National Assembly for Wales

Sure.

Okay. I preprared my presentation predominantly on community radio, because community is the thing that is really my area of expertise. I've worked in commercial radio—the BBC, et cetera—but—. One of the themes that goes through my document, I hope, is a need to enhance, improve and ameliorate the indigenous radio industry and culture within Wales. One of the worries, of course, with radio coverage—and, in particular, news—throughout Wales, with various kinds of operators dominating the scene, is the paucity, really, of locally generated news for the communities of Wales. As things go forward the indications are that that may change even further, with more news coverage operations moving even out of Wales to London and England. It's important that Wales has a voice, you know, and it is important that Welsh news is covered. Because if you're listening to local commercial radio and there isn't much being spoken about your local community, it's obviously simply a bad thing for Wales, really, and something that needs to be taken into account as the current legislative changes go through. It's important that Wales's news coverage has a clear, potent voice. 

Well, again, my stance on all of this is quite philosophical, really, and I think community radio—if you go to radio events, community radio is one of the forgotten cousins of radio almost, really, and what it has to offer is often not recognised. Because what community radio does differently to commercial, and even to the BBC, is that it's ground-up—it's a ground-up communicator. It's there predominantly, really, to give these local communities a voice and to generate hyperlocal content to talk about issues that are happening and that are pertinent to them locally. I mean the BBC—of course, here in Wales, BBC Radio Wales is a very fine and impressive organisation, but, unusually, compared to the rest of the UK, we don't have local radio as such here. So, there's an impact from that. So, community radio gives you this opportunity to get the indigenous, ground-up information from the actual communities and lots of stories that will never actually get covered that are very significant locally. Community radio has an opportunity, I think, to be that funnel of information for local communities. I think there'd be a great benefit to the communities of Wales if that was to be supported.

The Ofcom Advisory Committee for Wales has argued that we need to introduce a regulatory concept of all-Wales news, and you have yourself strongly advocated—or pointed to—the lacuna in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport proposals, where they talk about local news and UK-wide news but omit that intermediate tier of, in this particular instance, all-Wales news. Are there any practical difficulties in the way of having an all-Wales news coverage, given the geography of Wales, do you think?

Well, I mean, Wales is notoriously mountainous. Again, using the example of the BBC, they have a phenomenal amount of transmitters and there are technical ramifications in that. It is certainly challenging. It also comes back, of course, to the ever improving, luckily, provision of digital broadcasting services throughout Wales. Wales seems to be heading forward quite well in that regard. It certainly wouldn't be easy. It's not straightforward, which is another reason why I would again—[Interruption.] Not quite the same thing, but I would again argue that—. Morning.

What a grand entrance. [Laughter.] Can we do that again?

That's going to be a meme, now.

Well, that's woken us all up anyway.

I would again point towards the great attraction, really, of community radio as a gateway to hyperlocal news, which maybe could be fed in elsewhere as a starting point towards that. Certainly, there are quite a lot of practical difficulties and there's a long road ahead. I think Wales is probably—it's certainly not overserved, I don't think, by radio operations and news operations at the moment, apart from the BBC. There's definitely room to greatly enhance that.

The BBC is obviously super dominant, by virtue of the way in which it's funded and the length of time it's been around, and it's not subject to the same sorts of pressures that commercial organisations are.

Different pressures.

Different pressures—exactly, quite. So, to what extent does an all-Wales news service matter, do you think—people, say, in north-east Wales being so far removed from the Cardiff Bay bubble? Are we in danger of getting things out of perspective down here? How much public interest is there, or can be generated?

I would guess, here at the Senedd, that there's quite a significant number of North Walians present. The issue in Wales, obviously, is that—

I'm being devil's advocate in asking these questions.

By way of a change. [Laughter.]

Normally, I'm the devil.

It's always the argument—quite genuinely, I think—that comes from the north and the less populated areas of Wales that everything seems to be very Cardiff-centric in terms of news coverage. The BBC often have those kinds of accusations pointed their way, maybe not always legitimately, but certainly there are cases where it tends to be quite Cardiff-centric. The whole of Wales is such a fascinating place. If you travel around Wales and you go to different communities, every community in Wales has a story to tell. There's a lot going on that just never gets recognised, mentioned or taken note of, really.

Indeed, and that's where community radio can help to address that balance—or imbalance, rather.

Well, I think so, enormously.

The other public policy issue that we've taken a great deal of interest in is a requirement for local production and getting away from this top-down mentality that we've had in the past where everything is concentrated in a major city like Cardiff. We need to try to spread out more and to create more local journalism. We've been looking at this, obviously, in the case of printed media, but it's also vitally important in relation to broadcast media.

I work for the University of South Wales, but Cardiff University have done some extraordinary work in that territory with their Centre for Community Journalism and their focus on citizen journalism and, again, ground-up newsgathering, which is a really exciting form of news, I think, and citizen participation, which is a huge part of what community radio has to offer.

I don't know if anybody else has got any more questions on that.

Can I just ask a question on that? You pointed to the fact that we've already looked at this in print media, which is absolutely right, and one of the questions we looked at then was this distinction between social-media voices, if you like, and professional community journalism. We're struggling to find it a little bit at community level. So, it's going to impact on community radio just as much as it would on a community piece of printed media as well. Do you think there's—? Is there enough of a pool of good-quality community journalists out there, just at the moment? I'm not saying it can't get bigger.

Probably not. Probably not, no, at the moment. But I think there's an obvious link between citizen journalism and citizen participation and community radio, which is, as yet, those two things don't coincide. I think if there was sustainability, of course, which continues to be a big issue for community operations—

Sorry, the reason I ask that is: would we need that growth in the pool before the idea of an all-Wales news service, outside the BBC, would be feasible or valuable?

If I can borrow Neil's line and play devil's advocate, I'd possibly come at it the other way. Maybe it's kind of chicken and egg. I think there's a great need to develop it. With nurturing and support, maybe we can move in that direction and improve the situation. It's not there now, I don't think, but I think it's something that is certainly worth pursing and supporting.

Okay, all right, thank you.

Thank you for that. Of course, I was listening to my local community radio, GTFM, as I was coming in, telling me that there was an accident and the traffic was backed up. So, apologies for being a little bit late. But what is the general state of community radio, really, in Wales? There have been changes to funding—the community fund is no longer available, and so on—and it seems to me that it's struggling.

I have a close affinity with GTFM. I actually helped to launch them, with the university, 16 years ago. I know, without going into detail, they’re having a tough time at the moment. They, of course, were the first community radio station in Wales—part of the initial tranche of developing community radio throughout the UK. There were 15 throughout the UK. They were there because of where they're sited and because of the history and social deprivation stakes, et cetera. But they're certainly suffering. They're a good example, actually. GTFM are suffering, and most other stations are.

They've all got their own individual issues and needs. One thing that was very useful was when there was a localised community radio fund for stations in Wales. My connections with the community radio network say that that is greatly missed. I know we live in austere times and things are tough, but if there was any way of reinitiating something like that or reintroducing some sort of fund that gave them some sort of comfort zone, I think, again, it would be money well spent. But they're in a parlous state really throughout Wales.

