National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual.

Before we go any further, I'd like to open the meeting by paying tribute to our friend and colleague Hefin David. Hefin was passionate about improving the lives of children and young people in Wales. It was a clear, consistent thread throughout his professional life as an academic before politics, his time as a councillor, and then as a Senedd Member for his home community, Caerphilly. He was a particularly strong advocate for children and young people with learning disabilities and additional needs. He used his own experiences to advocate for positive change for children and young people in our predecessor committee, as a part of this committee, in the Senedd Chamber and beyond for almost a decade. On behalf of all of us here today, I send our deepest sympathies to Vikki, his adored daughters, Caitlin and Holly, his parents, sister, his friends and family. Thank you, Hefin, for your time. We will really miss you.

This meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? I can see there are not.

So, we'll move on now to agenda item 3, which is the final evidence session for the inquiry on teacher recruitment and retention. So, I'd like to introduce the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and thank her for her written evidence. Could the officials please introduce themselves?

Yes, of course. Good morning, Chair and Members. I'm Christopher Warner and I'm the deputy director for the school practitioner division.

Bore da. I'm Awen Penri and I'm leading on the strategic education workforce plan in the division.

Thank you very much. I'll now hand over to Members. We have a series of questions. I'd like to start with Cefin, please.

Diolch, Cefin. Can I say that I really welcome this inquiry into recruitment and retention? Members are aware that we are developing a strategic education workforce plan. Officials have worked really hard on that, and we will be undertaking engagement with the sector in the weeks ahead now, with a view to publishing that at some point after Christmas. I really hope that we can take this opportunity for the committee to inform the content of the plan.

If I can come to Cefin's specific question, I think it's important to note that challenges with recruitment and retention are not unique to Wales. This is a global challenge that we are facing. Last week, I was very pleased to welcome international delegates to Cardiff as part of the annual Atlantic Rim Collaboratory summit. We had an opportunity there to discuss our shared interests and our challenges with recruiting and retaining teachers. You'll have heard in the evidence that our ITE recruitment for primary is robust. The challenges that we are facing are with secondary. Our understanding is that the issue isn't ITE courses, but with the attractiveness of secondary teaching as a career.

Now, we know that there's a combination of factors that influences students' decisions to go into teaching. These include career options, which include pay, and work conditions, such as flexible working, the opportunities that are available to STEM graduates, which compete with teaching, as well as how attractive secondary schools are as places of work. I'm also really aware of the importance of the pipeline of graduates in ITE. So, challenges with meeting ITE targets don't just reflect the attractiveness of becoming a secondary teacher, but also the potential number of graduates with the subject expertise that we have to recruit into ITE. That's obviously particularly a challenge with STEM, where there are other opportunities for them. We've also seen challenges because of low entries into some A-level examinations, such as Welsh, and lower entries into subject specialist degrees are also limiting how successful we are in recruiting into secondary.

In Welsh medium, this is further compounded by the number of graduates that are confident Welsh speakers within their subject specialism. There is an independent annual omnibus survey, commissioned by us, that shows that, amongst 18 to 40-year-olds who have a degree, over 50 per cent would consider teaching as a career, and that it's particularly attractive to Welsh speakers. The motivations in 2025 were: enjoying working with children and young people, making a difference to children and young people, good pay and conditions, and generous holidays. But then the converse of that is that some people are put off by the fact that it's stressful, there are perceptions of poor pay and conditions, and heavy workload.

As I said, these are not issues that are unique to Wales. We're grappling with them across the world in terms of teaching, and I'm very open to listening to the committee's views about what more we can do in this space.

Diolch. You mentioned there the schemes that you've put in place to try and recruit, or at least into teacher training, students into priority subject areas. For example, you mentioned STEM, foreign languages, Welsh and so on, and the Iaith Athrawon Yfory scheme to get more Welsh-medium potential teachers into the system, and a minority ethnic scheme as well. Could you tell the committee, in your opinion, how successful these schemes have been? How do you know how successful they are?

Okay. Thanks, Cefin. We review our incentive package annually, and I'm currently considering the options for that at present. There is a wealth of research that is being conducted across the UK on the efficacy of incentives. We had our own research conducted during 2019—research by the National Foundation for Educational Research on England's incentives, and research conducted here in Wales by the Education Policy Institute. But the evidence is actually mixed, and we'll be in a better position in Wales to make a robust judgment on their use, once our current evaluation and research has been completed and reported in 2026.

Now, in 2019, we commissioned the Education Workforce Council to undertake three pieces of research for us on recruitment of student teachers and incentives. They did teacher training incentives in Wales, international policy context, comparison of teacher training incentives in Wales and England, and graduate recruitment teaching and other professions. But, again, the findings of these studies were inconclusive and suggested that while incentives were one of the levers, there were stronger arguments around the attractiveness of the profession, continued support for early career development, and also opportunities for progression. I'm aware that the committee had evidence highlighting the financial difference between the incentives that we pay for priority subjects and those available in England, and there is a significant difference. I'm very firmly of the view that were we to remove incentives, that would not be the right thing to do, and I'm very keen to look at what more we can do in this space, mindful of the budget constraints that I face. So, we are looking at incentives again. We've begun an evaluation of ITE policy, and that is going to look specifically at the effectiveness of incentives, and we're expecting the final report on that to be available in 2026.

Now, I know that the committee also took evidence from the EWC that referred to some recent work that they'd done for us on this. That involved a data-linking exercise to review student teachers who had received an incentive and then their retention. We provided information going back to 2014 on the students who'd received an incentive and the EWC matched those records against their data. But, although we received the linked data set, officials are currently working with the EWC as there were issues and gaps in the data received. Once that data set is as accurate and as robust as it can be, we'll be able to analyse that, and I hope to report on that analysis this autumn. So, it's a mixed picture.

Just on that last point, then, these schemes have been running for a few years, and there's up to £25,000 for each potential student, depending on which category of support they get. So, what you're saying is that there is no data available at this current time to show whether these incentives have been successful or not.

