National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to the hybrid meeting of the Petitions Committee. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. There are apologies from Joel James, and I would like to welcome Altaf Hussain, who's subbing today. Altaf's online. Welcome, Altaf.

Committee members should note any declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during proceedings. Okay, no declarations at the moment.

So, if we move on to new petitions, item 2.1, petition P-06-1532, 'Early Expert Input and Safeguarding Reform for Children with Additional Learning Needs in Wales'.

'The current ALN Code in Wales is failing children with complex needs like Autism, ADHD, and PDA. Without early expert input or safeguarding assessments, children are entering school unsupported. Our daughter experienced autistic burnout and trauma before age 5. Families are left to battle alone while vital support is delayed or denied due to system flaws and unclear processes.'

This was submitted by Rachael Walkingshaw-McGuinness with 469 signatures. Could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We've had a number of ALN-related petitions during this Senedd term and it's been raised on several occasions in the Chamber. The petitioner's case is very clear in the petition and the response has been positive. They welcome the engagement by Welsh Government. They have no issue with the law itself but how it's being implemented, and that there are safeguarding issues because of that.

Now, we've regularly mentioned the work of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. They've looked into ALN provision in Wales in great detail. A report has been drafted, I think due to be published in January, and a debate then later on in March. There will be an opportunity for these matters to be raised in that debate, so my recommendation is that we thank the petitioners for raising this important issue and close the petition. Diolch.

Okay, thank you. Would anybody else like to speak on it? I think, in response to the correspondence, the petitioner is very keen to ensure that she's raising this about early interventions as well, not just school-age children. So, perhaps we could highlight that to the CYPE committee to ensure that that is included as well in their report regarding ALN, and look forward to that debate in the Chamber. Okay, so we'll close the petition and write to the CYPE committee regarding the petition. Okay, thank you.

If we move on now to item 2.2, petition P-06-1540, 'Remove The Manipulative Funding System Forcing Students To Do Welsh Baccalaureate', and the petitions reads:

'Ioan Armstrong & Sam Bartlett: We are A-level students at Coleg Sir Gâr, Graig Campus, Llanelli who are starting this petition as a platform for student choice against the forced Welsh Baccalaureate qualification.

'Despite claims from the Welsh Government that the qualification isn't compulsory, we discovered a manipulative funding scheme through a FOI Request showing colleges receive £1000+ per student in additional funding through forcing Welsh Baccalaureate onto students.'

Okay, could I invite Vaughan to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Yes, thank you, Chair. So, this petition is coming from two students, and I think the detail of it and the notes we have highlight a lively disagreement between the students and the Cabinet Secretary. It's fair to point out that the comparison that is made in the £1,000 difference is for people undertaking three A-levels or A-level equivalents and the Welsh bac as well. You get £1,000 extra in funding if you do the Welsh bac on top of, not instead of, the three A-levels. I don't think the funding per subject is a particular challenge. The Cabinet Secretary in her note goes into a fair amount of detail about the history about how we get here.

There are a number of petitions on the subject of the Welsh bac, some objecting to the Welsh bac and the aim of what I think has been unfortunately called 'universal adoption', because that is seen by the petitioners as trying to make it compulsory so every student must do it. But there are quite a number of points from the current Cabinet Secretary and indeed Kirsty Williams talking about the fact that the Welsh bac with a broader skills base is actually something that the Government would like to see available for every learner, and there's guidance on this to that effect. But there's always been a recognition that it is not compulsory, there is no statutory requirement, but also a recognition that it may not be appropriate for some learners. That's a point that the children's commissioner has picked up, and a previous Children, Young People and Education Committee report from the previous Senedd as well.

What we have is a series of additional questions from the petitioners, and I think the choice for the committee is whether or not those questions are put back to the Cabinet Secretary. I can't see any harm in doing so, but I do think it's going to be the last turn that this committee can take within this Senedd term. The Children, Young People and Education Committee has undertaken a review of choices and support for choices in post-16 education, so the responses may be relevant for that committee to consider. But it looks to me like this is simply an honest disagreement about whether the Welsh bac should be available for every learner as a choice for them to potentially have and what I think is a fairly long-standing policy over more than one Government term to offer a broader base post 16 as well. My suggestion is that we take up the petitioners' comments, put them to the Cabinet Secretary, and copy that letter in, and any response, to the children and young people committee, as well as, obviously, the petitioners themselves. 

Okay. And close it or keep it open? 

I'd say keep it open until we get the response, but my view for the committee is it would take something extraordinary to keep the petition running after that. There's a series of extra questions, but also we'll run out of time in the term as well. It does look to me like this is simply a matter of disagreement about policy rather than there being anything else to it. People are entitled to disagree with the policy of the Government; it is a democracy after all.