Of course, there were the issues with Point up in Rhyl, and other stations. The Radio Beca story that I tell here, which would have been this fantastic operation serving Welsh-speaking communities throughout the heartland of Wales, which didn't work out, is indicative of the kind of difficulties that the sector encounters. There are a whole number of economic challenges that they face in the north, of course, with 'local' radio stations such as Heart, et cetera, and the ability to sell advertising.

Some of the legislation has been softened recently, and that's a step in the right direction, but they're really struggling to stay afloat. I think the way forward is for them, as I try to argue here, to articulate with each other and integrate with each other and help and support each other, but hopefully with the support of yourselves, wherever possible, to help them, because it's of great benefit to us in Wales that it survives and eventually prospers.

There are a couple of questions that follow on from that. Firstly, just for the record as much as anything, how do you summarise that actual value added of community radio? What does it bring that we don't get from everything else?

Well, by its very nature, it's community led. It's community radio. My argument is that there's a community of communities. These stations are disparate, they're varied, they represent different communities, they have different music policies, they have different approaches to Welsh language—for example, Môn FM in Anglesey—they do things in different ways, but what they are trying to be is a gateway and a voice for the local communities.

Also, on top of that as well, I have accredited radio training courses that I can no longer deliver— again, subject to funding changes—but the idea behind that was ground-up progression routes for people from local communities who would never have considered university. The chip was there on the shoulder—grampy didn't do it, my father didn't do it, et cetera—in these Valleys communities. It was about opening up their mindsets and transferable skills and ground-up, progressive opportunities for people.

The media, particularly community radio, radio as such, is so cheap, it's so cheerful, it's so immediate, it's so easy to get involved in—you can sit in front of the microphone and you're on air. If I walk into a community radio station, such as Radio Cardiff, which is about 500m from here, I could end up on air. If I go to the BBC, that's certainly not going to happen. In commercial radio, it's never going to happen. So, it's an absolute avenue of opportunity and progression for people in Wales.

Can I follow on, then, on the funding point you make? Because you make a very good point about the community radio fund, the impact that has had in not having that cushion, and that's set out in the papers. Chair, I understand there is a paper from Terry Threadgold from GTFM that deals with some of that, which I thought was a good summary. But one point that's made is, certainly, in my experience of community radio, it is very localised. You can hear it in Pontypridd market, people have it on in the shops and things like that. It is very localised. There's a lot of Welsh Government campaigning, but one of the funding aspects is, of course, very few of those campaigns actually seem to then be booking space on community radio. Is that an experience—is that common? Is that a problem?

Totally. Totally common. Like I said earlier, community radio, it's almost forgotten. People don't notice radio. Radio's something that, when you drive in your car, goes in one ear and comes out the other; you're doing your ironing, it's just on in the background. But community radio is even further down that route. GTFM—I think it was 2002 that it launched, if I remember—there are still people who've never even heard of GTFM, even in their own community. So, it's a case of getting the message out, but I don't know how you break that down in terms of advertisers. They're not going to be appropriate to the big brands, Coca-Cola, et cetera, but, local companies, if they wanted to actually communicate with local people in their near vicinity and get a message into the right ear locally, then community radio is the perfect vehicle for that.

Do you think it would help if there was a specific approach from, I suppose, Government when it is engaging in, for example, its public health promotions on radios and so on that there was an obligation to engage with community radio? It seems to me that it gets into homes that some radio doesn't, but equally it is another way of actually ensuring that a certain amount of funding goes in through advertising.

I think that would be fantastic and beneficial to both parties, really. I don't know how you go about enforcing that, I suppose, but it would certainly be a big step in the right direction. That kind of communication, public interest information and campaigns, et cetera, is certainly a good way forward for community radio.

Well, one of the issues that arises in the papers—and I've been told this many times as well—is of course that, in order to promote advertising, as well as more general private advertising, you've got to be able to carry out some sort of work in terms of audience figures and so on. You've got to be able to tell what it is you're actually giving to advertisers. Bearing in mind that community radio can only raise a certain amount of money on that, what sort of obstacle does that create and what could we do about it? Is it really coming down to the fact that some sort of support is needed in supporting community radio to be able to obtain these figures or to carry out this sort of research and to put it on a level playing field with some of the other radio producers?

Obviously, RAJAR is just too expensive for community radio operators to deal with. They just literally can't afford it. But I think the way forward for that, in a number of ways—and it's starting to happen now a bit more than it has in the past—is, again, through just coming together and sharing and syndication and networking and collaboration. Because then, if I was running a station like Point in Rhyl—and they have a 5 km radio station, so they haven't got a massive output—if I say, I've got x amount of listeners that I'm trying to sell to you as an advertiser, you may or may not be interested, but if I said, 'Look, I've got this advertising house representing the community radio stations around Wales covering the whole community radio sector', then I think that becomes of more interest.

I think the way forward, again, for stations is further articulation and coming together and collaboration. There is a Wales community radio network that I set up with Hywel William. I'm sure you are familiar with Hywel William. We've been running a number of initiatives on that, but the problem that we have with the network is—I think of the people who run the community radio stations like hamsters in a wheel. They get in in the morning, spin around and around, they go home again. To actually get out of that and stop and have time to develop, it is not often there, and they also don't have the resources and they don't have the finances. So, I think some more networking, more shared collaborative activity, which brings them together, where they help each other, is definitely the way forward. But also, that safety blanket of some sort of funding from Wales to the community radio sector would really be fantastic.

A couple of very short questions, then. Firstly, is community radio worth saving, and, secondly, do you think the problem is that it's gone off the Government's radar to some extent?

Two interesting questions. Well, I'm a passionate supporter of community radio. I've worked in commercial radio and BBC radio. I'm a senior lecturer in media. Community radio is, without any shadow of doubt, the most fascinating form of broadcasting—well, certainly, operating within Wales. I mean, for me, there are different stories that these operations have to tell. But, again, going back to the opportunities that prevail there to develop this ground-up opportunity for people to immerse themselves locally within media and use that as an educational tool to progress, advance, widen their horizons, develop transferable skills, maybe consider taking it further and doing some more formalised education along the way, towards further education and higher education et cetera, is a fantastic thing. It generally gives communities a voice, which, again, is an amazing thing. I think, on the aspect of training, if there was a way to break that vicious circle and make that affordable, that might be something that, again, may be for the universities. We also need to collaborate and find a way of being able to deliver training, which used to happen before, which was at the point of demand. So, they'd go into their local station, in the local area, with people that they knew, and they were receiving accredited training with bursaries. So, that model was fantastic, but it's currently not achievable, but it's one that would be a very good thing to do because, again, that would really solidify the educational outcomes from it.

And your second question was—

Do you get the feeling that community radio has slipped off the radar?

To some extent I think it has, yes. In a way, it's kind of understandable, with all the issues that have been going on with other parts of the radio industry and the media industry. I think community radio do their thing, and because they're not overt enough and there's not enough recognition and awareness of them, they're just quietly doing their thing. That's all fine, from the perspective of, maybe, Government, but I think it needs to be recognised that they have something to offer that is quite unique and special.