I'm saying there's a wealth of research that has shown that it is inconclusive. If you look at England, even though they have got much more generous priority subject incentives than us, they're also still experiencing challenges with recruiting into STEM. We have done this data-linking exercise with the EWC, but, as I just said, there are some challenges with the data that we need to work through, to make sure that it is robust, and that will give us a clearer picture. But it is really complex to tie this to something as straightforward as just incentives.

Thank you. I know that you've taken particular evidence from the coleg on this. We do have a national model by which we allocate ITE places. We've got a national model in the Government, which is called the national supply—

The TPSM, the teacher planning supply model.

The teacher planning supply model, and then that is fed in to the EWC, who allocate the specific numbers. That model that we have does take account of a range of options, but what we don't have—. You could effectively say that we are commissioning places based on that model, which is based on evidence and data. But what we don't have is really good local information, and one of the things that we want to do through the workforce plan is work closely with local authorities to get better local data, which would enable us, then, to be more targeted in the approach that we're taking to plug gaps. So, that will be an aspect of work that we will take forward through the workforce plan.

Diolch.

Okay, thank you. Before I hand over to Vaughan, I'd like to draw the committee's attention to our visitors from Norway in the public gallery—welcome. Vaughan, please.

Thank you. I'm going to follow up with some questions about teacher training and how it's delivered. Some of the evidence we had, unsurprisingly from teacher training providers, was that delivering ITE is actually expensive, particularly depending on the courses. So, have you given any consideration to providing expensive subject premiums for this subject, because there are different funding routes available in other areas, for example you'll know from being a Minister in the health department, as I was at some point, that there are different models? So, is that something that you're considering? And then I'll have a follow-on question, because I think that money is a subject that we'll keep on coming back to.

Thanks, Vaughan. I am aware of the ITE partnerships' concerns in this space. I went to see the Swansea ITE partnership back in the summer, and this was an issue that they raised with me. I really value the work that they're doing. I want our students to have access to top-quality ITE, and I don't want finance to be a barrier to that. So, we are now looking at options about how we can support that sustainable provision of ITE by higher education providers, by providing additional financial support for placement costs. I'll make a final decision on this ahead of the budget.

As you know, this is a challenging time for university finance in general, and we've also asked Medr to undertake an overview of subject demand provision and distribution in higher education in Wales, and to consider where interventions might be required to ensure the continuation of strategically important subject areas. We're expecting a report on that in the autumn.

Part of the evidence they gave was that, essentially, as the cost of subjects rise, if the money doesn't rise, then you're effectively cross-subsidising with other streams of the university. And that then gets complicated, doesn't it, because students are paying some of that through their fees, not all of the costs, but through some of it. And actually, if some of it is going to other parts of the institution, you're looking at a hole that is challenged, and whether, actually, we are then getting what we'd like from the courses that, as you say, are strategically important for the whole country, not just by subject area. So, this partly goes into the way that higher education is having to reconsider its finances and the subjects where it has student numbers in, and then the whole question of funding. So, in the response that you expect to provide and the consideration, I assume you're going to take into account the broader picture in further and higher education finance, and then what you're able to do if—. It's one thing to be minded, and say, 'I'd like to put money in', because all of us would like to put money into a whole range of areas, but how does that affect the wider budgetary considerations that you've got to manage in your brief?

Well, obviously, I'm operating within a constrained budget, and that always involves priorities. I try and make those decisions based on the values that are driving us as a Government. I think there are two issues here. There are the expensive subjects, generally, but there are also the particular issues of additional costs of providing ITE because of the school placements, and that's what I've been discussing with, in particular, Swansea. But I know that it's an issue that's been raised regularly with Vikki Howells. It's part of the consideration that I'm taking of the draft budget, and I hope to be able to say something a bit more about that then. The Medr work will give us a clearer picture on the expensive subjects more generally, because we don't want to have cold spots where young people can't study those subjects across Wales, because that also has an impact on recruitment to ITE, because ITE partnerships are very active in promoting ITE to their students who they're educating anyway.

Okay, thank you. I'm going to write to you about a rather more involved question about how the UCAS offer is delivered around its website. So, I'm not going to ask that question, but there will be a written question afterwards, if that's okay.

I’m aware the committee has had evidence about UCAS, so I'm happy to have that letter.

Great, thank you. We've heard something about subject knowledge and what that looks like in ITE, so the point about having a relevant degree qualification. Again, it's always a comparison with the system in England, where they appear to have some payments available to enhance subject knowledge during an ITE course. Is that something that you've considered? Could we have this balance that, with people who want to be teachers and have a passion for teaching and subject knowledge in an area that they'd like to go into, actually the degree requirement helps to get those people into teaching, and whether actually there's a way to enhance their knowledge during the course of the qualification to become a teacher? You've plainly taken lots into account from the evidence that we've heard, so I am interested in whether you’ve given consideration to whether that's something we could do, and what the potential value of that would be. Because, obviously, I hope there'd be some evidence about whether that different system in England is paying dividends in people who are becoming teachers and staying in the profession.

Thanks, Vaughan. As the committee is aware, under the existing criteria, there's a requirement for entrants to hold an undergraduate degree that has at least 50 per cent relevance to their subject of study. We do recognise that this may exclude students who hold degrees in subjects such as engineering, and we're exploring how we can amend the 50 per cent degree relevance, but at the same time ensuring that students do have sufficient subject knowledge and skills to undertake a programme of ITE in the relevant subject. We have to absolutely maintain quality here for our young people who are being educated.

We are going to explore the issue of subject knowledge enhancement further with ITE partnerships and look at whether this is something that we could develop nationally across Wales. But one of the things that we're working on is an enhanced early career support offer for our teachers, and we're looking at whether it might be possible to introduce subject-specific professional learning as part of that. So, that would ensure that early career teachers are supported during the first three to four years of teaching, especially if they're required to teach subjects that aren't the ones that they initially trained in.

