National Assembly for Wales

Good morning. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much. I'm Denise McQuade. I'm the Consul General of Ireland based in Cardiff.

Thank you ever so much for giving us the time this morning. We really appreciate it. We'll go straight into questions, if that's all right. You have become a friend of the committee, in many ways, in terms of how often you have given us evidence, and we've really appreciated your expertise. Could you talk us through, please, how you think the Wales-Ireland relationship has developed since the original shared statement back in 2021?

I think it's really fantastic to see how the relationship between Wales and Ireland has strengthened and deepened over the past four years. I've been here since 2022, and the level of engagement has grown year on year.

I think it's particularly striking in the political relationship. We've had the annual Ireland-Wales forum, which is one of the commitments in the shared statement. That's taken place four times now—twice in Ireland, twice in Wales—with successive Tánaistí, our deputy head of Government, with the First Minister each time, and with attendance from other relevant sectoral Ministers as well. That's been a marvellous opportunity for those senior political leaders to get together.

We've also had St Patrick's and St David's Day visits in both directions—I think three each way over the past couple of years. Those have also proved an excellent opportunity for Ministers to meet their counterparts and to do quite a wide-ranging programme with economic, cultural and community engagements in both countries. I think that's been one really big, positive development over the last few years.

An outworking of that was really evident this time last year when the port of Holyhead closed due to storm Darragh. The depth of ministerial and official contact in the immediate aftermath was really valuable, but also since then, through the Welsh Government's taskforce on Irish sea connectivity, which our Minister of State, Seán Canney, participated in, which I participated in, which officials from the Department of Transport participated in. As a result of that, first of all we now have a really excellent group of contacts across all sectors in touch with each other when anything happens to that connectivity, but also there's going to be ongoing ministerial and official contact as a direct result of the close contacts built up.

That's the final piece, I think, that official-level contact between Ireland and Wales over the past couple of years. I work very closely with the Welsh Government here and with the Welsh Government office in Dublin. I would like in particular to acknowledge that co-operation with the Welsh Government office and the work that they have done, particularly on the economic and innovation links.

If you look in the new shared statement, you'll see an example of co-operation on cyber security, and that was something that was very much driven by the Welsh Government office in Dublin. Similarly, there was a really excellent aerospace visit in both directions at the start of this year. Again, that was something that they worked on with Enterprise Ireland and brought to fruition. So, I just would like to give credit to them for the role they've played, as I say, particularly on those economic links.

Thank you ever so much.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I just wanted to pick up on the comments about Holyhead port and what Ireland's assessment is of the situation at the port. Obviously, due to storms, its operations were curtailed, shall we say, and there have been recent problems with the existing berths and the aggregates and all that sort of thing. In that sense, what sort of assessment has Ireland done in terms of the economy and transport between north Wales and Dublin, Dún Laoghaire, that sort of thing?

Holyhead port continues to be the single most important port for transporting goods between Ireland and the UK. It's extremely important to us as a point of connectivity. I think we were really grateful to the Welsh Government, but also the UK Government, last year, and all the stakeholders for all the steps everyone took to make sure that transport of goods and people could keep flowing when Holyhead port was shut. That was quite a significant operation, to keep that going. I think it really illustrated how important that port is.

I think what we've seen over the last 12 months is the value of close co-operation with the Welsh Government—on Holyhead, but also on all of that west coast connectivity. I think having all the stakeholders involved, including the owners of the ports, the transport bodies, hauliers and exporters, has been really valuable. I think we all, on both sides of the Irish sea, now have a much better understanding of how we need to work together, including on contingency. From the Irish perspective, it's certainly an extremely important port.

Has there been any direct economic assessment that took place on how much value it has, that connectivity, and, when there are impediments to those connectivities, how much that affects the economy of both north Wales and the east coast of Ireland as well?

That's a good question. I haven't seen that kind of detailed report, but it is possible that our Department of Transport does have access to that kind of data. I can certainly look into it, if it would be of interest to you; I can certainly see if we have done that kind of research.

Our brilliant researcher, Sara, has just been updating me on this. Apparently, our counterparts in the economy committee have been looking into this, and they've discovered that there's £0.5 billion that's been lost in trade in the last year. As well, Sara has updated me that Holyhead is closed again because of another berthing issue, and that, again, our counterparts in the economy and trade committee are writing to the Welsh Government to get an urgent update. So, what you're saying is very timely.

My understanding is that Holyhead port was closed yesterday, but I think that was because of the weather conditions. So, one berth was damaged. Until yesterday, there was another berth, and they were operating a full schedule, in the same way as they did from January last year. They just adjusted the schedule and operated the same number of ferries, just with one berth. So, we'd have to check again today. As I say, I think it was—

But regardless, it's so crucial, what you're talking about; it's so timely.

Absolutely, yes.

It's absolutely central. Diolch. Gareth, we can stick with you for any other questions you have.

