National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da. Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to welcome Members to this meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee. I'd also like to welcome the new Auditor General for Wales, Catherine Mealing-Jones, to her first meeting of the committee. Would you just like to say a few words to introduce yourself, please?

I'm Catherine Mealing-Jones, the new Auditor General for Wales. I'm very much looking forward to working with the committee.

Thank you very much. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English is available. We've had apologies from Shav Taj. Can I ask Members if they have any declarations of relevant or registrable interest ahead of the start? None declared. Thank you.

Item 2, papers to note. This is to formally note the papers that we have received. The first two papers to note relate to the legislative consent memorandum on the Public Office (Accountability) Bill and have been shared with the committee for information. This LCM was referred to us by the Business Committee before the summer recess and we considered it at our meeting on 13 July. There will be an opportunity for Members to ask the Cabinet Minister questions on the LCM during today's evidence session.

The third paper to note is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee to all Senedd committee Chairs regarding the scrutiny of the Welsh Government draft budget for 2027-28, which is shared with us for information. We as a committee do not routinely scrutinise the draft budget.

Paper 4 is the response from the Welsh Government to the sixth Senedd's Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee's report on its inquiry into COVID-19. We're thankful to the Cabinet Minister for his response, but we would like some further clarity on certain aspects of the information provided, and we will prepare a further letter to the Cabinet Minister in due course about those. 

The final paper to note on today's agenda is a letter from the Welsh Government's director of governance informing the committee of information released relating to the external review of legislation for the Welsh Government on 24 August 2026. I'm pleased to say that the Permanent Secretary and his senior officials will be appearing before the committee in public on 15 October, and there will be an opportunity to discuss this as well as other issues at that meeting.

Do Members have any comments about the papers to note? No comment. Thank you. Are Members content to note the papers for the record? All content. Thank you very much.

We'll move on to item 3, an introductory evidence session with the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution. I'd like to formally welcome the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and Constitution to today's meeting. The purpose of today's session is an introductory public evidence session with the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution, henceforth referred to as the Cabinet Minister, to inform the committee's public administration priorities. Cabinet Minister, please could you introduce yourself and your officials for the record?

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I'm Dafydd Trystan Davies, I'm the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution. I'm accompanied by Jo Salway, who is director at the Cabinet Office. 

Thank you. I'd like to remind everyone that the meeting is bilingual. The headsets provide simultaneous translation from Welsh to English on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 2.

Cabinet Minister, the previous auditor general concluded after eight years in office that radical transformation is needed and that our current model of public service delivery is not sustainable. Do you accept that assessment? If you do, what are you prepared to stop, merge or fundamentally change that previous Governments have not been prepared to tackle? 

A gentle question to begin, Chair, I see. When we were preparing our manifesto for the elections and preparing for Government, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to meet and discuss with a number of colleagues, both in Wales and the UK, looking at best practice in terms of Government effectiveness, how you run a Government, how you deliver public services. I'll be candid and open with you, because I think that leads to more constructive discussions. The first thing that was clear was that there hadn't been that approach to look in detail from the Government as to how we were delivering on priorities for the people of Wales—the Welsh Government was delivering on outcomes—what kind of focus the Government was approaching and whether we were always taking advantage of best practice elsewhere.

There were a number of innovations at the UK level with the Cabinet Office. Members may be surprised to hear me talk of Francis Maude and Michael Gove positively, but both of them were exceptionally well regarded for the work they did in the Cabinet Office at the UK level in bringing a discipline and a rigour to matters. Therefore, there was a conclusion that we needed to look in detail at matters, that we needed a process to do so, we needed a strengthened Cabinet Office to drive through those changes, and that there should be three pillars to the work of the Cabinet Office, one being delivery. I'm pleased Jo is the director of delivery. We also have a director of strategy, and we also have a data unit as part of the Cabinet Office, because it's a matter of thinking through how the Government operates, how effectively it operates, and whether we are getting the best bang for our buck in terms of public administration.