The committee is aware that our new professional learning and leadership body, Dysgu, is up and running now, and I’m very keen for them to progress that, working with ITE partnerships. I think it’s worth noting as well that we have had a similar approach to subject knowledge enhancement in our approach to the Welsh language skills of student teachers before they start their postgraduate certificate in education. This summer, 40 student teachers participated in a two-week Welsh course to develop their skills at foundation and higher levels. And they all completed the course, and, brilliantly, some of them have decided to undertake their PGCE, now, through the medium of Welsh.

That’s really encouraging. But I’m interested in this, not just because I’ve heard evidence, but thinking about, if you like, traditional undergraduates who leave school and go into a course, but also second and third career people who come into the profession, and that point about having already had a career, with practical knowledge to apply. And further education really value them. In fact, they want people who have done something, typically, in the area that they teach. And so, as well as the subject skills enhancement, are you looking at how you think about those second and third career teachers, as well as, if you like, the traditional young undergraduates coming in, about how to think about the knowledge they’ve got and the relevance of a qualification that could be quite old by the time that they actually get into the workforce?

Well, I think we’re open to looking at the range of options in this space, but with the caveat that we have got an evidence-based ITE programme that is accredited to maintain a high consistent quality for everyone that’s doing it. So, we would have to make sure that that was in place as well, really.

Thank you. And my—. Oh, sorry. 

Could I just ask my supplementary to that? Just following up, we did talk about flexibility as well. So, if there’s somebody who’s had a career, like you said, as an engineer, or in art or DT—design technology—and they’re able to come in just one day a week, or two days a week for teaching, would they have to have a certain level of qualification to have to do that? And can we offer more flexibility? And then I think we heard as well that, to actually go into a career of teaching, and to get those qualifications, it’s quite difficult to have time off work to be able to train, to give it up to train. So, could there be more flexibility regarding learning to get that qualification?

Well, in relation to your first question, obviously we’ve got to maintain standards, haven’t we, really? So, that would be something that would have to be in place. But we have made available opportunities in Wales through the salaried PGCE that we’ve got. We’ve also got a part-time route. I myself have been into schools where I’ve met with people who started as teaching assistants and have gone on to become qualified teachers as well. So, we are making those opportunities available. As part of the workforce plan, we’re keen to look at other opportunities. And I think it’s worth noting that England has a plethora of opportunities for people to go into teaching, but they are still experiencing challenges with recruitment and retention. What we want to do is maintain the high-quality provision and the value of our qualifications in Wales. We have got those options there already—the Open University delivers those options for us—but we’re looking to build on those, looking at things like apprenticeships and things like that as part of the workforce plan.

Thank you. 

I’ve got a bit of a broader question. Now, obviously you’re aware of the challenges that schools are having in recruiting teachers into Welsh-medium generally, and so that’s why it was good to hear, in particular, that you’ve got a cohort of people that are going to do their PGCE through Welsh because of the additional support that’s been provided. But also there are wider shortage subjects—STEM, typically, but more than that as well. And so I’m interested in, not just your awareness of it, because you’re plainly aware, and this inquiry is about lots of those areas, but your view on the particular challenges that you see in some parts of the country. So, we heard evidence about the challenge of recruiting people into rural areas, and into less advantaged school communities as well. There was some interesting evidence and suggestions about potentially having different salaries available in different areas, and I think there’d be an interesting negotiation to run about how to do those. I’m genuinely interested in your view, not just on the challenges, but whether you expect the workforce plan, and your broader look at terms and conditions, to be able to be part of the answer, because I accept that this is only part of the answer to a range of issues that affect recruitment and retention.

Okay. Well, thanks, Vaughan. There are quite a few issues there, and I'm assuming that there will be questions specifically on Welsh-medium. I am really worried, and I know that the committee had some really stark figures from the Education Workforce Council on Welsh-medium recruitment, and I'm very happy to say a bit of a wider thing about that if it would be helpful.

As you've highlighted, there are other challenges. So, for example, in rural areas, we know that we are seeing challenges there as well, and the data shows us that. So, for example, the highest average number of applications per advertised post in 2023-24 was in our more urban areas—Cardiff, 15.4 applicants, followed by Newport and the Vale of Glamorgan and Swansea—whereas the lowest number of applications was in Ceredigion at three, followed by Powys, Denbighshire, Pembrokeshire and the Isle of Anglesey. Now, there are obviously issues that we're aware of in west Wales, because, obviously, we lost the ITE partnership in Aberystwyth, and there are issues with young people, say, who might be in Cardiff, not necessarily wanting to do their clinical practice in schools in places that are a long way from where they're studying. So, we are working with ITE partnerships to look at ways of addressing the workforce issues that face rural schools, and Ceredigion and Powys have formed a mid-Wales partnership, and they're currently working with Cardiff Met to explore the possibility of a blended programme to support ITE recruitment in schools across Wales, and that would support both the English- and Welsh-medium sectors and provide qualified teachers then, hopefully, from within this geographical area. But the work that I mentioned with local authorities that we're planning to do, where we work closely with them to really drill down into what the challenge is, is really important, because we don't have that data at a really detailed local level at the moment, so we haven't got live data on the number of vacancies, we haven't got an understanding of local-level trends in terms of retention, reasons for leaving the profession, the age profile of the workforce. So, we need to do that work with local authorities.

In terms of disadvantaged areas, I think this is a very important thing. We know that some of the challenges that we're seeing—. We've got some brilliant schools in disadvantaged areas, but we've also got some real challenges as well. We did commission the Education Policy Institute and Luke Sibieta to review how to incentivise teachers to work in schools of areas of socioeconomic deprivation in Wales. We've received that report and we're considering the report's findings, and we are keen to work with schools and local authorities to look at how we could incentivise teachers to work in our most socioeconomically deprived areas, and that could involve support for travel costs or a specific bursary to improve recruitment and retention. But we need to explore these issues further, because obviously say we were to look at, and you mentioned it, different salary levels in different schools, that would present some challenges that our trade union partners would have a view on. So, those aren't straightforward issues. I think it is important to note as well that all ITE programmes support teachers to be able to teach across Wales settings and develop an understanding of the barriers around deprivation. I won't go into the detail of everything that we're doing to tackle the impact of poverty on attainment, which itself then has a benefit for the teachers who work there, but we are taking lots and lots of steps, which the committee will be aware of because I've spoken about them in the Chamber.

