rwy'n gallu disgrifio beth yw polisi Llywodraeth Cymru a beth rydym ni'n treial ei wneud mewn maes arbennig, ond nid oes gyda ni bolisi, dim ond bod gyda ni drosolwg ar bolisi cyhoeddus a sut mae o'n effeithio ar bobl Cymru. Mae hynny o ddiddordeb i ni, yn amlwg, ym maes darlledu. 

Mae cwestiwn strwythur radio masnachol yng Nghymru yn fater rydw i'n teimlo'n gryf amdano fo. Efallai y dylwn i ddatgan diddordeb hanesyddol fel un o gyfarwyddwyr Marcher Sound, wnaeth sefydlu Champion FM yng Nghaernarfon. Roedd hynny'n gyfnod lle'r oedd modd sefydlu gorsafoedd radio eithaf lleol, a'r rheini yn ddwyieithog iawn yn achos yr un oedd yng Nghaernarfon. Mae'n dda gen i fod Heart yn y gogledd a Capital Cymru wedi parhau â'r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg yn weddol. Ond, mae'r ffaith mai dim ond tri chwmni mewn gwirionedd sydd yn weithredol yn fasnachol yng Nghymru—ac rydych chi wedi bod yn siarad efo nhw bore yma—mae hyn yn cyfyngu ar beth sydd yn bosib i'w wneud ac amrywiaeth dewis gwrandawyr. Mae'r cwestiwn hefyd, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn â ble mae'r rhaglenni'n cael eu cynhyrchu. Beth yw'r cynnwys ac i ba raddau y mae'r cynnwys yn gynnwys sydd yn adlewyrchu diwylliant Cymreig neu hyd yn oed—os caf i ddweud o'n blwmp ac yn blaen—neu hyd yn oed yn adlewyrchu acen Gymreig. Hynny yw, nid ydyn nhw'n swnio yn Gymreig oherwydd bod yna lot o ddeunydd sydd yn cael ei gynhyrchu yn rhywle arall. Maen nhw'n swnio bron fel prif donfeddi'r BBC. 

Well, this will emerge during this evidence, but clearly, we have no way of regulating what happens in commercial broadcasting or indeed in any kind of broadcasting. Therefore, when I express a view, when I speak as Minister, I can usually describe what the Welsh Government policy is and what we intend to do in any given area. We have no policy in this area, but we do have an overview of public policy and how it impacts the people of Wales. That's clearly of interest to us in the sphere of broadcasting.

The questions surrounding the structure of commercial radio in Wales is an issue that I feel strongly about. I should perhaps declare a historical interest as one of the directors of Marcher Sound, which established Champion FM in Caernarfon. That was at a time when radio stations that were relatively local could be established and they were entirely bilingual in nature, the one in Caernarfon. I'm pleased to say that Heart in north Wales and Capital Cymru have maintained that Welsh language provision relatively well. But, the fact that there are only three companies, if truth be told, operating commercially in Wales—and you've been speaking to them this morning of course—this does restrict what can be delivered in terms of diversity of choice for listeners. There's also the question surrounding where the programming is produced, what the content is and to what extent that content is content that reflects Welsh culture or even, if I may speak plainly, reflects the Welsh accent. That is, they don't sound Welsh because much of the material is produced elsewhere. They almost sound like the main BBC networks. 

Unrhyw beth i ychwanegu at hynny?

Anything to add on that?

Rwy'n gwybod ein bod ni wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i chi o'r blaen yn eich ymchwiliad ar newyddiaduraeth ac efallai bod nifer o'r ffactorau yma—yn amlwg o ran papurau newydd, hefyd, o ran perchnogion—mae nifer o'r un pethau yn gyffredin. Hefyd, mae'n dod yn ôl i'r pwynt rŷm ni wedi bod yn ei wneud ers blynyddoedd o ran plwraliaeth, o ran ei bod hi'n bwysig cael cymaint o bobl â phosib i ddarparu newyddion a phethau sydd ddim yn newyddion hefyd. 

Well, we've given evidence to you before in your inquiry into journalism and perhaps a number of these factors—in terms of newspapers as well and the owners—they share many of the same common themes. Coming back to the point that we've made for years about plurality: it's important to have as many people as possible to provide news and also things that aren't news.

A ydych chi'n becso felly gyda'r symud i ddad-reoleiddio yn y sector yma? Yn amlwg, mae'r rheini yn y sector yn hoffi hynny, ond gall hynny lastwreiddio wedyn y cynnwys lleol. Nid ydw i eisiau mynd mewn i newyddion achos mae rhywun arall yn gofyn am hynny, ond o ran cynnwys Cymreig, cynnwys sydd yn gynhenid o Gymru, am bobl o Gymru, a ydych chi'n creu y byddai dad-reoleiddio yn hynny o beth yn amharu ar hynny?

Are you concerned therefore about the move to deregulate this sector? Clearly, those in the sector seem to welcome that, but that could dilute the local content. I don't want to go into news here because someone else is going to cover that, but in terms of inherently Welsh content that is about the people of Wales, do you think deregulation would have an impact on that? 

Mae'n ddrwg gen i, mae polisi Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn hollol glir—maen nhw'n mynd i wneud hynny, ac felly beth bynnag ddywedaf i neu y dywedwch chi bydd yna ddim newid yn hynny. Rwy'n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni fod yn realistig am y pethau yma, oherwydd os ydym ni yn delio â meysydd sydd heb eu datganoli, yna mae'n rhaid cael ffordd wahanol o ddylanwadu ac o sicrhau buddiannau Cymru o fewn y drefn yna. Dyna rydym ni wedi ceisio ei wneud fel Llywodraeth, ac rydw i wedi bod yn ymwneud a'r broses yma rŵan ers chwe mis.

Rŷm ni wedi ceisio dylanwadu drwy sicrhau bod cynrychiolaeth gan Gymru ar y cyrff sydd yn rheoleiddio—Ofcom yn arbennig, wrth gwrs, ac i raddau y BBC. Mae hynny wedi cael ei wneud yn llwyddiannus, cyn fy nghyfnod i yn y swydd, ac efallai y byddai Hywel yn hoffi sôn rhywbeth am hynny. Ond ni allwn ni, fel Llywodraeth, gymryd unrhyw benderfyniad sy'n effeithio ar bolisi darlledu heblaw ein bod ni'n gweithio drwy sicrhau cynrychiolaeth gref o Gymru ar fwrdd Ofcom, ac mae'r broses yna yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw'r swydd eto wedi'i hysbysebu, ond mae'r Alban wedi hysbysebu ac wedi penodi, rydw i'n credu.

Wedyn, mae'r gynrychiolaeth genedlaethol o'r cenhedloedd ar Ofcom, mae hynny wedi digwydd. Rydw i'n gobeithio y bydd gwaith corff sydd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i chi, sef pwyllgor cynghori Cymru Ofcom, y bydd y gwaith yna hefyd yn parhau a chryfhau ar ôl i ni allu dod ymlaen gyda'r penodiad o aelod. Gwelwn ni hefyd y bydd y pwyllgor yn cael ei ailsefydlu; mae'n debyg dyna fyddai'r sefyllfa yn yr achos yna. Nid ydw i wedi holi Ofcom yn fanwl ynglŷn â hynny, ond rydw i wedi cael cyfarfod efo nhw yn anffurfiol i drafod y sefyllfa.

Well, I'm sorry, the United Kingdom Government policy is very clear on that so whatever I say or whatever you say, there won't be any change in that. I think we have to be realistic about that. If we're dealing with areas that haven't been devolved, then we have to have a different way of influencing them and ensuring that Welsh interests are maintained within that regime. That's what we're trying to do as a Government, and I've been involved in this process now for six months.

We have tried to influence by ensuring there's representation from Wales on the bodies that regulate—Ofcom in particular, of course, and to some extent the BBC. That has been done successfully, before my period in the post, and perhaps Hywel would like to talk about that. But we, as a Government, can't take any decision that affects broadcast policy unless we work by ensuring strong representation from Wales on the Ofcom board, and that process is ongoing. The post hasn't been advertised yet, but Scotland has advertised, I believe, and has made an appointment, I believe.

So, national representation of the individual nations on Ofcom, that has happened. I hope that a body that has given evidence to you, which is the Wales advisory board of Ofcom, I hope that their work will also be ongoing and hopefully will be strengthened after we come forward with the appointment of a member. We will also see the committee being re-established; I believe that that will be the situation then. I haven't asked Ofcom in detail about that, but I have had a meeting with them informally to discuss this issue.

10:25

Ond a ydych chi'n credu bod modd i chi, fel Gweinidog, i ddylanwadu neu i roi cyfraniad i mewn i DCMS yn ogystal â threfniadau newydd Ofcom? A oes yna fodd i chi ymwneud gyda'r sefyllfa yn hynny o beth?

But do you believe that it would be possible for you, as Minister, to have an influence or to make a submission to DCMS in addition to the new Ofcom arrangements that you've mentioned? Couldn't you become engaged with the situation in that way?

Na, nid ydw i'n credu. Rydw i'n cyfarfod yn achlysurol gyda Gweinidogion y Deyrnas Unedig lle mae gennym ni bolisïau cyffredin. Cefais i gyfarfod ynglŷn â thwristiaeth a oedd yn cynnwys yr Alban, wrth gwrs, a Chymru, a'r Deyrnas Unedig—ac, wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n cynnwys Lloegr yn bennaf—ac, wrth gwrs, y gweision sifil o Ogledd Iwerddon.

Mae'n bosib y byddai fo'n ddefnyddiol, pe byddech chi'n dewis argymell hynny— mi fyddwn ni, wrth gwrs, yn ei ystyried o yn ddifrifol iawn—y byddai fo yn beth defnyddiol i ni gael cyfarfod o Weinidogion darlledu y Deyrnas Unedig. Ond gan nad yw darlledu wedi'i ddatganoli yn yr Alban, yng Nghymru, nag yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, nid oes gennym ni fel Gweinidogion diwylliant, neu unrhyw faes arall yn y gwledydd yna, ddim ffordd o weithredu yn uniongyrchol.

Nid ydw i'n hoff o'r syniad yma mai swydd Gweinidogion y Goron yng Nghymru ydy mynd, â'n capiau yn ein dwylo neu ein capiau ar ein pennau neu le bynnag, i ofyn i Weinidogion DCMS, 'A wnewch chi plîs gofio am Gymru?', achos nid dyna'r ffordd i weithio. Rydw i'n meddwl mai'r ffordd i weithio ydy bod gan Gymru gynrychiolaeth statudol gadarn yng nghyrff rheoleiddio y Deyrnas Unedig. Dyna sydd gyda ni yn y BBC. Dyna sydd gyda ni bellach yn Ofcom. Rydw i'n awyddus iawn i weld hynny yn cael ei ddatblygu, oherwydd dyna'r ffordd rydym ni fel Llywodraeth wedi penderfynu ydy'r ffordd fwyaf effeithiol o weithredu.

No, I don't think so. I meet UK Ministers periodically, where we have common policies. I had a meeting with regard to tourism that included Scotland, Wales and the United Kingdom—and that, of course, includes England mainly—and, of course, the civil servants from Northern Ireland.

It's possible that it would be useful, if you chose to recommend it, that when we do consider it seriously, that it would be useful for us to have a meeting of Ministers with responsibility for broadcasting on a UK level. But as broadcasting hasn't been devolved to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, we as culture Ministers, or any other related area in those countries, don't have any way of taking direct action.

I'm not particularly fond of this idea that the role of Crown Ministers is to go, cap in hand, to ask DCMS Ministers, 'Please remember Wales', because that's not the way to operate. I think that the way to operate is that Wales has statutory representation, robust representation on the UK regulatory bodies. That's what we do have with the BBC. That's what we now have in Ofcom. I'm very eager to see that being developed, because that's the way that we as a Government have decided is the most effective way of operating.

Mae'n dibynnu ar eich analysis. Ni fyddwn i'n dweud y byddwn i eisiau i ni fynd gyda'n cap yn ein llaw, ond byddem ni eisiau cyfrannu syniadau, rhannu syniadau creadigol, yng nghyd-destun beth y gallai Cymru ei gynnig, yn hytrach nag, efallai, y dehongliad mwy negyddol rydych chi wedi'i roi i ni yma heddiw.

It depends on your analysis. I'm not saying that I would want to go cap in hand, but we would certainly want to contribute ideas and to share creative ideas in the context of what Wales could offer, rather than the more negative interpretation that you've proposed today.

Wel, nid ydw i eisiau'r DCMS yn dweud wrthyf i nag wrth Gymru beth y dylem ni fod yn ei wneud. Mae gen i lawer mwy o ymddiriedaeth yn y sefyllfa lle mae gyda ni gomisiynwyr o fewn y BBC, er enghraifft, ac rydw i'n gobeithio, gyda'r ad-drefnu sydd yn digwydd, gyda Channel 4. Nid yw hynny'n berthnasol yn uniongyrchol i radio, ond mae o'n berthnasol iawn i'r economi ddarlledu yng Nghymru. Os cawn ni fantais allan o'r penderfyniadau i adleoli rheolaeth Channel 4, bydd yna gomisiynwyr yn gweithio yng Nghymru ac yn gallu trafod syniadau yn ddyddiol gyda darlledwyr a chynhyrchwyr. Dyna'r ffordd y mae rhywun yn cael syniadau creadigol, rydw i'n credu, ac nid ydw i'n credu bod yna lefel uchel o greadigrwydd ymhlith Gweinidogion DCMS nag, o bosib, yn rhywun fel fi yn fy swydd i.

Well, I don't want DCMS saying to me or to Wales what we should be doing. I have far more trust in the situation where we have commissioners within the BBC, for example, and I hope, with the re-organisation that's happening, with Channel 4. That's not relevant directly to radio, but it is very relevant to the broadcast economy in Wales. If we benefit from the decision to relocate Channel 4, then there will be a commissioner in Wales that will be able to discuss ideas daily with broadcasters and producers. That's the way that one gets creative ideas, I think, and I don't think that there's a high level of creativity among DCMS Ministers or, possibly, someone like me in my post.

Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, mae'r memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth gydag Ofcom wedi cael ei gytuno, felly mae hwnnw yn ddogfen bwysig iawn. Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, yng nghyd-destun siarter y BBC, roedd yna femorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth bryd hynny, ac rwy'n credu bu hwnnw'n fantais fawr i ni, fel Llywodraeth, ac i Gymru, o ran y siarter derfynol. Cawsom ni nifer o bethau yn y siarter derfynol—ddim popeth yr oeddem ni, fel Llywodraeth, ei eisiau, ond gwnaeth y ffaith bod gennym ni femorandwm ffurfiol arwain at nifer o bethau y gwnaethom ni lwyddo eu cael yn y siarter derfynol. O ran Ofcom, er enghraifft, rydym ni wedi bod yn ymateb i ymgynghoriadau, a'u hadroddiad blynyddol yn ddiweddar. Felly, dyna'r math o beth yr ydym ni'n ei wneud fel Llywodraeth, jest er gwybodaeth.

As you know, the memorandum of understanding with Ofcom has been agreed, and that's a very important document. As you know, in the context of the BBC charter, there was a memorandum of understanding at that point, and I think that was of great advantage to us, as a Government, and to Wales more broadly in terms of the final charter. There were a number of things in the charter—not everything that we, as a Government, wanted, but the fact that we had a formal memorandum in place led to a number of issues that we succeeded to get included in the final charter. In terms of Ofcom, we respond to consultations, and we've responded to their annual report recently. So, that's the kind of thing that we're doing as a Government, just for information.

10:30

Ie, wel, dyna beth yr oeddwn i'n mynd i'w ddweud. Rydych chi wedi rhoi ymateb i mewn i Ofcom, a oedd wedi cael ei roi inni. Felly, mae hynny'n ymwneud â'r sefyllfa, mewn ffordd. Dyna beth yr oeddwn yn trio ei ddeall: eich bod yn ei wneud yn barod, yn hynny o beth.

Well, that's what I was going to say. You've responded to Ofcom and that was passed on to us. So, that relates to the situation, and that's what I was trying to understand: that you're doing it already in that regard.

Rydw i'n falch eich bod chi wedi sbotio'r ffordd yr ydym yn gweithio, oherwydd dyma ydy polisi cadarn y Llywodraeth yn y maes yma, sef ein bod ni yn Cymreigio'r rheoleiddiwr, bod gan reoleiddiwr y Deyrnas Unedig lais a chynrychiolaeth statudol Gymreig, gref arno fo, a hefyd bod gennym lais ymgynghorol reit gryf drwy gyfrwng y pwyllgor cynghori, ac yna bod y neges yn mynd yn ffurfiol yn y ffordd honno. Yna, dyna'r lle, wedyn, y mae modd i ni, fel Gweinidogion sydd yn penodi yr aelodau o'r rheoleiddwyr yma i gynrychioli Cymru, a hefyd S4C—. Mae Hywel wedi bod yn rhan o'r broses honno hefyd, yn ddiweddar, ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru, lle'r ydym ni'n gallu penodi yr aelodau sydd yn cynrychioli buddiannau y cyhoedd mewn darlledu yng Nghymru, a'r rheini'n cael eu penodi gan Weinidogion Cymru, neu bod gennym ni ran statudol yn y penodiad. Mae hynny'n golygu y gallwn ni alw ar y bobl hynny i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gweithredu yn ôl anghenion pobl Cymru. Mae hynny'n llawer iawn mwy effeithiol. Nid mater o siarad yn neis efo Gweinidog arall yn rhywle, ar ôl rhyw gynhadledd ydy hyn, ond bod y cyfan yn dryloyw ac yn weithredol fel rhan o'r cyfansoddiad, wrth gwrs.

Well, I'm pleased you've spotted how we're working in this area, because this is the Government's firm policy in this area, namely that we make the regulator more Welsh, that the regulator has a statutory Welsh voice upon it, also with a strong consultative voice through the medium of the advisory committee, and then that that message is conveyed formally in that way. That is where we, as Ministers, who appoint these members to the regulators to represent Wales, and also in terms of S4C—. Hywel has been part of that process, too, recently on behalf of the Welsh Government, where we can appoint the members representing the public interest in broadcasting in Wales. They are appointed by Welsh Ministers, or we have a statutory role in that appointment. That means that we can call on those people to ensure that they do take actions that are in keeping with the needs of the people of Wales, and that's far more effective. It's not a matter of speaking warmly to another Minister in some conference somewhere—it's all transparent and all operational as part of the constitution.

Ocê. Diolch. Symud ymlaen at Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. Moving on to Jenny Rathbone.

The deregulation of music content on commercial radio seems to have just been waved through because it was, obviously, a UK-wide consultation, and yet, isn't this extremely bad news for the development and promotion of Welsh music?

Well, I don't see that much Welsh music on what is currently regulated, quite frankly, in terms of commercial radio.

Well, I would agree with you on that, but that's not a reason for not trying to do something about it.

Again, I'm in a difficult situation on that. This is UK Government policy, and it's about their view that competition is good in the cultural sector. Now, obviously, where I come from, I don't necessarily agree with that point of view, but we are unable to influence it.

Well, surely, we should be able to influence it, simply because—. You've said very clearly your views about not deregulating news content, so is it not perfectly possible for you to have a view on cultural content?

Well, I may have a view, but we are not, in any way, able to implement our views.

