National Assembly for Wales

Hefin was a diligent member of this committee and we will miss him. Our thoughts are with everyone who loved Hefin. I will ask Members to stand for a moment's reflection in memory of our friend.

Thank you all. Diolch. 

Can I just declare that my son works in the industry as a freelancer, and there were issues on this—? 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da, bawb. Jack Sargeant, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership.

Diolch, Jack. I'll ask Paul to introduce himself.

Bore da. I'm Paul Kindred, deputy director for culture at the Welsh Government.

Morning. I'm Joedi Langley, I'm head of Creative Wales. 

Thank you all so much.

Minister, the introduction to 'Priorities for Culture' says that, and I'm quoting, 

'Our ambition remains that culture in Wales will be thriving, properly resourced, with a long‑term, strategic plan for investment.'

What is your long-term strategic plan for culture, please?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think the long-term plan for culture is delivering against 'Priorities for Culture', which was launched earlier this year. I think we've made a good start on delivering against 'Priorities for Culture'. We've increased the budget in the settlement this year. We had a package of £15 million to support the delivery of 'Priorities for Culture' and already £11 million of that capital investment has gone out of the door. I think that's good progress there. My priorities for the future of the sector will be reflected against 'Priorities for Culture', working closely with the sector, all of the sector, to deliver against their needs in the future as well. And we'll do that in a collaborative way, the way in which I've started in this position, the way in which I'll carry on in this position.

Thank you for that. Have any people in the sector expressed any concern to you about the fact that there don't seem to be any tangible commitments in what has been published? Do you think that that might hamper, possibly, even the Government in measuring success against what your vision would be?

No. The feedback that I've had from the sector is that they've welcomed the publication of 'Priorities for Culture' and they've welcomed the action that's been taken in the immediate term by us. So, I haven't had that directly to me. We should remember that 'Priorities for Culture' wasn't a document that I just produced or my officials produced, there was a long-term engagement session with the sector themselves and it was co-produced in that way. A lot of effort went into co-producing a document that the sector could feel is for them and it will be delivered by them as well as the Welsh Government. So, I don't think that at all.

When it comes to outcomes, as I've already said, when launching 'Priorities for Culture', the first year will be about delivery. As I said, we had that £15 million package to support the delivery of 'Priorities for Culture'. We're in our first week back from recess and I've just told you that £11 million of that has already gone out of the door. I think that's a real credit to the team around me and those who've supported this development and the delivery.

Thank you very much, Minister. Obviously, as a committee, we recognise that this is something very much that has been long-awaited and we've been really looking forward to seeing it. And of course, there have been possibly different framing points that had been made by different Ministers in the past about what we could expect. A previous Minister had mentioned that there would be an implementation plan, possibly to coincide with the strategy. Could you talk us through, please, why in the end you didn't end up including that?

As I set out in the oral statement in the Chamber, I was very focused that 'Priorities for Culture' firstly was launched. I think it was a successful launch that we had in Caerleon with Amgueddfa Cymru. It was very good to be there with stakeholders as well. I set out in that oral statement that I wanted the first year to be all about delivery. You said it was a long-awaited document and strategy; well, I was very keen that we would hit the ground running and we could deliver against that. I think I've just proved that by getting the capital investment that we've put alongside it: the £8 million for the Arts Council of Wales—40 organisations have had investment there announced; the £3 million for museums, libraries and archives—that was announced on Monday.

I was very keen that we delivered in the first year. I've never ruled out an implementation plan full-stop. I wanted the focus to be on delivery in the immediate future. What happens next? If there is an implementation plan needed and the sector says that, then we will of course consider that. Some of the things that we will do, as I set out in that oral statement, regarding the workforce review and looking into the infrastructure of the sector, might well lead towards an implementation plan. If that is the case, then, of course, we'll consider it in that way. But I was keen to deliver against it and that was the decision I took, and I think it was one that was welcomed by the sector as well.

Diolch. If I may, obviously, the fact that you've had £11 million out straight away perhaps indicates how needed this investment is. If you don't have an implementation plan to support the priorities, how has that funding been allocated and what does success look like in terms of measures and targets? Because, obviously, you can give money and it will be spent, but how do you measure the impact it's having without having that implementation plan?

Firstly, I think the success of getting the £11 million out of the door is very much thanks to the officials working hard to get the money out of the door to the right places. Having that co-produced 'Priorities for Culture' document helps with that. I think that was a good success of the Welsh Government, and it's gone to places where it's needed. Obviously, there'll be funds that have to be measured against. The £8 million fund for the Arts Council of Wales goes through their strategic decisions. They need to be comfortable that they're making the right decisions, and they'll have the mechanisms in place to make sure that that investment, which is going into the £1 million in Venue Cymru, for example, and other areas, is supported in the right way and that that's delivered against in the right way. I think those types of measurements will show in the future that we have made the right decisions with the investments that we've made from the £11 million.

How will we, as a committee, be able to scrutinise and monitor that, if there are not measures and targets that are transparent? Because, obviously, if there was a supporting action plan, where we're able to see that this goes against this, this goes against that, and to understand—. And also, taking on board that 'Priorities for Culture' does not include creative industries or sport, and obviously, some of these funds do go towards some of those areas, from what I understand—

No. The £11 million doesn't go towards sport—

Not at all?

Sport have their own capital investment of £10 million this year, so it's separate. Creative Wales have their own plan. Sport Wales have a strategy as well, and you can scrutinise that through regular sessions that you have with Sport Wales. But, no, there's an £8 million fund that has gone to the Arts Council of Wales as part of 'Priorities for Culture', and the £3 million capital fund, which has gone to libraries, archives and museums, which was announced on Monday.

How would you assess the overall health of the culture sector? You've obviously carried out a very thorough review. You've set out a series of priorities. But there have been, of course—you'll be aware—comments in the national library. Andrew Green, the former chief executive, said there isn't a single corner of this sector that isn't in some kind of emergency. We've had similar comments from the future generations commissioner and so on. Where do you think we are with the culture sector at this moment in time?

I still think challenges remain for the sector. They've had a very challenging period. I don't think anyone's under any illusions around that, and I think the action that we've taken demonstrates the seriousness the sector is in. We've invested in-year additional funds last year. We had the budget settlement that we did this year. And then, getting the 'Priorities for Culture' over the line was a big priority for me when I came into this post, and making sure we had that package of funds alongside the 'Priorities for Culture' enabled us to deliver, and then getting that money out the door to the sector. So, I think there are challenges that still remain. That is the case for the sector not just in Wales, but much further afield as well. I think the supportive approach and that collaborative approach that we take, working alongside the sector, is a welcome one and one that I want to see continue, going forward.

One of the big challenges we face, of course, though, is that having left the European Union has created a whole series of new challenges for culture, for the arts, for the music sector as well. I wonder if perhaps you could just sum up what you see as those specific challenges as a result of that, because understanding what those challenges are perhaps leads us to how we look at how we address them.