I remember when my children were doing their Welsh bac and Duke of Edinburgh and all that—all these things will add extras to your curriculum vitae when applying for university was the thought. Maybe it's quite difficult to keep delivering it for schools and colleges. Okay, so if we can write to the Welsh Government with the petitioners' comments and the questions for clarification. Then we could write to the CYPE committee Chair regarding the petition and the response we receive from the Welsh Government. We'll keep it open just pending the response, but I think we may run out of time, as the Senedd will be dissolved on 7 April. We're running out of time, aren't we? And I must apologise to Ioan Armstrong. He was the petitioner, and I didn't actually say that he managed to get 1,132 signatures for the petition.

We move on now to item 2.3, P-06-1562, 'Improve breast screening uptake for women in Wales'. The petition reads:

'Breast screening saves lives from breast cancer. Yet targets for women screened in Wales are being missed. In 2022-23, only 69.5% of women invited for screening attended their appointment—below the 70% minimum standard and the 80% target. If the 80% target was met, 15,871 more women would have been screened and an estimated 154 more breast cancers detected. Welsh Government must support Public Health Wales and Breast Test Wales to improve breast screening uptake, and address inequalities.'

This was submitted by Breast Cancer Now, with 4,060 signatures obtained. I'd like to welcome Matthew from Breast Cancer Now, and also Sheila, who has travelled all the way from Ynys Môn to be with us today. Could I invited Lindsay, please, to discuss the petition and any actions you think we should take?

Thank you very much, Chair. This is only the second meeting of the Petitions Committee that I have attended, and I would say that this is certainly the most alarming statistic that I have read in possibly the last 35 to 40 years I've been involved in politics. To think that 15,000 women are walking around Wales not being screened and 154 of those women probably have early signs of breast cancer is alarming. We have to send out a 999 message to women in all corners of Wales: please use this facility; it is absolutely vital. If this facility were taken away, we would probably have thousands of demonstrators outside this building, and rightly so. But it's not been taken away, it is a facility that is readily available. I am genuinely very shocked that such a large number appears before us. The low take-up in many areas of Wales is a matter of national concern. I am so disappointed in Ynys Môn, 'Môn Mam Cymru' as it is often referred. Your mam is the most important person in your life. 'Môn Mam Cymru, we want to look after you' must be the message from this Senedd. The message must be clear to the women in Môn Mam Cymru, Ynys Môn: please use this facility.

I notice that we have—I have checked up, actually—12 mobile centres. I would like our letter to the Minister to seek answers on the three points raised here on how will the Welsh Government support and enable Breast Test Wales and Public Health Wales to meet the minimum standard to get to—. Well, we're not even getting to 70 per cent, but we need to get to 80 per cent. That's a good question to the Minister. Yes, find out—another question to the Minister—what is England doing differently to Wales, because they seem to be more successful. That shouldn't be right, obviously. And yes, the Cabinet Secretary should note that the current screening equity strategy is coming to an end and let us get the next version of the strategy, but when will that strategy be published and how are women of screening age and underserved groups being involved? Let us get out to the Merched y Wawrs and the Women's Institutes of Wales to ask them what they can do to help as well.

I understand that we have 12 mobile centres in Wales and I would like to know how well they are used. I hope they're not lying idle in a car park, I hope they are being well used, and maybe the Minister can provide us with details of how well they are being used. I would like to know is there a socioeconomic group of women in this age bracket, or is it perhaps a certain age within this age bracket that are not being screened. I really think we need the top experts in public relations to raise awareness of this. There is nothing better to raise awareness of women's issues, in my opinion, than famous Welsh women. We have a lot of them, and we are proud that we have a lot of them. In fact, the most important political person in Wales, of course, is our First Minister, and I hope our First Minister will become involved in this campaign to ensure that we are trying to target as many women as possible, to save lives.

I can tell you now, as a political opponent, if you like, of the Welsh Government, if this was something they were not providing, I would be beating a drum and waving a flag, but to be fair, chwarae teg, this is something that is being provided but is not being used. So, please, an appeal to all of the women in Wales to use this facility. I think any action should be to write to the Minister, not only to seek answers to the questions I raised, but to seek answers on the mobile units and whether there are any statistics on the socioeconomics or the age groups of women who are not using this facility. We have to ensure that women's lives are protected and they're given this help as fast as possible. Early detection is vital. I would move that, Chair. Thank you.

Thank you. Would anybody else like to come in at this stage? Vaughan.

Obviously, the particular group, Breast Test Wales, are interested in this particular cancer. There is the broader point, though, that the screening equity strategy is more than just breast cancer. I think as well as writing to the Minister to seek answers, we usually—I think we should do in this case—copy in the lead subject committee, because I would expect them to take an interest in the screening equity strategy.