I am three months into the role. I'm relatively impatient as a human being, I'm not one to rush to judgment, but it has become clear to me in those three months that there is work to be done. There's work to be done on the landscape of public services in Wales. Some of the work we've already begun is around one Welsh public service, bringing public authorities in Wales closer together in how they operate and how they effectively operate. There's a chunk of work being done there.

There's also consideration being given to how we make sure that our varying levels of regional governance operate effectively together. Some Members may be aware that our regional partnership boards and our public services boards are both undertaking data assessments at the moment, but there is no requirement upon them to consider using the same data for the same local areas. That seems to me like a very clear and definitive way where we should be making some progress.

The auditor general, clearly, is highly experienced in these matters. There are challenges in terms of good governance. Part of my role is to seek to address those, to listen, to learn, to take action, and I think over the next four years we will have several conversations as a committee, but that is one of the key areas of progress that I'd like to see happening. In four years' time, whatever our political views, I should like Members to be able to conclude that the Welsh Government is more effective. Because whatever happens after that election, a more effective Government will allow whomsoever is elected in four years' time to deliver on their priorities more effectively than is currently the case.

Thank you—

I won't be quite as long in all my answers. It's important for you to understand the context of where I am and what I hope to achieve.

That's fine. I will be asking for brevity going forward. Government efficiency is an attractive title, but this committee needs to be able to measure whether it is actually delivering anything. Will you commit today to publishing a clear baseline, quantified efficiency and productivity measures and time-bound targets against which this committee and the public can judge your performance? Also, will you commit to returning to the PAPAC to report against those measures, including where targets have not been met? 

First of all, I'm very keen to return regularly to this committee to report on progress. I should like to have an open dialogue about how you—. There is an interesting question about how you measure Government effectiveness and what kind of targets you have. I think that there is a danger in promoting very specific targets that can be measured in a very simplistic way. What you then end up doing is orientating a Government towards the achievement of what could be relatively limited targets rather than broader ones on Government effectiveness. Were the committee minded to write to me with suggestions as to a framework that it might like to suggest on how you measure the progress on Government effectiveness, I would welcome that.

Fundamentally, however, I'd also return to some of the priorities set by our Government—the underlying priorities around childcare, around education, around the economy, around child poverty and around health. Because ultimately, those are the priorities that have been set by the Government. If we are effective, then waiting lists will come down, childcare will increase, the economy will improve. None of those things is easy, and in some of those areas the levers that are available to the Government are less than in other areas, but that is certainly one measure of effectiveness at the highest level. So, I'd be open to that conversation, but let's ensure that we're seeking meaningful measures.

One of the things that has annoyed me and others in the past is that the Welsh Government is very good at measuring outputs—'We have spent x millions of pounds on y'—rather than asking, 'Are our schools better? Is our childcare improved? Is our economy improved?' And therefore there is a question around measures and outputs that I look forward to exploring further.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. I'm sure, as a committee, that we'll come up with a suitable set of measures for you at a future date. 

I'm sure that Cai has already written them.

I think that this has a fast answer. You mentioned child poverty there as a metric. Are you referring to real child poverty or relative child poverty? Because they're two very different metrics. 

Indeed. I'd look at both. I think that there are advantages and disadvantages to dealing with both, but I think that, to make progress, you need to consider both. 

Which is the most important? Because you could have a button here that would double the income of everybody in Wales; that obviously reduces real child poverty and increases relative child poverty.

We're almost into theoretical questions that would be better suited to a seminar, maybe, but ultimately—

I just want to understand the aims of the Government. 

Ultimately, the aim of the Government is to tackle both. However, in child poverty terms, what is absolutely critical is to make progress on real child poverty.

Thank you.

Thank you. Alun Cox.