Yes, sure. So, when you talk about leaving the European Union and the impact that's had on performers in particular, I've spoken to a number of different organisations who perform across the world, and, obviously, perform in Europe as well, and some of the difficulties that they've faced because of that, the red tape, that has impacted them. I'll give you one example that springs to mind: NoFit State Circus—which is an excellent company, just down the road from where we're sitting now—a high-performing circus, really good to see. When they go to Europe, they have to itemise every single piece of equipment, including the nuts and bolts that are in whatever piece of equipment it is. The burden that that places on them makes it really, really difficult. You can say it’s similar for touring musicians as well, and it's a conversation I've had at inter-ministerial group level with the Secretary of State, Lisa Nandy, and with other Ministers in devolved administrations as well, because we recognise it's a problem and I think it's a shared problem that all devolved administrations and the UK want to try and tackle, going forward. So, I hope to have a further conversation in the future when we meet as an inter-ministerial group for the creative industries to try and address some of those problems there. But it is a very real problem, particularly for performing artists.

The Musicians' Union, obviously, have been raising this for quite some time and highlighting the dilemma faced by many artists, and also the trade aspect that goes alongside music now, which is a complication. We, as a committee, of course, have been to Brussels recently, and there's been the trade Bill and so on. What we were told, though, of course, was that the issue of dealing with the restrictions in respect of musicians, and so on, is something that's not off the radar, but is quite far down the radar. I was just wondering what steps you, as a Minister and Welsh Government, are taking to, I suppose, keep this high up on the radar for solution, if possible.

Yes, it is on our radar. You've had the conversations with the Musicians' Union. I speak to the Musicians' Union regularly as well. As I said, when we met as an inter-ministerial group for the creative industries not that long ago, just before recess, it was raised with Ministers then. I'll be seeking to raise it again with the new Minister for creative industries when I meet Ian Murray for the first time, following the latest reshuffle, and we want to have that further conversation as a wider—. I don't think it's something that Wales can fix alone, I think it needs to take a collaborative approach from all devolved administrations and the UK Government, and I'm keen to progress conversations with the UK Government on this, because I think the main powers lie with them. But, of course, we want to try and help that sector in particular and some of the barriers they face, because we left the European Union some time ago.

Just having referred to the Musicians' Union, it's probably only proper we refer now to BECTU, the cinematograph and general union for those who work—. One of the big challenges, over the years, has been the growth of freelancers, and you will be aware of all of the data, which actually showed that, post COVID, there were many freelancers who have basically been out of work. Some have left the industry, and I suppose the concern there is that we are losing the skills that they have, we are losing a valuable component of the industry. I'm just wondering what engagement you might be having with, say, BECTU on this, but what things potentially can be done to actually try and secure the employment prospects of those freelancers in terms of the long-term interests of the industry, the development and retention of skills?

I think it's very important to recognise that the industry you're talking about is built on freelancers. It survives because of freelancers, so we need to support freelancers as much as we can. We do, through Creative Wales, support freelancers already. I think there was a fund that we supported freelancers with a few years ago, and we'll always look to try and help freelancers where we can.

One of the things I've been keen to try and push wider than just the Government is to  not just consider the creative industries in a silo, but consider it within the wider sector and culture sector. So, I'm keen to say that pipeline is crucial for this, as we know. So, if you were a freelance set designer on whatever film for Netflix or BBC, for example, then why couldn't you go and be a set designer in that period for a production in one of the theatres here? So, I'm keen to try and see that closer collaboration. It's a message I've put to a lot of organisations when I meet them regularly.

But I think, on the freelance industry in general, pipeline is crucial, and that's why we're committed to continuing investing with Creative Wales in production funding for film and tv productions to come, so that freelancers have that confidence that there is a pipeline of work here, and then the skills are there for the production companies to say, 'Yes, Wales is the place to be,' and I think we've had real, good success with Creative Wales so far.

Mick, just before you continue, if I might jump in for a moment, could that be one of the tangible measures that could possibly be included in 'Priorities for Culture', just to nod to that work that you are hoping to do more of?

Well, 'Priorities for Culture' is out there and launched, so I'm not going to revisit 'Priorities for Culture'. If, in the future, an implementation plan was required, then, of course, I'd consider all options. I'm not going to say that today, but Creative Wales always looks to freelancers to try and support them. We do say within 'Priorities for Culture', around collaboration—and I think—that collaboration is key. So, I talked about not just the creative industry working on its own, but is there collaboration between Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales? Is there collaboration between heritage and the more traditional arts? I think that's key, and that is reflected in 'Priorities for Culture', so you can see that work in there.

Thank you, Minister. Forgive me, Mick. Carry on.

Just one final question, because you've answered a little bit about the issue of monitoring, which is, obviously, something that's important, being able to evaluate the progress that's being made. We've always taken great pride within Wales, haven't we, in terms of a cultural profile, a very specific and unique cultural profile. I suppose, in terms of priorities, it's putting Wales on the global stage, and I'm just wondering, because we do have not only some incredible actors, performers, artists, musicians, but we have, from part of my constituency, the Cory Band, the world champion brass band—. One question, and I've asked this every time over the last 15 years: what is the strategy of linking in culture with the promotion of Wales, of industry, of business, and so on? How does that work? Is it too siloed, in your opinion? Do you think there's more that can be done that looks at where we have this sort of global cultural engagement, but also linking that with the promotion of Wales, whether it be tourism, whether it be investment, industry, and so on?

No, I think it's one of our key strengths, actually, isn't it, so it's integral to all of us as a nation. And, actually, I think it's a key strength to celebrate our culture in that way. Whether it's trying to attract business to come to Wales or to promote tourism, our rich cultural history in Wales is a real asset to us. I'll pick this example: when the Cymru women's team were out in Switzerland this summer for the first major tournament they've competed in, we supported the FAW and others with a partner support fund, and that was not just to celebrate football, but it was to celebrate Wales and Welsh culture. And as part of that partner support fund, we were able to send a resident poet over to Switzerland for the entire time that the Cymru women's team were there, and the poems that Sarah produced and performed made international news. I know that she was on the six o'clock news channel in the Netherlands and we were able to use that opportunity of playing these teams on that world stage to promote our own culture, but then also to advertise Wales as a place to come away. So, we had Visit Wales, for example, which is not in my portfolio—it's in the portfolio of the Cabinet Secretary for economy—but they used that opportunity to promote Wales again to those countries where we were playing in the tournament, with the Netherlands being one of them, to go out and say, 'Why don't you—?', to promote Wales to the Netherlands in Dutch.

So, I think that's a real success. Our cultural identity is an asset to us, and we should look at every opportunity to promote in whatever way that might be, whether that's sport or music—all aspects of our culture, we should look to promote in that way, because I think it's a real asset for us.

I have no further questions, Chair. 

Thank you, Mick. Mick referred to a lot of the challenges that exist in the sector. One of those challenges, of course, is the fact that, since the pandemic, there are still problems where audiences have not returned to the levels that they had been before that time, can you pinpoint anything that is in your 'Priorities for Culture' or that would be within your vision that would be designed to tackle that issue and to increase attendance?