Noting that the current strategy is coming to an end, I think it would be helpful to get a commitment about when the new strategy is expected and then how that's going to come to Senedd Members as well as the public, because the same issues that are highlighted in this petition about some geographic disparity and the socioeconomic disparity you'd find in most screening programmes. I note the Cabinet Secretary's letter noted that for this in particular, there's a lower take-up by people invited for the first time. So, I think there is something about age demographics as well as the socioeconomic demographic as well. But I think it'd be sensible—and the points that the petitioner asks are really constructive in that sense—to copy in the subject committee, because I expect they will want to look at the wider strategy.

But I think we should, in our own letter, ask when the Cabinet Secretary expects that new strategy to be available, and how it'd be published, because whoever is the health Secretary at the time, I would expect, would probably want to make a statement on it and promote the fact that the new strategy would encourage people to come forward and think about the different ways to do that. The national broadcast points won't necessarily reach all the people that we're talking about who aren't currently taking up the offer.

As you know, in screening programmes, they tend to ask you more than once as well, so there's still something about how to encourage people that it's in their own interests, not the interests of a Minister or the health service, to take up the offer and to get early advice, guidance and support. Hopefully, as we know, in most screening, people get good news, but the earlier the better in all forms.

I heard from Matthew, who earlier said that, usually, if people go the first time they will continue to go for their breast cancer screening, which is offered every three years, so it's getting them there in the first place to do it that is difficult. Rhys, did you want to come in?

Just to say it out in the open, I did mention before we started the committee about whether we could have this as a debate in Plenary, and I'm told, quite understandably, that we haven't got time left, and of course it hasn't reached the threshold. But I would imagine that this is important enough to have a debate. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. I was unaware of this issue before the petition, and I'd be very interested to know the reason behind the difference between different local authorities. There must be a reason. Why is Ynys Môn so low at 40 per cent?

It's the outlier, isn't it?

It's a massive outlier, and I think I'd really want to go behind that figure and know—. I'd like that to be put to the Cabinet Secretary. Why is that particular local authority so low?

When I talked with Sheila earlier from Anglesey, from Ynys Môn, she was saying that the test centre is in Holyhead, which is the far end, so perhaps if there was a mobile unit that could go to Llangefni and to Menai Bridge—maybe that would be it. But it's finding out in the first place, isn't it? Sheila kindly said that it's fine for me to mention that the mammogram picked up her breast cancer, and without that, it would have been undetected. As it was found at an early stage, it was treatable with just a lumpectomy and radiotherapy, rather than having to face chemotherapy at a later stage.

As Lindsay said, if we got to that 80 per cent, that's 16,000 more women screened, 154 breast cancer detections. It is a medical emergency. So, if people can get screened and have that breast cancer treated at a more treatable stage, life expectancy can be so much improved. I also heard that the cost saving to the Welsh NHS—over £100 million to the Welsh NHS is saved by detecting breast cancer early. That's something else to consider.

So, we have got here a list of questions. So, how will Welsh Government support, resource and enable Breast Test Wales and Public Health Wales to meet the 70 per cent minimum standard—we want the 80 per cent target—and deliver commitments within its new screening equity strategy? Also, as has been mentioned, we could do with finding out why there is that inequity there, what's the cause of it, whether it's geographical or socioeconomic. And then we can have targeted interventions as well, for those lower numbers that are taking it up, target those to have the screening. And then engagement. It's NHS England who have already started a campaign, so we'd like to know how successful their campaign is and if NHS Wales could contact NHS England to see and to learn from that what the uptake is and how they've gone about it, basically.

So, there's a list there. So, if we can write to the Welsh Government with those questions and copy in the Health and Social Care Committee, I think they would be very interested to hear all this and the statistics in this petition, in this report. Vaughan also mentioned the new strategy regarding screening. So, if we can include in that letter to the Health and Social Care Committee the screening equity strategy and ask the Welsh Government where they are with the new one.

Sorry, Chair, could we also ask about the greater use of the mobile centres?

Yes.

I believe that we have 12—at least that's what my research said. I think that only 11 may be on the road at the moment. But, if necessary, for example, why not send an additional mobile centre and move it around from Holyhead to Amlwch, Beaumaris or any other town? Many towns are available in Ynys Môn. Because I think that, certainly, Ynys Môn seems to need to be targeted. There must be Merched y Wawr, the Women's Institute. I know that, in the area where I live, there are lots of Knit and Natter groups springing up, well, let's target those people as well, because they are primarily women—not all, but primarily—and we've got to target the audience to get to them to ensure that they are getting this screening. It's vital.