I suppose it follows on in some regards. We've taken a lot of evidence on what Brexit has meant for the Wales and Ireland relationship since 2021. What are your views on the opportunities or challenges, almost five years on now?

I think it's been quite a challenging five years, and there's been quite a lot of uncertainty. I think the real value of having the shared statement was that it expressed the very clear shared wish of both Governments for the closest and deepest possible relationship between Wales and Ireland, and between Ireland and the UK. I think having that high-level commitment to co-operation meant that we had that motivation to work as closely together as we could. There are lots of examples of how we did that.

We've also had the British-Irish Council as another forum for working together—most recently last week, in the Vale of Glamorgan—and that's been really valuable as well. I think it's been challenging. I think we've worked together very well to maintain the closest relationship we could have. We have the new shared statement 2030, which is our commitment to continuing to work together.

I would also say, on Brexit, that a lot of work was done in Ireland on contingency planning for trade. I think, while there certainly was a drop-off on trade through Holyhead, Irish exports to the UK have grown over the last five-year period. I think we have found ways to overcome some of the challenges that we faced. For Ireland, the relationship with Wales, and the relationship with the UK, continues to be a really important relationship. Across the board, it's a relationship that we are investing in, not least with our consulate here, our consulate in Manchester, our consulate in Edinburgh, and our fairly substantial embassy in London.

That's fine. That covers everything I wanted to ask. 

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for being here. I just wondered if you could perhaps reflect on how you think the UK-Ireland shared statement is going to perhaps work with the Wales-Ireland co-operation, if you think there's anything that will help enhance the co-operation between Wales and Ireland from it.

We really welcome this new chapter in the Ireland-UK relationship. As I see it, the UK-Ireland joint statement is complementary to the work that we've done through the Ireland-Wales shared statement, and it's mutually reinforcing. If you look at the areas covered in the joint statement, you see a number of areas that are covered in both the Ireland-UK joint statement and the Ireland-Wales shared statement. Energy, research and culture are some of the big examples there. I think that Ireland-UK co-operation should help us work together as Ireland and Wales.

If you think about energy in particular, there's an area where there are devolved responsibilities and there are also reserved responsibilities. We also have a memorandum of understanding between Ireland and the UK on energy. I think having that commitment, I suppose between Dublin and London, if you want to look at it that way, and between Dublin and Cardiff, should be really beneficial, and it sets that political will to work together over the next couple of years.

I think also on the cultural side, I hope it should be useful. There was a meeting of UK and Irish cultural institutions in Dublin last month. A number of Welsh cultural institutions participated in that as well, and the Government of Ireland has now made €6 million available for funding those partnerships. It was really important to us that those cultural institutions included Welsh cultural institutions, Scottish cultural institutions as well, and Northern Ireland cultural institutions. That is, I think, a very valuable partnership, and I think that closer relationship through the Ireland-UK joint statement can only be beneficial to the Ireland-Wales relationship as well.

Thank you. Are you aware of whether there are any plans to match what's been put forward by the Irish Government, or if there have been any discussions about funding for the Wales-Ireland coming specifically to support those activities?

I can't comment on UK funding, obviously. Do you mean in terms of funding for shared statement activities?

Yes.

There have been a number of things done over the last couple of years. I think the last time I saw you, I was probably talking about the end of INTERREG and the challenges that that posed. That has been complex. There have been ongoing discussions about how do we try and bridge the gap as best we can after the end of INTERREG, acknowledging that it was a very large sum of money that neither Government has.

A number of different things have happened. I think one really important one has been the DISC project, the Developing Irish Sea Co-operation project. It's a PEACEPLUS project, which involves Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. That's been managed by the Southern Regional Assembly, which is the body in Ireland that also was responsible for INTERREG. Agile Cymru and the Welsh Government were really involved in getting that up off the ground as well. I think this is really beneficial, because we've got this first PEACEPLUS project, which supports that co-operation.

The Southern Regional Assembly has also been given a role in supporting co-operation more widely with Wales. There isn't specific funding for this, but they are the people who have worked extensively with Wales through INTERREG. So, in terms of anyone else in Government in Ireland who wants to do something with Wales, the Southern Regional Assembly has been formally given a role to assist and help co-ordinate, so that's really valuable.

On the research side, the research alliance award that was launched late last year—or was it early this year—between Wales Innovation Network and Research Ireland has been really valuable. That's a direct result of the UK's reaccession to Horizon. That's a pot of funding for projects that are almost ready to apply for Horizon funding, to get that up and running, get those kinds of joint projects going again. Then, more recently, the Government of Ireland's funding through the Royal Irish Academy for early career researchers is something to help build up those early links.