Okay?

Thank you.

Yes. [Laughter.]

Well—thinking how to word with this now—I used to be the award leader for a BA radio course, and the BA radio course is no more. There was a television course that is no more. It all comes down to numbers and it comes down to viability. Students—the numbers have to be right, et cetera. Of course, Cardiff University are doing some excellent things, as I say, with some journalism projects. My personal belief is that there's very much a need for—and I think that the University of South Wales would be an obvious candidate to lead such an initiative—and there's very much an argument for exactly what you've said, Siân, which is to encourage links, again, and more articulation between the academic institutions in Wales, the kind of pan-academic activity, working with local communities, again, to support from the ground and bring those people through. It's something that I'm personally looking at, but of course, eventually, I'd need the support from the university. In my case, I'm thinking there's very much a need for at least an undergraduate, if not MA, in community media, with a big strand of radio running through it. And, obviously then, when you think about the word 'community,' of course the word 'community' is quite contentious itself as there are different interpretations of it.

But in terms of the people who I work with at the university, there are people who are artists, photographers, they work in tv, they create film, they create animation, I do radio, we've got the journalists. It should be an indigenous melting pot of creative content that feeds that need within Wales. I totally agree with you.

But it's not just Cardiff, of course, as there are colleges all over.

No, of course not. I have links with Glyndŵr, Trinity and other universities, and where there have been community radio stations, then those partnerships have evolved. But certainly, universities, we can't be an island in the storm either; we have to work together. I just wanted to mention this, actually, from Bob Shennan's speech to the Radiodays Europe conference just a few days ago, and he wasn't talking about community radio at all, but he's talking about technological advancements. He's talking about when he gets together with other agencies at conferences:

'For many years, they gathered as allies and rivals—public radio versus commercial, and commercial versus commercial, et cetera, but it's now time to come together as one united radio industry to secure our future.'

And that kind of ethos again runs through it. It is about building these new links and new relationships, and working with others. It's not the time to be closing the door and saying, 'This is me, this is what I do,' and so on. We have to come together.

Just before Suzy moves on to DAB, can I just ask a question based on your answer to Mick Antoniw in terms of the syndicate that exists? I was wondering, in relation to the radio situation, whether you could come together to ask them if they would provide a low-cost service to community radio stations for audience measurement, but come together as a syndicate, as opposed to individual community radio stations applying, because then you would be able to pool that resource for certain purposes. That was a recommendation made by Marc Webber, and I just wondered, instead of Welsh Government funding that, whether a syndicate could do that.

I would totally support that, and what we've done at the university a number of times is that we've had various symposia and seminars, occasionally, in a room not quite as grand as this, but we've managed to get community radio stations into the same room to discuss and talk with each other and share their experiences, and that's fantastically useful.

The problem that we have is—going back to the hamsters-in-the-wheel thing—they're all so busy and they have so little money, they have so little time, they have such limited resources, they're literally chasing their tail from one second to the next. But to get people together and discuss would be very valuable, and that's certainly something that has been put to them before, in fact. I know there's interest in it, and I would like to try and set up another event to try and get them together. Last time, Môn FM were communicating with us via Skype, which is fab. At least we're communicating with each other.

I don't know what the protocol is for this, but I would say openly here that I would love it if I could get a representative from this committee to come to such an event, if possible, and maybe be part of that process of communicating with the community radio stations, trying to get them to engage with each other and see what value it could be for Wales, really.

We'll see. I'd be happy to come, and I'm sure other AMs would be too.

It's an informal comment, but I would love that, if it was possible.

I'll just come onto DAB in a second. I just want to explore that a little bit further because collaboration has always got value to it. Do you see the possibility, then, if the community radio combined voice is strong enough, that that might actually push some leverage into producing an all-Wales news service? I appreciate that relates to commercial radio as well, but one of the things I notice with my local community radio is, during the talk sessions, in between the music, the news is very strong and it's very local. And then, on the hour, we get a drop-out to some random wire buy-in bulletin that doesn't even get a Welsh voice on it sometimes. Can you give me just a sense of where those wire—? Where are they buying their on-the-hour news from?

I'd say probably Sky News, maybe.

It could be; I genuinely don't know. There's a variety out there.

Which is your community radio?

Radio Tircoed.

Okay. I know Tircoed. So, they're probably—

Sometimes they read them out, sometimes it's—

Okay. Most community radio stations, and most commercial stations, traditionally, have used a syndicated news service. It used to be IRN and then it became Sky, and, obviously, it's for the UK, so there's very little Welsh content. Unless it's a major story, they don't tend to mention Wales too much, but another encouraging thing that's been going on recently—. My impression is that community radio stations are starting to partner up a bit more with commercial stations, actually, and there is a recognition that they can work together to a certain extent. Certainly, that is where community radio can feed stories in and work with better resourced commercial partners to improve, I think, the provision of Welsh-based stories in Wales.

I'm pleased to hear that because, obviously, commercial radio itself is sort of under scrutiny a little at the moment about how local that is as well, so if there's any chance of mutual exchange of relatively local information, that's got to be good.

I know that, locally, I think Radio Cardiff have had conversations at least with Nation. I'm not going into the ins and outs of this conversation, but there's a conversation that is starting to take place, and certainly that would be a good output from that.

Well, the BBC's been helping in Cardiff as well, hasn't it, in terms of mentoring? Can you tell us a little bit about that experience and whether you think that's worth rolling out, particularly as the BBC is going to be planting local journalists all over the press in Wales at some point?

I've got a number of opinions on that. The link between the BBC and community radio over the years—I would sort of describe it as kind of a—

This is just specific to this mentoring scheme. I think Jenny's got some other questions about the BBC for you.

I think I would describe it in some ways as a kind of avuncular kind of relationship, like a great uncle, if you like, and the BBC is such a slow-moving vehicle; it's a juggernaut. It doesn't move very quickly, and community radio need things to happen quite quickly. For reasons of its size, apart from anything else, the BBC is quite a difficult vehicle to move and this articulation needs to move quite quickly, really.

But the concept of mentoring—

Oh, it's absolutely to be encouraged, yes, and more of it. Going back to the point that was made by Neil earlier, it's also about outside of Cardiff and other parts of Wales. You know, it's time to get that story out.

Okay, so it could be people other than the BBC doing the mentoring there.

Well, it could be, yes. It could be commercial radio operators. There are those in Wales who have quite decent news provision and may well be prepared to help each other, yes, I hope, in terms of, at least, story sharing et cetera, and also in terms of mentoring and a certain amount of sharing skills. Commercial radio won't want community radio to get too good at it, I wouldn't think, but there may be mutual meeting points.

Yes, places where they can meet.

Perhaps if I can ask you about DAB, then. There were some concerns on this committee that the switchover to DAB is—there's a possibility now that the thresholds have been met across the UK but Wales is behind the curve considerably and even asking our major radio stations to just go to DAB is a bit of a question mark, for me anyway. There have got to be some advantages, presumably, to community radio going on to DAB as soon as possible, then. Is that realistic?

