National Assembly for Wales

Good morning. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee meeting. We have apologies from Mick Antoniw. Otherwise, all Members are present. Are there any declarations of interest? I see none.

Therefore, we'll go straight into our final scrutiny sessions with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip before the Senedd stands down for the election. Thank you very much indeed, Cabinet Secretary, for your extensive written evidence in relation to both subjects that we're discussing today. Initially, Cabinet Secretary, I wondered if we could just start by looking at the inquiry we've been doing into healthy and affordable food. Julie Morgan is going to start off the questions.

Bore da. As you know, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales has called for a national food resilience plan for Wales to build on the existing strategic approach. What do you think of this proposal? Do you think it would result in a more joined-up approach?

Thank you very much for that question. Keith Smyton is here from the office of the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, because this is very much cross-Government. In fact, Huw Irranca-Davies could be sitting here with me as well in terms of the ways in which we've sought to work together in terms of my responsibility particularly for tackling food poverty and supporting the local food partnerships, and also being very engaged in the community food strategy.

The strategic framework for food policy is communicated through the 'Food Matters: Wales' document, which is very much under Huw Irranca-Davies's responsibility. Obviously, that includes things like the food and drink strategy. For me, particularly looking at the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the child poverty strategy is very relevant to this as well, and I made sure that 'think community' was very much influencing the development of the community food strategy.

I will turn to Keith, because he's very much embedded in these considerations, I know, in terms of understanding that call for a national food resilience plan. But also to say what's vitally important is that we make those strategic approaches work across Government to deliver the objectives. So, there's no lack of vision, there's lots of cross-Government working, but we just need to make sure that we implement the commitments that we've got. Can I bring Keith in to elaborate a bit more on that?

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. We recognise the recommendations—we work closely with the future generations commissioner—and the wider calls from stakeholders for a national-level food resilience plan. On the different proposals, we have the food resilience plan. Our current vision has been designed to increase resilience right across the board, but it doesn't go into resilience the way it's set out by the future generations commissioner.

A broader food strategy is what's being asked for. We recognise that too. We're working with stakeholders across the board, listening and consulting with them, to see what the next steps would be. We've also looked at the Good Food Nation-style approach of how that fits in, et cetera. But in Wales, the challenge is not the lack of vision that we have, or the cross-Government alignment; it's ensuring that our existing commitments are delivered in practice and that this transcends into outcomes for people and communities in Wales.

At the moment, we've set up a wide, joined-up, wholesale system approach across existing policies, and that comes under the food forum. It brings all existing food policy areas together. And as the Cabinet Secretary has said, the 'Food Matters: Wales' document is a signature document, it brings all those areas together that we can all consult on around one table. That's where we are at the moment.

So, what the future generations commissioner is asking for, you are considering and it's on a longer term basis.

The current strategy that we have was always going to complete around the beginning of 2026, and then with the changing, moving parts in Government, we've been quietly consulting, talking to stakeholders et cetera. We know the areas, et cetera, and it's just how all of these fit together and what's the strategic fit overall to join up the areas.

It's useful having that engagement of the future generations commissioner in these discussions as part of the well-being of future generations Act. But I think just to say in terms of cross-Government working, obviously, it's ministerial, but also, there's a food policy forum, so it's vital that Claire is there in terms of tackling food poverty. Equally, we need to look at this in terms of the outcomes of the local food partnerships.

Keith also mentioned the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Act 2022, and I wondered what views you had about that, whether legislation is something that is beneficial.

You've touched on this, haven't you, Keith. My understanding is that—. Obviously, that's primary legislation. It's very interesting, and we work closely with Scotland to see how that's being implemented. But I think, at this point in time, we are talking about making sure we're implementing what we've got in terms of strategic vision. I think that's accepted by the stakeholders. I think you said, Keith, that you're constantly talking to the stakeholders about this.

Can I just say also that we really welcome your inquiry into food matters, absolutely? I'm sure that, from the evidence that you've got, there will be useful learning that will feed into all these considerations about the future. But, as we are at the moment, I think it is about making sure that we do deliver on the strategies that we've got in place, and, particularly for me, the community food strategy, because that's dealing with tackling inequalities, health inequalities, and making sure that we celebrate food in Wales.

Just in terms of looking at some of the evidence, the FareShare evidence is great, because it says we should be not just seeing this as tackling food poverty, but the way forward is to see that food is a way of breaking down barriers, including people, including all those partners who make food justice important in Wales, including the growers, as well as those who need to overcome debt and food poverty. So, for me, delivering our community food strategy is crucially important.

Thank you.

Sioned. 

In terms of our responsibilities in terms of tackling health inequalities and through health impact assessments, we're not going to be waiting to see and review what the impacts of policies are going to be on delivering on that. It's interesting; you will have seen in the evidence that I gave that we've worked—. Well, in fact, following questions from the committee, a joint letter from myself and Huw Irranca-Davies was sent on 20 January. The fact is that one of the key objectives, for example, for our local food partnerships is to give communities a voice in shaping food systems that meet their needs and ensuring healthier food is accessible and affordable.

I think that's doing it in action; that's actually tackling health inequalities in action. I think what's happening through our local food partnership is truly transformational. I think it's really interesting that that we go on to look at, for example, setting a target to increase public sector procurement of Welsh food by 50 per cent by 2030, strengthening local supply chains. We really are getting to grips with tackling health inequalities, because yes, we need to look at this in a longer term strategy in terms of tackling food poverty, and I think that's the local food partnerships.

I was absolutely determined when we were in a really difficult budget situation a year or so ago that we had to protect these food partnerships, because they are actually doing the prevention and the intervention to make food and food justice a key part of responsibilities of our local authorities. We can't do this on our own; we need our stakeholders, our local government, our growers and farmers, as well as our community groups.

We've put £30 million into emergency food funding over the last five or six years to help those struggling with the cost of food—not just foodbanks, food pantries and co‑ops, but this is now developing, as a result of the food partnerships, into cooking and nutrition classes, supporting community growing projects. That is helping us to tackle food poverty with a longer term, sustainable vision.

But I would say I think there are opportunities with the Marmot nation as well. We're going beyond even my responsibilities. I think Marmot is a real opportunity to help us tackle health inequalities in that more holistic way.

It's a big task, but I have to say that the local food partnerships have only been going since April last year, and I think we've seen quite a lot of evidence that there have been a lot of local initiatives that are beginning to provide ways in which people can access healthy, affordable food, but also learn about what healthy food looks like.

One of the things that we discovered when we went to north Wales was that both the churches we visited were funded by the community facilities programme, which has obviously been going a lot longer than this. They were still places of worship, but also busy community centres, which were distributing food, providing places for people to meet, and a very important aspect of local community cohesion. I wondered, given the £72 million you spent on 530 projects, what sense the Welsh Government has of how well connected communities are and where the gaps are.

You've had evidence about the local food partnerships. I mentioned Marmot; I think actually what's important is that I've seen Public Health Wales really engaged in this, local health boards, local authorities. I've met not just the co‑ordinators, who I fund through my budget, of the local food partnerships, but also the cabinet members at local authority level. And I have to say that there is huge enthusiasm. It's a real partnership between national, local and regional partners to tackle food poverty and strengthen local food systems. That's partly a key goal of this, to strengthen local food systems. Claire was just pointing out that the local food partnerships started back in 2022—

I beg your pardon. Okay. You can see why I'm confused, because it's the community food strategy that started in—

That's right. But it is interesting, there are so many examples of what is happening and what is good that's happening with the food partnership co-ordinators meeting up, doing joint schemes, working with the public services boards, and also those facilitators, a lot of them in the third sector, including places of worship. So, the community facilities programme is the bedrock in terms of capital funding, isn't it, to provide capital for the centres where local food partnerships are operating. But I think it's about ensuring that healthier food is accessible and affordable. And you will, I'm sure, in your visits and evidence, have seen that things are changing. People want to move from just going to a foodbank to more community meals, accessing fresh food. I think that the FareShare evidence you've got demonstrates the good feedback that's come from initiatives that now are coming from the community. Certainly, I recall that we had a manifesto meeting, launch, from the Trussell Trust here and how pleased they were that we were making all of the connections between foodbanks, and I asked them—

Okay. I'm going to interrupt you, Cabinet Secretary, because we're running out of time, and I wanted to know, because I'm genuinely interested to know, whether the Government's done any mapping of where the gaps are, because I was told about a very large church in Rhyl, obviously a place of considerable need, that was not being used as a community venue, which was disappointing. But it's down to the individuals who worship and are part of that community.