If I were to make representations, I don't—. I'm not stupid; I've been a politician for too long. There's no point in me pretending to people in Wales that I can, as culture Minister, represent issues to a Conservative Government that is totally driven by market forces across the whole of economy and culture, that they should stop deregulating something in Wales, or indeed in the United Kingdom, because they would take no notice.

Okay, I appreciate that, but I think the letter we've just received has a very rosy idea. Margot James, the Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries, has this fond idea that they don't expect a deregulated radio industry to change their format to serve mainstream or—. They don't expect this to change the type of service we get in Wales, and she thinks that stations will be able to experiment with music to better respond to the needs of listeners. This goes against the grain from the general monopolisation of the airwaves across the world. There's nothing now preventing people from transmitting radio from California, is there?

10:35

Okay, but we clearly have to think what we're going to do if we're going to conserve the cultural distinctiveness of Wales, because otherwise it will just be washed away.

No, I have no fear of that at all, because we are now in a world of numerous digital platforms. Therefore, it's not just about broadcast radio; it's also about—you had a discussion earlier about Spotify and about materials available on the web and on apps. So, the key thing for me is that Welsh music, in both languages, needs to be made available on as many platforms as possible, not that it is conserved only in one bandwidth or on one set of transmitters. That is the view of S4C, I'm pleased to say, because I've had some very useful discussions, both with the chair and the chief executive of S4C, and I look forward to having more discussions in the future in the general area of how we can ensure that there is a cultural choice involving both languages in Wales, and the cultures of Wales—that that choice is available. I think the answer—and again, Ofcom is involved here—is about maximising the digital offer on as many platforms as possible.

Okay. So, in terms of the legislation that's going through Parliament at the moment, you don't think there's a role for the Welsh Government to try and influence the shape of that.

Well, I haven’t suggested to any of my colleagues—. The First Minister would be the obvious person here, because he has oversight of our relationships with the UK Government. There’s been no suggestion that we should seek to amend this legislation. I don’t see how you can argue with the United Kingdom Government that there should be a devolved regulatory system. Because when their whole drive is to deregulate, they're not going to say, 'We will deregulate in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but we won't deregulate in Wales'. That would not be logical from their point of view. So, I don’t see the point of engaging—

No, I can understand that, but it's still possible to influence the shape of whatever legislation is going to be passed by the UK Parliament to affect all of our nations.

Well, 'That’s a matter for Members of Parliament' would be my answer to that—which I am, obviously—but I've got no intention of trying to spend time in the upper House to seek amendments to a deregulation Bill that the Government will push through with its majority anyway.

So, we just lie down and accept whatever we're going to get.

Well, no, I’m just being realistic. My role is to use the powers that we have in devolved Wales in the most effective way possible to promote the culture, the well-being, the sporting activities and the economic importance of the tourist industry. That is my job, and in the area of culture, in particular, I don’t think that it is realistic for a devolved government to try to take on the United Kingdom Government when the whole policy drive, especially on deregulation, is driven by a market-led approach, which we don’t share. Clearly, our approach in the Government is an approach that involves the social market, the environmental market and the cultural market in all senses. I much prefer to concentrate on strengthening the regulators to ensure that we can, in that way, enable content to be diverse.

10:40

Yes, Ofcom. And, of course, the BBC is an independent organisation, but we believe that what was achieved—it was achieved before I joined the Government—I think it's a great success the agreement that enabled changes in the charter renewal process of the BBC, and it's a very good model, and it's a model we intend to follow, certainly in the way that Ofcom is developing.

Okay. You said in your written evidence that you don't want to see a further relaxation or removal of the current localness rules on commercial radio. What then do you think should be done about ensuring that Welsh broadcasters are transmitting Welsh news, given the paucity, as you have already highlighted, of print services' coverage of Welsh politics?

Well, I'm not as concerned as—. I'm not only concerned about the coverage of politics. I'm concerned about the coverage of Welsh news or news generated about Wales generally and also in relation to democratic issues, particularly—what happens in local government, what happens in regions in Wales; it's not just about what happens here. The issue there is to draw attention as clearly as we can to the understanding, which has not emerged sufficiently clearly in the DCMS approach, that it's not just about the United Kingdom, which many UK politicians, even when they're speaking in Scotland and in Wales, describe as a nation. The United Kingdom is a multinational state, and always has been. That's a historical fact. But they don't think of it like that very often, so they talk about the UK, and then when they talk about 'national' they tend to conflate that with the UK, and then they talk about local, but the bit they miss out is that in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland there is a whole polity that considers itself to be a province—or whatever side you're on in Northern Ireland, so to speak—or a nation in the case of Wales and Scotland. So, that has not been reflected in the policy thinking of DCMS. But I hope that we can ensure that Ofcom, through the membership from the nations, can more clearly develop that sense of the UK as a multinational state in the area of broadcasting and culture and telecommunications and all the other responsibilities of Ofcom.

But focusing on commercial radio and its role in what people listen to in Wales—it's just under 40 per cent of people in Wales who listen to commercial radio—you don't think that there's anything further to be done to ensure that they are covering all-Wales news.

Well, you heard your earlier witnesses say that people were listening to what they were listening to, and because they were listening to what they were listening to, that's what they wanted.

Well, commercial operators, unless they're regulated, will of course just go for the lowest common denominator—

Yes, exactly. What we are trying to develop in this paper and in our general approach is the importance when decisions are being made in policy terms—and I'm referring especially now to a perception of the category of 'nations' by DCMS in its way of approaching broadcast regulation. That is the area in which we as a Government need to speak out clearly and therefore to argue that the people of Wales have to have a choice in relation to being able to represent themselves on media and have a public discourse that is national in that sense. But I don't think that is done just by regulation; it's done also by a cultural debate with the broadcasters about their role within the greater society, and I didn't see much sign of that this morning in the evidence you had. 

10:45

But unless there are regulations in place, they will simply transmit whatever they're transmitting to the rest of the United Kingdom. 

Yes, but I don't think that it's possible for us to regulate in the area of broadcasting as a Welsh Government ourselves, because clearly broadcasting is not devolved. It has to—

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we need to work through the regulatory mechanisms that we have. And, therefore, Ofcom presents that opportunity, among other regulators in this area. 

Rwy'n deall ei bod hi'n anodd iawn ceisio atal dadreoleiddio gan Lywodraeth yn San Steffan lle mae'n rhan o'u hideoleg i ddadreoleiddio, ac eich bod chi'n gweld mai'r ffordd i ddylanwadu ydy trwy'r cynrychiolydd Cymreig ar fwrdd Ofcom. Ond, wrth gwrs, un llais ydy hwnnw mewn bwrdd o wn i ddim faint o bobl. Mewn ffordd, onid ydych chi'n gwneud yr achos dros ddatganoli darlledu fel yr ateb tymor hir, fel bod pobl Cymru wirioneddol yn gallu dylanwadu ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd o ran y cynnwys, o ran y diwylliant, o fewn y darlledu sydd gennym ni yn fan hyn? Nid ydych chi eisiau ystyried edrych ar y materion yna, yn ôl beth rydych chi wedi ei ddadlau yn y Siambr.  

I understand that it is very difficult to try to prevent deregulation by a Government in Westminster where it's part of their ideology to deregulate, and that you see that the way to influence is via the Welsh representative on the Ofcom board. But, of course, that's one voice on a board of I don't know how many people. In a way, aren't you making the case for devolution of broadcasting as a long-term solution, so that the people of Wales can genuinely influence what's happening in terms of content, in terms of culture, within the broadcasting that we have here? You do not want to consider looking at those particular issues, according to what you've said in the Chamber.  

Nid yw'n bolisi Llywodraeth Cymru i ddatganoli darlledu oherwydd ein bod ni'n credu bod yr economi ddarlledu yn bwysig iawn i ni yng Nghymru, a'n bod ni eisiau gweld cryfhau yr economi ddarlledu yng Nghymru. Mae'r hyn rydym yn ceisio ei wneud ar y funud—ac rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn am yr arweiniad rydym yn ei gael gan arweinydd dinas a sir Caerdydd, Huw Thomas, a'r ymgyrch i geisio denu pa ran bynnag sy'n bosibl i'w denu o Channel 4 wedi ei had-drefnu, denu hynny i Gymru—rwy'n meddwl bod hyn yn gynhyrfus iawn. Rwyf eisiau gweld Cymru yn cael ei gweld—. Nid datganoli darlledu rwyf eisiau ei weld yn digwydd, ond bod Cymru yn dal i ddarlledu mwy a mwy yn y ddwy iaith, a hynny ar gymaint o lwyfannau ag sy'n bosibl, gan fod yr economi ddarlledu sydd wedi datblygu yma yn allweddol i ddatblygu diwylliant a swyddi, nid jest yng Nghaerdydd, ond yn y gogledd ac yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol. 

It's not the policy of the Welsh Government to devolve broadcasting because we believe that the broadcast economy is very important to us here in Wales, and that we want to see the broadcast economy strengthened in Wales. What we're trying to do at the moment—and I'm very grateful for the leadership that we've seen from the leader of Cardiff council, Huw Thomas, and the attempt to attract whatever part of Channel 4 after re-organisation that can possibly be attracted to Wales—is very exciting. I want to see Wales being seen—. It's not the devolution of broadcasting that I want to see; I want to see Wales continuing to broadcast more and more in both languages on as many platforms as possible, because the broadcast economy that's developed here is crucial to the development of culture and jobs, not only in Cardiff but in north Wales and in Wales more generally.  

Jest i ddod yn ôl un waith: beth rydym ni wedi bod yn ei drafod y bore yma, mae yna ddatrysiad iddo fo, sef gwneud rhywbeth ein hunain. Mae'n siomedig nad ydych chi ddim hyd yn oed yn ystyried—. Mi fyddwn ni yn gwthio, yn amlwg, i jest ddechrau ystyried yr opsiynau ynglŷn â datganoli elfennau o ddarlledu. Ond mi wna i ei adael o'n fanna, achos rydym yn anghytuno. 

Just to come back one final time: what we've been discussing this morning, there is a solution to it, namely to do something ourselves, and it's disappointing that you're not even considering—. We would push you to just start considering the devolution of elements of broadcasting. I'll leave it there, because we disagree on that.  

Jenny, a oes unrhyw beth arall gyda chi? 

Jenny, do you have anything else? 

I think the major issue around commercial radio is the monopoly that Arqiva has on the FM and the DAB signals in Wales, and if the Government isn't prepared to get the UK Government to do something about that, I don't see how we're going to move forward. 

Well, can I put this back in your court, as they say in tennis? If you can provide me with a proposal or recommendation in your committee on which way we should do this, of course, I'll consider it, but I know of no practical way through the current mechanism, because on the one hand, we can't argue for a broadcast economy that benefits Wales because it's part of the greater UK broadcasting economy, and argue for deregulation on a Wales basis. I don't see how that is possible—or non-deregulation on a Wales basis. I don't see how that's possible. 

Well, all we're asking for is that Government acts to break up monopolies, because otherwise they will always increase, but also that whatever UK legislation we have reflects the reality of the different nations. 

I very much regret that this matter was not addressed properly earlier on, as this monopolistic, or duopolisitic, situation was developing. That was the problem, I think.

10:50

Diolch. Jest cyn i fi droi at radio cymunedol, a allaf ofyn am yr iaith Gymraeg ar orsafoedd masnachol? Rydym wedi clywed gan Nation Radio'r bore yma nad ydyn nhw'n credu bod yna ddyfodol cynaliadwy i orsaf fasnachol yn y Gymraeg, ac rydym ni wedi clywed hefyd gan Marc Webber fod Ofcom wedi llywyddu dros fethiant marchnad. A ydych chi’n cytuno bod Ofcom wedi bod yn eithaf gwan ar hyn? Achos rwy’n gwybod lle rydych yn sefyll ar ddadreoleiddio, ond a ydy Ofcom wedi bod, fel y dywedais i, yn wan?

Thank you. Just before I turn to community radio, can I just ask about the Welsh language on commercial radio stations? We've heard from Nation Radio this morning that they don't believe that there is a sustainable future for a commercial station in the medium of Welsh. We've also heard from Marc Webber that Ofcom has presided over a market failure. Do you agree that Ofcom has been relatively weak on this? Because I know where you stand on deregulation, but has Ofcom been, as I said, weak?

Wel, nid yw'n iawn i fi fynd yn ôl dros y gorffennol, ond roeddwn i wedi disgwyl y byddai’r rheoleiddiwr wedi bod yn gadarnach yn y cyfnod pan oedd y datblygiadau yma’n digwydd. Ond rydw i yn meddwl bod angen dilyn awgrym Marc Webber, lle roedd e’n dadlau wrthoch chi’n gynharach y bore yma y byddai gorsaf fasnachol Gymraeg, neu Gymreig, a Chymraeg, yn rhywbeth ymarferol. Mae honno’n ddadl ddiddorol iawn i mi.

Y cwestiwn diwylliannol y byddwn i am ei godi yw: onid oes modd, hyd yn oed, cael cydweithrediad rhwng y cwmnïau masnachol presennol i hyrwyddo cynnydd yn y cynnwys Cymreig a Chymraeg? Oherwydd rydw i’n meddwl bod yna ddadl dros wneud hynny, a byddai hynny’n gam wedyn tuag at asesu a fyddai gorsaf fasnachol yn weithredol. Ac nid jest gorsaf unigol; rydw i’n meddwl bod eisiau edrych—heb ailadrodd beth a ddywedais i o’r blaen—ar draws llwyfannau i weld ble mae cynnwys Cymreig a Chymraeg yn gallu treiddio, a ble nid yw’n treiddio, a pham.

Rydw i’n meddwl dylai bod hynny’n rhan o gyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth—nid o angenrheidrwydd, wrth gwrs, fy nghyfrifoldeb i, ond yn gyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth—oherwydd nid ydym ni'n mynd i symud ymlaen efo’r cynlluniau mawr yma ynglŷn â dwyieithrwydd yng Nghymru, a miliwn o siaradwyr ac ati, os nad ydym ni'n gallu sicrhau bod yna fwy o gynnwys Cymraeg a Chymreig ar ein cyfryngau ni.

Well, it's not for me to rehearse the past, but I had expected that the regulator would have been more robust during that period where these developments were taking place. But I do think that we need to take up the suggestion made by Marc Webber, where he argued earlier this morning that a Welsh language commercial radio station, or a Welsh commercial radio station, would be practicable. I think that's a very interesting argument.

The cultural question that I would raise is: wouldn't it be possible to have collaboration between the current commercial operators to promote an increase in Welsh and Welsh language output? Because I do think there is an argument for doing that, and that would be a step towards assessing whether a commercial station of the type you suggested would be a goer. And, without rehearsing what I said earlier, I do want to look across platforms to see where Welsh language content and Welsh content more generally can permeate, and where it can't permeate and why.

I think that should be part of the responsibility of Government—not necessarily my own responsibility, but a responsibility of Government—because we're not going to move ahead with these major projects in terms of bilingualism in Wales and a million Welsh speakers unless we can ensure that there is more Welsh and Welsh language content on our media.

A allaf i jest gofyn rhywbeth, Suzy?

May I just ask something, Suzy?

A fyddai angen inni gael y drafodaeth yma ynglŷn â radio masnachol yn gweithio gyda'i gilydd pe byddai Ofcom, efallai, wedi gwrthod rhai o'r trwyddedau a oedd wedi dod atyn nhw oedd yn gwneud y sefyllfa’n waeth o ran yr hyn yr oedd y radio neu'r cwmni’n cynnig? Rydw i’n credu bod y system wedi newid, wrth gwrs, ac mae Ofcom wedi dweud hynny wrthym ni, ond a fyddai’r sefyllfa’n wahanol nawr pe baen nhw wedi bod yn fwy proactive yn dweud, 'Wel, na, nid yw hwn yn ddigon da; mae angen ichi newid y drwydded'?

Would we need to have this discussion about commercial radio working together if Ofcom hadn't rejected some of the licences that came before them? Has that made the situation worse in terms of radio or the companies bidding for those licences? The system has changed, and Ofcom has said that to us, but wouldn't the situation be different now if they had been more proactive, saying, 'Well, no this isn't good enough; you have to change the licence'?

Fedraf i ddim ateb hynny achos, yn sicr, nid oeddwn i'n Weinidog yng nghyfnod Ofcom. Roedd Hywel o gwmpas; roedd e yna. Yr ateb ar ei ben gen i, o edrych yn ôl ar y sefyllfa, ac fe ddywedais i hynny’n gynharach, rydw i’n meddwl, yw fe ddylid bod wedi rhagweld y datblygiadau oedd yn amlwg yn y cyfnod yna. Hywel, ti ydy’r hanesydd darlledu.

I can't answer that because I certainly wasn't a Minister at that time; Hywel was around at that time. My direct response in looking back at the situation, and I think I made this point earlier, is that it should have been anticipated that those things would develop in this way. Hywel, you're the broadcasting historian.

Rŷm ni wedi bod yn hollol glir fel Llywodraeth ers blynyddoedd, o ran pan fo yna drwyddedau yn cael eu gosod neu adolygu, bod angen rhoi ystyriaeth i nifer o ffactorau lleol, gan gynnwys yr iaith.

Felly, rŷm ni wedi bod yn hollol glir. Os ewch chi yn ôl trwy ein hymatebion ni i Ofcom ac ati a siartr y BBC dros y blynyddoedd, rŷm ni wedi bod yn hollol glir bod e’n bwysig bod yr iaith—. Yn amlwg, mater i Ofcom yw e, ond rŷm ni wedi bod yn hollol glir bod angen i'r ffactorau ieithyddol gael eu hystyried pan fo trwyddedau’n cael eu gosod.

We've been entirely clear as a Government for years, when licences are reviewed, that we need to consider a number of local factors, including the language.

So, we've been entirely clear. If you go through our responses to Ofcom and the BBC charter over the years, we have been clear that it's important that the language—. Of course, it's a matter for Ofcom, but we have been clear that linguistic factors do need to be considered when licences are laid.

Na, mae'n fine, riliMaen nhw’n llai brwdfrydig na chi, mae’n debyg, i wrando ar y ddadl. 

No, it's fine, really. They're less enthusiastic than you are, it would appear, to listen to that argument.

Ond pan fydd ein cynrychiolydd ni wedi’i benodi ar Ofcom, mi fydd hi neu fo’n frwdfrydig iawn, neu fyddan nhw ddim yn cael y job.

But when our representative is appointed to Ofcom, he or she will be most enthusiastic or they won't be appointed.

Beth ydy’r amserlen ar gyfer hynny, gyda llaw?

What's the timetable for that, by the way?

O ran yr aelod? Yn amlwg, mae'r memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth wedi cael ei gytuno nawr. Mae’r broses yn mynd i ddechrau a bydd yr hysbyseb yn ymddangos yn fuan iawn. Felly, ie, yn fuan iawn.

In terms of the member? Clearly, the memorandum of understanding has been agreed now. The process is going to start and an advertisement will appear very soon. So, yes, very, soon.

10:55

Ie. Ac fe wnawn ni roi gwybod i chi, fel pwyllgor, pan fydd yr hysbyseb yn ymddangos.

Yes. And we'll let you know, as a committee, when the advertisement appears.

Ocê, diolch. Fe wnaf i droi nawr at radio cymunedol. A ydych chi’n meddwl bod yna rôl benodol i radio cymunedol o’i gymharu gyda gorsaf fasnachol, er enghraifft?

Okay, thank you. I'll turn now to community radio. Do you believe that there is a specific role for community radio as compared to a commercial station, for example?