I think, if you look at 'Priorities for Culture', there are ambitions within there that support children and young people. For me, I think that's exactly where we should be looking to grow audience participation in the future, by investing in access for children and young people, particularly those from working-class communities, to have that access and experience at first-hand what that looks like—I remember my first time going to Theatr Clwyd in Hannah's constituency—and opening your eyes. So, we're doing lots of work on that. We've funded various schemes to make sure that children and young people can go to museums. So, there's a part of a fund that looks at supporting getting children to museums, opening our world-class heritage sites through Cadw. There's a fund to support children and young people going to that and various other museums and things. So, I think growing the audience of the future is where my priority is and I think that's the right priority for the Welsh Government, so we'll certainly be looking to progress that through the priorities for culture.

Thank you, Minister. Mick wanted to come back in and then I'll come to Heledd.

It's just a very short question. Of course, one of the big issues—and we've discussed this as a committee over many, many years and, of course, we have a bus Bill coming and we're looking at the integration of transport—in terms of people being able to access some of our major cultural events is that, sometimes, it's okay to get there, but you can't get back again because of the inconsistencies of the current transport system. Is this something that you've been looking at or that you intend to be looking at, engaging with, perhaps, the transport Minister, as to how the integration of that and our cultural events could perhaps be improved to increase accessibility?

I think the bus Bill is a very good Bill to be able to do just that. I'm very happy to have that conversation with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. He won't only be looking at supporting those sectors in that way—it's much wider than that—but, yes, of course, I'm very happy to take that suggestion forward from Mick. I think it's a good suggestion that he makes. I think the bus Bill in general is a very positive step forward for Wales. I'd encourage all Members of the Senedd to support that Bill.

Thank you, Minister. Just before I bring Heledd in, I just wanted to welcome—. There's a delegation from the Sámi Parliament in Norway who are joining us in the public gallery. You're very welcome. 

You're very welcome to the Senedd. Thank you so much for joining us.

Diolch. If I just may, on the 'Priorities for Culture', I have no doubt that the investment that you've made and the increase has been very well spent, well invested, but listening to the evidence you presented this morning, and also looking at the paper, I wonder, without having those measures in place, how you're able to really understand the impact that spend is having and how it's strategic? Are you able to provide those assurances, or do you see why we perhaps struggle to understand why there's not an implementation plan to support this so we're able to truly measure the impact against all those priorities? Because you could say, 'Well, this project goes towards this priority' and so on, but it seems quite scattergun, rather than really strategic and targeted.

I would disagree. I think it is a strategic investment. All of these investments have come through an application process, so they are considered in that way. I can assure you the decisions are made right and proper, and I think it is a strategic investment. It's in collaboration with the industry as well. The 'Priorities for Culture' were developed in that way, and the funds are developed to support the delivery of the 'Priorities for Culture'. So, it's not scattergun; I think it is very strategic in its approach. The Arts Council of Wales in particular are experts in this field, and they've deployed the vast majority of that funding—£8 million—so I wouldn't say it's scattergun, and they do go to support the delivery of the early phase of the 'Priorities for Culture'. We knew capital investment was one of the key asks of the sector, and that's what we've been able to deliver through the two funds that I've mentioned.

So, if I may, just on capital maintenance, then, what's the total capital maintenance backlog for the organisations that fall under the 'Priorities for Culture'? For instance, in 2022 Amgueddfa Cymru alone told the committee that the bill was £66.8 million, just for Amgueddfa Cymru alone. So, obviously, in terms of the increase, it's welcome, but what's the total cost for the organisations and what's your plan to get to grips with that?

Chair, I don't have the total cost at hand on that. Our plan to work with all of the culture sector is to develop through the 'Priorities for Culture', as we have, and deliver against them. The £11 million has gone out the door already. When it comes to the amgueddfa and others, we will work closely with them, as we have done for many years now, and we'll continue in that way. I have regular meetings with Amgueddfa Cymru to discuss their priorities, and we look to support their priorities as much as possible in the future. I don't have that figure to hand today.

Thank you. I can appreciate that. It would be really, really helpful if you would be able to provide those for us, and also that plan in terms of how we get to grips with that. Because in terms of then monitoring progress with the 'Priorities for Culture', I think that would be really helpful.

And if I may, just one other question—

Very briefly.

Just on skills, which you mentioned in response to Mick Antoniw, I note in the paper that you've submitted to us that you've talked about commissioning research to look at the skills in the sector and so on. Has that been commissioned? If so, when will it report? If not, when will it be commissioned? And will that include a wider definition than just the organisations that fall under the 'Priorities for Culture'? Because, obviously, the creative industries and the sectors here—so many people, especially freelancers, work in both. They don't see that division that you have in the strategy.

No, it hasn't been commissioned yet, but we're in the process of developing that proposal and the commission for that piece of work. I hope that piece of work will really take place towards the end of this year, or certainly early next year. On the point of the scope of that work, I take your point very seriously on the creative industries and the wider field. We're in the development stage, so we'll take that into consideration, but I do recognise, as I said to Mick, there is a real crossover, and I think there's potential for more crossover going forward. We'll certainly take that into consideration when bringing forward the proposals.

I just want to check in on two specific commitments under the programme for government. The first is the contemporary art gallery for Wales, which has been launched. It's significantly smaller than was originally envisaged. Do you now consider this as a commitment that's been discharged? Is it complete? Is it finished? Is the box ticked?

I think the initial investment into CELF has been completed, but I think the work of CELF is ongoing. I don't think it stays complete. I think the fact that it's contemporary shows that. I am aware there remain some gaps, perhaps, in where we need to look to further expand in the future where funding does become available.

I should say, though, Chair, the work of CELF in particular is fantastic, and if you haven't been to one of the galleries, you really should. I visited Ruthin, and to see the impact of that funding and the progress that's been made is really fantastic. And we had the launch in the Senedd, which I think, Chair, you were certainly at. I think the initial investment that we set out to fund that dispersed model has been complete, but the work of CELF carries on, and it will carry on.

Can I just clarify that? Because your paper says that the funding situation is not complete, that there's additional capital funding needed because of the tight delivery timescale, and there are ongoing revenue costs that the partners have asked for that have not been finalised yet.

The initial investment is complete. We'll go on supporting CELF. The funding model of CELF is written through the—forgive me for the title—paper that the three organisations put together. They requested additional investment and we've provided that additional investment this year.

And then the plans for the next financial year—how are they looking?

I want to get to a place in the future where CELF is sustained through the partners, but there has been a request of additional funds for next year. I think it's £395,000 for 2026-27. I've agreed in principle that we will support them with that fund as requested. Obviously, we need to get to the space where that is achievable.

Okay. And do you envisage any problems with that?

Well, let's get a budget through the Senedd, and if we are successful in that, then I don't see a problem.

That's the only impediment, is it?

I see that being the only issue. 

Okay, no small thing. [Laughter.] I just want to ask specifically about the museum of the north, which still has Game of Thrones echoes for me, which has obviously been dropped. But there was £0.5 million allocated for a feasibility study. Was that money spent, and what was the output, if it was? 