The other thing that was raised with me is that we receive letters in English and Welsh, and perhaps there are people for whom it's not their first language, English or Welsh, and the fact that it's just a letter as well. If I have a dental appointment, I get texts reminding me, but a letter can be put somewhere out of sight and you forget about it, and then that's it. I was supposed to have gone last Friday, but was unable to attend an appointment because I had a medical emergency with my mother, with two hours to go, but they were able to offer me another appointment when I phoned. And again, for me, it has to be on a Friday, when I'm not here, and on a bus route because I car share, and they were able to offer that to me, which was great. So, there is that number there. If we can all do a bit of a campaign as well, ourselves, and raise awareness, I think that that would be really useful. 

It's vital. 

Yes. Okay, are we okay with those recommendations? Thank you very much. Thank you for attending. 

We'll move on now to updates to previous petitions. We've got item 3.1, P-06-1456, 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'. This was submitted by Karl Ciz, with 10,437 signatures, and we had a really good debate in the Chamber about this. Could I invite Altaf, who's online, to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take? Altaf.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon. This petition was debated in Plenary before Christmas. Following the debate, the petitioner wrote to say the Minister had missed the point. He argued that

'A Public inquiry would allow all data and data-driven decisions to be independently scrutinised and verified, and the correct decision about coverage to be reached, in public.'

Local MS Russell George also wrote to the Chair,

'asking the Committee to set out what steps it now intends to take to hold both the Welsh Government and NHS Wales to account on the commitments made—that no bases would close until the Rapid Response Vehicles are fully in place and operational. Public trust is already fragile, particularly given the absence of detailed information on these commitments, and it is'—

on pack page 9, a Senedd-restricted page, and also page 10—

'essential that the assurances previously given are not allowed to lapse without appropriate scrutiny.

'Given the cross-party concern, the opposition from both Powys and Betsi Cadwaladr health boards, and the overwhelmingly clear views of the public and clinicians alike, it is vital that this issue receives continued and robust parliamentary oversight. I would therefore be grateful if the Committee could confirm how it intends to progress this petition, including any planned evidence sessions, correspondence, or recommendations to the Welsh Government.'

On possible action, I think, in most cases, that a debate marks the end of the petition's journey. There seems little prospect of achieving a public inquiry—the headline request of this petition. However, given the urging of the petitioners and the local MSs, Members may wish to follow up the pledges made in the debate and write to the Minister, requesting a timeline setting out when the rapid response vehicles will be fully operational and when the bases will close. Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Altaf. Would anybody else like to come in? Yes, Vaughan.

I don't agree. I think that the debate in Plenary is the end of the journey for this petition through the Senedd. If the health committee wants to take the matter up, that is a matter for them as the lead subject committee. When I joined the committee, I went through the fact that there are petitions that seem to go on. As long as someone asks them to go on, they carry on. If you're the local MS, I understand why you might want to carry on, particularly if you're campaigning against something, or even for something, depending on your point of view, but that doesn't mean that it's a good use of this committee's time. Because this is a decision that the Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service Cymru has made, and if you're closing two bases and consolidating them into one, you're always, in any public service, going to get people who say that's wrong. Lindsay would have had this in the difficult choices he made as the leader of Caerphilly, no doubt. Any time you make a choice that involves moving services around, people will object to it.

A public inquiry won't get to the truth of this, and it's not the right issue for a public inquiry. Public inquiries are hugely expensive, and I don't think we should get lost in that. This is really—and I understand why—for people who don't want the decision to go ahead, but the decision's been made. And it's fair to point out, I think, that the people who don't want this to happen have also taken legal action. There's been a judicial review that they've lost as well. When it comes to wanting to see data, it isn't as if data hasn't been provided. The petitioners and the campaigners on this issue don't agree with it. As I said earlier, you're entitled not to agree, but that doesn't mean that a decision can't be made. And actually, when it comes to health service reorganisation and improvement, you've got to be able to make choices and see them through. And that'll be the case for this Government, for this group of people responsible for running and delivering the health service, just as it will be regardless of what happens in May this year.

And actually, for the use and the time of this committee and the Parliament, there's a local Member who's made clear he wants to carry on asking questions. Others may want to as well. That's perfectly right and proper. I don't think, after lengthy consideration and a debate in the Chamber, where there's no real prospect of extra parliamentary time changing the decision, and if we go down that line, we'll have to have a line drawn on whether we think that is the right decision. Are we really going to have the petitioners in here, together with the people who run the emergency medical transfer service, otherwise known as the Wales air ambulance, to come in? The Wales Air Ambulance Charity supports the flying doctor scheme and how the bases are organised. I don't think this is—. I think this really is where the petition should stop.

The petitioner has got significant attention for the issue, and I think that Members—more than one Member—would like to carry on asking questions, but I don't think it's the business of the committee to keep on resurrecting a petition that has come to the end of its life. And if that is going to happen, then the point about parliamentary scrutiny is a matter for the subject committee and for the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has several more question opportunities to go, and people can, of course, continue to ask questions about this decision.    