Well, I think that that has to be done at a local level. We've given them the funding to co-ordinate. Just one final thing I would say is that they're learning from each other; there's no question. But you have to have capacity in order to be able to take off with an initiative. So, crucial to getting community facilities programme funding is that you have to have a group of people who want to take that initiative. 

Okay. Before I pass on to Altaf, what we also saw on the visit that I and one of the clerks did was the core role of primary schools to educate not just their own pupils, but also the families of those pupils. And obviously Cadoxton, in your constituency, Cabinet Secretary, is sector leading in this regard. There's fantastic work going on. When we went to Ebbw Vale, we had a useful insight into the journey that they still need to travel, but they're getting support from a new food partnership. And that's what needs to happen all over Wales, because with six out of 10 households not cooking from scratch, you can see the size of the problem. So, I really am quite keen to—. It was useful to hear you say that local authorities and the lead members for this subject are fully engaged, because we have to rely on them, I assume, to ensure that all schools are taking this seriously, which is not the case at the moment. 

Thank you for that. Yes, I'm very proud of Big Bocs Bwyd, which started in Cadoxton Primary School. I have to pay tribute to the headteacher, Janet Hayward, who I'm sure you will have met—

We've interviewed her.

—who initiated this. And I think that one of her key points was to ensure that this was about food literacy and the links to the curriculum, and also that it became part of parental and home-school engagement. I think there's another connection with education—two connections with education I'd make. One is that the further funding that's been put into home-school liaison has really also engaged with this. At Cadoxton and Big Bocs Bwyd, you see parents coming in and engaging with cooking as well as accessing fresh food from FareShare, and children also engaging through the curriculum. So, the core role of primary schools is linked to education.

I also would say that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, if she was here, would want to be talking as well about the schools' poverty initiatives, which have also focused on food. So, I think you will have seen primary schools leading the way. I mean, I'm interested, and you're probably aware, when you went to north Wales, I don't know if you saw the wonky carrot project in Conwy. There is so much innovation going on. It's local, sustainable solutions, though. We absolutely helped Big Bocs Bwyd in its early days of development, and of course now it's spreading across Wales.

Can I just quickly mention the link again to child poverty, because we've funded the child poverty innovation and supporting communities grant? That has actually enabled us to look at ways in which we can link tackling child poverty to not just primary schools, but to communities as well. Also, Welsh Veg in Schools, I think that's something that's mentioned in my letter to you.

Yes.

Food and fun—I mean, Julie did the work on food and fun. That, in the school holidays, is crucially important in primary schools.

Yes. That's obviously very successful, but it only encompasses certain schools. But anyway, I'd love to speak about this for another half an hour, but I'll pass on to Altaf. Julie Morgan, you wanted to come in. Jane—I'm sorry, Jane. Go ahead, Jane.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. Of course, this is where it's a truly cross-Government issue, and it is for planning. This is certainly something—. I mean, I don't know, Keith, whether you've got anything more to add in terms of acknowledgement of that issue and real challenge. Claire. Sorry, Claire. Which one? Claire, do you want to say something?

Certainly, just to add that I know that in the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, there's a section there about that sense of the regulatory levers, regulatory impact, such as planning decisions and others on food choices. So, I know that it's something that we as a Government have been looking at.

I question how much impact it's having on particular local authorities. Blaenau Gwent, one of the councillors said that she was so frustrated that we were still having—and I've also heard the local Member talk about that—yet another one of these junk-food places being set up, and no resistance by the local authority. So, I don't know what role Government thinks it has in reminding local authorities of their public health duty.

Well, I think the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan is a route to that. So, obviously, you've had that evidence, which is really useful, but again it goes back to us influencing our local health boards, our local authorities, and our local partnership co-ordinators, and supporting them. Because, yes, this is a planning block, isn't it? So, thank you for raising that, and we will obviously want to test this more.

I don't know if you took evidence from Welsh Local Government Association, but this is really a local government issue, as well as a Welsh Government issue that we need to look at.

We didn't, but we could write to them.

That's a really important point, because we do want to—. The 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan is up until 2027. I mean, Keith, did you have anything to add?

We don't really work on that side of the plan.

Good. Right.

We'll write to them; we know where to go. Jane Dodds wanted to come back in. Briefly.

Yes. Diolch yn fawr.  It clearly is a national issue too. 

We'll follow that up. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. Good morning, Cabinet Secretary. My questions are regarding the longer term sustainable approaches to tackling food poverty. Has the Welsh Government found a good balance between giving out immediate food aid and stopping food poverty before it starts?

Thank you. I mean, that does go back to, perhaps, earlier points that I've made about the funding that we've put into directly tackling food poverty. I think it's important to say that funding goes to local authorities via the Welsh Local Government Association. So, it's up to the local authority and the food partnerships to decide which projects are funded, not the Welsh Government. Again, it's ownership at local level and, increasingly, understanding that we need to look at these longer term sustainable funding solutions. 

I mentioned the Trussell Trust earlier on, who are the major provider of foodbanks. They are keen to go out of existence, aren't they? That's one of their big things. They want to—. But the fact that they're also—.

One point that hasn't been made in terms of food issues is that, going to a foodbank now, you are very likely to be introduced to advice givers, signposting, so that people can move out of that situation where they have to turn to a foodbank, remembering that many people who go to foodbanks are working as well. So, there are now new developments also going on through food pantries, through people paying something towards the provision of food—FareShare particularly—and also into the community meals arena that's developing, which I'm sure that you've seen something of. Yes, we still need the foodbanks as they are. They're referrals, of course, but they're doing much more than that in terms of trying to help people move out of needing a foodbank into employability, work, and also getting the benefits that they're entitled to.

Okay. We need to get much swifter on our questions and our answers. Jane Dodds, and then I'll come back to you, Altaf.

Yes, and the Trussell Trust, as we've said, want to be out of business. They want people to be able to be sustained without turning to foodbanks. It does make a difference to people who are struggling, and it can be for a short period of time—a change of circumstances, job-life circumstances as well. But I think the connections with organisations we haven't mentioned so far that we support, like Food Sense Wales, which has an all-Wales brief, and the local food partnerships, are important. We are seeing that kind of move from foodbanks to food pantries to community meals.

Very good. Altaf.

Thank you very much. My last question is: how is the Welsh Government helping local communities get fresh, affordable food onto everyone's plate? I think you answered those, but please repeat.

Are you familiar with Well-Fed, because that's certainly what they're doing?

Yes, I think both Huw Irranca-Davies and I visited FareShare recently. We fund them. I think the evidence that you've got on FareShare speaks for itself, doesn't it, in terms of how they are enabling people to access fresh food. I think one of the great things there is their survey showing our food—and that's the fresh food—makes a difference to the health and well-being and nutrition of the clients of charities and community groups that they support, and the feedback and the value, the fact that people have proper meals, that they can have fresh food. But also, can we just make that connection back to the fact that, actually, through FareShare and through the funding and local food partnerships, we've now got cookery classes, pop-up kitchens, cookery training, and I think it speaks for itself, that evidence from FareShare. We fund them, we support them.

It's also the fact that those local food partnerships—and I'm sure you saw some really interesting examples—are embedding public health learning and understanding. Veg box schemes—I think in Ebbw Vale they've got that voucher to go to a local greengrocer. In Food Sense Wales, Food Cardiff have got their £10 voucher as well for organic food. There actually is so much innovation going on as we speak, and these food partnerships are linking to our national strategy. But we are saying it is up to our local providers to develop those initiatives and then learn from each other, and some local food co-ordinators and initiatives are actually working together, for example on sourcing of food into schools. You've probably had those examples coming through.

Thank you. Sioned Williams. 

Well, I think I've probably answered that question in the sense that the money we provide goes to local authorities. We don't have criteria or eligibility. It is tackling food poverty, but it's basically up to the WLGA and local authorities to decide how they spend that money. So, I'm not sure what these shiny new projects—

Okay. We, obviously, are running out of time. Evaluation: what role does the Welsh Government play in evaluating the money they're putting into local authorities, and which is actually having the most impact?