Thanks, Lee. I agree there is a Game of Thrones analogy there somewhere, isn't there? We'll probably stop short of saying any more on that, though. On the fund committed to the museum of north Wales, I think £175,000 was spent of that £0.5 million you referred to. That work went into exploration of all sites and potential sites. So, part of that work looked at the slate museum in Llanberis. So, the work that was done around that exploration stage then went into the work, and has been used to support the slate museum as they've progressed. You will have seen the very welcome news of additional funding at the National Slate Museum in north Wales. We've provided funding as a Government, and when I visited in the summer, they were very clear the funding that we provided gave confidence to other partners. And you will see—. Is it £11 million they've had from the—?

Twelve, I think.

Twelve million pounds from the National Lottery Heritage Fund, and the amgueddfa was very clear it's because of our support for the project to date, and part of that was the work that's gone into the development phase of north Wales. So, the early work of the museum for north Wales I think has been put to good use, and we've seen success at the other end.

Okay, thank you.

Okay. Diolch. Heledd is going to lead us with some questions on funding.

Thank you, Chair. We've had many a discussion on this, and obviously as a committee we've taken a keen interest. You'll know yourself—you referenced at the beginning of this evidence session—the challenging landscape for sectors and organisations that fall under your portfolio after the austerity years. Your paper acknowledges that the increase that they've seen in this year's budget is only a very small increase compared to 2023-24. It's reinstating us back to those levels, and obviously it doesn't take into account inflation. So, do you accept that the landscape is still a very challenging one for these sectors in terms of funding?

I've never not thought it's been challenging. I've always been open and honest about the challenges that the sector faces. As I said earlier, the action that we took last year with the in-year funding recognised that, and the budget we were able to provide this year acknowledges that as well. I think the budget that we did provide this year—. You will have seen the welcome comments from the sector as to where we are. So, look, the challenges, as I said earlier in this session, of course still remain, and we want to work with the sector to help get through them.

Thank you. I'm really pleased to hear that acknowledgement, because I have to say, at the Eisteddfod in Wrexham this year, there was quite a lot of anger from people working in the sector—not directed at you, Minister, but at the First Minister's comments. She said in an interview with Golwg that the Government is pouring money into culture and the Welsh language and spending a fortune on culture, so I think your acknowledgement that there is still a challenging landscape will be welcome.

My follow-up question to that, therefore, would be: what's the plan to increase funding and get us from this challenging position? Where would you like to see the levels of investment reach, because, obviously, we're at the bottom of the league table at the moment? Where would you like to see us as a Senedd and you as a Government set that level of ambition in terms of investment?

Well, firstly, the First Minister's right to point to the wider investment that we make into a range of sectors that support Welsh culture. Those weren't the comments that I had at the National Eisteddfod when I was there. The comments that I had were very well received indeed. And, look, I'm going to work with the sector to get through some of the challenges, and I'll work in the way that we have always worked since I've been in this post. I'm not going to set budgets in this committee today, and I'm not going to set future budgets in this committee today, Chair. I think that's just a bit too early to do. But I recognise the challenges that, of course, the sector does have, but I also recognise the investments that we have made as well, and which have been welcomed by the sector as well. So, I'm not going to set budgets, unfortunately, today.

I think what I was asking was to set an ambition, perhaps, because we've seen other Governments, other nations, perhaps, set a target of an increase in funding and investment. If you're not able to do so, that's fine, but have you conducted an assessment of the impact cuts have had on portfolios that fall under your responsibility, to truly understand the picture and the level of need and how, actually, we can sustain them to deliver on those priorities for culture? Because from what I understand, the situation of some organisations and institutions still remains extremely precarious.

Well, we have regular engagement, both at official level and at ministerial level, with organisations across the sector, and of course we talk openly about the challenges that they face and also the opportunities that are there for the future. I think ‘Priorities for Culture’, and the way in which we developed ‘Priorities for Culture’, very much recognises some of the challenges that are in place, and again the opportunities—not just challenges, but the opportunities that are available to us as well, and we'll go on working in that way. I'm very keen to have a partnership with the sector and provide assurance to the sector that I will work in that way with them. We'll listen to their concerns and we want to work collaboratively with the sector to overcome the concerns. This is a very—. We've been in a very difficult period over the last number of years. We've seen a better settlement this time, and we were able to support the sector with an increase in funding, with in-year funding and with the development of ‘Priorities for Culture’. So, I want to carry on my relationship with the sector in that way, and I'm very open and honest with the sector when they come to see me and when I go to see them in various fields, and we'll continue doing that.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to focus on sport and ask what the latest is on the Welsh Government's preparations for the Euro 2028 tournament.

Progress is going really well. We're actively involved in discussions. I've had discussions with both the chair of the English Football Association and the tournament director for Euro 2028 around preparations there. There is the, I want to say, company that is set up for leading this piece of work now, and we're actively engaged in those discussions with all partners on that. And I'm very keen to make sure Wales plays its part in the tournament. But I think, from what I can say, and to give assurance to Gareth and the committee, preparations for Euro 2028 are progressing really well.

That's good to hear, because I think, personally, it's a real opportunity to engage people with sport—football, of course, but sport generally—given that such a wide and international tournament will be played right on our doorsteps, if you like. Have you had any meetings with UEFA specifically, and has there been any drawing of an assessment of UEFA generally? We're embarking on the second season of the new format of the Champions League, which hasn't really been welcomed widely by many people within the football sector. Does that seem to be a barrier in some ways to confidence in UEFA generally that they actually have the best interests of the sport at heart, and general fan disillusionment potentially with the tournaments that UEFA has, given that the decisions that they've made in that regard haven't been necessarily conducive with the nature of the game, and fan participation generally?

Thanks, Gareth. Just to say, Chair, on the Champions League, Newcastle United Football Club are back in the Champions League. [Laughter.] You have one very happy sports Minister—

Thank you for putting that on the record. 

—and one very happy young son at home. So, he only knows the Champions League. On meetings with UEFA, Gareth, I haven't had a direct conversation with UEFA, but I'm hoping to have one at quite a senior level in the future and, obviously, that will be an opportunity to discuss a variety of things. Euro 2028 will be one of them, but there'll be other things to talk about there, I hope, too. I did have the opportunity to speak to a range of different stakeholders when I was in Switzerland with the Football Association of Wales. I know the FAW are always active in conversations with UEFA.

When it comes to hosting tournaments like Euro 2028, I'm absolutely committed that we make a success of this, and to making sure that Wales plays its full role within those types of tournaments and then the legacy beyond the tournament as well. So, I haven't had the conversation directly with UEFA yet, but hope to be able to do so. I think we've got a good record of hosting these types of tournaments in the past, and we'll want to grow on that in the future.

I agree, and I think it's good that it's being held on a UK-wide basis, and Wales can certainly play its part in that. How do you use major sporting events like this to increase participation in sport generally? Obviously, it's far down the pipeline and the telescope, if you like, but, looking at those as opportunities for increased participation in sport, looking at sport and fitness generally as health prevention, that sort of thing—I don't want to stray too much into too many health issues, but that sort of preventative model that we all aspire to generally, in that regard.