Ydym, achos rydym ni’n meddwl bod radio cymunedol—. Beth sydd gennym ni, rhyw naw neu 10 ohonyn nhw o dan yr enw hwnnw yn benodol yng Nghymru? Ac un newydd ar y ffordd yn Aberystwyth—rydw i'n meddwl mai dyna'r un nesaf. Mae hynny’n amlwg yn beth i ddatblygu cyfranogaeth pobl yn y diwylliant darlledu. Mae’n gyfle i hyfforddi gwirfoddolwyr, yn enwedig pobl ifanc, o bosib, yn y gwahanol grefftau o ddarlledu, gan gynnwys newyddiadura ac yn y blaen. Ydym, rydym ni’n credu'n gryf ynddo fo. Rydym ni’n falch iawn bod y cyllid a roddwyd gan y Llywodraeth yn wreiddiol—ac fe wnaiff Hywel esbonio’n fanylach beth oedd diben y £100,000 a roddwyd i mewn yn flynyddol am gyfnod yn y fanna—wedi arwain at helpu i greu sefydlogrwydd yn y sector, hyd y gallwn ni weld. Wedyn, dyna pam rydw i’n meddwl ein bod ni wedi terfynu’r cyfraniad yna. Nid oeddwn i’n gyfrifol am hynny ar y pryd. Wyt ti eisiau dweud rhywbeth pellach am hynny?

Yes, because we think that community radio—. What do we have, nine or 10 stations that are described in that way in Wales? And a new one in the pipeline in Aberystwyth—I believe that's the next one. That, clearly, if we are to develop people's participation in broadcasting, is an opportunity to train volunteers, particularly young people, possibly, in the various broadcasting arts, including journalism and so on. Yes, we believe strongly in community radio. We're very pleased that the funding provided by Government originally—and Hywel will explain further what the purpose of the £100,000 provided annually over a period of time was—led to providing stability in the sector, as far as we could see. That's why, I think, we brought that contribution to an end—because it was stable. I wasn't involved in that at the time. Do you want to say anything further on that?

Mae'n iawn. Diolch am hynny. Rŷch chi'n sôn am greu sefydlogrwydd; beth yw’ch barn chi am y gronfa sydd wedi diflannu? Beth oedd y rheswm am hynny? Nid oedd hi wedi bod yn werth am arian?

That's fine. Thank you for that. You talk about creating stability, so what's your opinion about the fund that has been scrapped? Why was that scrapped? Had it not been value for money?

Na, dim o gwbl. Roedd y gronfa wedi bod yn llwyddiant ysgubol. Yr oedd yn gronfa benodol. Fel rŷch chi’n gwybod, mae gan Ofcom o hyd gronfa benodol ar lefel Brydeinig. Roedd hon yn gronfa ar gyfer Cymru yn benodol, felly roedd yn unigryw, a buodd yn hwb sylweddol i’r sector. Cronfa pum mlynedd yr oedd i fod, a chafodd hi ei hymestyn am flwyddyn er mwyn rhoi cyfle i'r gorsafoedd i baratoi ar ôl i’r gronfa ddod i ben. Felly, cronfa benodol oedd hi, am bum mlynedd. Ni ddaeth y gronfa i ben oherwydd ei bod wedi bod yn fethiant—i’r gwrthwyneb. Buodd yn llwyddiant ysgubol, ond, yn anffodus, roedd yn rhaid ystyried y gronfa gyda phethau eraill a oedd yn cael eu cyllido o fewn yr adran. Felly, dyna'r unig reswm y daeth i ben; nid oherwydd ei bod wedi bod yn fethiant, dim o gwbl. Buodd yn llwyddiant ysgubol a buodd yn hwb.

Hefyd, wrth gwrs, roedd yn unigryw a chreodd diddordeb y tu allan i Gymru, er enghraifft yn yr Alban. Buodd yna lot o lobïo i Lywodraeth yr Alban i gael cronfa debyg yn fanna. Felly, yn y maes yma, efallai, mae cyhuddiadau’n cael eu gwneud ein bod ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn dawel o ran darlledu, ond roedd hwn yn le lle y buom yn proactive a helpu’r sector. Felly—

Not at all. The fund was a huge success. It was a specific fund. As you know, Ofcom still has a specific fund at a Great Britain level. This was a fund specifically for Wales, so it was unique and it was a substantial boost to the sector. It was a five-year fund and then it was extended for a year in order to give the stations an opportunity to prepare for the period when that fund came to an end. So, it was specifically in place for five years. It didn't lapse because it had failed—quite the opposite. It was a huge success, but, unfortunately, we had to consider that fund along with the other things that were being budgeted for within the department. So, that's why it came to an end; not because it failed, not at all. It was a huge success.

Also, of course, it was unique and generated interest outwith Wales, for example, in Scotland. There was a great deal of lobbying of the Scottish Government to have a similar fund there. So, in this area, perhaps there are accusations made that we, as a Government, have been quiet in terms of broadcasting, but here we were proactive and assisted the sector. So—

Ond wedyn rŷch chi wedi cael gwared arni hi. Rhywbeth llwyddiannus, a rŷch chi wedi cael gwared ohoni. Byddech chi'n meddwl y byddech chi'n parhau gyda rhywbeth sydd yn llwyddiannus.

But then you got rid of it. It was something successful, and you got rid of it. One would think that you would continue with something that was successful.

Achos chostiodd hi ddim lot o gwbl, really.

Because it didn't cost much at all, did it?

Wel, ar y pryd, roedd yna benderfyniadau o ran blaenoriaethu cyllid. Felly, dyna’r rheswm.

Well, at the time, there were decisions that had to be made in terms of prioritising funding. So, that's the reason.

A gaf i ei gwneud hi'n hollol glir—? Ac rydw i wedi dweud hyn. Nid ydw i yn meddwl fy mod i'n atebol am benderfyniadau a ddigwyddodd cyn imi fod yn Weinidog. Mi wnaf ateb dros unrhyw beth arall, ond nid ydw i'n meddwl y dylech chi fy holi i, na Hywel, os nad yw’n awyddus iawn, am y rhesymau penodol ar y pryd. Ond mae beth ddigwyddodd wedi digwydd, yn anffodus, ynglŷn â safle diwylliant a darlledu’r pethau yma i gyd, o fewn y Llywodraeth, ac mae hynny bellach wedi newid. Ond dyna oedd y sefyllfa.

May I make it clear—? And I've said this. I don't think I'm accountable for decisions made before I became Minister. I will respond to anything else, but I don't think you should ask me, or Hywel, if he's not eager to respond, about the specific reasons at the time. But what happened happened, unfortunately, with regard to culture and broadcasting and so on, within the Government, and that has now changed. But that was the situation at the time.

Rwy'n credu, efallai, ei fod yn bwysig nodi—ac mae hyn yn ymddangos yn nhystiolaeth BroRadio, sydd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i chi—nad yw’r ffaith bod y gronfa wedi dod i ben wedi golygu bod gorsafoedd wedi mynd oddi ar yr awyr. Felly, nid yw’r ffaith bod cronfa’r Llywodraeth wedi dod i ben—. Yn amlwg, roedd hi’n hwb anferth i’r sector, ond nid yw wedi arwain at orsafoedd yn diflannu. Felly, rwy’n credu bod hynny’n bwysig i nodi. Yn amlwg, os bydd cais i sefydlu rhywbeth tebyg yn y dyfodol, byddai’n rhaid bod yna ddigon o dystiolaeth i alluogi’r Llywodraeth i benderfynu a fyddai cyllid ychwanegol yn rhoi rhyw impact ychwanegol i beth sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Felly, rwy’n credu bod hynny’n bwysig iawn inni ei ddweud. Cafodd adolygiad o'r gronfa radio ei wneud; ni ddaeth hi i ben oherwydd ei bod hi wedi methu mewn unrhyw ffordd—roedd hi'n llwyddiant ysgubol.

I think it's important to note—and this appears in the evidence that BroRadio provided to you—the fact that that fund had come to an end didn't mean that stations went off air. So, the fact that the Government fund came to an end—. Clearly, it provided a huge boost to the sector, but it hasn't led to stations disappearing. So, I think it's important to note that. Clearly, if there is a request to establish something similar in the future, there would have to be sufficient evidence to enable the Government to decide whether additional funding would have an additional impact on what's happening at the moment. So, I think that's very important for us to say. A review of that fund was made; it didn't come to an end because it had failed in any way—it was a huge success.

11:00

Wel, a allaf i jest ofyn hyn, achos mae'n debyg bydd yna heriau mawr i orsafoedd cymunedol nawr, oherwydd DAB a DAB lleol ac mae'n siŵr y bydd yna ryw fath o angen iddyn nhw chwilio am dipyn bach o arian i'w helpu nhw i gyrraedd hynny, ond a allaf i fod yn siŵr nad ydych chi yn dibynnu ar beth ddywedodd Nation Radio, rwy'n credu, y bore yma, sef ei fod yn well inni gael gwared ar y cyfyngu ar y ffyrdd mae gorsafoedd cymunedol yn gallu codi arian? Os byddai hynny'n digwydd, wel, maen nhw'n gallu cael ychwaneg o arian o'r gymuned—nid oes esgus i beidio â'u cefnogi nhw yn y cyfamser.

Well, can I just ask this then, because it's likely that there will be major challenges facing community radio stations because of DAB and local DAB, and there'll be some kind of need for them to seek some source of funding to assist them with those challenges, but can I just seek some reassurance that you're not depending on what Nation Radio said, I think, this morning, namely that we should get rid of the restrictions on the way that community stations can raise funds? Because if that were to happen, well, they could draw funds from the community—that shouldn't be in excuse not to support them in the meantime.

Mi edrychaf i ar y dystiolaeth. Mi glywais i'r rhan fwyaf o'r dystiolaeth cyn imi gyrraedd yma, ond rwy'n argymell eich bod chi'n gwneud argymhelliad o'r natur yna ar sail yr hyn a ddywedwyd wrthych chi, ac yna mi fedr y Gweinidog—a gobeithio mai fi fydd o a'ch bod chi'n mynd i adrodd yn weddol fuan—yna fe fydd modd inni ymateb.

Well, I will look at the evidence. I heard most of it before coming in this morning, but may I suggest that you should make a recommendation based on what you are told and then the Minister—and I hope it will be me, and that you will be reporting relatively soon—then it will be possible for us to respond?

Achos mae yna newid, wrth gwrs, fod gorsafoedd radio cymunedol yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf yn gallu denu peth arian masnachol eu hunain. Mae hynny wedi bod yn hwb iddyn nhw. Rwy'n credu ei fod lan at £15,000. Felly, mae hynny wedi bod yn hwb iddyn nhw hefyd. Felly, rydym ni'n ymwybodol o'r heriau.

There has been a change so that community radio stations can draw down some commercial funds. I think it's up to £15,000. That has been a boost for them as well. So, we are aware of the challenges.

A faint ohonyn nhw sydd wedi—? Sori, Suzy.

How many of them—? Sorry, Suzy. 

Faint ohonyn nhw sydd wedi ceisio am yr un San Steffan—yr arian sy'n cael ei redeg gan Ofcom? Jest inni ddeall: os nad oes un yng Nghymru a oes angen creu un newydd yma, os oes digon o gyfle iddyn nhw—?

How many of them have applied for the funding that is available from Westminster, run by Ofcom? If there isn't such a fund in Wales, do we need to provide a new one here, if there is enough opportunity for them—?

Bydd yn rhaid inni ddarparu—. Mater i Ofcom yw hwnnw, ond yn amlwg gallwn ni gael y nodyn yna ichi, achos rwy'n credu bod tua 200 o orsafoedd cymunedol ar draws Prydain. Yn amlwg, mae gorsafoedd Cymru yn gallu ymgeisio, ond yn amlwg mae'r pot yn lot llai ar gyfer—. Ie.

We'll have to provide—. That's a matter for Ofcom, but we can certainly get you a note on that, because I think there are 200 community stations across Britain. Clearly, the Welsh stations can bid for that, but the pot is far smaller.

Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn.

Okay, thank you very much.

Iawn, dim problem.

Fine, no problem.

Rwyf i wedi dod i ben.

I've finished my questions. 

Rwyt ti wedi dod i ben. Grêt, so symudwn ymlaen yn awr at Siân Gwenllian.

You've finished your questions. Okay, we'll move on now to Siân Gwenllian.

Diolch. Wel, rydw i'n gobeithio y gwnewch chi ystyried ailgychwyn y gronfa os oes digon o dystiolaeth. Ffordd arall o gynhyrchu incwm, wrth gwrs, i radio cymunedol, ydy drwy gael hysbysebion, ac, yn benodol, rydym ni'n sôn am beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn gallu ei wneud. Mi allai Llywodraeth Cymru sianelu hysbysebion ac annog y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru i gyfeirio'i hysbysebion llawer iawn mwy tuag at radio cymunedol. A ydych chi'n cytuno â hynny?

Thank you. Well, I very much hope that you will reconsider reinstating that fund if there is evidence to do so. Another way of generating income, of course, for community radio, is through advertisements, and, specifically, we're talking about what the Government can do. The Welsh Government could channel advertisements and encourage the public sector in Wales to direct their own advertisements far more towards community radio. Do you agree with that?

Nac ydw, mae gen i ofn, oherwydd nid ydw i'n meddwl y dylech chi noddi darlledu nac unrhyw gyfrwng arall trwy gyfrwng cyfathrebiadau Llywodraeth. Rydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n sefyllfa beryglus iawn ichi fod ynddi hi. Os ydych chi'n dweud bod eisiau nawdd cyhoeddus i unrhyw ffurf o ddiwylliant neu gyfrwng o unrhyw fath, rydw i'n meddwl y dylid dadlau'r ddadl honno ar sail anghenion y farchnad neu annigonolrwydd y farchnad i fedru delio â sefyllfa, ac nid disgwyl i'r Llywodraeth groes-sybsideiddio unrhyw weithgaredd drwy hysbysebu. Hynny yw, mae gallu Llywodraeth i gyfathrebu â'i chynulleidfa ac i recriwtio drwy hysbysebu—.

Buaswn i, a dweud y gwir, yn tynnu lot o'r hysbysebion yn ôl ac yn defnyddio gwefannau'r Llywodraeth i wneud hynny, fel gwnes i wneud pan oeddwn i'n gyfrifol am Gomisiwn y Cynulliad yn fan hyn, oherwydd rydw i'n meddwl y dylem ni symud i gyfnod lle mae hysbysebion am swyddi a negeseuon cyhoeddus yn gynyddol yn cael eu gosod allan yn y cyfryngau cyfathrebu sydd yn gallu creu ymateb cyflym. Felly, fedraf i ddim cytuno. Nid ydw i erioed wedi bod o blaid ceisio cynnal beth bynnag ydy o, p'un ai llenyddiaeth brint neu bapurau newydd neu orsafoedd darlledu, drwy gyfrwng hysbysebion cyhoeddus.

I'm afraid not, because I don't think that you should sponsor broadcasting or any other medium through the medium of Government communications. I think it's a very dangerous situation to be in. If you're saying that public sponsorship or funding is required for any form of culture or any medium, then I think you should make that case on the basis of the needs of the market or the inadequacy of the market in dealing with a situation, and not expect Government to cross-subsidise any activity through advertising. The ability of Government to communicate with its audience and to recruit through advertising—.

I would, actually, remove much of the advertising and use the Government website as a means of doing that, as I did when I was responsible for the Assembly Commission here, because I do think we should move to a period where job advertisements and public information messages are increasingly set out in the communication media that can generate a swift response. So, I couldn't agree with your view. I've never been in favour of trying to maintain whatever it is, print literature, newspapers or broadcasting stations, through the medium of public advertisements.

Rwy'n gallu deall y pwynt yna, ond, a bod yn realistig, mae hi'n ffordd eithaf hwylus a byddai'n gallu rhoi cefnogaeth i radio cymunedol. Ond beth am ymgyrchoedd—ymgyrchoedd fel rhoi organau? Rydw i'n credu bod yna ymgyrchoedd felly wedi bod, onid oes? Mae hynny'n wahanol, efallai, a ydy?

I understand that point, but, to be realistic, it is a relatively easy way to support community radio. But what about campaigns, then—campaigns such as organ donation? I think that similar campaigns have been mounted. Is that different?

Rydym ni yn ymwybodol, ac rwy'n gwybod bod GTFM wedi codi'r pwynt gyda chi o ran yr issue o ran yr hysbysebu a'r pwyntiau rydych chi wedi'u gwneud nawr. Rwy'n gwybod eu bod nhw wedi bod yn rhwystredig iawn gyda sut mae'r arian wedi cael ei ddosbarthu. Gallaf eich sicrhau chi bod swyddogion y Llywodraeth—hysbysebu—a'r bobl sy'n eu cynghori nhw o ran hysbysebu, mewn cysylltiad â GTFM a'r gorsafoedd eraill o ran hyn, ac yn amlwg maen nhw'n gorfod gwneud penderfyniadau ar sail ble mae'r ymgyrchoedd yma'n mynd i gyrraedd, faint sy'n gwrando ac ati. Felly, maen nhw'n ymwybodol o hynny. Yn amlwg, maen nhw hefyd yn eu hannog nhw i efallai ddod at ei gilydd er mwyn gwneud rhai ymgyrchoedd, ac efallai byddai hynny'n gyfle. Felly, maen nhw eisoes mewn cysylltiad â rhai o'r gorsafoedd cymunedol. Felly, nid wyf yn credu ei bod hi'n hollol wir i ddweud nad oes cyswllt o gwbl rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r gorsafoedd radio cymunedol o ran hysbysebu, achos mae e yn digwydd. 

We are aware and we know that GTFM have raised this point with you in terms of the issue around advertisements and the points that you've just made. I know that they have been very frustrated with the way that the funding has been distributed. I can assure you that Government officials who are responsible for advertising, and those advising them, are in contact with GTFM and the other radio stations in this regard, and clearly they have to make decisions on the basis of the reach of these campaigns, how many people are listening and so on and so forth. So, they're very aware of that, and they're also encouraging them to perhaps come together in order to work together on certain campaigns, and so there may be opportunities there. So, they're already in contact with some of these community radio stations. So, I don't think it's entirely true to say that there is no connection at all between Government and community radio stations in terms of advertising, because it does happen. 

11:05

Ocê, ond drwy ymgyrchoedd penodol, ac mi fedrith rywun feddwl am lawer o ymgyrchoedd—gordewdra a materion iechyd cyhoeddus—y gellid eu gwneud yn effeithiol drwy'r cyfrwng yma, ac wedyn yn rhoi rhywfaint o gefnogaeth i radio cymunedol. Pa mor ddefnyddiol fyddai cael gwybod faint yn union o bobl sydd yn gwrando ar radio cymunedol, er mwyn medru cefnogi'r syniad yna?

Okay, but through specific campaigns, and one can think of several campaigns—obesity and public health issues—that could be done effectively through this medium, whilst also giving some support to community radio. How useful would it be to know how many people listen to community radio, in order to support that concept?