Diolch. You've already outlined that one of the areas that you're looking at is having one Welsh public service. You're not the first person to have outlined that. So, can you tell us how the new body, Arwain, will lead on that and what you hope to achieve in terms of that service?

I'm pleased that Arwain builds on work that colleagues across the public sector have done over a few years recently. In terms of Arwain, I think having an integrated training and development offer for public services in Wales is really important, so that we look across public services and work out, 'How are we going to develop our public servants?'

But more than that, one of the things that has really concerned me is the lack of suitable candidates for senior appointments in Wales. Public sector bodies report regularly a lack of suitable candidates for senior public appointments in Wales, and therefore they may be interviewing a smaller number of candidates. Sometimes they're fortunate. We'll have seen in the press senior posts being readvertised on a regular basis. But for me, part of my analysis there suggests that there is a lack of a pipeline of development of public servants who work right across public services that haven't been developed over the past 20 years. Therefore, if we are to make the long-term changes we need and develop a cadre of public sector leaders in Wales who can lead our organisations effectively and efficiently, then I think that 10-year programme of developing the next steps of leaders is really important.

And finally, it also involves saying to people that, actually, what we want is people who have a breadth of experience—across sectors, certainly. But at the moment—. I mean, people working in the health sector would see their career pathways solely going through the—. My view, and the view of the Government, is that it would be beneficial if we had people moving from the health sector into education, into the housing sector, into central Government, back and forth from UK Government. That shared understanding of a public sector and public service would, I think, improve the calibre and quality of public sector leadership in Wales.

Thank you. If I can just very briefly follow up on where you'd arrived towards the end, beyond the UK as well, I guess, internationally as well, there's always a question then in terms of ethos as well. So, what do we know about a public service in Wales, the ethos, the kinds of values that we think are important that we will instil in our public service that may or may not be apparent in other services?

I think that is one of the—. There was work done a few years ago and left on a shelf around one Welsh public service and the kinds of values that have animated public services in Wales for a century and more, and I think being more explicit about that and then building that into our work across the public sector would be a significant move forward.

Thank you. Andrew R.T. Davies.

Just a brief supplementary, if I could, Minister. You said that the vacancy rate and then the reapplying or the readvertising of the jobs is consistent across many public services, and it's something that we don't want to see; we want to fill the vacancies as quickly as possible so that we don't have a void of leadership. Has any work been done by the Welsh Government and other public bodies to understand why people aren't putting themselves forward for these jobs, and is that work available to the committee, so that we can understand why the people aren't there? Because I don't think it's a problem across the UK, is it?

There was some initial work done under the previous Government, but it is one of the things that I'd hope that Arwain and those charged with moving forward on one Welsh public service would be able to collate and bring some of those data together, and, when they're available, again, I'd be very happy to share them. There are interesting patterns. It may be something—. As a Government, we have productive working relationships with colleagues—you won't be surprised to learn with colleagues from Northern Ireland and Scotland, but also with the UK Government. We could bring together some evidence from across the UK, because there are also sectoral problems. They're not unique to Wales, but there are some sectoral—

Could I just interject, Minister, because we've only got an hour? It is a fact that that evidence doesn't exist—comprehensive evidence doesn't exist.

Comprehensive doesn't—. It is something we'll be working on.

So, will you be commissioning it as a matter of urgency?

We'll be working towards getting a better understanding of what's going on, yes.

Thank you.

And your questions.

Right, my questions. That's what happens when you don't come to the pre meeting. [Laughter.]

Minister, one of the things that has blighted many Governments in this Parliament is obviously the inability to tackle local government reorganisation. When you're talking about social care and health, the bedblocking that goes on in health is very often a problem tied to social care and the ability to get people back into the community. Now, central Government in the shape of Welsh Government is the only beast big enough in Wales to tackle this knotty problem, and ultimately it will address many of the serious issues both in health and in local government. You're charged with public administration. What are you going to do about that? Is there any agenda within the Welsh Government during these four years to have any meaningful reform of local government, or is it, 'Stand on the status quo and the map of local government that we've got since 1996'?