Sport plays a key prevention role. It's one of our key tools, isn't it, to being a healthier nation. I think hosting these types of tournaments and being involved in these types of tournaments really does give us a way of promoting sport to a wide variety of people. One of the successes of the summer—and there have been a number of successes in sport—was, obviously, the Cymru women's team playing in that first major tournament, the Rugby World Cup we had across the border in England, Lauren Price in the boxing, opening the eyes to many, many people because of these showcase events. But, just in the Royal Porthcawl, we had the Women's Open for the first time. I was there on the Saturday of that four-day open, and I have to say I had lots of people just being impressed by how the Welsh Government has supported that programme, but being impressed by Wales in general—people who've never been to Wales before want to come back to Wales because they want to play golf in all of the courses that they possibly can. And what we were able to do with the Women's Open is provide a fund similar to the Euro partner support fund, but it was a fund allocated to Wales Golf, which looked at increased participation. So, you will have seen, I'm sure, recently—and they were here in the Senedd before the tournament—the programmes like New2Golf, beginners' golf, successful programmes on the back of major tournaments and major events like the Women's Open.

And then you will have seen the investment through that fund in a number of courses across Wales. I haven't quite got the figure to mind, but, in every part of Wales, there are multiple courses that have had investment in them, which looks at increased participation and growing of the game of golf, for all of the reasons you set out. So, Hawarden, in my own constituency, Chair—if you'll allow me to speak about that—is Wales Golf Club of the Year. They've had investment through this fund, and that will look to grow the game. So, they've had on-course facilities that were not there before, and that was very much preventing, particularly, women and girls, but other people as well, from going to engage in the game, and, hopefully, that will grow because of it. And that's because we've had this major event. So, we'll have a project review on that and a wash-up, and, hopefully, that will learn some of the lessons for where we can do better in the future. But it's very successful from what I can see so far.

Thank you. Finally, if I may, just to ask, at a technical level, there's just a—. In terms of Welsh Government funding into golf, and the examples you've used, is that in collaboration with the private and commercial sector, or is it in addition or something separate to what they're offering, and does it complement those issues—sorry, not the issues, the work—that they do? Because, obviously, we know that sports generally—football, golf, whatever it is—has a private sector and quite a commercial outfit to it. Does that work collaboratively with it, or is the Welsh Government offering something that's different, and ploughing their own furrow, if you like, in that regard?

Is that for support of major events or support for growing of the game?

Well, both, really, I suppose.

So, our investment into grass-roots sport typically comes through Sport Wales, so they'll lead on the investment package. The private interests of golf clubs, or football clubs and so on, is a private thing, but I would imagine it complements what they try to achieve. And then, when we're looking at bringing major events to Wales—it's not my responsibility directly, Chair; it's the responsibility of the Cabinet Secretary—we take into account a range of different things, and we would offer support in a way that makes sense to Wales and the public purse, so, obviously, looking at the impact of what that brings, and we've just discussed some of the impacts that that will bring. But it's in a collaborative effort with the organisers. So, the conversation again—. I'll just point to the R&A, who run the Women's Open, who've been very impressed, particularly with the Royal Porthcawl Golf Club, but also with the support that the Welsh Government's put, and the offer, and that working relationship. So, we look to grow those relationships, going forward, as well.

Diolch.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. If I may, an earlier piece of work that we did as a committee—it feels a long time ago now—had been around participation in sport for those from disadvantaged backgrounds. You've also mentioned in your responses just now the importance of sports in terms of prevention and also how we increase participation and so on. When you were before us in January, the evidence submitted there talked about the need for greater cross-sector prioritisation in order to achieve those kinds of goals, so that we remove barriers to participation, ensure that prevention is embedded. What steps have been taken since then to ensure that this happens, and what measures have been put in place?

So, one of the key components to getting people to participate in sport, I think, is giving them access to the facilities that enable them to participate in sport. So, the capital investment that we've made—significant capital investment through Sport Wales; £10 million this year—goes into strategic areas whereby people can access those facilities. The investments we've made through Wales Golf is a further example in addition to that. And then there are other areas where the Welsh Government looks to provide assistance and support. So, through the school, the communities—what is it, the school, the communities, the learning—communities for learning—. I should know the title, and I will get you the full title, but, through the building of new schools, we look, my officials look, to give a clear steer to local authorities about what type of sporting equipment and sporting stadia they might need going forward—so, very much shaped by the school sport survey—for exactly that. So, is there an area in a community that needs access to a certain type of sport? What are the children telling us? Then we'll look to support them in that way, and that's what we're doing very much so now.

In terms of, then, how do you measure—because, obviously, the school survey provides a really helpful snapshot of what children are interested in; it doesn't really tell you what sports they're accessing, their background—the level of detail in terms of investment, and the strategic long-term aims, can I ask—? I was asking in terms of the measures to know—. Because you can have the facilities there, but it doesn't guarantee that people from disadvantaged backgrounds or those that have low levels of participation are actually using those facilities. So, how do we measure that that investment is actually reaching those, and are there any further barriers that we need to overcome to ensure that they're utilised to the best of their abilities?

So, if barriers are in place, and if barriers come in the future for whatever reason, I'm very keen to make sure that we try and address those outcomes. I think Sport Wales play a key role in measuring some of this, and they are their investments, via the Welsh Government into Sport Wales, and they'll do the assessments alongside national governing bodies as well. So, national governing bodies play a key role in who is accessing sports in the communities. But I'm clear there is more to do, I think, particularly in working-class communities, about access to not just sport, but culture more generally, and I think our investments show to date that we are focused on that. But the measurement of these things very much is alongside our partners in our arm's-length bodies as well.

Chair, just to give you the title of the one that I looked for before, it's the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme.

Thank you. I think a lot of the things you've mentioned seem to be devolved to other organisations—they should monitor and so on. But I guess what I'm interested to know is what are the Government's targets, your measures, that overall picture across portfolio. Because, obviously, dancing can come under arts and culture funding sometimes, sometimes it comes under sport—you know, the fact that the 'Priorities for Culture' does distinguish between both pots, but there is cross-portfolio. I'm just trying to really understand how you measure that, for every £1 you invest, it is actually achieving what the Government's aims are here in terms of ensuring that everyone can participate and so on.

So, I think, investing against the 'Priorities for Culture'—and I've told the Cabinet it's a Cabinet responsibility as well to look to invest in arts, sport and all things culture as well, and I think we do see that. So, we see it from the sustainable communities for learning programme. We see investment from health as well. And, indeed, when those Ministers are making their decisions, they'll have their own way of measuring the impact of their spend.

If I may, therefore, have you seen an increase in expenditure in these areas from other portfolios? So, for instance, in arts and health, I understand that the majority of funding comes via Arts Council of Wales rather than from health boards. Are you seeing movement with the Cabinet Secretary for health, for instance, in seeing the value of actually investing funding from the NHS in these areas rather than it solely coming from your very squeezed budget?