I suppose in one sense, that's not one pot of money for the shared statement, it's a couple of different things—a couple of different co-ordination frameworks, a couple of different funding streams. From our perspective, we did look at it. There wasn't an easy way of setting up one funding mechanism for Ireland-Wales co-operation. But I think, with those different things we have going on, added to things like Culture Ireland for touring artists and other arts funding that is available, there is a good range of support now available for people who want to work on that kind of co-operation.

Thank you. I guess my question is unfair, given that the Irish Government have put forward funding. It's something more for the scrutiny of both Welsh Government and UK Government, on their side. If I may just ask a final question in terms of the shared statement 2030, now it seems to have a narrower focus than previously. We heard evidence, for instance, last week that there was some frustration that perhaps some of our most successful partnerships are not explicitly stated and so on. How involved were you as an office in terms of the development of the shared statement? I just wonder: do you think it might inhibit some partnerships, or does it not matter, because we've got that strong basis, if some of the partnerships are not explicitly stated?

I wouldn't necessarily agree that it has a narrower focus. I think what we tried to do, and I was very involved with colleagues in Dublin and with colleagues from here in the Welsh Government office in Dublin as well—. If you look at the six focus areas of the shared statement 2030, they're largely the same as those in the shared statement joint action plan 2021-25, and, actually, a couple of them have been expanded. So, where we had 'climate and sustainability', we now have 'climate, energy, environment and sustainability'. Similarly, we had 'education and research'—we've added 'innovation' to that. Those additions were made because they reflected the nature of the discussions we'd had, particularly at the Ireland-Wales forum, and the work that we'd identified that needs to be done in the period ahead.

But we also tried, I suppose, to take a more strategic approach. So, I think the first shared statement was almost a compendium of existing co-operation, and it reflected the point in time when the consulate had only opened two years previously. So, we were still—both Governments were still—in a period of trying to identify, 'Okay, where are the areas that we already have co-operation going on? What are the things we can do?' I think we have the experience of the last five years and we can see—. We tried to identify those things where the two Governments really needed to work together.

We also tried, as I say, to take a more strategic approach, so that we have the overarching goals but not necessarily every single activity. So, I wouldn't, if I were any organisation that was mentioned explicitly in the last shared statement—. If they're not mentioned now, that does not in any way mean that we don't value their partnership. Quite the contrary. It's more that they're organisations that are independent of Government, and we really value their partnership, we want to support the partnership, but the work they do is part of a bigger picture of working together.

We really tried to draft it so that it would facilitate existing co-operation. Just to give an example of that, we've mentioned co-operation at regional and local authority level. We don't want to be telling local authorities to co-operate. We know how busy they are, how strapped for resources they are. At the same time, there is an existing twinning between Swansea and Cork. Rosslare and Fishguard just twinned as well. So, we want those cities that have those partnerships, and those regions and towns that have those partnerships, to know that we value that co-operation.

Similarly, the partnership between Urdd Gobaith Cymru and Coláiste Lurgan, the broader reference to initiatives that facilitate co-operation between youth organisations is very much intended to support that, but we don't want anyone reading it to think that that kind of partnership is limited to the Urdd and Coláiste Lurgan. If there are other things that can happen, we'd love to see that too.

Thank you.

Could we unmute Mick, please?

[Inaudible.]—the points I was going to raise with you. With regard to the shared statement, it contains a large number of action points for delivery. I'm just, really, thinking about two things relating to that. Could you tell us a little bit more about what the priorities would be within those action points—41 is an awful lot, and some will obviously be of quite significance as opposed to others—and how the engagement has taken place, I suppose, with stakeholders? You started to cover this, but really just a little bit more substance, perhaps, about how that engagement might continue over the coming year or so.

Thank you. I agree, there are quite a large number of action points, but there are only six headline goals. So, I think those action points, if we look at them—. I'm trying to remember how did we describe them. We set it out in such a way—. The headline topic—why is this important, what do we want to achieve—and then, those action points, as you call them—how will we do that. So, we very deliberately didn't give very specific actions; those are things that will be agreed with Ministers at the annual forum. So, they will give us our direction for the next 12 months each year, but all in pursuit of these larger, overarching goals.

In terms of consultation, basically, the Irish side did the consultation with the Irish stakeholders, and Welsh Government did the consultation with the Welsh stakeholders. From our side, it was mostly my colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Dublin that consulted, with quite detailed consultations with other Irish Government departments but also with external stakeholders. And it covered language, trade, housing, education, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, local government. And some of those consultations are—. Those consultations are all reflected in the subject matter that is in the shared statement. I think there's nothing in there where—. Well, to be fair, we never encountered anyone who said, 'No, don't include us', I think it's fair to say. But I think we tried very hard—. And there were probably points where we tweaked the language a bit just to make sure that stakeholders didn't think we were asking them to do something that they couldn't do.

And I think also the case studies that are in the new shared statement, they reflect some of the existing work that has taken place over the last five years. And again, stakeholders would have known that those case studies were going to be included as examples in the shared statement. So, I hope that that answers the question. I'm not sure I've entirely answered it.