Okay. Perhaps at the end I might come back with a broader question about funding, but I know other Members might want to ask a question.

Did you want me to say something about Welsh-medium now, or later?

It's entirely up to you. 

Well, obviously, I've said that I'm very worried about our Welsh-medium recruitment challenges. The average number of applicants per teaching post is 5.1, which is less than half the number for English-medium posts. That's a real concern for us, especially given the legislation that we are going to be implementing. So, we are working closely with stakeholders and, in particular, our secondary heads through CYDAG and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, and they are very keen to work jointly with us on those issues. Increasing the number of Welsh-medium teachers does need to be a top priority for all stakeholders and a key part of the workforce plan. And I'd be really grateful for any ideas that the committee have about what more we can do in this space.

We are taking action already. We're funding £0.145 million to increase the number of learners studying Welsh at A-level, which is all about our pipeline. We've got the cynllun pontio, which is a further £1.5 million investment that is helping to introduce primary school teachers into Welsh-medium secondary settings. We've got our, obviously, retention bursary for Welsh-medium teachers. We've got our workforce capacity building grant—that's nearly £1 million—which schools are using in different parts of Wales to ensure that we can maintain our Welsh-medium workforce. And the coleg also has a number of schemes aimed at increasing the number of Welsh speakers training to become teachers. Their Dysgu'r Dyfodol scheme provides mentoring sessions and work experience for graduates going into teaching, and their Cadw Cyswllt scheme is a community for students who speak Welsh outside of Wales to keep them informed of opportunities to come back, to encourage people to come back to teach in Wales.

But we also need to work with the 1,590 teachers who are currently able to teach in Welsh but aren't doing so in their current post. And with that in mind, I'm funding the National Centre for Learning Welsh with over £2 million to increase the capacity of teachers that we have at the moment in working through the medium of Welsh. So, we are taking lots of actions, but very open to anything that the committee thinks we could do further in this space.

Okay, thank you. Thank you for that. We'll move on to Natasha now, please.

Thank you so much, Chair. Good morning, everyone. Cabinet Secretary, I was going to ask you a question about data. You very much answered most of it on Vaughan's question that he asked you earlier, but I want to follow up. You talked about rural communities and you talked about the desire to have more data. You mentioned that there's a need to work with local councils in order to retrieve data, such as live vacancies and many other issues as well that you listed, kindly, for the committee. I'd like to know—. Obviously, we have eight months between now and the end of term, so, in relation to trying to collect that data to be able to have that retention level get better, I should say, as time goes by, what is your plan on working with councils? What is your time frame to ensure that that data is collected in the best way possible now?

Well, we're starting that work now, and we've got a perfect vehicle to do it through our school improvement partnership programme. So, we have now got really close working with local authorities, working in partnership. We've got the education improvement team here in Welsh Government, as well as Dysgu, our new professional learning and leadership body. So, that work will be happening imminently, really, to get that granular detail that we need, and that work then that we're doing with local authorities will inform the workforce plan.

And are you going to be having more of a focus, to start with, on those rural areas where there is less retention at the moment, where there is—? For example, you mentioned Anglesey compared to Newport, for example—are you likely to target those areas first, or are you going to just collectively carry everyone together?

Well, no, I think all local authorities need to provide that data, working with us, really, because it's not just rural areas. In my own constituency, we've really struggled with recruitment, especially in Welsh-medium. So, I think it's incumbent on us to work with all local authorities to identify what those issues are, and then for us to put forward solutions to those problems. But we are already now working more closely than we ever have, I think, with local authorities through the school improvement partnership programme. And they want to tackle these issues as well, because they are grappling with those issues at a local level.

Okay. So, what's the timeline that you've set for yourself now for this process to take place, for you to be able to have those solutions in place by the end of it?

Well, this isn't straightforward work. We're starting the work now. In terms of the workforce plan, we're going out to engage with stakeholders on the workforce plan in the coming weeks. The idea then is to publish the workforce plan in the spring then, so we're going as fast as we can on that. I think these aren't straightforward issues. There is no silver bullet in tackling these issues.

So, spring 2026.

Yes, late winter, spring 2026, yes. We're looking at that period after Christmas, but before the next election, to make sure that there is a plan in place.

Great, thank you very much, Chair. Thanks.

Cefin, did you have a supplementary question or not?

No, it's been covered already, thanks.

Okay, thank you. Carolyn, please.

I'm going to cover excessive workload. So, in the engagement work with teachers and school leaders, this came up time and time again for them leaving the profession. Many might have gone into the profession with having also the school holidays, which helps with childcare, but then they're having to spend school holidays and weekends and long days doing preparation work. Is there anything that you might be able to do to address the workload pressure?

Thank you. I know that the committee had really strong evidence from the teaching unions about the importance of workload, and that was no surprise to me at all, really. We are acutely aware of the need to tackle the workload issues and that that is a key factor in keeping people in the profession. We have had a strategic workload co-ordination group, which has been chaired by Anna Brychan from the University of Wales Trinity Saint David, and I'm very grateful to her for her work in chairing that group. That group has had three work streams, and she has very recently written to me confirming the outcomes of that work in order to inform the new workforce plan.

One of the things that Anna highlighted was that there has been a notable shift in the culture of our education directorate in Welsh Government since we've been considering this, and she recommends that our workload impact assessment, which we are already using in the education directorate, is used across the Government to make sure that, when new policies are introduced, we can make sure that there are no unintended workload impacts.

Another key outcome from the work that Anna has chaired in partnership with trade union colleagues has been the development of a guidance document called 'Principles for Professional Engagement', and that's designed to deliver collaboration, partnership et cetera at a local level. So, that's aimed to help all stakeholders in schools and the wider education system to work together and to better understand and engage with decision making, and trade union colleagues are really pleased about that work.