The Government hasn't made any commitments to reform the boundaries of local government, as you'll be aware, Member. However, I think one of the things that has become even clearer to me in my role is the plethora of regional and sub-regional committees, boards and bodies. One of the things I have asked Cabinet Office to do is to look at that map and to look at the overlapping boundaries of those to see if we can bring greater effectiveness and efficiency to those areas. I think, clearly, it's a matter for people to consider in due course what the best structure of local government is, but our focus will be on those structures that are already existing, to consider are they the most effective and best structures to deliver.

So, for the next four years, there'll be no meaningful reform in local government under the Government?

I'm hoping to see practical, effective delivery of better regional governance in Wales during the next four years.

On your comment about the delivery unit that you've created, obviously, many delivery units have been created by successive First Ministers, some within the office of First Minister, others within the Cabinet Office. How will your unit be that much more nimble and able to drive change within the public sector so that people do see real achievement?

Well, I think there is a Government-wide focus on delivery. We've been clear about our priorities around childcare and around the economy, which I've rehearsed already, and that will be the focus of the delivery unit, it will be the focus of the programme for government, and it will be a focus both internally, but also learning from best practice elsewhere. We've had really productive conversations with the Cabinet Office, we've had productive conversations with international jurisdictions that have been effectively delivering priorities. So, how will you know that we've been effective? In four years' time, there will be a childcare offer delivered across Wales because of the effectiveness of the delivery unit, which has not happened under previous Governments. I know that's a high bar; I'm not minimising the challenges of delivering that, but, if you want one clear example of how we will deliver, that is one of the challenges I'm very clear on that the delivery unit will support delivery.

Thank you, Minister. Carrie Harper.

Diolch. Your portfolio obviously covers Government effectiveness and the constitution, and you've talked before about those areas being fundamentally connected, but it won't be immediately obvious to everyone exactly how those two things are connected. So, could you talk us through how you expect to improve the Government's effectiveness through those constitutional changes and what sorts of changes you think might enable that improvement?

I think what you have in constitutional matters is a number of areas where—. They've been described by others as jagged edges of devolution. If you look at issues around youth justice, for example, if you look at issues around natural resources, policing, the Crown estate, there are a number of areas where you could bring together the focus of the Government and those prospective devolved areas to deliver more effectively. Whether it is on energy or on safer communities or on supporting our young people who are at risk of falling into the youth justice system, there are a number of areas there where I think you could make some real progress, and areas where there isn't necessarily a roadblock from the UK Government either. Because these aren't areas of great contention. There are some areas where there are already existing Welsh youth justice considerations taking place. It's a matter of bringing that together with Welsh Government considerations. So, I think there are significant opportunities there to improve people's lives.

Do you have a follow-up, or—?

I'm quite happy with that.

Okay. Cai Parry-Jones.

In the Chamber earlier this year, you announced that Plaid Cymru would be supporting Reform's motion on the creation of a lobbyist register. You said:

'Being open and transparent is one of those values that our First Minister has set out for us as a Government.'

That's great to hear. Would you be able to give an update on the progress of the creation of the lobbyist register?

As I said in my responses in the Senedd, ultimately, those are things for the Senedd to progress, and we stand ready to support the Senedd in progressing the lobbying register. I made it clear, in my response to the debate put forward by Reform UK, that we were supportive and that transparency is something we value, and we stand ready to support the Senedd in developing that.

Great. Keeping to the topic of transparency, given your role is in Government effectiveness, I wonder: have you had a look at the transparency of Government expenditures?

Do you want to expand a little on what you mean, or shall I—? I mean, I can answer, but I might give a fuller answer if you could give a hint as to where you're going.

The public has access to a few databases of Government expenditure—for example, £25,000 plus, they're all listed there. Are you happy with how that data is presented to the public at the moment?