I will bring Claire in here, but I do think you know we are talking about the providers here, and the providers from local government are Trussell Trust, the foodbanks and some of those local initiatives that we've been talking about. But in terms of evaluating the impact of our funding—

Yes, it is something that we put into local food partnerships and into local community food aid, which is not the entirety of that support. We monitor against the four objectives of the partnerships around joined-up thinking, food system co-ordination and action, food resilience and more diverse local food systems. So, we map against those and they're monitored quarterly for action against those objectives, and we gather that information and work on it and, as the Cabinet Secretary says, ensure that we learn from that, but also that we share it between them so they can learn from each other.

Is there anything you could send us on that from the latest data that you've gathered?

I would have thought so, yes. 

Yes, I'd have thought so. I hope you'll see that the letter I wrote to you on 20 January does cover quite a few of these points.

We've got that, the one you wrote jointly with Huw Irranca. It's just that some data would be very useful to be able to track the impact.

We, obviously, are looking at the impact of our objectives, with the community food partnerships. Local government, as you know, when they get the funding, they don't like—. I mean, we try and give them as much leeway as possible to respond to local needs rather than ring-fencing money in terms of eligibility. So, I think it has to be a partnership approach with local—. If we impose, you know, 'We need so much money on this part of the delivery'—. Those local food partnerships have got the power to spend that money and to influence the spend. And I think, from our understanding—we can give you more evidence of that, some examples—they actually are now adjusting and moving towards that more longer term preventative approach. I was very interested, I went to visit the foodbank just up the road in Dusty Forge, and they've stopped actually having a foodbank—it was more of a pantry where people went and paid money—and they now concentrate on having a community meal. These changes are happening because the local people have said, 'We'd rather come together for a local meal'.

That would be a question for local government, because we still do need to provide that emergency support, there's no question about it, through local government, to foodbanks. But I think it does vary across Wales; we can't say that one size fits all. And I think enabling the local food partnerships to increasingly be the drivers of what happens with the funding is a really useful message from today, to make sure that, no, there aren't barriers in the way of those food partnerships as a result of our funding and that they can move into those innovative—. What we don't want to do is be in a position where we're reducing funding at a time when still there is that need for a foodbank, an emergency foodbank, which, as I said in an answer to Altaf, has got that added benefit of opening the doors to lots of other initiatives. But, as I said, the points in the evidence that are coming up are really helpful for us, just to see where we need to guide our local food partnerships.

Thank you. We're going to take a short break. Thank you very much for that session with your officials, Mr Smyton and Ms Germain. We're now just having a short, private break so that we can get different officials in.

Do you want us to leave?

No, it's fine.

We're now going to move into into general scrutiny of the Cabinet Secretary's quite extensive portfolio, and, therefore, I wondered if your officials could introduce themselves very briefly, starting with Mr Jones. 

Yes, thank you. Ian Jones, I'm deputy director for equality, poverty and children's evidence and support division. 

Andrew Charles, deputy director for cohesive communities division. 

Bore da. Amelia John, director of communities and social justice. 

Claire Germain, deputy director for tackling poverty.

Mike Connolly, deputy director for the community safety division. 

And online, I believe we've got Lorna Hall, deputy director for equality and human rights. 

And also Riaz Hassan, head of the ARWAP team.

I beg your pardon. I'm so sorry—it's because he's not on my screen. Thank you. Altaf Hussain, you were going to start the questions off. 

Thank you, Chair. The question is regarding criminal justice and women's experiences in the criminal justice system. The Welsh Government has implemented only five of the 18 recommendations from the committee's report. What assessment has been made of why the remaining recommendations have not been delivered?

Thank you very much, Altaf. I know, in my evidence paper, in the annex, I have responded to give an update on all of the committee reports, and the women's experiences in the criminal justice system is really important. I did say in my evidence report that, yes, we've got five delivered, and also the other recommendations partially delivered; they're ongoing. But one point I would make, in terms of questions on this issue, which is really important, is that we've been working mostly, in terms of our powers, on our women's justice blueprint, making sure that that is delivered across Wales.

But there have been a lot of changes since 2023, with the general election in 2024 and the changes in justice policy, and making sure that we are adjusting and influencing that has been a key priority. But I would say that our women's justice board for Wales, for example, which is active, is now meeting regularly, in terms of the women's justice board, with the UK Government, chaired by Lord Timpson, who I know has given evidence here. And we continue to ensure that we look to those diversionary policies that are making such a difference to keep women out of custody, out of the criminal justice system. That's key, as well as, obviously, continuing to press for our residential women's centre, for which we've got all the plans in place. I was very pleased to meet with Lord James Timpson last week, where I talked to him about the residential women's centre, I talked to him about the intensive supervision court as well, and asked for progress on both those key issues in terms of ensuring that we did respond not just to your report but to our commitments to women's justice.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Now, despite the Welsh Government's commitments to reduce the number of women entering or returning to custody, the evidence shows the number continues to rise. Does the Welsh Government understand what is driving this trend, and what assessment has been made of why current policies are not resulting in improving outcomes for women?

Well, I would like to comment at this point that we very much value the work that's been done by Dr Rob Jones, and the fact that we have been working very closely with him, looking at and working with him to respond to the fact files he's produced, which actually highlighted—the last fact file, of course, which was last November—the issue of the increasing number of women prisoners in England and Wales. I met with Rob Jones and HM Prison and Probation Service, with Ian Barrow from HMPPS, who is our lead official from HMPPS, and with Ministry of Justice responsibilities, and we actually then moved to having a round-table, because I felt that we needed to look at the fact file and we needed to look at the issues.

I've mentioned the women's justice programme and, of course, it's a blueprint that has been devolved and non-devolved—it's been Welsh Government with UK Government over the period of time. It's about diversion schemes for vulnerable women across all the four police forces in Wales, and also, crucially, engaging with magistrates, sentencers, other key court professionals, meeting with probation, building confidence in community-based sentencing options. And we had all of those represented, including the third sector, at the round‑table that we held earlier on this year. I'm hoping that we can do a report of that round-table. But, again, I raised all these issues with Lord Timpson only last Wednesday.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. In your written response, which confirms ongoing support for the residential women's centre in Swansea and continued engagement with UK Government Ministers, but it does not set out a timeline for when this centre is expected to open. In the absence of a confirmed opening date, how can devolved services be used to strengthen community-based alternatives to custody? What scope is there to enhance devolved provision to mitigate these limitations?

Thank you for that question. The residential women's centre, as I think I've already said, was on my agenda on Wednesday when I met with Lord Timpson, and I'm continually pressing for an update on this, as you are, and I've had questions in the Senedd, which I welcome, because I'm very frustrated about the lack of progress with the residential women's centre. We've got a building; we've got planning permission. The centre is a key objective for the Welsh Government, but it also fits into the UK Government's new approach in terms of reducing—. And I raised this with James Timpson, the damage of short-term sentences, the damage to women in terms of custodial sentences that actually separate them from their children. The centre will allow women to stay closer to home, maintain crucial family ties and provide a therapeutic environment and also help to deal with some trauma-informed experiences that women may have experienced. The all-Wales women in justice board—I've mentioned that—through the women in justice partners, are also very supportive of this. So, I'm grateful for the question, because, again, as I said, I want answers before the end of the sixth Senedd.

Well, good luck on that. 

Thank you, Chair. 

Sioned Williams. 

Well, I pressed him on the point, the timing. I also pressed him in terms of are there any issues that we can help to resolve in terms of management of the centre. He did refer to the centre—and I'm sure he perhaps did when he came to give evidence to this committee—in Southampton, the Hope Centre, and I have arranged for a visit to the Hope Centre, because we need to see the difference that's made by it, by having a residential women's centre. That's not a centre that was commissioned by the Government; it's an independent initiative. I can only say that I've pressed for an answer, I've asked the question of why is there delay, I've asked for it to be opened by the end of this Senedd, or at least to have a timeline for opening.