So, I don't have the full budget of the Cabinet Secretary for health in front of me, but what we have seen is investment this year into programmes. Gareth was talking about sport earlier and football; we've seen investment from the Cabinet Secretary for health into the Football Association of Wales this year to support programmes that they're running. So, we have seen programmes. I think this is a journey as well, isn't it? It's a long-term 'Priorities for Culture'. And I hope, as we go forward, all Cabinet Secretaries will look to use funding where they can promote culture as well. We've seen it in Transforming Towns funding from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, where investments have been made into cultural facilities across Wales through a different fund. So, we are seeing investments from across the Government, and, yes, I'd be very happy to see more of that in the future.

Thank you.

Thank you. We were really intrigued to find out that you, as a Government, are adopting the Marmot principles—I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I think that you might be the first Government to do that. Could you talk us through how that will be changing how you invest in sport as this preventative health measure?

Yes. I think the Marmot principles and becoming a Government that's adopted that approach is a very, very positive thing for Wales and it's a positive step forward by the Welsh Government. The Cabinet Secretary will look to make decisions through those principles, indeed. One of the tools is around prevention, and we all know that sport plays that part. I just mentioned the fund where they've supported the FAW already, and I think that proves the Cabinet Secretary is looking through that lens of the Marmot principles, and he'll carry on doing that, going forward. But I think it's a positive step that he's made the declaration that he has and I think that can only be positive in the future as well.

Thank you very much for that. And just one more question before we move on from sport. The committee has received—well, committee members have received—correspondence on a live issue that's relating to sporting events. Could I ask you if the Welsh Government has a view on the participation of Israeli teams in the sporting events that the Government funds, please?

It's typically a place for national governing bodies to take forward. I'm not aware of a live event at the moment, but, of course, I would consider that and our response as and when that happens.

But there isn't a holding view in terms of any sporting events on that?

Well, matters like that are typically for the Foreign Office and for national governing bodies, but obviously, I—. If, in the future, an event was such, I'd consider my response then.

Thank you, Minister. That's useful. Heledd wanted to come in briefly on this.

Before we move on from issues in sport, can I ask how engaged you have been with the Welsh Rugby Union over the consultation that's currently live?

I've had correspondence with and from the WRU on this issue. I hope to meet the chair in due course to discuss the consultation. But I'm very clear that this is a WRU consultation, not a Welsh Government consultation. My encouragement is that all parties with interest in the growth of rugby and the future of rugby should take part in the consultation, respond to the consultation, and the WRU should listen to the views of the people of Wales who are interested in the game.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

Thank you, Cadeirydd. I've waited very patiently.

You have been very patient. We've all noticed. We've all noted it. Yes.

The first question, really, relates to—. I have a few questions on the media aspect of your portfolio. The first is about that thorny issue of funding.  It was just to ask for an update to the committee on how the £350,000 within Creative Wales's budget to support journalism in 2025-26 has been allocated. We see these things in black and white, but if you could give us a bit of colour, actually, on what that means in real life and the difference it's hopefully making.

Thank you for the opportunity to address that, Hannah. So, the £350,000 in Creative Wales's budget is split into a £200,000 fund and a £150,000 fund. The £200,000, Chair, has been allocated to deliver a contestable fund to support projects that facilitate systematic change within the industry, and they align to the Wales public interest journalism working group's recommendations and the report that they presented to us. That fund has been open. I'm expecting advice and to be able to announce the awardees of that fund in the coming weeks. So, I think that, firstly, is a positive step forward.

And then the second part of the £350,000, Chair, is the £150,000, and that's a ring-fenced budget within Creative Wales, and that helps deliver another round of the arm's-length journalist fund, which is a very positive step forward for the sector. Chair, that will include the continuation of the post of the Senedd reporter, who I think we all value, certainly in this committee, and I think it's an important role for Wales as well.

Thank you, Minister. Mick wants to come in on a supplementary.

I just wanted to come in on the funding there. As this is generally related to media, one of the issues that's been raised consistently in this committee, and I've certainly been raising it over the last 15 years, is the actual support for not only journalism, but for community radio, which embraces whole aspects of music, arts, community engagement and so on. I have within my constituency GTFM, which I think is very successful, and, of course, there are many others around Wales. I know there has been some support. I wonder if you could outline, perhaps, support that there has been, but also the engagement, perhaps, of your office with other departments, particularly in the public health area, because one of the ways of supporting community radio outside of your budget is, of course, public health advertising, in which the Welsh Government is involved, which rarely seems to involve community radio. Now, whether it's just by coincidence it just happens to bypass or it's not on the radar, but it seems to me that it's an investment that has mutual effect. One, public health information and so on going out on community radio, but, secondly, the funding from that also supplements and contributes to the actual viability and survival of that. So, it was very disappointing when I learned, certainly from mine—and I think it's typical around—that very few of these adverts ever make it onto community radio. They go into all sorts of other areas. I do say it as a compliment that I understand that there has been some funding support, which has been very gratefully received, but I wonder if you'd just give your perspective on how that is developing, and perhaps what can be done to make more consistent that element of cross-governmental support for community radio and all that it does within our communities?

Thanks, Mick, for that. Firstly, I think, just to say, community radio is very important to communities right across Wales. I think it's particularly important in Wales, actually. I've had a similar conversation on the importance of radio, briefly, with Ofcom, and around the future of radio there. I don't have the detail of the fund to mind today, Chair, but perhaps I can write a note to the committee, answering Mick's questions.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mick. 

Diolch. As you touched on in your previous answer a couple of times, you mentioned the Wales public interest journalism working group. Do you agree with the central recommendation to establish a Wales media institute?

Thanks, Hannah. So, I met the working group in, I think it was, July. I do appreciate and understand the reasons why the working group has made that recommendation. I'm not in a position to support that just yet. But what I'm keen to do is make sure that the group and the sector itself are supported in general. That’s why I asked the group to refresh their terms of reference, to make the group valued for the future, as a way of trying to meet some of the ambitions that a media institute would be able to do. So, I appreciate the working group’s report, and that recommendation in particular, but I’m not in a position to be able to support that just yet.

Thanks for your honesty on that question.

If I may, Chair, I just want to turn to a question around the workforce because, in the paper that you submitted to the committee, you set out the workforce as being amongst your year 1 priorities. And we know the very real challenges for the workforce right across the cultural sector, but particularly in the creative industries, not least from the advent of AI and the impact that may have. It brings many possibilities, but also brings many challenges as well. I think, with your social partnership hat as well as your culture hat on, I know you’ll be aware that it was debated on the floor of the Trades Union Congress earlier this month, and there was one particular motion by Equity and the Musicians' Union on AI and the creative industries. And whilst I recognise that many of the calls in that fall within reserved areas, particularly around copyrighting and things like that, I was wondering what consideration, perhaps, you’ve given, or the Welsh Government has given, to the tools that we have here in Wales to best support and sustain that sector with the challenges that it will face, whether that’s through how funding is given, and any kind of caveats with that funding, or how we can support institutions in Wales to take an ethical approach to this kind of topic of our time, really.