Listen, I think it does. I suppose the reality is, when you call something a shared statement with action points, what we're really talking about is a framework, isn't it, which actually contains within it an awful lot of flexibility, as time goes on, for engagement and implementation of different points.

I always describe it, in explaining what it is, as our framework for co-operation. I think that was one of the learnings from the first shared statement, that perhaps there were too many action points included in it, and then, when you look at it now, some of it seems a bit out of date. So, that's what we wanted, was a more strategic document that sets out the overarching things we want to work on together, but wasn't going to look out of date in five years' time.

Okay. Thank you for that. That concludes, I think, the points I wanted to ask, Chair.

Diolch, Mick. I wanted to check: one of the witnesses that gave evidence to us last week, they mentioned that there was a meeting in January about the action plan. Is another iteration of the plan going to be coming as a result of that, or is it just talking through how it's going to work?

So, what we always do at official level is we usually meet about twice a year. We haven't a date confirmed yet, but, certainly early in the year, I think Welsh Government officials will probably come to Dublin for a meeting, and I'll attend that as well. And we basically look at, 'Okay, what are the things we need to achieve for the rest of the year, but also between early next year and the next annual Ireland-Wales forum?' And we will set out at that point the joint things we want to work on.

I saw Iain Quick, the head of the Welsh Government office in Dublin last week at the British-Irish Council. We didn't have a time to have a proper chat, because, as you can imagine, there was a lot going on, but he and I plan to have a call as well before Christmas, because we're both working on a lot of things that we can bring together. I've had some really good conversations with people and other stakeholders in the last couple of days as well where it looks like there's real potential for really good joint projects. So, yes, so we will be meeting early next year.

Brilliant. Okay, thank you ever so much. Just before we move on to Lee, I was going to ask—you've already addressed this somewhat—about the fact that literary co-operation had been quite an explicit part of the previous shared statement, and it isn't in the same way now. Now, I take on board the fact that you've said that the first shared statement was, as you put it, a compendium of existing co-operation. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it that the literary links between the nations are so intrinsic that they would no longer need to be name-checked in the same way?

Yes, I think it's more a question of presentation, because there are a couple of references to literature and writers. So, I don't think there's any sort of downgrading of literary links at all. I think there's real value in those, actually. In the last couple of days, I've had a couple of good conversations, and I'm due a few more conversations, with organisations in Wales involved in literature, and I think there could be—. I hesitate to say it, but there could be some quite interesting Ireland-Wales literature events next year, hopefully. Nothing finalised yet, so I'm not going to make promises that I can't deliver, but I think literary co-operation is something we really would like to work more on. I had some ideas for things that weren't included in the shared statement because, on our side, we still need to work on just the mechanisms for how we make them work. Again, with things like funding and grant money, you need someone to administer it—I'm not the person who's going to be judging what writer or literary project is deserving of a grant. But I think there's plenty of scope for co-operation, and I think it'll definitely feature in the years ahead.

That's wonderful. Whenever there is an update on those events, please let us know. I know a number of us will be very interested.

Thanks, yes. I want to ask about a recommendation this committee has made in the past about the role of the language commissioners in revising the shared statement, if you can just tell us a little bit about how that worked in practice this time around. 

As part of the broader stakeholder engagement? So, my colleagues—

Were they specifically engaged, I guess, is what I'm asking.

Yes. So, my colleagues in Dublin met with the senior officials from the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, which is the department that is the key interlocutor with An Coimisinéir Teanga, the Irish language commissioner. So, the language that's used in the shared statement is designed, as I said earlier, to be high level and inclusive, and it was approved by the officials on both sides. So, we definitely see that as including the language commissioners. I think one of the learnings, again, from not so much the preparation of the shared statement, but just the last five years—. One of the things we've discovered is that we knew there was close co-operation on the Irish and Welsh languages, but we didn't actually know how deep that co-operation is. So, we were aware of the policy co-operation at Government officials level, we were aware of the co-operation between the language commissioners, but, actually, there's so much more, and there's potential for so much more. So, that's what we would like to see. We'd like to see that co-operation between the language commissioners, between officials, continue, and I think there's no question that that wouldn't continue regardless of what we put in the shared statement. But we also see potential to work together on encouraging daily use of the language, very practical measures to encourage language usage. So, that's one of the things we'll be focusing on in the years ahead, as well as that positive policy co-operation.

Just so I understand, you're going to be specifically including the language commissioners in the statement?

They're not explicitly mentioned, but we certainly envisage that their co-operation is included within the broader language that's there. We don't really need to give them a target, I think, to work together. They work together really well.

Fair point. Then I just want to ask you about looking ahead, and what you think, because, obviously, this term is coming to an end, and the work of this committee will finish. In terms of future committees where we might make some recommendations on where Senedd Members focus on Wales-Ireland relations in the future, where do you think are the best areas for further work?