Well, obviously, the turn-off has been recently kind of put back. We don't know when that will happen now. I would come back to the 50 per cent mark and the car industry and the automotive industry, et cetera. I don't know with DAB. On DAB for community radio, again, it comes back to costs, which are extremely expensive, so the low-power DAB initiatives, which took place elsewhere in the UK where they were part of projects—there weren't any in Wales—were highly successful. On the trials, they did a report in 2016. They co-ordinated this series of DAB small-scale, more affordable trials, and basically they concluded that they were highly successful and achieved their objectives, showing that a small-scale approach to DAB transmission is technically sound. It helped Ofcom, the trialists and wider industry to understand the practical requirements for successfully sustaining DAB radio transmissions using the small-scale approach. That's the way forward, I think, for smaller stations, because DAB is so prohibitively expensive.

I was just going to say—because local DAB has got to reach 90 per cent coverage before we consider switchover. I think that's like a fantasy for Wales.

Yes. I don't know how it works in Wales with this, but these trials were very successful elsewhere in the UK. There are no plans to run such trials in Wales, but the model has been proven to work quite well and is significantly more affordable. 

Right. Thank you. Just very briefly, I appreciate that you say that, if broadcasting were devolved, that would make life a lot easier for ensuring that there's more Welsh-language coverage—on all radio platforms, for that matter. But, bearing in mind that it's not devolved and that community radio is a very specific sector, if you like, could you just help me to understand how much discretion local community radio has about how much Welsh it broadcasts and how much discretion Ofcom has got to perhaps impose conditions?

Well, I don't honestly know an answer to the second part of that question. I don't know how that works, but the community radio stations themselves, in terms of their licensing commitments and promises of performance et cetera—they can negotiate those with Ofcom as part of their licence commitments. For example, Môn FM, obviously, is pretty much 100 per cent Welsh.FootnoteLink There are other stations in Wales that have some Welsh language provision. Even GTFM, which is very much an English-speaking community, really—they quite intelligently and strategically pepper their music policy with Welsh-language pop music, which is quite a nice touch. Again, they've always had a good relationship, going back to the BBC thing, where they have shared appointments with news et cetera. So, they're doing some interesting things. I think the 3 o'clock news goes out from the BBC on GTFM—I think I'm right in saying that.

Okay, thank you. Diolch. 

You earlier described the BBC as avuncular and slow. Should we expect something better of them in terms of nurturing community radio?

I wasn't being overly critical there. I have worked for the BBC. They're a big, huge organisation, so it's difficult for them to move quickly. I think that's the way it is. I think there are certainly advantages, and I think the BBC is starting to—well, they have recognised it for a while, actually. There are advantages in them having more working links with community radio operations, I think, and more outposts emerging as a result. These hyperlocal stories can come through and, in return, the community radio stations benefit from the expertise and skills of people within the BBC. There have been links over the years, and I think it's something to be encouraged—

Well, it's certainly a win-win for both parties, but you're saying that it's—well, it's not happened for a variety of reasons. If we had opt-out news on Radio 1 and Radio 2, that might obviously generate more local news on the BBC, listened to by more Welsh people, because, at the moment, they're getting all the news from London, in the main. So, do you think that's one of the triggers that might actually sort of regenerate that sort of collaboration?

I actually wasn't aware of that initiative, but it sounds like a really interesting idea—

Well, Tony Hall talked about it when he came to talk to us about having news opt-outs, just like they do on television.

It was a committee recommendation in our previous report as well, suggesting that, because of the propensity of people who listen to especially Radio 2 in Wales, there could be an opt-out for news for Wales. Sorry, Jenny.

I don't know how—. I don't know whether anyone else here knows that, actually. I wonder how that would be welcomed by the listenership. I don't know.

By—?

I wonder how the listenership would respond that and how—

Okay, but it wouldn't necessarily be all news, it would just be—

No, but it's a really interesting idea though, isn't it?

Well, it's one of the things that could happen, because obviously one of the biggest problems for us and for the Welsh Government is that the political discourse is weak because most people are listening to radio produced outside Wales and reading newspapers produced outside Wales. So, obviously, you make a good case for the role that community radio can play in terms of community cohesion, but they can't do it on their own. And we all pay the licence fee—

Oh no, definitely, they can't do it on their own, no.

We all pay the licence fee, so when community radio goes to the BBC to ask for either technical training or indeed sharing airwaves, even, what is the response? Have they even asked?

I'm not aware of that. One crazy idea I had a few years ago—I'll mention it now, since I've started, but it is a mad idea, really. I did investigate this a little bit. I put it together again as a kind of philosophical proposition, really. But I wonder how people would respond throughout Wales—and throughout the UK in fact—if a tiny percentage of the licence fee was more overtly directed towards community media. I wonder how they'd feel about that. I think it's an interesting one—if it was a tiny percentage. And then there's an overt outcome that is visible/audible and they're giving something back to their communities and giving their communities a voice. It's a totally hypothetical idea, but I just wonder—it's probably a non-starter at the moment, but I just generally wonder how people would react to that idea.

But it doesn't necessarily have to be money. It could be in kind.

Yes, it could be in kind.

Because the most expensive part of the whole operation is news gathering, so if community radio is to move beyond just transmitting one person's opinion, it needs support.

Yes.

So, have the community radio people you meet with talked about this as a way of enhancing their offer?

Well, they haven't really talked about much, because they don't really talk to each other. When I did my research, when I travelled around north Wales—. I'm Cardiff born and bred, this is my home city, but I've been to north Wales, and north Wales is a big place once you start travelling around it. Even people at Calon FM in Wrexham didn't really know the people at Tudno FM in Llandudno, and then you had Point FM over in Rhyl and of course Môn FM in Anglesey—they're far enough away even there that they don't, in their little spinning wheels, even communicate with each other. But it's certainly a fantastic example of the useful dialogue that they could have if they can be encouraged and supported to work together.

I absolutely agree—

Before you move on, Jenny, is it okay if I ask a question based on that? Because when I've gone on community radio shows, they've lauded the fact that they can be more free with how they do their programming and what questions they ask. If you had a slice or a part of a fund from the BBC, do you think that would confine community radio to rules—? Actually, it's quite liberating to go onto community radio and hear some of the things they discuss, as opposed to, sometimes—it can be quite stiff and bureaucratic if you're discussing things on the BBC. Not wanting to disparage the BBC overtly. Mick.

I wanted to just follow on from that. Here is the crux of the problem: there is a tremendous potential for community radio, but it's struggling to keep its head above water. It's not a question of not wanting or being able to communicate around with the others on a common interest; it's that they all seem to be struggling, basically, just to keep going. There isn't the time or the resource to actually move to that next level, and that's what our interest might be—how do we actually support them to move to a level where they can really maximise their impact?