I think there is a level of transparency currently about financial data, and, of course, that transparency is assisted by the way that tools can help you interrogate data more effectively now. I'm keen to develop transparency in data. I'd be happy to hear suggestions for how that might be developed.

I should also say that it is part of my role to consider how effectively we spend our money as a Government in total, working with my colleague the Cabinet Minister for Finance, to ensure that Government expenditure does indeed align with our priorities and our deliveries. We've been having a number of conversations over the summer about that, a number of discussions. So, we are, hopefully, making progress. Not only are we open to discussions around public dashboards on the financial transparency, but I think, at a more fundamental level, it's making sure that, in these difficult financial circumstances, every single penny of Welsh Government money is spent wisely. Now, that is a difficult task for any Government to deliver, but that's what we're seeking to do.

You've mentioned dashboards and how to present the data. I've been a data analyst in the past and produced hundreds of different dashboards, and I can tell you they can't really do much if the data itself is impenetrable. I've got a sample here from the Welsh Government's expenditure over £25,000. Jo, do you mind just sharing that with Dafydd? I mean, I can give you an example of impenetrable data. If you look at row 1, column 1, do you know what profit centre XF73 is?

I would kindly suggest that it's the strategy and funding division on student loans. However, the point you make is well made. I mean, clearly, as a member of the public, exhibit A from the Member—XF73—doesn't particularly add much to understanding. So, I'm quite happy to look at how we present these things to make sure—. I mean, in truth, row 1 is from the strategy and funding division. It is related to student loans. It is a payment to the student loans company, and it is a payment of £362 million, which is clear. The first two columns do not necessarily add very much to my understanding and, therefore, I suspect, to the public's understanding.

Brilliant. I mean, as also a data engineer, I know that these codes—. There is an answer to these codes, but the thing is that they're locked behind a system that you have to laboriously request an FOI to get an answer to, and I think the public would be much happier if they just had quick and easy access to this, rather than having to look at a code, request what that code means, wait for 20 days, possibly get a response. So, that should be a really quick fix, I think, for this Government to make, and I'm happy to help out as a data engineer if you need it. But thank you, that's really good to hear. Thank you.

We're in danger of agreeing on everything, Chair. I'm not quite sure it's supposed to be like this. But diolch, Cai.

Anna Nicholl.

Thank you. So, I really welcome the Government's emphasis on outcomes and looking at impact, and being driven by making a real difference to people's lives, and the things that you've set out: being people-centred, the openness, transparency, collaborative ways of working and also being more experimental, willing to be more innovative. It's great that you've already set up the Cabinet Office, that that's been enhanced. I suppose my question/concern is: how do we make sure that those ways of working don't get trapped in just the Cabinet Office? I note you're saying that these are big priorities for Government in the way that you want to be driving those things, but in the sense that these then become ways of working right across the one Wales public service.  

Like I say, I'm hogging the limelight here and I'm sure Jo would like to come in too on this one. What I would say is, as part of the 100 days programme, one of the things we were doing was regularly monitoring progress each week on each of the actions identified. But, then, as Cabinet Office, working with the departments to make sure that there was that focus on delivery. So, hopefully, when the programme for government is published, I think that model is one we would seek to follow.

The ways of working are absolutely key, and picking up equally on exhibit A there, you can do things by commissions and pieces of paper, or you can actually go out and speak to people. And we've taken a very determined view within Welsh Government that we want to do it by talking to people to understand what's beneath it, because if part of our job is to join people up, we need to know where they're coming from. If part of our job is to spot barriers, then we need to find out what those are. And they don't always come through from a bit of paper, which is often about telling us why everything's right.

So, building the relationships is really key. Compared to the size of the civil service, we're a small unit, but I think investing in working with people shows our openness. We don't exist without the rest of the civil service. We are just there to support the Cabinet Minister in effectiveness and help our colleagues to respond to those kinds of issues. But the ways of working are absolutely key, and every contact we have within the civil service says how we want to operate, and hopefully reflects some of the ambitions of the one Wales public service as well.