Well, I hesitate to make recommendations to a committee, but I think, from the perspective of the two Governments, the areas where we see that we really need to focus our efforts are, first of all, on energy. There's huge potential. We've spoken about energy and renewable energy at every Ireland-Wales forum, I think, and as we see the development of offshore wind becoming more real—. We now have ESB Energy as one of the companies involved in Gwynt Glas, the floating offshore wind project off the coast of Wales. So, we need to continue to work together on things like ports' supply chain skills so that we can make that floating offshore wind a reality, and something that benefits both Ireland and Wales.

I think education and research innovation is another area where there's potential. That's part of why we have found some funding for that area. It's the area where there was so much activity before the UK left the EU, where you really see that shortfall from INTERREG. For us, we see that the connections are still there at that senior academic level. So, it's trying to keep those going and trying to build the new ones.

And then, I think the third one, actually, is language, where, in a sense, the co-operation on language is because there is so much co-operation, there is so much benefit, there is so much to be learned. Ireland really sees Wales as a model and as an example in its promotion of the Welsh language. We want to learn from that. There is huge enthusiasm in Ireland for the Irish language. So, everything we can learn from Wales and Wales's experience over, I suppose, the last 20 years or so, we'd like to learn that. There was a great visit last week from Dublin City Council, who had a group of councillors and officials visiting Cardiff. They were really impressed with what they saw here. I've spoken to some of them since. They have further projects in mind.

Those are the three big areas where we really see the huge benefits of co-operation. That's not to say, though—. I mean, all six areas are important. And I suppose, for the Senedd, what I've found so inspiring and so wonderful over the last couple of years is the development of those close links between the Senedd and the Oireachtas. There were links that were always there through the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, but through the work of this committee visiting Ireland, the Ceann Comhairle visiting here, and the meeting with a cross-committee group, which some of you participated in, and the return visit then to Dublin, those kinds of inter-parliamentary links are so valuable and so helpful to Government as well in terms of having that parliamentary support and that parliamentary scrutiny for the work that we're doing.

So, I really hope that the next Senedd will continue that work. I've engaged with Senedd Members from across all political parties in this Senedd, and I think the debate on this committee's report—the last report two years ago—I found that really encouraging, because what I heard from across the political spectrum in Wales was encouragement for working together with Ireland. So, I really hope we'll see that continue.

Okay. Diolch, Chair. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. That was, I think, my favourite debate of the entire Senedd because I got to quote Yeats, I think, 15 times. It was epic—for me. Is there anything further that you had hoped to bring up today that you would like to leave us with, because you are one of the central figures who has helped to shape Wales-Ireland relations in recent years? As a committee, our thanks to you for that is considerable. So, thank you for the work that you have done in that. Are there any further reflections that you would want to make or anything that you had hoped would come up this morning that has not? 

Well, just to say 'thank you very much', and to thank you and all the Members for your engagement. It's been really wonderful over the past couple of years to have that close relationship. I think the willingness of all the Members of the Senedd to meet with our visiting Ministers, politicians, diplomats, officials from London and Dublin as well has been marvellous. I think Wales is a wonderful place for an Irish diplomat to be posted, frankly. I've had a fantastic time over the last three years. Everywhere I have sought to engage, I've been met with an open door, enthusiasm and encouragement. So, it's great to be here and it's great to have that co-operation, and I think what we need to do is keep working together. Things can only get better.

Well, on that very encouraging note— 

—for you to check that it is a fair record of what's been said. 

Thank you ever so much again. 

Séamas, if I could ask you to introduce yourself, and I believe that you have some opening remarks you'd like to make as well.

Thank you very much.

A Chathaoirligh, agus a Bhaill an tSeanaid, mar Choimisinéir Teanga fáiltím roimh an deis teacht i láthair an Choiste Cultúir, Cumarsáide, Breatnaise, Spóirt agus Caidrimh Idirnáisiúnta le labhairt faoin ábhar tábhachtach, an caidreamh idir an Bhreatain Bheag agus Éire.

Chair and Members of Senedd Cymru, as An Comisinéir Teanga, I very much welcome the opportunity to address this committee on the important matters of Wales-Ireland relations. Ireland and Wales are woven together by a rich historical tapestry of economic, linguistic and cultural connections that span thousands of years. The Ireland-Wales shared statement 2030 serves to deepen the long-standing collaboration between our nations. This statement reinforces important commitments that are essential to both my role as An Comisinéir Teanga, but also to my counterpart in Wales, the Welsh Language Commissioner, Efa Gruffudd Jones. As language commissioners, we are united in our commitment to safeguarding and promoting language rights, which are essential for cultivating the vibrancy of our national languages. It is important to highlight the commitment referenced on page 16 of the Ireland-Wales shared statement 2030 in particular, which articulates the significance of the common challenges that we face in protecting and promoting the increased use of our national languages within wider bilingual communities.