Anna also noted that there has been a very significant reduction in reporting requirements in relation to Welsh Government grants, down from 50 to eight, but has recommended that this is kept under regular review. She's also suggested that we continue the work that we're doing around school business managers. We've got a pilot looking at the role of school business managers to see if that can help with not just the workload issues, but also some of the pressures financially that schools are under. So, she has recommended that we maintain the school business managers group. But I think a very important caveat in what Anna has said is that a lot of these issues are to do with the impact on school leaders' workload, but that that will be harder to discern at a classroom level, and, as part of the new workforce plan, we want to look at how we can have a similarly structured process to improve workload for classroom teachers. It's a very, very high priority for us as a Government, because it's absolutely critical to ensuring the attractiveness of teaching as a profession.

Absolutely. We heard it can vary, as well, from school to school, and depending on the leadership, the impact on the teachers and the peer pressure from other teachers to work those long hours. We've also heard about the negative perceptions and lack of respect for the teaching profession from both adults, learners and parents, impacting on teacher retention. We heard also that they're not celebrated for what they do. At one time, teachers held such great respect, didn't they, and they were held in awe. It was such a profession, compared to doctors and solicitors, maybe, but that seems to have slipped now, putting off people from going into the teaching profession. It gets talked down so much, as well. 

Another thing, as well, is we talked about retention in rural areas, and when I've been out door-knocking in rural areas in Anglesey or Ceredigion or wherever we were helping out, people talk about how we need more jobs, but they presume that jobs are industrial, building, construction. They forget we've got teaching jobs, we've got the foundational economy. We need to promote in those areas as well the retention of people that live there and how great it would be to work in that area, in a beautiful area, beautiful countryside. People go, for example, to study in Bangor University, where they're surrounded by Welsh, and then might move somewhere else or to England to teach, but it's great if they can just stay there. What are we doing to promote it and say it's actually a brilliant profession?

I think you're right to highlight that the perception of teaching is a key factor impacting on recruitment and retention. I also agree with you that we need to do much more to make sure that teaching receives the respect and admiration that it deserves. We've also had challenges with the portrayal of teaching in the media. Now, since I've come into post, obviously, I'm in schools a lot, and I've got to say I've been absolutely blown away by what I've seen amongst our school leaders and our teachers. It's been really, really inspirational. I've had several school leaders say to me this is the best job in the world, and we definitely need to do more to sell that to the public and to people who are thinking about coming into the profession.

So, we've got our Teaching Wales campaign already. As part of that, in the autumn now, we're recruiting Teach Tomorrow Today ambassadors to hopefully help with that job of taking people who are inspirational, who've got that story to tell about working in our schools, out to really sell the profession. We do have the Teaching Wales campaign, which is, obviously, funded to promote teaching as a profession. I'm not a PR expert, but it seems to me to be a very granular campaign that is informed by the evidence. We have regular bursts at important times of the year. So, for instance, the new year is apparently a time when people might think, 'Oh, I might want to change career', and it's very carefully targeted to the groups that we think might be willing to come and think about being teachers. 

But I am definitely very much in the space of wanting to do everything we can to celebrate our teachers. We've got our Teaching Wales awards after Christmas. I went to the first one when I first came into post, and I just thought, 'My goodness, this is fantastic. This is just so inspirational.' As a result of that, I've asked that the next one is held here, because I'm really keen that we can invite Senedd Members, opposition spokespeople, so that you can hear the stories, because teachers are changing children's lives every single day and they're so incredibly committed to it, and we have to do more to celebrate that.

Do you ever talk to the business development team about promoting teaching as a career development as well, because it just feels like it's very siloed? And if you could look at teaching from a well-being point of view rather than just financial and create it as a package, a well-being package, so that you—. You know, with flexibility, which is a question I'm going to come on to, you've got childcare in the holidays, you can live in your community, your rural community, without having to travel to the big city centres to work for that job—travel time can make such a difference. So, package it differently as a well-being, positive job as well, and talk to business to get them involved, to help promote it—as a suggestion.

That is a helpful suggestion. I think we can very easily slip into our silos in the Welsh Government, and I am very happy to have those conversations. But I think the biggest advocates for becoming a teacher are teachers themselves, really.

We are looking at post-16 education here as well. Also, I know that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee did one into work, as well. I really think that we need to strengthen these pathways with Careers Wales, into higher education, into them knowing what jobs are out there and what they mean, and we need to do more with it. I think we've just gone back into silos and plastering and we need to package it into the well-being—bring in well-being and the positivity of it, as well as the financial aspects. They just don't know what jobs are out there and all the benefits besides money—not travelling and all that. Sorry, that's me on my bandwagon and my soapbox.

So, can I just bring in—I am going to just swap the questions around a bit while we are on this—this flexibility as well, if we have this well-being? Like I said, many go into teaching, maybe because they want families and the childcare, but if they could have that flexibility of doing four days a week, it would really help. It would help with that work-life balance. I know it might not be easy because of budgets, but are there other ways that we can try and offer this flexibility, by having other people who can fill that post? I don't know. It was suggested that, in England, they do the planning, preparation and assessment time working from home. My daughter is a teacher in England and she is not offered that, so I guess it varies from school to school anyway, the way it is done. But then, if you've got that pressure on you working from home, you're not really having that quality time at home; you've still got that pressure of the workload. So, I just think if we can offer that flexibility—. Is there anything you can do about that?

This is an important issue as well and it obviously speaks to the attractiveness of the profession, I think especially for women and people with caring responsibilities. Compared to other professions, there is often less flexibility for our teachers. We are looking at this as part of the work that we are doing, and there is work that could be done that doesn't need to be done in schools. PPA tasks are the prime example. Those could potentially be done remotely, or there are also ways to allow teachers to work those hours more flexibly. We have schools in Wales that already do this and also in other parts of Wales. And we do have lots of teachers working part-time, don't we? Obviously, that's a matter that they agree with their senior leadership team. I do think we need to be careful about the challenges with that as well, though, in terms of fairness to the rest of the workforce. If we are allowing school leaders and teachers flexibility, then we need to think about support staff and pastoral staff. So, that's something that we do need to have that discussion with trade unions and local authorities about.