Anybody else like to speak on this? Is it not unreasonable for the committee to write to the Minister, though, requesting a timeline for when the rapid response vehicles will be fully operational and when the bases will close, just to—? Because that was a huge part of the debate that took place. And copying in the Health and Social Care committee as a recommendation, without—. That's not going too far. Would you accept that? Yes. We could do that. We're not reopening it. We're just writing to the Cabinet Secretary, asking that, and copying in the Chair of the Health and Social Care committee, okay? And then closing it.

Yes.

And closing it. Okay? And Altaf just nodded in agreement. Okay, thank you. 

If we move on now to 3.2, P-06-1491, 'We demand a fair deal for residents affected by the Arbed and CESP scheme'. And this was submitted by Rhiannon Goodall with 333 signatures. Sorry, that was online. And also collected on paper, which was—. So, we had a total of 606 signatures. Could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take? 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. This is the third consideration of this matter, which has been mentioned in the Senedd throughout this term. I know, before he was Deputy First Minister, Huw Irranca-Davies raised this regularly on the Plenary floor, and I know a colleague, Luke Fletcher, has done the same, a former member of this committee. We're in the situation where the petitioner's response is very different to that of the Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary sees real progress, positive progress, and we have the petitioner then rebutting a lot of the contents of that letter from the Cabinet Secretary.

Now, there are three main asks: they want a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary, potential compensation and, thirdly, a public inquiry. Well, the second two are outside our remit as a committee, but I think we could write to the Cabinet Secretary, just requesting for her to meet the petitioner and the campaigners. But as we're doing that, I'd also suggest that we thank the petitioner and close the petition. Diolch.

Okay. Does anybody else want to come in? Okay. So, for action, we will write to the Cabinet Secretary to ask if she would meet with the petitioners. I could meet with them as well as Chair of the Petitions Committee if you'd like, offer that, and then close the petition. Okay, thank you.

Item 3.3 is P-06-1515, 'Urgent installation of CCTV at Porth Train Station and bridge'. This was submitted by Emma Cawston with 255 signatures. Could I invite Vaughan to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Yes, thank you. I think this is an interesting point in terms of the response from the transport police, noting that there is anti-social behaviour linked to the railway station, some of it from passengers, some of it around the rail line as well. And what I think is interesting is that the response goes into some detail about what is happening, on the 25 CCTV cameras that operate. Only one is currently out of service. Coverage includes both platforms, and it's really interesting, I think, that the numbers are relatively low in terms of the number of offences, but they're going to have a significant impact on both the individuals who are subject to that behaviour, but also broader public confidence. It does seem that what is highlighted is that the station does now have extensive CCTV coverage, which is a good thing, so I think that's a positive outcome for the petitioners, and also in responding it looks to me as if transport police, Transport for Wales and other partners have looked again at the way that they work as partners and that refresh of partnership, which should be a good thing for partners and in particular for the community that they all serve.

So, I think this is one where it can be marked off as a plus for the petitioner, where action does appear to have been taken in renewing and strengthening partnerships. There is now significant coverage, and I hope that helps to both deter the incidents the petitioners complained of, and hopefully, if it were to happen again, to make sure those people are caught and dealt with properly.

Yes. 

And I'd suggest we close the petition at that point. 

Okay. Would anybody else like to comment? Okay. So, yes, congratulations to the petitioner, and we will close the petition. Thank you.

So, we move on to 3.4, which is petition P-06-1534, ‘End corridor care in Wales’, and it reads:

'In Wales, patients are currently receiving care on trolleys or chairs for hours on end, often days, in pain and suffering. Doctors, nurses, and health care staff are forced to treat and care for patients in corridors, car parks, and other places where safe, dignified care isn't possible and where they lack access to life-saving equipment. The Royal College of Nursing Wales and the BMA Cymru Wales are jointly raising the alarm on patient safety for Welsh Government to eradicate corridor care.'

Okay, could I invite Lindsay to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Thank you, Chair. Again, another serious issue. I'm sure that I speak for many people across Wales when I say that I can name you four individuals who are personally known to me who have had a relatively serious illness—well, one very serious illness—and they have spent a day or two sleeping in a chair in a corridor. When you have cancer and when you're 91, you shouldn't be sleeping in a chair, you should at least be sleeping in a bed, albeit in a corridor. I would hope that corridor would be at least warm, not very private, but at least when you're resting, you need to be resting in a bed and not a chair. I genuinely believe that no-one should spend a night in a chair. We are not people waiting at an airline for a cancelled flight. These are people who are seriously ill indeed.