There's a bit of an ethical quandary, isn't there, really, in terms of—ultimately, community radio stations need to be independently viable and sustainable, but at the moment, they're in such a parlous place, it's how to get them to a sustainable position, I suppose. There have been, obviously, limitations on advertising, as we know. That's been softened a little bit. They're never going to be, I don't think, particularly competition to their commercial partners in the way that sometimes it's perceived. Again, I'd go back to—. And it does self-defeat what I've just said, to an extent, because it is a quandary, but I think it would be—. I think at the moment they've never needed any community radio funding more than they do now, maybe to help them to build those links and move to the next level and a more sustainable position.

To answer Bethan's question, I don't know whether that's more of a—maybe they have a slightly idealistic interpretation there, because they're still limited, to a large extent, by Ofcom dos and don'ts and their promises of performance, et cetera. They probably are more informal. They are probably less finitely journalistically sound, compared to BBC competitors and commercial competitors, because they haven't had that kind of professional training, to some extent. But they are slightly different animals. Again, citizen journalism is an interesting one, in that the argument comes about—. If I'm doing a music show and I'm not a very good presenter and I'm making a few mistakes and I'm a bit all over the place—putting the records on at the wrong speed, whatever it might be; say the wrong thing—that's kind of okay. But, when it comes into news it becomes more of an issue. I think that, again, it comes back to training and support—maybe not professionalism, but certainly training. I think there are kind of bespoke identities that community radio has, and that's represented in the way that it presents itself, and the way the presenters present themselves in the programming. They are not the BBC. They are not commercial stations. They are not there to be slick and professional. It's nice if they are professional, which they are in lots of ways, but I think a little bit of a rough edge is okay. But, of course, in news, it becomes more problematic. 

Jenny.

Well, I mean, if they are not insurgents, then what's their role? Commercial radio will go for the lowest common denominator audience because they want to make money out of it—

Yes.

So, I suppose the conundrum is how we support insurgency without it losing its sharp edge.

Yes—interesting.

What role do you think Ofcom could play in its new role as an external regulator of the BBC to ensure that some of the riches that we all pay for through the BBC are shared a little bit more widely? I'm not talking about the money. I'm just thinking about the training opportunities and, indeed, the transmission lines. Is there no way that the BBC could—? One of the biggest issues you have highlighted is the huge cost of transmission, particularly if you are trying to transmit over a sparsely populated area. 

Are you talking about sharing content, as such?

Well, I'm talking about sharing transmissions, because the BBC shares with S4C. So, why not?

Yes, I mean, it's all quite new, isn't it? These breakthroughs are just coming through, and we don't know how it's going to shape up. Again, moving forward, I would greatly encourage that kind of synergy. We're kind of at an experimental stage with it, I suppose, really—it's very embryonic, isn't it? But, it would be worthwhile, yes. 

Okay. I'm not a techie, but we're told by the BBC that they expect to get a 50 per cent DAB audience in this quarter, and therefore that starts to trigger a move towards switchover. Does that present opportunity or a threat for community radio?

That’s a really interesting question. I suppose, potentially, it has to be seen as an opportunity, because you can't turn back the tide. Technological advancements are happening every minute of every day, so you have got to move with the times. I think the small-scale DAB option is going to be the way forward for community radio. The thing with DAB is—. It's a bit difficult to explain, I suppose. I can’t quite get my head around how community radio stations—and maybe, Mick, with your example of GTFM—. You know, there they are in Rhydyfelin and the immediate vicinity. They are what they are. They are part of the community, and they have that FM frequency. But the DAB thing is more of a detached—. You said about a diaspora earlier, and it's kind of detached, in a way, from the community. I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well. I personally struggle to see/hear community radio on the same chunk of DAB stuff as everyone else. There's some sort of separation between the two. 

Well, look at it the other way around then. The BBC makes lots of good noises about how most of the population is not going to be disenfranchised by a switchover. But, if that turns out to be not the case, is that an opportunity then for community radio to move into a space where people are no longer going to be served?

There are mixed feelings on that because the idea was that, at one stage, when the digital switchover was looking more likely to happen, or more imminent at least, I think it was discussed that the community radio stations would have their top tier section of FM, which is fine because then they'd have their place, but they've become detached and, arguably, ghettoised, I suppose, from the mainstream, then. They're at that cut-off point. So, it's quite difficult to do it. It's nice to identify them as a sector, but if they are then remote and detached, it becomes more problematic.

So, who's decision is this? Ofcom's or the UK Government's?

I guess it would be Ofcom, I would have thought, predominantly.

I've just got a tiny point myself on what you mentioned with DAB. I'm not sure I understood your point in relation to being detached from the community—

Yes, it's a really difficult one to explain; I don't know if I can explain it myself—

I was just going to say that I've got an 18-year-old sister who is in that GTFM area in school, and as we've heard from evidence, lots of young people are listening more to Spotify, YouTube and DAB. If they were on that, would it be more likely that younger people in that area would listen to GTFM than they are currently, and, therefore, you've got a new audience that is not currently tuning into GTFM? So, that's what I was trying to—

Okay. I would hope I would be wrong, but my gut feeling is that, probably, young people wouldn't listen to GTFM—

It depends on your target, I guess.

GTFM's core demographic are 50-plus, and then if you suddenly move to DAB—. They might still be struggling to work out how to use the microwave. [Laughter.]

Okay, fine. You're not targeting the 18-year-olds—that's fine. Siân Gwenllian.

Do you mean in terms of terrain or transmission, or—?

Yes, generally in terms of the infrastructure. How big a challenge is it in Wales, moving on?

In some ways, Wales is doing quite well in terms of moves towards fourth generation and 5G-type capacity and it's exploring that territory quite well. The geography of Wales doesn't change, of course. Maybe DAB could solve some of those issues, actually, if you look at the FM/AM issues. The homogenisation of radio affects Wales just as much as anywhere else, where the big global corporations have ownership and continue to eat each other. I don't think that's particularly healthy. There's certainly room for more indigenous localised ownership of media and radio in Wales. Over the years, Wales has had its own stories to tell. I suppose maybe it comes back to the idea of autonomy for ownership of devolution of the right to investigate and pull it forward as a Welsh political community, I suppose.

Do you think enough work has been done around investigating the merits of devolving radio in particular? There's a lot of talk about S4C and television, but have we talked enough about devolving responsibilities for radio?

I don't think so. I'm not seeing or hearing that. You may be talking a lot about it here, I don't know. It's not something I'm seeing or hearing a lot of. It's a very important conversation to have, I think.

Okay, and you would be an advocate of that.

Yes, as you might expect.

And you wouldn't see any major disadvantages—

In terms of—?

In terms of devolving responsibilities for radio. I know what the advantages are.

I know that there are colleagues of mine who argue the reverse, but I just generally feel that nobody's going to do Wales any favours, and why would they be helping us to tell our story? So, therefore, we should put ourselves in the strongest position to tell our story for ourselves.

I agree. [Laughter.]

I do too.

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. I want to explore what role, if any, you see for the BBC in nurturing community radio in Wales, because, obviously, they have a slightly different role, but complementary.