Thanks, Hannah. I think, obviously, we all understand AI is here, and it’s here in every sector, and the creative industries are included, of course, within that. Hannah talked about the ethical approach to AI. I think that’s the right approach. So, the approach of the workforce partnership council, and the report that they produced on AI in the public sector, setting out the rules where AI should be used and used responsibly, I think that should be reflected across all sectors, and, again, in the creative industries as well. For me, AI is here, and we should look to use AI in the future, but it should be used responsibly, and it should not be used in place of the workforce—so, the workforce use it as a tool. Particularly in the creative industries, I think AI should be used to free up some of those more burdensome tasks perhaps, but allow the creativity to be with the workforce and the creatives there.

How do we look to do that? Well, I think that’s a conversation that we need to have with the sector. So, we need to talk to representatives of the sector, through trade unions, and, indeed, the employers as well. I’m very conscious that that approach is done in social partnership, but I’m also quite clear that lots of these responsibilities fall outside the Welsh Government, so perhaps it’s a more supportive role that we can play in helping shape and influence. And I think that’s probably wider than just at a UK level. I think this is a global problem that is happening, and I’m keen to make sure Wales’s voice is reflected in that. So, conversations on AI will certainly take place and be a focus for the future for the Creative Wales team, and for me as well.

Potentially, there are opportunities for the Welsh Government to use the power of the public purse in terms of the sector and how you take that collaborative approach, as you said, to ensure that they take an ethical approach. I know the Welsh Government has done things before, with remit letters as well, to set out expectations.

Yes, I think all of that could be up for consideration. I’m very clear that my expectation is that AI should be used in an ethical way and a responsible way. The transition to AI should be done with the workforce, in social partnership, and it shouldn’t be in place of the workforce. So, that’s my starting point, and if there are things that the Welsh Government can do further to reiterate that point, then I’m happy to look into that in more detail. But I would like to do that in social partnership—so, with the workforce and with the employers in the industry as well.

Just a couple more questions from me. You talked previously about pursuing a strengthened framework for broadcasting and a greater voice for Wales. Can you update the committee on what you've done on that and any regulatory changes that you would like to see?

Thank you, Hannah, for that. We've had a number of conversations with various people at DCMS, both at ministerial level and particularly at official level. We've had a discussion around the future of tv distribution; we've had discussions around the BBC charter review. We're in the process of drafting our response to the draft terms of reference of the charter review, so that will be a good starting point there. And, as I've said, I've met with a number of officials and Ministers to set out the needs for the future.

On regulatory changes, while I'm clear that the current position isn't where we want it to be, I don't have a view on what regulatory changes there should be just yet, but I'm keen to progress the discussions that we're having around the five devolution pathways, which are set out in the expert panel's report, and have a research project on the panel's report to be progressed so that I can form a view on regulatory changes, but I don't have them just yet. I'll have more to say on that later this term.

I don't want to speak for the Chair, and I'm not a full-time member of the committee, but I'm sure that the committee would appreciate a note on developments when you're at that point.

Hannah, you're right. Yes, that's true. 

As soon as I'm able to say more on that, then of course.

Thank you.

Just one final question from me: is it the view of the Welsh Government that broadcasting and communication powers should be devolved to this place?

So, I think that I set out quite clearly in my written statement the Government's position on broadcasting and where we're up to. I'm very conscious of what I've just said around the five devolution pathways and the expert panel's report. I'm keen to understand the outcome of that research project, and then I'll have more to say on the firm view of the Government of what it should be.

Okay. Thank you for that. The committee—. Well, I certainly am not utterly clear on what the Government's view is, because previously the Government had said quite clearly that the Government was in favour of the devolution of those powers. Has that changed?

So, I'm very conscious that we've got this piece of work, which will be ongoing. I want to see the outcome of that work and then I'll provide the committee with a clear view. I'm very clear that the current situation is not where we want it to be and things do need to change. I'm conscious that we haven't had that work and I want to have that work in front of me to make the—

It's a little like Schrödinger's cat, though, because it seems that the Government's view is both unchanged, because we haven't been told that it has changed, and yet it doesn't seem to have been what it was. I won't press you again, because you've been clear in what you're saying, that you are waiting, but I suppose as a committee we would want to just put that on the record, that it is a little confusing for us. Heledd wanted to come in.

Yes. Just on the BBC charter, obviously in the past it has been the UK Government in terms of that. Has there been any consideration by the Welsh Government in terms of calling for a Wales-specific charter, one for each of the nations? 

I haven't had that conversation yet, but we're in active discussion around taking—. Well, we've responded to the draft terms of reference and we want Wales's views reflected in the charter review. I haven't had a conversation around an individual nation-level-led review. 

Thank you. And if I may, just in terms of other areas within your portfolio, obviously, over the summer, again, we've heard the publishing industry express concern. We know that that's been an area of cuts, there are huge challenges, going forward. I don't need to tell you about the links between the importance of reading, literacy and so on. Can I ask, therefore, what work has taken place to actually work with that industry to ensure that it survives, because a number of publishers have said that they may not survive, and what active discussions are taking place to secure the future of that industry?

Yes. So, I met with the Books Council of Wales just yesterday to discuss the wider publishing sector. I'm aware of the challenges that the sector faces. I think we have supported the sector in the past, particularly through the books council. Just on publishing books, again, we'll have the opportunity to take a delegation to the Frankfurt book show, which is a really fantastic opportunity, and I think it's an opportunity for all publishers to be engaged in that process and be supported through the Welsh Government. We'll continue having conversations with the sector. If there is more to do; if there is more that we can do in the future, if funds become available, then I'm very conscious of the publishing sector, of their cause and their position. So, I'm not in a position to say what that looks like now, but if there are things that we can do in the future, then I would want to try and support them more.

Thank you. But we heard in August that some may not survive a year. So, therefore, were your conversations with the books council looking to understand what the challenges are and if there needs to be an urgent Government intervention?

We have conversations regularly with the books council about challenges and opportunities—not just challenges. And we're always having conversations about what we can do going forward, if we're able to.

Thank you. Mick is going to start us off with questions on another area, and then we will come back to Heledd.

Yes, I'll just come back to Amgueddfa Cymru, an iconic institution within Wales, vitally important in terms of the profile and the cultural identity of Wales, but of course, established by a royal charter. We have these arrangements through charters and so on that give autonomy to these institutions. There are similar issues with the National Library of Wales, and of course others as well. Perhaps I won't go into the sustainability of such historic charters and so on, but obviously there is a partnership between Welsh Government and the museum. So, on the issue of, for example, special events, special exhibitions, and charging for them, one of the overriding Welsh Government policies—and one we all support—is, of course, equality of access to those. You don't want money to be the directive in terms of people being able to participate, particularly in specialist events. I'm wondering how the partnership between Welsh Government and Amgueddfa Cymru is developing along those lines and with what is a genuinely challenging issue in terms of pressures that some of these institutions have—something that we've been discussing and will be discussing later as well.

Thanks, Mick. So, I think the relationship and partnership with all arm's-length bodies—not just Amgueddfa Cymru, but all arm's-length bodies—is one of mutual respect, but it's one of honest and constructive dialogue. It's a partnership at the end of the day. You mentioned the royal charter, and they are at arm's length to the Welsh Government as well, but I think the conversations that we have are very open and honest—it is that partnership approach. I think the amgueddfa shares lots of the same values that the Welsh Government has, particularly on access and accessibility to sites. So, we are having those honest conversations. I expect those honest conversations to carry on in the future, both ways.