I can cite you a case of a gentleman, who contacted me only last week, by the name of Phil Mason, who collapsed suddenly and spent over 24 hours in the chair, and he wanted to quite naturally complain to someone, and I was the person he came to. And, do you know, the encouraging part is Phil Mason didn't complain about the fact that he slept in a chair. He wasn't happy, but that wasn't his complaint. His main concern was the welfare of the staff who were looking after him. He was worried about the 86-year-old patient who was wandering the corridor, getting up out of her chair that night, but he didn't worry about himself. He was concerned about other patients and concerned about the welfare of staff who, he said, were nothing short of exceptional—exceptional—and the service he had. And that's all his main concern was, not for himself. That's the calibre of the patients we have in Wales—whereas a lot of people complain about, ‘What are you going to do for me?’, this gentleman was saying, ‘What are you going to do for the others?’, not only for the patients but for the staff as well, and I find that encouraging.

As I've said, I cannot fathom why the health boards across the whole of Wales allow people to sleep in a chair; it should at least be a bed. I have literally visited Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr within the last month, and I can tell you that there are beds stacked one on top of each other in parts of Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr that are not being used. So, why is that? Why aren't those beds stacked on top of each other not being taken to the hospitals where people need them to at least rest? You get a much better night's sleep sleeping on a bed than you do in a chair. I'm not a doctor, but I know that from my own personal experience. 

What do we do? Well, obviously the RCN and the British Medical Association are calling on—. We have four calls that they are asking, and I fully endorse those calls, about recording and reporting corridor care and doing everything that those august bodies request us to do. And I notice a possible action is it's now time for all parties to come forward with ideas to tackle these issues. Well, all parties in Wales, my own included, are formulating their manifestos right now, and there has to be room in those manifestos for an end now to putting people in chairs and allowing them to sleep for 24 or 48 hours or even longer. I think we could thank the petitioners, and hope that the manifestos produced by all of the parties in Wales will produce an answer to these questions that the BMA and the RCN and the petitioners want, and that the public and everyone will vote accordingly, and that whoever is controlling the Senedd after May 2026 will implement their manifesto and put an end to the scandal of people sleeping in chairs in hospitals. I don't think I can, with all honesty, recommend anything else; I would love to. If I could wave a wand and end it I'm sure we all would, but I can't. So, that's all I can offer to this committee, I'm afraid. I don't know if the other Members have anything else they feel they could add. 

Vaughan. 

Just briefly, Chair. It's much easier to point out the indignity of corridor care than say, 'Here is what to do about it and how', because you do have—. The largest number of staff that have ever worked in the NHS work in the NHS today, and still we have demand coming in. And not just demand, but it's the level of ill health coming in and, actually, our population isn't getting healthier. So, there's a challenge about what all of us, or the choices all of us get to make in our own lives and what that then means for the challenge the health service has. Money is always part of the answer, but it's only part of the answer, because there is still something about how our service is organised, how it's run. When I talk about 'our service', I don't just talk about the NHS, it's about social care as well, how to keep people well in their own homes, but also how to get people out of hospital when they no longer need to be there, because the problems at the front door almost always relate to what takes place in the community and at the back door of a hospital as well, where people can't get into their own homes, whether that home is a care home or a private residential home.

So, actually, this challenge is an obvious one to be able to look at and diagnose what that means for people, whether they're staff or patients. It's actually going to be harder to resolve it, but there's going to need to be commitment that goes beyond an election period to do something about that. And I think we could do with some honesty amongst ourselves as elected representatives and with the public about the fact that, whatever happens in May, the issue won't go away. It will take a period of commitment to change our whole system for that issue to disappear and to be in a place where all of us around this table and, indeed, the former NHS staff member on the screen would actually be happy about.

Thank you. And could I bring in Altaf as well, please?

Chair, thank you very much. I think I'm privileged, really, to be here and to talk about that. I didn't know that I would be talking about this corridor care. It is a problem you see and, for instance, Lindsay was talking about the rate of the patients on these trolleys and chairs, and we don't know the effect it has on these patients. Previously, I think—the health Minister will bear me out, my friend—in those days, we would be talking about more than a few hours, if a patient was there, and what would be the effect on the scale. Nowadays, we don't talk about it. But let me make it more clear: my concern is about the scale of the waiting list, high readmission and operation rates in hospitals, in addition to high mortality, particularly among the elderly population.

Now, Bevan's concept, and separate to the national NHS, should illustrate—[Inaudible.]—about self-interest, group interest or political interest. NHS interest cannot be viewed as subordinated interest, subordinated to personal interest, subordinated to administrative interest, or even subordinate to political interest. The current state of the NHS demands urgency for corrective measures. Unless we identify the basic problem in the NHS and take corrective actions now, it will be too late, if it is not already too late. I don't want our political leaders, and Cabinet Secretaries who are in charge of health, to become clinicians.