One of the things I haven't mentioned that has been important since the change of government at a UK Government level is that, actually, we have broken through some barriers in terms of data, access to disaggregated data. And I think that it is important to put on record today that that has made a difference, and it actually made a difference to Dr Jones when he did his factfile in November. I think I've probably mentioned that in terms of my evidence to you already, but, as I said, I've met with Lord Timpson, I've put down what we expect here in Wales, and I'm very grateful for the committee's support on this.

Well, that he's coming back to me as soon as possible on the way forward.

Right. Altaf, have you finished?

Yes. Thank you very much.

Very good. Jane Dodds.

A timeline is what we need, in the next few weeks, of when the centre will open. It's actually already costing money. It's costing money to the UK Government, so it's absolutely in their interest. I'll just make the quick point again, Chair, that the UK Government is exploring options, alternatives to custody, for women in the criminal justice system. As Sioned has said, women in Wales have to go to HMP Eastwood Park or HMP Styal. We have put in what we can. We fund a Visiting Mum service. We support women at Eastwood Park. But we know that the residential women's centre is the way forward. So, again, this committee, and this appearance today, gives me more strength to my elbow in terms of going straight back to Lord Timpson saying there's a lot of concern and interest in when are you going to get this, begin to get the answer to this. I hope it will be—. I mean, I know Mike is here. I don't think we've got time to say any more. I've said enough. But let's just take it that my frustration was made very clear last Wednesday with Lord Timpson.

Okay. Very good. I'm sure the whole committee would absolutely back you in that frustration. Jane Dodds, would you like to move on to other matters?

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. I did give quite an extensive response in my evidence to the committee on this, on the speech, language and communication needs, particularly in the youth justice system. I think what's important now is that officials—and, of course, this is not in my portfolio, but very much in terms of my engagement with colleagues in the Welsh Government—are exploring options to establish minimum standards and promote best practice so that all youth justice services consistently identify speech, language and communication needs and levels of support.

I think you know, and I've made it very clear, that this is something that we've looked at not just in terms of youth justice, but also looking at it from early years as well, because that has a huge impact on future prospects for children and it's very much linked to the curriculum as well and in terms of initiatives such as Talk With Me and the Curriculum for Wales, as I said in my evidence. But it is something where, of course, this is about very much a preventative approach, but we have reduced the numbers of adults and children waiting in terms of access to NHS speech and language therapy.

Well, thank you, Jane. Of course, just looking at the numbers, there are 800 registered speech and language therapists in Wales. It is difficult there in terms of prioritising their role. I've mentioned early years, Flying Start—crucially important. And we're trying to reduce waiting times for speech and language therapies. I've said there is a reduction in terms of the numbers waiting, particularly for adults and children. But I think this is where—. When I've met with speech and language therapists working in the youth justice system, it's something that is specialist but is very rewarding, because you're working with young people in a preventative, diversionary way. We can't mandate embedding a speech and language therapist into youth justice teams, but some of them are—the youth justice services are funding speech and language therapists. So, I think your question about trying to get more numbers into training, it's really about trying to ensure that there are these openings for them to work, particularly in relation to youth justice, as well as early years.

There are some important training opportunities like The Box, which is college of speech and language therapist training to identify communication issues with young people. We work closely also with the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales in terms of addressing this issue.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Okay. Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much. I was going to ask about prison, probation and policing. So, the first question I was going to ask was about probation, and so I wondered if the memorandum of understanding has been finalised. And what are its actual implications?

That was also on my agenda with Lord Timpson last week, when I met him, the MOU for probation. Because I visited greater Manchester, when we saw that this was a route-map, I would say, a route, to devolution of probation in Wales, and we felt the MOU approach was really tried and tested, and it is about local control, local delivery and local flexibility. So, we're very keen to press this. Now, what we have done is we've got the Wales Centre for Public Policy to look at some research on how we could craft that MOU. That's just recently been published. I think one good point is that HMPPS has seconded someone to work with us on crafting the MOU. She's been in post for quite a few weeks now, and I've met with her and justice unions, who are very supportive of this first step, and also the Wales probation development group. So, I anticipate the work is going to proceed at pace. Again, I've said I'd like to see this before the end of this sixth Senedd. That's what I'm aiming for.

And you see this as a first step towards the eventual delegation of budgets and management and the wider policy.

Well, I see this as us taking control, in the way that greater Manchester has, of the delivery of probation services, in partnership with local government in Wales. I think we've just got to look at every step that we can take. I feel that we've got—. We've always said we've got to take it step by step, and the commitment from the UK Government was to explore the devolution of youth justice and probation. But I think we've given a pathway to this, and I hope we'll see the outcome of what this will mean, as I said, before the end of this sixth Senedd.

Sioned Williams.

That's a really important point. It is a non-statutory agreement. I've seen the MOU that was signed between Greater Manchester and the Ministry of Justice, and the same question could be asked of Greater Manchester and the Deputy Mayor, Kate Green, who takes the lead. But the delivery is the obvious answer to that. The delivery has improved of probation services in Greater Manchester, and that's what we would anticipate. This is power for a purpose, after all. This is about actually giving us all the devolved services relevant to probation.

The Wales probation development group consists of people who have been in the service, who want to create a Welsh probation service that reflects what they feel are the principles of a good probation service, and academically they're engaged as well as professionally. So, I think it has to be a step that we grasp, take it forward and I think it'll deliver the goods. Obviously that comes through inspection, for example, in terms of one way of looking at it, but on outcomes for those who receive the services, certainly the evaluation in Manchester has shown the difference. So, I would see that in Wales too.

The MOU provides the basis of that agreement in terms of delivery. As I said, we've got a secondee from the UK Government, from HM Prison and Probation Service, who is working—. Her job is to craft this MOU. I wish I could be here to see that MOU come into force, what we will get. I know from the work that she's doing—. We haven't got much time, Mike, but if you wanted to just reassure the committee that this is based on good evidence from Greater Manchester and the commitment from the UK Government to make this work. We wouldn't have had a secondment if they didn't want it to come to Wales.

Yes, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I can just say that at an official's working level it is progressing really well in terms of working through the MOU and the detail of the MOU. As the Cabinet Secretary said, looking at what's happening in Greater Manchester, and the practice there, is really encouraging too. In response to the question, that's the level of detail that we're now working through with partners to understand the ability to raise concerns and issues, so we expect more information shortly. 

Diolch.

Very good. Did you have any further questions?

[Inaudible.]—which are the committee's safety concerns about the expansion of Parc prison. I believe you have raised this with the UK Government. Do you feel that the UK Government would be able to respond to this and is there a possibility of stopping this expansion while these safety issues are considered? 

Thank you for that question. This was also on the agenda for my meeting with Lord Timpson last week. I took the opportunity to raise the committee's concerns because obviously I knew you'd had that look at this, and particularly with the work that Dr Rob Jones had done. So, I sought an update on what was happening in terms of the expansion and emphasised that this has been raised regularly in the Senedd, and not just with the committee as well. It was a constructive discussion. It is out of our powers, obviously, in terms of any more influence except to raise these issues at inter-governmental level. 

I said that any expansion must be accompanied by safeguards that improve safety outcomes, and I also made the point that we have devolved responsibility for education and health and, of course, resettlement as well, and that we had to make sure that we have the funding to enable us to meet the additional needs if the expansion goes ahead.

I was reassured that there'd been an interim review of HMP Parc in January this year, because I said, 'Look, the concerns about HMP Parc have been consistent over the in-flow of drugs, et cetera', and the interim review in January did confirm that progress was being made stopping the in-flow of drugs. I asked, for example, about the windows. As people will know, this is something that has been an issue in terms of the changes to stop drugs coming into Parc.

But I made it absolutely clear that we were concerned about it, the committee's been concerned about it, and we have to make sure that we get the support for health, social care and education in terms of the support that, with an expansion, that prison would need.

Thank you. I've got one last question, if that's okay. The police and crime commissioners will be abolished by 2028 and, obviously, there'll be a new system. Have you been able to have any discussions yet about what that new system might be and what models are being looked at in Wales?