Thank you. So, just following up on that as well, I completely agree on the importance of relationships, both, I suppose, from what you're saying, across the civil service, but then between the civil service and other public bodies, and beyond public bodies with communities and others. So, one point that you're pushing as a Government is collaboration. And, I'd suggest, kind of listening to—. There's a lot of evidence and expertise, but also people and communities and how you co-design. That hasn't traditionally been done hugely well by Governments, even though it's been tried a lot. So, I suppose, how would you—? I think it kind of links as well with your role around the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. But how do you look to change that, to really, genuinely, perhaps, be more humble in Government, listen to others, and bring in innovation like democratic innovation?

I think some of it requires a bit of—I'm really making a rod for my own back now—but some of it requires a little bravery from Government Ministers, who can set out a direction of travel. For example, some of the work that Nesta has done around test and learn, where you adopt an approach that builds on testing and learning as you go on, and suggesting that, as a Government, Governments of any hue don't have all of the answers. Those answers lie in people and in communities across the country, and working with them and building on that. But, to do that, it has to be meaningful and I think that this is where some of the problems have been in the past: it has to be meaningful. So, you have those conversations, but then you reflect. You keep a focus on those things that you are seeking to deliver and work out, 'Actually, this element of the plan isn't quite working as we expected. Why?' You work through it, methodically, carefully, understanding what those challenges are.

I'm an optimist about the way the public deal with politicians. I think if people know that you are seeking to make positive changes, you can bring them along with you and discuss with them and explain to them. I think there's a real challenge to improve public administration in this country. I think we could all make that contribution, whether it's in consulting with future generations or whether it's actually getting our spreadsheets to be more user-friendly. They're all part of the journey of better public administration in this country, which we all serve. 

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. You're responsible for reviewing Wales's COVID response. I understand that work has previously been undertaken in this area, including by the UK Government's inquiry, and the work undertaken by our predecessor committee in the sixth Senedd. What, as Cabinet Minister, do you intend to do in this area? Is the Welsh Government proposing a Wales-specific inquiry, and if so, when will that take place? 

Well, the first point to note is that there has been an enormous amount of work already undertaken to consider the lessons of COVID. You’ve referenced the COVID inquiry, you've referenced the work that was undertaken in the previous Senedd. My party, in the run-up to the election, pledged to undertake a short, sharp COVID review, as a Government, and we pledged that because there are at least two elements that we would seek assurance on: one is that the lessons of COVID have been properly learned, and secondly that those areas in the Welsh context that may not have received sufficient attention in the UK-wide inquiry may be considered by a review.

Take a moment just to reflect that COVID was an enormously challenging time for us all. We all have personal experiences of COVID, but also there are a number of families in Wales who have suffered bereavements, and suffered bereavements in some horrendous circumstances too. I've met with the COVID-bereaved families. I will be meeting again with them and a broader group of representatives. I see it as important to undertake that review in a full manner to ensure that we are learning the lessons and that we are building a better response, if and when such challenges face the Government in the future. So, that's what we're aiming to do. My intention would be to update the Senedd on this during the autumn term.

Andrew.

So, can I take from your remarks, Minister, that it will not be an inquiry that the Government will be commissioning? Because, in fairness, in opposition Plaid Cymru stood shoulder to shoulder with the demands and voted on several occasions, as the record will show, for such a Welsh-specific inquiry to come into being. I appreciate what your manifesto said—it did say ‘a review’—but the important thing about commissioning an inquiry is that, obviously, especially if you give it powers under the Inquiries Act 2005, witnesses are compelled to give evidence to that inquiry. A review might imply just simply trawling through, as you highlighted in your opening remarks, the many millions of papers and documents that exist to provide a record of that terrible period in everyone's lives, which we all went through in 2021. So, can you be crystal clear that it will not be an inquiry, it will be a review? 