I could probably pick up on that. Yes, I think that we're very supportive of community radio. In the past, we've had formal memorandums of understanding and informal ones. Currently, there's no formal agreement, but in 2011 we did have one, and that was a mix of content sharing, both their ability to use our content, which we'd still be happy to look at, but also using the community radio stations and community reporters to feed into Radio Wales content. So, that's happened in the past.

Now we have informal relationships. So, I'm involved with Radio Cardiff in Butetown; there's an element of mentoring and training as part of that. Calon FM in Wrexham is based in the same building at the university. So, we're based in the same building as them. We support them in terms of training. Some of their volunteers are actually involved in some of our outputs. Janice Long's programme on Radio Wales comes from Wrexham in the evening. Some of the volunteers there help us with live bands and sessions, and elements like that.

So, there's no formal agreement at the moment. We're keen to work with community radio and support them; it's very much an open door. I think we're also cautious, though, that we don't want to force ourselves on them. They are independent organisations. Sometimes, as I say, we see a very mutually beneficial relationship with working with Radio Cardiff, for example, and Calon FM in Wrexham, but as editor of Radio Wales, I don't really want to go round the country forcing myself on radio stations that don't want it, but very much an open door and willing to work with anybody who wants our support.

Well, that's good to hear, and perhaps it'd be interesting for us to see the memo—the formal memorandum you had in 2011.

We just heard from Steve Johnson of the University of South Wales earlier this morning. He says one of the issues for community radio is that they're like hamsters on a wheel—they're really struggling to keep their head above water, and that's possibly why—. You've obviously established good relations with some who may be, geographically, in the right place, but others haven't even thought of asking you for a bit of support with some training or sharing news. So, I just wondered what you think could be done if we could try and get them all in a room together to talk to you; perhaps that would be a way forward.

Okay. One of the biggest issues that Steve Johnson highlights is the cost of transmission lines, particularly in sparsely populated areas. That was faced by Radio Beca—huge transmission costs for a very small population. So, is that something that the BBC might be able to assist people on? I'm not a techie, but is it possible to share some lines that you're not using?

It's quite a linear process for the broadcaster. The line goes to their specific transmitter. We're not sharing transmitters. There is X community radio station, a Radio Wales transmitter, a Radio Cymru transmitter. They're not necessarily located in the same place, so the line goes from the studio to their broadcast transmitter. The capacity for us to share—the only way of doing that would be to take output off the BBC and broadcast the community station, or vice versa. So I think that's a slightly separate issue that Ofcom and the community stations and others would have to look at. I'm not sure of the potential for support there. 

Can I make a practical suggestion in addition to what Betsan and Colin have outlined, which is the local democracy reporting service? That's something I know you, Bethan, are very interested in. So, the local democracy reporting service—these are the 150 or so licence-fee-funded journalists who'll be working across the UK. The first 50 across the UK have been appointed. Around five are already appointed in Wales. When the project in the next couple of months reaches its maturity, there will be 11 journalists covering Wales, one for every two local authority areas. Already that's content from Ynys Môn council to Monmouthshire council—it's feeding its way through to those partners who have applied to receive the content. 

So, to go back to your hypothetical meeting with the community radio stations, I make this offer here now: if they are interested, that content is there, assuming they meet the eligibility criteria, and I can't see any reason why not. That content, including news copy and also clips, is there available to them. So, that would, I suggest, be very helpful in helping them better reflect the communities that they serve.

It will do nothing for plurality, but why, at the moment, aren't community radios coming to you for their top-of-the-hour bulletins, instead of going to Sky or other newswire services? 

[Inaudible.]—the other thing to remember is that each of those stations is regulated independently in the same way that we are. So it's not just a case of they have the ability to take our content all of the time. I'm sure there are specific provisions in each of their licences about the news that they produce and originate. So, anything they do would have to be in line with that. But I think, to follow on from Rhys's point, if there was interest in that, and they wanted to look at our news content, in Welsh or in English, we'd certainly be happy to have that conversation.

Okay, so it's a licence and regulation issue rather than—

It could be. It could also be that they want a point of difference. If you're in Wrexham, why would you want Radio Wales news broadcast on Calon FM and Radio Wales? So, I'm judging what they're thinking, but they may see it as a point of difference to have it from another service. But it's certainly a conversation we'd be open to. 

Okay. So there's no reason why they can't, unless it's regulatory. Okay, that's all I wanted. Thank you.

It's very straightforward: we're more than happy to have the conversation about how we work together informally and formally, but at the end of the previous project in 2011, there wasn't the appetite from everyone to continue, and so—

Because—

It varied; the output on the radio station—. So, if you have something like Radio Cardiff, it's incredibly rich. I think they've got over 50 different programmes and over 100 presenters and so they are really looking for us to work with them in terms of mentoring and development and just to help them manage and develop the range and numbers of people they have. But there are other smaller set-ups that perhaps don't have the same range and so the relationship with the BBC just wasn't as relevant. So, each individual station—10 in Wales—has a different outlook on their programming and has a different outlook on how they want to engage with different organisations. So, the door is absolutely open for us.

Personally, if we were to consider more a more formal arrangement, again, in terms of how we would work with them, we'd be more than happy to look at that, but it was just to flag that there is an inconsistency in terms of that each station is independent, they make their own decisions, and there wasn't the appetite from everyone involved to continue.

Thank you. I'd like to ask just a couple of questions about the state of Welsh news within this changing world, which, technologically, I find as complicated as when Facebook and Twitter first appeared and trying to understand what they actually meant and what actually happens. Every time it's explained to me, I understand it for five minutes and then it's gone again. Perhaps we should start by summarising, because, within your paper, you say that Radio Wales plays a crucial role in informing the Welsh audience with high-quality news and sports programming, but the state of Welsh news, global Welsh news, within this changing environment, almost in competition to the globalisation of UK news and world news—how do you see the challenges and your responsibilities in terms of how you deal with that?

Can I just add to what Betsan's saying there, Mick? This is, as I said at the outset, a new charter period for the BBC. So, between 2017-18 and 2019-20, we will be investing in English-language television, as you well know, but also in our provision of news: news for Wales, and news for Wales that is available across the UK. So, already, we're seeing the fruits of that investment on both Radio Cymru and also on Radio Wales.

So, for example, this morning you would have heard our Brexit correspondent, James Williams, giving a Welsh perspective on the Brexit discussions from Brussels. There's also a social affairs correspondent. There'll be additional correspondents appointed to some of those key portfolios that cover public policy issues across the next year. So, that's a very important and significant investment in trying to address some of those issues you're talking about there. There's also an additional point, which I think I need to emphasise, in respect of Radio Wales. It's all well and good having the correspondent there, having the content available, but, unless you can reach your intended audience, you are fighting that battle with one hand tied behind your back. So, the Radio Wales FM boost will, come the autumn—by the time it's implemented—bring Radio Wales on FM to an additional 350,000 people. So, in my book, that's a hugely important development and a real game changer for the service.