There have been extensive discussions since the announcement, and obviously questions to me in the Senedd about this, and also extensive discussions with the PCCs themselves. And, in fact, there are meetings ongoing, as we speak, and we have a policing partnership board on Thursday. My discussions have been with the policing Minister. And if I could just say that we have policy principles that we've agreed in terms of the way forward, but I've made it clear that we must safeguard the integrity of devolved systems and frameworks, which provide the key elements of policing in Wales, and that includes local government. Local government has been very involved in the discussions as well, and we have been clear, as Welsh Ministers, that new governance arrangements should be a devolutionary process. Because we are in a different situation from England and we need to ensure that what comes out of this with the police reform White Paper is that we have something that, in Wales, shows the role that Welsh Government and local government can play in terms of democratic accountability, including a proper role for Welsh Ministers, for the Senedd and local authorities. So, I think this will influence not just the next Government, but also the next Senedd in terms of committees, as well as ministerial posts, et cetera.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you. I want to move us on to questions about anti-racist Wales, but I just want to start with the entrenched racial disproportionality that is endemic in the criminal justice system, as highlighted by Rob Jones. I just wondered if there's anything that we can do about this, given that we do not, at the moment, have jurisdiction over criminal justice and this broken system, in my view.

Well, we were very pleased and engaged with the criminal justice partners when they developed the 'Criminal Justice Anti-Racism Action Plan for Wales'. It's jointly led by criminal justice partners, not devolved, alongside and including the Welsh Government. Also, we worked with justice partners including policing in Wales, HM Courts and Tribunals Service and HMPPS when they developed this. I think the plan does show what we can achieve when we work together to tackle racism, but it's embedded racism. Criminal justice isn't devolved, so we've got to use our influence and our relationships and shared goals with partners to tackle racism, and also realise an anti-racist criminal justice system in Wales. Can I say, again, that I acknowledge the work that Rob Jones has done in terms of his fact file in terms of disproportionality? We do have a justice chapter in our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and that came from the fact that it was co-produced with black, Asian and minority ethnic people who wanted that justice system in the plan.

Thank you. Just moving on to tackling racism more generally, your refreshed plan was published just over a year ago, which you describe as having strong foundations for systemic change. As we approach four years since the publication of the plan, what tangible impact do you think it's had on the lives of people from ethnic minority backgrounds?

Well, delivery of this plan has to be a cross-Government commitment. It was refreshed, as you say, in November 2024, and that was about ensuring that the goals and actions in the plan make a measurable and tangible impact on the lives of ethnic minority people. I think that there are some important developments that I could just very quickly reference. In terms of leadership, statistics for public appointments show a positive trend: 15 per cent of applicants and 19 per cent of appointees for public appointments came from black, Asian, minority ethnic people in the latest statistics.

Of course, we have impact in schools, which I think is really important, because we made Wales the first country to make it mandatory to teach the histories, contributions and experiences of black, Asian, ethnic minority people. All eight universities have been awarded the advanced higher education race equality charter bronze award. This is the only nation where that has happened.

We've got 28 local and independent Welsh museums receiving support for decolonising their collections through culture, heritage and sport. Health and social care: the first social care workforce race equality standard. We're increasing the numbers of black, Asian, minority ethnic people sitting on boards of Welsh registered social landlords. There has been £60,000 funding for the Welsh Local Government Association to deliver national anti-racism leadership training. Also, employability and skills: our employability support programme focused on ethnic diversity and inclusion. Entrepreneurship: again, an increased number of clients supported through Business Wales. Nation of sanctuary: the migrant integration framework.

Crime and justice: I think I haven't mentioned, and I'm sure you'll recognise that one of the first things we did when we published the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' post pandemic was to set up a race disparity unit. In fact, Ian is here from that unit as part of the equality evidence unit.

I think the anti-racism training from Diversity and Anti-Racist Professional Learning and Cwlwm partners has made a big difference in childcare settings. We've got an impact measurement framework. What we need to be able to show is actually what does this mean. So, an impact measurement framework is going to be published on 11 March to measure progress across Welsh Government and the wider public sector, and a dashboard as well. In fact, the dashboard has already been published, hasn't it?

The tracker.

The tracker of the dashboard. And, for example, there's been evaluation of the culture, heritage  and sports £5 million grant. So, I'm giving you some examples, because it's important to put that on the record—

Yes. Lots of good work has been done, and, obviously, the international situation doesn't help us. But could I just ask Mr Jones about the dashboard? The Cabinet Secretary's written evidence refers to a prototype dashboard to be used by the external accountability group. I wondered if you could explain why we haven't got an embedded system, given that we've been talking about this for about four years now.

Yes, certainly. The ARWAP dashboard, the prototype dashboard, was first trialled last summer with the external advisory group. Since then, the dashboard has been presented and tested with the sub-groups for ArWAP as well to test it further, looking at the data sources, et cetera—

So, what's going to be published on 11 March based on an analysis of—

That's slightly different. On 11 March, we're publishing the impact measurement framework. The dashboard then will be a visualisation of the publicly available data. It has been challenging and complex, because we're talking about over 70 indicators, looking at trends over time to get everything in one place, but we think we've got an answer for that now. We've got quite rigorous accessibility standards for presenting and publishing statistical outputs—

Do you think it was too complicated or too challenging to have 70 indicators?

I think it has been challenging and it has been complex, but I think we've got an answer now and we will be delivering something soon on that.

Soon? Before the—

Probably after the election, but we would be happy to offer a technical briefing or a summary for the committee if that would be helpful.

Thank you for the offer.

Could I just bring Amelia in?

Just to explain a bit about it, I know the external accountability group were impressed with it. It's very interactive, and I think that's the issue: making sure that people with screen readers and assistive technology can absolutely access it. But it's a really good tool in terms of, as I say, being very intuitive and interactive.

At the end of the day, the important thing is is it accurately tracking where we're making progress and where we're not making progress, so that we can focus on the things that need most attention. Would you say that that is what it's going to do?

That's the purpose of it, and to see whether the interventions that we make are actually successful. If they're not, we can then look at why. But that's the absolute purpose of it, and to have that transparently laid out.

When we did our inquiry, some stakeholders said they lacked clarity on what their role was. What progress do you think has been made in ensuring that everybody knows exactly what role they're expected to play?

That is really important. There are a number of stakeholders, of course—stakeholders across the whole of the Welsh Government, all the sectors. I do hope the committee will acknowledge the fact that we've got this independent external advisory group. It is co‑chaired by Professor Ogbonna and the Permanent Secretary, but it does bring in experts from all of the fields.

But also, since the start of our journey on seeking to move towards Wales being an anti‑racist nation, we've recognised there are lots more challenges in terms of intersectionality, for example. Recently, I was very pleased to meet with some survivors of domestic abuse, who also saw that there is some intersectionality between race and violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. One of the things that again goes into our work on VAWDASV is the fact that we're looking more at working with survivors as well as people with lived experience, to make sure stakeholders do feel that they know what their roles are.

We are funding also Race Council Cymru, Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales and Race Equality First. We're funding them—key race organisations, you all know them—to help us deliver targeted work in terms of the 'Anti‑racist Wales Action Plan'. EYST continues to do great work with community and youth engagement; Race Council Cymru on the UN convention on the elimination of racial discrimination—they've got a conference in a couple of weeks’ time—but also their work with Windrush elders; and Black History Wales and Race Equality First are doing really important work in terms of access to anti‑racist casework and legal advocacy.

We've also got a newsletter, a stakeholder bulletin. Riaz is there on screen, very much head of the ArWAP team, engaging, making sure that we get information out every month to 2,000 stakeholders. There's one example: we've got a convener in north Wales who's been working with Conwy council in local schools on a project called, 'What's it got to do with me?' That's connecting the principles of our ArWAP with officers in local government and providing a model that could be reflected across Wales. We've got webinars, and I mentioned training earlier on anti-racism for local government. Really, yes, it's the interaction. I hope that the dashboard—. I know that you're doing a technical briefing for the committee on Welsh benefits; I don't know whether you'd like to have one on the dashboard, because it's got to be transparent. There's no question about it. 

Thank you. The other thing where we'd love a bit more transparency is on the budget for the action plan. We have asked you for that information, because we think that that would enable ethnic minorities to be reassured that sufficient resources were being put in to this complex set of goals. So, I just wondered if there's anything you can tell us about—. I appreciate that this is cross-Government, obviously, but has nobody added up what resources we're putting into this that a new Government of a different stripe might simply just eliminate?