Whilst we're talking about charters and institutions with these arrangements, obviously slightly more controversial is the relationship between Cadw and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales. I'm just wondering what the latest is on the review of that.

So, there was a working group set up to look at the relationship between Cadw and the royal commission. They've produced a report, Chair. I've received the report, but I'm just waiting for further advice from officials on the report. I'm going to carefully consider the content and the advice that comes to me. I'll provide the Senedd with a further update on that later this term.

Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you. We are into our final 10 minutes, and I will turn to Heledd.

Thank you. I think we'd really welcome that engagement with you once you've come to a view as well. Obviously, it's not the first review of Cadw and the royal commission either, and I'd be keen to see if this has progressed in some way, in a way that works in terms of the 'Priorities for Culture'.

I do want to touch upon something that came into the public domain that concerned us as a committee back in February, which was the report that was leaked to the journalist Will Hayward of the strictly confidential Welsh Government culture division review. It predates your time as Minister, but it did flag up a number of concerns around the division, and I wondered whether you as Minister are able to confirm—. Because we were refused permission to view that document and review, but have you as Minister seen a copy of that review, had an opportunity to digest it, and also had those reassurances that things have improved and changed within the division since then?

So, I think if you look at the latest staff survey, there have been improvements since that difficult period that you reflect on, so I think there have been clear improvements in that place. All staffing matters, Chair, in the Welsh Government are matters for the Permanent Secretary, not Ministers, and I don't have anything more to say on that matter.

Thank you for that; I understand. Just in terms of one of the things that really struck me—and obviously I don't have the foresight of having seen the full report—one quote was that

'There is no sense of longer-term strategic planning. A widely held view is that Ministers' expectations are not being realistically managed and rather than supporting staff to push back a "yes" approach is adopted with teams being given more, not less work.'

So, obviously, one of the things that we'd be keen to know is: have things changed in that regard? Because the longer term planning is something that is of keen interest, and I'm sure of keen interest to you as well, and the reassurance that things are working to ensure that you're able to do your job.

So, the latest survey has seen improvements in the fields that you refer to, so I think that would give you an indication that things are different. Chair, I'm very conscious that this is a matter for the Permanent Secretary and not me, and I'm just conscious that we don't go into that further.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Lee, yes? 

Part of that question was, 'Have you seen the report?', so that is a question for you, to be fair.

I haven't seen the full report.

You haven’t, okay. Thank you for confirming that. Okay. Did you have any further supplementaries on any other issue?

In terms of any issue? [Laughter.]

What am I unleashing now?

Have you discussed the report with the Permanent Secretary?

I've discussed the report with senior officials.

But not the Permanent Secretary?

Not the Permanent Secretary.

Okay, because it is obviously difficult for Ministers. As you say, there is this protocol that staffing matters are not matters for Ministers, but the delivery of this machine is key for you achieving the programme for government aims, so there's a grey area there. Don't you think it's appropriate for the Minister to see the report and discuss that with the Permanent Secretary? It's encouraging that the latest survey data has improved, but there's still—. And it's not unique to your department; this is a wider issue across the capacity of the Government.

Chair, I've had a discussion with senior officials on the report. The report is a matter for the Permanent Secretary. I'm clear I want my team to do all that they can, and I'm confident that they are doing that, following on from the last survey. I'm confident that we're being able to deliver where we are, and the division is supported in that way.

Thank you. We'll leave that there. We have six minutes left, if there was another topic you wanted to—.

I think, obviously, the broad range of areas covered, we focused a lot of our time on 'Priorities for Culture', but I am conscious that the creative industries is a hugely important section, and Creative Wales. Are there any things that you would like to really showcase to us on how the 'Priorities for Culture' and the other areas beyond that are working in conjunction together? How are you able to reassure us that they're not separate strategies, that they're all interconnected, and that there are measures that illustrate that, that you'll be able to report to us?

So, a direct example of that—. Just to say, I think Creative Wales is a real success of the Welsh Government since its introduction, in all fields. Particularly in film and tv, we’ve seen major spend in the Welsh economy back from the investments that we've made, and we've really put Wales on the map when it comes to in-house filming, but also on-site location filming. We have scenery across Wales that competes with the best in the world in a wide range of that.

A direct example of where there is crossover and work between the creative industries and the more traditional arts is with the memorandum of understanding between Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales. So, I think there is more to do in crossover between sectors and collaboration, but that is part of 'Priorities for Culture', and I expect, going forward, that there will be further progress.

But the creative industries are very much alive in Wales. One of the things, Chair, in the minutes that we have, I just think I should say is the success of the gaming industry in Wales and the investments that we've made. We often talk about comments from people looking at Government support. One of the companies that we've been able to support, and I've had the pleasure of meeting, describes the support of the Welsh Government, excuse the pun, as game-changing, and I think that just needs to be reflected when we consider these things going forward.

Thank you. Heledd has assured me that this is a very brief question.

Yes. Just in terms of cross-governmental working with education, in drama and music, fewer people are taking those subjects at GCSE and A-level, and there are fewer applications from Wales to the royal college of music and drama. Are you having discussions to see how we address this? Because, obviously, in terms of workforce, if people aren't taking these subjects at school, what are the implications for future workforce, and what discussions are taking place?

I have discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Education on a wide variety of topics, and, of course, arts and culture is one of them. The way I see my role in supporting young people having the informed choices that they want is by opening the eyes of young people. The investments that we've made to allow children and young people to go to visit these cultural venues and see first-hand the culture on their doorstep, I hope, will inform them and inspire them to take forward programmes like the ones you describe in school and beyond. I think that's a part that I can play, but also the education Secretary and her team will have to play that part as well.

Thank you. Diolch. Heledd, there are two minutes left. You can ask one more question.

I was just going to ask how it marries with the latest survey results in terms of the decrease in those participating. How do you marry those ambitions if we're not actually seeing that increase, and do you think we need to do more, therefore, if the latest surveys are showing us that there's actually that decrease?

I think in terms of 'Priorities for Culture' and that ambition of opening the eyes of young people and inspiring them, the funding that we've put alongside that is new, and let's see where we get to in the future. I think that will provide positive steps. It's not the only intervention that we make in education. Education supports the national music service as well, and there's quite significant funding that's gone into the national music service from the education department, so we're actively looking at what we can do to support the sector and our rich cultural history in Wales. I've openly said that from the very start. I want more people to access and participate in culture in the way that they want to, when they want to, particularly those who don't access it at the moment in those working-class communities.

I'm actually very grateful that Heledd did ask that final question, because it's something that we as a committee have been very concerned about. We have received so much correspondence about it in the previous months and weeks, so diolch, Heledd, that was really important to have on the record. Thank you so much.

We have used just about all of our time now, so can I thank the Minister and his officials for taking the time to be in front of us this morning?

We've covered an awful lot of topics. There may be some follow-up questions that we will write to you with, if that's all right.

Sure, and we'll follow up on the—

Yes, thank you very much.

Diolch, bawb.