Well, just a follow on from that, then. Of course, the actual source of what people listen to is obviously major, and we know that, in terms of printed newspapers and everything else, where the source is—so, no matter how good and how diverse and the quality, it's the access to it. Now, one of the things that has been suggested—I think Lord Hall suggested it—is that there would be opt-outs on Radio 1 and Radio 2, that it was definitely on the agenda, and that would dramatically change the actual role of Welsh-orientated news in terms of the concept of global Welsh news as opposed to externally sourced news. Is that going to happen? If so, when is it going to happen, how is it going to happen, and how will you evaluate it?

Okay. So, the position in respect of Radio 1 and Radio 2 news opts, basically you would get a tailored Welsh bulletin on Radio 1 or Radio 2. The position hasn't changed since the BBC director general was sat in that chair the last time around. We have applied our best technical minds to this question. I've worked with them for many, many months to try to get a solution to this question. The problem, put very simply, is FM. So, on digital audio broadcasting, you can't opt out. It's one single frequency network across the UK on the Radio 1 and Radio 2 BBC multiplex. On FM, in order to have opt-out news bulletins for Radio 1 and Radio 2, you would have to use the Wenvoe transmitter. Now, the Wenvoe FM transmitter is a fantastically efficient transmitter. It's a big stick on the top of a hill. It blasts an FM signal out across the whole of south Wales and the former coalfield, as well as the south-west of England.

Well, we can have Welsh—[Inaudible.]

You may say so, but I think the good people of Bath, Bristol, the west country, Weston-super-Mare and so on would probably take a different view to that. Currently, it's not possible to opt out within FM because there is very little FM frequency available. That said, the concept is still a valid one, and it's still a concept that, in the fullness of time, when technologies change—particularly 5G technologies, I think there will be an opportunity to revisit that.

Just on the point of—

Could I stop you there? We've heard that you like the concept and are looking at revisiting and so on. All that implies to me is that there are quite a few obstacles there and difficulties to overcome, and it may or may not happen at some stage in the future but, basically, the sort of—suggestions have been made that it's definitely on the agenda, it's on the radar and so on, but the actual ability to commit to it is rather limited.

Well, there are two parts to answer on this question. So, there's the editorial question: is it feasible, editorially, to blend Welsh, UK and international news? Well, Radio Wales, Radio Cymru, they do that on an hour-by-hour basis. That is absolutely feasible. But in order to do that on a technically robust basis that would be acceptable to audiences in both south Wales and the south-west of England, currently it is impossible because of the FM issue. However, 5G technologies—and it's an area I urge you to take a long and hard look at—do offer, for not just network services but for the whole of the BBC radio portfolio, new options in terms of not having to be reliant on some of those quite knotty distribution technologies.

It's my fault; I'm getting a little bit lost. I'll try again. So, if you were back here in a year's time—if we were to jump ahead now to 12 months' time and ask you the same questions—what might be different in 12 months' time to where we are now?

Well, I think there's a process in terms of the 5G issue, the 5G auction, which is being overseen by Ofcom. That started this week. So, there will be a lag in terms of the availability of 5G, but this isn't a case of jam tomorrow. By 2020-21, 5G signals will be the industry standard in terms of mobile delivery, and that will have a massive impact on the way people consume radio and audio.

So, that is being seen as the mechanism for actually implementing the changes and the commitments that are really being made with regard to more access to a global Welsh news element.

Potentially, it's one of the means, yes.

I would say that, as the editor of Radio Wales, the other way of bringing Welsh news to more people is to strengthen the national services here, and I think that while Rhys and his colleagues will continue to look at options for Radio 1 and 2, what I'm certainly determined to do is to increase the audience of Radio Wales and to bring that. Good Morning Wales is still the biggest programme on Radio Wales. We're currently bolstering the programme with dedicated management and looking at ways that we can look at the mix.

I think your point about global news and a mix of national news is an important one. If we are repeating what our colleagues are doing on Radio 4 and Radio 5 Live, then that's not going to work. So, we're looking at the mix, we're looking at the identity of the programme, we're looking at the resources. So, from my point of view in Radio Wales, the absolute priority is increasing our audience there and taking our content to a wider audience, and that includes the boosting of the FM transmitter as well.

And how successful are you? What are your projections in terms of your strategy, and what has been the outcome over the past five years? Has there been much shift, or—? Have your listening figures been increasing or decreasing, your share increasing?

I started as editor a year ago. I was involved in the station a few years ago, but I started last year. We have had audience challenges in recent years. There's no doubt about that, so that's why there's a renewed focus, particularly in terms of Good Morning Wales, on making sure it has the support it needs, as well as making sure it's got the right editorial mix. So, I think we're at the start of a process on that, and we absolutely are focused on a strategy of increasing the audience.

Diolch. First of all, thank you for your evidence, and I'm happy to congratulate, particularly, Radio Cymru and its spin-offs for the work that it's done on Welsh-language music in particular.

I couldn't see much in the evidence about music coming from Wales, either English or Welsh, on Radio Wales. So, do you want to add a bit of colour to the evidence?

Yes, sure. A very strong track record. So, daytime programmes would be a mix of music. But if you look back at what we've produced, say, over the last month, about 20 to 30 per cent of the music we play on daytime programmes would be Welsh music, including Welsh language. We supported Welsh Language Music Day, so that's also part of the mix. Then, you have a range of programmes: Janice Long coming from Wrexham in the evening—where Welsh music plays a stronger element; indeed, live music and sessions as part of that, and supporting new talent—through to Chris Needs in the evening: an eclectic mix, but again including Welsh and Welsh-language music there. On weekends, Adam Walton is 100 per cent Welsh music, again broadcasting from north Wales—a huge champion of new Welsh music—to Frank Hennessy on a Sunday, who is at the more traditional end of Celtic music in Wales. So, I think across the board, a huge supporter of Welsh music, working with the BBC across the UK on things like BBC Introducing—artists like Dusky Grey, who was supported on our playlist and went on to be playlisted by Radio 1. We're working with Radio 1 on the Biggest Weekend in Swansea. So, new Welsh artists will play a strong role as part of that weekend in May, alongside Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift.  

Sold out.

Sold out.

Before it was advertised.

So, yes, we are very proud of the work that we do in terms of Welsh music, but I think, in particular, champions of new Welsh music like Janice Long, Bethan Elfyn, Adam Walton. Lisa Gwilym now has a new programme from Bangor on a Sunday evening. Very strong supporters of new Welsh talent.

Thank you. I thought it was just helpful to have that on the record, particularly as you said you're aiming to extend the audience for Radio Wales anyway. That's obviously more reach for music coming from Wales.

I wanted then to turn to network. I notice in your evidence you're quite happy to talk about other elements of the arts. You've got some reach into Radio 3 and Radio 4. I'm particularly looking forward to the series about the Habsburgs, I must admit. But, with the exception of classical music, I don't see anything in here about commissioning for programmes for Radio 4 in particular—either short feature series that might be about Welsh music, or episodes about Welsh music that might be in programmes that aren't just about Wales, if I can put it like that. Can you give me some sort of indication about what kind of work is going on in that territory, particularly as we've now got the new arrangement about portrayal and production—I don't want to call them quotas, but they are basically quotas—which are probably featuring quite large in your mind at the moment? 