Well, as you say, it's cross-Government, and just in terms of the budget that we recently passed, hopefully there was some scrutiny and questioning from committees about their specific areas of responsibility in terms of cross-Government funding. I know that, in my report to you on evidence, I did attach the technical document, which is quite a weighty document—apologies—but actually, you can track through that the funding.

I just wanted to give you a couple of examples in terms of funding. One is education. We've given £160 million to local authorities to support action to address equity in education, and you will have heard the Cabinet Secretary for Education talking about support for DARPL, the diversity and anti-racism professional learning team. I know that the funding for DARPL is absolutely essential into next year. There's the £5 million for culture and heritage, I've already mentioned all the local schemes.

Something that does appear in this technical document—. I was particularly scrutinising areas that may not get public attention. But we have recognised that there's a real issue about immigration legal advice capacity gaps. We now have funded the immigration legal advice providers, and that's through my budget, quite apart from the many other streams of funding. So, I hope that, again, that does give you some indication—. But I think our ArWAP progress update tracker, published last month, will also give you some indication of where this is going.

In terms of the team, we've got a whole team headed by Riaz. We've got more conveners. I've just mentioned the north Wales convener and the work that she's doing. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' has to permeate everything we do. I have to say that Race Alliance Wales, which recently brought organisations together, and I hope you've all met them—. One of their key—. They've only got six points for the manifestos, and I will say this, they say accelerate and implement the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. For me, this is absolutely critical as we go from the end of this sixth Senedd into the next seventh Senedd and a new Government.

We must have a commitment from all political parties to implement the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It is making a difference to people's lives, it's embedded in every part of this Welsh Government. I'm absolutely passionate about this, and I hope that the committee will keep that backing as we go forward into the last few weeks of this Senedd.

Thank you. I'm sure that it'll work its way into our legacy report. Altaf Hussain. 

Thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary, I'm going to be asking about racism and hate crime. Why have racial hate crimes increased, despite the Welsh Government's anti-racist Wales goal, and what is the new plan to actually make things better?

It is disheartening to us all who believe in hope, not hate, in Wales that we have this 5 per cent increase in recorded hate crime. We actually had two annual decreases. Chair, you've mentioned the global situation, but we also have to recognise that the situation we have in terms of misinformation, disinformation, discord, division and divisive politics has made a huge impact on people's lives. When I meet with people, the Wales race forum, as Minister, and I'm sure as Members do, we recognise the rise in racism and that we need to counter that. 

I just wanted to say a couple of things, because this also links very much to community cohesion, I would say. We have to correct the record. We have a stakeholder misinformation toolkit. It's helping community leaders, I know, to structure conversations with people who have encountered potential misinformation. We also—

Could you give us a specific example, without pinpointing a community that doesn't want to be targeted, just as to how that works?

It's the misinformation toolkit. Actually, what I wanted to do—. We've got a practical guide to protect organisations from hate and harassment. I'd like to share this with the committee. It's gone to all third sector organisations, because we know, for example—. I can give you one example, the Welsh Refugee Council, because of their support for the nation of sanctuary. We fund the Welsh Refugee Council, and I'm proud to fund them, and I will continue again to call on all political parties to support not only funding the Welsh Refugee Council, but the nation of sanctuary.

This is about not just the political situation; this is protecting organisations, protecting staff, protecting people in buildings. We know what's happened over the past year or two. So, we've got a whole range of support systems for organisations. This is available for the third sector, but if the committee would like to see this—. But we also have our fact file through our communications division, where we pick up misinformation and put the record straight. Obviously, many of us have been subject to misinformation, misleading information, disinformation, and the fact file can put the record straight.

But leading from the question that you have asked, Altaf, I think some of the £5 million of grants to heritage and to museums has been really transformational. Going to visit Chepstow Museum and seeing some of the colonial history and understanding our responsibilities in Wales towards the history, and then bringing us right up, when we went to the opening of an exhibition that we funded, to be greeted by Ukrainian refugees who had come and found a welcome here in Wales, and as part of the museum and the event, their engagement—. We've seen this in museums across Wales: education is absolutely crucial, and leadership.

If you look at the technical document, there's a whole chapter on leadership. If we don't have leadership in anti-racism at every single level—and that includes every citizen, but it's the one Welsh public sector—we will not make that difference. So, leadership in anti-racism. We want to make Wales the beacon nation for racial equality. So, we've got to have that commitment. And it does impact on community cohesion. Our expert group is about to publish its findings on community cohesion, so hopefully that will help.

We note your commitment on this subject. Was there anything else you wanted to ask, Altaf?

I want to ask about the community cohesion response framework. You have said also in your written statement, which supports more accurate identification and assessment of tensions and hate. Could you tell us more about this framework and what impact it will have on combating hate and racism?

Yes, thank you for that, because this is all developing very—. Well, not developing fast, in the sense that we have been funding community cohesion co-ordinators for a number of years. And you will welcome, I know, the fact that we're funding them for a three-year period up until 2029. Because one of the crucial things about tackling racism and promoting hope not hate and identifying a strong infrastructure on community cohesion is that you can't have one-off funding. You can't have a bit of funding that's going to finish at the end of March. This has got to be long-term funding to safeguard it. Whichever Government is in power after May, this money is safeguarded so no-one can disentangle it.

In terms of the community cohesion framework, this is something about how we can help the community cohesion co-ordinators identify community tensions in their areas. I chaired a meeting—the last meeting of this Government—of the faith communities forum on Thursday, with a lot of colleagues here. But people of all faiths who came to that faith communities forum were talking about all the things we're talking about now, and what life is like for people and communities and faith groups and places of worship in terms of community cohesion. So, it is something, the framework, that is directly coming, partly, out of the Southport disorder back in 2024, and it's making sure there are closer connections. All of our community cohesion co-ordinators are located in local authorities. I've mentioned the fact check—it’s called ‘For the Record’—to make sure that they can also share misinformation, disinformation. And it's making sure that the whole of Welsh Government is engaged in this.

I think, in terms of the community cohesion developments, the work that's being done with the expert group, which is about to publish, I think—. Is it in the next few weeks?

They're meeting on 19 March.

They're meeting on 19 March, the group that was set up because of this committee. It's also looking at the framework, isn't it, Andrew? 

Yes. So, the framework was, essentially, a Government response to identify the lessons from our response to the disorder in the summer of 2024. So, it's mainly to look at how we improve our communication across Government, but also our relationship and our communication with stakeholders that we brought together quite quickly after that. So, we're still developing it, but it's really mainly to help us, internally, identify those tensions and respond to them as quickly and efficiently as we can.

And is there quite a big involvement of the local population, local communities, in this? 

Certainly through the community cohesion co-ordinators at local level. I'm sure you can meet your local community cohesion co-ordinator. It's useful to do so, to find out what's on their agenda. Clearly, there have been some areas of real tension where we've responded over the past couple of years—for different reasons, of course, in terms of the causes of those tensions. Also policing colleagues as well as community cohesion colleagues. Giving them status and influence is really important in terms of the role of a community cohesion co-ordinator. So, we've strengthened all of that, haven't we, in terms of looking at the framework.

When there was an audit of the disorder in 2024, in the summer, externally—I think you might have got this information—there was a recognition that the community cohesion co-ordinators were a strength in Wales.

Yes, absolutely. It'd be useful if you could send us a list of all the different community cohesion co-ordinators, because then that would give them a profile—with their e-mail addresses; we could then make contact with them. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

I think we need to move on, so we're now moving on to gender-based violence. Jane Dodds, would you like to come in, please?

Well, that is a terrible situation, which I was not aware of until you raised that with me today. I certainly want to find out—and Mike Connolly will do this for me—from the police forces. I think the only thing I would say is that there is some prospect, because obviously this is something that's come up policy wise—. There is a prospect with the UK Government's ‘Freedom from violence and abuse: a cross-government strategy to build a safer society for women and girls’. That's the full title of their of their strategy, and my understanding is that they recently announced that they'll introduce a requirement for police to seek a domestic abuse victim’s consent before sharing their information with immigration enforcement. Because survivors need to be able to report crimes without fear, and we need to ensure that trust and access to justice is clear. So, again, I'm going to raise this this question with our policing colleagues, but also with the UK Government, and I'll be meeting and engaging with Ministers Jess Phillips and Alex Davies-Jones on the new strategy. But I think this is something where we've got more support for investing in our support for migrant victim schemes, so it is coming together. I've mentioned the development of support that we've got now from the Home Office in my evidence paper.