Yn amlwg, nid yw radio cymunedol yn dod o dan y ffigurau RAJAR. Mae'r Llywodraeth, dros y blynyddoedd, wedi bod yn edrych ar, efallai, ffigurau faint sy'n gwrando ac ati. Felly, dros y blynyddoedd, gyda'r rhai sy'n eu cynghori nhw o ran hysbysebu, mae yna beth gwaith wedi cael ei wneud dros y blynyddoedd, ac efallai ei fod e'n rhywbeth y bydd angen iddyn nhw ailedrych arno. Ond, yn sicr, nid yw hynny'n rhywbeth sydd wedi cael ei wneud yn gyhoeddus, wrth gwrs, ond mae e'n rhywbeth maen nhw wedi bod yn ei wneud er mwyn edrych ar ble efallai dylai'r hysbysebion fod yn mynd. Felly, maen nhw wedi bod yn edrych ar hynny. 

Clearly, community radio isn't captured under the RAJAR figures. The Government, over the years, has been looking at listenership figures and so on. So, over the years, with those advising them in terms of advertising, some work has been carried out, and that may be something that they will need to return to. But, certainly, that hasn't been made public, but it is something that they have been doing in order to see where the advertising should be targeted. So, they have been looking at that area. 

Felly, rydych chi'n hyderus bod yna ddigon o dystiolaeth ynglŷn â'r ffigurau heb orfod ei wneud o drwy RAJAR.

So, you are confident that there is sufficient evidence with regard to the figures without having to do it through RAJAR.

Na, rwy'n credu y rheswm maen nhw wedi gwneud hynny yw, yn amlwg, achos bod hynny ddim yn digwydd drwy RAJAR. Felly, mewn byd delfrydol, byddai angen rhywbeth tebyg efallai i ddod i'r casgliadau er mwyn gwybod yn union. Ond mae yna beth gwaith wedi cael ei wneud, oes. 

No, I think the reason they've done that is because that isn't captured through RAJAR. So, in an ideal world, you would need something similar in order to know exactly what the figures are. But some work has certainly been done, yes. 

Ocê. Un o'r rhwystrau mawr, wrth gwrs, i radio cymunedol ydy'r costau seilwaith a'r costau trawsyrru. Ac, unwaith eto, oes yna rywbeth y gall y Llywodraeth ei wneud i gefnogi radio cymunedol yn y ffordd yna, drwy helpu efo rhai o'r costau, am gyfnod efallai?

Okay. One of the major barriers for community radio is the infrastructure costs and transmission costs. And, once again, is there anything that the Government can do to support community radio in that way, by assisting with some of these costs, for a period perhaps?

Wel, nid oes yna ddim byd yn rhwystro unrhyw grŵp cymunedol sydd yn gweithredu yn y trydydd sector, mewn unrhyw ffordd, rhag gwneud achos busnes i gael cefnogaeth oddi wrth y Llywodraeth. Ac mi fyddwn yn sicr, o'm rhan fy hun, ac rydw i'n sicr o ran Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yr economi, yn croesawu ceisiadau, achos beth rydym ni'n trio ei wneud rŵan, yn gynyddol, ydy teilwra cefnogaeth fusnes i'r ceisiadau sy'n dŵad, gobeithio sy'n dŵad, o fusnesion, yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n gweithredu system grantiau y mae'n broblemus yn aml iawn i wneud cais amdanyn nhw. Ac rydym yn ceisio cysoni, yn y maes arall rydw i'n gyfrifol amdano fo, ym maes twristiaeth, fel bod y Llywodraeth yn gallu bod yn bartner hyrwyddol drwy fuddsoddi, hyd yn oed, mewn datblygiadau sydd yn ddatblygiadau trydydd sector a datblygiadau masnachol. Ni fyddai cwestiwn na fyddem ni'n gallu ystyried hynny fel cyfraniad i'r economi leol, ac yn enwedig i weithgaredd gwirfoddol yn y trydydd sector. 

Well, there is no barrier to any community group who are operating in the third sector, in any way, from making a business case for support from Government. And I, certainly from my own part, and also from the point of view of the Cabinet Secretary for the economy, would welcome such applications or bids, because what we are now trying to do, increasingly, is to tailor our business support to the bids that will hopefully come from businesses, rather than operating a grant system that can be problematic in terms of making applications. And in another area which I'm responsible for, and that's tourism, we're trying to ensure that the Government can be a promotional partner through investment, even, in certain developments, which are third sector and commercial developments. So, there's no doubt that we can consider that as a contribution to the local economy, and to voluntary action in the third sector in those areas. 

Felly, rydych chi'n ei weld e fel mater economaidd, o ran y gefnogaeth. O'r pot pres yna y byddai o'n dod, ddim o'ch pot—

So, you see it as an economic issue, in terms of the support. It would come from that pot of money rather than anywhere else—

Rydym ni'n trio edrych ar draws Llywodraeth ar gyfuno potiau, a dweud y gwir, oherwydd bod rhywun yn gallu cwrdd ag amcanion—. Yn amlwg, mae amcanion adnewyddu cymunedau eto yn rhan o hyn, onid ydy? Ac, yn sicr, byddwn i'n fodlon edrych ar unrhyw beth. 

We're trying to look cross-Government at bringing together these pots of funding, so that one can meet objectives. Clearly, community renewal and community regeneration is part of this, isn't it? And, certainly, we would be willing to look at that. 

Nid ydym wedi cael ein lobïo gan y sector ynglŷn â hyn, ond yn amlwg, os byddem ni, byddai'n rhywbeth y byddem ni'n ei ystyried. 

It's not something that we've been lobbied on from the sector, but it is something that we would consider. 

Sori, Siân, ond beth am y sefyllfa gyda Radio Beca? Roedd y seilwaith a'r trawsyrru yn rhywbeth a oedd wedi stopio hynny rhag digwydd. So, rydych chi'n dweud eich bod chi eisiau i bobl roi ceisiadau mewn, ond wedyn, pan mae rhywbeth wedi digwydd, nid ydyn nhw wedi gallu llwyddo.

Sorry, Siân, but what about the situation with Radio Beca. I think it was transmission and infrastructure that stopped that from happening. So, you say that you want people to make applications or bids, but, then, when something has happened, they've been unsuccessful.

11:10

Medraf i ddim ateb hynny. Nid oeddwn i'n gyfrifol ar y pryd.

I can't answer that. I wasn't responsible for it at the time.

Mater i Ofcom yw hwnnw, ddim i'r Llywodraeth.

That's a matter for Ofcom, not the Government.

Na, ond os ydyn nhw eisiau cael cefnogaeth—yn amlwg, yn yr achos hwnnw, roedd cymaint o rwystrau iddyn nhw ddatblygu fel nad oedden nhw'n gallu, ac felly, a ydych yn gweld fod rôl, wedyn, gan Lywodraeth i'w helpu—dim nhw'n benodol, ond rhywun a fyddai eisiau gwneud beth maen nhw'n ei wneud—er mwyn gallu llwyddo?

No, but if they want support—obviously, in that case, there were so many barriers in terms of their development that they weren't able to, and, therefore, don't you see that there's a role for Government to help them—not them specifically, but a similar organisation that was trying to do what they were trying to do—to succeed?

Y peth cyntaf mae unrhyw grŵp yn gorfod ei gael yw cynllun busnes a chyngor busnes i weld a yw'r peth yn broject hyfyw, ac yna, os ydy o'n broject hyfyw, mae modd chwilio am gefnogaeth gyfochrog—naill ai codi cyllid yn gymunedol neu drwy ariannu drwy'r 'cwmwl', neu beth bynnag felly, neu mi fyddai modd hefyd ofyn am gefnogaeth, ond nid ydw i'n ymwybodol, yn yr achos yna, o'r hyn a ddigwyddodd, achos nid oeddwn i'n gyfrifol ar y pryd. A oes gen ti fwy o wybodaeth, Hywel?

The first thing that any group has to have is a business plan to see whether it's a viable project, and if it is a viable project, then one can seek support, either through raising revenue on a community level or through the 'cloud' and so on, or one could also ask for support, but I'm not aware, in this particular case, of what happened because I wasn't responsible for this at the time. Do you have any more information, Hywel?

O ran Radio Beca, buodd yna gyfarfodydd gyda'r Llywodraeth ond yng nghyd-destun y Gymraeg yn bennaf—yn amlwg o ran rôl Radio Beca o ran y Gymraeg. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol ein bod ni wedi cael unrhyw gais, er enghraifft, gan Radio Beca o ran seilwaith ac ati, o fy mhrofiad i beth bynnag, ond efallai y bydd Radio Beca'n gallu cadarnhau hynny.

In terms of Radio Beca, there were meetings with Government, but it was in the context of the Welsh language mainly—in terms of Radio Beca's role in relation to the Welsh language. I'm not aware that we received any bid, for example, from Radio Beca in terms of any infrastructure issues and so on, from my experience anyway, but Radio Beca may be able to confirm that.

Ocê, diolch. Sori, Siân.

Okay, thank you. Sorry, Siân.

Na, rydw i wedi gorffen, diolch.

No, I've finished, thank you.

Thank you, Chair. Firstly, I just want to touch back on the community radio fund. Obviously, we haven't got that any more in Wales, but the letter from the Minister for Digital and Creative Industries, Margot James, has mentioned that there is a fund available in England, run by Ofcom and given out by the DCMS. Is that readily available to the community radio industry? Do they know about it, or what is the Welsh Government doing to promote that fund, because we haven't got our specific one any more?

As far as I'm aware, all the stations are aware of it through—. Obviously, Ofcom Wales are in a position to advise all the relevant stations within Wales on that fund. So, as far as I'm aware, yes, they are all aware of it.

Thank you. I'd just like to move on, then, to access to DAB and to get your thoughts on what the current access to DAB is and how we reach our target in the future. Are we going to reach that target or what do we need to do to get there?

Yes, I think the development is quite vigorous in terms of access to DAB and I think we're looking for 97 per cent.

Yes, we've been consistent at 97 per cent. I know that the people who gave evidence to you this morning said that that is very unlikely to be reached, but we've been quite clear about digital switchover—that any changes at a UK level will not help the situation in Wales, because, obviously, we've got existing problems in relation to FM in parts of Wales and DAB as well. So, there are specific ones, especially in mid Wales. So, we've been quite clear: if a decision is made on switchover, there need to be mechanisms in place and the Welsh Government will need to be fully involved in those discussions when the switchover for television happens. Digital UK—the body responsible for digital across the UK—had a presence in Wales, so we would argue that when, and if, a direction is made in relation to radio switchover, a similar provision would need to take place in Wales. The people responsible—UK Digital Radio at the moment—would need to have a presence in Wales, which could then deal with specific issues for Wales, because it really helped when the switchover for television took place.

So, in terms of that, are we having those conversations now to put that in place, just in case—?

Yes, we are. Hywel and others have raised this issue with the UK Government, the BBC and Ofcom and with UK Digital Radio, and we've emphasised this in our responses to the BBC charter review and, more recently, to the Ofcom annual plan. So, we have this right at the head of our thinking, but it would be useful if you, as a committee, having taken evidence on this, could indeed strengthen our case, as it were.

I must say, as someone who spends as much of his life as possible in an area where reception, generally, of communication and radio is not very good, it's made a world of difference for my listening to music to have the quality that we have now in DAB, and I am very keen to see as many people in Wales as possible being able to benefit from that. That's just a personal plea, really.

11:15

You mentioned the BBC there, so I'll just ask you one question on that before I move on to my final question. Community radio: what support do they get from the BBC, and should we be pushing the BBC to offer more support or is that something out there?

I think some of the community stations already—and I think GTFM is one—have been using bulletins from the BBC. I think, from the evidence you received from BBC Wales, they are open to having discussions with the community sector. I think their door is open to have discussions. Obviously, it comes back to the issue of plurality, but I think it probably is better to have provision from BBC Wales, obviously in the Welsh language as well, rather than—because some of the commercial stations use Sky, for example—having the news from London. So, I think, from the BBC's perspective, their door is open for discussions.

Just on that, the commercial radio stations here—one of them said that, given that the BBC is a public service broadcaster, they should, too, be able to get some use of that news provision. What would you say to that?

I think it's obviously a matter for the BBC to discuss with specific commercial stations. Obviously, we wouldn't have a role there, but I think those discussions should take place.

Just finally, I'd like to move on to Welsh language services. How can they be improved to offer more or better Welsh language services than are currently offered on community radio?

Well, community radio in bilingual communities does usually reflect, in my experience anyway, the language mix. What I'm equally interested in is whether we can—following the evidence that you were gathering earlier this morning—look at the possibility of a more commercial activity both in the Welsh language and with Welsh music and other content. I think that could be a very exciting development. Actually, going back—not so much community radio now, but the commercial stations—if you count the hours and the content in the Welsh language, commercial stations come up very close to Radio Cymru and the BBC in terms of the hours produced. That's because of Capital Cymru mainly in the north, but they are continuing with what I like to think is the tradition that we helped to develop with Champion FM in the great days of really local radio in north Wales. I take your point, but if you can, as a result of the evidence you've had, come up with one or two recommendations relating specifically to bilingual provision that is Welsh content and Welsh language, then that would be very welcome.

Coming back to the Welsh Government's fund, there were specific targets there in relation to the Welsh language—for example, to work with the local mentrau iaith—and those have continued. In fact, we instigated those targets in the community radio fund, and those partnerships have continued. So, I think that again is a sign of Welsh Government funds leading to developments, for example, in the Welsh language.

There's a very short time to cover a very large subject now. The BBC is, of course, massively dominant in the radio market in Wales. Can I tempt you to provide an assessment of how well they are performing in terms of providing for the needs of Wales culturally and in news terms? And I draw your attention to one thing that was said in the BBC Audience Council Wales's report in relation to 2016, namely that there have been

'extensive schedule changes on Radio Wales in recent years as more speech content has been included in daytime. There is an audience perception that the station was no longer reflecting their communities and connecting with them in the way it once did'.

What could the BBC do to improve its performance in this respect? Without being critical of them, could you provide some constructive advice?

11:20

No, I'm sorry. For two reasons: first of all, I have worked for them in the past, in all sorts of different capacities, but, as Minister, with no responsibility for the BBC—the BBC manages itself, and its regulation is managed through the people that we nominate to regulate it, and I leave it to them. I’m sorry, I can’t go down that route.

Well, we've reached a roadblock, I think. [Laughter.]

Ond rydych chi'n apwyntio aelod BBC.

But you appoint a BBC member.

Felly, mae gennych ddiddordeb—

So, you're interested in—

Wrth gwrs, ac yr ydw i'n siarad yn gyson gyda'r bobl yr ydym ni wedi'u penodi sydd yn rheoleiddio ar ein rhan ni, oherwydd mae'n bwysig—ac nid jest y BBC, ond S4C wrth gwrs, hefyd, ac Ofcom hefyd. Ond nid ydw i'n meddwl mai fy lle i, fel Gweinidog, yw esgus fy mod i'n bennaeth rhaglenni'r BBC, yng Nghaerdydd nag yn un man arall. Rydw i'n gwybod y byddai gan Rhys Evans air neu ddau i'w dweud wrthyf—heb sôn am Rhodri Talfan—petasen nhw'n meddwl fy mod yn eistedd fan hyn ac yn dechrau pontifficeiddio ar beth y dylai'r BBC ei wneud. Mae'n ddrwg gen i.

Well, yes, and I speak regularly to those appointees who regulate on our behalf, because it is important—and not only the BBC, but S4C and Ofcom too. But I don’t think it’s my role, as Minister, to pretend to be head of programming for the BBC, in Cardiff or anywhere else. I know that Rhys Evans would have a few choice words for me—never mind Rhodri Talfan—if they thought I was sitting here and starting to pontificate on what the BBC should be doing. I'm sorry.

Well, I think it would be unprofitable to pursue that further.

I’ve got this obsession that I’m arm’s length in everything.

Yes. No, I fully understand where you're coming from. I’m sure, if the roles were reversed, I would be giving the same kind of answer—indeed, I have done on previous occasions, in previous incarnations. [Laughter.]

One of the things that we recommended previously, which you’ll be aware of, is canvassing the possibility of a news opt-out from Radio 1 and Radio 2. The BBC—you'll have heard me raise this point earlier on today—provided a technical objection to that, in that the FM transmitter transmits to the west of England as well as to Wales, but the evidence that we had from Marc Webber this morning was that there are now technical solutions that might help to get around that. So, whether there’s anything you can do to promote that as an idea—.

Yes, because of the interest that we have expressed historically in evidence at various bodies, before I was here in this role, about the importance of Welsh news and news on channels or radio channels that Welsh people actually listen to, promoting that, I think, is very important. I’m a great fan of Radio 5 Live. It keeps me alive and awake—or half asleep at night as well. I do think that what the BBC does produce is a variety of production centres and journalistic centres. And, of course, the other great activity that the BBC engages in in Wales is just over the road, in BBC Hoddinott Hall, which has become a major production centre for Radio 3, to which I also listen, if Radio 5 Live doesn’t help—doesn't make me sleep. The opportunity to have news bulletins on Radio 1, Radio 2 and perhaps more Welsh news on Radio 5 Live are things that depend not just on the technical solutions, but also on the editorial approach of the BBC. I do think that there is a continuing discussion—or I know there is a continuing healthy discussion—about nations and regions inside that organisation, when you compare what the BBC is like today to what it was like in our younger days, when it was not 'nation shall speak truth unto nation', but 'one nation shall tell you what’s going on'. So, that’s all changed.

Yes, and I recall very well indeed. Have we run out of time?

You can have another question. It’s fine. I always cut you short, so I feel like—.

Yes. Well, I’m not sure that I’ve got any other questions to ask on this occasion. [Laughter.]

I didn’t want to be accused of bias, just because of your views on the royal family.

No, I joke. I jest.

Ocê. Os nad oes cwestiynau eraill gan Aelodau, byddwn ni’n dod â’r sesiwn yma i ben. Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich cyfraniad yma heddiw. Os oes yna fwy o wybodaeth y gallwch chi ei rhoi am yr hyn yr ydych chi wedi’i wneud o ran prosiect radio cymunedol, byddai hynny yn ein helpu ni o ran gallu cynnig unrhyw fath o—

Okay. If there are no further questions from Members, we'll draw this session to a close. Thank you very much for your contribution here today. If there's any further information that you can give about what you've done with regard to the community radio project, that would assist us in terms of being able to offer some sort of—

11:25

Rwy’n credu'r prif beth yw, cafwyd adolygiad—nid ydw i'n gwybod os ydych chi wedi gweld hwnnw. Mae e ar wefan y Llywodraeth. Gallwn ni anfon hwnnw atoch chi. Cafodd adolygiad ei wneud, felly gallwn anfon hwnnw atoch chi.

The main thing is, there was a review—I'm not sure if you've seen it. It's on the Government's website. We can send that link to you. A review was conducted, so we can send that to you.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich cyfraniad.

Great. Thank you very much for your contribution.

Rydym ni'n edrych ymlaen at yr adroddiad.

We look forward to the report.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Byddwn ni’n cael seibiant o bum munud nawr. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. We'll take a five-minute break now. Thank you very much.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:25 ac 11:34.

The meeting adjourned between 11:25 and 11:34.

11:30
4. Radio yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 7
4. Radio in Wales: Evidence Session 7

Diolch, a chroeso i eitem 4, sef: radio yng Nghymru, sesiwn dystiolaeth 7. Rydw i'n croesawu Euros Lewis, ysgrifennydd Cymdeithas Gydweithredol Radio Beca, a hefyd Lowri Jones, arweinydd y tîm cymell a hwyluso, Radio Beca. Nid ydw i'n siŵr os ydych chi wedi gweld tystiolaeth sesiynau eraill, ond bydd gennym ni themâu gwahanol yn cael eu harwain gan Aelodau Cynulliad gwahanol. Ond i gychwyn, hoffwn i ofyn i chi roi ychydig bach o gefndir am yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd gyda chi, efallai yr heriau a sialensau, fel ein bod ni'n gallu dysgu o hynny, ac fel ein bod ni'n gallu hwyluso'r broses i chi a phobl tebyg yn y dyfodol.