I wish to take this opportunity to acknowledge the enduring partnership between Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga here in Ireland and the Welsh Language Commissioner's office. The collaboration between our offices traces back to the terms of the inaugural language commissioners in both jurisdictions, Seán Ó Cuirreáin and Meri Huws respectively. This co-operation further developed during the tenures of my predecessor, Rónán Ó Domhnaill, and that of the Welsh Language Commissioner, Aled Roberts, who is fondly remembered after his untimely passing. Presently, our offices are steadfast in our commitment to working collaboratively, fostering an environment of knowledge sharing and mutual support. Through our bilateral relationship and our engagement with the International Association of Language Commissioners, of which I am currently serving as chair, we reaffirm our collective dedication to promoting and supporting language rights for the communities that we serve. It's important to recognise the distinct roles of An Comisinéir Teanga and the Welsh Language Commissioner with respect to language rights and language promotion in our respective jurisdictions. Unlike the Welsh Language Commissioner, my office does not hold a statutory brief in formulating and implementing policies or strategies for the promotion of the Irish language. This critical brief rests with the Minister and Government Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht.

The enactment of the Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021, which amended the original Official Languages Act of 2003, has resulted in notable achievements and milestones in strengthening the language rights of the Irish-speaking community. The amended 2021 language rights legislation has led to a significant rise in advertising in Irish by public bodies. A recently published audit report by my office indicated that public bodies spent €19 million on advertising in Irish in 2024. This new statutory provision greatly enhances the visibility and usage of the Irish language across all media platforms. The Government of Ireland launched the first ever statutory national plan for Irish language public services in the history of the Irish state in October 2024. The main aim of this plan is to set out a clear pathway for the public sector in Ireland to build capacity and significantly improve public services in the Irish language.

In my view, the long-term success of this plan depends on two cornerstones. Firstly, the language standard system that will prescribe the new public services that must be provided in Irish, and the staff language proficiency levels required in Irish. Secondly, the amended legislation prescribes that 20 per cent of public service recruits between 2022 and December 2030 must be proficient in Irish. As we anticipate the forthcoming publication of the first draft language standards in Ireland, there is a valuable body of knowledge to be drawn from the Welsh Language Commissioner's notable accomplishments in overseeing the successful implementation of language standards in Wales. For public bodies to have sufficient staff competent in their national languages, systemic workforce planning is a prerequisite. I welcome the opportunity to discuss these cornerstones and broader opportunities, as also covered in my written submission, in both Irish and English, to the committee, to further strengthen our collaboration, advancing the language rights of our community. Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus a bhaill. Thank you, Chair, and assembly Members.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you ever so much, Séamas. That's a really useful overview to set the scene at the start, so thank you ever so much. I'll come straight into questions, and I'll start with you, Séamas, if I may. I wanted to ask you about the importance, as you see it, of Wales-Ireland relations. I was really struck by the language that you used in that statement there about how we have been woven together in a tapestry. Could you talk us through the importance, as you see it, of the relationships between the nations?

Well, our national languages are an inherent trait of our culture, and I'm very pleased to see the emphasis that's placed in the Ireland-Wales statement for 2030 on not only the promotion of language, but the strengthening of language rights. As An Comisinéir, through my ongoing relationship with the Welsh Language Commissioner's office, we see very practical steps that we can take in terms of knowledge sharing and strategic insights into some of those cornerstones that I emphasised in my opening remarks, specifically the Welsh context. The Welsh Language Commissioner has a very strong record in implementing language tools as a strategic tool for improving language rights. The key aspect here, Chair, is that, from my point of view, and through the bilateral work between our offices and that of the International Association of Language Commissioners, we are strongly of the opinion that language rights are a key component of sustaining our national languages and enhancing the vibrancy of that language within our jurisdictions.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you ever so much, Séamas.

I want to discuss the—. Well, Brexit is the subject. We've received evidence on the impact of Brexit. In your views, what opportunities, limitations or challenges have there been for language co-operation post Brexit?

I can talk about that. I think in the challenges around Brexit, what came to the fore was the importance of inter-governmental forums such as the British-Irish Council to address the challenges that have arisen across a broad spectrum—whether it's climate change, economic trade, of course, and in terms of co-operation around culture and language. Again, I think it's very clear, it speaks very clearly, within the Welsh and Irish statement for 2030, the emphasis that is placed on the promotion of our national languages.

Practically, in the International Association of Language Commissioners, we have commissioners from Canada, Catalonia and the Basque region. Those different jurisdictions have their own challenges, whether it's in relation to Brexit or, for example, US-Canada trade, economic relationships around tariffs and so on. There would be implications there to mitigate risk around budget allocations depending on the economic situation.