Thank you. That, again, was a very important report from the committee. I think I've also mentioned, again in my evidence report, the ways in which we've responded to recommendations. I think I’ll turn to Ian again in terms of the fact that we've got an equality, race and disability evidence unit to improve evidence about individuals with protected or associated characteristics. That was one of the recommendations from the committee in terms of understanding the level and types of inequalities across Wales. Also, we are publishing an annual progress update on the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence blueprint, sharing information on the blueprint through regular briefing. The mental health and well-being strategy was published, of course, last year, with a focus on early access, early intervention. Also, I think, importantly, to say that we fund the Ar Trac project through the third sector social services grant, which supports children and young people aged five to 16 who've witnessed or experienced domestic abuse. Recommendation 4—that was a crucial recommendation.

So, we're funding—continuing to fund—specialist VAWDASV services directly, regional VAWDASV teams, and we wrote at the end of Easter term in 2024 to remind schools of their mandatory duty to report cases or suspected cases of female genital mutilation, and also our officials have met with the safeguarding education group. We've also got our keeping safe online youth group. That's something that has now become much more a feature, unfortunately, of VAWDASV. We've got the women's health plan, of course, which actually looks also at issues around VAWDASV for health care services for women. And we, of course, have got a workstream on violence against women in the workplace, and we've had a number of conferences on that—national conferences—looking at the pervasive impact of workplace sexual harassment, and over 100 public sector bodies across Wales attended.

I think two final things I'd like to say: you will be aware of the Sound campaign and we now have got a documentary called Sound Lad. It's reached 95 per cent of men and boys across Wales between 18 and 35. Your recommendation was really important—recommendation 10—on that. It's really important, using celebrities and influencers. And also the tackling perpetration workstream has done a widespread survey on what perpetrator interventions are available and most effective. So, that's just a quick run-through—updates, if you like—on the issues that you raised, in terms of the public health approach to gender-based violence.

So, we've had a letter from the Magistrates' Association outlining that the guidance has actually led to an increase in the trend of women who are on remand and who are receiving short sentences. This does tie into the women's centre, but could you just touch on that? It's really concerning that we're seeing, actually, more women are being placed on remand and more receiving short sentences. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, I'm extremely concerned about that letter—obviously, I haven't had a letter of that kind, but I don't know, Mike, if you're aware of this—because that is entirely the wrong direction, as we've already discussed, in terms of wanting to move away from short-term sentences. And I can't understand it anyway, because the Magistrates' Association knows our views about the negative impact of short sentences on women and children. So, Mike, are you aware of this?

I'm not aware of the letter, Cabinet Secretary, but just to mention to the committee that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned earlier the women in justice board at the UK level. One of their stated objectives is to reduce the number of women in the custody system; similarly with the sentencing Act that's currently being developed at the moment. So, although they don't directly address the question that was asked, they are two ongoing developments that should start to show through over time.

But I think a worrying point is if they're saying that our guidance in terms of children and young people is—. Well, you can, obviously, share this letter with us.

Well, we're about to publish it after this meeting, so you'll be able to see it.

We'll pick that up immediately, because, as I said, we spent time through our women's justice blueprint in Wales engaging with magistrates and sentencers, so we will want to try and engage with them. In fact, the Magistrates' Association attended our roundtable and were very sympathetic to the evidence that we were giving and Rob Jones was giving, and very supportive of needing to make those changes. So, let's try and pick that up, Chair, in terms of what's happening.

Yes, okay. Okay, Jane, can you—?

All right. Julie Morgan.

I'll just ask one more question about children in this situation, because the committee did call for urgent fast-tracked specialist therapeutic support for children who are either experiencing or witnessing gender-based violence. Have you been able to follow that through?

Yes. This is something where we need to ensure that services are being commissioned at local and regional levels to meet the needs of children and young people. What we're doing now is we're going to undertake a national mapping exercise of specialist services and pathways for children and young people, look at what's available. I have mentioned Ar Trac. I'm not sure if the committee's aware of that. I want to reassure the committee that the funding for 2026-27 for Ar Trac is in place, and I've mentioned the fact that it does support five to 16 year-olds and it's through the third sector organisations, but it's for those children who've experienced or witnessed domestic abuse and this having an impact on their lives and family and their relationships. But the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 does place a duty on local authorities and local health boards to plan their strategies and their funding based on the needs of children and young people, so it's timely to have a mapping exercise of those services.

Thank you, Chair. That's all.

Thank you. Very good. We'll now move on to child poverty, and Sioned Williams.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. Of course, you know that we have powers, and we don't have all the powers, to tackle child poverty and there are far too many children living in poverty, and that's why we launched our child poverty strategy for Wales, which has long-term ambitions to tackle child poverty and also mitigate the worst impacts of child poverty in Wales. It very much links to our well-being of future generations, doesn't it, our objective to have a more equal Wales. And it's very interesting, looking at all the evidence papers, particularly from the Bevan Foundation and Policy in Practice, about—. I mean, even they say that there isn't one single route, one lever of the levers that we've got in Wales that could make the change. But actually getting people into work is crucial, and well-paid work. It's always been a barrier, in terms of employment issues for women and girls. So, that's where I go back to some of the issues we discussed about the employability support group in terms of having our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It's also about childcare and ensuring that we have the best possible options for children, as well as access to employment.

So, one of the main objectives—and it came through the UK child poverty strategy—was to put money into people's pockets. Obviously, wages are the best way to do that—decent pay—but also to ensure that people have got the benefits they're entitled to. The £7 billion is a large amount of money—we're tackling fuel poverty, we're tackling food poverty to tackle child poverty. But access to the single advice fund, I think, is crucial, because that's unlocked over £200 million of unclaimed benefits. Our discretionary assistance fund—and I know this committee has always supported this at budget times—provides vital help in times of crisis. But a game-changer, no question, has been the universal free school meals for every primary school child, with 50 million meals served since 2022, and raising the education maintenance allowance to £40 a week. But I feel that one of the success stories that needs to be taken forward by the next Government is the Welsh benefits charter. All 22 local authorities are engaging in that and having a pathway to ensure that people do not have to claim more than once for the school essentials grant, free school meals and the council tax reduction scheme. I think the fact is that our Welsh benefits charter, our 'Claim what's yours' and our single advice fund are all making a huge difference to people's lives, and also our young person's guarantee. It's very cross-Government, of course, in terms of tackling child poverty. I'm very pleased that our baby bundles have now been starting to be delivered since February. Period dignity grants, enabling families to access period products free, has made a huge difference.

When I did my update on the child poverty strategy, you will recall that I also published a report on lived experience, and I certainly do advise any future Government to do this. We need to talk to the people who are experiencing poverty and say, 'What has helped you?' There's no question that the discretionary assistance fund, free school meals—access to those benefits—have been crucial and listening children and young people themselves. I think that's one of the interesting things that have come through from another issue we've discussed today in terms of healthy eating regulations. In fact, Lynne Neagle mentioned this last week in the Senedd, or some time ago, the fact of talking to young people about accessing food, quality food, as teenagers in secondary school. You need to talk to young people about what they need. So, I think lived experience is really important.

But, of course, we've still got a long way to go. I would say—we all called for it, and it was delivered—that the lifting of the two-child benefit cap has been key. Sixty-nine thousand children coming out of poverty, a cut of 3 per cent to 4 per cent, reducing relative poverty as a result of that. We called for it, and that was a lever we didn't have, but I think that has been crucial in terms of working with the UK Government with their strategy as well.

I'm also continuing to ask for other things from the UK Government. I think we should move towards a social tariff to tackle fuel poverty, and local housing allowances need to be raised as well. But we've made a huge step forward in terms of tackling poverty, in terms of the lifting of the two-child benefit cap. But these are our levers, the levers that we have, that we've got to take responsibility for. When I visited—just finally—the Cynon Linc a couple of weeks ago and met someone who's been giving advice for 23 years, as a result of the single advice fund, which is getting three-year funding—again, no-one can stop that; three-year funding for the single advice fund—she said that she'd on her own got £1.7 million into people's pockets in her community in Aberdare as a result of her being paid full-time to give advice to people on their benefits. That's all ages, but children, of course, are the first port of call in this in terms of tackling child poverty.