I'm crystal clear that we need a full review. My officials are working through the issues around reviews and inquiries that you've highlighted. You will be well aware of how public inquiries can take a very considerable amount of time and can cost a very considerable amount of money. 

They can also, if constructive, be very succinct, very precise and very informative about what we need to do, and understand what was done in our name.

My officials are working through those issues and I will be updating the Senedd during this term, because fundamentally, as you've highlighted, the experiences of particularly the COVID-bereaved families—. We owe it to them to ensure that the lessons are properly learned. I want to make sure that we do that in an as effective and timely a way as possible.

Cabinet Minister, on 8 June, you laid before the Senedd the legislative consent memorandum on the Public Office (Accountability) Bill. The Business Committee referred this to this committee and the Legislation Committee for scrutiny. What's the Cabinet Minister’s understanding of the Bill’s timetable in the UK Parliament, the impact the timetable will have on the Senedd's consideration of the LCM, and the related reporting deadlines?

I set out, in response to the letter from the Legislation Committee, my understanding of the timetable, which is clearly in the hands of my colleagues in the UK Government. The Bill completed its passage through the Commons before summer recess and had its Second Reading in the Lords on 1 September. The dates are not yet confirmed for the remaining stages. My understanding is that UK Government's intention is that the Committee Stage will take place once Parliament returns from conference recess, with the Report Stage at the end of October, and if Members elsewhere engage in ping-pong, that will take place towards the end of October. As it stands, without clarity on the UK Parliament's timescales, we can't be definitive as to when we would be able to lay the LCM before the Senedd, but we will ensure that the Senedd is able to consider and vote upon a legislative consent motion before the Bill receives Royal Assent.

I think it is worth noting that my colleagues in the civil service have been working very closely with the UK Government on this Bill, to ensure that the provisions in the Bill appropriately reflect the devolved settlement and allow us to be fully and appropriately within the compass of the new Bill, which is, of course, a really important Bill to ensure public accountability.

Thank you. Do any Members have anything additional they wish to add? Alun Cox.

Anna.

I'll try and make it almost like a supplementary, but the point of trust in politics, democracy, et cetera, is key. In the manifesto, or the programme for government then, digital—and I can't remember if it's AI as well—you've said that you're going to make progress on this for more efficiency, or, well, for more effectiveness, then. So, it would be interesting to hear what your plans are there and what's the priority, but also, as well as tapping into the opportunities, acknowledging the risks that come with that, especially now, it feels like, with AI, that could further damage public trust in some ways. So, something on your priorities around digital and both tapping into the big opportunities and, I guess, being aware of the risks there.

I think they're subtly different questions. Some of the work that we've begun to do in the Cabinet Office to drive our priorities digitally and through making effective use of timely data is something that I'm keen on. We've been working on it; our chief statistician has been working on and around these issues. So, I think having access to timely data and being able to take action when there are problems is something we're clearly focused on.

I think, more broadly, then, turning to AI, I think it's a fascinating debate because I can see it on a daily basis—you can have a Teams meeting yn Gymraeg, it'll transcribe the Teams meeting yn Gymraeg and produce a bilingual note of the meeting pretty well five minutes after the meeting, which, given—. Some around this table will remember those days when we sat there writing, by hand, the minutes of meetings and you'd have them two weeks later, maybe, if you were lucky, once they were typed out. That makes me sound ancient, but that was the reality of life. So, there are great possibilities there in making use of technology and making use of technology to make our work as a Government more effective. I think the recent debates highlight that there are clearly downsides around AI, getting a better understanding of precisely what those downsides are, and how you tackle the global governance of AI is something probably beyond the public administration committee of the Senedd, but it's something I think that should concern each and every one of us, because if we get that right, the power of AI to improve human lives is significant. If we get it wrong, it could go quite disastrously wrong very quickly.