I very much welcome the fact that the importance of language rights and language promotion is being discussed in the context of inter-governmental relationships, bilateral relationships. When that is the case, it's much easier to make the argument of sufficient funding for our respective roles within our jurisdictions. In terms of my role here, I would work very closely with the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. In the overall context, the Government has a clear strategy on how to address the challenges of breakfast—of Brexit—which would inform our challenges around that.

Diolch, Séamas. You are not the first or, no doubt, the last person to have said that one word instead of 'Brexit' there. Diolch, Séamas, that's incredibly useful.

Have there been any gaps in resources or anything to that tune in terms of our journey towards Cymraeg 2050? Obviously, we're all subscribed to that. We want 1 million Welsh speakers by that year. Is there any arm or area of international relations that can help us get to that goal? Or is it something that we can do ourselves quite autonomously? Or can that rely on some improved international relations in that regard?

Diolch, Lowri. Séamas, is there anything that you wanted to add on this?

In terms of the national plan for public services in Irish, the issue of resources is a significant one, because, for the first time, we have a statutory plan that will look at the national level and how the public service will develop capacity to improve significantly public services in Irish. There are the two cornerstones that I mentioned: the language standards on the one hand, and the other is a sufficient pool of human resources with appropriate competency in the Irish language to deliver that

If we look at the scale of the public service in Ireland, around 400,000 people work there. On average, approximately 12,000 new recruits come in annually. In terms of one in five having competency in Irish, you're talking about building significant capacity and a requirement for additional resources to undertake a statutory requirement on that scale. That's why collaboration between the different arms of the state involved in the promotion of language, including my office with regard to language rights implementation, is required.

I've set that out clearly in a commentary that I recently published as part of my new functions. Under the revised 2021 legislation, I have a function to comment on the work of a statutory advisory committee that was set up by the Minister to oversee the implementation of the national plan. In terms of resourcing that at the appropriate level, without question, the preparation, planning and scaling up to that capacity for one in five recruits is a significant challenge, but I feel that it’s very achievable.

As I mentioned in my opening address, the statutory remit for policy formulation and the strategic development of the Irish language, promoting it, enhancing it, doesn’t fall within my remit, as it does in that of my counterpart in Wales. But, nevertheless, we’re aware of it through the work with the Welsh commissioner’s office, also through attending the St David’s Day celebrations, and other very important communications that happen. Again, through my functions, through my annual report, through the commentary that I mentioned earlier, and the work of the advisory committee, through the conferences that we run with the International Association of Language Commissioners, that co-operation, the involvement, the importance of the language commissioner’s role in informing public discourse and informing policy formulation is nevertheless a very important aspect of my work that we take very seriously and commit significant resources to.

I think there is scope within the statement to acknowledge and to look at the potential of building on the collaboration outside of the work of the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. We also have An Foras Teanga and Foras na Gaeilge, specifically set up under the Good Friday agreement of 1999 to promote the use of the Irish language on the island of Ireland. In terms of language planning nationally, that was put on a statutory footing in 2012 with the Gaeltacht Act 2012. The Gaeltachtaí are the official designated areas where the Irish language is the community language, and the brief for that rests with Údarás na Gaeltachta, the regional development agency for economic, social and cultural development. So, I think the work of those agencies could be included within the scope of the statement, and I think doing that would enhance the discourse and the opportunities for further collaboration, because each organisation has their own speciality in terms of their brief, and have very important contributions to make to our overall goal of promoting and sustaining our national languages. So, I think that discourse, to look at the scope and expanding the scope of the statement, merits examination.

Again, through the Chair, similar to the context for the Wales-Ireland statement, that brief wouldn't necessarily land on my desk. Nevertheless, the co-operation and the brief, the remit of those organisations that I mentioned, are very important in the overall application, the overall strategy of the Irish Government in not only promoting the Irish language, but building close relationships between our countries. Coming back to the British-Irish Council, there are eight administrations involved in that, and we have different contexts and challenges around the demographics of language use in terms of the size of our populations, the challenges that we face around digital technology, artificial intelligence. And I think that there is potential, or scope, within that framework to look at the key challenges and the key opportunities that we face, both at a national level and at a regional level. So, again, through the Chair, I think that that's something that definitely merits further exploration.

I was going to ask some questions about funding and resources, but you dealt with those quite extensively early on, so I don't really want to pursue those and repeat that area, because we're aware that there are, obviously, funding challenges, but also resources are fundamental to achieving many objectives. So, I'm going to go off script a little bit and just ask about two areas that I'm concerned about.