The committee will be aware that I have a headteacher's advisory group, which I am very happy and excited about. They are very enthusiastic. That is one of the issues that I would like to unpick with them. But I also think that we have to keep children at the centre of this, as well. There are lots of children who can benefit from more flexibility, but we know there are other children who really need to be in school and need the structure of that school day. But I also think there are opportunities with technology as well, and one of the things we're really open to is the potential of AI, but not to, you know—. Teaching is a relational thing, isn't it, really? There's really strong evidence that that makes a really big difference. But there are opportunities for AI to free up time for teachers to do what only a teacher can do, stood in front of children and young people. That's very much an active discussion that we are considering, and other countries are considering as well. It's also fraught with risk, obviously, and needs to be managed really carefully.

I think, post COVID, they're very envious of friends that have been able to carry on working from home while they have to come into the classroom to teach. COVID also impacted on pupil retention, but also behaviour. My last question is about pupil behaviour impacting on teacher retention. You held a seminar or something recently, didn't you, regarding that? We had the petition inquiry on mobile phones in classrooms as well, and that is bubbling away all the time. So, that respect and pupil behaviour, if you could just comment on that, please.

Okay. Well, obviously, behaviour is a major challenge, which is why we are so focused on it as a Government. We don't have precise data about the impact of behaviour, but we know from talking to our partners that it is having an impact. That's why we've prioritised improving behaviour, as a Government, through our summit and through the work streams that are arising from that.

I think it's not just about behaviour either; I think it's about the complexity of what schools are dealing with. And that's been probably the most powerful thing that has hit me since coming into post, really, that our schools are not what they were 20-odd years ago. I've had teachers say to me, 'I'm a social worker, I'm a police officer, I'm a psychologist—oh, and I'm an educator.' So, they are dealing with a lot of complexity with children's complex needs, mental health, behaviour. All those different issues are making schools a really challenging place now, really. That's one of the reasons why, as part of the work we're doing as a result of the behaviour summit, we want to get a better multi-agency approach to support schools. It can't just be about everybody thinking, 'Well, schools are always open, they're the fourth emergency service', and other agencies pull back. Everyone needs to step up and wrap around those schools. That in itself will make a really big difference. I think you took evidence from ASCL. This is a real crusade for ASCL—what is going on in schools and the need for better multi-agency support. So, I think it's about that whole piece, really, but behaviour is a symptom of those challenges of complexity that we need to tackle.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll hand back over to Cefin, please.

Thank you, Cefin. Thank you for highlighting the figures. Again, this is a challenge we're seeing across the world. Actually, we're doing better on retention than they are over the border, but we definitely have more to do. I think you're very right to highlight the importance of early career support, because it is those first five years where you're most likely to lose the teacher from the profession. So, currently, we provide a funded mentor for all newly qualified teachers, and we also fund a 10 per cent reduction in their timetable for them to engage with professional learning during their statutory induction period. That package is worth over £5 million every year as part of their early development, but I do think—and I know the committee's had really compelling evidence about early career support—that we need to do more on early career support. So, what we're doing is developing an early career pathway for teachers in the first five years of their career. My expectation is this career pathway will commence in ITE, which would be year 1, and incorporate the statutory induction period, year 2, but then, vitally, go over, then, into the following three years of the first five years of their career. We're currently scoping the development of a three-year early career professional learning programme. That would include a common curriculum for early career PL, a focus on the key issues facing early career teachers, including things like child development, neurodiversity, well-being, behaviour and subject knowledge, and a consistent and coherent model of support for professional learning and inquiry across ITE providers.

That is the plan, but I think it's also as well about—. We know how important research is to people becoming really excellent teachers. That will also, as well as including that PL, involve ongoing participation in school-led inquiry, both within and beyond the early career teachers' own school. What we're going to be doing is working with not just practitioners, but Dysgu and other stakeholders, including local authorities, to develop that pathway. I hope that that will be a step change, really, in ensuring that we do retain those teachers beyond those first five years.

Thank you. This is obviously a really important issue. I've spoken to a number of heads who are themselves really worried about succession planning. We've got to have that route so that we've got a steady stream of school leaders coming through. Dysgu is now going to be taking forward work of reviewing all the existing leadership programmes. That was previously undertaken by the consortia. They're going to be taking over that work and work with local authorities to develop a range of provision that meets the needs of our existing and future leaders in a range of areas.

We also have over 700 people working in schools across Wales who currently hold the national professional qualification for headship, but aren't in headship or leadership positions. We've a lot of people there and we need to understand why it is that they're not making that next step. I'm also very aware—and it's been said to me by one head—that being a head is a very lonely job. I'm very, very focused on the well-being of our whole workforce, including heads. We've got support in place for heads through education support. I think the new school improvement partnership programme will enable more peer support and challenge to be available as well. It's also a key area that I want to explore with my headteacher advisory group.

Okay. My final question in this section is regarding the time allocated in a given school term or a week or whatever for face-to-face professional learning for teachers. Our evidence again shows that they don't feel that there is enough space in the timetable for them to have that purposeful, targeted professional learning that they all crave but they can’t receive because of pressures in the timetable.

Yes, professional learning is absolutely vital and we're investing in 2025-26 again £35 million to support the development and delivery of professional learning. That includes £13 million that goes directly to schools, either to fund professional learning or to release staff to enable them to go and do that professional learning. I recognise that it's still a challenge. That's one of the reasons why we introduced an additional in-service training day, and we've continued that this year because schools are grappling with lots of reform. We've commissioned research to better understand how INSET days are used so that we can consider our future proposals in that space, and we'll be consulting on that later this term. But now that Dysgu is in place as well, I hope that we'll have a better understanding of how that funding is being used at the coalface, really, and make sure that they have that access to professional learning. But also for me, a priority is to make sure the support staff also have access to the professional learning, which is an entitlement and which not all of them are getting at the moment.

Yes, okay. Diolch.

Thank you. I now have a number of questions and I'll start with: do you think that the Welsh Government's ethnic minority ITE incentive scheme has been successful in attracting ethnic minority students into ITE, and what more can be done to attract and to improve the numbers of ethnic minority graduates into going further within teaching?