Managers in NHS hospitals were created with the admirable intention of helping the clinicians to focus on patient care. Managers were appointed without any job description, or, at best, a job description of managerial creation. It will remain a fact that none have got any other job description. They have become the embodiment of self-focus, self-development, self-progression, self-preservation, self-extension, and self-propagation, to the exclusion of the broader interest of NHS. This tendency can fundamentally subordinate and undermine our NHS, which it has already done.

So, on the one hand, we are trying to make new hospitals, use AI, new instruments, new technology. On the other hand, some existing hospitals and some wards in the existing facilities are being closed, with the result that, apart from the waiting list, patients are waiting for beds in corridors and are on trolleys. It should be recognised immediately that the only Welsh national service with responsibility for emergencies needs certain in-built contingency over capacity.

Now, we used to have observation wards in A&E departments attached—in the twentieth century. They are closed. They have closed them all. They have closed those community hospitals where we would send the patients for rehab. It was not a rehab, it was a space where they would go then to their homes or to care centres from that setting. It's not happening. So, it is a hotchpotch, and it is horrible. It needs an overhaul, and our NHS administrators, politicians, they need help.

Thank you, Altaf. We did have a petition—petition 1350, which was to reopen the Dyfi ward at Tywyn Hospital, and we've had an e-mail from them in light of this petition coming forward. There were 16 in-patient beds, and they've remained closed. And I remember being told when I asked about this, as a North Wales Member, that it was because there was a staff shortage. But now I've been told that, against the odds, there are now enough staff to reopen it. So, I think I'll write to the health board and ask why they are not reopening it. But it's things like this that you think, maybe, would make a difference. In Flintshire, we've still got three community hospitals. We fought to keep them open—minor injuries—and they're there. And they are rebuilding care homes as well. But it seems like there's an awful lot, isn't there, to consider. 

The reason I couldn't go to my breast cancer screening on Friday was because I was with my mum in a health emergency in a hospital corridor in the Countess of Chester. And throughout the day and evening, you could see the whole corridor was full of beds on wheels, and people were being moved for x-rays, a couple were sent home, others were sent for scans and others were coming in as well—it was continuous. One area of the corridor had curtains that could be closed around the bed, as well, and there was a consulting room off the corridor. Throughout the day, though, people were having blood tests and they were having their blood pressure checked. The staff were great, they set up a little unit on the corridor. At 11 o'clock in the evening, two specialists came to see my mum and we went into this room to check her out, which, again, amazed me that they were working on a Friday night at 11 o'clock. And then she got moved onto the ward at 4 o'clock in the morning. So, I was relieved that she was still getting the attention on that corridor, and it wasn't great because there's no privacy and it's very hard for people to move around all the time, for the staff who were working there. It's not right. But I'd just like to say how grateful I am that she received the attention. It was interesting to see how it was working—

I think, Chair, during COVID, I know it was a major emergency, but we could set up emergency hospitals across Wales and they were set up quite quickly. They weren't used too widely and you could argue that that is a good thing or a bad thing—I think it was a good thing they weren't used too widely—but something can be done, surely, to prevent this. This can't go on where we're treating people in—. And Vaughan Gething, former health Minister, former First Minister, is quite right: it's getting those people out of the back door quickly as well. That's all contributing to this. And social care is a major problem, but if money could be found then, I don't understand why it can't be found now.

Every one of those—. Sorry, I didn't mention—

Well, I think it's really easy to understand why. There were lots of functions then that weren't being run, so actually you had money that couldn't be spent and, in addition, in an emergency—and the pandemic was an extraordinary emergency—you go in and you spend money in a different way, in a different horizon. This is a regular challenge that every Government of Wales will have for several years to come, both how to resolve the challenge and then to make sure that it doesn't reappear. So, I think the petition has been helpful in highlighting that, with the debate in Plenary, and I'm sure it will feature as part of the election campaign, and it will feature regardless of the result as part of a regular conversation that we need to have, because we have significant additional pressures about the health and the needs of our population, and it's got to be seen as a health and social care challenge that affects staff and the people who need the care as well.

Can I just say that every one of those—? There were a lot of beds in the corridor going a long way back, and they were all elderly, but they were there for x-rays because they'd had falls or different things like that, as well as just checks. There was somebody who had a heart condition and thought maybe he was having a recurring heart attack, but he wasn't; they checked that out there and then as well. I know this because it's so open that you hear, and that's the thing, you don't get the privacy, do you? So, you said, you know, it was older people; there were some younger people who came in through A&E and went straight to the children's ward. The ambulance worker who brought us in, she said that they do have regular users who call them, and that's something that needs to be dealt with as well.

Yes. They have needs, but they're not necessarily health needs.

I think we've had a really good discussion on this. Altaf, did you want to come in again?