All of the things that are done in terms of promotion, development, giving rights and status to language and things that can be done jointly and that we can learn mutually between Wales and Ireland are obviously important, but at the end of the day, it seems that one of the biggest challenges is motivation to use. We saw when we visited the Basque Country the massive progress made after the Franco period in terms of the restoration of people's ability to speak, but of course the default language is reverting back predominantly, for example, to Spanish, and it's the same sort of challenge there, unless people in their hearts and minds seriously want to use the language and are motivated to do it. So, I'm just wondering, in terms of Wales and Ireland, what you think can be done in terms of that motivation, because I think that it's a major challenge even within Wales as well. What can be done there? And then the second question, I'll put it in as well, so if you just take it in two parts, is: if there are one or two key things that really needed to be done and achieved, what would you identify them as being between Wales and Ireland? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. 

Séamas, would you like to go first?

I think that the questions from the Member, through the Chair, are very, very relevant in terms of motivating speakers to use public services. In some contexts, we find a pushback from service providers that the demand isn't there, but unfortunately our experience, as we know through the nature and level of complaints that we receive, is that the standard in some contexts in Ireland at the moment, the services through Irish are of a low standard. For example, I'm very impressed with the latest performance report by the Welsh Language Commissioner that highlights key services like websites, official forms, social media posts—very contemporary services in sustaining any language—that they are reaching levels of around 90 per cent. So, in terms of motivating speakers, if the public services available in our national languages are of a high standard, I think that that's a key tool.

I referenced earlier the different arms of the state and how language rights implementation is a key tool within the toolkit of our states, of our Governments, to achieve vibrancy in our language, and, of course, alignment with the strategy for promoting learning, using the language. Something that I've emphasised very much in my commentary on the work of the advisory committee for the national plan, the first of its type, is the importance of the third level university sector and that there are sufficient graduates with high competency in the Irish language in disciplines, such as corporate governance, language planning, human resource management. The importance of motivating students to undertake those programmes is that, if we don't change the psyche of corporate governance within public organisations around the importance of delivering public services in our national languages, it's difficult to envisage the improvement at a national level that we require of the organisations.

I mentioned earlier Foras na Gaeilge and Údarás na Gaeltachta, the department. They have key strategies in terms of promoting and sustaining the Irish language within the Gaeltacht and other supporting organisations. But, of course, the education system doesn't start at third level, but at pre-school, primary and secondary, and at the moment we're looking at the specific provision at secondary level, so that you have those prospective third level students to work in the areas that we have.

In terms of key points, the national plan is the framework in Ireland. I referenced the language standards, the implementation, the invaluable repository of knowledge that rests within the Welsh jurisdiction, and how language standards have been implemented, the challenges and the opportunities. So, I very much look forward to working closely with my counterparts in Wales on that.

In terms of the wider picture, the national co-ordination, how do we co-ordinate the improvement in public services in our respective national languages in that context? What are the resources, the structures that are required to ensure that? So, that's why I've emphasised so much of what I call the cornerstones of future knowledge sharing and strategic insights—the systematic workforce planning being a key one, and that must be fully aligned with the language standards.

Thank you. Lowri.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. That concludes the points I wanted to raise, Chair.

Diolch. Just to briefly ask about future support you think you might be offered by the Governments to ensure your co-operation and what future Senedd Members might focus on to improve Wales-Ireland relations.

Diolch, Lowri. Séamas.

Thank you, through the Chair. In terms of my office's remit and resourcing, quickly, support has been forthcoming from the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht in terms of funding for the office and the appointment of new staff. We're going from 13 members of staff to 19 in the near future. In terms of collaboration, there's been very positive development in Northern Ireland recently, with the appointment of an Irish Language Commissioner and a commissioner for the Ulster-Scots, as well as an office for identity and cultural expression.

In terms of some of the key points that we covered earlier, going forward, the shared statement, I would be very open to an opportunity with our Welsh counterparts to contribute to the discourse on the formulation of policy and future relations going forward. As Lowri has mentioned, the International Association of Language Commissioners I think has a wealth of knowledge that we could draw on there in terms of challenges around resourcing, policy formulation, strengthening language rights, which is at the core of that association. So, I think this discussion has been very, very positive, and I think it opens new doors for specific possibilities, going forward, of strengthening our collaboration, sharing our knowledge and insights into the key aspect of our work in promoting our national languages and strengthening the language rights of those communities that we serve. So, I'd be very open to further opportunities in that space going forward. Thank you very much.

Diolch.

Just to reiterate, Chair and Assembly Members, thank you for this opportunity to convey matters that are very important to us in Ireland, in improving public services in Irish, in strengthening language rights, and in building on the very, very positive relationships between our two countries. I'm very confident that, going forward, there are significant opportunities for further co-operation for that key goal of meeting the contemporary needs of the language communities that we serve.

Go raibh míle, míle maith agaibh. Tá mé an-bhuíoch as an deis seo. Tá mé an-bhuíoch don Chathaoirleach agus do bhaill an choiste seo as a comhoibriú agus beidh mise agus mo fhoireann in Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga in Éirinn ar fáil le cibé comhoibriú táimid in ann a thabhairt a chur ar fáil. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Tá fáilte romhat.