Well, that's a very important question. We know that just 1.3 per cent of the teaching workforce are of black, Asian, mixed or other ethnicity, compared to 15 per cent of learners. Now, that tells me we have got a lot of work to do in this space. It is important that the workforce reflects the population that they are supporting. You can't be what you can't see. I think that's very, very important.

I am pleased that we've seen an increase in black, Asian and minority ethnic ITE students. So, in 2023-24, 6 per cent of ITE entrants whose ethnicity was known were from a black, Asian or minority ethnic group, up from 3 per cent in 2022-23. The scheme itself has only been available, though, since academic year 2022-23. As I've mentioned, we're already looking at how the incentives have been working, but there are too few cohorts from this particular cohort to know how effective that has been.

I think it's really important that we don't rely on this as the only thing that we do. We've got our salaried PGCE, which means that, in communities, schools can use that to train their own teachers. So, you could have teaching assistants from the BAME community who are interested in becoming teachers. Our ITE black, Asian and minority ethnic recruitment plan sets out how we are addressing under-representation of ethnic minorities in ITE programmes, and we are planning to publish an updated plan later this term.

I also think it's really about the culture of schools as well. We need our schools to be places where everybody feels they belong, and that's why that anti-racist practice in schools is vital. We've got our anti-racist curriculum. We've undertaken lots of PL on anti-racist issues, so I think it's also about those things that we're doing. But I'm not complacent at all about the challenges. I met with the BAMEed group of teachers a few months ago, and they were pushing me to go much further on professional learning, also making sure that we are really robust in tackling racist incidents and the trauma that that causes in schools, not just to kids but to the teachers who are supporting kids or who are even on the receiving end of that. So, I think it's about a package of measures—incentives, encouraging people into initial teacher education—but then supporting the workforce when they're in there, and I'm really committed to doing that work—we all are across Government.

Okay, thank you for that answer. Moving on, what more do you think the Welsh Government can do to support women in leadership? We've talked lots about the majority of the workforce being female and the barriers. We've heard a lot as a committee about the barriers that women face moving on into those higher roles. What more can Welsh Government do to support women that want to move on in their careers in teaching?

Well, I feel the committee's right to highlight this. We've currently got 66.6 per cent of women teachers in leadership roles, and that's an increase from 64.4 per cent, but that is still lower than the percentage of women in the school workforce. So, we are looking to work with senior leaders and local authorities to better understand why there is a higher percentage of men in headship positions, and Dysgu also has a role to play in supporting women in the workforce as well.

I also think it's about some of those issues that Carolyn mentioned. It's about flexibility, and that support that's available. One of the things that we've done recently is emphasise to local authorities ahead of us changing the teachers' terms and conditions that headteachers cannot be on call 24/7. They have to have downtime on weekends, they have to have downtime in school holidays, and things like that I think make a big difference to women who might have caring responsibilities as well. So, I think it's about that whole package, really, of how we're supporting the workforce.

Okay, thank you. We'll now go back to Natasha, please.

Thank you so much, Chair. The committee has heard through numerous different sources and areas about the teacher shortages ultimately leading to bigger classes, which leads to a negative effect on the curriculum delivery, lowering quality, and ultimately affecting access to specialist teachers. So, do you agree with the feedback that we've received in relation to this, and what's your assessment of the extent to which teacher shortages impact on learner outcomes?

Okay, thank you. Well, average infant class sizes have decreased slightly in Wales, and average junior class sizes have increased slightly since 2024. But I am pleased that the average infant class size in Wales has remained below 25 for the fourth year in a row. The average junior class size has increased this year to 26.1, but I think it is positive that it's below 30. And the most recent figures we've got from July this year show that most infant-aged pupils, at 94 per cent, and junior-aged pupils, at 84.9 per cent, continue to benefit from class sizes of 30 or fewer. So, I think that's positive. I do recognise that schools are working hard to maintain the compliance with the infant class size regulations.

I think there are also wider issues that you've highlighted in your question about challenges of recruitment and retention, and the impact on delivering what are really challenging reforms. Obviously, we've got our new curriculum, and that's—. You know, some teachers are absolutely flying with that. Others have said they need support, and that's why we've put in place a programme of national support.

I'm also very aware of the huge additional learning needs pressures in the system, and the very significant rise in numbers and complexity of what schools are dealing with. That's one of the reasons why we've prioritised support for our ALN co-ordinators, as well as a very significant sum of additional funding for ALN. But we are in the process of working to move ALNCOs to the leadership scale. So, it's important that, as a Government, we are mindful of the pressures and do what we can to support schools with those.

Cabinet Secretary, you mentioned a lot of the figures about primary age, which was very nice, and we're conscious in this committee that we have hit the target of teachers needed for primary. What are the figures like for secondary? Are they the same?

Secondary would be more complicated, because, obviously, they're not in one class for the whole of the day. Awen, have you got anything on secondary?

I haven't got anything. We can ask colleagues to write.

Yes, please. That would be really handy, purely because we aren't fully aware as a committee about the shortages of teachers when it comes to secondary. I'd be really interested, and I'm sure the committee would love to hear, in relation to the ratio, as you mentioned. You were so good with regard to primary school; I'd like to see what the difference is when it comes to secondary. I appreciate you have different sections, and you have different class sizes, et cetera, but, just based on this question, I'd like to have a bit more clarity in that area.

I don't think it's straightforward either, for the reasons that I said. It's different at secondary. But also, you'd have supply teachers as part of the mix, we know that TAs are sometimes covering classes, even though they aren't really qualified to do that. So, it is a more complex picture at secondary.

Thank you.

Thank you. Do you think the ALN reforms and the education reforms in general are impacting teacher recruitment and ITE recruitment?

I think there are a couple of sides to this. Lots of teachers are really enthusiastic about working under the Curriculum for Wales. You've heard me say before that it's next-level teaching and learning. It gives teachers a lot of agency to really use what they've learned, and lots of them find that really exciting. But I don't hide from the challenges that there are in delivering a new curriculum, and how different it is to be in a position where you're designing a curriculum, dealing with progression and assessment, which is a very different system to the one that we are used to. That's why we've invested millions of pounds in a national curriculum support programme, to make sure that all schools are able to manage that.