Yes. I want to make—. You have made a very important point. You see, when I was a practitioner, I was working in A&E departments, and in those days, there was nothing like this wait, because the A&E departments had a workforce, you know, doctors were there working all the time. We had small, minor surgeries and we had 10 cubicles with four or five doctors looking after those. So, there was no wait for any patients. Nowadays, none of our health boards, none of our health Ministers tell us the ratio between the public who are coming to A&E departments and the staff who look after them. It is only—. They say only about the public, public, public, public; we never know how many doctors at a time are working in any A&E department. And I tell you, I assure you, if you find it, I have seen it myself, it won't be more than one or two for 24 hours who will be looking after those minor ailments and other things. It is only during the consultant's time that he is in his chair, doing nothing, making the rotas for these doctors who are there in low numbers, and it is shameful.

I did see quite a few doctors going back and to. But, anyway, there we go, we've had a good airing of this and there's lots to be done. I'm sure it will be part of the groups' manifestos going forward and will probably get very political unfortunately as well, but there we are. So, if we move on now to—. There were no other actions that we needed to take, were there? No.

Item 3.5, petition P-06-1531, 'Mandate Comprehensive and Specific Food Labelling to Support Dietary Needs and Allergies'. That was submitted by Jessica Davies, with 308 signatures. Could I invite Altaf to discuss the petition, please?

Thanks a lot. The Food Standards Agency response says that they continue to monitor the evidence for expanding the list of 14 foods that have to be labelled, and that there are no plans to change labelling with respect to starches and where they come from. The petitioner is disappointed with the response and asks

'What steps can be taken now, before long-term research is complete, to ensure greater transparency in ingredient sourcing? Could mandatory source labelling be introduced for categories like starches, vegetable oils, or thickeners, where multiple potential allergens may be hidden? What mechanisms exist for incorporating lived experience—such as families managing complex or non-listed allergies—into the decision-making process? Is there a plan to review the system regularly so that people with less common allergies are not left waiting indefinitely for protection?'

She adds:

'This issue is about safety, dignity, and the ability to live without fear. Every individual with an allergy deserves to know whether the food they buy is safe for them. At present, many people are forced to avoid a huge range of foods simply because labelling is too vague to confirm whether hidden ingredients may harm them.'

On possible action, in the absence of new research evidence and considering the response from the Welsh Government and the Food Standards Agency, it is difficult to see many avenues to progress. Thanks and close, but I would suggest we get in touch—. Since I didn't know much about it before, what I would suggest is that we get in touch with Professor Adam Fox, who is the chair of the national allergy group, for his comments before we close it, because he's the authority on it.

I have visited many places, really, in the United Kingdom, and also in Great Ormond Street, where there are children looked after on this, how they come out of these allergies. I think my granddaughter has been on it, and, thank God, she had a nut allergy, she has been looked after and she is without it now. So, it is important that we need to know more about it, because this is a way forward. We won't be knowing in coming days what we'll be eating, as at present, when we know that plastic is running through our blood.

Yes, that's a good point, Altaf.

Thank you very much.

Okay, anybody else like to come in? So, Altaf, you proposed writing to the chair of the Food Standards Agency, was that, for comments regarding it? I couldn't hear that quite so well.

Yes, I can send you the details.

Thank you very much, and then we can close it.

Absolutely. Thank you very much. 

Thank you. Right, if we move on now to 3.6, petition P-06-1547, 'Sea bottom trawling is killing our marine wildlife...Stop bulldozing our marine wildlife!' This was submitted by Robert Curtis with 297 signatures. I remember watching the film Ocean, and it was devastating seeing what was happening there and the creation of barren sea beds, with 75 per cent of the catch—life—being discarded. Awful. Rhys, would you like to take us through this?

Yes, thank you, Cadeirydd. This is our second consideration of this important matter, and I think that most of us probably have seen the footage or similar footage to what you've mentioned, and the similar destruction and pointless waste. There has been good engagement from the Welsh Government on this matter. Back in November, there was a positive response from the Cabinet Secretary, who invited the petitioner to take part in the scallop fishing management measures review, and we haven't heard back from the petitioner. We sent that to the petitioner. We haven't heard back from the petitioner—no further comments. So, my suggestion is that we thank the petitioner and close this petition.

Okay. The Cabinet Secretary said that the position in Wales is very different. We have a lot of shellfish in our inshore fisheries. Okay. Moving forward, we'll close the petition. We're all in agreement. Thank you. 

That concludes the public business, so I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42— 

Sorry, there's a paper to note. 

Apologies. I turned the paper over without seeing it. 

We have a paper to note, which is on P-06-1307, 'The Welsh Government should commit to the adoption of the maintenance of new housing estates by local authorities'. It's at the end of the pack, a letter there. So, is it okay to note the paper? Thank you. So, that does conclude the public business.

I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? We've got nodding heads. Thank you very much. We'll move into private.