Thank you, and welcome to item 4: radio in Wales, evidence session 7. We welcome Euros Lewis, secretary of the Radio Beca Co-operative Society, and also Lowri Jones, motivation and facilitation team leader, also from Radio Beca. I don't know whether you've seen the other evidence sessions, but we will have different themes being led by different Assembly Members. But to start, I'd just like to ask you to give a little bit of background about what's happened with you, perhaps the challenges, so that we can learn a little bit about that and facilitate the process for you and similar people in future. 

11:35

Diolch yn fawr am y gwahoddiad i gael bod yma. Rŷm ni'n ddiolchgar iawn bob amser i ledu'r weledigaeth arbennig yma, ac mae'n weledigaeth sydd wedi esblygu, achos mae wedi newid yn sylfaenol dros y cyfnod o weithredu. Ac mi oedd, yn y cyfnod cyntaf yna, sialensau mawr, ac mae'r rheini yn werthfawr i'w nodi, rwy'n credu.

Y sialens gyntaf yn y drafodaeth gydag Ofcom oedd y diffiniad o radio gymunedol, ac mi oedd hynny yn ddiffiniad a oedd yn amlwg yn ddiffiniad a fyddai'n gweithredu o fewn ardaloedd poblog iawn—dinasoedd, ardaloedd dinesig—oherwydd mi oedden nhw'n edrych am ddarlledu dros ddim mwy na rhywbeth fel 10 km neu 15 km, rwy'n credu. Ond pe baem ni'n gwneud hynny yng ngorllewin Cymru, wrth gwrs, byddai gennym ryw 100 o ddefaid, cwpwl o dda ac ambell i ffarmwr. Felly, roedd e'n amhenodol.

Roedd e'n amherthnasol, y diffiniad yna, a'r ddadl gyntaf oedd gallu datblygu cais a fyddai yn ein galluogi ni i ddarlledu i critical mass o safbwynt y Gymraeg, ac mi roedd hynny ar gefn profiad Radio Ceredigion, a oedd, i bob pwrpas, yn radio gymunedol, er mai radio fasnachol oedd hi yn dechnegol, ac a oedd yn gallu masnachu'n broffidiol. Roedd yna broblemau dyledion hanesyddol—dim byd i'w wneud gyda masnachu, a dweud y gwir—ond mi oedd yn frwydr i gynnal jest uwchben y llinell yna oherwydd bod y rhan fwyaf o'r darlledu yn digwydd yn Gymraeg. Felly, mi oedd hynny yn dod â chynulleidfa fawr, ond nid oedd hi cweit yn ddigon.

Felly, y syniad oedd i fynd â fe mas ar draws tair sir y gorllewin—yr hen Ddyfed a'r cyffiniau—ac roedd hynny yn rhoi critical mass o ryw 150,000 fel man cychwyn, ond nid oedd, wrth gwrs, yn cael ei gyfyngu i siaradwyr Cymraeg, achos roeddem yn edrych i ddod â newydd-ddyfodiaid neu bobl gynhenid di-Gymraeg—i ddod â nhw i gyd mewn at y diwylliant. Y diwylliant oedd y nod yn fwy na'r iaith, a dweud y gwir. Felly, mi oedd hwnnw yn un rhwystr, yn rhwystr y gwnaethom ei ennill; fe wnaethom ni ddod dros y rhwystr yna, ac roeddem yn gweld hynny yn arwydd calonogol dros ben o safbwynt fod Ofcom yn cydnabod bod yr amgylchiadau darlledu yng nghyd-destun cymdeithas a chymdogaeth yn wahanol yng Nghymru, pwynt pwysig iawn. 

Yr ail, a oedd yn mynd gyda hwnnw wedyn: o fynd am y critical mass yma, roedd eisiau trosglwyddydd Carmel yn Cross Hands yn sir Gâr arnom ni. Roedd eisiau trosglwyddydd Blaenplwyf yng Ngheredigion a throsglwyddydd Preseli yn sir Benfro, ac roedd hynny yn creu problem fawr o ran arian, oherwydd er ein bod ni'n edrych i ddatblygu'r gweithgaredd yn weithgaredd ar lefel menter gymdeithasol, mi roeddem ni'n gorfod ymdrin â hynny gyda'r cwmni pe baem ni yn ddarlledydd prif ffrwd ac yn gorfod talu going rates. Mi oedd hynny'n golygu y byddai yna £0.25 miliwn o gyfalaf dim ond i allu darlledu ar y diwrnod cyntaf, heb sôn am y cytundeb lefel gwasanaeth ac wedyn yr on costs a fyddai'n mynd gyda'r staff fechan i gynnal y broses.

Felly, roedd hwnnw yn sialens fawr, ac mi roedd e'n sialens y gwnaethom ni fethu â chyrraedd, ac mae hynny'n berthnasol i'r trydydd rhwystr wedyn, a dyma rywbeth sydd wedi newid—.

Thank you very much for the invitation to be here. We're always delighted to share this particular vision, and it's a vision that has evolved because it has fundamentally changed over the period of operation. And in that initial period, there were major challenges, and it's worth noting those, I believe. 

The first challenge was in the discussion with Ofcom, and that was the definition of community radio. That was a definition that would clearly operate in highly-populated areas—in urban areas, mainly—because they were looking at broadcasting within a range of no more than 10 km or 15 km, but if we were to do that in west Wales, we would have 100 sheep, a couple of cows and a few farmers that we were broadcasting to.

So, it wasn't relevant to our circumstances, and the first argument we had was to develop a bid that would enable us to broadcast to a critical mass in terms of the Welsh language, and that was on the back of the experience of Radio Ceredigion, which was, to all intents and purposes, a community radio station, although technically it was a commercial radio station, and was trading profitably. There were historic debt problems—nothing to do with trading, if truth be told—but it was a battle to maintain themselves just above that line, because most of the broadcasting happened in Welsh. So, that drew a large audience, but it wasn't quite large enough. 

So, the idea was to take it across the three western counties—the old Dyfed and nearby areas—and that would give you a critical mass of around 150,000 as a starting point, but, of course, it wasn't limited to Welsh speakers, because we were looking to bring people who were new to the area, or who were residents but non-Welsh speaking, to bring those into the culture as well. That was the main aim, more than the language, if truth to be told. So, that was one barrier. It was a barrier that we overcame. We saw that as a very encouraging sign in terms of the fact that Ofcom did recognise that the broadcasting circumstances from a neighbourhood and societal perspective were different in Wales, and that's a very important point. 

The other thing that went hand in hand with that, in terms of the critical mass, was that we needed the Carmel transmitter in Cross Hands in Carmarthenshire. We needed the Blaenplwyf transmitter in Ceredigion and the Preseli transmitter in Pembrokeshire, and that created a major problem in terms of funds, because although we were looking to develop this activity as a social enterprise, we had to deal with that as though we were a mainstream broadcaster and had to pay the going rates. That would mean that there would have been £0.25 million in capital just to be able to broadcast on that first day, never mind the service level agreement and the on costs that would relate to the small staff required to maintain it all.   

So, that was a major challenge, and it was a challenge that we failed to overcome, and that is relevant to the third barrier, and this is something that has changed—. 

Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn i chi, cyn i chi fynd ymlaen at y trydydd rhwystr—. Roeddwn i jest wedi gofyn i'r Gweinidog os oedd e wedi cael unrhyw fewnbwn i'r sefyllfa yma. Roedd e'n dweud nad oedd cais i helpu gennych chi wedi mynd at y Llywodraeth o ran y seilwaith neu ariannu er mwyn gallu fforddio hynny. Pam nad oedd hynny wedi digwydd, ar eich rhan chi? 

Before you go on to the third barrier, I've just asked the Minister whether he had had any input into this situation. He said that there was no bid to assist from yourselves to the Government in terms of the infrastructure or the funds to be able to afford that. Why hadn't that happened on your part?    

11:40

Mae'n berthnasol i'r pwynt nesaf, a dweud y gwir.

It is relevant to the next point that I was going to make.

Na, mae'n pwyntio lan y pwynt nesaf, felly rwy'n ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn. Oherwydd calon y weledigaeth yw mai menter ym mherchnogaeth, ym mhob ystyr, y gymdeithas yw Radio Beca. I'r perwyl hwnnw, roeddem ni eisiau osgoi y broses yna sydd â pherygl i'n gwneud ni'n ddibynnol, a thrwy hynny, wrth gwrs, mae yna beryglon o safbwynt, eto, methu â chyrraedd y nod o blwraliaeth. Rhan o beth roeddem ni'n edrych i'w wneud oedd taclo'r broblem fawr yna sydd gyda ni o ddiffyg plwraliaeth wrth gael llais annibynnol a gwreiddio'r llais yna yn y cymdogaethau eu hunain. Felly, mi oedd symud tuag at godi cyfalaf drwy gyfranddaliadau menter gymdeithasol—mi oeddem ni'n gynnar iawn yn y broses yna. Erbyn hyn, yng ngorllewin Cymru, mae hynny'n dechrau adeiladau momentwm. Mae mwy a mwy o fentrau cymdeithasol, mwy a mwy o gymdogaethau wedi gafael yn y cysyniad yma o berchnogi, ym mhob ystyr, adnoddau o fewn y gymdeithas, ac o symud a gallu datblygu'r adnoddau yna eu hunain. Ond, yn y cyfnod pan roeddem ni'n gwneud hyn, roedd e'n gynnar. 

Hefyd, beth roeddem ni'n sylweddoli, er bod gyda ni fodel canol tref Aberteifi a oedd wedi digwydd—menter gymdeithasol wedi prynu gofod yng nghanol y dre a'i droi yn ased a oedd yn datblygu incwm i'r dref—roedd hynny'n fodel gyda ni, ond mae rhywbeth sydd yn weladwy ac sydd ag apêl uniongyrchol i ardal darged uniongyrchol yn wahanol iawn i'r hyn roeddem ni'n trio ei wneud, sef gosod cysyniad gwahanol o rywbeth cymharol nebulous mewn gwirionedd, rhywbeth sydd yn rhithiol, sy'n digwydd lan fanna, o'n cwmpas ni, ynddon ni. Mi oedd cael hynny a rhannu'r weledigaeth yna yn eang i'r pwynt lle roedd pobl yn gallu buddsoddi hynny yn amlwg yn broses a oedd angen mwy—. A dyma broblem arall: dwy flynedd oedd gyda ni i wneud y gwaith yma. Byddwn i'n dweud bod angen dwy flynedd i hau y syniad, i alluogi cymdogaethau ar draws—. Rwy'n credu, yn dechnegol, i fynd at y gair 'cymunedau', y pethau yna sy'n cael eu gosod ar fapiau, mae yna dros 200 o gymunedau yn y diriogaeth roeddem ni'n edrych arno. Beth oedd angen oedd plannu a datblygu'r syniad ym mhob un o'r cymdogaethau yna.

Mi fyddai cyrraedd y nod o godi'r cyfalaf drwy gyfranddaliadau wedi bod yn bosib, ond rhan o'r broblem, a phroblem wnaethom ni greu ein hunain, oedd ein bod ni wedi meddwl sut mae mynd at y cymdogaethau yna ac wedi cymryd y papurau bro fel patrwm i wneud hynny ac, i ddweud y gwir, i ychwanegu neu i weithio gyda'r diffiniadau mewnol yna, sydd yn dweud, 'Dyma'n cymdogaeth ni, dyma'n ardal ni', a gweithio gydag arweinwyr y papurau bro. Y camgymeriad oedd peidio â sylweddoli bod y papurau bro yna yn y cyflwr meddyliol roedden nhw, ac y maen nhw. Dim pob un; mi oedd yna rhai mewn cyflwr go ddeinamig ac yn gallu gafael yn yr uchelgais wrth y weledigaeth yma. Ond, i'r rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw, maen nhw mewn lle o ddibyniaeth. Maen nhw mewn meddylfryd o ddibyniaeth. Maen nhw mewn meddylfryd y dioddefwr sydd eisiau help. Mi oedd yr ymateb a'r ffaith ein bod ni'n dod atyn nhw ac yn trio codi a rhoi rhywbeth radical iddyn nhw—roedden nhw'n ei chael hi'n anodd iawn, iawn i ymateb yn bositif i hynny.

No, it highlights that next point, so I'm grateful for the question. Because at the heart of our vision was that this should be community owned, in all senses. That's what Radio Beca stood for. To that end, we wanted to avoid that process that is at risk of making us dependent, and in that there are some risks in failing to achieve this aim of plurality that we were seeking. What we were trying to do was to tackle this major problem that we have in having an independent voice that is rooted in the neighbourhoods and communities themselves. Therefore, a move towards raising capital through shares and social enterprise—we were at a very early stage in that process. By now in west Wales, that is starting to build momentum. There are more and more social enterprises and more and more communities that have grasped this concept of taking ownership of community resources, in all senses, and in developing those resources themselves. But, at the time that we were involved with this, it was at an early stage.

What we also realised was that, although we had the Cardigan town centre model—where space had been purchased in the town centre and had been turned into an asset that would generate income for the town—that was a model that we had, but something that is visible and has a direct appeal to a particular target area is very different to what we were trying to deliver, which was to establish a new concept of something that was relatively nebulous, something that is virtual, it happens up there, around us, and inside us. Sharing that vision broadly, to the point where people could invest in it, was clearly a process that needed more—. And this is another problem: we had just two years to carry out this work. I would say that you need two years just to sow the seeds of the concept in order to enable communities—. I think technically, if we think of communities as they are set out on maps, there are over 200 communities in the territory that we were seeking to cover. What was needed to do was to develop that idea in each and every one of those communities. 

Actually achieving that capital target through shareholdings would have been possible, but part of the problem, and a problem that we created ourselves in a way, was that we had considered how we approach those communities and had taken the papurau bro as a model for that, to work with those internal definitions that say 'This is our neighbourhood, this is our community', and to work with the leaders of the papurau bro. The mistake was not to realise that those papurau bro were in the mindset that they were, and are. Not every one. Some were dynamic and were able to grasp the ambition and the vision that we were putting forward. But, for most of them, they are in a position of reliance. They are in the mindset of dependency. They are in a state of victimhood, seeking assistance. The fact that we were approaching them and trying to give them something radical, they found it very difficult to respond positively to that.

Rwyf jest yn trio deall—mae dibyniaeth yn wahanol i gefnogaeth gychwynnol, er enghraifft. Felly, pam nad oeddech chi'n meddwl y byddai'n syniad i ofyn i'r Llywodraeth, 'A allwn ni gael help cychwynnol neu help gyda chostau craidd er mwyn ein bod ni'n gallu parhau ar ein pennau'n hunain?' Onid oedd hynny'n drafodaeth roeddech chi wedi ei chael?

I'm trying to understand—because reliance is very different to initial support. So, why didn't you think it would be an idea to ask the Government, 'Can we have initial support with core costs so that we can continue ourselves?' Wasn't that a discussion that you had?

11:45

Mi oedd yna help cychwynnol o'r gronfa a oedd yn bodoli ar gyfer help i godi'r proffil ac i fynd â'r drafodaeth mas. A beth wnaethom ni oedd—. Arian cymharol fach o £10,000 oedd e, ond roedd e'n arian a wnaeth wahaniaeth mawr. Roedd yn help i ni, i ddweud y gwir, i adeiladu'r seilwaith. Ond, roedd y broses o fynd ymhellach—. Fe wnaethom ni edrych i mewn i'r posibilrwydd o gyfaddawdu a datblygu ac fe wnaethom ni'r un peth gydag awdurdodau lleol hefyd, yn enwedig o fewn awdurdodau lleol o safbwynt eu perthynas ag arian Ewropeaidd, ac fe fwriom ni broblem yn fanna, sydd, rydw i'n hapus i ddweud, ddim yn broblem bellach yng ngorllewin Cymru. Ond roeddem ni'n gorfod trafod gyda phob un awdurdod ar wahân, ar delerau ychydig yn wahanol, ac yn enwedig o ran arian Ewrop. Er bod pob un o'r awdurdodau a phob un o'r pwyllgorau oedd yn bugeilio arian Ewrop eisiau cydweithio, nid oedd e ddim yn gallu digwydd—roedd y broblem seilos yma gyda ni. Erbyn hyn, wrth gwrs, rydym ni mewn trafodaeth gydag arian LEADER ar y foment, ym mhob un o'r tair sir, ac rydw i'n hapus i ddweud fod y broses o gydweithio—bellach mae'r rhwystrau yna wedi'u hysgubo o'r ffordd.

There was initial assistance from the fund that existed at that time in order to raise the profile and to take the debate out there. What we did was—. It was a relatively small sum, £10,000, but it was funding that made a very real difference and did assist us to build the foundations. But, the process of going further than that—. We did look into the possibility of compromising on our vision. We did the same with local authorities too, particularly within local authorities in terms of their dealings with European funding, and we hit a problem there, which, I'm happy to say, is no longer a problem in west Wales. But we had to discuss with each and every local authority separately, on terms that were slightly different in each case, and particularly in terms of European funding. Although each of the local authorities and each of the committees that were responsible for European funding wanted to collaborate, it couldn't happen at that time—there was this silo problem that we faced. By now, of course, we are in discussions on LEADER funding in each of the three counties, and I'm pleased to say that that process of collaboration is now working and those barriers have been removed.

Diolch am hynny. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen. Mae gan Suzy Davies gwestiwn.

Thank you for that. We will move on now to Suzy Davies.

Diolch yn fawr. A alla i jest ofyn, i fod yn glir—yn y bôn, beth sydd wedi bod yn broblem drwy fynd ar-lein yn lle dros transmitters traddodiadol? Achos rydw i jest wedi edrych ar eich gwefan fan hyn nawr. Mae'n bosibl i fi yn fan hyn, yng Nghaerdydd, edrych a gwylio ar beth sy'n digwydd gyda Radio Beca. A gyda mwy a mwy o bobl yn iwsio eu ffonau ac aux cables yn y car—mae'n bosibl i mi fynd i'r radio o fan hyn. A ydy hyn wedi bod yn unexpected success?

Thank you very much. Can I just ask, just to be clear—at heart, what's been the problem in going online rather than via traditional transmitters? Because I've just been on the website here. It's possible for me, in Cardiff, to look and watch and listen to what's happening with Radio Beca. More and more people are using their phones and aux cables in their cars—you can access radio from here. Has that been an unexpected success?

Mae'n sicr, erbyn hyn, yn rhywbeth lot mwy cyffredin. Pan roeddem ni'n moyn gwneud ein darllediad cyntaf, rhyw bedair blynedd yn ôl, roedd e'n eithaf anghyffredin, efallai, yn y gorllewin yn enwedig. Roedd pobl yn disgwyl cael eu darllediadau radio drwy'r trosglwyddyddion traddodiadol. Ac roedd rhywfaint o rwystrau y gwnaethom ni ddod atyn nhw o ran hygyrchedd a gwneud yn siŵr bod pawb a oedd eisiau gwrando yn gallu gwneud hynny, neu'n gwybod sut. Nid yw pedair blynedd yn ôl ddim yn swnio'n rhy bell yn ôl, ond roedd y meddylfryd yn eithaf gwahanol ac roedd arferion pobl yn eithaf gwahanol.