Can I just come in on that, because that debate is now raging? Obviously, the UK Government have made a strong point, as they have an AI Minister, they do, and I think it's actually the Member of Parliament for the Vale of Glamorgan. How is the Welsh Government engaging with that debate and discussion, because, again, regulation for this area is solely in Westminster's hands, but yet, the public services that will use a lot of AI—health, education, local government, social care—are all, here, governed from the Welsh Parliament, and so how is Welsh Government making sure that its voice is heard in that debate and that discussion?

I'm pleased to say that I've already had a discussion with the AI Minister. I think there is an advantage that he is the member for the Vale of Glamorgan, I suspect. But my approach to colleagues in the UK Government is to approach them co-operatively and collaboratively and to seek to work with them. Thus far, that approach has been reciprocated. So, as long as that continues I think that's good news for the Welsh Government and for relations between Governments more broadly. I'd expect further discussions with the AI Minister, because I'm aware that the UK Government is wrestling with precisely some of those challenging issues of the potential advantage of AI, but also the significant downsides around data centres and the environmental impacts. There is a whole range of some pretty challenging issues there on the other side. So, those discussions will continue and I look forward to working with the—

Are you the Minister for this particular portfolio area in the Welsh Government? How is it allocated within the ministerial portfolios?

I have responsibility for Government effectiveness and digital. The matters around AI and the economy sit with my colleague the Minister for the economy—. Sorry, for a moment, the exact title—. It's enterprise, connectivity and the economy, isn't it?

Would putting AI to make something like a Government public service like the NHS be in your role or not?

One of the things that we're seeking to do as an office, and I've met with the chief digital officer on several occasions already, is to drive digital innovation right across the public services in Wales. Therefore, if it is to do with a more effective NHS than the delivery of digital, then it's something that we'd be seeking to promote. Clearly, matters of health are matters for the health Cabinet Minister, matters of economy et cetera, but it is something that, centrally, we are seeking to promote and support.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, and I agree—I think we've had a very constructive session with you today and I also very much welcome your commitment to return regularly to this committee. I'm sure that we'll have further discussions. One final question from me.

I thought I'd got away with it. [Laughter.]

Oh, no. Can you give the committee one concrete example of something the Government currently does or a structure it currently funds that you believe should cease or be fundamentally changed?

I'll give you one simple example. I hope there'll be more in due course, but our public services boards and our regional partnership boards are asked to undertake assessments of their local communities, and what I've done is directed them to use the same data consistently in those analyses. Now, it's a simple example, but it was one of those examples where you have multiple geographies presenting analyses of what was going on in a local area over each other, which didn't seem to have much common sense behind it to me. So, that's one example, but I hope there will be more.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister.

[Inaudible.]—reason for that. I assume they've got different goals and strategies, and so need different data.

Yes, and this is where it always gets interesting. They're based on different statutory bases and, therefore, I could not compel them. But I could write to them and ask them to do this, and they've responded positively to that. I think it comes back to—. Government has the powers to do things, but there is something too about the Government as a convening authority that can, hopefully, bring some light and common sense to these discussions.

Is there not a risk that that's going to slow things down, because a certain body might say, 'We really need to collect this data? Great, let's go for it, because we need some analysis. Oh, hang on, let's not do it yet because we need to ring up 12 other bodies to say we're going to collect this data, so they will need to collect it as well'?

No, it will be done more effciently.

The Minister has spoken.

Well, no—[Laughter.] I am pretty confident on that one. With some of the other answers, there's much work ongoing, as we've illustrated. But, on that one, yes.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister.

Thank you very much.

Hopefully, you'll be able to get up to Cathays for your meeting.

The Cabinet, yes, indeed. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, all, very much.

For item 4, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting and for item 1 during the meeting on Monday 21 September. Are the Members content? Yes, everyone is content. We will now proceed in private.