As I said in relation to Natasha's question, I'm not going to run away from the pressures schools are facing as a result of ALN. I know that we've got a scrutiny session coming up on that. It is challenging for schools. We've put extra money in, which helps. We're making the changes to ALNCOs, which will also help. But I think it's about how we as a Government make sure that the whole system is working effectively as an ALN system. But I think it's also about improving our practice in classrooms. Because we know that there's really great inclusive practice in lots of schools and that that can help with some of those pressures as well. But I'm not going to sit here saying things aren't challenging for the profession, because I've been the first person to acknowledge that, and I think it's my role to do everything that I can to support them.

Thank you. If we flip that question, then, do you think that the challenges in recruiting teachers are having a knock-on effect to being able to implement the reforms as effectively as the Welsh Government would like?

I think it's always better to have more teachers, isn't it, and not have these challenges. It's always better to have teachers who are teaching their speciality in the classroom, without having to teach second subjects. Everybody is working really hard to do what they need to at the moment. But I think your question illustrates why it's vital that we tackle these issues around recruitment and retention, because schools are under an awful lot of pressure.

I agree. Thank you for your answer. We'll go back to Natasha now, finally, please.

Thank you so much. The committee has heard that, in secondary schools, teachers may be teaching outside of their subject specialities. Do you have any concerns about this in relation to the impact on the teacher workload and the impact on learners, going forward? If you do, what more can be done to support teachers in Wales?

Thank you. I just said that we have got teachers that are being asked to teach outside their subject specialism. In lots of instances, this is well planned, with schools ensuring there are resources and support available for teachers. To give you one example, the skills challenge certificate isn't staffed as a specific department in many schools, but draws on the expertise of a range of teachers to support learners to develop their wider skills.

But we do know that there are instances where staff won't have access to the support required or sufficient time to plan. We've been working with Welsh-medium secondary schools, as this is an acute problem in those schools, to try to develop some solutions. Through our capacity-building grant, schools have worked collaboratively to share resources, to develop subject-specific professional learning, and to provide time for teachers to observe practice, and that's been welcomed by the schools.

Moving forward, we want to work with Dysgu and also Adnodd to build on these smaller scale projects to develop a nationally available suite of subject-specific professional learning and teaching resources to support teachers. As I said earlier, we're also looking at the issue of subject knowledge enhancement in ITE as well. But obviously, the best scenario is to make sure that we can recruit those teachers to teach the subjects that they want to teach in the first place.

Thanks so much.

Thank you. Vaughan. 

There's a question I want to ask, which is a broader question. A lot of what we've talked about has been about how we use money and how much money you have to do that. It's one of a range of areas, and I think it's kind of odd not to ask the question, given that we're going towards having to set a budget and we all know that there's a letter circulating from the Welsh Local Government Association. It's been written to a variety of groups, and lots of us are aware of the content.

In planning assumptions for how to deliver this, are you going to be able to deliver not just here in this area—? We're talking about recruitment and retention, potentially putting more money into this area, having to prioritise, which I understand as well. If there is an expectation that there is a less than inflationary rise—so, that means real-term reductions—my concern is that will undermine all the things we're talking about, and the report that we provide.

Is this a subject that not just this committee and you're taking an interest in, but a conversation across the Government about how the budget-setting process will impact on the ability to deliver? Because otherwise, when we go through budget scrutiny in the new year, we could be in a position where we're talking about some of the most difficult days in Government that I had, where we knew that we had to make real-terms reductions.

I'm trying to understand how real that is or if the WLGA have got it wrong. Because otherwise, we're going to say to you, 'Please find a way to use money more effectively and find more money', when, actually, you could end up coming back to us in committee scrutiny in the new year and saying, 'I can't keep pace with inflation'.

Thanks, Vaughan. Obviously, I've seen the WLGA letter. I know that the committee took powerful evidence from the trade unions about the financial pressures that schools are facing. This year and last year, we were able to invest an extra £262 million into education, but we are still under huge pressures. You'll have seen the numbers of schools that are in budget deficit. At the moment, I am using every penny that I have got in my budget on the priorities that we have in education, which are massive. I've spoken about the kinds of issues that schools are grappling with at the moment. Those issues are real. We need continued investment in education to make sure that we can meet those challenges and protect the interests of children and young people.

The UK Government has prioritised spending in education, which has meant there have been consequentials for Wales as part of that. What I can say is that I am making the strongest possible case within the Government for there to be continued increases in investment in education. We've got a complex range of reforms that we're trying to deliver, probably more, actually, than any other part of Government, between the Curriculum for Wales, ALN and now the Welsh language and education Bill. That needs to be underpinned with resources. But it's also about the complexity of what schools are dealing with. That's why prioritising funding for schools is really important.

We cannot afford a situation where we are reducing school staff. One of the things that you'll probably have heard from the unions is that one of the first things that goes when school budgets are under pressure is the pastoral staff and things like that. Well, that just creates a whole range of problems, then, that classroom teachers are having to deal with. I think we owe it to children and young people to make sure that we deliver on these reforms in the best possible way that we can. I will continue to make the loudest case possible for more resources for education.

I'm sure you will. I should say I'm looking forward to the invite to the teaching in Wales awards, because I agree with what you say, there are really inspirational people in schools doing an amazing job for our children and young people.

Yes, and we must never forget that. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. We do still have a number of questions, but we are really conscious of time, so is it okay if we write to you with those?

Of course, yes.

Thank you for your time. We really appreciate you being here this morning.

Thank you very much.

I will now move on to item 4, which is papers to note. We have 17 papers to note today, full details of which are all set out in the agenda and paper pack. Are Members content to note papers together? Yes. I should have also said that Joel James has sent his apology for committee this morning.

Moving on to item 5, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting, and for the whole meeting on 25 September and 2 and 8 October. Are Members content? Yes.