Felly, mae hynny'n rhywbeth rydym ni wedi bod yn gweithio arno yn ystod y cyfnod yna, lle rydym ni wedi bod yn cymell a dangos i bobl pa mor rhwydd yw e a pha mor rhad yw e, cyhyd â bod gyda chi fand eang. Efallai bod hynny'n fater ar wahân, efallai nad yw e. Gyda'r band-eang yna, yn eich cartref chi neu ble bynnag, neu 4G neu beth bynnag, mae e i gyd yn bosibl. Felly mae'r broses yna wedi bod yn digwydd yn ystod—. Ie, mewn ffordd, rydych chi'n iawn—rhyw fath o lwc o anlwc yw peidio â gallu cael yr arian i gael y trosglwyddyddion, achos beth rydym ni wedi'i ddatblygu ers hynny yw darlledu ar-lein, yn bennaf, ac mae hynny wedi tyfu ac mae wedi dod â phobl gyda fe o ran y symudiad digidol yna hefyd, rydw i'n credu, yn ystod yr amser rydym ni wedi bod yn ei wneud.

Ac rydym ni wedi datblygu hefyd, achos pa mor anodd oedd yr amgylchedd yna ar y dechrau, efallai, o ran cael pobl i wrando neu ddilyn, neu beth bynnag. Rydym ni wedi bod yn datblygu i ddarlledu mwy ar wahanol gyfryngau a defnyddio Facebook, Twitter, Periscope ac ati, yn ogystal â chyfryngau sydd ddim yn ddigidol, er mwyn annog pobl i ddarlledu beth sy'n bwysig iddyn nhw o'u cymdogaethau. Yn enwedig gyda phobl ifanc—gyntaf rydych chi'n dweud wrthyn nhw eu bod nhw’n gallu darlledu drwy Facebook, maen nhw'n deall hynny. So, pan rydych chi'n dweud wrthyn nhw eu bod nhw'n gallu darlledu drwy unrhyw gyfryngau, drwy stiwdio pop-up, beth bynnag yw e, drwy sefyll ar ben mynydd a gweiddi, beth bynnag yw e, mae'r holl gyfryngau yma ar gael iddyn nhw ac mae'r sifft feddyliol yna wedi digwydd, rydw i'n credu, ymysg pob oedran yn y pen draw.

Well, certainly, it is far more common now. When we wanted to make our first broadcast, some four years ago, it was quite unusual, particularly in west Wales. People expected to receive radio through the traditional transmitters. And some of the barriers that we came across were in terms of accessibility and ensuring that everyone who wanted to listen were able to do that, or knew how to listen. Four years ago doesn't sound too long ago, but the mindset was very different, and people's habits were very different.

So that's something that we've been working on during that period, where we've been trying to encourage and show people how easy it is and how cheap it is, as long as you have broadband. That's another issue, of course. But if you do have broadband at home or if you have 4G, then this is all possible. So that process has been ongoing. So, in a way, you're right—it was luck emerging from an unlucky situation where we couldn't access the transmitters and that's developed and it's brought people with us in terms of that digital shift during the period that we've been involved with this.

And we've developed too, because we saw that accessibility was very difficult at the outset in terms of encouraging people to listen. But we have been developing to broadcasting on various different platforms—Facebook, Twitter, Periscope, as well as non-digital media—in order to encourage people to broadcast what's important to them in their own communities. And particularly with young people—as soon as you tell them that they can broadcast through Facebook, they understand that immediately. If you tell them that they can broadcast through a pop-up studio, or whatever it may be, or through standing on top of a mountain and shouting, whatever it is, all of these media are available to them and that shift of mindset has happened, among each age group, ultimately.

Wel, dyna efallai beth yw sail y cwestiwn, mewn ffordd. Beth ydych chi'n ei feddwl yw pwrpas penodol radio cymunedol nawr? A ydyn ni'n sôn am y gynulleidfa? Efallai pobl sydd ddim yn ifanc, achos maen nhw'n mynd ar-lein ar gyfer bron popeth. A oes yna bwrpas arbennig?

Well, that perhaps is what the basis of my question is. What do you think is the specific purpose of community radio now? Are we talking about the audience? Perhaps those who aren't quite so young, because young people go online for almost everything. Or is there another purpose for it?

11:50

Wel, nid ydym yn arddel ein hunain—. Pe baem ni wedi datblygu’r hyn yr oeddem ni’n edrych i ddatblygu, mae’n siŵr y byddem ni'n ddigon hapus i gael yr enw ‘radio cymunedol’, ond 'radio cymdeithasol' yw fel rŷm ni’n disgrifio ein hunain. Mae hynny oherwydd—i fynd nôl at linell rydw i’n ei ddefnyddio’n eithaf aml o eiddo'r Americanwr Thoreau, a oedd yn dweud os ydych chi eisiau newid rhywbeth mewn gwirionedd, peidiwch â brwydro’r hyn sydd yna, datblygwch fodel newydd.

Yn y lwc o anlwc yr oedd Lowri’n sôn amdano, dyna beth rŷm ni wedi’i wneud; rŷm ni’n datblygu model newydd—model newydd yn ystyr y byd darlledu arferol, normal, a normaleiddio, ond nid o safbwynt diwylliant y Gymraeg. Mae hynny’n dod â ni at y peth. Mewn gwirionedd, nid bod yn gyfrwng yw nod Radio Beca, ac, a dweud y gwir, rydw i’n rhoi rhybudd nawr nid ydw i'n siŵr iawn pa mor berthnasol yw gweddill y cwestiynau yr ydym ni wedi cael rhagrybudd ohonyn nhw o fewn y shift rydw i’n gosod fan hyn nawr. Nid ein nod ni yw bod yn gyfrwng; ein nod ni yw gwneud i’r cyfrwng weithio ac i’r cyfrwng i fod yn 'gyfrwng i', a 'chyfrwng i' yw cyfrwng i ddatblygu ac esblygu ac ysgogi o’r newydd yr holl broses barhaus yna o gymdeithas.

Mae Raymond Williams yn enw y bydd sawl un ohonoch yn gyfarwydd ag ef fel meddyliwr ac arbenigwr, ac, wel, un o’r rhai sy’n diffinio beth yw diwylliant a beth yw posibiliadau diwylliant. Mae fe’n gosod mas mai dyna yw’r nod creadigol uchaf posib: ymroi i’r broses o greu cymdeithas. Yn hynny o beth, wedyn, rŷm ni’n dod nôl at osodiad Thoreau a rŷm ni’n ei ddweud—wel, rŷm ni'n symud mas o’r diffiniad arferol yna lle y byddem ni’n dweud, ‘Mae hynny’n perthyn i culture’ a rŷm ni’n rhoi ein hunain yn y lle priodol i ni, sef ‘diwylliant’. Mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid adnabod, cydnabod, nad yw ‘culture’ a ‘diwylliant’ yn gyfystyr; maen nhw’n cynnwys yr holl ystyron, wrth gwrs, ond mae canolbwynt y geiriau’n eithaf gwahanol. Mae culture, er enghraifft—a'r culture mae BBC a radio masnachol i gyd yn gweithio oddi fewn—yn hierarchaidd, mae’n gweithio o’r top i lawr ac yn cael ei reoli o’r top i lawr ac mae’n gweithio o’r canol mas. Mae bob amser yn gweithredu o’r canol mas. Mae hynny’n golygu bod yna bwynt o rym. Mae yna ganolbwynt o rym, boed hynny’n ariannol neu’n olygyddol, ac fel yr ŷch chi a’n gwaith ni ar yr ymyl yw trio perswadio’r canol bod yr hyn sydd gyda ni i’w drafod, yr hyn rŷm ni’n moyn ei drafod, yn bwysig. Rŷm ni’n gorfod gweithio trwy’r canol drwy’r amser.

Ond yn yr holl beth y mae Lowri wedi bod yn ei osod yna, o fewn y peth radio cymdeithasol yna, y peth rŷm ni’n galw’n Radio Beca, nid oes canol, ac, yn hynny o beth, wrth gwrs, mae’n gwbl unol â beth mae diwylliant y Gymraeg yn ei fynegi, sef ffordd o fyw sydd yn mynd â ni reit nôl at: enw’n gwlad yw Cymru, yw Combrogi, cymdogaethau ynghyd—cymdogaethau ynghyd, bröydd ynghyd—sydd yn golygu 'anghanoledig'. Rŷm ni i gyd yn ganolfannau a rŷm ni gyd mewn trafodaeth â’n gilydd. Y patrwm mae Thoreau yn gosod o fewn yr India, cyn i imperialaeth ei gymryd e drosodd, yw mai cyfundrefn anffurfiol o fröydd ynghyd yr oedd hi. Mae e’n bolitic gwahanol iawn, iawn. Mae diwylliant o fewn maes y Gymraeg, o fewn Cymru lle bynnag, os yw Cymraeg yn cael ei siarad neu beidio—y diwylliant sylfaenol yw pobl yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd, neu’n trio gweithio gyda'i gilydd, y peth mwyaf anodd ei wneud. Mae’n llawer mwy anodd na hierarchiaeth culture, lle mae rheolaeth yn gallu dweud, 'Gwnewch chi fel rwy’n ei ddweud’. Ond, o fewn y broses o gyd-drafod, mae’n rhaid i’r cyd-drafod yna fod yn onest ac yn agored. Byddem ni'n anghytuno amboutu ble rŷm ni'n mynd ond rŷm ni yn cytuno ein bod ni'n mynd, rŷm ni'n symud ymlaen. Felly, mae'r holl beth—yr hyn yr ŷm ni'n edrych i greu yn y fan yma yw nid rhywbeth sydd yn gyfrwng yn ei hunan, sy'n creu canolbwynt yn ei hunain, ond rhywbeth sydd yn gweithredu, sydd yn ymarferol, sydd yn gweithredu mewn yn y broses yna o greu cymdeithas, o ail-greu cymdeithas, o greu ein dyfodol ein hunain. Dyna le mae angen torri bant o'r ddibyniaeth yna mae arweinwyr y papurau bro yn sownd wrtho, ac nad ydynt yn gweld unrhyw ffordd o oroesi heb ein bod ni'n cael help, help, help, help, ond dod i'r lle yna le yr ŷm ni'n gafael yn y dyfodol ac yn ymrymuso. Ein gwaith ni, mewn gwirionedd, yw nid ysgogi a chymell a galluogi a chefnogi Radio Beca, ond galluogi, ysgogi a chefnogi gallu ein cymdogaethau i ymbweru yn holistaidd. A dyna ni—i fi, dyna ddyfodol logistic datganoli, y broses o ddatganoli. Felly, byddwn i'n dweud, rŷm ni yma i helpu.

Well, we don't style ourselves—. Had we developed what we’d hoped to develop, then I’m sure we would’ve been happy to have been called ‘community radio’, but we describe ourselves as 'social radio'. That’s because—to return to a line I use quite regularly from the American Thoreau, who said that if you want to really change something, don't fight what's already there, develop a new model.

In the fortune that derived from the misfortune that Lowri mentioned, that's what we've done; what we've done is to develop a new model—a new model in the sense of the ordinary modus operandi of broadcasting, but not from the point of view of culture and the Welsh language. That brings us to the point. The aim of Radio Beca is not to be a medium, and, I give you a word of warning now: I'm not entirely sure how relevant the rest of the questions that we've been forewarned about are in terms of the shift that I'm setting out here. Our aim isn't to be a medium; our aim is to make the medium work so that the medium delivers and it is a medium to develop, evolved and encourage this whole ongoing process of community and society.

Raymond Williams will be a name that many of you will be familiar with as a great intellectual and one of those who has defined what culture is and what the possibilities of culture are. He sets out that that is the highest possible creative aim: to commit to the process of creating community and creating society. In that regard, we return to the Thoreau statement and we say that—well, we are moving out of that normal definition where we would say, 'That relates to culture' and we place ourselves in the place that's appropriate to us, namely, diwylliant. That means that we need to acknowledge that 'culture' and 'diwylliant' aren't the same; they include all of those meanings, of course, but the focus of the words is different. 'Culture', for example—and the culture that the BBC and commercial radio all work within—is hierarchical, it works from the top down and it's managed from the top down and it works from the centre out. It always works from the centre out. That means that there is a focus of power, be that financially or editorially, and like you and our work on the periphery is to persuade the centre that what we have to discuss and what we want to discuss is important. We have to always work through that point of power.

But in what Lowri was setting out there, in this social radio model, as we describe Radio Beca, there is no centre point, and, in that regard, it is entirely in accordance with what Welsh culture expresses, which is a way of life that takes us right back to the name of our nation: Cymru, Combrogi, communities coming together, neighbourhoods coming together, which is decentralised. We are all centres of our own making and we are all in discussion with each other. It's a pattern that Thoreau sets out in the India, before the time of empire—an informal system of communities coming together and working together. It’s a very different politic. The culture in terms of the Welsh language and within Wales, if Welsh is spoken or not—the fundamental culture revolves around people working together, or trying to work together. It’s the most difficult thing to do. It’s far more difficult than working within the hierarchy of 'culture’, where the management can say, ‘Well, do as I say’. But, in this collaborative process, then that collaboration has to be honest and open. There will be disagreement as to the direction of travel, but we do agree that we are travelling and we are moving forward. So, what we're seeking to create here is not something that's a medium in and of itself, and creates that centre point in itself, but something that works on a practical level, that operates within that process of creating communities and recreating communities, and creating our own future. That's where we need to break away from that dependency that the editors of the papurau bro are chained to, and they don't see any way that they could survive without that assistance, but get to that point where we grasp hold of our own future and empower ourselves. Our work, in a way, is not to encourage and enable and support Radio Beca, but to encourage, support and nurture the ability of our communities to empower themselves in a holistic manner. For me, that is the future of the process of devolution. So, I would say that we're here to help.

11:55

Diddorol iawn, achos roedd hwnnw fel araith yn y Siambr yma. Rydych chi wedi sôn am fod yn—rŷch chi wedi iwsio'r gair 'ymarferol' yn eithaf diweddar yna, ac wrth gwrs mae'n lot haws i fod yn ymarferol os mae tipyn bach o arian ar y bwrdd. A ydych chi wedi cael lles o'r gronfa, y community radio fund?

Very interesting. That was like a speech in the Chamber here. You've used the word 'practical' in your speech, and it's far easier to be practical if there's some funding on the table. So, have you benefitted from the community radio fund?

Ar y cychwyn, yn yr hen fodel, ar y cychwyn, do—dyna beth oedd y £10,000 cychwynnol a oedd ar gael. Rydw i'n meddwl, o fewn y broses sydd ohoni, mae'n rhywbeth bod yn rhaid i ni edrych arno, ond, o'n dealltwriaeth ni, fyddem ni ddim yn gymwys ar gyfer hynny ar hyn o bryd.

In the old model, at the outset—that was the initial £10,000 I referred to earlier. I think, within the process that currently exists, it's something that we'd need to look at, but, from our understanding, we wouldn't qualify for that now.

Wel, dyna pam rydw i'n gofyn—achos roeddwn i'n gwybod, actually, eich bod chi wedi cael yr arian. Ond mae e wedi diflannu erbyn hyn. Beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd, yn eich barn chi, i unrhyw un sydd eisiau gweithredu eich gweledigaeth mewn llefydd eraill o Gymru? Achos nad oes yna ddim cronfa ar gael ar hyn o bryd. Mae un yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ond nid yw'n glir i ni eto bod pobl yn ymwybodol o honno.  

Well, that's why I ask, because I knew, actually, that you'd had money. But the fund has been scrapped now. What's going to happen now, in your opinion, to anyone who wants to implement your vision in other parts of Wales? Because there's no fund available at present. There is a United Kingdom fund, but it's not clear to us yet that everyone is aware of that.

Roeddem ni'n cael gwybodaeth trwy'r WCVA yn ein hatgoffa ni fod y gronfa ar gael. Hynny yw, mae ar gael yn gyffredinol, ond nid yn benodol i Gymru, fel yr oedd.

We received information through the WCVA reminding us that this fund was available. That is, it is generally available, but not specifically for Wales as it was.

A oeddech chi wedi gwneud cais am hwnnw?

Did you bid for that?

Na. Rydw i eisiau edrych i weld—nid ydw i'n ei gymryd yn ganiataol, ond rydw i'n ryw feddwl, efallai, oherwydd nad ydym ni'n gweithredu o fewn system trwyddedu Ofcom, fyddem ni ddim yn gymwys.  

No. I want to see—I'm not making any assumptions, but I do think that, because we are not working within the Ofcom licensing system, that we wouldn't qualify.

A, reit. Ocê. Wrth gwrs, wrth gwrs.

Oh, right. Okay. Of course, of course.

Ond, wrth gwrs—sori i dorri ar draws—petai Lywodraeth Cymru yn sefydlu cronfa, mi allan nhw roi meini prawf a llinyn a mesur gwahanol, ac efallai byddai—. A ydych chi'n credu efallai a oes yna le i Lywodraeth fod yn cefnogi'r math o weledigaeth yr ydych chi'n trio rhoi ymlaen?

But, of course—sorry to cut across—if the Welsh Government were to establish a fund then they could set criteria that are different, and perhaps—. Do you think is there a role for Government to to support the type of vision that you're trying to put forward?

Pan oeddech chi'n sôn am feini prawf, roeddwn i'n mynd i ateb nôl gan ddweud 'neu ryddid', achos cyn lleied o feini prawf â phosib y byddai'n gwneud y peth i weithio, efallai—o'n safbwynt ni, o leiaf.

Well, you mentioned criteria, and I was going to respond by saying 'or freedom', because it's as few criteria as possible that would make it work—from our point of view, at least.

Wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid cael meini prawf, ond rhan o'r broblem, nid yn unig o fewn y drafodaeth o radio yr ŷm ni'n edrych arno, wrth gwrs—mae yn broblem rydw i wedi'i ffeindio fy hunan yn ymgodymu â hi ar hyd y blynyddoedd, sef bod y diffiniadau a'r meini prawf fel arfer yn dod trwy'r diffiniad 'culture', ac mae'r anghenion sydd o fewn fanna, y pwyntiau o berfformiad o fewn hynny, yn aml iawn yn amherthnasol i'r drafodaeth collaborative sy'n sylfaenol i'r cyd-destun o ddiwylliant. Nawr, rhan o beth yr ŷm ni'n edrych i'w wneud, a rŷm ni'n gwneud gwaith—rŷm ni'n edrych ar fodelau Ewropeaidd yn y fan hon, lle mae yna ddiwylliannau eraill mewn sefyllfa debyg i'r Gymraeg wedi dechrau datblygu ffordd o osod meini prawf sydd yn sicrhau, sydd yn rhoi'r sicrwydd yn ôl i arian cyhoeddus, sydd yn dweud, 'Ie, nid yw'r arian cyhoeddus yma jest yn mynd i gael ei wastraffu; byddwch chi'n gallu gweld hynny', ond yn gwneud hynny mewn termau sy'n briodol i gyd-destun lle mae e ynglŷn â—. Nid yw amboutu ddarparu, amdanom ni'n darparu i rywun arall. Mae e'n golygu lle mae yna gymdogaeth o ymddiriedolaeth yn datblygu ac rŷm ni i gyd yn ddarlledwyr, rŷm ni i gyd yn wrandawyr—rŷm ni'n newid o fod yn ddarlledwr o i fod yn wrandäwr o eiliad i eiliad, o bosib. Felly, mae'n fodel cwbl wahanol, lle mae pawb yn actif, a hwnnw yw'r peth sylfaenol bwysig. Ac yn nhermau holistaidd ynglŷn â datblygu economaidd, ynglŷn â datblygu addysg, ynglŷn â datblygu iechyd, ac iechyd meddwl yn arbennig, rŷm ni i gyd yn rhan o'r broses yma ac o fod y peth yr rŷm ni'n galw'n 'radio' neu 'ddarlledu'—ac maen hen, hen air yn y Gymraeg, yn mynd yn ôl i'r unfed ganrif ar bymtheg, rydw i'n credu, am ledu yn eang. Lledu beth yn eang? Wel, lledu ein dyheadau, a thrafod ein hanghenion, adnabod ein potensial. Mae'r potensial i gyd yna. 