I think I've mentioned the aspects of our cross-Government child poverty strategy that I believe are doing good and need to be retained and supported in terms of getting money, via entitlements, into people's pockets—'Claim what's yours'. We need to continue to do what we're doing in terms of that and also the emergency support through the discretionary assistance fund, but also going back to our earlier discussions about food, there's no question—and tackling fuel poverty. I've mentioned the fact there are two other UK Government policy areas that I've raised: social tariffs and local housing allowance.

One of the things that I do want to say in terms of tackling child poverty is: how do we monitor the delivery of our plan? I published my progress report, which included not just progress on many of the areas I've mentioned, but also the monitoring framework to provide a population-level assessment for the combined impact of our programmes, and seeing what evidence there is of improving outcomes, but also that policy progress report, and I've mentioned the lived experience report.

The other thing that we've done, which I think has been very valuable—I've mentioned it already—is the child poverty innovation grants, and we've got a child poverty community of practice. It's very interesting, because often you meet some of the same people—if you meet local food partnerships, there are people there who are also involved in tackling child poverty, and the child poverty community of practice is very powerful. And let's also recognise that this is a 10-year strategy, and it's not going to be changed overnight. There are factors right out of our—. They are global, let alone UK Government wide.

Yes. You'll know that we have been looking into this, but we don't have the same powers as the Scottish Government. I've said a lot about increasing incomes, so there's no question that the more we can increase incomes, the better. And we have been liaising with the Scottish Government about this to see what legislatively, as well as fiscally—because it's in terms of funding—could be, and what the implications for us are. But we do not have the same legislative competence to legislate for an equivalent scheme in Scotland. That's absolutely clear. It has devolved social security powers, which have enabled the Scottish Government to deliver the Scottish child payment.

One of the issues we've got is in terms of looking at what this could mean for Wales. We have already, many times in the past, asked for the devolution of the administration of social security powers to Wales. And also, because of the powers that have been developed and afforded to Scotland—for example, they've got Social Security Scotland—they've got an infrastructure, haven't they, which enables them. We don't have such a delivery infrastructure in Wales. So, we're a long way off—even if we had the powers—being able to establish a new benefit delivery system. But this is something, again, which we haven't closed the door on, have we? We've been looking at it in every respect and engaging with the—. In fact, I think it was only last week, officials met—I'm not sure if it was you, Claire—with Scottish Government officials.

Yes, the team met with them last week as part of ongoing engagement.

Okay. Jane Dodds is very keen to come in, and I've got two supplementaries as well. Jane.

Okay. I think that the Cabinet Secretary has got the question.

Yes. I mentioned earlier on that we recognise that childcare is a huge issue for us, a policy issue for us, in terms of enabling women, particularly—parents—to get back into work and to be in work and be able to work to further their careers and prospects and also earn a decent wage as well. So, yes, in terms of the need to look at the ways in which we can invest in childcare—further invest in childcare—it's a key responsibility of the Government. We're very proud of our childcare offer and the fact that we're rolling out Flying Start, and rolling it out to all two-year-olds will be a huge step forward in terms of childcare, but also recognising that that's not just for particular cohorts of eligible parents, it's going to be universal, which will make a huge difference in terms of access to childcare and, indeed, also to family-friendly policies. So, that's also crucial for employers as well, to take that on board, as well as, when possible financially, the extension of childcare provision.

Thank you. I just want to go back briefly to the report we did on the situation of migrant women who are suffering violence. After our report was published in 2022, you issued guidance to all local authorities to implement a local no recourse to public funds pathway, but the Bevan Foundation looked at this in February 2024 and found that no local authority had implemented the NRPF, the no recourse to public funds pathway. I just wondered what action, if any, the Welsh Government was able to take to remind them of their duties.

That covers a whole range of access to public services including, in schools, free school meals, and I know that this is something that has been raised by the Cabinet Secretary for Education. And I've given in my evidence report what we're doing particularly in relation to migrant victims—

Absolutely, it's just that it's a very specific thing. 

But in terms of local government, I'm not sure whether an update on that report from the Bevan Foundation is available, but clearly this is something where we can support our scheme particularly for those caught up in terms of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, but no recourse to public funds affects everyone and every child, not just those who are victims of gender-based violence. So, that is something that it would be useful to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government about as well. But I certainly would wish to see local authorities reach out beyond any discretionary responsibilities to meet the needs of those.

This, for me, is part of the way that we integrate. Part of the nation of sanctuary is to ensure that people should be supported who have no recourse to public funds, to enable them and support them in their time of need. 

Thank you. My second question is also around local authorities. There's the excellent work you've been doing on the Welsh benefits charter to prevent people having to tell their stories 65 times, and 12 local authorities have engaged the Policy in Practice methodology for identifying people who are not claiming what they're entitled to. I wondered if you had any plans to publish the 10 local authorities who are not engaged at this stage, so that the next Government will be able to develop a strategy specific to them. 

Well, we've got all authorities committed to the Welsh benefits charter, all 22, and all have committed to phase 1, which was this, as I've mentioned—

Some of them are missing out on a lot of money.

Well, the thing is, the Policy in Practice was a pilot, and we approached local authorities, and we funded them. We gave—. It was £0.5 million, in fact, we've spent. And 12 authorities agreed to become part of that pilot. So, it wasn't a question of people saying, 'No, we wouldn't.' Some other authorities had already engaged with Policy in Practice, so that we were working alongside them. I'll bring Claire in, because I know she wants to make a point, but can I just say that those who did engage have delivered 70 targeted benefit take-up campaigns, reaching more than 23,000 households, and as a result, 1,100 households have successfully claimed additional benefits, receiving a total of £3.3 million in extra income? That was using this data analytical tool that Policy in Practice has developed, so it means you can go straight—. You know that I've also got this other £100 payment to disabled people who get council tax reduction scheme. That's been paid straight into people's accounts. They don't even have to apply for it. That's the way forward for the Welsh benefits charter. But if you want to just say anything else on the pilot.

Yes. Just to reassure you that we have the particular pilot around data analysis, which 12 local authorities have signed up for, but we are sharing the learning from that with all local authorities. But alongside that, the wider Welsh benefits streamlining work has all 22 local authorities engaged. They've all got a senior responsible officer, they're all part of that work, and we have separately put in money via that route to local authorities to help build their capacity. So, we've got the £0.5 million for the pilot, but we've also put in another £0.5 million for the wider Welsh benefits work, which has gone to all local authorities.

Thank you. On that very positive note, I just want to thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your engagement with this committee over the last five years, but also for the passion with which you've pursued the social justice agenda across Government. You have the smallest budget, but possibly the most influence of any Cabinet Secretary. So, for the breadth of your influence and the way in which you have pushed forward on the things that you clearly are passionate about, as are we, we'd like to thank you for all the work you've done, which is obviously informed by your service to Wales since 1999.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much indeed. Thank you to all your officials as well, and you'll get the transcript in due course.

Thank you for all the work that you've done as a committee. It's been really important. I'm grateful.

So, there are seven papers to note, including the one we mentioned—the correspondence from the Magistrates Association. Are there any issues that anybody wants to raise before we go into private session? Jane.

Thank you. I would like to raise that particular letter, and I would like us to look at the action that we could take in response, having heard from the Cabinet Secretary. It is deeply concerning that, despite us raising the issues, there is no change at all in the approach that the Magistrates Association of Wales is taking, and I would like us to consider how we can write to them, bridging that with what the Cabinet Secretary has said. Thank you.

Yes, I agree it was disappointing, given that she said that they were fully engaged in the meetings that she was convening, where they said they were extremely keen to drive down the numbers being sent to prison. So, there's obviously a disconnect there, and I think if we can have some correspondence with the Welsh Government, and then with the Magistrates Association, to try and join up the dots there, because it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

Otherwise, are we content to go into private session? I see no disagreement on that, so can we now move into private session, please?