There's probably a couple of things. I mean, obviously, we are leading on the Welsh service use, so we're not representing necessarily the national networks. But I do think we work closely—. Again, I think the Biggest Weekend would be an example of that, working with Radio 1. Not just Welsh music in Wales: the Stereophonics are going to be performing in Coventry with Radio 2. The Manic Street Preachers are going to be performing at Belfast with Radio 6 Music. So, it's also about how the BBC takes Welsh music outside of Wales. So, I think Radio 1, musically—very strong in terms of BBC Introducing. Obviously, Huw Stephens is on the station and is a big champion of Welsh music. Radio 2, because of the demographic, tends to be more established in terms of some of the artists that I've mentioned, and you've mentioned the work of the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, in terms of the concerts that they regularly have on BBC Three. Obviously, in terms of Radio 4, we have a network radio team based in Wales that is producing content for Radio 4. There's a series on at the moment, On and Off the Valley Lines, looking at real life stories on the Valleys lines and the stories that lead off of that. There was a recent half hour on Radio 4 about the work of National Theatre Wales. They regularly feature reviews on programmes like Front Row, so they did a big piece on Tiger Bay when it was on at the Wales Millennium Centre. So, I think there's rich content not only about Wales on the national networks, but being produced by teams here in Wales.

Yes. I was talking specifically about music and network commissioning, I suppose, or pitches made from within Wales. I appreciate that you're Radio Wales/Radio Cymru, but there will be eyes on you to see what you've been doing in the past and what might be attractive for network viewers. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add about that, because it's great to see some elements of the arts reflected on network, but modern music then just doesn't seem to be, apart from Radio 3 and Radio 4. Well, not Radio 3, but Radio 4 in particular.

I mean, Radio 4 is obviously not a music network—

But programmes about music.

Sure, but their focus would tend to be on an arts review programme like Front Row, and I think they've got a strong track record of being in Wales and reviewing programmes in Wales. When it comes to programmes about music, then it will tend to be more of Radios 1, 2 and 3 and what they're doing there. But there are conversations. We talk regularly to our colleagues at network radio and the controllers, with Bob Shennan, the director of radio. And, as I say, there are teams in Wales making those programmes for network and right across Radio 3, not just the actual concerts themselves.

Okay, thank you.

Yes, it's worth talking about Horizons, which is a partnerships with the Arts Council of Wales that is doing exactly what you're talking about. It's supporting artists, not just in terms of bringing them to the radio station. Both Radio Cymru and Radio Wales are big supporters of Horizons artists; they feature almost daily on Radio Wales, so there is that element of it. But it's also about mentoring, it's also about funding, it's about how to get their messages out there. We take them to festivals in Wales, like Festival No.6, it will feature as part of the Biggest Weekend in Swansea, but also to events outside of Wales and, indeed, the UK as well. So, I think Horizons is absolutely speaking to what you're talking about there. Radio Wales is 40 this year in November, so we're going to be doing a lot of music events as part of that. But, again, to go back to BBC Introducing, if you've got a laptop and you can upload audio, then you can be on the BBC. It's as simple as that. That's how people like Adam Walton in Wrexham get their music every week; it's on the BBC Introducing uploader. So, if you can record it anywhere and upload it, then you can get directly to BBC presenters and producers.

Oh, I listen to Adam all the time. It's amazing. I love the programme.

He'll be very pleased.

There we are. I don't need to advertise here now. Mick Antoniw, any more questions on—?

No, I think we've covered all the infrastructure points, in general.

Okay, so we'll go to Ofcom. Neil Hamilton.

For the first time, the BBC's now got an external regulator, and Ofcom's remit is to ensure that audiences in individual nations of the UK are 'well served', and that doesn't mean just globally but also segments of population within that, and principally, in this particular instance of course, Welsh speakers. It also has the responsibility of ensuring that a suitable proportion of network programmes are made outside London, including in each of the UK's nations, and that there is a more distinctive output and service provision generally as well. How do you think that this dramatic constitutional change in regulatory terms is going to affect you? Or are you not expecting there to be much change out of the Rhodri and Rhodri show?

The Rhodri and Rhodri show. That's a novel one. I'll consider that format. So, in terms of our regulatory obligations, the minimum number of news hours that Radio Cymru is obliged to broadcast every week is 23 hours, as set out by Ofcom, and it's slightly higher for Radio Wales at 32 hours. In reality, for both services, the number of actual hours of clearly definable news is higher, and then there are hours upon hours of other content that is very, very close to news. So, for example, take today's Beti a'i Phobol programme—Beti George interviews. That's close to news, but it wouldn't be formally counted as news hours.

Understandably, you as a committee have been focused on the news element, but I'd also urge you to consider the other part of the Ofcom radio requirement for both Radio Wales and Radio Cymru, which is to offer a wide range of programmes that portray Wales across music, across factual, across comedy, and so on. That element is equally important as well. So, in terms of serving our audiences, news is absolutely vital, but I think it's important, when it comes to understanding the purpose of both Radio Cymru and Radio Wales, it's not a case of news and something else, other bits. The 'other bits'—entertainment, comedy and music—are equally important in giving a Welsh voice, a Welsh tone to the purposes of both Radio Wales and Radio Cymru.

You obviously exceed the requirement that Ofcom imposes upon the BBC for news. One of the criticisms of Ofcom was, of course, that their requirement is too timid, but I don't say that as an implied criticism of the BBC. I think it's admirable that you do provide such a volume of news output. Are you intending to exceed the expectations of Ofcom in all the other sectors that I have mentioned, in the same way as you do in news? What I'm trying to get out of this is some understanding of whether the BBC is going to play ahead of the game, as it were.

Well, in terms of the other sectors to which I think you're referring, take for example sports programming. So, it's now nearly 11:35. There will be a live commentary on Radio Wales and Radio Cymru from the Wales versus China game. I don't know what the score is.

They're all watching Senedd.tv.

That's why I've got the headphones on. [Laughter.]

That type of commitment isn't set out in numbers, isn't quantified, but rest assured that our commitment to ensuring that Radio Wales serve their respective audiences with a wide range of content is absolutely central and is at the core of what we do.

I think you can take the view that somehow we are forced to do this content. It is our editorial ambition for the station. We're proud that we do the amount of news that we do, and the quality news and distinctive offer, similarly as we are with music. Radio Wales is making huge investments in terms of comedy. Ruth Jones is back on the station after six years. We are investing our support in Machynlleth Comedy Festival in terms of partnership there. So, you look at the range of content on both stations—all the different levers we need to pull to talk about increasing the audience of Radio Wales, we are looking at every part of that in terms of volume, in terms of quality and in terms of the range of output that we produce. So, clearly, what Ofcom sets out is a framework that we need to work to, but we are absolutely the ones who are pushing the boundaries on what we do, how we do it and the levels of quality of that.

I think on that inspirational note, it's a good place to end.

There's a surprise.

Well, when you have Bale, what can I say? Any comments? No. Okay.