Of course, you have to have criteria, but part of the problem, not just within the radio discussion that we're having here—it's a problem that I have found myself battling with over the years, namely that the definitions and the criteria that usually apply come through that definition of 'culture', and the requirement within that, the performance points within that, are often irrelevant to that collaborative discussion that is fundamental to the context of diwylliant. Now, part of what we're looking to do, and we're doing work—we're looking at European models, where there are other cultures in a similar situation to that of Wales and the Welsh language, that have started to develop ways of setting criteria that gives that assurance back to public funding, to say, 'Well, this public funding isn't just going to be wasted; you will be able to see what's been done', but does that in terms appropriate to the context where it is in relation to—. It's not about us providing for someone else. It means where there is a community of trust that develops and we're all broadcasters, we're all listeners—we change from being a listener to a broadcaster from second to second, possibly. So, it's an entirely different model, where everyone is active, and that's at the heart of this, that's fundamentally important. And in holistic terms with regard to economic development, developing education, developing health, and mental health in particular, we're all part of this process and of this thing that we call 'radio' or 'broadcasting'—and it's an old, old word in Welsh, going back to the sixteenth century, I think, for spreading far and wide. Well, what are you sharing? Well, we're sharing our aspirations. We're discussing our needs and aspirations and recognising our potential. The potential is all there.

12:00

Wel, ar y tir yna, oes yna le yn y weledigaeth am adverts sector cyhoeddus, yn arbennig ymgyrchoedd iechyd cyhoeddus, er enghraifft, fel mae Siân wedi awgrymu?

Well, along those same lines, is there room within the vision for public sector advertisements, particularly, let's say, public health campaigns, as Siân mentioned earlier?

Yn sicr. Yr hyn sydd yn datblygu, ac mae'r dystiolaeth yna gyda ni, hyd yn oed ar y raddfa gyfyngedig rŷm ni'n gweithio arni ar hyn o bryd, lle rŷm ni'n adeiladu'r capasiti i ledu'r weledigaeth yn fwy, i ni dyfu'r canolfannau, y man ganolfannau yma o ddarlledu, yn fwyfwy. Ond yr hyn sydd yna, wrth gwrs, yw ymgysylltiad oherwydd y berchnogaeth, oherwydd nid eich radio chi yw o, ond ni yw'r radio. Rwyt ti'n croesi ffin bwysig iawn, iawn. Oherwydd mai ni yw e, mae'r lefel o ymgysylltu a thrafodaeth yn ddwys iawn, iawn, ac yn real iawn. Ac, felly, mae defnydd o arian cyhoeddus drwy—. Mae'r hysbysebion yna hefyd yn fuddsoddiad yn y broses yna, yn galluogi'r broses yna i fynd ymhellach, ac yn dangos ffydd yn y broses yna, wrth gwrs. 

Certainly. What is developing, and we have that evidence, even on the limited scale that we're working on currently, where we're building that capacity to spread that vision, to grow the centres, the disparate centres of broadcasting, increasingly. But what's there, of course, is that connectivity, because of that ownership, because it's not your radio, but we are the radio. It's crossed that important threshold. Because we are it, that level of connection and relationship and discussion is very intensive and it's very real. And, so, use of public funding—. Those advertisements are also an investment in that process, and enable the process to go further and show faith in that process, of course. 

Your insurgent philosophy is very encouraging. And you're basically saying that the monopoly that Arqiva has over FM and DAB is irrelevant. We don't need to worry about it, we just side step it. Great. Okay. Could you just tell us then how you're able to measure your audiences, because they're great ideas, but how can we know who you're reaching?

Rwy'n mynd i ateb drwy'r Gymraeg. A ydy hynny'n iawn? Iawn. Mae'n ddrwg gyda fi, Jenny. Mae yna ddwy elfen i hwnnw. Un elfen yw bod gwe-ddarlledu yn rhoi—mae e'n rhwydd i weld faint o bobl sydd yn gwrando ar y pryd. Mae'r ffigurau yna'n dod, ac, yn wir, mae'n bosib cael dadansoddiad ar hynny hefyd. A'r un peth ar Twitter, oherwydd—nid ŷm ni'n gwneud e gymaint ar y foment, ond rŷm ni wedi defnyddio Twitter fel modd darlledu hefyd, o ran plannu syniad a gosod cwestiwn mas, ac wedyn gweld pa mor bell mae'r cwestiwn yna'n mynd yn y rhaniadau, wrth gwrs, ac yn y blaen. 

Ac un elfen eithaf diddorol yw—. Rydw i'n cofio un o'r darllediadau pop-up a bod yn eithaf siomedig bod y ffigurau o gwmpas rhyw 100 neu 150 o bobl a oedd yn gwrando ar y pryd, ond wedyn, wythnos ar ôl hynny, gweld bod yna 150 arall wedi gwrando, ac mae'r peth yn mynd ymlaen yn y ffordd yna. Hynny yw, mae ailwrando, neu wrando pryd rwyt ti'n moyn, yn rhan o'r cysyniad hefyd, wrth gwrs, sydd yn weddnewidiad sy'n digwydd ar draws y cyfryngau. Felly, mae hynny yna. 

Ond, i ni, y cwestiwn mwyaf pwysig yw i ba raddau mae'r pethau yr ŷm ni'n eu trafod yn cyrraedd ac yn gwneud gwahaniaeth. Mae e'n gymaint i wneud, felly, â'r drafodaeth, gyda'r grwpiau sydd yn dod i drafod ac yn defnyddio'r cyfrwng yn ganolbwynt i'w trafodaeth eu hunain, hynny yw i wneud iddyn nhw drafod yr hyn sydd i'w drafod, yn ogystal â'r hyn maen nhw'n rhannu wedyn, ffrwyth eu trafodaeth, yn eang, a beth yw effaith y rhannu yna ar y drafodaeth yna, sut mae hynny'n dylanwadu ar agweddau, ar yr hyn mae pobl—y cwestiynau mae pobl—. Hynny yw, os ŷm ni'n ddibynnol ar olygydd yng Nghaerdydd yn dweud, 'Wel, ydy, mae ysbyty Llwynhelyg yn bwysig, gwnawn ni gynnwys hwnnw yn y newyddion, ond nid yw beth sydd yn digwydd yn y ganolfan iechyd yn Llanybydder really mor bwysig'—. Ond i bobl yn Llanybydder, mae hynny'n hollbwysig, llawer yn fwy pwysig na'r hyn sydd yn digwydd yn Llwynhelyg. Os ŷm ni'n creu rhywbeth ac yn galluogi pobl i drafod hynny, y peth pwysig i ni yw nid yn gymaint faint o bobl sy'n gwrando—er rŷm ni'n gobeithio gwneud yn siŵr bod yna ddigon o bobl yn gwrando—ond pa mor bell mae'r hyn sy'n cael ei drafod yn y podlediad yna neu'r darllediad yna yn mynd o safbwynt galluogi trafodaeth democratiaeth leol i weithredu go iawn.

Ac yn nhermau democratiaeth leol—ac rwy'n gwybod bod gyda chi gwestiwn ar hyn nes ymlaen—. Yn nhermau democratiaeth leol, efallai, mae honno'n rhywbeth—neu ddemocratiaeth Gymreig—rŷm ni wedi dechrau taclo a gweithio arni hi'n uniongyrchol. Mae'n rhywbeth rŷm ni wedi ei thrafod gyda Llywydd y Senedd, er enghraifft—bod yna fodel, o bosib, o ran dod â phobl ifanc at ei gilydd a dod â nhw i le lle maen nhw yn trafod gwleidyddiaeth, hynny yw yn ateb y galw sydd ynddyn nhw i wneud, ond sydd ar hyn o bryd heb ffurf, neu nid oes yna ysgogiad iddo fe ddigwydd tu fas i addysg ffurfiol. Mae Lowri'n gallu dweud rhywfaint yn rhagor ar hynny, achos hi sydd wedi bod yn arwain ar y gwaith yma.

Can I respond in Welsh? Is that okay? Fine. Sorry, Jenny. There are two elements to that. One is that internet broadcasting makes it easy to see how many people are listening at any given time. You have those figures, and, indeed, you can have an analysis of those figures too. And the same is true on Twitter, because—we don't do that as much at the moment, but we have used Twitter as a means or broadcasting, in terms of planting ideas and putting a question out there and then seeing what the reach of that question is in terms of the shares, and so on and so forth. 

And one of the interesting elements is—. I recall one of our pop-up broadcasts and being quite disappointed that the figures were around 100 or 150 people who were listening at the time. But, then, a week later, I saw that another 150 had listened, and it grows. That is, listening again, or listening on demand, is part of the concept too. That's part of the transformation that's happening across the media. So, that's an issue.

But, for us, the most important question is to what extent do the things that we discuss reach people and make a difference. It is as much to do, therefore, with the discourse and with the groups that come together to have that discourse, and using that medium as a focus for their own discussions, as well as what they share, the outputs of those discussions, and what the impact of that sharing is on the wider discussion, how that influences people's attitudes and how it influences the questions that people ask. That is, if we are reliant on an editor in Cardiff to say, 'Well, yes, Withybush hospital is important, we'll include that in our news coverage, but what's happening at the health centre in Llanybydder isn't really as important'—. But for people in Llanybydder, that is crucially important, far more important than what's happening in Withybush. If we create something and enable people to discuss that issue, what's important for us is not necessarily the number of people listening—although we do hope that we'll have that critical mass of listeners—but how far what's being discussed in that podcast or in that broadcast goes in terms of enabling a democratic discussion at a local level and that local democracy can truly work.

And in terms of local democracy—and I know that you'll have a question on this later—. In terms of local democracy, or in terms of Welsh democracy, that is something that we have started to tackle and to work on directly. It is something that we have discussed with the Presiding Officer, for example—that there may be a model in terms of bringing young people together and bringing them to a place where they are discussing politics. That is, meeting the desire within them to discuss politics, but at the moment, there is no platform and no encouragement for them to do that outside of formal education. Lowri can say a little more about that, because she's been leading that work. 

12:05

Os ydych chi eisiau, jest yn fyr. Haf y llynedd, yn dilyn sawl etholiad, wrth gwrs, a oedd wedi bod ar wahanol lefelau, roedd pobl ifanc yn dod atom ni yn dweud eu bod nhw a phobl ifanc eraill yn eu mysg nhw—bod lot o gwestiynau nad oedden nhw'n eu deall am ddemocratiaeth, am wleidyddiaeth ar sawl lefel, ac eisiau gwneud rhywbeth am y peth, yn gweld angen iddyn nhw eu hunain gymryd perchnogaeth dros sut mae gwella'r sefyllfa yma, sut mae gwella eu gwybodaeth eu hunain a'i thrafod hi, ond sut mae cynnwys lot mwy o bobl—pobl ifanc roedden nhw'n sôn amdanynt yn bennaf—fel rhan o'r gwaith yna a gwnaethon nhw—. Er enghraifft, o'r pethau mwyaf amlwg iddyn nhw, yn digwydd bod, y prif un: beth yw'r gwahaniaeth rhwng beth mae'r Cynulliad yn ei wneud a beth mae San Steffan yn ei wneud. Roedd hynny'n rhywbeth roedden nhw'n gweld yn broblematig ofnadwy pan oedd hi'n dod i etholiadau a thrwy'r flwyddyn ac ati trwy weithredu. Mae'r wybodaeth yna yn eisiau ymysg pobl ifanc a phobl o bob oedran, mewn gwirionedd.

Dyna oedd un o'r pethau, ond roedd rhyw bedwar neu bump o brif bethau roedden nhw eisiau eu taclo. Fe wnaethom ni ddechrau gweithio gyda nhw a dangos iddyn nhw, o weithio gyda'n gilydd, gallwn ni ddefnyddio cyfryngau'r dechnoleg rad sydd ar gael ac unrhyw gyfryngau roedden nhw eu heisiau er mewn trafod y problemau yma, trial ffeindio rhyw fath o atebion neu drial helpu lledu gwybodaeth am ddemocratiaeth a gwleidyddiaeth, yn enwedig, a'i wneud e mewn ffordd hollol annibynnol hefyd, nid yn bleidiol, ond ei wneud e'n annibynnol a thrial taclo'r busnes yma o newyddion ffug hefyd—roedd hynny'n eu poeni nhw. Felly, fe fyddai e'n gallu bod yn blatfform ar gyfer gwneud hynny.

Fe wnaeth un o'r bois a oedd yn rhan o'r criw yna fynd i'r coleg gyda ni wedyn—a fe oedd yn arwain mewn gwirionedd—ac mae e wedi mynd ati i greu sioe radio ei hunan ar orsaf radio'r coleg, rwy'n credu, ar wylio gwleidyddiaeth, sef y cynllun y gwnaethom ni ei ddechrau—

If you like, just briefly. Last summer, following several elections on different levels, of course, young people came to us saying that they and other young people in their midst had several questions that they didn't understand about democracy and politics on several levels, and they just wanted to do something about this—they saw a need for themselves to take ownership over how to improve the situation, to improve their own knowledge and discuss it, but also how to include far more people—they were talking mainly about young people—as part of that work. For example, some of the things they were most concerned about—as it happens, the main thing was what the difference is between what the Assembly does and what Westminster does. They saw that as being very problematic in elections and throughout the year. That knowledge was missing amongst young people and people of all ages, if truth be told.

That was one of the things, but there were four or five things that they wanted to tackle. We started working with them and showing them that, if we work together, we can use the cheaper technologies that are available or any media they wish to use to discuss these issues, to try to find some kinds of answers or to try to share information about democracy and politics, in particular, and to do it in an entirely independent way, not in a party political way, and also trying to tackle this issue of fake news. They were concerned about that. So, it could be a platform for doing that.

One of the young men who were part of that project went to college then—and he was leading on this—and he's started a radio show himself on the university's radio station, I think, on politics, which is the scheme that we started—

Yng Nghaerdydd.

In Cardiff.

Yng Nghaerdydd, ie. Felly, rŷm ni wedi colli'r boi am dipyn bach, ond mae e wedi mynd ati a gweld y cyfle i ddefnyddio'r cyfryngau i drafod rhywbeth sydd angen ei drafod, ac rwy'n gwybod ei fod e wrthi'n—

That's in Cardiff, yes. So, we've lost that young man for a while, but he has gone and seen the opportunity to use the media now to discuss what needs to be discussed, and I know that he is—

Mae honno'n elfen bwysig o ran eich cwestiwn chi, achos i ni, mae'r ffaith ei fod e wedi mynd â'r cysyniad ac wedi ei berchnogi e ac, i bob pwrpas, efallai wedi anghofio unrhyw beth amboutu Radio Beca yn becso dim arnom ni. Y peth pwysig yw y mae e'n ei wneud e. Mae e wedi mynd â'r syniad ac mae e'n ei ddatblygu e ei hunan. Felly, ein gwaith ni yw'r ysgogi, galluogi, cefnogi. Mudiad yw Radio Beca—mudiad—a mudo, symud, yw peth sylfaenol mudiad—nid sefydliad. Rŷm ni eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod pethau'n symud, bod y ddeinameg anodd yna—y blydi niwsans yna, sy'n pallu aros yn llonydd—ac yn symud, yn newid ac yn datblygu mewn i rywbeth creadigol yn barhaus. 

That's an important element in terms of your question, because, for us, the fact that he's taken that concept and taken ownership of it and, to all intents and purposes, may have forgotten everything about Radio Beca doesn't concern us at all. The important thing is that he's doing it—he's taken the idea and he's developing it himself. So, our work is encouraging, enabling and supporting. Radio Beca is a movement, and that movement is at the heart of any movement. It's not an institution. We want to ensure that things are moving forward, that that difficult dynamic, that bloody nuisance that simply won't remain static, is there, and is moving, developing and changing into something creative continually. 

12:10

Okay, but to make this movement sustainable, how are you going to generate the income that you're going to need to pay people? Everybody has to eat, and whilst you might have enthusiastic volunteers both transmitting what's happening in their local village or town, you do need people who have it as their main job. How are you going to generate the income? 

Unwaith eto, mae yna ddwy agwedd i hyn. Yr agwedd gyntaf yw mai beth rŷm ni ei angen yw'r ysgogwyr a'r galluogwyr. Yr arweinyddiaeth yw beth sydd ei angen, felly nid ydym ni'n edrych i gyflogi darlledwyr na thechnegwyr, ond mae'r tîm ysgogi yna yn hollbwysig. Rŷm ni ar hyn o bryd yn edrych i ddatblygu—gydag arian LEADER, yr arian had—a sefydlu'r timoedd yma, a fydd wedyn yn gweithredu yn wenyn diwylliannol. Hynny yw, eu gwaith nhw—bydd yna ddim swyddfeydd a bydd yna ddim stiwdios—fydd bod mas. Pe baem ni'n clywed eu bod nhw yn troi eu cartref i mewn i swyddfa neu rywbeth, fyddem ni ddim yn hapus, achos eu gwaith nhw yw bod mas yng nghanol pobl yn gweithio gyda pobl—pobl ifanc, yn arbennig, ond ddim yn ecsgliwsifyn datblygu, yn codi ac yn lledu yr ymwybyddiaeth o'r hyn sydd yn bosib. 

Once again, there are two aspects to this. The first is what we need is those motivators and enablers. The leadership is what we need, so we're not looking to employ broadcasters or technicians, but that enabling team is crucially important. At the moment, we are seeking to develop—with LEADER funding, the seed funding—these teams that will then operate as cultural pollinators. That is, their work will be—. There will be no offices, there will be no studios—their work will be being out there. If we hear that they are turning their home into an office I wouldn't be happy at all, because their job is to be out there among people and working with people—young people, particularly, but not exclusively—developing, and enhancing the awareness of what is possible. 

Ond ble mae hynny'n arwain yw—os y gallwn ni godi'r lefel yna o weithgaredd yn ddigon uchel, ar sail y tair blynedd o arian had, wedyn rydw i'n ffyddiog ein bod ni yn dod mewn i sefyllfa o nawdd, o arian masnachol ar lun nawdd, lle mae busnesau yn gweithredu, unwaith eto, i atgyfnerthu eu lle o fewn eu proffeil o fewn y gymdogaeth ac o fewn ein cymdeithas ni. Ac rŷm ni'n gwneud hynny, nid o safbwynt rhywbeth rŷm ni'n gobeithio bydd yn digwydd; rŷm ni'n gwneud hynny ar sail gweithgaredd sydd eisoes yn llwyddiannus o fewn maes theatr, lle rŷm ni yn— 

But where that leads is—if we can increase that level of activity to a sufficient level, on the basis of the three years of seed funding, then I am confident that we will come into a situation where commercial funds will be available in terms of sponsorship, where businesses within the community would become involved, once again, in order to reinforce their position and their profile within their own communities, and within our society. And we would do that, not from the point of view of something that we hope will happen, but on the basis of activity that is already successful within theatre, where we are—

So, you're not talking about advertising, then, you're talking about sponsorship by businesses. 

Ydw. Mae'r ffin rhwng y ddau—

Indeed, yes. The boundary between them—

Mae angen i ni gael atebion byrrach achos nid oes lot o amser gyda ni ar ôl. So, os yw hynny'n iawn, achos byddwn ni ddim yn gallu cyfro popeth. Diolch. Jenny.  

We do need some briefer responses because we don't have a great deal of time left, if that's okay by you, or we won't be able to cover everything. Thank you. Jenny.

Yn iawn. Mae'r ffin rhwng hysbysebu a nawdd yn fan hyn—hynny yw, nid nawdd 'Helpwch ni' ond nawdd 'Byddwch yn rhan o rywbeth deinamig sydd yn siarad ar ein rhan ni i gyd', ac mae'r llais o ddweud wrth bobl, 'Dyma beth yw'n diddordeb ni' yn ddeinameg bositif sydd eisoes ar waith ac yn gweithio.   

All right. The difference between sponsorship and advertising—that is, it's not sponsorship as in 'Please help us' but sponsorship in terms of 'Be part of something dynamic that represents us all', and the voice of telling people, 'This is what is of interest to us', is a positive dynamic that is already in place and is already working.  

Okay. So, you're going to get this sponsorship because of word of mouth, because the business locally will know that their customers are talking about your service. You know, if you haven't got RAJAR figures, will they accept the figures that you're going to be able to pull off from—[Inaudible.]

Ni fydd ffigurau RAJAR, ond yr hyn sydd gyda ni yw ein bod ni'n cynnwys pawb o fewn y drafodaeth. Ers y cychwyn, mae entrepreneuriaeth, ar ba bynnag lefel yw e o fewn y cymdeithasau hyn, wedi bod yn rhan ganolog o'r drafodaeth. Felly, nid yw fel pe baem ni yn mynd at rywun gwahanol. Rŷm ni'n gwneud yn siŵr bod y drafodaeth yn cynnwys yr elfen yna o entrepreneuriaeth, ac yn holi am anghenion a photensial entrepreneuriaeth, yn enwedig, wrth gwrs, yn nhermau cymdeithasol. Mae hynny yn barhaus. Felly, nid ydym ni yn mynd at rywun tu fas; rŷm ni'n cynnwys yr atebion hyn o fewn y drafodaeth.  

There won't be any RAJAR figures, but what we do have is that we include everyone within that conversation. From the very outset, entrepreneurship, at whatever level within these communities, has been at the heart of the conversation. So, it's not as if we're going to someone else. We are ensuring that that conversation includes that element of entrepreneurship and seeks out the potential of entrepreneurship, particularly, of course, in social terms. That is ongoing. So, we're not going to an external organisation; we are including and finding these solutions within our communities. 

Okay. So, what are the legislative restrictions on what you're doing, because although what you want to achieve sounds very community focused, you could see that others could be using this model for much more pernicious messages? 

Mae e'n bosibl, ond o fewn y gwaith rŷm ni'n ei ddatblygu—

That's possible, but in the work that we're developing—

12:15

So, what are the legislative restrictions on what you do?

I ddweud y gwir, rŷm ni'n gweithredu ar sail neu fel estyniad ar ffurf naturiol y diwylliant, sydd yn golygu ein bod ni'n gweithredu o fewn ffurfiau cymdeithas ac o fewn ffiniau cymdeithas. Y gymdeithas ei hunan sydd yn gosod y ffiniau.

Truth be told, we operate on the basis of an extension of the natural way of working within the industry, which means that we operate within the boundaries of society and societal norms. Society sets the boundaries for us.

Ocê. Mae'n rhaid i ni symud ymlaen. Sori, Jenny.

Okay. We do have to move on. Sorry, Jenny.

Jest cwpwl o gwestiynau gan Siân Gwenllian.

We have a few questions now from Siân Gwenllian.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest cwpwl o bethau o beth rydych chi wedi'i ddweud y bore yma, felly. Rydw i wedi bod yn edrych ar y safle we ac ar eich trydar tra eich bod chi wedi bod yn siarad, ac mae'n edrych yn hynod o ddiddorol ac yn werthfawr iawn, rydw i'n meddwl, ac yn cynnig, efallai, ateb i beth o'r problemau yma rydym ni'n clywed amdanyn nhw, yn ogystal â'r weledigaeth fwy eang. 

So, dau beth, mewn ffordd. A ydych chi'n ymwybodol bod yna fodelau tebyg mewn gwledydd eraill lle mae radio'n cael ei ddefnyddio yn yr un ffordd? Wedyn, roeddech chi yn sôn eich bod chi yn cael arian, neu'n bwriadu ceisio am arian, gan y cynllun LEADER, er enghraifft. Felly, mae'n rhaid bod gennych chi gynllun busnes o ryw fath, felly nid oed yna ddim byd i'ch rhwystro chi rhag ymgeisio am arian o bot datblygu economaidd Llywodraeth Cymru chwaith. Achos cynllun busnes rydych chi ei angen, ac nid ydy hwnnw'n gorfod cynnwys ffigurau manwl ynglŷn â gwrandawyr ac yn y blaen. Ond o ran y modelau yma, a oes yna wledydd—? Rydw i'n siŵr eich bod chi'n gwybod am wledydd eraill sydd yn gwneud gwaith tebyg.

Thank you very much. Just a few things from what you've had to say this morning. I've been looking at the website and your Twitter feed while you have been talking, and it looks extremely interesting and very valuable indeed, I think, and perhaps provides a solution to some of the problems that we've been hearing about, as well as the wider vision.

So, there are two things. Are you aware that there are similar models in other nations where radio is used in a similar way? Then, you did mention that you receive funding, or intend to bid for LEADER funding, for example. So, you must have a business plan of some sort, so there was no barrier for you in applying for funds from the Welsh Government's economic development pot either. Because it's a business plan that you need, and that doesn't have to include detailed figures on listenership and so on. But in terms of these models, are there nations—? I'm sure that you are aware of other nations that are working in a similar way.

Mae yna hanes i hyn sydd yn mynd nôl i'r hen Radio Ceredigion. Rhan o beth gafodd ei ddatblygu yn fanna oedd y defnydd, er enghraifft, o'r opera sebon fel cyfrwng sydd yn adloniadol, wrth gwrs, ond cyfrwng sydd—nid fel roedd yr Archers yn ei wneud, yn gosod mas dogma a pholisi amaethyddol neu beth bynnag—yn codi cwestiynau. Ein gwaith ni oedd codi cwestiynau, ac o fewn y model yna yr hyn a oedd yn rhoi grym i hynny, wrth gwrs, oedd nad tîm o sgriptwyr yn rhyw feddwl pa fath o brofiad yw gweithio ar fferm neu fod yn berchen ar fferm, ond mai meibion a merched a gwragedd fferm oedd yn ysgrifennu. Felly, roedd y cwestiynau a oedd yn cael eu codi yn dod yn uniongyrchol.

Mae'r model yna bellach yn fodel a gafodd ei ledu drwy'r ddibyniaeth, y berthynas a oedd gyda ni ag arian Ewrop. Mae hynny wedi lledu i ddiwylliannau lleiafrifoedd eraill, yn ffurfiol ac yn anffurfiol. Wrth gwrs, mae wedi mynd ymhellach na hynny hefyd, i gyfandir Affrica. Felly, mae yna synergedd hanesyddol â sefyllfa diwylliannau lleiafrifol, a Llydaw yn arbennig, lle mae yna, eto, hanes o bobl—mae'n dod nôl i gwestiwn Jenny, i raddau—ddim yn meddwl, 'Beth sy'n bosib i ni ei wneud fan hyn?', ond maen nhw'n meddwl, 'Gallwn ni wneud hyn, mae'r dechnoleg gyda ni i'w wneud e—beth sy'n rhwystro ni rhag ei wneud e?', a'i wneud e, a chynhyrchu drama gyfres fach ar iPhone ac yn ei darlledu yn syth. I ddweud y gwir, er ein bod ni'n cario'r enw 'radio' yna, rŷm ni'n eithaf—rŷm ni'n edrych ar unrhyw beth a phopeth sydd yn lledu'r ddeinameg yma.

Felly, rhan o beth rŷm ni'n edrych arno mewn gwirionedd yw—bob amser, beth sydd yn digwydd yn Belfast a Derry, er enghraifft. Mae gyda ni berthynas a thrafodaethau sydd yn digwydd yn fanna—cyd-destunau ychydig yn wahanol, ond, yn y bôn, yr un cwestiynau ydyn nhw. Ac rŷm ni'n edrych i daenu'r arbenigedd rŷm ni'n ei datblygu wrth fynd drwy'r broses arloesol yma—rŷm ni eisiau ei rhannu mor eang, ac mae diwylliannau lleiafrifol, lle bynnag maen nhw, yn rhan o beth rŷm ni'n edrych arno.

There is a story behind this that goes back to the old Radio Ceredigion. Part of what was developed there was the use, for example, of soap operas as a medium that is entertaining, of course, but a medium—not as what The Archers used to do, setting out dogma and agricultural policy or whatever—that raised questions. Our work was to ask questions, and within that model, what gave power to that was not that it was a team of scriptwriters thinking about what kind of experience it is to work on a farm or to own a farm, but that it was sons and daughters and wives who worked on farms who wrote the stories. So, the questions came directly from them.

That model has been shared through the reliance and the relationship that we had with European funding. That has been shared with other minority cultures, formally and informally. Of course, it's gone further than that as well, to Africa. So, there is historical synergy with minority cultures, and Brittany in particular, where there is a history of people—it comes back to Jenny's question—not thinking, 'What is possible to do here?', but they think, 'We can do this, we have the technology, what is stopping us from doing it?,' and they just do it, and they will generate a drama series on iPhone and broadcast it straightaway. Truth be told, even though we have the label 'radio', we look at anything and everything that does propagate this dynamic.

So, part of what we're looking at is what's happening in Belfast and Derry, for example. We have a relationship and discussions that happen there—slightly different contexts, but, at heart, they're the same questions. And we look to spread the expertise that we have in going through this innovative process here—we want to share that as widely as possible, and minority cultures, wherever they are, are a part of what we're looking at.

Jest un cwestiwn ar BBC i glou gan Neil Hamilton o ran y stwff ar newyddiaduraeth leol.

Just one question on the BBC to close from Neil Hamilton in terms of local journalism.

Can I ask you what your view is of the extent to which the BBC is helpful to the independent community radio sector?

12:20

Is helpful to—? Sorry, I lost that.

To community radio and independent radio. Has the BBC been helpful to you in any shape or form?

Yn y cyfnod cychwynnol o ddatblygu Radio Beca, pan oeddem ni'n gweithredu ar y trosglwyddyddion, cawsom ni gyfres o gyfarfodydd gyda phenaethiaid Radio Cymru a oedd yn bositif iawn, lle roeddem ni’n edrych am gyd-ddatblygu, gan gydnabod bod y cyd-destunau’n gorgyffwrdd ond, yn y bôn, yn wahanol. Roeddem ni’n falch iawn o hynny, oherwydd, yn ôl yn adeg Radio Ceredigion—nid wyf i wedi cyhoeddi hyn—mi oedd Radio Cymru yn gwneud ei orau glas i ladd yr orsaf, ac fe gawsom ni ymosodiadau go haerllug arnom ni, fel gorsaf, a dweud y gwir, yn bennaf, o safbwynt denu staff, ond hefyd o safbwynt ein hawl i ymwneud â gwahanol rannau o fywyd cymdeithasol, lle’r oedd y BBC yn mynnu nad oedd gennym ni hawl i fynd i mewn i’r lleoedd arbennig hynny. Felly, roeddem ni'n croesawu’r newid yna’n fawr iawn, iawn.

Erbyn hyn, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni’n gweithredu mewn maes sydd, i raddau helaeth, yn galluogi—. O safbwynt Radio Cymru, mae Radio Cymru yn gwneud beth mae’n ei wneud, a rŷm ni’n gwneud beth rŷm ni’n ei wneud. Rydw i yn rhagweld rhyw bwynt pan fyddwn ni'n licio ailgychwyn y drafodaeth, fel bod y pethau—. Mae yna bartneriaeth hanesyddol gennym ni gyda S4C ac rŷm ni yn y broses o’i hadnewyddu. Un o’r pethau canolog yn y bartneriaeth gyda S4C yw'r intelligence ar lawr gwlad nawr, o ran ‘Dyma realiti’r drafodaeth ar lawr gwlad’. Beth bynnag mae pobl yn dweud wrthych chi’n ffurfiol ac yn swyddogol ac o flaen y camera pan fyddwch chi’n rhoi camera o’u blaenau nhw, dyma’r hyn sy’n cael ei ddweud, dyma’r meddylfryd go iawn, ac rydym ni’n gallu cario’r intelligence yna i helpu S4C, er enghraifft, i ddod o’r lle yna lle maen nhw’n ceisio, o’r canol, dychmygu beth yw angen a photensial cynulleidfa, lle rŷm ni yn y gynulleidfa, a'r gynulleidfa sydd yn creu. Felly, mae yna botensial pellach iddo fe. 

Yr hyn sydd yn codi ofn, wrth gwrs, yw nid yn gymaint y personoliaethau sydd yn arwain Radio Cymru, ond mae’r BBC fel strwythur yn hierarchaidd ac nid yw hi byth, mewn gwirionedd, yn gallu colli’r rheolaeth ganolog yna. Ac fel sydd wedi digwydd gyda llawer o symud tuag at we-ddarlledu, mae'n moyn cymaint o reolaeth ag y mae’n gallu’i chael ac mae’n rhaid cadw llygaid ar hynny drwy’r amser.

In the initial period when we were developing Radio Beca, when we were working on the transmitters and so on, we did have a series of meetings with the heads of Radio Cymru, which were very positive, where we looked at joint developing, whilst recognising that there was some overlap in terms of the contexts despite being, essentially, different. I was very pleased of that, because back in the days of Radio Ceredigion—I have not said this in the past—but Radio Cymru were looking to kill off the station and there were some quite strident attacks on us, as a radio station, namely from the point of view of attracting staff away from us, but also in terms of our rights to become involved with various parts of community life, where the BBC would insist that we didn't have a right to delve into particular areas. So, we welcome that change very much.

By now, of course, we are operating in an area which, to a great extent enables—. From the point of view of Radio Cymru, Radio Cymru does what it does and we do what we do. I do anticipate that we would like to restart the discussion at some point in the future, so that—. There is a historical partnership with S4C and we're in the process of renewing that at the moment. One of the things at the heart of that partnership with S4C is the intelligence on the ground in terms of, 'This is the reality of the discourse on the ground'. Whatever people tell you formally and officially and when you put a camera in front of them, this is what's being discussed and this is the real mindset, and we can carry that intelligence in order to help S4C, for example, to come from that place where they're trying, from the centre, to imagine what the needs and potential of their audience is, where we are amongst the audience, we are the audience and we're an audience that is creative. So, there is further potential to that.

What causes some concern is not so much the personalities leading Radio Cymru, but that the BBC, as a structure, is hierarchical and it could never actually do away with that central management. And, as has happened with a great deal of the move towards internet broadcasting, it wants as much control as it can possibly have and we need to keep a very close eye on that.

Yes, because you do very, very different things to what the BBC does, it's very important that they should see you as complementary to what they do, rather than in competition with them.

Yn hollol.

Exactly.

So, what you said at the start was actually, I think, rather startling evidence about the way you were treated to begin with by a public service broadcaster funded by taxpayers' money. I'm rather shocked by that, actually.

Wel, i fod yn hollol onest, ar y pryd, mi oedd hi'n eithaf clir, o safbwynt y BBC, mai eiddo Radio Cymru oedd darlledu yn y Gymraeg ac nad oedd lle gydag unrhyw un arall, mewn gwirionedd, i fygwth yr hegemoni hynny. Ac rwyf i'n pwysleisio hyn: o safbwynt y berthynas â Radio Cymru, mae hynny wedi newid yn llwyr, ac rydw i'n falch iawn o hynny. Hynny yw, rydw i'n rhagweld, a byddem yn gobeithio y byddwn ni, ar ryw adeg yn clywed pethau sy'n cael eu datblygu o dan adain a thrwy ysgogiad Radio Beca yn cael eu darlledu ar Radio Cymru.

Well, to be honest, at the time, it was quite clear that, from the BBC's point of view, Welsh-medium broadcasting was the property of Radio Cymru and there was no role for anyone else to threaten that hegemony. But I do emphasise that, in terms of our relationship with Radio Cymru, that has been transformed, I'm very pleased to say. I do anticipate and I do hope that we, at some point, will hear about things that are being developed though Radio Beca being broadcast on Radio Cymru.

Well, one of the things that was said by witnesses from the commercial radio sector earlier on is that one of the important advantages that the BBC has is that they've got a television platform as well as a radio platform and they can integrate their services, to a great extent, to reach a wider public in so many different ways—sound and vision together— through video links to websites and so on and so forth. So, again, in complementarity terms, they could be very helpful to community radio if they opened up their facilities more.

Just a last question I'd like to ask—because time is really pressing—

12:25

—is about the BBC's plans to improve coverage of local democracy. They're going to fund 150 journalists in various qualifying local news organisations to assist this project. Do you see that as potentially benefiting you at all?

Jyst yn fras, os yn bosib, achos mae'n rhaid inni orffen. Felly—

Just briefly, if possible, because we do have to finish the session.

Ie, wel, fel gyda beth rydych chi wedi sôn amdano, yr annibyniaeth honno yw beth y byddem ni yn pryderu amdano gyda hynny, efallai. Hynny yw, mae'n swnio'n grêt cael lot o bobl ac adnoddau yn cael eu rhoi mas, ond maen nhw'n dal yn mynd i fod o fewn system dilyn golygyddiaeth y BBC, am wn i. Felly, y rhyddid hwnnw y byddwn i'n amau, efallai. Hynny yw, ffordd well o'i wneud e fyddai ei wneud e o'r gwaelod lan.

Well, as you’ve mentioned, that independence is what we would be concerned about in that regard. It sounds great having a lot of people and resources being shared, but they're still going to be operating within the editorial system of the BBC. So, it's that freedom, perhaps, that we would have doubt about. A better way of doing it would be from the bottom up.

Ocê. Mae'n rhaid inni ddod â hyn i ben nawr, ac mae'n rhaid inni ddod â'r pwyllgor ei hun i ben. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am roi gwybodaeth inni. Os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol, plis ysgrifennwch atom ni. Byddem ni'n croesawu unrhyw beth nad ydych chi wedi cael amser i'w ddweud. Diolch am ddod mewn i roi tystiolaeth heddiw.

We have to draw the session to a close now, and we have to bring the committee meeting itself to a close. So, thank you very much for providing evidence. If there is anything you'd like to add, please write to us. We would welcome that, if there’s anything you haven't had an opportunity to say. Thank you for your evidence this morning.

Diolch i chi.

Thank you very much.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr.

That's okay. Thank you.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42.

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Symudwn ymlaen at eitem 5, sef cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. A ydyw pawb yn hapus gyda hynny? Diolch.

We'll move on to item 5, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Is everyone content? Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:26.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 12:26.